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Team Obama

02 Nov 2007 12:20 pm

I don't really want to just quote an excerpt this long, but James Traub really nails the difference between Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton in terms of their supporters in the world of foreign policy:

The United States has had only one foreign policy and one national-security strategy since the transforming events of 9/11 — and this set of doctrines has been shaped by the very distinctive worldview of George W. Bush and Dick Cheney and the men and women around them. The great project of the foreign-policy world in the last few years has been to think through a “post-post-9/11 strategy,” in the words of the Princeton Project on National Security, a study that brought together many of the foreign-policy thinkers of both parties. Such a strategy, the experts concluded, must, like “a Swiss Army knife,” offer different tools for different situations, rather than only the sharp edge of a blade; must pay close attention to “how others may perceive us differently than we perceive ourselves, no matter how good our intentions”; must recognize that other nations may legitimately care more about their neighbors or their access to resources than about terrorism; and must be “grounded in hope, not fear.” A post-post-9/11 strategy must harness the forces of globalization while honestly addressing the growing “perception of unfairness” around the world; must actively promote, not just democracy, but “a world of liberty under law”; and must renew multilateral instruments like the United Nations.

In mainstream foreign-policy circles, Barack Obama is seen as the true bearer of this vision. “There are maybe 200 people on the Democratic side who think about foreign policy for a living,” as one such figure, himself unaffiliated with a campaign, estimates. “The vast majority have thrown in their lot with Obama.” Hillary Clinton’s inner circle consists of the senior-most figures from her husband’s second term in office — the former secretary of state Madeleine Albright, the former national security adviser Sandy Berger and the former United Nations ambassador Richard Holbrooke. But drill down into one of Washington’s foreign-policy hives, whether the Carnegie Endowment or the Brookings Institution or Georgetown University, and you’re bound to hit Obama supporters. Most of them served in the Clinton administration, too, and thus might be expected to support Hillary Clinton. But many of these younger and generally more liberal figures have decamped to Obama. And they are ardent. As Ivo Daalder, a former National Security Council official under President Clinton who now heads up a team advising Obama on nonproliferation issues, puts it, “There’s a feeling that this is a guy who’s going to help us transform the way America deals with the world.” Ex-Clintonites in Obama’s inner circle also include the president’s former lawyer, Greg Craig, and Richard Danzig, his Navy secretary.

The first of the Clinton people to notice this rising political star was Anthony Lake, national-security adviser in Bill Clinton’s first term. Lake says that he was introduced to Obama in 2002 when the latter had just begun considering a run for a Senate seat. Impressed, he began contributing ideas. When Obama came to Washington as a senator and joined the Foreign Relations Committee, Lake continued to work with him on occasion. Like others, Lake was impressed not so much by Obama’s policy prescriptions as by his temperament and intellectual habits. “He has,” Lake says, “the kind of mind that works its way through complexities by listening and giving some edge of legitimacy to various points of view before he comes down on his, and that point of view embraces complexity.” This awareness of complexity felt like a kind of politics itself and a repudiation of the Bush administration’s categorical thinking.

Obama spoke out against the impending war in Iraq in the fall of 2002; and those members of the Democratic establishment who, like Lake, also opposed the war came to view him as a kindred spirit. Susan Rice, a former assistant secretary of state in the Clinton administration who, along with Lake, heads up Obama’s foreign-policy team, says, “You were considered naïve, wrong, weak, stupid to oppose that war.” Hillary Clinton (and John Edwards) voted for the war. Obama’s opposition to it showed Rice “a willingness not to be bound by conventional wisdom and the well-trod path.”

This is all quite right. And it's important to recall that this hawk/dove split and the elite/rank-and-file split have some causal interaction. Back in 2002, the Democratic establishment found itself trapped in this vicious cycle. Most rank-and-file members of congress were ready to oppose the war. But the leadership in the House and the Senate was backing it. And the campaign committees were advising challengers and vulnerable members to back it. And the conventional wisdom said that anyone who wanted to be elected president had to back it. And so were most of the media celebrities focusing on foreign policy — Holbrooke and Albright and Pollack and O'Hanlon. In part, political leaders backed the war because these "experts" were backing it, and in part the celebrity experts were backing it because the politicians they were courting were backing it.

But it all blew up in everyone's face. The war was, substantively, a disaster. And it became hard to take advantage of the disaster because so many leading Democrats had backed it.

And in foreign policy terms, though Clinton certainly counts some war opponents and some younger rank-and-file people, she and her campaign fundamentally represent continuity with that seem set of political and policy elites who were running the show in 2002 and 2003. Obama represents a break from that; a turn toward people who think a different way, who probably aren't as famous but just might know what they're talking about, and perhaps even more important than that to people whose thinking isn't hobbled by an unwillingness to break with past positions.

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Comments (27)

My question is, what features of the Obama foreign policy assure that its results will be better than the results of the Carter foreign policy? Because, on the surface, they sound a lot alike.

A related question is, what features of the Obama foreign policy assure that it can be continued after the next 9/11? Because the country was not at all in the mood for that touch-feely stuff on 9/12. Just like the country wasn't in the mood for getting over the "inordinate fear of Communism" after the invasion of Afghanistan. And if the policy can't survive another 9/11, that means that someone else now decides our policy.

Why do I feel a bit of reluctance to take my direction from the "200 or so" professional foreign policy people on the Democratic side?

Such a strategy...must recognize that other nations may legitimately care more about their neighbors or their access to resources than about terrorism; and must be “grounded in hope, not fear.” A post-post-9/11 strategy must harness the forces of globalization while honestly addressing the growing “perception of unfairness” around the world; must actively promote, not just democracy, but “a world of liberty under law”; and must renew multilateral instruments like the United Nations.

How does any of this gobbldygook differ substantively from Bill Clinton's approach? I recall a real willingness to take into consideration the perceptions and perspectives of other nations. I recall conservatives being apoplectic over Bill's supposedly excessive apologizing. I'm not saying Hillary's approach would be the same as Bill's, but I suspect it would be pretty similar, and I certainly think getting back to a Clintonesque approach to foreign affairs would pay massive dividends for America. Which of you wouldn't sleep more peacefully at night if Bill Clinton were still running American foreign policy?

Now, Hillary's vote for the war is obviously a black mark in a lot of people's minds. There's no getting around that. If it's a deal breaker for you then it's a deal breaker for you. But other than that, how in a nutshell would the changes that an Obama presidency would bring differ from a Hillary Clinton presidency's changes? I don't see much difference (admittedly, though, I don't follow foreign policy as carefully as I should).

A related question is, what features of the Obama foreign policy assure that it can be continued after the next 9/11? Because the country was not at all in the mood for that touch-feely stuff on 9/12.

Th difference between a leader and a demagogue is that a leader will try to guide the will of the people, rather than merely exploiting it.

Actually almost none of the Dems "backed" the war-they claimed to believe W's lie that the authorization vote was the best way to avoid war, and they did it out of the simple political calculation that they could not afford, in a post-911 political environment-to stand up to Bush on this issue. It was a cynical political calculation, and at least from the vantage point of 2007 a foolish one. (But given the behavior of the MSM at the time which treated everything Bush said as gospel, the decision looks less foolish, if no less cynical. Asking those with Presidential ambitions to vote against the authorization is like saying Truman should have fired MacArthur before the debacle at the Yalu; true but unrealistic.)

My point is that apart from Lieberman there is no serious reason to believe that any Democratic President would have invaded Iraq after 9/11, or that any Democratic President would start a war with Iran (assuming W. doesn't start one first). The real Democratic hawk/dove split is almost entirely confined to commentators rather than actual policy-makers. A President Hillary would get us out of Iraq in her first term for the same reason she voted for the authorization for Bush-because it is in her political self-interest to do so. The differences between a President Obama and a President Hillary on foreign policy are (in my estimation) going to be rather minor: both will pursue essentially Clinton I policies (and Bill was rather popular abroad). The same is true of Edwards or Richardson. The real differences are not in the policies they will pursue, but in their judgement of what language will sell with the voters.

And I say this, btw, as someone for whom Hillary is my last choice for the nomination among those four. But Hillary is not going to be a continuation of Bush foreign policy, and Obama is not going to be a big break from a Clinton foreign policy. And we all shoulod recognize that.

We don't know for certain how HRC would act as President, but there is good reason to fear that she would be more hawkish, in rhetoric as well as substance.

The contexts of their presidencies would be completely different - Bill taking office after the downfall of communism, when domestic concerns began taking a higher priority and foreign policy issues placed more on the back burner. This gave him more flexibility to act.

Hilary would take office in the post-9/11 world and all that Bush has wrought. Also, she has demonstrated that she is willing to speak more hawkishly than the rest of the Dem candidated to mute any concerns that, as a woman, she will not be tough enough.

It would be pretty simplistic to think that Hilary's presidency would simply be a continuation of Bill's presidency. Even if Bill took office again, it would be pretty simplistic to think he would simply continue in the same way.

This is a good profile.

As for the differences between Obama and Clinton on foreign policy, the major factor in my mind is that the two of them just have fundamentally different temperaments, personalities, orientations. Their foreign policy strategies would probably be similar at the outset, I agree, but the real test is when a crisis situation occurs and the President has to make a series of difficult, hugely important decisions. And at the end of the day I believe that Obama is significantly more likely to make the correct decisions than will Hillary. Their different groups of advisers plays into this dynamic as well.

A related question is, what features of the Obama foreign policy assure that it can be continued after the next 9/11?

I think the point is not how resilient a particular foreign policy happens to be to a major crisis like the next 9/11, because the consequences of that attack are unforeseeable. The point is what kind of *new* foreign policy the President would initiate after the next 9/11. And again, I think there would be a clear difference between Obama and Clinton there.

Obama himself makes the point clearly at the end of the profile:

Obama finally leaned back to nap, and I went across the aisle. I was telling Gibbs my theory that Americans might be looking for a president whose protection they can huddle under when Obama opened an eye. And as he resumed the conversation, the frustration of months of pedaling hard and getting nowhere began to show. He wanted to know what kind of experience Clinton supposedly had that he didn’t, and what kind of crisis she was supposedly better suited to than he, and why “toughness” had become a stand-in for experience, and how Clinton could get credit for it when she failed to stand up to Bush on the Iraq vote. We batted all this around. Finally he said, “Ask Nye why Hillary’s paint-by-the-numbers foreign policy makes her more qualified to handle a crisis when for most of our history our crises have come from using force when we shouldn’t, not by failing to use force.” I promised that I would.


And I did. Nye is writing a book about leadership, and he said he had learned that at moments of crisis a leader’s key attribute was the “tacit knowledge,” usually acquired from prior experience, that allows him (or her) to “shape the crisis by asking the right questions.” I said that Obama wanted to know how Clinton had acquired this experience. “By osmosis of going through this,” Nye said, though he conceded that he wasn’t sure tacit knowledge could in fact be acquired osmotically. And he added that he had great respect for Obama. “It is,” he said, “a 51-49 type of distinction.”

"Tacit knowledge" just means judgment. The critical question has always been, who has the best judgment? There are other questions, obviously: who is the best leader, who is most competent, who has the most experience, who is most savvy, etc. But when it comes to foreign policy crises--and we have to expect that some sort of a crisis will happen sometime in the next eight years--it is all about judgment.

I think blah is mistaken about the similarity of the candidates foreign policy potential. Sure, we wouldn't be in Iraq if Al Gore had been elected president. But foreign policy provides the opportunity for all kinds of surprise developments around the world. You can just look at the isse we face immediately and concluce that Obama and Clinton's responses would be similar. You also have to imagine who's response you would prefer when something unexpected happens. And I think Hillary is clearly staking out a more hawkish, less intelligent position.

I agree with you mpowell. I was trying to rebut the suggestion that we should feel comfortable about HRC's foreign policy because it would just be a continuation of Bill's.

I see, within the commentaries, reasons to put Obama in State and Clinton in the White House.

We would get an experienced battle hardened leader in Clinton and a visionary realist in Obama. Clinton in the White House would have a better chance of achiving Obama's vision, if he were to accept the State Department portfolio, than Obama would be of achieving it on his own as President. The conservatives would kill him, just kill him. With the power of the presidency Clinton can protect and nurish people like Obama by directly engaging with the conservatives herself, and defeating them.

Once the nominee is chosen I hope she sees the wisdom in this.

The thing that is so gross about HRC and Romney and the other triangulators is that in the end, if you want to support them (as in who they actually are), you essentially have to hope that much of what they say as candidates is bullshit. For example, Matthew Yglesias kinda prefers Romney over Rudy and McCain because he suspects that buried beneath Mitt’s despicable Christian pandering and record-setting flip-flopping is a moderate, smart executive who probably wouldn’t ban gay marriage or reverse Roe v. Wade or double GITMO, whereas Rudy actually is crazy and would bomb the entire Middle East if Podhoretz tells him to. Same with Hillary. Many of us despise her authorization of the Iraq war, despise the way she’s acting like a hawk in order to seem experienced and strong, and despise that she is campaigning so obsessively that she can’t answer the simplest questions about archives and driver’s licenses. Yet we’re supposed to just trust that in the end she actually won’t be a hawk and she actually will have answers to the simplest questions and that she’ll actually just let her husband guide us back to the salad days of peace and prosperity.

No thanks. Time to the turn the page, not only on recent U.S. politics but on this psychotic, cynical way of governing and leading.

I am looking at this from abroad. The great weakness in US foreign policy is that its gurus in the FP establishment have basically got it wrong. From various parts of the world you are not seen as a particularly perspicacious lot. Sure you have a lots of insttiutes, centres and foundations. You put out a lot of guff using all kinds of technical terms. Lots of scenarios. But the thinking is so infected by money and ideology that at the extremes they remind me of the Soviet Union. I come away with the impression, after attending some of these meetings that you are basically decent people taking upon yourselves the task of leading us and protecting Democracy. The pity is that you have allowed its great aspects to wither at home because you appear unable to reign in the dictatorial impulses of the two main actors in the Maison Blanche.

Enough of these profound musings. Get down to actually doing something like getting out the votes. All this reflective stuff is just that, stuff.

tinisoli,

When, pray tell, has this "psychotic, cynical way of governing and leading" ever NOT been the case?

I support Obama and agree that he represents the best chance to rectify our horribly failed foreign policies under Bush, but the continued railing against the "foreign policy" class based on fact that some (though far from all) did not vociferously oppose the war in Iraq is silly and overblown.

Iraq did pose a problem. Many of the people the netroots community decries so vociferously now (e.g., O'Hanlon) actually pointed out a number of potential problems with the invasion. It all seems like a huge diversion to me. Perhaps Pollack gave Senators cover to vote in favor of the invasion, but that played a miniscule role in the fact of the invasion (Bush was hellbent and Democratic Senators were cowed by supposed elecotral calculus) or the innumerable mistakes in implementation.

The key thing to me is that Bush's foreign policy has been off the charts horrible on so many counts it is almost impossible to list them all; while I support Obama, the idea that a H. Clinton Administration would be a mere continuation of Bush and that her affiliation with certain foreign policy analysts who aren't sufficiently anti-war proves this strikes me as shabby logic and overblown rhetoric. I am surprised that Matt, who is eminently reasonable on a number of hot button topics, buys into it.

(Btw, I -- unlike Matthew, I believe -- objected to the war from the beginning because I believed that Saddam was deterrable a la Waltz and Mearsheimer, Unnecessary War, Foreign Policy January 2003. I just don't think everyone who disagreed with me was a raving idiot or has high jacked our democratic system.)

Actually almost none of the Dems "backed" the war-they claimed to believe W's lie that the authorization vote was the best way to avoid war, and they did it out of the simple political calculation that they could not afford, in a post-911 political environment-to stand up to Bush on this issue. It was a cynical political calculation, and at least from the vantage point of 2007 a foolish one.

First, I think a lot more Washington Democrats are simply neoconservative hawks than you think. Hillary is clearly one.

But second, I think you are letting people who made this calculation off the hook. It wasn't a "foolish" cacluation. It was murder. That's right, murder. 3,500 brave American servicemembers, along with tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of Iraqis, are dead because of that vote. Anybody who deliberately killed those people because of a political calcuation is a murderer, plain and simple.

I'm frankly staggered by how blithe HRC is about her ignorance of the Middle East. She didn't educate herself before voting for the Iraq war and she's demonstrating that same ignorance with her support for Kyl-Lieberman. In addition, take that fatuous statement she made about the Israeli strike against Syria; she essentially admitted that she didn't know what the hell was going on, but was willing to take on faith that it was a worst case scenario based on murky information from the same anonymous, secretive, craptastic sources. Given the hellish morass we are in in the Middles East, I'm appalled at how ill informed Congress in general is about the area, but I certainly can't imagine that it's desirable to have a president who's so content to be uneducated and hawkish years after she should know better. People who can't appreciate the difference between HRC's arrogant ignorance and Obama's appreciation for complexity mystify me.

>First, I think a lot more Washington Democrats are simply neoconservative hawks than you think. Hillary is clearly one.

Um. Rubbish. She is clearly nothing of the kind.

As for the idea that politicians like Kerry and Clinton and Edwards are murderers, that makes the false assumption that their votes made the difference between going to war in Iraq and not going to war. But of course their votes made no difference at all in that regard.

This time I need to vote for a candidate that can win, it's been so long. I'm not a huge fan of the Clintons but if Obama is the dem nominee I fear he'll wither against the voracious republican slander like a soft boiled Kerry. Hillary can and will shove the slime back down their gullets. She may even be more Kennedy-esque than her hubby when she takes office.

Um. Rubbish. She is clearly nothing of the kind.

Hillary Clinton has supported every war over the past 35 years, supports the indefinite occupation of Iraq (with a "residual force"), and supports a hostile posture with Iran that will lead us into another war. She obviously believes in US imperialism backed by military force. Therefore, on warmaking, she is no different from the neocons.

As for the idea that politicians like Kerry and Clinton and Edwards are murderers, that makes the false assumption that their votes made the difference between going to war in Iraq and not going to war. But of course their votes made no difference at all in that regard.

This is wrong on so many levels. First it is wrong philosophically. The Constitution vests the war power in the Congress. When Congress votes to go to war, they are a responsible party for the war that results. And delegating that decision to the President is the same thing as supporting the war, because either way, the brave American servicemembers get killed.

Second, it is wrong on its merits. It would have made a huge difference if Hillary had voted against the war. She is very prominent. The Democrats provided cover for Bush's decision rather than calling him out. And anti-war voices were marginalized as a bunch of Michael Moore types and ANSWER types because mainstream Democrats supported it.

Third, if the vote really had no effect, why not vote "no"? What's the point of voting "yes" if it has no effect?

I refuse to let people off the hook for participating in the killing of 3,500 brave American servicemembers. Those people are DEAD because jerks like Hillary Rodham Clinton didn't have the guts to stand up and try to save their lives.

This time I need to vote for a candidate that can win, it's been so long. I'm not a huge fan of the Clintons but if Obama is the dem nominee I fear he'll wither against the voracious republican slander like a soft boiled Kerry. Hillary can and will shove the slime back down their gullets. She may even be more Kennedy-esque than her hubby when she takes office.

Why? Did you see the one debate that Obama was the primary target? (It was after the Pakistan and nuclear remarks). He batted down every attack, and in the end came at looking better than the ones attacking him.

Actually I've noticed he does best when he's on defense, since that's where he feels comfortable being more strong and forceful.

People assume that if a person isn't willing to go strong in proactively attacking, that means they'll also be weak on defense. But that's not necessarily true.

Maybe Obama should do more to make himself the target, so he can show his ability to deflect criticism.

"As Ivo Daalder, a former National Security Council official under President Clinton who now heads up a team advising Obama on nonproliferation issues"

Oh, yeah, that makes me real confident about Obama's ability to deal with nonproliferation issues.

This is the guy I called an idiot over at TPM - and got banned (the first time.)

Matt: "Obama represents a break from that; a turn toward people who think a different way, who probably aren't as famous but just might know what they're talking about,"

Ahem, no. Daalder does NOT know what he's talking about. Neither is he a "break" from anything. He's another "Truman Democrat" that wants to intervene everywhere in the world and continue to screw things up to the detriment of this country's true national interests.

And if Obama continues to label Iran a "serious threat", then HE doesn't know what he's talking about.

Clinton may be an arrogant, ignorant asshole, but Obama is equally ignorant, despite his penchant for "nuances", and he is clearly a "morally superior asshole."

And there's nothing worse than an asshole who thinks he's "morally superior".

Obama is the only way to move forward. HRC will continue our present strategy, just less stupidly than GWB. Obama promises an actual shift in strategy. People in these comments who pretend otherwise aren't paying enough attention.

>>In part, political leaders backed the war because these "experts" were backing it, and in part the celebrity experts were backing it because the politicians they were courting were backing it.


Richard Steven Hack You're worried about Obama's choice of Ivo Daalderl, what of all the old circle jerkers that stayed with Clinton? >>And so were most of the media celebrities focusing on foreign policy — Holbrooke and Albright and Pollack and O'Hanlon.

ken-You think the right wing would kill Obama? Did you live through the Clinton years and understand just how stone wallish the hard right was on anything Bill proposed? Think that would change with gender?

Korha >>There are other questions, obviously: who is the best leader, who is most competent, who has the most experience, who is most savvy, etc.


Overall, I believe we need to try to remember how the world looked at the US...or as Obama put in in one of the two feature pieces...*will they look up at the helicopter over their land with wonder or with hate?*.

Do we want to stick with being looked at with hate or are we willing to try to work toward being looked at with wonder?

It's not the sticklers of policy details, it's the overall philosophy.

I find Obama's predominence among the younger half of the 200 a bit underwhelming. Especially since in substance he's been less progressive and innovative than the Edwards policy team, as I argue here:

* Edwards has rejected the GWOT idea, Obama has accepted it.
* Edwards has rejected the training farce in Iraq, Obama has not.
* Edwards has lead on Iran, Obama co-sponsored a bill to declare a part of a foreign government a terrorist organization (the Revolutionary Guard) for the first time in US history and knowingly missed Kyl-Lieberman.
* Edwards also proposed a formal multi-lateral organization to counter terrorism, CITO, Obama has no similarly innovative counter terror proposals.

Davis, don't assume I'm a Clinton supporter. I'm not. Her crowd is worse than Obama's (let alone the Republican crazies), I agree.

I'm just saying Matt's - or anyone's - enthusiasm for Obama is misplaced.

and must renew multilateral instruments like the United Nations.

The UN, contrary to the opinion of PNAC and AEI, is not evil or unnecessary.

However, the UN is now unreliable and essentially a charade. The UN offers little dialogue--only grandstanding. It has no status as a hegemon, no power but what the US allows it (which is not to suggest that the US should submit to UN rule or delegate more power). Therefore its decrees are sometimes non-binding even when binding; when France was caught cheating in the Oil-for-food program, it's not as if the UN was about to impose sanctions.

As for votes, countries tend to vote in factions: OPEC, the countries that are afraid of Putin, a bunch of developing countries that sell their votes to us, and Europe (which sometimes seems to take the enterprise a little seriously, but basically sticks with what the US says).

Liberals often complain that sparsely populated states like Utah get the same Senate Representation as NY. It's a decent point, irrelevant of the motivation for bringing it up. That "problem" is magnified a hundred-fold at the UN.

Imagine the US Senate was comprised of ten honest senators, ten senators from the KKK, ten Senators from the Mafia and seventy votes for sale to the aforementioned thirty and it becomes easy to understand why the UN is disfunctional.

Renew the status of the UN absent a Soviet Union for most of the world to rally against?

I won't say it's impossible, I'll just say good luck with that.


Comments closed November 16, 2007.

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