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The Epistemology of Electability

09 Nov 2007 08:23 am

Isaac Chotiner points to some noteworthy data:

A late-October Quinnipiac University survey underscored this point. Nationally, it showed Clinton being edged out by former New York City Mayor Rudy Giuliani, 45% to 43%, within the margin of error. In red states, however, she ran behind him, 49% to 40%, and she trailed, 47% to 41%, in the purple ones. By comparison, Illinois Senator Barack Obama beat Giuliani by a single percentage point (43% to 42%) nationally but held that same margin in the purple states and came within 6 points (45% to 39%) in the red ones.

Isaac's afraid. I don't know what to think. If you think of "electability" as a pure dispositional property, then I think it's pretty clear Obama has more of it. It shows up in the early polls, in the pretty clear-cut fact that he's a more compelling public speaker, and in the anecdotal sense that he has an easier time of making people who disagree with him on important issues nonetheless decide they like and respect him (see, e.g., Andrew's Obama story for The Atlantic). This is an interesting and important fact about the election.

Still, one suspects that progressives primarily care about who's most likely to win the election and Obama's promising raw material is only part of the story. Some Democrats I speak to are very convinced that Hillary Clinton will be better both at taking punches from the right and at punching back. Certainly, most everyone (myself included) is impressed with the quality of the campaign she's run thus far. And this stuff counts. Nobody's so charismatic that opposition attacks will just bounce right off them. Now in DC people talk this stuff to death, and my basic take is that plausible arguments can be made both ways and the answer is just unknowable. An unsatisfying conclusion, perhaps, but good enough for a blog post.

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Comments (61)

"Now in DC people talk this stuff to death, and my basic take is that plausible arguments can be made both ways and the answer is just unknowable."

Ugh. Just because vaguely plausible arguments can be made on both sides doesn't make both arguments are equally plausible.

Edwards, and to a notably lesser degree Obama, are pretty obviously more electable candidates than Clinton. And for the precise point that Chotiner makes - that their strengths are better focussed geographically.

And, of course, this matters even more for Congress than it does for the WH.

"Certainly, most everyone (myself included) is impressed with the quality of the campaign she's run thus far."

You just ought to stop writing about politics.

Clinton has taken a primary campaign that was hers to lose, and is doing everything in her power to do just that.

I think they've run a stunningly bad campaign so far.

Democratic primary voters place a lot of emphasis on electability, but I wouldn't say that's particularly a hallmark of progressives.

And I'll just repeat what I wrote in the previous electability thread:

And more broadly, why do folks have so much trouble wrapping their minds around the fact that Northern candidates run at a severe disadvantage in Presidential general elections? It's the single strongest and most immutable law predicting success over the past several generations.

Matthew seems to think the serious candidates for President consist of Clinton, Obama, Giuliani, and Romney. What's missing here?

Why do folks in the capital have such trouble sussing out what matters in the provinces?

I don't know how you can write this post without recalling John Kerry's much vaunted "electability" narrative from 2003.

The problem with talking about "electability" is that it's almost inherently unknowable. The way we measure strengths and weaknesses before the battle can be--and often is--entirely out of touch with the challenges the candidate will face. And by focussing on electability, we start to favor candidates who we think the other side and the mysterious swing voters will like. But outsider calculations of that variable are notoriously unreliable. (Who would have thought that Giuliani would be where he is today? Or that John Kerry's record of service would not be a net positive with Republicans and swing voters?)

So maybe it would be better to just figure out who's the best for the country and advocate for him or her on that basis.

Matt makes the key point: you're only likable until they start to smear you. Then how do you react? Obama won't attack back, and we know (as much as you can know anything in the social world) that this is a recipe for failure. Clinton will attack back, and if you believe her detractors, she's vicious and effective. That's what I want.

Obama's novelty, besides the obvious, is that he's an intellectual in politics. That's great, but there is absolutely zero evidence that it works at the presidential level and if you really think this election is important, you can't just take a gander on him because he's (ooh!) "transformational." And don't get me started on how his notion of transcending the partisan division effectively concedes the terrain to the Republicans, by accepting their phony narrative.

I agree with Petey (if I'm reading him right) that Edwards should be included in these discussions. He's a stronger candidate, substantively and in political skills, than Obama. He has shown an ability to dish it out, but I worry about his ability to take it.

Right now Obama is mostly a black box on which lightly informed voters can project whatever they want. In the general election, he'll have to fight back vs Republican attempts to smear and define him as an extremist surrender monkey hippie who wants to turn America into a communist country where Islam is the official religion. Also Obama, a black man, has 0 chance of winning a single red state in the general election regardless of what current polls say.

I like Edwards' positions on issues like health care a lot but if he's so electable and charismatic, why didn't he beat out the tepid John Kerry in '04 and isn't leading this year?

Barring the unexpected (another terrorist attack next fall or a major scandal), any of these candidates should be able to win the Presidency easily next year. The electoral climate with a hugely disliked Republican lameduck President, a disastrous occupation of a foreign country, and a troubled economy is setup for a big Democratic win regardless of who is nominated.

Obama won't attack back, . . .

I doubt that's true.

Rudy is appealing to America's xenophobia and paranoia post-9/11. I think Bush provokes these sentiments independent of any real policy initiatives. His (and Rudy's) bellicosity is aimed at the U.S. public every bit as much as any message being sent our adversaries. Fear works. Mushroom clouds, anthrax spraying drones, suicide bombings in shopping malls, al Qaida slipping across the Mexican border hidden amongst the other threatening brown horde. I can envision Rudy riding this hysteria all the way to the White House.

"The problem with talking about "electability" is that it's almost inherently unknowable."

Again, electability isn't unknowable. It's just that there are vaguely plausible arguments that can be made on all sides.

But all of those vaguely plausible arguments aren't equally important.

The Clinton campaign's electability arguments - that she's been battle tested, that she won't make mistakes, and that 16 years in the public spotlight mean her negatives won't get any higher - certainly are vaguely plausible. They're just not the most important arguments.

Electability can't be proven to a doubting audience. But that doesn't make some electability arguments more important than others.

Nobody's so charismatic that opposition attacks will just bounce right off them

You're clearly too young to remember Reagan. For all his faults I'd say he filled this bill.

I like Edwards' positions on issues like health care a lot but if he's so electable and charismatic, why didn't he beat out the tepid John Kerry in '04 and isn't leading this year?

Because people like you don't/didn't support him - millions of you. Because people (presumably like you) have a negative default about him; that, despite being a strong candidate with policy positions you like, you're inclined, a priori, to not support him, for reasons which aren't entirely rational. Only you can answer your own question.

Kerry had a ton more money and institutional support in IA in '04 than did Edwards, and Edwards still almost beat him there; if the caucus had been a week later, he would've. The question is: why does the press and a large contingent of Dems, desperately not want to support the best candidate?

Perhaps it's because I don't follow the polls as closely as others, but it seems like they say contradictory things each time another one is released. Some days, it seems like Clinton is wiping the floor with Giuliani, even in some red states, but on others, it appears she'd have the fight of her life. The only lesson I can decipher is that it's going to be close no matter what, and perhaps that Giuliani's alleged blue state advantage is already being negated by the fact that it's so close. There might be a clearer way to look at it, but I haven't thought of anything.

Don't discount the power of the Village press to shape public perceptions of candidates (anyone remember Dean's "scream?"). They have their long knives already sharpened for Clinton, and they can't wait to dive in. The only question will be whether they can successfully kill the beast; we know for sure they will try.
These Versailles court jesters may be less eager to attack Obama; not only will they fear being called out as racists, but they even may be genuinely intrigued by his "transformational politics" message. After all, they're already trained to salivate whenever someone rings the BBB (Broder Bipartisan Bell).
In short, it's not the swing voters the campaigns have in mind, but the swing journalists. Scary as it sounds, the election could turn on the question of how energetically Chris Matthews, Tim Russert, et al., attack the Democratic candidate.

sorry, I misspoke a bit. The press is not supposed to 'support' a candidate. My point was that the press simply doesn't like Edwards no matter what. Same with lots of Dems. For some reason, Edwards has to do twice as well, with less money, bad press, etc. or else he's 'disappointing'. It's true, but not what I'd call 'rational'.

Edwards is the most electable candidate, and he would be the best, most progressive president.

Also Obama, a black man, has 0 chance of winning a single red state in the general election regardless of what current polls say.

Depending upon what you want the Dem coalition to look like in the end, if true, that might be a positive.

Edwards is the most electable candidate, and he would be the best, most progressive president.


Posted by Gore/Edwards 08

And yet you're for Gore?

Clinton is like the Democrats in general: living up to her caricature painted by the critics. In her case, one of a calculating and triangulating politician. If she cannot even please the base, there is no way she can convert the other voters.

I am not looking forward to eight more years of the a Republican administration, which appears to be more and more like the outcome of the 2008 elections.

"I agree with Petey (if I'm reading him right) that Edwards should be included in these discussions."

Included?

The overwhelming consensus of current polling shows Edwards running stronger than Obama and Clinton in popular vote general election polling, and much stronger than Obama and Clinton in Electoral College general election polling due to the regional factors.

Edwards is winning Oklahoma against all the GOP contenders right now, fergawdsakes.

In fact, in the face of the institutional tsunami that is the Clintons, the little amount of support that Edwards pulls in from elected Dems comes almost entirely from purple and red state elected Dems who desperately want Edwards at the top of the ticket instead of Senator Clinton in order to save their jobs.

Personally, I want 60 Senate seats, or close to that number, so we can get cloture on things. Look at where the pickup opportunities come from. Even with an enormous wind at our backs in 2008, there's no way in hell we get anywhere near 60 seats with Clinton at the top of the ticket.

2006 and 2008 are once in a generation House and Senate pickup opportunities. If we don't build up majorities now, we're unlikely to have better shots to do it coming down the pike.

"sorry, I misspoke a bit. The press is not supposed to 'support' a candidate."

No, you didn't misspeak at all. What the press is 'supposed' to do is irrelevant.

Sk

I admire all three dem candidates, and agree that barring a real or manufactured state of emergency, one of them will win next year.

Edwards has impressed me with his clarity and willingness to take actual positions -- he forced the whole health care issue. I feel that he threatens many power interests in the US, and wonder how much this has influence the obsessive 'haircut' story lines in the MSM.

Obama seems to me to be flagging. Like Kerry, he seems to feel that his intelligence and obvious capacity should translate into political momentum. I found his attacks on Hillary weakly-reasoned - there are better issues to come at her on than the ones he chose. It felt like something one of his big-buck consultants ran through a focus group.

Hillary is tough, smart, and experienced. The very qualities that make her less attractive to me - her close relationship with the corporate power elites and political sausage-making machinery - make her harder to beat.

It baffles me that anyone takes Guiliani seriously. Then again, it baffled me that a guy with 3 DWI convictions and a 'no comment' record on cocaine got installed as president in 2000. But anyone who lived under Guiliani in NYC can tell you - the man can't take criticism. He is vindictive, thin-skinned, and prone to heights of grandstanding and exageration.

W could at least be relied on to stumble through what's on the teleprompter and otherwise keep his mouth shut.

Mitt Romney's goons are going to put Rudy through the shredder. Even if his remnants win the GOP nomination, he may psychologically implode: remember, he abruptly dropped out of the 2002 senate race when the kitchen got a little hot. The other candidate was now-Senator Clinton.

The "electability" argument boils down to one thing, and it's not the quality of the candidate's respective campaigns or how they'll fight back against Republican attacks. It's this...

Almost every single piece of information, anecdotal and statistical, supports one position - that there are a non-insignificant number of voters who absolutely won't vote for Hillary but might vote for another Democrat.

Mike


"I don't know how you can write this post without recalling John Kerry's much vaunted "electability" narrative from 2003."

"Who would have thought that...John Kerry's record of service would not be a net positive with Republicans and swing voters?"

Maybe Kerry was the most electable candidate in '04. Maybe the others would have done worse. Although he made some campaigning mistakes, he did perform well in the debates. And, do we know that his record of service was not a net positive?

Just because he lost does not mean he wasn't the best choice, electability-wise.

I do think electability is a major factor. In my opinion, it is the major factor, given that the top three would all be good presidents. Its difficult to estimate electability, but we have to use our best judgement about it, and try to make good arguments to persuade others about it.


"I like Edwards' positions on issues like health care a lot but if he's so electable and charismatic, why didn't he beat out the tepid John Kerry in '04 and isn't leading this year?"

Nomination races are usually about support from the Beltway insiders of the party.

That's why Kerry beat Edwards in '04, and it's why Clinton is favored over Edwards in '08.

General election races are about something very, very different.

"The question is: why does the press and a large contingent of Dems, desperately not want to support the best candidate?"

The GOP party insiders are simply more focussed and interested in electability than Dem party insiders.

The GOP insiders favor salability over all other characteristics. They'd run Schwarzenegger if it were Constitutional.

The Dem insiders are more interested in maintaining position inside the court. They favor Kerry and Clinton because of how the administrations would be staffed.

Maybe Kerry was the most electable candidate in '04.

No. Kerry is a decent man etc. etc. etc., but was never very electable. To be electable (as opposed to 'electable') means being a good candidate in the broadest sense, which Kerry isn't and never has been; he even had trouble keeping his Senate seat in MA last time. Kerry was thought to be electable because he is a strapping war hero - Dems were scared of Rove and Bush, and made that fear patent by choosing a poor-but-war-hero candidate like Kerry. Naturally, Rove noticed this fear, and took advantage; as outrageous as the form of this advantage-taking took, it was also fairly predictable. The key is to not react (or 'pre-act') to the GOP. GET OUT OF THEIR FRAME. Make them react to *you*. Choose a good candidate who can set the agenda, and then fight it out on our terms, not theirs. Petey is exactly right in suggesting that '08 is the time to actually *win*, rather than the time to merely *not lose*. Political situations like this don't come along often, and we are insane to not seize it. IMO, if Dems don't seize it, we really don't deserve to win. Pity, if that's the case.

I'm almost certainly an outlier, but I'm never again going to vote for a Southern white male in a primary again. Edwards may have the best policies of the three, but I won't vote for him.

Because Clinton is female and Obama is black, I don't think anyone can predict the general election dynamics if one of them gets the nomination. I do think you can predict the general election dynamics if Edwards gets elected. Dems will win with something like a landslide, but Edwards's support will be pretty much exactly where the Democratic support has always been, and weak where it always has been.

Clinton or Obama, though, will be in uncharted territory. Large numbers of women or blacks showing up at the polling booths would have huge consequences in many places, some of them strange.

In any time other than when the GOP is self-destructing, a Clinton candidacy would be an uphill battle. Her negatives are still a big disadvantage relative to the other candidates, but the country's fatigue and even anger with the GOP is largely counteracting that. Where it's not are places the Democratic Party has little traction in, anyway.

And while I think that socially the fight against sexism hugely trails the fight against racism, I strongly suspect that for some weird combination of reasons a woman is more electable in the US than is a black man. Obama has good positives and low negatives now, but I'm not convinced this will continue to be the case if he gets the nomination. I think a lot of hidden racism will come to the forefront in that eventuality. It would be nice to be wrong, however.

So, all that said, it does seem like Edwards is not only the best candidate from a progressive politics point of view, he's also probably the most electable. So why do I refuse to vote for him? Because I want the epoch of the Southern white male's influence to come to an end. I desperately want it to come to an end. And I think that either a woman or a black President will have long-term profound influences on American culture in terms of anti-sexist and anti-racist progressivism. I think we need that influence. I don't believe that either would be an especially bad President, though I think from what I've seen Clinton will be the worst in terms of reversing the Bush administration's corruption of the office.

In my dreams one of these three—the credibly electable three—would, as President, aggressively prosecute former Bush admin officials and effectively destroy the GOP in a very deliberate and active campaign to do so. I think this moment in history provides that opportunity. I don't think, sadly, that anyone, perhaps not even Kucinich, would have the courage to actually attempt it.

The bottom line, though, is not the Iraq war. If it can't be the destruction of the GOP, it can be the destruction of the GOP as we've known it since Goldwater. At the very least there's an opportunity to permanently split the values conservatives from the fiscal conservatives from the Big Business conservatives. As Democrats, I think we should be looking to that big picture, and so should our candidates.

The problem with talking about "electability" is that it's almost inherently unknowable.

And in a particularly insidious way - it's not just unknowable beforehand, it's also unknowable after the fact. As Jim W. points out above, for all we know, Kerry was the most electable candidate. Maybe anybody else would have lost by twice as much as Kerry did.

That doesn't mean we shouldn't consider electability in deciding who to nominate. But we should probably go ahead and recognize that the discussion about it is going to be irredeemably speculative and counter-factual, and in the end we will never know who was right.

The one thing that can be said with any certainty is that if the Democratic candidate loses the general election, it will be obvious in retrospect that he or she wasn't electable.

But unless you are consulting with people from the year 2009 in the astral plane, I'd say that poll numbers, however imperfect, are our best metric.

Here are the poll results that I think define Hillary Clinton as a general election candidate... she's roughly tied with all the leading GOP contenders in North Carolina, Virginia, and Tennessee. But she's also tied in Ohio and Iowa-- states that it's difficult to imagine the Democrats winning the White House without.

And then there's this little nugget from Rasmussen Reports: "The same surveys show that while Clinton is attracting 18% of Republican women, she is losing an average of 20% of Democratic men to the Republicans."

A Clinton candidacy will flatten the Red/Blue divide we've read so much about. She generates a smaller regional gap and a larger gender gap. This means there will be more "swing states" than in elections past and makes her "electability" much harder to predict from historical data.

"I'd say that poll numbers, however imperfect, are our best metric ... A Clinton candidacy will flatten the Red/Blue divide we've read so much about."

I think you normally write smart comments, LaFollette Progressive, but this one is nutso.

Almost all available polling shows Clinton having a far bigger differential between her red state and blue state support levels than Edwards does.

And check this out:

“Says a purple-state Congressman who is nervous about holding onto his seat if Clinton is the nominee: ‘She certainly will get Republicans riled up. They will not only go out and vote against her--they'll stop off at their neighbors' house along the way and drag them to the polls.’ And another: "No one wants to talk about her down-ticket effect for fear she'll win," a purple state Democratic official says, "and she'll take it out on you."

Again, the only elected Dems who really seem to fear a Clinton nomination come from purple and red states and red congressional districts.

You can say Clinton will win the election. But I don't think it's conceivable to say that she'll flatten the red/blue divide.

If anything, her differential between NY or CA and OK or MO is likely to be as large or larger than Kerry's.

But unless you are consulting with people from the year 2009 in the astral plane, I'd say that poll numbers, however imperfect, are our best metric.

I don't agree. Most voters are not paying too much attention, so I don't put much weight in the Dem. vs. Republican poll numbers. I think a better guide is to evaluate the candidates performances in debates, campaigning, and messaging, etc. This is why my current thinking is that Clinton would probably have the best chance to win. Its hard to judge, though, given that the "typical" person out there is very different from me.

Also Obama, a black man, has 0 chance of winning a single red state in the general election regardless of what current polls say.

Keep in mind that the blatant and latent racism that presumably would be a problem for him in red states may not hurt him––he’s half white, remember––as much as it would hurt a darker or “blacker” candidate. Many people may feel that they can vote for Obama because he is adequately non-black. An anecdote: I spent a summer in south Florida ten years ago and shared a house with two Kansans and a French-Canadian. One day, while driving back from the Publix supermarket, one of the Kansans, out of the blue, described to me the difference between black people and “niggers.” His rationale was insane, and I'd never heard anything like it, but I suspect he’s now one of hundreds of thousands of white red-state Democrats or independents who probably would vote for biracial Obama even though they’d never vote for someone who looked or sounded “more black.” Personally, I have fairly standard distaste for Hillary and I grow weary at the thought of 4-8 more years of Clinton-style political theater, as much as I think she'd be able to right the ship fairly well. She is obviously the least electable of the big three because there are so many more dimensions to her unlikability. There’s some sexism, sure, but there’s also the Clinton history, the distrust of dynasties, the pandering, the phoniness, having it both ways on the "gender card"... and on and on and on. With Obama there’s... what? Maybe some racism? But what else? You needn’t do much research to determine that America’s general good feeling about him, however ignorant or baseless it may be in November of ’07, is much higher than its good feeling for HRC. Another anecdote: I spent a week on a commercial fishing boat out of blue-collar New Bedford, MA, with a dyed-in-the-wool reactionary conservative who listened to Fox News radio all day long in the wheelhouse while ranting about the government’s intrusion on his livelihood. He absolutely loathed “butch dyke Billary Clinton” and “John Kerry Heinz” but he’d watched the ’04 convention and he’d actually liked Obama. A lot. Couldn’t say why, but he did. If HRC is the nominee, that captain will spend next summer screaming his head off in the wheelhouse at the sounds of Hillaryspeak as edited by FNC, but if Obama is the nominee he will vote for him (or go fishing) instead of voting for the “phony” Mitt Romney or “New Yorker” Giuliani.

If we must have this "electability" approach yet again, instead of simply supporting the candidate each of us likes the most, I think the likability polls are the most instructive. It is suicidal to nominate the candidate who is most irritating and most despised and most divisive.

I completely disagree with the CW about Hilary's campaign. She turned her huge name recognition and her husband's popularity into tons of money and a huge lead from low-information voters. On the difficulty scale it rates a one or a zero. What has her campaign done that's been so applaudable? Failed to screw up? Mouthed inoffensive boilerplate?

Meanwhile, people are drawing inappropriate conclusions about Obama's willingness to fight Republicans based on his Democratic primary strategy. Actually, some very successful politicians have gone a long way being careful to let all the dirty work be done by surrogates. Ronald Reagan and G.W. Bush III, for example. I don't want to see Obama demonstrate his cojones by taking on people I basically agree with.

As for Edwards - he can't win. I can't even tell you why. Part of it is the deep traction the stupid smears have gained against him. Part of it is that Obama has stolen the "new thing/rock star" slot. Part of it is the Hilary/frontrunner suffocating blanket that he hasn't shown an ability to crack. Perhaps it's just that there's no way to get enough people to pay attention.
I think his policy positions are great and he'd make an okay president, but in person he never comes off as completely authentic. Hard to say why. I just don't get a good vibe.

It's possible that there's literally no way to get enough people to pay attention to upset Hilary, and that no campaign can beat being a popular ex-president's wife. It's too bad, because this guy is right:

Almost every single piece of information, anecdotal and statistical, supports one position - that there are a non-insignificant number of voters who absolutely won't vote for Hillary but might vote for another Democrat.

Just to defend myself from Petey's charges of nutso-ism, I should probably clarify that I wasn't referring to Clinton's electability vis a vis Edwards. I was comparing her to Gore, Kerry, and the ghosts of Democrats past.

I think Edwards would narrow the divide by making Red states more competitive without losing votes in Blue States. This is, indeed, why the Democrats tend to have the most success with Southern candidates. Clinton's "electability" is more tenuous than JE's because she's pulling in more votes from women in many Red states while also losing male votes in states Democrats have carried narrowly in recent elections. Thus, flattening the divide.

And this is backed up by the polls so far. She's made the Southeast more competitive, but she also makes the Rust Belt more competitive for Republicans.

Maybe a better way of putting it is that she flattens the Red State/Purple State divide. The most socially liberal states, like NY, MA, and the West Coast, are largely immune to the "Hitlery Clinton" culture war attacks. It's places where Democrats count on blue-collar male voters, like Pennsylvania and Wisconsin, that worry me.

As for Edwards...I think his policy positions are great and he'd make an okay president, but in person he never comes off as completely authentic. Hard to say why. I just don't get a good vibe.

I emphatically agree. There's something about him that seems inauthentic and pandering. Maybe he is just too emotive when he talks. I don't understand why Edwards supporters don't see this. Its funny how perceptions about people can vary so much.

Then again, Hillary Clinton has always seemed very likable to me (although as a politician she is a little bland). I don't get what it is about her that's supposed to be so grating.

I don't think Giuliani has anything more than a remote chance of becoming president - it's going to be awfully difficult for him to replace whatever votes Dobson takes with him with.

The harder he pushes to recapture social conservative votes, the more he'll alienate the social moderate vote. I just don't think there's a viable coaltion out there for him to cobble together, despite what current national polling indicates.

Independents aren't paying attention yet.

"Nobody's so charismatic that opposition attacks will just bounce right off them."

Ronald Reagan and Bill Clinton.

With Bill Clinton in particular, there seems to be some sort of myth out there that he was somehow particularly adept at dealing with personal attacks. That is completely wrong--he was TERRIBLE at it (from "I didn't inhale" to "I did not have sex with that woman" and everywhere in between). In fact, he was so terrible at it he managed to get himself impeached over bungling a scandal.

But precisely what happened throughout all these mismanaged scandals is that Bill's inherent likability eventually caused people to hold the attacks against the attackers and not him. It is powerful (and unsurprising) example of how politics is indeed a popularity contest.

On an unrelated topic: I think the best indication of whether race is a problem for Obama winning over "red state" voters is how people in Illinois but outside of Chicagoland (aka "downstate" Illinois) feel about Obama. If you are not familiar with Illinois, downstate Illinois is basically just like Indiana or Kentucky.

And handily, SurveyUSA did an approval poll in Illinois which not only included a bunch of crosstabs, but it also compared Obama side-by-side with Dick Durbin, an otherwise pretty popular Senator (and a white guy, if you didn't know). Here are the results:

http://www.surveyusa.com/client/PollReport.aspx?g=9acde2f2-da64-4175-bb54-121eaf30bb18

There is not a hint in those crosstabs of any significant racial effect: Obama is more popular than Durbin across the board, no matter whether you look among downstate voters, white voters, older voters, Republican voters, conservative voters, gun-owning voters, or on and on.

Case closed. Or at least it should be.

I don't know where people got this idea that Obama isn't good at defending himself. I refer you back to the debate after he had been attacked for his remarks on pakistan and nuclear weapons. That was one of his strongest moments in all the debates I believe. And he defended himself, and criticized those who were attacking him.

I think part of the problem is that Obama really hasn't been attacked that much in the debates, so people don't see his ability to deflect. Or at least they haven't seen it recently.

" in person [Edwards] never comes off as completely authentic. Hard to say why. I just don't get a good vibe."
I emphatically agree. There's something about him that seems inauthentic and pandering. Maybe he is just too emotive when he talks. I don't understand why Edwards supporters don't see this.

I have heard this many times, from other Dems/progressives I otherwise agree with about things. I see it, but don't buy it. As I said, it's not a rational reaction, just a 'vibe' or something that's 'hard to' explain. When the problem with a candidate is not his policies, not the chance for key change he represents, not his political skills, not his geographical favorability (except for Mr Ellis), but the fact that he's 'too emotive' and therefore can't possibly be sincere - not 'cool' or ironic enough...I wonder why people who are resolutely against him don't see *that* for what I think it is: frankly, silly. I mean, sorry, but it makes me question the seriousness of said progressives' commitment. FDR was a bit foppish, and ruthless, was percieved as a lightweight, made deals with southern racists, and even ran the first time as rather a moderate, among other things. Yet he had a real seriousness of purpose, and affected real change as few other presidents have. Isn't that seriousness of purpose - along with the ability to do something about it - what matters?

I'm not really questioning JimW's or anybody elses progressive bona fides, just wondering if some of us have kind of lost our way a bit. I mean, the country is in deep shit here....

I find Obama to be the truly inauthentic candidate. I also don't find him a good speaker. He is somewhat condescending and hems and haws all over the place. He tries to avoid a straight answer with too many uhs and pauses. When he travels to the south he puts on a completely phony y'all this and y'all that. To me his vibe is all jive.

Edwards is the only electable Dem. Supporters of Hillary and Obama are urban, sophisticated, educated coastal and northern elites. That is a demographic that already votes Democratic. You cannot win without attracting votes outside this demographic. Period. No amount of wishful thinking will change it. The blue collar voter with a pick-up and a gun rack isn't going to vote for HRC or BO. And they live in Maine and Pennsylvania and Michigan and Ohio, not just the south. Failure to understand voters outside your own milieu and take their point of view into account is stupid.

When he travels to the south he puts on a completely phony y'all this and y'all that. To me his vibe is all jive.
Everybody does that to some extent. If you spend some time in a region with a strong dialect or a different language, it’s pretty easy to start speaking like the locals without trying to do so—or even if you’re trying not to do so. It’s a pretty standard human response, and it’s an even more standard political ploy. I bet each candidate cringes a bit when they watch the day’s campaign video and hear themselves pandering in this way. What will be interesting to see is whether anyone tries to speak in Spanish. Might appeal a wee bit to Hispanics but it would likely infuriate Lou Dobbs and others of his ilk.
As for the ums and uhs, yeah, it can get a little boring, but my read on it is not that he’s avoiding a straight answer but that he’s thinking about his response rather than reciting boilerplate. Edwards is the smoothest, most compelling, and most talented speaker when scripts aren’t in play, and Hillary sounds to me like a robot. Anyhow, to each his own.

Not everybody does that tinosli.

I can't imagine Colin Powell going doing something that tacky. Or even Condi Rice. The man is superficial and the biggest phony I've ever seen.

Not everybody does that tinosli.

I can't imagine Colin Powell going doing something that tacky. Or even Condi Rice. The man is superficial and the biggest phony I've ever seen.

Why compare him only to Powell and Rice? What's the commonality? Oh wait...

Puccinella,

You are right about certain demographics living outside of the South, and in fact they live in much of Illinois. That is again why I would urge you to look at the following side-by-side polls, carefully examine the crosstabs, and then reconsider your assumptions about your "blue collar voter with a pick-up and a gun rack" being willing to support a Democrat like Obama:

http://www.surveyusa.com/client/PollReport.aspx?g=9acde2f2-da64-4175-bb54-121eaf30bb18

I cannot emphasize this enough: Obama has already proven that he can be popular outside of the core Democratic demographics. I know this is a surprising fact to some people, in that it contradicts their intuitions, but it should be a welcome surprise nonetheless.

I don't understand why anyone would think Clinton is better at "punching back" than Obama. The Clinton campaign's strategy in the primary has been to avoid punching back at all costs, and to respond to criticism from opponents by having surrogates criticize them for criticizing her and for "going negative"; avoiding the substance; appealing to party unity; and attempting to turn the attention immediately back to Republicans.

Hillary Clinton did in fact do quite a lot of public punching back during the Bill Clinton years. I would suggest that the public didn't much like her punching back style, and that's when she created all those high negative poll numbers. Her responses to criticism tend to be inept, graceless, insecure, irritable and irritating - sort of like a Democratic Bob Dole.

On the other hand, Obama executed a rather eloquent, hard-hitting and dignified punch back when he was criticized by John Howard:

"I think it's flattering that one of George Bush's allies on the other side of the world started attacking me the day after I announced. I would also note that we have close to 140,000 troops in Iraq, and my understanding is Mr Howard has deployed 1,400, so if he is ginned up to fight the good fight in Iraq, I would suggest that he calls up another 20,000 Australians and sends them to Iraq. Otherwise it's just a bunch of empty rhetoric."

Yes tinosli, Powell and Rice are also black but when they speak to an audience, black or white, in the north or south, they don't launch into some phony dialect they didn't speak growing up. Get a clue. When Obama speaks to a white audience he uses speaks standard English when speaking to a black audience he affects a black dialect. Total phony.

The poll you cite is irrelevant. An intra-state poll from Illinois about his Senate approval says nothing about his appeal on a presidential level outside his home state. Further, polls are unreliable with regards to race. Investigate the Wilder Effect or the Bradley Effect on polling.

How do you know that when Obama speaks to whites or to the MSM that he is not affecting a white accent? When someone uses different speech patterns or dialects, how do you determine which is the real one and which is fake? Do you think ANY of the candidates actually speak in private life the way they do on the campaign trail? Aren't they all phonies?

And how exactly does this one theatrical aspect of Obama, whether deliberate or not, make him a "total phony"?

Puccinella,

First, let me acknowledge at the outset that no evidence we collect will be perfect, because we are talking about an event that has not yet happened (Obama running in the general election for President). But that leads me to the obvious question: exactly what evidence are you relying on for your assertions about Obama? I haven't seen any yet.

Second, just a moment ago you were explaining that the sort of demographic cross-sections you identified exist across the nation, which is correct. As I pointed out, that is precisely why I think a poll in Illinois can be helpful--within Illinois we can find exactly those sorts of people and see what they think about Obama.

Of course, if I was just relying on Obama's overall numbers in Illinois, I would agree that would not tell us much. But I am doing much more than that. First, I am pointing you to the crosstabs in the poll, which do exactly what you requested: look at various demographic groups. Second, I am providing Durbin's numbers as well, which gives us a pretty useful point of comparison, since Durbin is a pretty popular Democratic Senator who happens to be white. And again, there is no hint in that comparison that Obama being black substantially weakened his support in any demographic group.

Finally, I am indeed familiar with the so-called Bradley or Wilder Effect. But are you familiar with the relevant studies of the polls conducted for the 2006 election? Those studies have found very little evidence of any Bradley/Wilder Effect. For example, here is a study from Pew:

http://pewresearch.org/pubs/408/can-you-trust-what-polls-say-about-obamas-electoral-prospects

So here is the bottomline, Puccinella:

I think the best evidence available suggests race is not a substantial problem for Obama, even outside the core Democratic demographics. I admit that none of the evidence I have given you is perfect, but I have in fact given you a detailed cross-section from Illinois with Durbin to use as a point of reference, and the Pew study to address the Bradley/Wilder effect.

But I will now give you an opportunity to cite the evidence that you are relying on for your assertions.

There's something about him that seems inauthentic and pandering. Maybe he is just too emotive when he talks. I don't understand why Edwards supporters don't see this.

You yourself cannot even identify what it is you don't like about Edwards - it's just "something about him" - and you are perplexed by the fact that no one else sees it?

It's funny how everyone reads what they like from the Kerry debacle.

Did people not see that he is an aloof Boston Brahmin ? That he spent his high school years in Switzerland ? That he went sailing with JFK ? That he married a billionaire widow ?

Were his war decorations really supposed to cover for all that ?


There is nothing in this story that says that electability is meaningless. It only says that people can be either ignorant of certain facts, or simply deluded.

DTM, the fact remains that a poll done in '06 regarding the popularity of a Senator who assumed office in '05 with very little track record and a lot of hype is meaningless.

The '06 data you mention involving Deval Patrick is irrelevant. Massachusetts has always been a great state in regard to race. Ed Brooke was a Mass Senator for a very long time. To rely on data from one election to conclude that race no longer matters is misleading.

At any rate, I think there is more to Obama's electoral problems than race. Obama is an effete whose career has been race centric. He just does not have the appeal of a square-jawed down-to-earth regular guy. Colin Powell had this sort of appeal and could probably transcend race in a way Obama cannot.

[Obama] is superficial and the biggest phony I've ever seen.

I'm obviously for Edwards, but I have to defend Obama here. He's not even in the *running* for 'the biggest phony' award. I too have noticed that he affects a more southern/black accent when he's in the south etc., but people really do tend to do that naturally - change their diction depending on who they're with. I don't care what Powell and Rice (Condi, not Susan) do.

I'd also say that the common use of the word 'phony' is rather arbitrary - it means only something you don't like. Show me a politician (or other person) utterly without artiface, and I'll show you someone who is probably not very sophisticated nor very effective.

"When Obama speaks to a white audience he uses standard English, when speaking to a black audience he affects a black dialect. Total phony."

This statement is governed by utter ignorance of the history of race and language in America.

Let's reverse a couple of verbs:

"When Obama speaks to a black audience he uses a black dialect, when speaking to a white audience he affects standard English. Total phony."

No one would accuse a black man of "affecting" the language of power. Black folks who want mainstream success are SUPPOSED to be able to speak "proper English." So instead you oh-so-subtly imply that Obama's not really black, that he dosen't have the right to speak black English.

How is that any of your fucking business?

If Obama wants to address black folks in a dialect that resonates with them, and he can command that dialect, why shouldn't he?

When Obama speaks to a white audience he uses standard English. When speaking to a black audience he uses a black dialect. End of story.

Don't get apoplectic metaleptic. If you did not grow up using that language, have parents who used it, you are affecting that language. Got it? It's pretense, artifice. Phony. I know it when I hear it.

People who believe Hillary Clinton is electable have convinced themselves that she's won people over and become more likable in the last 10 months. Is there any reason to believe that? She's still got the same polls that half the country won't vote for her and thats with a Republican nomination contest thats up in the air and Republicans attacking each other.

Obama says he will transcend the partisanship in Washington and bring Democrats and Republicans together. This might be relevant and doable for him in winning the General Elections, but what I find hard to understand is that how is he going to achieve that with the republicans in Congress to convince them to get the troops out of Iraq, get a universal health care plan etc.

I think electibility is important, but what is most important is who is going to be able to achieve the agenda that has been set out by each of the 3 main democratic candidates, and out of all 3 I believe Hillary has the best chance of getting things done once in the White House.

Puccinella,

First, I note you did not in fact present any evidence to support your claims, as I requested.

Second, that Illinois poll was taken two years after the people of Illinois elected him. In that time, those are the people who have gotten to know him best.

Third, the point of the Pew study was just that it appears that there is very little evidence from the 2006 polls to support the ongoing existence of a Bradley/Wilder Effect. For some reason you fixate on Massachusetts, but they looked at the polls in places like Ohio and Tennessee as well.

Fourth, there is also no evidence in that Illinois poll to support your claim that Obama comes across as "effete" (again I would point you to all the crosstabs).

The bottomline is that you are making a lot of assertions about how other people will feel about Obama, but as yet you have presented us with no evidence to support those assertions. In contrast, while no evidence will be perfect, I have at least presented evidence that speaks to the issue, and it shows the opposite of what we would expect if your assertions were true.

But if your mind is simply closed to the possibility that you are wrong, and you have nothing to add to your unsupported assertions, then I guess this is a logical place to stop.

MDRock,

The way for a President to work with a potentially hostile minority in Congress is to credibly point out that if they obstruct the President's bills, the voters in their jurisdiction may kick them out of office in the next election. Of course that won't work with all of them, but the President just needs it to work with enough of them to get a consistent majority in the House and 60+ votes in the Senate.

Which is why I find your claim a bit puzzling. Poll after poll shows that Clinton is easily the most polarizing potential nominee among the Democrats: Democrats like her a lot, but Republicans dislike her a lot. So, it will be hard for a hypothetical President Clinton to credibly suggest to Republicans in Congress that they are likely to experience an electoral backlash if they obstruct her bills.

DTM,

The way you suggest is one way of getting bills passed. I have not been keeping up with all the polls, but in talking with friends and colleagues, Hillary appeals because she is seen as a centrist, whereas Obama appeal is stronger with the left of the Democratic party.

I think, the other point in Hillary's favor, in getting her agenda passed when she is President is having worked 8 years in the Senate, she knows most of these folks personally. I believe she is smart and conniving enough to know exactly which buttons to push with which people to get her job done. One thing I have been impressed with Hillary is she does not seem to burn any bridges and that is important in politics. For e.g Tim Russert and Chris Matthews are so obviously hostile to her, but she always appears to control her answers and not appear hostile in return.

Sorry for the rambling answer, but despite what the polls suggest, I believe Hillary has a much broader appeal among the moderate dems, repubs and independents. The people most hostile to her appear to be the left and the extreme right.


Comments closed November 23, 2007.

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