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The LBJ Analogy

19 Nov 2007 10:51 am

Dave Roberts comes away impressed by Hillary Clinton:

She seemed somewhat muted Sat. evening, perhaps because she was slightly under the weather (I heard her people had requested tissues). Intentionally or not, her serious demeanor worked -- it played off the activist energy in the crowd and came off as hard-bitten, realistic, even, dare I say, presidential. [...] Effectively, she was saying, "I'm with you; I understand the problem. But you need to give me some room to work -- attacking those of us on your side for insufficient purity isn't helpful." [...] Clinton was by far the most responsive to specific questions. She argued in some detail for why she is uniquely able to accomplish something on this issue. [...] My impression -- and this was confirmed multiple times by various audience members I spoke to later -- is that Clinton had the best grasp of the political and policy details. She was the most comfortable speaking off the top of her head. As one political operative put it to me later, "she's always the smartest one in the room."

To me, this is the most convincing case to Clinton. Rather than Sean Wilentz's Stevenson versus JFK analogy, I would analogize it to Lyndon Johnson versus every well-known liberal politician of the 1950s and 1960s. There were dozens of politicians circa 1964 with better records of bold progressive leadership on the crucial issues of the day. And Johnson did little-to-nothing to actually create the great progressive opportunity of the '64 election. But in the wake of JFK's assassination and the Goldwater nomination and the decades of groundwork that had been laid by the Civil Rights movement and the progressive unions the opportunity presented itself. And at just that moment the country was led by a man who was an opportunist -- a veteran master of the political and legislative process saw the opportunity and seized maximum advantage of it.

But of course, you can't talk about Johnson without talking about Vietnam.

And this bothers me about Hillary Clinton in a way that extends beyond the mere argument-by-analogy. What Roberts recounts as Clinton's attitude toward the climate change issue -- she understands the problem, she understands the solution, and rather than telling advocates what they want to hear she's telling them that she also understands how to move the ball forward in concrete, realistic terms -- seems pretty appealing to me. And on climate change, health care, and most of the other big domestic issues, I believe that she does understand the problem and understand the solution. The left-right divide on those topics has relatively little to do with disagreements about desirable end-states. Rather, you mostly see disagreement about political possibilities, or even things that aren't disagreement at all, but just different politicians responding to different political circumstances.

On foreign policy, though, I have no idea what direction Clinton wants to take the country. Barack Obama, by opposing the invasion of Iraq from the beginning, by proposing a "grand bargain" with Iran, and by promising a return to our commitment under the Non-Proliferation Treaty to work toward the goal of complete eradication of nuclear weapons from the world has sent me important signals about his goals. He, like me, wants us to return to a policy grounded in international cooperation and efforts to strengthen international law and international institutions. John Edwards has staked out similar policy terrain and compensated for his bad earlier position on Iraq by boldly criticizing the "war on terror" concept.

Clinton, by contrast, hasn't done any of that. She's gestured in the direction of enhanced diplomacy with Iran, but her Foreign Affairs essay pointedly didn't pull full normalization of relations on the table as a potential carrot and she hasn't espoused a push for a "grand bargain." On nukes, she's taken the very odd middle path of joining Obama and Edwards in praising the Schultz/Perry/Kissinger/Nunn initiative while mischaracterizing what they say as a call for "reducing reliance on nuclear weapons" -- which just isn't what they said.

All of which is to say that while on health care and climate I believe that Clinton and her rivals all want basically the same thing, and that somewhat plausible arguments can be made that each of them are best-suited to achieve those common goals, it's really not clear to me on foreign policy. The Democratic Party hasn't historically been organized around a foreign policy doctrine. Joe Lieberman was run out of the party in 2006, but was the Vice Presidential nominee in 2000, and he can very plausibly argue that his views didn't change in those intervening six years and he's always been a knee-jerk hawk. Clinton's been politically savvy enough to talk a liberal talk, and for all I know would be substantively savvy enough in office to avoid foreign policy disasters. But she's also been careful to avoid committing herself to foreign policy liberalism as firmly as Edwards and Obama have, and for all I know she has radically wrongheaded ideas about national security on the merits.

When I read something like Josh Marshall bemoaning his disappointment that the Obama campaign hasn't done a very good job of making a forceful argument for why he'd be a better president, I sympathize. But I also think I should take my hat off to Hillary Clinton's campaign -- I think this has been less a failure on Obama's part, then cleverness on Clinton's. She's managed to position herself on foreign policy issues in a way that signals her differences with Obama very clearly to the tiny community of specialists while completely blurring them to the broader audience of voters. I'm not sure how this can be overcome, but I'm sure it can't be overcome by having writers further obscure the differences by focusing primarily on what a good job Clinton's done of obscuring them.

The basic reality is that each and every time the candidates stake out a position on something, Clinton takes a less-liberal line. Then each and every time Obama starts getting traction with the argument that Clinton is too hawkish, she backtracks and makes the argument that there's no real difference here. And it's true that if you look at any one thing with a microscope, the "no difference" argument can be made to stick. But it's the pattern that matters -- the initial support for Iraq, the more hawkish caste to her advisory team, the "naive and irresponsible" line, the meager carrots she's prepared to offer Iran, her weird position on nuclear disarmament, her campaign's courting of CANF and AIPAC, her vote for Kyl-Lieberman -- all point in the same direction and it's a frightening one.

It's hard to prove that Clinton would be a bad foreign policy president. And it might be hard to prove because it's not true. But it might be hard to prove just because she's done a good job of making it hard to prove. And I'm not comfortable taking that risk.

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Comments (46)

It's a question of whether you want to continue the politics of half-measures and settling for "the bill the committee will pass" or if you want leadership.

I guess some people like to settle. Good thing FDR didn't.

I think you're sort of right on the LBJ analogy, except that Clinton is no LBJ. She's not a master of the political stage even if she is 'more experienced.' Clinton's been in the Senate for seven years and those have been disappointing years for Democrats, in particular Senate Democrats. LBJ was elected in 1948 during a time of Democratic weakness in Congress, and seven years later... he was firmly in command of the entire place.


If you conclude that she understands the problems and solutions of various other issues, and if take take into consideration that her seemingly hawkish gestures are probably a political calculation and nothing more, then essentially she's no different than the other candidates on the merits of her positions. Furthermore, she becomes an even more appealing candidate due to the frightening competence of the campaign she has run. In order for me to be more comfortable, though, she'll have to select a Bill Richardson-type to be her running mate (i.e., somebody who supports immediate withdrawal with no residual forces). Also, however, if she is the master of political calculus people say she is, then there's little to worry about. No such person would take a war-weary nation to war for no good reason.

I sympathize with your frustration, but these are not concepts that are immune to simple political framing.

Hillary's foreign policy is the same old song.

It's Republican wine in a Democratic bottle.

It's rewriting the Bush Doctrine in Clintonese.

In other words, there's no reason the other campaigns can't overcome this difficulty. They just need to tie her to Bush.

Even if you don't want to go the Bush route, the objection can be included in the "two-faced" critique that gained traction with the drivers license issue. "There are some differences you can't split. I'm for diplomacy with Iran, Hilary can't say. I opposed the war, Hillary got fooled." And so forth . . .

How about this, shorter version?

The problem with Hillary isn't one of competence. It's one of vision. And after eight years of Bush radicalism, there's a feeling that 'politics as usual, just done competently' isn't enough.

Except that Obama has clearly shown that , and as much as Petey will protest, Edwards hasn't yet shown he can challenge Hillary up close and personal.

I think it's dangerous to take southpaw's approach, because that way lies President Rudy and the balcony, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be done.

Oops. Finish your thoughts, pseud.

Obama's shown -- and shows more every day -- that he's not up to the task of challenging Hillary substantively. It's embarrassing to see him digging up the Jeff Gerth muck. Have some damn policies that show you're different, or STFU.

Also, however, if she is the master of political calculus people say she is, then there's little to worry about. No such person would take a war-weary nation to war for no good reason.

The if-then construction is doing a whole lot of work in these sentences. Recall that from 2000 until 2005 or so, we all thought that Karl Rove was a master of political calculus.

pseudonymous in nc,

did you read matt's post? domestic policies don't mean shit, as clinton will come out a week later saying nearly the same thing in some equivocated way.

matt's point is important, but no one other than the intelligentsia is going to listen: the president has near dictatorial powers over our foreign policy, and hence those issues are the most important when picking a candidate. it's clear that any of the democrats elected will advocate similar issues domestically. but it’s not clear to me that they will advocate similar foreign policies, and that’s why i’m for obama.

Dos the left want to win the '08 general or nominate s sure loser that might be more ideologically palatable? That's the question.

http://www.political-buzz.com/

The exact same caution and carefulness that lets her avoid making mistakes in the primaries mean she won't try anything half as daring as LBJ
LBJ pushed hard for things believed in, Hillary would be more cautious to be sure she stays in office.

I think it's dangerous to take southpaw's approach, because that way lies President Rudy and the balcony, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be done.

Gee, really? Fascism?

All I was trying to say was that the self-same criticisms of Hillary that Matt is expressing are reducible into effective political language. The same tactics are not unknown to Democratic politics; it's the source of the "naive and irresponsible" stuff, for instance.

But if I somehow smoothed the path to il Duce Giuliani, I apologize. When they came for the campaign slogans, I said nothing, because I was not a campaign slogan . . .

Smartest one in the room? Hillary's damn smart, no question, but Barack Obama was editor in chief of Harvard Law Review. He's damn smart too. That's not the same thing as letting people know how smart you are, of course.

My impression -- and this was confirmed multiple times by various audience members I spoke to later -- is that Clinton had the best grasp of the political and policy details.

Richard Nixon was also an extremely bright lawyer with an excellent grasp of political and policy details. He knew how Washington and the world worked. He understood the intricacies of the complex springs and wheels of American political, economic and cultural power.

But that doesn't matter to progressives, because the ends toward which he wanted to put that knowledge and technocratic skill were not those shared by progressives (although Nixon's brand of conservatism looks positively socialist in comparison with the post-Reagan wingnut conservatism we have now).

The differences between the right and left on climate change, to take one of Matt's examples, simply are not just differences over what is politically possible. The right believes, on deep grounds of economic and political philosophy, that progress in every field of human endeavor is best advanced by the accumulated results of individual desire as it influences private market exchanges. They believe that the growth and accumulation of private desires for a greener world will translate into market demand that will produce that world. Entrepreneurship will lead us to grow our way out of the problem.

The left has instead argued, based on reference to prisoner's dilemmas and other private and social choice complexities, that vital large-scale social and global needs, representing major changes in our way of life, do not always just emerge from the workings of the invisible hand, but must sometimes be conceived, planned, organized, and executed with significant government mobilization and coordination of human energies. They believe that sometimes what is collectively optimal is not the outcome of individuals seeking to optimize their individual preferences through free market exchanges. A country does not defeat the Nazis and imperial Japan, for example, by standing back and letting the individual desires for a non-fascist world generate the market demand that produces a free market solution to the Nazi conquest of Europe.

Similarly, some of us think that the combined challenges of climate change and the depletion of traditional energy resources, trends which are rapidly degrading our environment and quality of life, and stimulating renewed state-to-state military competition, are so pressing that we need something like the moral equivalent of war to deal with them. We need activist government to help organize, execute a capitalize a plan for solving these problems, and the plan will involve a significant degree of government regulation of individual and corporate behavior.

This fundamental political contrast between right and left is certainly not at all just a difference over what is "politically possible". It's not like right-wingers are saying, "I would support a massive government undertaking if I thought it would fly politically." They don't want it to fly politically.

The message, "I'm on your side, but I understand the political realities require going slow and working toward the middle" is the constant refrain of centrist, establishment politicians in all eras - at least when they are chatting up the left. There is enough truth in it to make it perennially plausible. But if you really think Al From, Harold Ford, Evan Bayh and Hillary Clinton have secret left-wing hearts pumping beneath their pragmatic heads, you're as deluded as the Republicans.

LBJ actually had a fairly progressive voting history. He was first elected to congress on a New Deal platform, as majority leader passed the civil rights act of 1957, and was one of the three southern democrats that did not sign the southern manifesto of 1956.

Clinton's been politically savvy enough to talk a liberal talk, and for all I know would be substantively savvy enough in office to avoid foreign policy disasters. But she's also been careful to avoid committing herself to foreign policy liberalism as firmly as Edwards and Obama have, and for all I know she has radically wrongheaded ideas about national security on the merits.

1) Surely her reluctance to publicly support every item on the progressive foreign policy wish list has at least something to do with her general election strategy. It's simply not going to be easy for the Republicans to paint her as soft on defense. I think that's a good thing.

2) Can't we glean at least some idea of the likely course of a Hillary Clinton administration's foreign policy by looking at the first Clinton administration? Was that presidency really too hawkish, or was it insufficiently multilateralist? Yes, I realize Hillary is not a clone of Bill, but I personally don't believe their approaches will differ very greatly. I for one would be tickled pink to wake up tomorrow and learn the past seven years have been a bad dream, and in fact Bill Clinton's team was still managing America's foreign affairs.

What Clinton knows that Obama and Edwards do not is the first hand experience of the limitations of presidential power and the constituencies that will be arrayed against any substantive progressive policy initiative.

Obama and Edwards have been in the Senate and accomplished what? It seems like they think if they get more power, then they will really be able to cut loose and do things they want to to remake America. Clinton has already lived through that conceptual error.

Hillary is Nixon in a skirt, for better or worse.

I like Dan K's description of global warming politics--it shows an unusually insightful grasp of the positions on both sides in the debate. I would posit for the sake of argument that we consider, instead of winning WWII, the collectivization of agriculture as an example of what's likely with "an activist government" working in an environment that's "the moral equivalent of war".

Matt, I don't disagree substantively with any of this, but when did climate change become a "domestic" issue, counterposed to "foreign policy"? One would think climate change is the ultimate foreign policy issue.

As Matt has said before, the epistemological problems are pretty daunting here. One could easily spin all of these arguments in the other direction…. The fact that Hillary is distrusted by a large portion of both liberals and conservatives might actually make it harder for her administration to mount a war. Or, the fact that she's taking a harder line now may give her more maneuvering room to strike a 'grand bargain' with Iran in the long run (i.e., Nixon-to-China). Who knows?

I support Obama, but that’s because I think he has more potential to be a less divisive leader. It’s pretty darn hard to tell whether he will be better than Clinton (or Edwards) on any particular foreign policy issue.

All these arguments are well and good, but what difference does it make who stands where domestically or on foreign policy?

If we, as a nation, can't get past this left/right, red/blue polarization we will never solve ANY of the huge problems that face us.

The only question I have at this point is who will be more likely to salve the divide wound this nation suffers. Until that happens, we will get nowhere on any agenda.

So who steps into office January 2009 and stands a chance of getting all sides to at least listen to them?

"Joe Lieberman was run out of the party in 2006, but was the Vice Presidential nominee in 2000, and he can very plausibly argue that his views didn't change in those intervening six years"

Hmm...now what happened in between that might have soured people on Lieberman...

As for the HRC/LBJ comparison: don't make me laugh. Not every hawkish centrist Democrat is an LBJ in disguise. Most aren't. Let's remember the relationship between exceptions and rules.

"Can't we glean at least some idea of the likely course of a Hillary Clinton administration's foreign policy by looking at the first Clinton administration? Was that presidency really too hawkish, or was it insufficiently multilateralist? Yes, I realize Hillary is not a clone of Bill, but I personally don't believe their approaches will differ very greatly. I for one would be tickled pink to wake up tomorrow and learn the past seven years have been a bad dream, and in fact Bill Clinton's team was still managing America's foreign affairs."


Jasper,

Don't forget that Bill Clinton's foreign policy was conducted in the immediate aftermath of the Cold War, where the "soft on defense" charge favored by the GOP didn't have political traction. Hilary Clinton's foreign policy will be conducted in the context of the post 9/11 world, where the "soft on terrorism" charge favored by Giuliani and other Republicans still has enormous traction. Knowing Hilary's record of echoing the "macho" approach of Dubya and Cheney, that her instinctual reaction to the use of diplomacy in dealing with Iran or Venuzuela was to brand it as being "naive & irresponsible", and that her default approach on controversial issues is to coopt the Republican/conservative position (instead of defending the Democratic/liberal one), it's not very likely that her foreign policy will display the restraint that Bill Clinton displayed when it came to the unilateral use of American military power. Moreover, she certainly lacks the committment of Obama, Edwards, Richardson, etc to expend political capital on rebuilding and strengthening the institutions of international, mulilateral diplomacy that Dubya and Cheney have shredded. Finally, it is likely she will display an LBJ like phobia of being branded by the GOP as soft on defense, and resort to military force as her first, not last, option.

It'd be nice maybe once in my lifetime to have a president who seemed engaged enough to fight for things I actually believed in, rather than a rather competent, dramatically elite-led pursuit of a mix of policies I found moderately helpful to unhelpful or which were actively undercutting the things I quite intelligently desired.

Not that I'm saying I deserve such a thing. After all, all of us only live once.

But it'd be nice.


If it was ever possible in the past to win an election by being "less divisive", it is not possible now. The whole point of elections is to divide the electorate and count how many people are on each side. Either Hillary or Obama will have to BEAT THE REPUBLICAN first.

I know Republicans (in real life, not just on line) who SAY they could vote for Obama but not Hillary in the general. What they don't say is that they WILL vote for Obama, if we Dems nominate him. Here's what would have to happen for me to buy the "less divisive" argument: a large number of Republicans would have to come out, explicitly, in favor of Obama OVER ANY REPUBLICAN. Should that happen, I would happily join hands with them and sing a rousing chorus of Kumbaya. But they have to renounce Rudy and all his works, up front, or no deal.

Whatever worries I may have about Hillary's foreign policy, my real fear is a Giuliani foreign policy. Until the GOP takes that option off the table, they can STFU about "divisiveness".

-- TP

Yeah, as an Obama supporter, I read the Wilentz interview and felt great about my guy. It seemed a pretty incoherent sort of a history professor's name-calling exercise. But the LBJ analogy is much better support for Hillary's case. Nonetheless, I still maintain that LBJ, like every other figure before him in U.S. politics who succeeded in implementing a progressive agenda, spoke in unifying, bi- and/or non-partisan rhetoric just as Obama does, all the while planning on working the process to reach progressive results and favor progessive ideals and goals. And though LBJ and FDR may in retrospect be seen as partisan, they were viewed in their moment as unifiers and bigger than their party. It may be the case that in the post-Rove/Limbaugh era such a thing can't exist, but I think that gives Rove and Limbaugh too much credit. Much as I enjoy a good Digby-penned screed about the pathological authoritarian personality disorders of the modern GOP, it's a tiny fraction that really makes all of their decisions from that place. This moment may require a new spin or a updated version of the unifier politician, and you can certainly argue that Obama doesn't have the answer there, but Obama's the only one who even has a clue about playing it the right way. Hillary lives to sell out reform and change for power. Just because LBJ changed his stripes when he became POTUS doesn't mean she will too. It's sort of like arguing "because Jordan learned to shoot jumpers and changed his game to account for reduced athleticism in his thirties, so will Lebron."

"Whatever worries I may have about Hillary's foreign policy, my real fear is a Giuliani foreign policy."

Tony P,

The problem is that Hilary Clinton's political instinct will be to coopt and adopt the Dubya/Cheney\Giuliani general approach to foreign policy, and thus her foreign policy will wind up being more like Giuliani's than like Obama's. Granted, she will try to frame her foreign policy as tough yet sane, while framing Giuliani's as batshit-insane (like LBJ did with Goldwater in 1964), but in the end she will be too politically gutless not to use military force as her 1st resort, out of fear of appearing soft on defense.

So, regardless of whether Hilary defeats Giuliani or not, we will end up with a continuation of the Bush/Cheney approach to foreign policy, just prosecuted with a bit more competence.

"I'm with you; I understand the problem. But you need to give me some room to work -- attacking those of us on your side for insufficient purity isn't helpful."

And of course we don't know that Hillary understands the problem at all - or rather, that she understands it in the same way we do.

Clinton isn't attacked for insufficient purity. She's attacked for actually working for towards opposite goals. Her original speech on Iraq was the case for war, not for caution. She was the last of the Democratic candidates to call for an end to the Iraq conflict and only then when the case against it became overwhelmingly popular.

We can't assume that a candidate will, LBJ-like, completely surprise us with their real moral character. More often than not, they're exactly who they've appeared to be all along, or worse.

You really nailed it in this post. Great Work.

You missed the other horn of the Hilary Clinton Disaster though: that she's the least charismatic, least combative and most intimidatable candidate out there. The Republicans will be able to eat her lunch in ways they would never be able to do with - at least - Edwards - and I think Obama as well.

She's never fought to preserve or achieve any accomplishment, that I can see, in her life. She folds like a chair.

For my part, if I could have had John Edwards' outlook and policy prescriptions in the candidacy of Hillary Clinton, I'd prefer that situation greatly.

She's fiercely dedicated to following up on the details, etc., and yeah, I'd like to be able to have the first woman president be a kick ass liberal.

But then, there's a logical contradiction, because you don't get to be the sort of inherited representative of the power structure at the government-business nexus by challenging that nexus' dominance of politics and by introducing genuinely populist reforms.

As usual, I think we are vastly overestimating the Presidency and underestimating Congress. LBJ had a whole lot of help and a lot of pressure from his left, so much so that I think Humphrey was chosen VP partly to get him out of the Senate.
This is not to deny LBJ's greatness, but Reagan & GWB both got their tax cuts because Congress wanted them.

HRC will not have as progressive a Democratic Congress as I would like, not without some serious additional gains. Pelosi & Reid, yeccch.
But Rangel & the old Black Caucus & Kennedy will kick some ass, and she will not veto the Universal Health Care Bill or the Climate or Energy Bills. Or stay in Iraq without funding.

Have some faith. What can be done will be done. Edwards or Obama will not do that much better. What are they gonna do, go over the Democratic Congress to the people? Gimme a break.

This really bugs me, because the big histories are written by Presidential hagiographers and too many believe their BS. LBJ did not write & pass any Civil Rights bills or Great Society or Medicare or Medicaid Bills. He just signed what was handed to him.

Bill Clinton did not get his health care of carbon tax, and so we think Clinton was weak & incompetent. Clinton was not fucking in charge. The President is very rarely in charge.

About the makeup of Congress...

Which Dem candidate will be more likely to get a fairly evenly split Congress onboard with actually moving policy forward?

Will *turn up the heat* on those dastardly Reps help?

Will *turn up the heat* on those dastardly Reps help?

Well, that is another question. Given that the Senate will have at minimum 35 Reps and a half dozen Blue Dogs, who will be best, with critical Senatorial assistance, at bribing, scaring, schmoozing, intimidating his/her way past cloture, or have the nerve to go nucular?

Good question. Not Obama. Edwards still has a chance to impress me, tho I am voting for him anyway.

Let's see, where to begin. Oh yeah, the "Hillary Calculus" - like prepare for debates, court the female voters, be careful with stupid soundbites, and be ready to answer when someone attacks you. Terrible, that evil evil woman.

Hillary is Nixon/Cheney in a pants suit/skirt? If so, we now know that Bill has no balls left so won't be a problem. (He's lucky she didn't shoot him in the face).

Hillary couldn't be the next Bush because she actually plans. She also couldn't be the next Bush because she'd need someone with balls in Congress, and those are in short supply on the Democratic side. And she doesn't have enough Democrats on the Supreme Court supporting end-arounds the Constitution.

So Hillary's not a dove. Aww, let's all cry. Of course Bill was? While it wasn't all pretty, I could live with his efforts in Bosnia & Kosovo (Milosevic went bye-bye fairly quickly, didn't he?). The retreat from Haiti was embarrassing but we returned a few days later - no big loss, eh? Yeltsin got to roar a bit while we had our way in the Balkans. A few shots into Sudan and Bin Laden was on his way. A bit of bombing in Iraq but mostly containment. And I wonder why it is that after some 30+ years of marriage Bill's going to wake up in January 2009 and find himself married to George Bush/Dick Cheney/Andrew Jackson? People are simply deluded.

Tony P.,

There are always some cross-over voters, including in the 1996, 2000, and 2004 elections. The numbers tend to be small, but if there is a significant difference in the number of cross-overs for the respective candidates, it can have big effects.

In fact, Clinton, Bush, and Bush again all won their respective cross-over battles with Dole, Gore, and Kerry. Moreover, in all three cases the difference in the cross-over numbers was actually much more significant than the differential effect of the most notable third party candidate (Perot, Nader, and Nader).

To repeat that point with respect to 2000: losing the cross-over battle hurt Gore much more than the net effect of Nader being in the race. That is why I find it interesting that many Democrats blame the outcome in 2000 on the small percentage of Democrats who voted for Nader. In fact, the much more serious problem was the much larger percentage of Democrats who voted for Bush (and the too-low percentage of Republicans who voted for Gore).

So I personally think Democrats ignore this issue at their peril. And again, it isn't about getting a large number of cross-overs. It is just about getting substantially more cross-overs than your opponent.

But in the wake of JFK's assassination and the Goldwater nomination and the decades of groundwork that had been laid by the Civil Rights movement and the progressive unions the opportunity presented itself. And at just that moment the country was led by a man who was an opportunist -- a veteran master of the political and legislative process saw the opportunity and seized maximum advantage of it.

But of course, you can't talk about Johnson without talking about Vietnam.

No, you can't.

Nearly 40 years ago, there was a cute little book called "The Begatting of a President" which covered much of the politics of the 1960s in satirical quasi-Biblical language.

One chapter, titled "LBJenesis," had LBJ creating the Great Society in six days (and lo, he saw that it was Great), and on the seventh day he had a barbecue.

Then LBJ said, "Shucks, let there be an eighth day." And on the eighth day, he escalated.

That last paragraph is as precise a quote of the book as my memory will cough up. I've often thought it should have been his Presidency's epitaph.

Hillary's putative savvy is irrelevant- she's a loser. There's no way on earth she'll be able to shed herself of her "bitch" skin and slither into "The New Hillary" a la Nixon in '68. Can Obama win? Who knows, Edwards? Probably has a better chance than Obama. But, you have to be able to see Hillary as average, not terribly bright (men and women) voters do. She's creppy and alienating and can not win.

I also think Hillary would NOT be as good a domestic President as, say, Edwards.

It's hard to overstate the role of money in American politics. The GOP, of course, is the party that believes in cutting regulations and taxes on big corporations, and throwing subsidies at them. They don't even need to be bought.

But as long as the Democratic Party is comfortable in taking money from the GOP's friends, it undermines the Democratic opposition to the host of corporate interests who believe that America should be run for their benefit, whether it's coal-industry mountaintop removers and polluters, or the people who benefit from carried interest being taxed at only 15%, or the bank-like funds that brought us the subprime lending crisis, or whoever.

Hillary's comfortable in taking money from the lobbyists and corporate interests. I don't believe she's going to miraculously change her stripes once elected.

"As usual, I think we are vastly overestimating the Presidency and underestimating Congress. LBJ had a whole lot of help and a lot of pressure from his left, so much so that I think Humphrey was chosen VP partly to get him out of the Senate."

Bob McManus,

The Civil Rights Act of 1964 would not have passed had LBJ not lobbied, pressured, and arm twisted enough Congressmen and Senators from both parties to vote for it. The Act passed because LBJ helped cobble together a coalition of liberal/moderate Northern Democrats and libera/moderate Rockefeller Republicans to vote for the act. This coalition was just enough to overcome the opposition of congressional Dixiecrats & Goldwater/Reagan Republicans.

Do you honestly expect Hilary "Triangulator" Clinton to ever be willing to expend her political capital and build bipartisan coalitions in the service of a LIBERAL domestic agenda like LBJ did for the Civil Rights Act of 1964?

"And I wonder why it is that after some 30+ years of marriage Bill's going to wake up in January 2009 and find himself married to George Bush/Dick Cheney/Andrew Jackson? People are simply deluded."


So why has Hilary Clinton been the biggest Democratic supporter of Dubya's miltarism after Joe Lieberman? Why did she instinctually react to the notion of using vigorous diplomacy to deal with Iran and Venuzuela as being naive and irresponsible, when the militaristic approach of Bush/Cheney has done more to weaken this nation than any Jimmy Carter dovishness? Why did she let Obama and Edwards take the lead in promoting a rebuidling and strengthening of multilateral international institutions? Why did she let Obama and Edwards take the lead in arguing for a shift in our military focus away from Iraq and BACK TO Afghanistan? Could it be the Clintonian triangulating instinct rearing its head, which resulted in the Clintons abandoning their liberal domestic agenda in favor of corporate friendly efforts like NAFTA. and popular Republican efforts like welfare reform?

Knowing that the default approach of the Clintons to controversial issues is to coopt the Republican/conservative approach and to abandon the Democratic/liberal approach, it is extremely likely that her foreign policy will be a continuation of the Bush/Cheney approach, but conducted with more competence.

RE: the smartest one in the room. Obama certainly is smart, but he wasn't in that room. And why not? Too busy to talk about the environment and energy independence?

Those who don't like/hate Hillary never change their tune. She a loser, cold, calculating, distant, etc. Right out the Republican play book from the past 15-20 years. Many of you only know what you are told to know about her.

Every Democratic voter has a responsibility to look at all of the candidates with an eye toward avoiding preconceptions and listening to what they actually say and how they act and react on the campaign trail. Enough of the Republican talking points already.

"As Democratic whip in the Senate in 1964, Humphrey was instrumental in the passage of the Civil Rights Act of that year." ...Wiki

One of the more amazing political acts and careers in American history was Hubert Humphrey,
as Mayor of Minneapolis running for Senator, getting the civil rights plank in the 1948 Democratic platform that drove Thurmond and the Dixiecrats to form a third party in 1948. I don't know where Johnson was in 1948.

The Senate is a mysterious place, and if Harry Reid is the front man on a bill, that doesn't exclude the possibility that he is being pressured by five more committed Senators who prefer Reid be the front man.

Johnson deserves a lot of credit. In my gut, I would bet Humphrey deserves more credit. And I am guessing there are others.

"Initially, Humphrey's support of civil rights led to him being ostracized by Southern Democrats, who dominated most of the Senate leadership positions and who wanted to punish Humphrey for proposing the successful civil rights platform at the 1948 Convention. However, Humphrey refused to be intimidated and stood his ground" ...Wiki

"Along with the majority of Southern senators who allowed the bill for that reason, there were some (such as Harry Byrd) who were of the opinion that voting for minorities should be federally protected, while others (such as Richard Russell) wished to propel Senate leader Lyndon Johnson to greater power, and for these reasons were supporters of a bill protecting (albeit weak) voting rights in the late 1950s."

Y'all understand how this works? Of course the 57 Bill couldn't have Humphrey's name on it, and Richard Russell probably wanted Johnson to get credit for something because that bastard Humphrey was running for President in 1960 and Russell would rather have Johnson or Kennedy. I don't know, Johnson and Humphrey probably worked a tag-team good-cop bad-cop. This real work goes on behind closed doors and at lunch and never makes the record. I certainly don't trust the history books.

To get on topic, who knows how good a Senator Hillary Clinton is? The best ones don't necessarily get the headlines.

"if she is the master of political calculus people say she is, then there's little to worry about. No such person would take a war-weary nation to war for no good reason."

None of that follows, not even logically, let alone politically.

Clinton is beholding to the same crew of Zionists, oil companies and war profiteers that Bush is - perhaps less so being a Democrat, but not so much different when you take into account the rest of the crew on the Hill that will be supporting the same things.

She will do what she thinks - or is told - that they want her to do if she wants a second term or a lot of money on leaving the White House. It's that simple.

This is WHY Bill Clinton was known for being more conservative than the conservatives. Once in power, he owed the same people. Once Hillary is in power, she will owe the same people. And you cross these people, even accidentally, you end up like Kennedy. Sometimes you don't even have to cross them - like Reagan, you just have to make Bush wait another four years and he'll try to have you hit.

You people still don't get it. NONE of these people are honest, rational, servants of the American people who will stand up for what they believe in - and what they believe in has nothing to do with the US citizenry. NONE of them - not even Ron Paul, although I suspect he believes it more than the rest do - which is why everyone thinks he's crazy.

When you understand that, you understand how the US continues to screw its citizens and the rest of the world over again and again and will continue to do so until the US state is physically destroyed by either its citizens or somebody else.

All that said, there's a difference between North Korea and Iran. Attacking North Korea would have been an immediately obvious huge mistake. Iran, not so much so. (Plus of course, oil.) So Bush folded on NK, and is still trying to get a war going with Iran. The only question is: will Hillary (or Obama, for that matter) fold on Iran rather than start a war by realizing that attacking Iran will be a big mistake? A big mistake for the country, not so for the Zionists, the oil companies and the war profiteers who financed her campaign.

I can't see how she can - she's painted herself into a corner with the Israel Lobby and the other forces involved. What possible deal can she offer Iran that will get Iran to do what the US wants and also prevent Israel from attacking Iran if the US doesn't get what it wants? None that I can see, outside of a true "grand bargain" - which she can't offer because the Lobby and other forces involved will crucify her for that - since their purpose is fundamentally opposed to any such bargain.

How do you reconcile those two positions? You can't.

Therefore, a war with Iran - or a deliberate break with the people who financed her campaign - is inevitable. There is no third alternative.

Email me when she breaks with her campaign contributors and stands on principle to prevent a war with Iran.


"She's always the smartest person in the room."

Is that because of her natural talents, or her ego?


Comments closed December 03, 2007.

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