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Did Paul Berman Tell Us So?

12 Nov 2007 02:46 pm

In the midst of an argument with Ian Buruma, liberal hawk extraordinaire Paul Berman tries to convince us that he actually called Iraq correctly, and has merely been magnanimous in not pointing that out:

I approved on principle the overthrow of Saddam. I never did approve of Bush's way of going about it. In the run-up to the war, I became, on practical grounds, ever more fearful that, in his blindness to liberal principles, Bush was leading us over a cliff. [...] It is true and it is a matter of satisfaction to me that, in the years since then, I have not made a career of saying "I told you so."

Here's what Berman was actually writing in February 2003:

In my own judgment, Fischer and his fellow thinkers in Europe and even in the United States are making a mistake in failing to press for a harder line against Iraq—a harder line that might bring about Saddam's collapse more or less peacefully or, if need be, not peacefully. It should be obvious that, in the Arab world, fascist and Nazi-like movements—political tendencies that call for random mass murder in the name of paranoid and apocalyptic ideas—have gotten completely out of hand. In the last 20 years, Baathist and Islamist movements—the two branches of what ought to be regarded as Muslim fascism—have killed millions of people and might well kill many more, and not just in the Muslim countries, as we have reason to know. A war against Muslim fascism ought to be seen as a continuation of the long struggle against Nazism and fascism in Europe—a continuation of the same decent and necessary cause that people like Fischer have always wanted to support, even if they have not always known how to do so in a sensible way.

He was worried about Bush's failure to embrace liberalism, but it wasn't a worry that this meant the war would go badly, it was a worry that Bush wasn't being as rhetorically persuasive as he should have been:

Maybe Fischer is not convinced because the Bush administration has presented a series of side arguments about weapons, U.N. resolutions, and dark terrorist conspiracies and has failed to present the main argument, which is the single huge argument that has always sustained the Western alliance. This argument is the one about totalitarianism. It is the argument that says: The totalitarians are dangerous to themselves and to us, and we had better fight them. Fight wisely, of course, which the New Left notoriously managed not to do long ago, but fight. Why can't Bush make that argument? I won't speculate. But he could change. He gave up drinking long ago. Let him give up his arrogance, small-mindedness, and aversion to large and idealistic ideas today. It might help.

And here he was in January 2004 when many people still thought the war was going well:

What was the reason for the war in Iraq? Sept. 11 was the reason. At least to my mind it was. Sept. 11 showed that totalitarianism in its modern Muslim version was not going to stop at slaughtering millions of Muslims, and hundreds of Israelis, and attacking the Indian government, and blowing up American embassies. The totalitarian manias were rising, and the United States itself was now in danger. A lot of people wanted to respond, as any mayor would do, by rounding up a single Bad Guy, Osama.

But Sept. 11 did not come from a single Bad Guy—it was a product of the larger totalitarian wave, and the only proper response was to comprehend the size and depth of that larger wave, and find ways to begin rolling it back, militarily and otherwise—mostly otherwise. To roll it back for our own sake, and everyone else's sake, Muslims' especially. Iraq, with its somewhat antique variation of the Muslim totalitarian idea, was merely a place to begin, after Afghanistan, with its more modern variation.

In short, Berman was wrong. The reason he hasn't made a career of telling us "I told you so" is that, in this instance at least, he didn't tell us so. But now he's trying to tell us that he did tell us so. But all he told us was that had Bush employed more Berman-style rhetoric then maybe more of Berman's friends would, like Berman, have wrongly deciding that an invasion of Iraq was a good idea.

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Comments (64)

Who the hell is Paul Berman?

Are we supposed to know about him? If not, why bring him up? No need to waste time dwelling on the folly of idiots.

'I approve on principle the invasion of every dictatorship in the world and its replacement by a fair and just democratic society. If that doesn't happen to go well, well, that's not my fault for wishing it; such minor details are for mere mortals to work out. But my wishing for these fantastic goals makes me more moral and smarter than you pro-dictatorship boot-lickers.'

G: He's one of the central figures in George Packer's book, and a poster boy for the "we need to smack some muslims upside the head, even if they're not the right muuslims" school of liberal internationalism.

It's like the Bible Code. First you have to number the words and then look for the points of convergence. Only then will you see his prescience. Gee, you didn't expect him to write it literally did you?

Berman's refusal to say "I told you so" about things he didn't actually tell us is, as he now notes, a matter of satisfaction to him. And to gauge by his response to Buruma, Berman has become rather self-satisfied about the degree of his self-satisfaction. In which case we may well have found the Infinitely Recursive Liberal Hawk Self-Satisfaction Vortex that some theoretical physicists first hypothesized in mid-2003.

Gregor:

As Alan said, he was a prominent liberal intellectual arguing for the Iraq war along with Ignatieff, for example. And, yes, he does argue that muslims are fascists and has been doing so since 9/11.

Not only is Paul Berman far from being in any psition to tell us he told us so, it is WAY past time for Paul Berman to Shut. The. Fuck. Up.

Ditto gregor.

Every time I read the kind of pundit-frass of which Berman's linked text is a shining example, however, I feel deep pangs of regret at having not chosen op-ed commentary as a career path. It seems to pay remarakably well and requires no intellectual effort.

I would officially like to nominate Michael Berube for the Nobel Prize in Liberal Hawk Psychophysics. And I do mean Psychophysics.

I have no idea who Paul Berman is either, frankly, but I do think the quotes above are very interesting, rather exquisite examples of the vapid bullshit that passes for "analysis" among the neocons and their cohorts. So much hand-wringing about how deep and pervasive and complex and multi-faceted the terrible "totalitarian wave" of "Islamo-fascism" is.

Of course, if they had bothered to take half a minute to actually look at the problem, they might have noticed that all those big red flags seem to line up, pointing over and over again to the exact same place:

www.asecondlookatthesaudis.com

And no, that wouldn't be Iraq, or Iran, or Syria (as if the folks in AIPAC and PNAC even care what the correct answer is.)

Actually, Paul Berman is an example of the worse kind of fascist -- someone who promotes wars which inevitably kill civilians on a large scale and who does so --Not out of necessity -- but because it satisfies his ego or ,perhaps, because it satisfies the need of some patron.

What kind of fascism feels that it can casually take our sons and send them to die on the far side of the world --NOT in defense of the USA --but in defense of some rich man's investment? Do you see Paul Berman calling for the overthrow of Musharraf? Of the emir of Kuwait?

We should stomp on Paul Berman hard because it is people like him -- and William Kristol -- that convince the rest of the world that the USA is ruled by murderous psychopaths.

That the only way mankind will be able to live in peace and freedom is to destroy the USA. It is people like Paul Berman who bring death and destruction down on our doorsteps -- by making the terrorists look good by comparison.

Because even the worse of the Terrorists are , in their eyes, simply trying to defend their people and their land. Paul Berman , by contrast, promotes mass murder simply because he can.

Why can't Bush make that argument? I won't speculate. But he could change. He gave up drinking long ago. Let him give up his arrogance, small-mindedness, and aversion to large and idealistic ideas today. It might help.

Yes, as long as Bush completely changes his essential base personality this just might work!

Any idiot should be able to see that a course of action that depends on the actor defying every single impulse of character and personality that he's developed and demonstrated over the last 50 plus years is, well, perhaps not too likely to succeed...but apparently Paul Berman is not just any idiot.

Berman shows some degree of gall, but I think Michael Ledeen takes the cake with his claim that he, too, opposed the Iraq war and thus has no reason to feel guilty.

For the record, when Ledeen isn't advocating bombing Iran and sending US troops into that country on cross-border raids, he also maintains that he opposes military confrontation with Iran.

Nifty.

But Sept. 11 did not come from a single Bad Guy—it was a product of the larger totalitarian wave, and the only proper response was to comprehend the size and depth of that larger wave, and find ways to begin rolling it back, militarily and otherwise—mostly otherwise. To roll it back for our own sake, and everyone else's sake, Muslims' especially. Iraq, with its somewhat antique variation of the Muslim totalitarian idea, was merely a place to begin, after Afghanistan, with its more modern variation.

And that's exactly the sort of grand, undisciplined, irrational, ahistorical and illogical thinking which gets you into major wars that have no rational purpose. All these words are nothing more than some sort of fancy restating of the ancient "fear of the menace of the other", thinking which has no place in foreign policy. And a liberal ought to know better.

a poster boy for the "we need to smack some muslims upside the head, even if they're not the right muuslims" school of liberal internationalism.

Otherwise known as the "Suck.On.This." school.

not that i could cite a single example for everyone, but my pre-9/11 recollection of paul berman was that he was a pretty sharp thinker and you could read what he had to say without cringing.

either i was completely wrong or he, like too many, became massively unhinged by 9/11.

regardless, for a guy who prides himself on being an honest intellectual, this is shockingly deceitful, and i will certainly never again read a thing he writes. (one thing the bush years have been good for: learning who never to bother reading again.)

and let me second junius in saying that michael berube's 3:19 is a piece of genius.

Matt,

This is a very disingenuous interpretation of Berman's argument over the years. You conveniently leave out his article from the March 3rd, 2003 (written just days before the war began) in the New Republic which provides a much clearer picture of his political views:

And here we stumble on a peculiar tragedy of our present moment. The United States has come under military attack, requiring military responses. But, as in the Civil War, the revolutionary responses of liberal democratic ideals are likewise required, and not in a small degree. For the ultimate goal of our present war--the only possible goal--must be to persuade tens of millions of people around the world to give up their paranoid and apocalyptic doctrines about American conspiracies and crimes, to give up those ideas in favor of a lucid and tolerant willingness to accept the modern world with its complexities and advantages. The only war aim that will actually bring us safety is, in short, the spread of liberal outlooks to places that refuse any such views today. That is not a small goal, nor a goal to be achieved in two weeks, nor something to be won through mere military feats, though military feats cannot be avoided.


In each of the greatest crises of its past, the United States has known how to summon its most radical ideals and to express them in ever deeper versions to ourselves and to our enemies--as Lincoln did; as Woodrow Wilson did; as Franklin Roosevelt did two times over, first against the fascists and then, at the end of his life, in sketching a few preliminary notions for the impending cold war. But, on these themes, our present White House has turned out to be incoherent. George W. Bush's demeanor, his undignified language (and even the language of his speechwriters, which is oddly antique, without any hint of the revolutionary liberalism of 1989 and the modern era), his early bias against what he derided as "nation-building," the continuing sneer at revolutionary liberation that is contained in the sinister phrase "regime change," his antipathy toward the ideals of international law, his uncultured air--these are traits that Hobbes would surely have ascribed to an American head of state or to any head of state. Right now, we need to summon people around the world to express a "devotion" (in Lincoln's word) to liberal ideals--a devoted enthusiasm for those ideas among the schoolteachers in every impoverished immigrant suburb of Europe, among the editors in every Arab newspaper office, and among the professors in every Muslim university. We need the cooperation of millions of people, who, in their idealism, will rush out to argue with their own students and neighbors and readers. But the U.S. government, which knows how to twist the arms of Turkish politicians, does not know how to inspire the schoolteachers and newspaper editors and professors, not to mention the European masses, not to mention the American masses. Worse, the American leaders don't even try to inspire people around the world, which is shocking to see, considering that our current problem is 90 percent political and only 10 percent military.

And so, we find ourselves in the midst of a Lincolnian war, a war for the liberation of others, yet led by people with Hobbesian instincts--find ourselves plunged into a crisis of liberal democracy, in which our leaders do not know what Lincoln knew, which was how to appeal to the ever more radical principles of liberal democracy. Our military is armed to the teeth, which turns out to be a good thing. (I admit it.) But our government has for some reason disarmed itself unilaterally in the realms of persuasion, inspirational example, philosophical clarity, and moral leadership. How did this happen to us? It has happened to us. Tocqueville thought that liberal societies could not wield power, and Lincoln proved him wrong. I am terrified that we are in the process of proving Lincoln wrong--that we are wielding power without liberalism, which will turn out to be no power at all.

Berman's not some kind of hoo rah rah neoconservative that he is so often made out to be.

Paul Berman is a writer. Check the Wikipedia page at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Berman.

I don't see where PB gets to say "I told you so". He's a liberal hawk who was in favor of taking down Saddam in 2003. I haven't read his books, maybe he told us how to do it? Maybe he told somebody something that isn't public and that's what he's remembering? Matt should have contacted him directly and asked about it. Doesn't The Atlantic provide any research assistants? A secretary?


ray, i don't really care how "terrified" paul berman was: he supported this war under this president and is now trying to pretend he didn't. f#ck him....

ray, you bolded the wrong part:

That is not a small goal, nor a goal to be achieved in two weeks, nor something to be won through mere military feats, though military feats cannot be avoided.

How on Earth is that not a call to arms? Support for a war?

We could have easily avoided "military feats". Very, very easily, especially regarding Iraq. It would have taken no effort at all.

His terminal faux-handwrining over a liberalism that requires mass death in order for liberalism to win is a spectacle of lunacy and sickening delusions when he's saying, essentially, "I'm not saying our hair won't get mussed" before oh-so-reluctantly concluding that global war is a necessity.

You mistake longwindedness for thought and obvious hedging before reaching a foregone conclusion as debate.

I find it really fascinating that the progressive movement is so interested in wasting vast amounts of energy in deciding who of their compatriots is (or even was) "right" or "wrong" on this single policy issue. This is among people who agree on most other aims of their party and they should be working with. No they are evil, cast them out

It's like the anti - "Blue Dog" movement. Democrats get control of Congress for the first time in 12 years in part by running somewhat conservative candidates in culturally conservative districts. Not even a year later there's a concerted effort to run them out of the party.

Looks like a circular firing squad.

As the one crone said to the other in that Monty Python sketch: "Berman!"

We can only hope that the Infinitely Recursive Liberal Hawk Self-Satisfaction Vortex that Michael Bérubé refers to will suck all the liberal hawks past its event horizon and down into its depths, so we might never hear from them again.

We should be so lucky.

ray, you bolded the wrong part:

That is not a small goal, nor a goal to be achieved in two weeks, nor something to be won through mere military feats, though military feats cannot be avoided.

How on Earth is that not a call to arms? Support for a war?

We could have easily avoided "military feats". Very, very easily, especially regarding Iraq. It would have taken no effort at all.

His terminal faux-handwrining over a liberalism that requires mass death in order for liberalism to win is a spectacle of lunacy and sickening delusions when he's saying, essentially, "I'm not saying our hair won't get mussed" before oh-so-reluctantly concluding that global war is a necessity.

You mistake longwindedness for thought and obvious hedging before reaching a foregone conclusion as debate.

I find it really fascinating that the progressive movement is so interested in wasting vast amounts of energy in deciding who of their compatriots is (or even was) "right" or "wrong" on this single policy issue.

I find it amazing that people find a global war, the rise of a homeland security apparatus and support for an absolute disaster a "single policy issue". It's kind of the defining moment for our times.

That's not at all what he's doing. I suggest you read his article in Dissent from this past Spring in which he writes at length about Iraq and what went wrong. He still supports, as I do, the removal of Saddam Hussein from power.

The administration was in the grip of a belief in magic Hegelianism, which is to say, End-of-History-ism, which allowed the administration to believe that, once Saddam had been removed, democracy was going to emerge without anyone’s having to make much effort. This belief was reinforced by the administration’s commitment to the same laissez-faire, do-little concept of government that proved so unfortunate in New Orleans, and this led the administration to believe once again that, in Iraq just as everywhere else, the government which governs least is the best government. Then, too, the secretary of defense turned out to be a maniac of the new ideology of “military transformation,” according to which high-tech military efforts would suffice to win the war, without large numbers of troops, which was yet another way of concluding that wonderful results would come from modest efforts. This is not to say that the Bush administration wished for other than wonderful results. A good many of the top members of Bush’s team had been in power in 1989 as well, and they had overseen the American invasion of Panama, which likewise toppled a dictator; and I think that, in 2003, those same government officials imagined that, just as the Panamanians had risen to the occasion of an American military attack by establishing a fairly commendable democracy in Panama, the Iraqis were going to do the same. And the Panamanians did rise to the occasion; but Iraq is not Panama.

I realize that many people have concluded that, given Iraq’s difference from Panama, a better outcome was never within reach, no matter what policy might have been pursued. But this is, by definition, a hypothetical argument, and anyone who clings to the hypothesis does have to recognize, at least, that a good many solid experts thought otherwise, and the solid experts issued warnings about the Bush administration’s foolish policies before the war, and they issued those warnings precisely in the belief that, if only the foolish policies could be replaced with wiser ones, better results could be achieved. On this topic, too, on the prewar warnings by people who did think that Saddam’s overthrow could lead to positive results, there is now a copious literature.

The most striking of these warnings, in my eyes, came from Bernard Kouchner, the French socialist and a pillar of the anti-totalitarian left [and now the new French Foreign Minister]—the very man who had been the principal UN administrator or regent in Kosovo at the beginning of the postwar occupation there. In thinking about the overthrow of Saddam, Kouchner drew on a considerable personal experience in Iraq. He recognized the extreme desirability of overthrowing the dictatorship, but he favored doing this in a manner that would have followed the kinds of policies that had turned out reasonably well not in Panama but in Kosovo, during the period of his own UN regency. Kouchner advocated, in effect, an extension of the Balkans policy into Iraq—and this was the position, I might add, of a great many people on the left who hoped to see Saddam overthrown.

I really suggest reading the whole thing. You can criticize Berman for supporting the war, but then you have to ask if whether anyone who supported the war initially deserves to be listened to or to be called a "fascist"? After all, Paul Berman, Matt Yglesias, Kevin Drum, John Edwards, Max Cleland, Hillary Clinton and around 70% of America supported the war in the beginning.

Campesino:

were you even around in 2006?

Your description of how Democrats won Congress is curiously at odds with how I remember it happening.

Was Jim Webb a Blue Dog? Jon Tester?

Joe Lieberman kept his Senate seat by promising the Democrats of Connecticut that he'd be a good Democrat and that nobody wanted the war to end more than he did.

Harold Ford ran for the TN Senate seat promising to be a Blue Dog Senator and lost.

The idea that Democrats won by promising to be more conservative is a myth.

"Cultural conservatives" are not in favor of what Blue Dogs say they are, like allowing the government to spy on whoever they want. "Cultural conservatives" are not in favor of the idea that telecom corporations should be granted immunity in court for breaking the law.

"Cultural conservatism" is not a Bush-worshipping cult. I know it's treated that way by a lot of idiot Blue Dogs, but you really need to know some more conservatives to understand that "real conservatives" don't like Bush either, so repeatedly letting Bush have his way on Constitutional matters only convinces swing voters that the Democrats are idiots.

And let's be honest: this is not about "cultural conservatism". It's about rampant abuse of power, and the fact that some Blue Dogs have been more than willing to grease the skids for Bush, time and time again.

Ray--the problem is the vast gulf between the hawks' sense of their own importance and their actual role. They perceive themselves to be setting the terms of the entirely of debate; thus Berman is "right" to claim "he told us so" because he believed it was realistic to assume that actual policymakers might listen to his entire argument--he's a very important dude, after all. His "analysis" and "rationale" are important only if one assumes (as he continues to do) that those rationales might have some effect on policy. Of course, the actual function Berman and his ilk served was to reassure the media etc. that the anti-war movement actually consisted of inaccurate 1960s hippie stereotypes, and that serious liberals also believed war was necessary. Their "yes" to war was all that was useful, and it was useful not for making policy but merely for legitimating it (or providing the appearance of legitimacy).

It's also at bottom vilely disingenuous for Berman to posit some kind of alternate universe (check that--Bizarro world) where he's right as a justification for his argument. As Berman clearly noted, he clearly understood both that 1)the war would be a disaster if not fought in specific ways and 2)there was no reason to think the war would be fought in those ways.

Thanks to ray and Campesino for breaking up what would otherwise have been a collection of totally vapid comments.

We went to war in Iraq in 1991 for good cause, and spent the next twelve years trying to find a way to get it over with the easy way. People who are oblivious to the sacrifices of the tens of thousands of service personnel (and their families) who deployed to the Persian Gulf, and to the deaths of perhaps a million of the most vulnerable Iraqis due to the sanctions we enforced during this period, should be reading history instead of posting about it.

I agree that Berman should not be called a "fascist". A dupe maybe. Or a longwinded ponce. A weasel is not out of the question. A believer in ponies and fairies and magical thinking.

ray, you tell me who thought Saddam was a good guy -- that's the false dichotomy Berman and you are clinging to. Either your for Hussein or in favor of the war.

You wanted him 'overthrown'? Well, good on you. Now what? Seriously. Berman points to Bosnia/Kosovo, he credits the Bushies with Panama. Great. Now you tell me where those places are vis a vi the position of Iraq in the global scheme of things. You tell me WHY overthrowing Saddam then and there with THIS administration involved had any merit at all. Berman spells out why it didn't work, of course, but he blames the execution, not the fantasy that sparked it.


In the real world, ction and consequence have a very intimate correlation, but ivory tower wanking is safe and cruelty-free. And the only thing that can be failed is the follow through, never the idea. Own up to it. Everyone hated Hussein, it doesn't make you a better person.

Baathist and Islamist movements—the two branches of what ought to be regarded as Muslim fascism

That is astonishingly stupid. Disqualifying-you-from-expressing-any-further-opinions stupid.

It's like saying, "Hitler and Stalin represent the two branches of European fascism. Therefore, in the wake of Germany's declaration of war on us, we must invade and occupy Russia."

Ray, the fact that Berman engaged in some handwringing doesn't mean that he didn't support the war. Yes, he did. And I did too.

But you know what? I was wrong.

And so was Berman.

And he's saying "I told you so," while praising himself for not doing so.

Berman was wrong, grievously wrong, and grievously stupid, and now he is acting insufferably on top of it.

Adios, Mr. Berman. Review movies, go to business school, go do some reporting. But no more punditry for you.

I really suggest reading the whole thing. You can criticize Berman for supporting the war, but then you have to ask if whether anyone who supported the war initially deserves to be listened to or to be called a "fascist"?

Oh, fuck off, Paul -- I mean, 'ray'.

There's a fairly clear distinction to be made between the liberal (shite-)hawks who have consistently wiggled their position just to ensure that it keeps them employed with books, op-eds and nice titles at think-tanks -- let's call them 'the Beinart Brigade' -- and thus deserve life-long scorn and piss-puddles on their graves, and those who realised sufficiently early that Iraq was a clusterfuck.

We went to war in Iraq in 1991 for good cause, and spent the next twelve years trying to find a way to get it over with the easy way.

Just think: we could have saved money and lives by diverting our efforts towards removing the sticks from the asses of people like Robert Powell.

and to the deaths of perhaps a million of the most vulnerable Iraqis due to the sanctions we enforced during this period, should be reading history instead of posting about it.

Ah, the "humanitarian" argument about how war stopped the death-by-sanction (a dubious accusation, but let's entertain it) of Iraqis without mentioning the million or so deaths of Iraqis because of the war.

Seriously Robert. This is your argument? That it was better for 'vulnerable' Iraqis to die faster deaths by bombs and secretarian violence?

Who the hell is Paul Berman?

The poor man's Christopher Hitchens.

life-long scorn and piss-puddles on their graves

Nice.

Here's a job for Paul Berman:

How about replacing the current brutal regime in Iraq with a democratic one? Most Iraqis now say that they were better off with Saddam Hussein. They have no jobs, no good drinking water, no electricity and plenty of killings. Paul, how about a new effort to overthrow the Americans?



As they tell it in Maine, the tourist asks, "Can you tell me the best way to get to a certain place?"
The down-Mainer says, "Well, for the best way, I wouldn't start from here."
After reading your Berman stuff I have to say that I was completely naive as to how batsh*t these people are. I have consistently believed that the 'Islamo-facsist' and 'WWIII' yammerings are mostly deliberate red meat propaganda selling phrases. Never again.
While reading the diatribes I kept wondering how do the WWIII Islamo Fascist ("IsFst") guys reconcile the fact that the social religious underpinnings of Sadaam's Sunni government were secular...non-Sharia...less or non women's equality or dress code Nazis.
And the answer is.!! "Iraq, with its somewhat antique variation of the Muslim totalitarian idea, was merely a place to begin,"
You call sectarian Iraq a somewhat antique variation...which means actually it does not qualify in terms of its social religious framework as being in any way part of the IsFst appocalyptic wave.
When Eastern Europe communism came a cropper, the kids had jeans, rock and today tattoos. So blowing up a secular bastion as a first move to change an adverse religious wave in the Middle East is unfathomally stupid.
Hey, for our next move let's blow up Iran...the kids there have secular leanings...let's kill their parents and ostracise the West for a few hundred years.
Craig Johnson

ray, i thought the point of the post was criticizing berman for lying about being against the war. the other people you list as far as i know have had the decency to be honest about their past.

I have to confess that I never heard of Paul Berman until today. But he's yet another example of the decline of Western intellectual thought.

What a pack of morons. It's still hard to believe that we've been reduced to this.

In all of this the neocons are easy to understand. They amount to nothing more than a bunch of adolescents playing a board game. A game they've been playing, at least, since Team B. And some of the current players were a part of Team B.

The authoritarian cons are also easy to understand. They want to 'roll back' everyone. Everyone else in the world is, to them, untermenschen. Blowing up everyone who's not us is an ongoing wet dream for these 'people.'

The cons of various stripes represent severely arrested development.

But liberal hawks should know better. Their characterization of people who strongly opposed the Iraq fiasco is like reading the strawman chronicles.

Anyone descended from bi-pedals clearly understood that invading Iraq was a horrible, monumental blunder on an epic scale. Clearly understood this from the time the propaganda buildup began. No 'Now I see the light' excuses tolerated.

The only plausible explanation for the liberal hawks is that they represent a backward step in the evolutionary process.

To my mind, the awe I feel that Berman could distinguish between Lincoln and Bush is much like that I feel before Beethoven's symphonies and the like - such genius! such insight! Of course he feels a quiet satisfaction in that. How many people were going around saying, I bet you Lincoln will win this war? So many! Such confusion. Others were looking out for Johnny Reb to creep upon them in the middle of the night. But not Berman. Or not quite - he still sorta confused an internal conflict in the 19th century U.S. with invading a Middle Eastern country, but - damn!- you know how difficult all those wars are to tell apart.

"Let him give up his arrogance, small-mindedness, and aversion to large and idealistic ideas."

This is an astonishing misreading of our Fearless Leader. Bush is arrogant and small-minded, yes, but his most dangerous quality is that he thinks he understands big ideas like "freedom" and "peace." Fitzgerald nails his ilk in the first Chapter of The Great Gatsby, in the person of Tom Buchanan, "nibbl[ing] at the edge of stale ideas." Just try this out in your best George W. voice:

"Well, these books are all scientific... This fellow has worked out the whole thing... we've produced all the things that go to make civilization--oh, science and art and all that. Do you see?"

Campesino:

were you even around in 2006?

Your description of how Democrats won Congress is curiously at odds with how I remember it happening.

Was Jim Webb a Blue Dog? Jon Tester?
=================================================

You don't think they are conservative Democrats? Why don't you check their positions in support of the NRA.

================================================

So let's see - Democrats go up 31 seats in the House in the 2006 election, and this group has targeted 39 Democrats that should be driven out of the party for being too conservative

http://openleft.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=1073

You don't think that's self-destructive. About a half dozen are first termers

================================================
And the NY Times sure seemed to think Webb and Tester were conservative

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/07/weekinreview/07lizza.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

What? The NRA backed the invasion of Iraq? Wow. Now that is a broad interpretation of the 2nd Amendment.

Still, I really don't know if I'd categorize the Iraqi forces as a "well-regulated militia."

ray, the first time i was willing to believe that you missed the point, but on this second go-round it is perfectly clear that you are willfully ignoring it. berman supported the only war that counted: the actual one. that was a mistake of historic proportions, and now he's trying to pretend he didn't really make it.

as for campesino, whatever offtopic blather are you going on about? unlike the gop, the democrats in congress have not embraced a parliamentary model: it really doesn't matter which members of the gop are in congress, because (as the authoritarian party), they vote in lockstep an extraordinary percentage of the time.

it does matter who is in the democratic congressional delegation, because the members are more willing (or less frightened) to vote their individual inclinations.

"We went to war in Iraq in 1991 for good cause, and spent the next twelve years trying to find a way to get it over with the easy way. People who are oblivious to the sacrifices of the tens of thousands of service personnel (and their families) who deployed to the Persian Gulf, and to the deaths of perhaps a million of the most vulnerable Iraqis due to the sanctions we enforced during this period, should be reading history instead of posting about it.

Posted by Robert Powell | November 12, 2007 5:04 PM"

Or we could have done something like, you know, change the sanctions regime to make it more less broad and more specifically target those sectors related to weapons development. Don't try to hide behind the troops like a whiny little bitch just because your war didn't turn out how you hoped. Be man enough to stand on your own two feet when you say why you support certain policies. We went to war for the causes of 1) kicking Iraq out of Kuwait (accomplished) and 2) preventing Hussein from marching on Saudi Arabia (accomplished). These were the goals defined by the president who sent us in and the UNSC. That same president said that marching on Baghdad would be a disaster and he was right.

Your logic could be used to justify just about any atrocity. If anything bad ever happens in history and is thus responded to by violence in a way that doesn't really make sense, one can easily hide behind troops, point out that a foreign leader is bad and then lose all moral responsibility for their actions. "Hitler was bad and our Red Army is in Hungary/Czechoslovakia because they defeated the Nazis there. Eastern Europeans need us. All hail Comrade Stalin/Brezhnev!" "MacArthur is bad. All hail Chairman Mao's invasion of Korea!" "Salazar is a fascist. Portuguese imperialism and forced conversions to Catholicism are bad. All hail Suharto's invasion of East Timor!" "These Americans are killing hundreds of thousands of us and bombing our country. All hail Pol Pot!" etc., etc...

And the NY Times sure seemed to think Webb and Tester were conservative

Ah, the famed faux-naive "why even the liberal New York Times!" pose. From the article (more of a muddled puff piece than a serious news analysis, really) that Campesino links to:

“You can argue it will cause more problems because there will be more cross currents,” says Mr. Carville. “A lot of these guys are economically pretty populist — Webb and Tester — more so than the Clintonites like myself.”

How exactly is being more economically populist than Hillary Clinton a "conservative" position?

This letter to the NYRB was that moment for Paul Berman where, reading him, you get this sinking feeling in your gut, the sinking feeling of watching someone get so wrapped up in their own tortured polemic that they do something unnecessary and humiliating which they just shouldn't have done. I remember a friend telling me Bill Clinton had said, flat out, "I did not have sex with that woman," and thinking, oh, no, why did he have to go and say that. This episode for Paul Berman is a similarly humiliating moment. Somehow he's gotten himself to a point where he would rather wrap himself up in ever more convoluted and flat-out untrue self-justifications than come clean and admit he was wrong. Say what you want about Andrew Sullivan (or Matthew Yglesias!), but on this point they've been admirably decent. Just say it: "I was wrong." It's not so hard.

Oh, and the craziest part of all of this is that he's accusing Ian Buruma of condescension and spite towards Ayaan Hirsi Ali! Buruma likes Ali, and has always written favorably about her. He disagrees with some of her ideas and thinks her political stance of radical anti-Islamicism is unlikely to be appealing to Muslim women. (Obviously.) But when Ali was effectively forced to leave the Netherlands because the state declined to pay for her security detail anymore (and briefly revoked her passport over stale accusations, which she had long publicly acknowledged, that she had lied on her application for asylum), Buruma sharply criticized the sentiments that had driven her out, and wrote, "My country feels the smaller for it." (Buruma is Dutch.) It just feels like Berman is losing it.

Paul Berman can never be wrong. Like all true May '68ers, he can only be failed by others lack of adherence to the one true ideology.

These guys' self-regard is just amazing. Everyone is wrong about one big policy in their lives. They just can't ever admit it. Being right on the Iraq War for the hawks has become the very meaning of their existence the past few years. It's both laughable and humiliating how Berman and Hitchens can't own up to their own mistakes. Drezner, Zakaria, Yglesias, Ezra Klein, Kevin Drum, Andrew Sullivan, McArdle and others have admitted they were wrong. Why can't these guys? Is it because they're friends with the likes of Wolfowitz and they can't deal with anyone making fun of their little clique? Why should anyone outside of the clique give a fuck about them?

Ray,

You've already come in for a lot of criticism, and I want to add a bit, I hope in the fair-minded spirit in which you wrote. This bit of your post stood out:

"He still supports, as I do, the removal of Saddam Hussein from power."

This seems to me to express Berman's attitude very well, one according to which it's a vitally important question--one worth dilating on at length--whether one supports (supported) the removal of SH ... in complete abstraction from the means by which by this was to be accomplished and their likely consequences. I couldn't agree with Jay B more. People who wouldn't favor the removal of SH in this way must have been as rare as hen's teeth. But most of us moved on to what we thought was the important question, whether we favored the removal of SH by the means available, through the agency of the forces on offer, and at the cost their use would entail, namely, among other things, a massive blow to the framework of international legality in which this country and its closest allies had invested an enormous amount of effort over the decades, a war, which would cause death and destruction as all wars do and the real chance of creating unstable conditions that would bring about still more death destruction and general human misery. This is the question with which those of us who opposed overthrowing Saddam Hussein were concerned, not whether, other things being equal, the world would be better without SH (Yep! it would be). And this, the war we were actually likely to have and now still have, is what Berman and his ilk were supporting, not the affirmative side of the question whether in the abstract SH should be removed from power.

I think Michael Ledeen takes the cake with his claim that he, too, opposed the Iraq war and thus has no reason to feel guilty.

WOW! Where did he make this BIG LIE?

Most of the above is a stunning collection of ignorance posing as sophistication--the amount of actual historical knowledge on display above is overwhelmed by rote repetition of undergraduate-level accepted wisdom. Worse, it seems that many posters here believe that if one is sufficiently rude, this will be an acceptable substitute for being well-informed; ugliness as an indication of political commitment.

Ray is correct in pointing out that the American public and Congress supported the invasion nearly 3:1. So did the entire Clinton national security team, and the governments of nearly every important democracy in the world minus those whose leaders were on the Iraqi payroll. Suggesting that this support (which was more or less exactly present in 1993) was a result of "Bush lies" is risible. Suggesting that enforcing Chapter VII Resolutions is "illegal" is a formula for finally ensuring that the UN goes the way of the League of Nations. Moreover, it posits the votes of a handful of crooks on the Security Council as more legitimate expressions of legality than the freely-elected governments of countries like the US, Britain, Italy, Spain, Japan, South Korea, Poland, etc. etc.

I can't for the life of me figure out what motivates people to such feats of historical distortion. I suspect it's a function of confusing politics with some kind of lifestyle or fashion statement. It doesn't really fit with the traditions of an institution like The Atlantic, and it is a significant handicap for the Democrats in particular.

To Norman Mailer, Saddam pre-invasion was just a "punched out palooka" who was no threat to anyone.
Closer to the truth than all the national security experts in DC.

Suggesting that this support (which was more or less exactly present in 1993) was a result of "Bush lies" is risible.

Exactly. The foolish and idiotic support for the invasion and occupation of Iraq were based on far more liars than Bush Jr.

Of course, I respect my fellow citizens enough to harshly disagree with them when I think they have chosen something wrongly.

But this is kind of cute use of polls, given that the public weren't clamoring for any invasion when it wasn't imminent, and supposedly they were also correct then, and now that they public overwhelmingly regrets and criticizes the entire decisions which led up to the invasion, I suppose they're wrong.

Turns out that 'the public' only matters to right wingers when they happen to favor right wing goals, and at any other point they're irrelevant.

This Powell idiot shows zero bit more historical knowledge than any other of the vainglorious fantasists who wove comic book narratives of liberation and Sgt Rock tough guy-ism.

Thankfully, the plaintive 'please believe me, please still see my opinions as relevant' tone of the increasingly pathetic 'liberal hawks' -- the subject of this original post -- helps to indicate their own understanding of their well-deserved irrelevance.

Most of the above is a stunning collection of ignorance posing as sophistication

As opposed to what? Pomposity posing as good judgement?

Worse, it seems that many posters here believe that if one is sufficiently rude, this will be an acceptable substitute for being well-informed; ugliness as an indication of political commitment.

Au contraire: the cost in blood and treasure of extracting the stick up your ass and the asses of your like-minded hawks would have been much lower than that of waging a war and occupation.

Moreover, it posits the votes of a handful of crooks on the Security Council as more legitimate expressions of legality than the freely-elected governments of countries like the US, Britain, Italy, Spain, Japan, South Korea, Poland, etc. etc.

The bait-and-switch here is really quite shameless: I note that you don't mention the popular opposition to the invasion in the countries you mention, whose governments acted squarely against the will of the majority. And please, keep up the implied slanders against France. It makes you look oh-so-mature.

But being a pompous blusterer with a stick up your ass means never having to say you're sorry.

Powell said, "Suggesting that this support... was a result of "Bush lies" is risible."

No, Bobby, what's risible is that you are willing to make a claim as absurd as this one. Let's be very clear about this, Bobby. The American people supported the war for 2 reasons 1) they thought Hussein had WMD and 2) they thought Hussein was working with Osama bin Laden.

But, contrary to your puzzling dismissal, both of those "reasons" turned out to be false -- based on demonstrable lies. There is an entire genre of books that document Bush's lies on these points in excruciating detail. Bush and his co-conspirators mounted a propaganda campaign unequalled in American history for its extent, perniciousness, and effectiveness.

For you to claim otherwise means one of two things: 1) either you are incredibly gullible and stupid or 2) you are a propagandist yourself.

Either way, you can go fuck yourself, Bobby.

"Most of the above is a stunning collection of ignorance posing as sophistication"

ROFL.... As compared to what? The pomposity and misinformation in your own post?

"--the amount of actual historical knowledge on display above is overwhelmed by rote repetition of undergraduate-level accepted wisdom."

ROFLMAO.... Oh, the irony....

"Worse, it seems that many posters here believe that if one is sufficiently rude, this will be an acceptable substitute for being well-informed;"

Dear heart, why on earth should we be polite to stupidity?

"ugliness as an indication of political commitment."

No, dear, we just don't suffer fools gladly.

"Ray is correct in pointing out that the American public and Congress supported the invasion nearly 3:1."

That's bullshit, of course. Congress may have supported the war to that degree; the American public did not. And the American public supported it only under certain conditions -- UN support, actual WMDs found, actual connections to al Qaeda and/or 9/11, and so on, none of which actually came to pass.

"So did the entire Clinton national security team, and the governments of nearly every important democracy in the world minus those whose leaders were on the Iraqi payroll."

ROFL... And more bullshit, particularly about the "governments of nearly every important democracy in the world." You can only make that claim by ignoring the "governments of nearly every important democracy in the world." What's so pathetic about this is how transparently false your claims are. Truly wonderful, in light of your earlier comments.

"Suggesting that this support (which was more or less exactly present in 1993)"

LOL... Dear heart, pretending that the situation in 1993 was even remotely comparable to the situation in 2003 is hilariously stupid. What was that you were saying above about "ignorance" and "historical knowledge?"

"was a result of 'Bush lies' is risible."

Dear heart, since that is precisely the case, forgive us if we don't do a lot of laughing.

"Moreover, it posits the votes of a handful of crooks on the Security Council...."

LOL.... Q.E.D. Need we say anything more?

"I can't for the life of me figure out what motivates people to such feats of historical distortion."

We can't either, dear. Care to enlighten us?

"I suspect it's a function of confusing politics with some kind of lifestyle or fashion statement."

You said it, dear; we didn't.

"....it is a significant handicap for the Democrats in particular."

So how did 2006 work out for you, dear? And how is 2008 looking? Would that the Democrats get such a "handicap" in every election.

Too much adolescent ignorance above to mess with point by point-once you guys grow up and read something more substantial than websites, you'll be embarrassed by the extent to which you just swallowed down rather than finding out.

Most reasonably well-informed observers knew that it was extremely unlikely that Saddam had an active rather than a potential nuke program in 2003, and the administration didn't contest the experts who said so in public. Such observers also knew Iraq was in flagrant material breech of its "last opportunity" to disarm in a transparent and pro-active way, but who cares about actual legal facts when you've got a groupthink deal going, right?

Suffice to say that in 2004, when all the bullshit about "Bush lies" was on the table, and everyone knew there had been major fuck-ups, a majority of voters still re-elected him. In my view, it was not so much support for Bush, who could have been beaten by a competent campaign, but widespread revulsion at the kind of aggressive know-nothings like the above posters associated with the party. Karl Rove loves you guys, but as a Democrat with a functioning memory, I wish folks like you would join another party. Try the Greens.

2008 worked out fine for me--I was delighted to see an end to the single-party rule foisted on us by Democratic incompetence like that in evidence here. Hoping for the best in '08, as I'm pretty sure we already had the referendum on the Iraqi invasion in '04 and the lunatic fringe may not be as damaging this time. You guys are still going to be howling at the moon when Iraq is a functioning ally like South Korea.

Mr. Powell are you usually this dense or did you recently take a sharp blow to the head?

"Most reasonably well-informed observers knew that it was extremely unlikely that Saddam had an active rather than a potential nuke program in 2003, and the administration didn't contest the experts who said so in public."

Yeah, there was no mention by the Bush administration of yellow cake, mushroom clouds or aluminum tubes in the Fall/Winter of '02-'03

"In my view, it was not so much support for Bush, who could have been beaten by a competent campaign, but widespread revulsion at the kind of aggressive know-nothings like the above posters associated with the party."

Except for the fact that your view is worthless. Maybe one of the Republican candidates could use your political insight. I hear Tancredo is looking for bright folks like you.

Its just sad to see guys like Bobby Powell here who have been so completely brainwashed by the right wing and who are so emotionally fragile that they can't face up to the truth.

Face it Bobby: Bush lied us into war. Anyone with an ounce of free thought can recognise this instantly. If you can't bear to face that fact, you might as well be a Brezhnev supporter in the former Soviet Union.

When people like you guys were still wearing Pampers, people like me were in Iraq. Just because you don't have any knowledge of what happened before the 2000 election doesn't make it, or the historical record of it, go away. The kind of echo chamber circle jerk this thread illustrates is the main reason Bush is still in the White House. Brilliant, fellas. I'm sure everyone in the dorm agrees with you, so it must be The Truth. See you when you get there, if you get there.

When people like you guys were still wearing Pampers, people like me were in Iraq.

Sorry, but your service in Iraq doesn't give you any special insight into U.S. politics. Your analysis of Bush's 2004 victory sounds cribbed from Rush Limbaugh's fever dreams. You do realize 70% of the American people oppose the war at this point? Hope you enjoy President Hillary. Hopefully she won't get as many of your fellow soldiers killed as Bush has.

I'm not living in the US, so I wouldn't have access to Rush even if I wanted it, which I don't. But if looking at the 2004 election tells us anything, it's that the issues around the invasion of Iraq, including some of the worst errors of the occupation, were widely known and fully vetted in public. You're entitled to your own opinions about why Kerry lost, but not to your own facts.

Every single one of the leading Democrats who voted for the invasion made it expressly clear that they voted on the basis of their experience of dealing with Iraq (in some cases for decades), and on their own analysis of the intelligence. Members of Congress are not dependent on the White House to tell them what to think on vital national security issues, and any one of them who claimed they were would be automatically disqualified from consideration for higher office. It was an overwhelming national consensus that Iraq was an overt enemy state sitting on the key real estate in the region producing most of the oil and most of the terrorists. Given the record of unprecedented defiance of the Security Council, and the atmosphere post-9/11, this could no longer be tolerated. One didn't need to think Saddam hit the WTC to believe this, and polls showing many people did are truly bogus. If Saddam was believed to be responsible, why the wide support for the invasion of Afghanistan?

One can certainly argue that invasion and occupation, especially the latter, were not the best ways to address the long-standin and very serious problems with Iraq. But attempting to re-write history in order to claim brownie points for prescience is intellectually dishonest, and a dead loser politically


I believe that there were a lot of people who were willing to punish Bush for his mistakes, but were so turned off by the sort of Deaniac hysteria in evidence on threads like this as to sink the Democrats. The current manifestation of this narcissistic delusionism is believing that when the Republicans lost almost exactly the mean average number of seats in Congress that is the norm for the party in the White House in a second-term bi-election, it was "a mandate to get out of Iraq" rather than a reflection of the voters' disgust with a Republican Congress that was corrupt, scandal-ridden, hypocritical and wildly profligate in terms of spending, and utterly irresponsible in terms of oversight.

I think it's a similar and related misreading of the public to assume that polls showing that most people are fed up with the war means they are willing to accept defeat. I'm dissatisfied with Bush's prosecution of the war too, but that doesn't mean I think simply running away is the proper strategy.


Comments closed November 26, 2007.

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