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Obama's Meta Problem

28 Nov 2007 11:14 am

Peter Beinart pens a very smart analysis of why Barack Obama's had trouble gaining traction with his foreign policy critique of Hillary Clinton: His arguments about forward-looking Iraq policy make him look "like he's splitting hairs," the Senate resolution on Iran Clinton voted for "was rewritten to avoid any suggestion of military force," and most of all he "runs smack into America's strange indifference to the past. Recent American history is littered with candidates who were right about war and weren't rewarded at election time."

But Beinart misses another problem with Obama's strategy. When he tries to engage in an intra-party argument about foreign policy, people like Peter Beinart who've gone so far as to write a book about intra-Democratic disputes about foreign policy issues ignore what he's arguing in favor of making arguments about why his arguments aren't penetrating.

But that still leaves us with the question: Whether or not the voters care about a vote that happened five years ago, should they care? Not necessarily. But in combination with the fact that her posture toward Iran seems more aggressive, that she's less optimistic about the possibility of achieving a "grand bargain" through diplomacy, that her forward-looking Iraq policy seems more focused on a continuing military role, that she's been more cautious on America's nuclear arsenal, that she's attacked her primary opponents from the right on foreign policy issues, that seems to have a more hawkish cadre of advisors, and that has every incentive at the moment to minimize the appearance of a difference between her and Obama, I think all the evidence points in one direction: Obama would pursue a more restrained foreign policy, more inflected by the strains of realism and internationalism that have come to predominate among the dovish camp in American politics whereas Clinton would pursue a more militarily expansive one, more in line with the thinking of the establishmentarians who got us into war with Iraq and have since come to kinda sorta regret but don't really think they were wrong.

Can I say with 100 percent certainty what that'll amount to at the end of the day? No. Presidents have a habit of re-evaluating their foreign policy approach while in office. But it seems to me that the role of a journalist who's attuned to the small ins-and-outs of these debates is precisely to convey to readers things they might not otherwise pick up on, not to merely explain that people aren't picking up on stuff. And there's the rub, the differences in the positions Clinton and Obama have staked out have been subtle, but the differences keep lining up the same way.

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Comments (45)

Hillary's positioning herself for the general election. She thinks, rightly or wrongly, that a woman democratic nominee has to be a bit hawkish in order to retain just enough of the white, male vote to win the general. Like you, I find it hard to predict what she'd actually do as president.

take that Eric Martin, if that is your real name.

Of all the leading candidates: Clinton, Obama, Edwards, Guiliani, Romney and Huckabee - who is most likely to succeed in restraining Iran from developing nuclear weapons?

I say Hillary Clinton is most likely to succeed. She has experience, is tough, smart, and diplomatic. I see other democrats have good intentions but do not possess the qualities Clinton does to be successful. Success is not gauranteed but Clinton has the best chance.

The republicans, on the other hand, are all crazy and would actually drive Iran to nuclear weapons as the only alternative to invasion and war.

"role of a journalist ... convey to readers things they might not otherwise pick up on"

Oh, I thought their job was to lie to readers in order to ingratiate themselves with the hostess of the next big Village bash.

My bad.

The danger with a Democratic president usually isn't that [s]he will think that preventive war is a neat idea. Rather, it is that [s]he can be goaded into one for fear of appearing weak. So you have to ask, which Democrat can resist being pushed to war, if/when the drumbeat starts, as much as which Dem will have the least desire for war. And the ability to push back depends as much on the ground beneath that Dem president's feet as on his/her inclinations idea-wise.

Plus, while a Dem who says no to war is better than one who says yes, a Dem who says no to war and is re-elected is better than a Dem who says no and loses.

the next big Village bash

Okay, who started calling DC "the Village"? Is that another Atriosism? Because "the Village" means Greenwich Village, dopes.

Does anyone actually buy this crap that because an amendment was re-written to avoid the suggestion of military force but directly labels the official military of a foreign country an illegal terrorist organization aiding in attacks against U.S. forces abroad it somehow doesn't immediately contribute to the justification of military action by a president who's so inclined?

...that the United States should designate the Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps as a foreign terrorist organization under section 219 of the Immigration and Nationality Act and place the Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps on the list of Specially Designated Global Terrorists, as established under the International Emergency Economic Powers Act and initiated under Executive Order 13224...

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/amendment.xpd?session=110&amdt=s3017

'Oh, sure, I voted for something which says that a foreign military organization is an illegal terrorist group helping to attack our men and women abroad, but I never expected the President to actually take action on such a declaration.'?????

I'm convinced Obama's obscure and indirect references to policy differences are designed as a kind of dog-whistle message to the Clinton campaign. You might think it's too quiet but but Howard Wolfson and Hillary Clinton have their smear detectors set to 11 and the most obscure Obama reference sounds like a direct attack to the Clinton camp.

What does the Clinton camp do when attacked? Viciously counter-attack. Only in this case the Obama metacriticism was so quiet it looks to all the world like Hillary Clinton is lashing out and paranoid - the front runner who says "they're all out to get me".

I don't think HRC just had a few stumbles in the past few weeks. I think she walked into a few clever Obama traps. If this was basketball Obama's 'meta' would be the equivalent of baiting Hillary Clinton into an offensive foul.

I don't think HRC just had a few stumbles in the past few weeks. I think she walked into a few clever Obama traps.

I might buy this, if Clinton weren't also being pounded from the left by Edwards pretty fiercely. The debate that kicked off the whole "Clinton's slipping" meme was widely perceived to have been won by Edwards, and largely because of his ability to openly attack Clinton without looking too shrill or negative. That said, the media's continuing obsessing with a two-person race has taken those attacks and turned them to Obama's benefit as much as Edwards's.

"The Village" means Greenwich Village? Really? Even outside New York? On that TV show "The Prisoner" with Patrick McGoohan, he was kidnapped and held prisoner in Greenwich Village? Same way for M. Night Shyamalan's "The Village"? What the hell are you Greenwich Village people doing with your kidnappings of secret agents and construction of weird psychedelic robots and your simulations of 18th century life?

>I was one of the millions of Americans who thought that, sure, George W. Bush must be a maniac but if Bill and Hillary Clinton and Colin Powell and Madeleine Albright (and other Clinton-era officials like Ken Pollack) and Joe Biden and so on and so forth think it's a good idea, maybe I should have some more confidence.

This explains a lot about Matt's war on Hillary. But I don't think millions of Americans actually followed him in this stupidity (most of us who thought Bush was a maniac opposed the war) and in lumping a true believer like Pollack, or an administration loyalist like Powell in with the Clintons he shows he still doesn't understand the nature of his stupidity.

The Clinton's supported Bush (to the limited extent they did) not because of their hawkish views on Iraq but out of the political calculation that it would be safer for Hillary's prospects in the long run to position herself within the then Beltway consensus. (And if Hillary becomes President it will be harder to argue that calculation wasn't correct. We'll see.) That it was (and remains) a political calculation not to be taken seriously as an indication of actual policy beliefs has been obvious to many of us all along. (Whether you find that sort of calculation revolting or realistic is another debate.) That Matt actually took it seriously as evidence of a future Clinton foreign policy was (and remains) stupid indeed.

Funny Coach!

I am not henry evans, but great minds...;)

Ken may or may not be right in saying:

I say Hillary Clinton is most likely to succeed. She has experience, is tough, smart, and diplomatic. I see other democrats have good intentions but do not possess the qualities Clinton does to be successful. Success is not gauranteed but Clinton has the best chance.
The republicans, on the other hand, are all crazy and would actually drive Iran to nuclear weapons as the only alternative to invasion and war.

But Matt, will you please infuse some realism into your peeps. Obama, Barack Hussein Obama, is not going to be elected president in 2008. I'd bet major money on it, and give generous odds. If he's nominated, we'll have president Giuliani or some such, a real disaster.

Clinton's vote on Kyle Lieberman was actually very smart.

As long as Bush can be prevented from launching an umproved attack on Iran before she takes office her vote strengthens her hand in dealing with Iran. Her vote shows she means business and with her unmatched negotiating skills Hillary has the upper hand in making a deal with Iran to forgo the development of nuclear weapons and to exercise restraint on interference in Iraqi internal affairs.

If Iran does not negotiate a settlement of these issues then Hillary has the authority to take whatever steps are needed to protect American interests. This means she would have the legitimacy to bring other nations into a true coalition to confront Iran diplomaticaly if possible, militarily if necessary. This is the solution any progressive liberal can embrace.

No other candidate, Democratic or Rebuplicas has the standing Hillary Clinton has when it come to foreign policy.

The good thing about a blurb like this is I can quit reading the second I see the name Peter Beinart. It's a real time saver.

Ken:

It's clear you support HRC, which I'm not going to try and dissuade you from, but your analysis on certain points is, well, off.

No other candidate, Democratic or Rebuplicas has the standing Hillary Clinton has when it come to foreign policy.

Really? You draw this conclusion based on what? I'll throw two Democratic nominees who, while not seriously considered serious contenders, mop the floor with her regarding foreign policy: Joe Biden and Bill Richardson.

Sometimes it's helpful to step away from the koolaid and recognize that your candidate of choice is not the end all, be all.

the Senate resolution on Iran Clinton voted for "was rewritten to avoid any suggestion of military force,"

I think Beinart's being too clever here. Few Americans have read the resolution, but they've seen this play before. A resolution written to equate Iran with the terrorists is an attempt to move towards confrontation in a region that's already a quagmire. The fact that it was written by a man who's cheerleading the case for expanding the war is reason enough to vote against it.

And remember, the original AUMF wasn't supposed to be a declaration of war either. It was sold as the only way to prevent war (only with a credible threat of force can we avoid war). Clinton still uses this excuse for her original vote, despite the fact that it was transparently false at the time.

If Hillary's vote five years ago will not have any significant effect on her candidacy, why is Bill Clinton working so hard to defend it (see story in Rawstory today)?

...and if you are not following Eric Martin (and co)'s blog

http://americanfootprints.com/drupal/

you are dumber than the people that think "The Village" refers to DC, and almost as dumb as the people who think it must mean some part of the big city. [ignore the above insults, but do go visit American Footprints].

Dopes?

That's it, Christmas! I'm not celebrating you anymore.

What a surprise that pundits who supported the war are so willing to forgive HRC for making the same mistake!

Part of my problem with Obama is that I don't hear him attacking the Bush administration and/or the crazy-ass Republican policies and tendencies often enough. I mostly hear him dog-whistling about HRC's hawkishness and sniping somewhat pettily at her (of course, HRC is equally petty). Not to mention his timidity (or worse) on domestic issues. I know that this is the primary season and so it's a good time to attack other Dems, and I know the media loves to highlight petty squabbles and bury substantive differences. But . . . I really worry about Obama's "bipartisan" tendencies. This is not to say that I wouldn't vote for him, because I would. But, really, I'm with Ezra Klein: I can see strengths and weaknesses in each of the major candidates, and it mystifies me when people are so certain that one of them is the only one worth supporting.

I don't hear him attacking the Bush administration or the crazy-ass Republican policies ... I mostly hear him dog-whistling about HRC's hawkishness and sniping somewhat pettily at her

That's because he's in a primary campaign. The only candidates who can comfortably ignore their primary opponents are those who are convinced they have an insurmountable lead.

As for his bipartisan tendencies, it's Hillary who has repeatedly claimed that the executive deserves the benefit of the doubt from Congress. Which is an odd thing for a Senator from the opposition party to say. It's not that odd coming from a former first lady and presidential hopeful, though.

Does anyone actually buy this crap that because an amendment was re-written to avoid the suggestion of military force but directly labels the official military of a foreign country an illegal terrorist organization aiding in attacks against U.S. forces abroad it somehow doesn't immediately contribute to the justification of military action by a president who's so inclined?

Yeah, I'm pretty sure lots of people buy it, considering no fewer than ten Senators who voted against the Iraq war voted for Kyl-Lieberman.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure lots of people buy it

Don't accuse politicians of thinking like "lots of people".

While I wasn't happy with HRC's vote (I remain an Edwards supporter) if Bush decides to attack Iran he will, regardless of Kyl-Lieberman or anything else. If he is that crazy/stupid the only question is whether there is anyone high up left in the Pentagon to resign rather than carry out the order. That alone might give him pause. Though I doubt it. (I'm not quite convinced he is that crazy/stupid, but if he is, well, that's why we needed Kerry to win in 2004.)

I find that the assumptions about the racism that will prohibit Obama from being elected are silly. Obama needs 51% of the vote. Are you telling me that more than 50% of Americans are racist? Or that the critical 5-10% of swing voters are?

Nobody can know that. If anything, it's a far-fetched assumption IMO. On the contrary Obama has crossover appeal, charisma, knows how to broach the religion issue, has good oratorical skills and as we re discovering now, he can hold his own with in an environment of negativity. He can perhaps improve himself during debate time.

As I see it, Obama and Clinton have fairly similar chances of getting elected, but whereas with Clinton we ll get conventional and hawkish policies abroad with Obama we will get a subtle, but significant shift in the way we do business.

I will also add that what I love about Obama is that he has a more dovish worldview, but not excessively so. I love a point he made that the dichotomy ruling the Democratic party between hawkish and being dovish is false and that there can be a middle ground where one doesn't fear to take military action, but doesn't run to it either. Not only do I find this outlook substantially correct, but I think it has a shot of being politically viable as the foreign policy outlook Democrats offer and voters buy.

Does anyone actually buy this crap that because an amendment was re-written to avoid the suggestion of military force but directly labels the official military of a foreign country an illegal terrorist organization aiding in attacks against U.S. forces abroad it somehow doesn't immediately contribute to the justification of military action by a president who's so inclined?

Yeah, I'm pretty sure lots of people buy it, considering no fewer than ten Senators who voted against the Iraq war voted for Kyl-Lieberman.

Posted by Steve

Okay, we have an argument that 10 Senators who didn't vote for the AUMF are stupid enough to believe that labeling a foreign military organization a terrorist group which is attacking US troops does not contribute to the likelihood of a Bush / Cheney attack.

Who else?

Nick Kaufman writes:"I find that the assumptions about the racism that will prohibit Obama from being elected are silly. Obama needs 51% of the vote. Are you telling me that more than 50% of Americans are racist? Or that the critical 5-10% of swing voters are?"

Not racism, wariness of foreigness in a time of national anxiety. Look at the names of people who have been elected president. The furthest you get from Waspiness is "Kennedy." I know smart Dem politicians who thought that Mario CUOMO could never win a national election. The country is no longer there, and I think a Liu, or Lieberman that Americans knew well and for a while could be elected. But except for people who live in big city multicultural elite world, Barack Obama could seem (or be made to seem) weird as all get out. Plus his wife doesn't have the crossover charm he plainly does. (See the Sixty Minutes interview. See the look of alarm cross his face when she opines that "As a black man, he could be killed any time in this country, just walking to the gas station."

>>The Clinton's supported Bush (to the limited extent they did) not because of their hawkish views on Iraq but out of the political calculation that it would be safer for Hillary's prospects in the long run to position herself within the then Beltway consensus. (And if Hillary becomes President it will be harder to argue that calculation wasn't correct. We'll see.) That it was (and remains) a political calculation not to be taken seriously as an indication of actual policy beliefs has been obvious to many of us all along. (Whether you find that sort of calculation revolting or realistic is another debate.) That Matt actually took it seriously as evidence of a future Clinton foreign policy was (and remains) stupid indeed.

Posted by tdraicer


So let me get this straight, TDraicer. Matt is stupid to be criticizing Hillary because her vote for a war that killed 4,000 Americans and 600,000 Iraqis was only a tactical, political move, not indicative of her foreign policy in the future.

OK, I'll humor that contention. But isn't there something deeply wrong with voting for a war for political positioning rather than doing what you think is right? I think that line of criticism is even more damning of Hillary than Matt's line that she really believes it. It's probably a combination of both. Beneath her newfound Iraq War opposition, she is still on the hawkish side of every foreign policy argument with Obama and Edwards, even if it's only subtle.

She's miraculously managed to needle through this issue so far, but it's been becoming a larger and larger issue. I think it's one that is starting to resonate in Iowa and New Hampshire. That's why you see Hill and Bill pretty panicked about it. If Obama breaks through on this argument, her candidacy probably doesn't survive New Hampshire.

Recent American history is littered with candidates who were right about war and weren't rewarded at election time.

It is?

Pointing out where one made a better call than one's opponent in the past only cuts deeply if one goes on to draw a sharp distinction between one's plans for the future and the plans of one's opponent. If both are proposing roughly the same forward strategy, with only a few modest tactical differences, then it really doesn't matter much how the two candidates differed in the past.

I believe Obama's foreign policy strategy is significantly different, but the problem is that explaining the differences in the context of acceptable American political discourse is dicey. He could say something like this: "Of course, we are all forced to drink the crazy, paranoid AIPAC Kool-aid. That's a fact of life in American politics. But Senator Clinton appears to have quaffed a double portion. In fact, every indication is she actually likes the stuff and wants to swallow more!"

Of course, he can't make this statement, or anything that even carries a faint oder of the ballpark f the statement.

Recent American history is littered with candidates who were right about war and weren't rewarded at election time.

It is?

Good point.

Lets see of the 23 Senators who voted against the AUMF only 1 lost his seat (the Republican, for siding with Bush too often):

Wellstone, died.
Sarbanes retired and was replaced by a Democrat
Graham retired and was replaced by a Republican
Dayton retired and was replaced by a Democrat
Corzine - now NJ Governor, was replaced by a Democrat
Chafee (the only Republican) lost to a Democrat

Of the 77 who voted for the AUMF, 5 lost bids for reelection:

Democrats Carnahan, Cleland and Daschle lost the next election - to more conservative Republicans.

Republicans Allen, and Santorum lost to anti-war Democrats.

Lieberman was kicked out of his party and almost lost his seat.
Frist lost the Senate majority and quit.
Edwards retired and was replaced by a Republican.
Kerry lost the presidential election.

Ken, war monger, burbles: "Her vote shows she means business and with her unmatched negotiating skills Hillary has the upper hand in making a deal with Iran to forgo the development of nuclear weapons and to exercise restraint on interference in Iraqi internal affairs."

First of all, her "negotiating skills" pale beside those of the Persians who have been negotiating for thousands of years - and the current crop have kept the UN divided over sanctions for the last couple of years.

Second, since there is no evidence that Iran is developing nuclear weapons, what does she have to negotiate ON? Suspension of enrichment? Iran tried that - it didn't work with Bush and it won't work with Hillary because the official US position is that Iran is not allowed to enrich, period. But since Iran has no choice but to enrich to do its nuclear energy program, bingo, we're back to square one.

And here's your - and Hillary's - solution to square one:

"If Iran does not negotiate a settlement of these issues then Hillary has the authority to take whatever steps are needed to protect American interests. This means she would have the legitimacy to bring other nations into a true coalition to confront Iran diplomaticaly if possible, militarily if necessary."

First of all, there is no justification anywhere in the UN Charter for military action against Iran for the "crime" of being a member of the NPT and engaging in uranium enrichment, absent ANY evidence of a nuclear weapons program, let alone a threat to actually use such weapons.

Second, that being the case, there will be no "coalition of the willing", even including England, France, Germany, and Italy. Most of them will be very loath to get into another war like Iraq. The rest of the non-aligned world will vehemently oppose such a war. China and Russia will veto any UN resolution that the Big Five try to push.

So you're back to Hillary having to be George Bush to get any military action going against Iran.

Which, of course, was your point - bomb Iran - except you decided to pretty it up like Hillary does with "diplomacy first" meaningless talk.

Both you and Breinart are wrong: Obama has gained from his opposition to the Iraq war, because it shows that despite his "lack of experience" he has judgment. Had he got the call on the Iraq war wrong it would have been much more devastating to him than anybody else in this race.

Clinton is hurt by her vote on Iraq but not as much as some expected, mostly because, in large part, democratic politicians and most people made the same mistake she made. If the voters themselves can be deceived by the president then maybe she could too. So it's kind of forgiven.

These points are WAY too fine to be described and measured by polls and I'm very surprised people even bother to refer to poll numbers.

I am tired of people talking about Hillary's experience! What experience? Especially on Foreign Policy! She was WRong about her vote on Iraq. She didn't evem bother to read the report that was available to he before she voted. That demonstrates bad judgement! How would anyone want someone like that to run our country? She turned around and did the same thing on Iran - WRONG again. Well , at least she's consistent. She criticized Obama for being willing to sit down at the table with leaders from other countries who were not our "friend". Now everyone, including her , is talking about diplomacy. She criticized him on his statements about the Pakistan leader, Musharif (please excuse the misspellings). Now there is turmoil in that country directly related to Musharif. She is WRONG again about ther health care plan. Obama plan calls for reducing healthcare first thereby making it possible for more people to afford it and the government will help the rest. Her mandated plan penalizes those who don't have healthcare and yes the government will set in an pay for some how can't afford it. Who benefits the most from her plan? The Healthcare industry. They will get PAID by companies, private citizens, and the Government without lowering healthcare cost. And, oh yes, she will continue to receive her payment from them. Currently she is the second highest politician every to receive funds from Healthcare lobbyists. Also, don't dismiss her stand on war as simply "Hawkish". It is also Financial! She is the Higest paid politician to receive funds from the defense lobbyists. Therefore I put to you that her experience is best stated in terms of how to become financially independent while in public office!!!

Richard Steven Hack, we do not have a Persian to chose from among our candidates. We negotiate with the negotiators we have, not those we wish we had. As I pointed out above, Hillary is the best candidate we have in the running to deal with Iran.

We surely don't want them to obtain nuclear weapons. Liberals oppose proliferation. Any of the Republicans would give Iran the justification needed to persue nuclear weapons as a defense mechinism. Of the Democrats Hillary is in the best position to negotiate diplomatically, but from strength, with Iran in order to persuade them it is in their best interests not to produce nuclear weapons. A vote for Hillary is a vote to avoid war by reaching our goals by diplomatic means if at all possible. If not possible, then we still need to reach our goals, but by other means. Again Hillary is the best candidate to assemble the needed coalitions to accomplish this.

We don't want war, but we don't want nuclear proliferation either. Who else but Hillary do you think has the work ethic, the experience, the skills, the intellegence, and the diplomatic charm to pull this off?

Would you trust your life to Guilani, or to any of the others? I like all the democrats, but of them all, Hillary is the one I see as most capable to keep America safe and our enemies disarmed. And Hillary has the best shot at defeating any of the republican dirt bags nominated by the oppositon next year.


>OK, I'll humor that contention. But isn't there something deeply wrong with voting for a war for political positioning rather than doing what you think is right? I think that line of criticism is even more damning of Hillary than Matt's line that she really believes it.

Then don't vote for her in the primaries. I'm not, though I'll certainly vote for her if she is nominated. But my reading of history produces few politicians who don't factor their own political interests into such matters, and that includes good Presidents as well as bad. Hillary's vote was irrelevant to Bush's actions; she knew it, and Bush knew it, and so the main relevant question from her pov was what was the politically smart play? At the time, the Beltway consensus was to vote for the authorization, so that's what she did. If you find that shocking, you don't read enough history.

Before you charge that Obama's foreign policy advisors are more hawkish than Clinton's, I think you might want to have a look at Tony Lake who is a big time neo-con.

Larry Johnson lists him as one reason he could never support Obama.

Ken repeats his position thusly: "We surely don't want them to obtain nuclear weapons. Liberals oppose proliferation. Any of the Republicans would give Iran the justification needed to persue nuclear weapons as a defense mechinism. Of the Democrats Hillary is in the best position to negotiate diplomatically, but from strength, with Iran in order to persuade them it is in their best interests not to produce nuclear weapons. A vote for Hillary is a vote to avoid war by reaching our goals by diplomatic means if at all possible. If not possible, then we still need to reach our goals, but by other means. Again Hillary is the best candidate to assemble the needed coalitions to accomplish this."

In other words, you ignored every one of my points and simply restated your position.

Your only addition is to declare that the Republicans would give Iran "justification" to build nukes. Well, that is probably true, but it's irrelevant to the point I'm making.

The problem is: so would Hillary. Because YOUR - and Hillary's - goals - not "our goals" - are to prevent Iran from having a nuclear energy program that allows them the capability of building nukes should they decide to leave the NPT and do so.

The bottom line remains: there is ZERO evidence that Iran HAS a nuclear weapons program. There is ZERO evidence that Iran WANTS a nuclear weapons program (although any sane Iranian probably should and I don't doubt their military has looked into it to some degree.) Therefore there is nothing to negotiate for, diplomatically, and nothing to start a war over, militarily.

You continue to ignore those points - as does Hillary. Which is why Hillary should not be President - because she's a liar just like Bush.

If the candidate is lying to the public about the situation in Iran, the candidate should not be President. It's that simple.

You think the Iranians don't know where Clinton is coming from? You think the Iranians don't know how beholden Hillary is to AIPAC and the rest of the Zionist thug groups? You think they haven't examined all of her position statements on Israel and the Middle East - and her vote for the Iraq war?

The Iranians know who Hillary is. They knew who Bill Clinton was. They know who Bush is. And Cheney. And the rest of the scum running the US. They aren't going to trust one single US politician who doesn't offer a grand bargain concerning security guarantees against regime change, getting out of Iraq, and a serious push for resolution of the Palestinian issue.

None of which Hillary has ever even mentioned. In fact, her public positions are just the opposite.

The issue isn't whether Giuliani gets in or Clinton gets in. The issue is whether either one will start a war with Iran. And the answer is: both of them will do so because both of them are coming from the same foreign policy perspective. The only difference is how FAST either of them will start that war. Giuliani will get one going in his first 100 days. Clinton might take six months.

Big fucking deal. Especially since Bush is likely to start it before leaving office anyway.

Then the question becomes: which candidate will get us OUT of the war in Iran? Giuliani? Hardly! Clinton? Based on what evidence?

Shouldn't you point out the irony of Peter Beinart writing the article before delving further into the substance of it?

Just checking :)

Mr Hack, if Iran does not have the intention to develop nuclear weapons then Hillary's job is even easier. Right? I am not sure that is true, and a lot of sources as disparite as the UN, Russia, and our European allies think otherwise and remain suspicious of Iran. You are not suspicous at all? Fine, but still, whether it is an easy job in that Iran does not want to develop nuclear weapons, or a tough job in that they do, who is better qualified than Hillary Clinton to see to it that Iran remains nuclear weapons free in the future?

Like I said, I like all the democrats and would vote for any of them, but the issue here is foreign policy and here I see Clinton as our best choice.

Who is better qualified, smarter, a harder worker, more dedicated with more charm and stature, and can get off to a running start the first day in office but Hillary Clinton? She has her faults but her good qualities far outweight her weaknesses.

if Iran does not have the intention to develop nuclear weapons then Hillary's job is even easier. Right?

Yes, that's why our job in Iraq has been so easy. Imagine how bad things would be if Saddam had actually had WMD.

It ought to be obvious by now that if you waste your time fighting shadows instead of engaging real threats then you put the country in greater danger. Since we've been distracted with the Iraq and now Iran; the Taliban has been resurgent in Afghanistan, al Qaeda is rebuilding and recruiting; Turkey, Indonesia, Britain, and Spain have been attacked by terrorists; nuclear armed Pakistan is losing control of territory; Russia is rebuilding a Soviet style state; China is asserting itself in Asia; and the Cold War is back on.

And you're worried about Iran?

I see that HRC's Ken is on this blog too ;-) He must get paid from the HRC campaign headquarter to blog their 'talking points'. Interesting job - reminds me of the paid White House basement crew employed by Rove to post on Yahoo boards for the Bush Admin.

As a free and open minded Independent I still am trying to find someone who will blog a point that will convince me of all this 'experience' and 'qualification' that Hillary is suppose to possess??? I find her to be a "divider" that uses political rhetoric for what she thinks the voters want to hear. In my opinion, HRC is also showing signs of hitting the panic button that she just might not be the inevitable candidate. She (and Bill) thought, after Bush, this was going to be a cake walk back to the White House.

It's not only 9/11 that changed this country, but 8 years of GWB have made voters (especially the Independents) closely scrutinize the candidates before giving their support. It's a "new" kind of electorate and, I agree w/Obama, HRC is playing the political game of the 90's.

Every day I find Obama gaining strength and wisdom - this will be good for a country that finds itself facing the "mess" Bush leaves

The truth is Iran having a nuclear weapon is not a threat to us foreign policy and a politician that says differently is lying. Repetition has made it true in our minds but reality is that Iran is not a threat to us neither will they be anytime soon (ever).


Comments closed December 12, 2007.

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