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Bill Opposed the War?

28 Nov 2007 08:35 am

Marc Ambinder flags a press account of Bill Clinton claiming to have been against the invasion of Iraq:

"Even though I approved of Afghanistan and opposed Iraq from the beginning," said Clinton, "I still resent that I was not asked or given the opportunity to support those soldiers." Clinton has long been critical of the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq and called it a "big mistake" as far back as November of 2005.

Marc notes that this is likely to muddy Hillary Clinton's message. Nor does it seem, um, accurate to me. Probably the best example of Bill's contemporaneous thinking on Iraq is his March 18, 2003 Guardian op-ed "Trust Tony's Judgment." Here, Clinton makes it clear that he sees Blair as having spent the past year navigating a wise middle course between regime change hawks in the US and die-hard anti-war types on the continent. Blair, with great finesse, had used threats of force to move the inspections ball down the road until we reached the point of mid-March. Clinton paid no note to the fact that the inspectors were on the ground saying there was no evidence of an Iraqi nuclear program. Indeed, Clinton contributed to some extent to the smokescreen of war by clouding this issue, writing "Saddam has destroyed some missiles but beyond that he has done only what he thinks is necessary to keep the UN divided on the use of force. The really important issues relating to chemical and biological weapons remain unresolved."

Thus the central plank of the argument for war -- that it was necessary to invade in order to halt Saddam's advance nuclear weapons program -- was swept under the rug at just the point where it was becoming clear that this talking point was false. Clinton regret the outbreak of war, but put the blame for it squarely on the shoulders of France, Russia, and Germany, arguing that "if a majority of the security council had adopted the Blair approach, Saddam would have had no room for further evasion and he still might have disarmed without invasion and bloodshed. Now, it appears that force will be used to disarm and depose him." Clinton endorsed the view that Saddam's alleged WMD arsenal was a terrorism threat, "There is, too, as both Britain and America agree, some risk of Saddam using or transferring his weapons to terrorists." Then he concluded:

I wish that Russia and France had supported Blair's resolution. Then, Hans Blix and his inspectors would have been given more time and supprt for their work. But that's not where we are. Blair is in a position not of his own making, because Iraq and other nations were unwilling to follow the logic of 1441.

In the post-cold war world, America and Britain have been in tough positions before: in 1998, when others wanted to lift sanctions on Iraq and we said no; in 1999 when we went into Kosovo to stop ethnic cleansing. In each case, there were voices of dissent. But the British-American partnership and the progress of the world were preserved. Now in another difficult spot, Prime Minister Blair will have to do what he believes to be right. I trust him to do that and hope that Labor MPs and the British people will too.

What Blair believed was right was, of course, invading Iraq. Obviously, it's possible that Clinton wrote a March 18 op-ed urging blind faith in Tony Blair's leadership, then when Blair invaded Iraq a few days later was shocked to see him make such a mistake, but then decided he better not say anything about the wisdom of the invasion until years later, but it's not very plausible. For all intents and purposes, Clinton's public statements on the Iraq issue (like those of Colin Powell and Tony Blair) were part of the push to round up "moderate" support for the war. I remember this stuff. I was one of the millions of Americans who thought that, sure, George W. Bush must be a maniac but if Bill and Hillary Clinton and Colin Powell and Madeleine Albright (and other Clinton-era officials like Ken Pollack) and Joe Biden and so on and so forth think it's a good idea, maybe I should have some more confidence. Obviously, that was a stupid, stupid mistake. But I find it really offensive that people who abused the trust of citizens who admired them by selling us on this mess now want to turn around and do it again by pretending that never happened.

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Comments (95)

Matt, please fix your link. It's busted.

Thanks!

Op-ed by Bill Clinton, 'Trust Tony's judgment', The Guardian UK, 3/18/03

Matt, seriously, fix the link; your post is broken.

Bill has finally jumped the shark.

More wisdom from Bill Clinton's op-ed:

"Because military action probably will require only a few days, they believe the world community will quickly unite on rebuilding Iraq as soon as Saddam is deposed."

Stipulating 'military action probably will require only a few days'? Prescient.
"But if we leave Iraq with chemical and biological weapons, after 12 years of defiance, there is a considerable risk that one day these weapons will fall into the wrong hands and put many more lives at risk than will be lost in overthrowing Saddam."

Saddam could give unicorns to his rivals! OH NOES!

Matthew discovers evidence that Bill Clinton might be a bald-faced liar.

Gee, I'm shocked.

Matt--

The majority of the text in your post above comes in as one big link to a non-existent page. Please fix it.

Thanks.

So is the claim now that the US should not use sticks to modify the behavior of dictatorships? Or that we should bluff?

I don't think so. Neither Clinton should have trusted that Bush was sincere about the UN process, or that Blair would be able to prevail on him, but their position on threats to force inspections was correct.

The Missing Link in Matt's post is to the Center for 20/20 Hindsight and Partisan Revisionist History.

Of course nearly everyone with access to "intelligence" supported the invasion. Most Americans had supported the idea of using US troops to overthrow Saddam since 1991, at times by margins of nearly 3:1.

Of course responsibility for the failure of "peaceful means" (just don't tell the relatives of the million-odd Iraqis killed by UN sanctions) rests with Chirac & Co., but most of all with Saddam Hussein.

Attempting to understand important historical events involving three Presidential administrations and a half-dozen Congresses with both parties in charge as if it was a high school football rivalry with all the Bad Guys on one side and all the Good Guys on the other produces predictably idiotic results.

Time to grow up and face the fact that in 2003 the choices were between Bad and Worse, as they are likely to be again at other times in the future. Those who imagine that everything is perfectly obvious, and only crooks or fools could possibly disagree with them on what to do are the kinds of folks who got us into the mess we're in now.

Mr. Powell--

The 'time to grow up' is now? I thought the time
to do that was pre-invasion, 2002! I told everyone I knew that an Iraqi invasion would make The West Bank look like kids's stuff--of course no one listened. The real 'intelligence' of what to expect was ignored BY ALL.

The invasion was SADDAM'S Fault? Please. He sent the 130,000 US troops to the Iraqi border, then ordered them in? It's like blaming the rape victim for the rape ("She didn't say 'No' convincingly enough!"). Remember, despite Bush's denials several times over the last few years, Saddam DID let the UN Inspectors in, and gave them free access to anything they wanted in Dec. 2002. It was Fearless Leader who ordered them out in March, 2003. Saddam said he had no WMD. Bush said he did. Who lied? How was that Saddam's fault?

There were plenty of GOOD choices to take in 2003--including simply maintenance of the Iraqi status quo. Unfortunately, in the 'rush to judgment' back then, they were not even mentioned, much less considered.

Call Bill and Hillary liars or whatever, but at least they are no longer defending the indefensable invasion of Iraq.

with all the Bad Guys on one side and all the Good Guys on the other produces predictably idiotic results.

In fact, no one makes anything like that claim. The standard Crazy Netroots claim is that the Good Guys were on the sidelines and that the two teams had some weird, effectively collusive relationship. Also, if you're going to do the work of constructing an argument for the express purpose of knocking it down, go the distance and actually knock it down. Don't just assert that it's down.

Wow, Robert. You're brilliant. With no one else left to blame, responsibility for this debacle is now laid at the feet of those who sincerely opposed the war from the start.

Forgive me, but your post here is just asinine over and over again. Not everyone with access to intelligence supported the invasion. Not by a long shot. Hans Blix, as we now know definitively, had access to the only accurate intelligence out there, and he opposed the invasion. The Chirac and Schroeder governments had access to all the horseshit that the Bush administration was peddling, and both opposed the invasion.

UN sanctions certainly did not kill a "million-odd Iraqis." The fact that your quantification is completely absurd is actually beside the point. The Hussein dictatorship is solely responsible for the misery inflicted on the Iraqi people under the UN sanctions regime. It continues to amaze me that people like you allow your irrational hatred of the UN to excuse the brutality of the Hussein dictatorship.

Ugh. I could go on, but let's break it down for you in simple terms. The Good Guys are the ones who understand that war is a lie. The Bad Guys are the ones who pretend this isn't true.

Twit makes the point I've made repeatedly.

And Robert references the "Center for 20/20 Hindsight" while apparantly forgetting what actually occurred.

Rather ironic to say the least.

He's got to be getting used to those "I could just kill you, dumbass" looks from Hillary. Who, btw, has apparently undergone a makeover:

Hillary Joins Borg Collective
http://www.crystalair.com/content.php?id=63200711017

You'll have a hard time persuading me that Bill Clinton thought invading Iraq was a good idea considering that if he really believed that, he could have done it himself.

As for the issue of how many Iraqis died due to sanctions, look, I think liberals (myself included) need to be more honest and acknowledge, with the benefit of hindsight, that the sanctions policy regarding Iraq was not a good one. Of course Saddam bears the ultimate responsibility, and I hope he suffers eternal punishment for it, but we still can't pretend that sanctions just sort of happened to Iraq without our involvement. The fact is, sanctions gutted that country and we really didn't get a whole lot of positive results in exchange.

When it comes to future Saddams, we need to realize that sanctions are not a one-size-fits-all alternative to war. Where we can apply them smartly and actually pressure the ruling elite, like we did in Libya, we can achieve some good. Where that's not possible, look, I don't want to be responsible for starving a population in hopes of inducing a revolt any more than I want to be responsible for an invasion. We can look for better answers.

>Time to grow up and face the fact that in 2003 the choices were between Bad and Worse,

And we chose Worst.

To trust Tony Blair, we'd have needed to trust this:

Tony Blair has admitted for the first time that he ignored the pleas of his aides and ministers to deter President Bush from waging war on Iraq because he believed that America was doing the right thing. And he has acknowledged that he turned down a last-ditch offer from Mr Bush to pull Britain out of the conflict.

... It was never a “bargaining chip” for him and he was never looking for a way out, he told David Aaronovitch, of The Times, in interviews for The Blair Years. “It was what I believed in, and I still do believe it,” he said.

Great find, Matt, w/ the Bill Clinton op-ed. I'd forgotten about that.

Bill, Bill, Bill. I guess it depends what the meaning of "support" is.....

The key sophistry here, which I find fascinating, is that Russia and France, by refusing a new UN deadline resolution--which was a 60-day ultimatum, total disarmament or military invasion, as I recall the US and UK proposing (demanding) of our allies--were somehow hindering the ongoing inspection effort. This even though Hans Blix was on the phone to the State Department daily, begging for new GPS coordinates to search for (remember Libby: Some GPS crosshair in Syria! Or was it Lebanon?). Of course, any rational observer had to wonder: What would constitute invasion-forefending disarmament if there were no unicorns in Iraq?

March of Folly, indeed. Robert Powell, you musta got lost on your way through here; anyway--get lost. Life's too short. Your views are utterly discredited as buffoonery of the Hoover Institution sort--I suggest you head over there. www.hoover.org. You know--Victor Davis Hanson, Dinesh D'Souza, and other assorted xenophobes, bigots, and war mongers. Good luck with that.

Robert Powell makes a stab at insightful:

Those who imagine that everything is perfectly obvious, and only crooks or fools could possibly disagree with them on what to do are the kinds of folks who got us into the mess we're in now.

Hmm. By any chance do you mean the crooks and fools who "defend genocidal totalitarians"? Should I go bac and count the number of times you yourself have insisted how "perfectly obvious" (those might even have been your exact words) the situation with Iraq had become?

Anyway, arguably, the Bush administration is who got us into the mess we're in now. (I say arguably because you're clearly enough of a nutter to blame prior presidents first, in the name of proper "historical analysis.") Perhaps Bush & Co. imagined that only crooks and fools could possibly disagree with them. Since they were the ones doing the fooling, and being crooked, and knew it, this would certainly be self-delusional and hypocritical, but as these appears to be Bush's main personality traits we'll grant it's possible.

But the people against the war from the beginning did not imagine that "only crooks and fools could possibly disagree with them." They may do so now, when the outcome of the war is so manifestly clear. In 2003 they knew, of course, there were many crooks and fools to be had; but there could have been no war without majority support from the American public. And there's a difference between being a fool and being a dupe. The public was duped about WMDs and Al-Qaeda being in bed with Saddam. That's a pardonable offense; it reflects poorly on the fabulists in charge, not on the dupes.

Your big problem is you assume, blithely, that this war was undertaken in good faith. It obviously was not, and that frankly makes all the difference as to its justness. Just & worthy wars aren't based on mendacity. Your bigger problem, in my estimation, is that you won't admit to yourself that you were one of the dupes. It makes you feel stupid, so you bend over backwards to put lipstick on the pig and go on about how "repsonsible" people did their best with what they had. A responsible war is one that is executed competently and above-board. You know this is a pig, you've said as much, but you can't stand having been wrong, and you're desperate to salvage something of a failed enterprise, out of pride, and out of a confused idea about "vital national interests."

I'm sure you'd deny all that, but it is how you come across.

The fact is, sanctions gutted that country and we really didn't get a whole lot of positive results in exchange.

The sanctions made Saddam get rid of any WMDs he might have had, no?

Re Robert Powell's comment "Of course nearly everyone with access to "intelligence" supported the invasion. "
---------------
This , of course, is BULLSHIT.

The Ranking Democrat on the Senate Intelligence Committee , Bob Graham, stated in 2002 that he had seen no intelligence that showed Saddam was an imminent threat. Senator Bob Graham described the dishonest way in which the Bush Administration presented Iraq intelligence to the American people --see http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/darkside/interviews/graham.html

The above interview notes that General Tommy Franks , the COMMANDER OF CENTCOM -- you do know what CENTCCOM is, Mr Powell?? -- told Senator Graham that the Europeans had better intelligence on Iraq.

In late 2002, German Foreign Minister Joschka Fischer tried to warn the American people that the case for war was not that convincing. In response, Michael Kelly -- editor here at the Atlantic -- ignored Mr Fischer's facts and launched a vicious personal attack in the Washington Post , arguing that Mr Fischer had not been all that far from being a terrorist himself in his youth. See http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A59725-2003Feb11¬Found=true

REAL Americans would have give Bob Graham and Joschka Fischer a fair hearing , would have done the work later done by the Iraq Commission, and would have avoided an unnecessary war which has killed over 3700 of our soldiers.

But George Bush and Dick Cheney were never interested in a fair discussion of the national interest -- they were running a con game on the American People in order to grab the Iraqi oil deposits for their patrons.

And half of the Democrats are whores for billionaire supporters of Israel --who saw Saddam as a threat to Israel -- and the other half are cowardly curs who remained silent and put their political survival above the lives of our soldiers. Because they had seen what billionaire S Daniel Abraham did to Howard Dean in Iowa -- and what AIPAC did to Cynthia McKinney.

All of the above information was easily available
to you if you had looked, Mr Powell. As is the IRaq Commission Report of how the intelligence process was abused.

Given that, why should we not conclude that you are trying to deceive us with false claims -- that you are lying through your teeth??

The sanctions made Saddam get rid of any WMDs he might have had, no?

Years previously, though, and we were still sanctioning the crap out of him!

The fantastic book Imperial Life in the Emerald City amply documents the sad state Iraq was in by the time we invaded, as a result of the debilitating sanctions. The responsibility lies with Saddam, and I'm not saying otherwise, but it was completely predictable that he'd do the things he did in order to shore up his failing country and maintain his hold on power. There are lessons to be learned.

Thanks to Steve for recognizing reality, and pointing to lessons we really need to learn. If sanctions are part of our future relationship with Iran, and I think they are, we really need to improve our performance.

FWIW, given that membership in The In Crowd here seems to require an oath to avoid factual history:

--The UN itself, through UNICEF and other agencies, determined that perhaps a million Iraqis were killed by sanctions. Assistant Secretary General Denis Halliday, when he resigned rather than continue to administer them, described them as "a program that meets the legal definition of genocide."

--Iraq was, under the terms of the ceasefire and subsequent Resolutions, obliged to "disarm in a transparent and pro-active way"--the only way we could have any confidence in inspections. It wasn't up to us to prove the negative by playing hide-and-seek in a totalitarian police state. Hans Blix may have been against the invasion, but that wasn't his call. What was, was confirming whether or not Iraq was cooperating. He was unequivocal that they were not. The plain fact is that up until almost the last minute Saddam Hussein could have pulled the plug on the invasion by simply meeting the obligations as Blix had drawn him a diagram and held his hand for doing.

--Bernard Kouchner, among others, has made the point that Chirac and Schroeder (both now tossed out in disgrace) in fact materially helped make the invasion inevitable by breaking ranks after UNSCR 1441. If "final opportunity" means "one more chance ad infinitum", the UN becomes the League of Nations II. I think that's a big problem since I don't hate the UN, but would like it to function in a way that makes war less, rather than more, likely.

Between 1991 and 2003 we got an awful lot of innocent people killed trying to avoid taking responsibility for deposing Saddam Hussein--far more in fact than have died since the invasion. We know the down side of what we did in 2003. We don't know the down side of what we didn't do, but I can see no likely scenario that wouldn't have been even worse. The people with the best information at the time made the best of a lousy situation. Those who are more interested in their self-image as morally superior paragons of virtue and prescience should get some more facts. This was not, and is not, a black and white deal.

Again, Mr Powell, that's bullshit.

Here's the statement issued by Nancy Pelosi in October 2002 opposing the invasion of Iraq:
http://www.house.gov/pelosi/prIraqResolution100302.htm

A few quotes:

"The decision of whether to send our brave men and women in uniform to war is the most solemn and serious choice we face as Members of Congress. Before putting our young people in harm’s way, we must be certain there is no other recourse. "

"As the ranking Democrat on the House Select Committee on Intelligence, I have seen no evidence or intelligence that suggests that Iraq indeed poses an imminent threat to our nation. If the Administration has that information, they have not shared it with the Congress. "

Re Robert Powell's comment "We know the down side of what we did in 2003. We don't know the down side of what we didn't do, but I can see no likely scenario that wouldn't have been even worse."
-------------
Again, bullshit.

Saddam Hussein was 66 YEARS OLD in 2002. He would have died in a few years, his two sons would have killed each other quarreling over who sat where at the dinner table, and the people of Iraq would have settled their affairs.

Instead they are saddled with a government doomed to be eternally illegitimate because it was imposed by a foreign aggressor looking to steal the oil of Iraq via a puppet government. Just as it has stolen the wealth of Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, UAE, Iran and is eying the Caspian Sea.

Oh, and 3700 US soldiers would still be alive and thousands more would not be crippled for life. And millions more Americans would not die early due to lack of medical care -- the result of $2 Trillion being stolen from the Medicare Trust Fund for this little foreign adventure.

Atrios's link to another story coming out about the same time as his autobiography jogged something in my memory. In "My Life," Clinton writes about Vietnam in a way that's kind of revealing. Namely, in Clinton's view the mainstream eventually regretted Vietnam, but never trusted the people who were opposed to the war from the beginning. (Regret that I can't provide a quote.) When I read it, it seemed like the M*A*S*H trick; it was nominally about the old war but really about the new one. And I always read Clinton's public pronouncements on Iraq through that lens, as positions adopted not because they were the ones he thought wisest, but the ones that would avoid people thinking of him as some dirty effin' hippie. That is, of course, until the war got so bad that everyone opposed it, not just the dirty hippies.

Which isn't to say that I'm the first or only person to forecast Clinton's evolution from war-supporter to -lamenter as occurring precisely as public sentiment took the same path, but I would like partial credit nonetheless.

Every single person who supported the invasion, be they Thomas Friedman or David Remnick or George Bush or Andrew Sullivan (or Robert Powell), did so for purely emotional reasons. Each then looked later for 'rationalizations' or 'logic' to support their position.

(Caveat: Probably a few supported the invasion for fiscal reasons too...)

It's ironic that it's the Iraq invasion supporters who accuse war opponents of letting emotion dictate their thinking, because actually precisely the opposite is the case.

Although many war opponents were probably just acting on emotion, it was the millions of war opponents who were the only group to NOT let emotion overtake their common-sense good judgment. It was war opponents who realized that the threat was not worth the risk, that the timing was terrible, that the enmity we'd accrue was not worthwhile, that it would very likely leave us in an awful quagmire, that it would cause hundreds of thousands of deaths and millions of refugees, and that it would cost hundreds of billions of dollars.

Powell's a dead-ender, don't worry about him. He believes each and every word that squirts out of a neo-con's mouth.

Yes, Bill Clinton supported everything the congress and Bush did to pressure Saddam to allow inspectors back on the ground in Iraq. I also remember him, along with many other democrats, cry foul when Bush ordered the inspectors out of Iraq and moved toward invasion.

You can argue giving Bush the power to invade and trusting him to do it as a last resort was foolish as well as vaguely supporting the invasion.

I don't agree it's the latter. Trusting Bush so soon after 9-11 is a forgivable mistake. As I remember, Joe Wilson also supported the Iraq war resolution, up until Bush snookered the world on keeping his word.

It is also worth noting that in 1998, Clinton tried to start a war with Iraq himself, signing the Iraq Liberation Act committing the US to regime change, and sending Madeline Albright and Sandy Burger around the country to advocate a war (they were memorably shouted down by some very admirable students at Ohio State).

It is pathetic to see this couple, who have been uber-hawks ever since Vietnam, suddenly pretend that they had the courage to stand up and oppose a war and suffer the political consequences of doing so.

Saddam Hussein was 66 YEARS OLD in 2002. He would have died in a few years, his two sons would have killed each other quarreling over who sat where at the dinner table, and the people of Iraq would have settled their affairs.

I don't know what the life expectancy is of a 66-year old man, but I'd wager it's a lot longer than a few years. The idea that his sons and all the other would-be dictators would have all cancelled each other out is, obviously, just wishing for a pony.

But more significantly, the point is that all the post-invasion problems didn't just happen because our tanks ran over a few fire hydrants. They happened because, as a result of the sanctions, Iran's economy and infrastructure had been gutted by 2003. If all we had to rebuild was stuff that was wrecked in the war, it would have been an easy job. But when you have a non-functioning economy where millions of Iraqis live on nothing more than being paid a salary by Saddam to do nothing, you have a big problem if suddenly the spigot gets turned off.

Mr. Williams--
If you take the trouble to read what I wrote rather than launching into insults you won't need to make yourself look silly as well as boorish. "Nearly everyone" doesn't mean there aren't opposition quotes to be found, but the votes in Congress on the issue, in 1990, 1998, 2002, are a matter of public record. We're talking big majorities here, matching those in the public for the entire period in spite of statements like those you've chosen, which were hardly suppressed.

There is no reason anyone should take your prognostications about what might have transpired in Iraq after a 2003 climb-down seriously. Given the stakes, it's hardly surprising that this kind of "analysis" is seriously damaging to the candidates who are cursed by association with it.

In evaluating the facts about how we got to where we are, and what the appropriate lessons are, we need a lot less sanctimonious preaching and nutbag conspiracy theories from hyperactive partisans with adolescent fantasies about how important foreign policy decisions are made, and more careful examination of the available facts. It doesn't hurt to do so with a modicrum of civility. Most Americans don't identify themselves as either Democrats OR Republicans, and even among those who do the ones who can't tell the difference between political opponents and actual enemies are a thankfully small, if noisy, minority.

Robert Powell:

We don't know the down side of what we didn't do, but I can see no likely scenario that wouldn't have been even worse.

Please back this claim up. Your entire doctrine of preemptive war hinges on it.

Arguments by assertion such as this are precisely why preemptive war is viewed by most reasonable people as a dangerous and childish way to approach foreign affairs. Wars are to be carried out as a last resort, in self-defense or in defense of an ally, if they're to have any hope of being considered legitimate, or of being productive. The first Gulf war reached a conclusion that was at the time deemed acceptable by all major parties. At that point the matter of open warfare was closed, let alone all-out invasion, overthrow and occupation. It may well have been "right" to continue with deposing Saddam then. Unfortunately, that does not make it right for a different president, with different allies, under different circumstances, more than a decade later. Especially when the threat had considerably diminished by then.

A preemptive war can only work if it has the support of majority of our allies at a minimum, and preferably the support of the entire region most concerned (the Middle East). After all, Saddam was more of a threat to his neighbors than he was to the United States. Outside of that, whatever the supposed moral merits of the case (all of which were severely undermined by the Bush administration's deliberate mendacity) it's a dead letter, and political solutions must continue to be pursued.

In evaluating the facts about how we got to where we are, and what the appropriate lessons are, we need a lot less sanctimonious preaching and nutbag conspiracy theories from hyperactive partisans with adolescent fantasies about how important foreign policy decisions are made, and more careful examination of the available facts. It doesn't hurt to do so with a modicrum of civility.

What a jackass.

I don't believe every word out of ANYONE'S mouth, 'hog. I'm looking for the evidence.

And I think it's high time The Neocons were retired to the Scapegoat Hall of Shame to join the Welfare Queens, Jewish/Wall Street World Conspirators, and the Commies in the State Department. This stuff is too serious for color-coding.

Great job by the Razorbacks...

Re Mr Powell's comment "It doesn't hurt to do so with a modicrum of civility."
----------
My "civility" disappeared about 2000 deaths ago. I had a friend killed in Vietnam and I still remember his mother sobbing at his funeral. My son recently had to register for the draft.

Lying shitheads who caused the needless deaths of 3700 soldiers in their pursuit of money --or their loyalty to a foreign country -- deserve much worst than to be voted out of office or fired from their jobs as "opinionmakers".

Mr Powell's bland preface "In evaluating the facts about how we got to where we are" is hilarious.

His comments ,in my opinion, show a resolute refusal to address "how we got to where we are".


I think pre-emptive war is a lousy idea. I think trying to bring one that had dragged on for twelve years with a comprehensively violated ceasefire agreement, significant indications of more trouble ahead, and appalling civilian casualties, was the best of bad available choices in 2003.

And I think anyone who finds a call for civility and factual argument rather than name-calling and sanctimonious bloviating grounds for more yet more name-calling, is unlikely to have much credibility.

I think the crux of it, Mr. Powell, is that it's one thing to explain why you concurred with the ill-starred majority who supported invading Iraq--but to defend the consequences with high sanctimony, at this point, puts you on par with the Japanese soldiers they discovered in the caves of Okinawa in the 1970s....

Having lost a good friend in this war, I'm not feeling particularly civil either. He left a young son and daughter; they'll grow up never having known him, and for what. Since I'm a parent, too, the idea stabs my heart. Bush avoided the draft, was derelict in the Guard, and so utterly failed to live up to his father's bona fides. Everything you need to know about this pitiful man is contained in his "I'm pumped" comment as he watched his tanks roll across the Iraqi desert. Maybe if he'd had a son in the service, instead of two bubble-headed daughters, his attitude would've been less befitting of a video game.

I'm okay with being in the minority if I believe the facts are on my side. But I would just point out that this started with Clinton's position, which has been pretty much the same as mine for the whole time; and that not one of the three leading Democrats would pledge to have US troops out of Iraq by 2013. Mine is not as small a minority as all that, as Democrats will learn to their sorrow if they persist in imagining that most people remember history as poorly as some posting here.

Bill-
I've lost friends, and had a friend lose a son, in this mess too. Another will be in a wheelchair for the rest of his life due to the Khobar Towers bombing which was part of the war before a lot of people seemed to notice it. Every single one of them thought it was because they were doing their duty in pursuit of vital US interests as determined by a bi-partisan government that made the best decisions they knew how to make on this subject. I think they were right.

If I believed what you do, I'd be angry too. But I don't find the evidence for this explanation of what's been going on in the Persian Gulf for all these years. I'm angry as hell about the mistakes that have made victory more difficult and costly than it should have been, but I don't see either the evidence, or any good reason, to tell my friends that their sacrifices were the result of some kind of scam pulled off by a few guys in the White House. It's just not true.

Re Mr Powell's comment "I think anyone who finds a call for civility and factual argument"
----------
You're posturing. You're not interested in factual argument.

You bleat about "finding out how we got here". I and others have presented massive amounts of documented evidence in this forum of how corrupt interests pushed this war. And you IGNORE IT.

The Israeli Newsjournal Haaretz -- and Jewish reporter Thoman Friedman at the NY Times -- noted how the Iraq War would not have occurred if not for the massive propaganda campaign by the Neocons. Why don't you complain to them about "colorcoding"?

In my opinion, your refusal to address the evidence -- your bland dismissals -- are the epitome of self-serving Washingtonian deceit.

I think pre-emptive war is a lousy idea. I think trying to bring one that had dragged on for twelve years with a comprehensively violated ceasefire agreement, significant indications of more trouble ahead, and appalling civilian casualties, was the best of bad available choices in 2003.

You still haven't backed this claim up.

The idea that "neocon" is some kind of anti-semitic code on par with "welfare queens" is such rubbish. The PNAC is real, Cheney's cabal within the administration is real.

None of this changes the fact that Don Williams sure does blame an awful lot of stuff on Israeli billionaires, but still.

I see, so you lost a friend at Khobar Towers, and the appropriate reaction, i.e. "Why the fuck is the American military propping up a Saudi kleptocracy?" -- you know, the reason 9/11 happened -- was ducked in favor "Of course you know, DIS means war!"

Oh yeah: cheap oil for Americans, blah blah blah. We know how many iniquities THAT justifies. Europe pays four times as much, and somehow they get by. Hmm, maybe controlling Saudi Arabia, and Iraq, is about profit for a few certain entities, and not about "vital U.S. interests."

But every soldier dies because he believes he's protecting "vital U.S. interests." Ain't that the beauty of it.

We were never at war with Eastasia! We were always at war with Eastasia! It was never a good idea! It was the only thing to do!

Shorter Robert Powell (And William Jefferson Clinton).

There exists, now rather worse for the wear, a bipartisan Congressional majority in favor of "American exceptionalism". This majority was pretty lopsided among the folks with "access to inteligence". There.

How "all inteligence agencies could be so wrong"? Simple -- being wrong is part of their job. Some call it "information warfare".

Inteligence agencies have many roles: gathering factual information, and gathering, concocting if needed, dirt on our opponents. And doing some seriously criminal stuff from time to time, a.k.a. operations. Relying on them to be some kind of national concience is folhardy or convenient, dependent on your goals.

As far as "diarming in transparent and proactive way", this is a very charming concept, allowing to raise bar all the way to the Moon -- which we did. Plus, trustworthy sources tell that Saddam had bad breadth and wrote some totally atrocious novels. And killed almost as many of his "own people" as our friends in Guatemala.

Here is the tricky part: why Maya Indians do not count as "their own people", but Kurds do? The answer was provided by Joe Lieberman: we should trust the American ability to make a moral judgment. So we judged Saddam one way, Guatemalan juntas in a different way, and this is our, American prorogative: we can judge, the others, do not. There.

Becasuse WE define what is true and moral, we cannot be false or immoral. There.

Those are simple principles, and indeed, majority was in agreement, until things stopped making sense. We wage a war for oil, the price triples. We support guys that like us, except that they hate us. We install our bastards, but the bastards are friendly with Iran. So we now support their enemies too. We make a desert to call it peace. Except that Romans who did it first were bringing loot home, we spend 10 billions each month (with weaker dollar, expect 10 billion Euros each month). So now it dawned on the public that while we can freely define what is true and what is moral, shit remains shit. As a famous American statesman put it, "we are in deep doo-doo".

No problem. All informed people supported the war but we did not. Since we decide what is true and what is false, can't we be a wee bit retroactive?

I'm out of time on this tonight--I'm a number of timezones east of you people. But if you've taken my advice and read Goldsmith's finding on the Resolutions; Blix's report; the Duelfer report;the relevant statements by the many Democrats who voted for the invasions; and looked at any data at all on what was going on in and around Iraq between 1991 and 2003, you'd see all the "back up" anyone should need. Wars don't just end on their own, especially not when there are ongoing combat operations and hundreds of thousands of casualties.

Jews tended to support the invasion because they tend to pay more attention to what's going on in the Middle East than other groups. But Jews didn't make Saddam invade Iran, then Kuwait, or violate the ceasefire and subsequent sanctions, or develop wmd's and kill tens of thousands of people with them. Various pieces of speculative journalism are not evidence. Look at the source materials I've listed above, and I'll look at what you've posted if I can find it. The key word here is "evidence", not opinion.

Wars don't just end on their own, especially not when there are ongoing combat operations and hundreds of thousands of casualties.

Yes, the situation in Iraq was awful during the 1990s. The lesson to be learned is not, sanctions don't work, therefore we must always invade and occupy. As it turns out, that has merely created additional hundreds of thousands of casualties, except now they are the moral responsibility of tax-paying Americans, instead of Saddam Hussein.

And I'm sorry, we were not "at war" with Saddam Hussein during the 1990s, except in the rhetorically convenient sense for those who supported "Operation Iraqi Freedom." The answer to the tense stand-off and failing sanctions of the nineties was not military escalation, and certainly not invasion and occupation. And CERTAINLY not by George W. Bush of all cretinous people.

The lessons to be learned go back pretty far actually. They're embedded in the European & American imperialism of the early 20th century. you don't correct the mistakes of an imperialist past with more imperialism.

Hard to believe we're back to this point of the debate again, but whatever. I don't really recall former President and dis-barred Bill Clinton being a factor in the debate previous to the war. That isn't unusual, as I don't remember Bush 41, RR or Jimmy Carter saying too much about it either.

The germane point of the debate at this stage was that the current President lied about Saddam's capabilities and intentions. It is just that simple. Once the lies were exposed on the WMD issues, especially the nuclear one, previous to the invasion, then one was left to believe the lies or the facts. The majority chose to believe the lies which were duly reported by the MSM, and no amount of moral relativity can spare them the consequences of their poor judgement in believing what they saw on TV.

Ultimately what happened was the majority of the people were too lazy to dig out the facts, when they were in fact published, hearing what they wished to hear and believing what they wished to believe. As I recall the American people were still very much looking for vengence for 911 and the administration provided the linkage of the two, which was exposed as well, and understood by many who like myself had given the Czech report some credence earlier on.

The same unwillingness to look at the facts objectively lasts through to today, with many preferring to believe that if we just wish hard enough history will vindicate the American aggression, which is the long way of saying the end justified the means. It did not.

Bill Clinton saying anything at this point in time is just a political calculation and posturing for 2008, period. For those of us 15 percenters in 2002 he was a none actor leading up to the war, and remains so today.

The crux of the war debate then, as now, is an unwillingness on the part of the American people to accept the facts, facts that prove that collectively, they were and are still wrong.

I'm busy at the moment as well. I'll look up the past sources I've noted before and post the info here later tonight. I'll also try to look at the sources Powell cited above, although I may not be able to get to all of them tonight.

Jews tended to support the invasion because they tend to pay more attention to what's going on in the Middle East than other groups.

But alas, a higher percentage of American Jews opposed the invasion of Iraq than was true for the American public at large. And this statistic has held true every time a poll has been taken since.

In fact, this disparity holds true even for non-Democratic Jews, demonstrating that it's not just a function of Jews tending to vote Democratic.

So while, as a Jew, I appreciate the compliment, you're just flat wrong on this. An awful lot of people who pay close attention to the Middle East sure thought this was going to be a heck of a mess.

Mind you, it was Bill Kristol who said "There's been a certain amount of pop sociology in America ... that the Shia can't get along with the Sunni and the Shia in Iraq just want to establish some kind of Islamic fundamentalist regime. There's almost no evidence of that at all. Iraq's always been very secular." So we must always remember that being Jewish doesn't necessarily mean that you understand the first thing about the Middle East!

If Bill Clinton opposed the Iraq war he would have convinced his wife to not sign on to the deal. It is very convenient for Bill Clinton to say this now. Where was he in trying to stop the war before it started. Silent, silent, silent. The code pink ladies tried to stop Hillary, but she wouldn't listen. Obviously Bill didn't try to stop Hillary.

Frankly, I'm not surprised at any of the bullshit that is being thrown around in so many quarters these days. A lot of people got caught with their pants down. But actually, it is orders of magnitude worse than getting caught with your pants down because -- well, hmmmm, how should I phrase this? Because we, uh...WE GOT A MILLION FUCKING IRAQIS KILLED!

Holy shit! I'm not surprised if somebody sacrifices their first-born son to escape being held responsible for a criminal war of aggression, a crime against humanity, that resulted in over 1 million dead and 2-3 million driven out of their own country as refugees. Who wants to be held responsible for killing more Iraqis than Saddam Hussein?

On the scale of moral offenses from 1-10, the illegal Iraq War is an 11.

EZSmirkss said, "The germane point of the debate at this stage was that the current President lied about Saddam's capabilities and intentions. It is just that simple. Once the lies were exposed on the WMD issues, especially the nuclear one, previous to the invasion, then one was left to believe the lies or the facts. The majority chose to believe the lies which were duly reported by the MSM, and no amount of moral relativity can spare them the consequences of their poor judgement"


EXACTLY.

Assholes like this deluded ideologue and propagandist, Robert Powell, are either straight-up maliciously sociopathic fiends or are experiencing off-the-charts cognitive dissonance.

They literally cannot allow themselves to face the truth because to do so would be to look at themselves in the mirror and realize that they got more than 1,000,000 human beings killed. No one who is both honest and moral could live with that.

Powell will surely tell himself that the above is nothing more than moral posturing. That's called being in denial. It ain't posturing if its true, Bobby.

If I were a theist, I would be utterly convinced that people like Bobby Powell were headed straight for Hell. I hope you like the smell of sulfur, scum.

The obvious riposte is that trusting "people with access to the intelligence" gets you into all kinds of scrapes; I remember hearing the same argument for getting into Vietnam.

The further obvious point is that preemptive war (i.e. unilateral aggression) should have a particularly high standard of evidence. Yes, the situation in Iraq 5 years back was bad, but there was no obvious moment of crisis that forced action.

Powell provides a fine summary of the thinking that got us into the war, and sure, plenty of people of good will but limited perspicacity supported it. I'm not sure we want to be guided by those people in the future.

I wish that Russia and France had supported Blair's resolution. Then, Hans Blix and his inspectors would have been given more time and supprt for their work.
I'm not sure if that is just naive or jaw-droppingly stupid on Bill's part. It was obvious that Bush was going into Iraq by the time the AUMF was rammed through. Once everything was in place to go, they weren't going to let the complete lack of any justifications stop them from getting the war they wanted. Geez Bill, I thought you were smarter than that.

Robert Powell, source one is Bill Moyer's documentary re how the News Media helped Bush sell the Iraq War in a misleading fashion to America. See the transcript at http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/btw/transcript1.html

If you have access, you might view the actual documentary -- that way, you can see your "color-coded" Neocons in action.

Well, Robert Powell, you chose "worse." Or, to riff on Indiana Jones and the holy grail, "You chose poorly."

That said, as to anybody who wants to try to halfway defend Big Bill, don't forget he had Iraq invasion plans drafted way back in 1998.

I know Al Gore and Jimmy Carter were against the war because I HEARD them express opposition; I HEARD Bill and Hillary express support for Bush's war, the invasion and the occupation. I did NOT hear Hillary express opposition until 2006, Should I have my hearing checked?

The Neocons were retired to the Scapegoat Hall of Shame to join the Welfare Queens, Jewish/Wall Street World Conspirators, and the Commies in the State Department.
While it makes a nice sounding little sound bite, the problem of the latter examples' non-existance, and the former's ability to entangle the US in an illegal war of choice, and the attendant occupation, makes for a silly, and nonsensical, argument.

Today, I READ Hillary wants Colin Powell as one of her ambassadors abroad:

http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/11/27/clinton-to-colin-powell-be-my-diplomat/

“I won’t even wait until I’m inaugurated, but as soon as I’m elected I’m going to be asking distinguished Americans of both parties — people like Colin Powell, for example, and others — who can represent our country well, including someone I know very well,” Mrs. Clinton said, according to a Fox News Web report.

I know it's Fox, but she can always issue a denial. Probably advocated by Bill the Iraq war "opponent" or Michael O'Hanlon, one of Hillary's security experts.

Powell, I believe, was also against the war from the beginning and expressed his opposition in the same ways the Clintons did.

“I won’t even wait until I’m inaugurated, but as soon as I’m elected I’m going to be asking distinguished Americans of both parties — people like Colin Powell, for example, and others — who can represent our country well
And Hillary supporters wonder why so many people, such as myself, do not trust her to make the right decisions...

I am sickened by this statement of Hillary's, "As soon as I’m elected I’m going to be asking distinguished Americans of both parties — people like Colin Powell, for example, and others — who can represent our country well". (h/t to della Rovere)

That does it for me. Hillary? You're fucking fired.

Up until I heard this yesterday, I was a reluctant but certain vote for Hillary if she secured the nomination. But, because of that statement, I am now a certain Al Gore write-in voter. I will not vote for anyone who would even consider for one second actually rewarding the war crimes of an abject liar like Colin Powell with a place in their Administration.

This is a very serious gaffe by Clinton. Her ONLY defense on Iraq is that she was lied to. Well, guess what? Colin Powell was probably the single most influential liar of them all. If she maintains that she was gulled into supporting this historic disaster by the lies of people like Colin Powell, yet she would still ask this war criminal to represent her Administration, then the only conclusion is that she doesn't feel she was lied to. But if she wasn't lied to, then her only defense for her horrifically bad judgment on the Iraq War flies out the window.

Because we, uh...WE GOT A MILLION FUCKING IRAQIS KILLED!

Stop being ridiculous.

Bill,

The answer to the tense stand-off and failing sanctions of the nineties was not military escalation, and certainly not invasion and occupation.

Really? What was the answer, then? A continuation of the sanctions? A continuation of the policy that was described by its primary adminstrator as "a programme that satisfies the definition of genocide?"

There was no "answer." There was only a choice between various responses, none of which were attractive. Invasion and occupation may well be the least-bad of those alternatives.

Mr. Williams--
if you think a Bill Moyers tv program is evidence, and is more likely to provide an accurate, unbiased view of the actual decision-making on Iraq over the last twenty years than the considered statements and findings of the responsible officials in and out of governments, the stats assembled by the UN and non-partisan NGO's, National Intelligence Estimates, the language of the relevant SC, Congressional, and Parliamentary Resolutions, objective reports like those of Duelfer, Blix, Hutton, and Silberman-Robb commissions, DoD stats, etc--then I think we don't have a common definition of evidence.

I appreciate your efforts, and will give it a look. But check your dictionary for what "evidence" really consists of.

Bush certainly tried to "sell" the invasion, and made a hash of it. But by any reasonable definition, the Iraq War started when he was still a n'er do well baseball team owner in Texas. The idea that this whole episode can be understood by resort to bogus statistics and drive-by partisan op-ed's as regurgitated in many of the comments on this thread is a disservice to rational discourse on a vital topic. It is very fashionable to parrot all sorts of exotic conspiracy theories based on gossip, rumor, innuendo, and the presumed ability of people to read the minds of officials like Clinton, Biden, Bush, or Cheney, but it's destructive of any meaningful insight into what happened, or what we should do next. A sure marker for a weak/factually impoverished argument is the amount of insulting boorishness it contains. See above.

Re Robert Powell's comment "if you think a Bill Moyers tv program is evidence, and is more likely to provide an accurate, unbiased view of the actual decision-making on Iraq "
------------
The issue is (a) what statements were made to the American people in the debate leading up to the Iraq invasion (b) which of those statements were subsequently shown to be false (c) what is the likelihood that those false statements were made knowingly versus being mistakes and (d) what motivated the statements

You seem to think the "actual decision-making on Iraq" was a rational, detached analysis by philosopher kings working for the common good. I think it was more in the nature of some rich men buying services and exerting pressure. I let the readers judge who makes the better case.

Not being Attorney General Gonzales, I obviously do not have warrentless wiretaps of discussions made behind closed doors. But if I point out a pile of steaming dog shit, I think it's fair to argue a dog passed by.

Does anyone remember that on August 26, 2002, Dick Cheney said publicly that he knew where Iraq's wmd's were located?

Now, to me, THAT'S pretty much the only bald-faced lie in this matter.
Or... did Cheney find those wmd's right where he said they were and I missed the news?

Think about this:
Bush pulled the weapons inspectors OUT of Iraq, when they still hadn't located any wmd's, and they were pulled so they won't be hurt, when Bush bombed Iraq, because Iraq was "in possession" of wmd's, that the weapons inspectors "somehow" weren't finding in Iraq.

Now, does that make sense to anyone except a Loyal Bushie Clinton Hater?

Powell, why do you deny the U.S. her agency?

This dirtbag Powell throws around insults like "juvenile" and the like, then gets upset when somebody calls him a fucking lying piece of shit.

Tough noogies, asswipe.

You are a fucking lying piece of shit. You make up your own "facts", your own revisionist "history", make random assertions and assume everybody will bow down before your bullshit.

Take a flying leap up your own ass.

Matt: "I was one of the millions of Americans who thought that, sure, George W. Bush must be a maniac but if Bill and Hillary Clinton and Colin Powell and Madeleine Albright (and other Clinton-era officials like Ken Pollack) and Joe Biden and so on and so forth think it's a good idea, maybe I should have some more confidence. Obviously, that was a stupid, stupid mistake. But I find it really offensive that people who abused the trust of citizens who admired them by selling us on this mess now want to turn around and do it again by pretending that never happened."

As long as you admit you were seriously stupid to believe a member of the state, your mea culpa can be accepted.

Now prove you're still not seriously stupid by getting a clue as to how the state is actually run. Meaning: the US policies in the ME are caused by the oil companies, war profiteers and Zionist thugs - and therefore until those people are rooted out of the government, nothing will change. And exactly how do you intend to root those people out - vote for Obama?

Please. That is once again being seriously stupid.

"There is no doubt that Saddam Hussein is close to completing a nuclear program."
-Dick Cheney

"There is no doubt that Saddam and Al Queda have a close working relationship."
-Dick Cheney

These are lies.

Powell says they don't matter, whatever. I guess it's totally irrelevant when the VP of the United States tells lies to help sell a war.

Powell also says we were inevitably dragged into war, kicking and screaming, we just had no other choice. It was either invade Iraq or 'do nothing.'

When will the false dichotomies end?

There were several other choices, all of which most definitely would have been better than lighting a trillion dollars on fire, breaking the U.S. army, and watching north of 100,000 Iraqis die.

As for 'interests,' interests = economic imperialism.

Did Americans want to go to war for economic imperialism or because they were convinced of Cheney's lies?

To date, the average American has received no benefit from this war, although, so far, it's been a boon to plutocrats who run construction companies and military contractors.

Whose interest was it in again?

These are lies.

How do you know?

There were several other choices, all of which most definitely would have been better

What other choices would those be? Continuation of the sanctions that had already killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqis, and maintained Saddam in power?

Mixner, stuff your shit right up your ass along with Powell's.

There were no WMDs. There was no connection with Al Qaeda. Period. And neither of those were the actual reasons for the war in any event.

The sanctions were useless. All that had to be done was end the sanctions and allow the UN inspectors to complete their work, certify Saddam as not having WMDs, then install the monitoring program which would have guaranteed he would never have WMDs.

Then, if somebody really wanted to get rid of Saddam, bribe somebody to kill his ass - and his kids.

But this was never the intent of the neocons, and the war profiteers, and the oil companies, and the Zionist thugs. The intent all along was to destabilize the country, seize the oil, and make the Israelis happy - and screw the US taxpayer and the Iraqi citizens. And the Israelis would only have been happy had we immediately turned around and invaded Iran.

How do I know Cheney was lying when he said 'no doubt' about nukes and Al Queda connections? Because there were HUGE doubts, being debated all over the government about these assertions.

Cheney said 'there is no doubt...' Of course there was "doubt." Cheney lied. Period.

As for 'other choices' besides 'outright invasion' and 'do nothing?' Hack just gave you one, another would've been to 'smarten' sanctions, another would've been to wait 6 months and see what Blix came up with, I'm sure there's more...

That said, I'm a bit uncomfortable with Hack's 'zionist' assertions, I think there were plenty of non-Zionist interests pushing us forward into Iraq, Cheney and Rumsfeld and Bush, the men with the real power, didn't need further cajoling.

The definition of a lie is saying something that you know to be untrue. Cheney, like most of the leaders of the US in 2002, "knew" what they believed. And they clearly believed that the weight of evidence was behind what they said, because it was. This has been confirmed by everyone from Dick Gephardt and Bob Kerry to Sandy Berger and Wes Clark.

Using hindsight, we can find dissenting voices in the intelligence community on one detail or the next. This is evidence, if more were needed, of how little understood the role of intelligence is in the real world. But there is no doubt at all about what the consensus view was. When you're meeting on a near-daily basis with the Director of Central Intelligence, and he's telling you that Iraqi possession of wmd's is a "slam-dunk" based on every source we've got, including the most logical analysis of Iraqi behavior, very few leaders would decide on such matters to go with the few guys in the back room with quibbles. For Christ's sake, analysis of Iraqi documents after the fall of Baghdad tell us that Iraqi generals, and maybe Saddam himself, thought they had wmd's. And Dick Cheney somehow knew better? Be serious.

It is impossible to get a remotely accurate view of how we got to where we are if we ignore everything that happened between 1990 and 2003. The war that started between the US and Iraq did not end in 1991, as is made obvious by even a cursory review of the relevant documents, and the facts about what was happening on the ground in Iraq. And a word of advice, 'hog--you will waste your time reading any of Hack's posts for anything other than spittle-flecked, largely information-free ranting wholly derivative of rumors and gossip from the fringe. That's what the scroll bar is for.

Of course, as someone mostly against the war, I was certainly annoyed at the French reaction in 2003. Their UN veto seemed to be the blank check Bush co. wanted. Rather than providing useful dissent, they chose to be French. I imagine Bush wasn't exactly working well with them, but nonetheless more effort from them would have been appreciated, aside from basic competence from Bush.

What other choices would those be? Continuation of the sanctions that had already killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqis, and maintained Saddam in power?

I'm not a fan of the sanctions regime, as I've explained upthread, but the fact is that absent Bush's hard-on to take out Saddam, 2002 wouldn't have been a decision point for Iraq at all.

If you accept that Iraq should have been about our 10th priority in the post-9/11 world, then the question of what we should have done about our 10th priority seems less relevant. No, there weren't a lot of good answers at that point, but fortunately we had 9 other priorities to focus on.

Based on the way things unfolded, it now looks pretty easy to have chosen to just continue kicking the can down the road. That's the problem with history--knowing what we know now, all the choices look easy. If we're really going to learn from the experience, which I think everyone should agree is a good idea, we have to deal with how things looked THEN.

We knew then that the credibility of the UN was on the line, and by extension that of the US--"final opportunity?". We knew that a climb-down would have blown any new sanctions ideas right out of the water--France, Russia, China, and others were champing at the bit to get back to business as usual with Iraq.

That business, given Iraq's resources, meant with virtual certainty that it was just a matter of time before Iraq was re-armed with wmd's, and in a nuclear arms race with Iran that would have prompted its spread to Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and perhaps others. The Duelfer Report contains hard evidence to support that assumption. That would also mean that Iraq would once again be in a position to continue its consistent goal of dominating the Persian Gulf region, with all that implied. With Iraq having already dragged us into a war there, then comprehensively violated the ceasefire agreement, it's hard to see how any President could sit back and watch this transpire.

We knew that as the regime was a charter member of the state supporters of terrorism club, and that it was in fact a terrorist government, future prospects in this area were for more of the same. And we knew that the prospects for any kind of internal regime change were virtually nil, and moreover to the extent Saddam passed from the scene his heirs represented even more of a terrorist threat, if possible, than he did.

Post 9/11, allowing this was unthinkable. This was not, of course, because anyone seriously thought, much less said, that Saddam did the WTC (otherwise, why the near-unanimous support for the invasion of Afghanistan?), but because our security sensitivities as a nation were fundamentally transformed that day.

Re Robert Powell's comment "Cheney, like most of the leaders of the US in 2002, "knew" what they believed. And they clearly believed that the weight of evidence was behind what they said, because it was. This has been confirmed by everyone from Dick Gephardt and Bob Kerry to Sandy Berger and Wes Clark."
----------
1) If you are going to lie this country into an unnecessary, bloody war then you obviously don't acknowledge that you are lying.

But leaders engaged in a honest search for how to advance the NATIONAL INTEREST --vice pushing the pre-determined selfish agendas of some rich patrons -- don't cherry-pick the facts. They don't ignore evidence. Because they know it's important to base decisions on the truth. A honest leader can lay out the major facts and can explain why he made his decision.

2) Bush, by contrast, has used the Secret Service as a Praetorian Guard to ensure that he NEVER has to explain his actions. The history of his entire Administration is one long tale of oppressive control to ensure that Bush has never had to face a confrontational questioner.

That's not the mark of a honest leader willing to defend his judgement -- that's the mark of a fearful whore constantly afraid of being publicly exposed.

3) Similarly, the Republican Chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, Pat Roberts, GAVE HIS WORD in 2004 that that Committee would investigate and report upon the WHite House's use and abuse of prewar intelligence on Iraq. That it would compare public statements made by the Administration in 2002 with what was being told to the White House by the Intelligence Community.

Today, almost 4 YEARS After that promise was made, that Phase II report has STILL not been released.

In January of this year, the ranking Democrat on the Senate Intelligence Committee, Jay Rockefeller, publicly charged Dick Cheney with twisting Senator Roberts' arm to ensure that investigation did not proceed. See
http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2007/1/25/215721.shtml?s=ic

3) Similarly, even today -- 6 years after Sept 11 -- the American people have still not been told why Sept 11 occurred. Bush put out his Big Lie after Sept 11 -- "they hate our freedom " and the war on Al Qaeda has been kneecapped because of that ruinous myth.

Bin Laden clearly told the US TV Networks in 1998 why Al Qaeda was going to war with the USA. Bush couldn't tell America the truth because his rich patrons could not stand to be exposed -- could not allow US citizens to see how the past self-serving and vicious acts of Big Oil, Big Defense, and the Israel Lobby in the Middle East had provoked an attack that killed thousands of our citizens and cost us over $1 Trillion.

Al Qaeda could not hide from us without the support of the 1 billion Muslims in the Islamic world. But that world knows that Bin Laden's grievances -- THEIR grievances -- are legitimate even if Bin Laden's methods are not.

They know Bush is a bald-faced liar. So they will not join with the US in suppressing the Al Qaeda terrorists -- because they see no difference between George Bush and Al Qaeda. Both thrive on lies.

4) But Bush could never have supported his Big Lies alone. In fact, they are not HIS Big Lies -- they are the Big Lies of the wealthy interests which control US politics. That is why the 911 Commission REFUSED to discuss WHY the attack occurred -- Commission consultant and Harvard Professor Ernest May admitted as much six months after the Commission report was released, noting that the Commission felt the issue was too politically hot to address. So much for the promises the Commission members made to the families of 911 victims.

5) Pressure from rich patrons also explains why Democratic politicans have been so cowardly in challenging Bush --although, in fairness, Republicans used their control of both Houses of Congresses to block any meaningful oversight of the White House until recently.

6) Out of self-interest, the tightly owned, tightly controlled and federally regulated TV networks have also greatly enabled Bush's lying -- as the Bill Moyers documentary I cited above so clearly shows.

1) The American people should have been given the facts by now of how Bush conned them with false claims.

But the Congress has failed in its duty of oversight.

The owners of the Washington Post and New York Times evidently feel that "journalism" consists of having your reporters bury their noses up the rectums of White House officials and faithfully copying down whatever lies they deign to tell you.

2) So the truth has had to come from other sources.

A classified memo from 10 Downing Street -- leaked to the British Press -- shows how the head of MI6 saw the situation in July 2002:

"a) "C reported on his recent talks in Washington. There was a perceptible shift in attitude. Military action was now seen as inevitable. Bush wanted to remove Saddam, through military action, justified by the conjunction
of terrorism and WMD. But the intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy"

b) "It seemed clear that Bush had made up his mind to take military action, even if the timing was not yet decided. But the case was thin. Saddam was not threatening his neighbours, and his WMD capability was less than that of Libya, North Korea or Iran. We should work up a plan for an ultimatum to Saddam to allow back in the UN weapons inspectors. This would also help
with the legal justification for the use of force."

Ref: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article387374.ece

1) Another source has been the Knight Ridder --now McClatchly Inc --reporters. At the time when Washington DC was being led down the primrose path by Judith Miller's bullshit in the New York Times, the Knight Ridder reporters --writing for small newspapers around the country -- were getting the truth from sources within the intelligence community. Bill Moyers interviews those reporters in his documentary cited above -- and they recount how they knew the Bush Administration were feeding the American people a crock of shit.

2) In Sept 2004, the American Journalism Review made a similar point:

" "When the New York Times apologized to readers May 26 for not being "more aggressive"
in examining the administration's decision to invade Iraq, editors couldn't help but
give a nod to a less-vaunted news organization that had been beating the Times on
the story for some time: Knight Ridder's Washington bureau.

The contrast in coverage was stark at times. On September 8, 2002, the Times proclaimed
in a front-page headline, "U.S. Says Hussein Intensified Quest for A-Bomb Parts."
Knight Ridder had two days earlier proclaimed, "Lack of hard evidence of Iraqi weapons worries top U.S. officials." Knight Ridder continued with headlines like "Troubling
questions over justification for war in Iraq" and "Failure to find weapons in Iraq
leads to intelligence scrutiny," even as most other major media outlets sang a tune
more in line with the Bush administration. "

Ref: http://www.ajr.org/article_printable.asp?id=3725

In the past several years, the reporters at Knight Ridder -- now McClatchly -- have beat the living shit out of the White House. A small sample:

1) Bush and his appointees told America that Hussein and Al Qaeda were linked at same time
CIA was telling him they were not.
REf: http://www.mcclatchydc.com/reports/intelligence/story/16338.html

2) Bush misused the national security classification process by approving a selective, misleading one-sided leak of classified info to bolster the case for war
Ref: http://www.mcclatchydc.com/reports/intelligence/story/13788.html

3) How Bush and his appointees misled American over Iraq WMD threat and link to Al Qaeda:
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/reports/intelligence/story/12764.html

4) How Bush and his appointees then subsequently tried to mislead America over the history of the Iraq invasion and use of prewar intelligence:
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/reports/intelligence/story/13054.html


The idea that Cheney was the tail and the 'intelligence community' was the dog is ridiculous on it's face and can be dismissed w/o argument.

It's pretty clear Powell you'll say and believe anything to make yourself feel better for supporting a policy that 10s of millions of people everywhere knew was an unnecessary, immoral, strategic disaster.

From where I'm sitting, the person acting like a child is you.

You know, I remember (as probably most of you) the run-up like it was yesterday.

The WMD case was so obviously bullshit. Everyone tried so hard and twisted this way and that way, but there was never any there there, it was 'where's the beef' the entire time.

Anyone (and there were millions and millions of us) with even a tiny sense of a bullshit meter could tell that we had found nothing.

So we were left with all these philosophical tautologies about 'not knowing what we don't know' and plays on emotion and fear of the big bad Ayrab and circuitous logic driven by emotion.

Even Bush felt this way (which was the source of Tenet's 'slam dunk' comment). Bush wanted to invade Iraq, but his initial instinct was like 'c'mon, this WMD case isn't made.'

"[France's] UN veto seemed to be the blank check Bush co. wanted. Rather than providing useful dissent, they chose to be French."

There were basicly three positions France could have taken:

1) Support immediate military action against Iraq. France rejected this because it looked like inspections could succeed.

2) Support a conditional authorization for war. Although France didn't say so, I suspect that the primary reason France opposed this approach is that the French didn't trust Bush. A conditional resolution would mean that the United States would be authorized to go to war as soon as Bush decided that the conditions in specified in the authorization had been met. The French insisted that the Security Council, rather than George Bush, make that decision.

3) Support a continuation of inspections, with various changes to make them more effective. This is what France did.

I don't think there is any way France could have prevented the war. The one good thing that came out of France's efforts is that the U.N. Security Council's credibility is not being tarnished by events in Iraq, as it would be if the Council had authorized the invasion.

Yeah, it's a shame we don't have Saddam Hussein still sitting on the fulcrum of the world economy doing business with Fina/Elf/Total and Rosneft, and competing with Iran in a nuclear arms race. If only we'd accepted the fact that Iraq didn't really have to meet the terms of the ceasefire after invading Kuwait, or any of the UNSC Resolutions. Who needs the UN, or any international norms of conduct? Why can't we all just (sob) get along?

I've lost friends, and have friends who've lost children in this war. I take a backseat to no one in my contempt for parts of the decision-making process that have made victory more difficult and expensive to achieve. But we didn't start this war, and damned well need to accept the fact that we must, finally, bring it to a reasonable conclusion. We sustain as a nation 40,000 fatal casualties every year in traffic accidents, many of them alcohol related, and no one seems to give a shit. But when we lose 4,000 volunteer soldiers in four years of fighting in a crucial geostrategic region in pursuit of vital national interests, some people become hysterical and demand that our only option is surrender. This, dear friends, is folly.

Re Powell's comment "If only we'd accepted the fact that Iraq didn't really have to meet the terms of the ceasefire after invading Kuwait, or any of the UNSC Resolutions. Who needs the UN, or any international norms of conduct? Why can't we all just (sob) get along?"
---------------
Suggestion for Powell: If you're going to argue by appeal to international law, it's best if you don't also defend a President who's broken the most fundamental tenet of the UN Charter: That a state may only start a war when attacked or when approved by the UN Security Council.

"Yeah, it's a shame we don't have Saddam Hussein still sitting on the fulcrum of the world economy doing business with Fina/Elf/Total and Rosneft, and competing with Iran in a nuclear arms race."

Yes, I completely agree that it was for economic imperialism, too bad that wasn't what our leaders SAID.

"If only we'd accepted the fact that Iraq didn't really have to meet the terms of the ceasefire after invading Kuwait, or any of the UNSC Resolutions. Who needs the UN, or any international norms of conduct? Why can't we all just (sob) get along?"

False dichotomy/strawman alert!

"We sustain as a nation 40,000 fatal casualties every year in traffic accidents, many of them alcohol related, and no one seems to give a shit. But when we lose 4,000 volunteer soldiers in four years of fighting in a crucial geostrategic region in pursuit of vital national interests, some people become hysterical and demand that our only option is surrender."

Right. Who cares also about 1/4 million dead Iraqis, 3 million Iraqi refugees, and a trillion bucks of the U.S. Treasury down the drain.

We had to stop those damn French from getting oil contracts!

My work here is done.

Mr. Williams--
Thanks for the links. In my view they are a mixed bag including some factual material on ways administration figures oversold various "justifications", which I've always seen as a mistake, if more evidence of their zeal to win support for what they believed to be the best policy than lying; and some that is simply unreliable partisan opinion. A good example of the latter is the stuff related to the Plame case, which so many people swore was a Vast Conspiracy, but when the facts were revealed, the actual "leak" turned out to be simply careless gossip by a guy who hated the neocons and opposed the invasion.

The principal reasons I supported the invasion was that I think functional international law requires an effective enforcement mechanism for opposing wars of aggression, genocide, and the proliferation/use of wmd's, all of which Iraq engaged in. If you check Lord Goldsmith's finding for Parliament, you'll see in clear language and unassailable reasoning exactly how the invasion met the standards of the UN Charter. Force WAS authorized, and nowhere does the Charter say it has to be re-authorized sixteen or seventeen times. Moreover, we didn't "start" the war, and once democracies like the US and Britain are in a war, the appropriate authority for how to conduct and conclude it comes from their own elected governments. The UN is not, thank God, the World Government.

'hog--it's inconsistent, to say the least, to shed crocodile tears about the (grossly inflated in your accounting) Iraqi casualties resulting from the invasion; and ignore the several millions killed by the Iraqi regime, and the God only knows how many more it would likely have killed in the future if left to its own devices. Some "work".

Good one Powell, 2 wrongs DO make a right. Excellent.

Actually, my favorite of all your retarded and pathetic rationales for going to war was this notion of 'rescuing the reputation of the UN.'

I can see John Bolton, Richard Perle, Dick Cheney and Elliot Abrams right now sitting around a table:

'Gee boys, we really gotta prop up the UN. Because you know, it's our philosophy that American power is best expressed through international institutions. Nothing is more important to us than int'l. bodies, let's send a ton of soldiers to die and burn a bunch of cash, it's for the UN, it's worth it!'

Is mmathog suggesting that "international law" exclude any considerations of justice?

I'm personally opposed to the death penalty, but it's clear that anything purporting to be "law" requires enforcement. That seems to me particularly true in the case of the gravest international crimes of the sort Iraq was responsible for in the past, and bode well to continue in the future.

Any remotely rational accounting on causalties demonstrates that Iraqis are miles ahead of where they were under Saddam without even factoring in the likely future toll of his continued misrule.

I don't think it makes much difference to people like Tony Blair or Bill Clinton what guys like Bolton, Perle, et al think. It certainly doesn't to me. The fact that the UN needs support by actual deed rather than lip service is a lot more important than Cheneyesque views about it even if those folks were really running things to the extent that you imagine.

"it's clear that anything purporting to be "law" requires enforcement."

False dichotomy, ever get tired of them? Guess not.

"Any remotely rational accounting on causalties demonstrates that Iraqis are miles ahead of where they were under Saddam without even factoring in the likely future toll of his continued misrule."

Any remotely rational accounting demonstrates that the Earth is flat. Why, you merely have to go outside with your binoculars.

Saying it doesn't make it so.

At the end of the day Powell, I'm the only one dumb enough to continue arguing with you. You have some deep emotional need to ignore any facts or logic that undermines the case for your precious wasteful war.

I don't see it as much of an argument, 'hog. You are complaining about the war, which is obviously justified on multiple grounds. I'm trying to separate historical facts that might enable us to make accurate judgements about what really happened in hopes of learning at least some useful lessons, from rote partisan cant. I cite facts about Iraq, you reply that the world looks flat through binoculars. That's a fact, but it doesn't tell us much about Iraq beyond the extent to which Deaniac talking points have been swallowed down on faith by a lot of people.

It is not a "false dichotomy" to point out the need for a viable enforcement mechanism for laws, even the hazy "international law" that was under discussion in relation to the invasion of Iraq.

The casualty figures are inexact, but there's a lot of good efforts at totaling them up available on the web. The best figures in terms of methodology and objectivity, rounded up to allow for some validity in the more obviously inflated totals, show civilian deaths attributable to the invasion in the neighborhood of a hundred thousand. Of course, this includes a lot of people who were killed by Iraqi and foreign terrorists, as well as those in the latter group we killed on purpose who are only "civilians" because the war legally ended with the fall of Baghdad.

Saddam's total was indisputably in the millions. It's possible to find some media quotes from Iraqis who say things are worse now, but these are almost exclusively from individual Sunni who no doubt did have it better under Saddam. You won't find many Kurds or Shia who say that seriously, as opposed to when prompted,and they comprise 80% of the population. Most of the Iraqis I've talked to consider the question "was it better under Saddam" to be something of an insulting joke that only ignorant foreigners would take seriously.


Comments closed December 12, 2007.

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