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The Trouble With Extremists

06 Nov 2007 01:22 pm

I probably should say something about Ron Paul's tremendous financial successes. Mostly, I agree with what Ross says. I also think, though, that the Paul phenomenon and its limits helps highlight a structural problem in America. Ross observes:

When “extreme” figures manage to break through and succeed in this sytem, it’s usually because they aren’t really that extreme at all – see Newt Gingrich, for instance, a center-right futurist whom the press painted (with an assist from his own undisciplined mouth) as a fascist nutjob, or Howard Dean, a moderate liberal who was cast as the second coming of George McGovern because he opposed the Iraq War and acted, well, angry. Whereas Ron Paul actually is an extremist, insofar as he holds positions that are way, way outside the Beltway mainstream.

The trouble, though, is that on top of his out-of-the-mainstream views, Paul is also a huge weirdo who seems a bit crazy. Rebecca Traister made some similar points about Dennis Kucinich. The difficulty is that in a country as big as the United States, it's easy for a set of views to simultaneously be very unpopular and also be supported by millions of people, but out of those millions of people the folks who decide to enter electoral politics in order to take on a principled, "no compromise with the electorate" approach are going to be the eccentrics. More normal, well-adjusted people with extremist views are going to prefer to do something less frustrated and isolating with their lives.

As a result, views like Kucinich's social democracy and Paul's libertarianism wind up represented by eccentric politicians, which winds up making their views seem weirder than they deserve to be.

Photo by Flickr user Jayel Aheram used under a Creative Commons license.

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Comments (91)

I don't know. I find Guiliani to be more eccentric and his views weirder than Paul's.

Well, Ron Paul is fine - if you like anti-Semites. Hence his support from the fringes (left and right) and the Moslems. All Guiliani did was save NYC.

Ron Paul is not running for King. He will not be able to disband everyone's favorite government programs by fiat. However, if elected, he will be Commander-in-Chief of the military and he will be able to do a lot of good in ending our imperial tendencies.

Um, Eagle613, I'm a lifelong New Yorker, and I have to say, you, sir, are full of it.

Meanwhile, before the St. Paul Apostles start to arrive, I just wanted to say that, finally, Matt's acknowledged something Andrew Sullivan refuses to do:

Ron Paul:Republicans::Dennis Kucinich:Democrats

Wow. If you think Ron Paul is a weird guy, you haven't paid attention to any other libertarian politicians. Paul actually strikes me as pretty normal, compared to most of the other candidates. He's certainly not flaky in the Kucinich way.

i find it interesting that you can agree with only 25% of a politician's views yet feel compelled enough to give money, put a sticker on your car, or wear a t-shirt. something unique is happening with Paul, and it is accelerating at a blistering pace.

So...people won't vote for "huge weirdos who seem a bit crazy?"

Matt, you have heard of Ross Perot, right? I seem to recall a boatload of people voting for him, and Ron Paul isn't half as wacky as Ross was.

Let's see, peep shows in Times Square, squeegie men running rampant, skyrocketing crime rates, a pogrom in Brooklyn, declining real estate values, a flight of corporate offices out of the City -NYC before Guiliani was a real paradise, it was.

What makes a person a weirdo? I am guessing his views. What's so eccentric about Paul and Kucinich's personality? Ron Paul's great appeal is his opposition to the Iraq war. To his credit he has framed that argument in a language that appeals to conservatives. I admire his convictions when he takes on Giuliani and co. about the war. However outside of that issue, yeah, he is totally out there. Btw what’s with Sully? He seems to be in love with Paul.

DaveA,

Hell, my Dad voted for Ross Perot. And he's ideologically Clinton; he just hated the man. Same reason he voted for Dole.

I utterly believe it possible for Paul to get Perot's kind of support. But not until he loses the GOP nomination.

I've been familiar with Paul for many years (he used to represent my congressional district), and I have been following his current campaign. I read these comments that he's "weird", "bizarre", "crazy", etc. It's fascinating to me because I have never.. NEVER listened to the man speak and thought anything other than, "This guy makes a lot of sense."

I really don't get it. Maybe it's weird that he's been married to the same woman for what, 50 years? He believes in sound monetary policy and rails against government/Fed created inflation... that's weird? Have you looked at the state of the dollar recently? He believes in a smaller, less intrusive, less powerful, less expensive federal government... that's weird? Seems like that's exactly what we need - desperately.

Even on issues where I disagree with Ron Paul, I still find that his positions are principled and well thought out.

Perhaps this is just an attempt to marginalize a candidate that these writers disagree with. If that's the case, it's just slimy, but maybe the explanation is more mundane. I have noticed, that a lot of these negative comments come from people who don't know their arses from a hole in the ground, when it comes to economic and monetary theory/policy - or foreign policy. So maybe it's just simple ignorance.

Glenn Greenwald is one of the few who has hit the nail on the head (as usual) with his recent piece on Ron Paul. Maybe you should read it.

The trouble, though, is that on top of his out-of-the-mainstream views, Paul is also a huge weirdo who seems a bit crazy.

Ron Paul is eccentric, sure, but crazy? I think you've been drinking a bit too much of the D.C. tap water.

Giuliani hopes to be just like the corrupt Bernie Kerik. He hints that he tortured suspects as a prosecutor, hopes to drop the bomb on Iran and wishes the courts would stay out of the whole rule of law discussion.

Tancredo wants to nuke Mecca.

Romney wants to double Guantanamo.

They pretty much all want to eliminate the 4th amendment and think habeas corpus is for terrorist coddlers.

But Ron Paul's crazy because he wants to eliminate the Federal Reserve?

Seriously, if you drew a chart of candidates from eccentric to completely insane where would you put each of the Republicans today?

Seriously, this post is exhibit A in what's wrong with D.C. Somehow, running for office for ideological reasons makes you crazy, but running because you have a good chance at winning and you want the power to tell people what to do makes you normal.

Weird things about Ron Paul:

(1) He's a hard-core right to lifer, calling himself an "implacable foe of abortion".

(2) He wants to return to the gold standard.

(3) He opposes the Voting Rights Act of 1964.

(4) He's apparently still upset with the Amendments to the Constitution instituted after the Civil War (13-15).

Of course, it could never be that people are sending dollars to Ron Paul because the leading contenders in BOTH major parties are so dismal and underwhelming. Just like it could never be that millions of Americans might justifiably conclude that being "way, way outside the Beltway mainstream" is a pretty good endorsement in and of itself. The "Beltway mainstream" gave us Iraq.

I was thinking of lining up behind Ron Paul, but in the end, I'm not a libertarian. But it's a hoot watching MY calling him "a huge weirdo who seems a bit crazy". Whatever one thinks of his political leanings, by all accounts the man's had a real career doing real things that have actually affected human lives for the better. Is there ONE Beltway gasbag, or aspiring Beltway gasbag, who can say as much?

Seriously, this post is exhibit A in what's wrong with D.C. Somehow, running for office for ideological reasons makes you crazy, but running because you have a good chance at winning and you want the power to tell people what to do makes you normal.

Spot on.

For anyone still operating under he delusion that Ron Paul isn't an extremist whackjob with paranoid visions of the UN's black helicopters taking over the United States, read his raving, handwritten screed/fundraising letter:

http://www.brendan-nyhan.com/blog/2007/10/ron-paul-still-.html

Kevin Drum called it "unabomber-esque."

But I suppose that's somehow OK because he has "principles." Well, the survivalist movement of the 1990s had principles, too.

Ron Paul is a direct descendent of the extreme right "patriot" movement. Beware.

I'm also curious what it is that makes Paul a "huge wierdo" (other than the out-of-the-mainstream political views)? I know very little about the guy other than his political positions.

As for Kucinich, such the political positions were strange. But he also used his presidential campaign to (successfully, I guess) troll for a wife. That's really odd.

"Of course, it could never be that people are sending dollars to Ron Paul because the leading contenders in BOTH major parties are so dismal and underwhelming."

Yes, it could never be that. Considering that the top Democratic contenders are raising mountains of money compared to previous elections, Paul's success is certainly due solely to the complete collapse of establishment Republicans.

I'm glad you have such a good handle on that.

"But he also used his presidential campaign to (successfully, I guess) troll for a wife. That's really odd."

Odd? Have you seen his wife?

The results sure seem to using match.com, at least.

(1) He's a hard-core right to lifer, calling himself an "implacable foe of abortion".

Pretty much true of every man running. Except for Rudy, who personally supports abortion rights but will only nominate judges who'll overturn it.


Weird things about Ron Paul:
(1) He's a hard-core right to lifer, calling himself an "implacable foe of abortion".
(2) He wants to return to the gold standard.
(3) He opposes the Voting Rights Act of 1964.
(4) He's apparently still upset with the Amendments to the Constitution instituted after the Civil War (13-15).

Where "weird" means, "I disagree".

1) There are social democratic Catholics who are also "implacable foes of abortion".

2) Alan Greenspan, not so long ago Slick Willy Clinton's chum, seems to think pretty highly of the gold standard, too.

3) Bush the Elder voted against the Voting Rights Act.

4) I'd really like a citation supporting this "apparent" truth.

I don't agree with Paul on any of these, myself. But they're not exactly unknown in American political life, particularly among conservatives or Republicans.

Some more 'weird' things about Ron Paul:

http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/2007/06/ron-paul-vs-new-world-order.html

Just to give you a flavor of the types of people Ron Paul is attracting to his campaign, take one of my classmates who is a creepy, true believing Ron Paul supporter.

She recently told me she was convinced Barack Obama was the anti-Christ (not metaphorically or in a ha-ha way, but as in the for-real manifestation of Satan on Earth) and proceeded to send me links to Bible scripture "proving" as much. And guess what? If Ron Paul doesn't win the Republican nomination and the presidency, Satan will rule the United States thus bringing about the End Times.

Not creepy enough for you?

Watch this propaganda video Ron Paul's supporters and fast forward to the end, when Paul is compared to being a "prophet" over the stylings of Simon and Garfunkle:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FG2PUZoukfA

Are there small alarm bells going off in the back of your head? Does something strike you about this guy as being just a bit off?

Isn't it time that someone in the media start asking Ron Paul tough questions about his religious views, especially his take on the Book of Revelation?

Hektor... Maybe if you were an OB/GYN who witnessed an aborted fetus being dumped in a trash can - crying for several minutes as it died - you'd be a "foe of abortion" too. That happened to Ron Paul (I think when he was an intern). Nevertheless, he wants to return the issue to the states, not institute a federal ban on abortion.

The gold standard thing.... He wants to return to sound money that is not subject to being debauched by the Federal Reserve. Maybe you're happy watching your buying power go down, down, down. I am not. The Constitution says money is to be of gold and silver. Ron Paul has suggested that competing currencies be introduced so that one can choose between the (unbacked) Federal Reserve Note and "hard" currency.

I don't know about the 13 - 15 Amendments. I do understand where there might be problems, but I would have to hear what Ron has to say about those issues. I know that sometimes he opposes certain laws and government actions because they don't comport with the ideals espoused in the founding documents. Social Security, for example. Even though he thinks it's illegal, he also understands that it would be a disaster to pull the rug out from under people who have become dependent on the system. So, his approach is to stop spending on our military empire, divert that money to S.S. - and paying down the debt - while letting younger people begin opting out of the system.

The point is, you can't just say "he's against the 13th Amendment" without a thorough explanation of his thoughts on the issues involved. It would be ludicrous to suggest that Ron Paul supports a return to slavery - don't ya think?

Yes, it could never be that. Considering that the top Democratic contenders are raising mountains of money compared to previous elections, Paul's success is certainly due solely to the complete collapse of establishment Republicans.

You got a point in there somewhere?

My understanding is that Paul's recent fundraising success is based pretty much entirely on small donations. The Dems have done better with those, too -- but their coffers are also getting stuffed with lotsa sweet corporate dollars, because business sees how the trends are shaping up, and it's investing accordingly.

And of course, those corporate dollars don't mean anything. The Dems are the fearless advocates of the working man, aren't they? We know from experience that they'd never deviate from principle or be swayed by Mammon, right?

I've ponied up for Dem candidates before. I'll never do it again, because it's wasted dollars -- the only thing the Dems know is cowardly betrayal. I think there are lots of people thinking similarly (hint: they read the fucking papers). So, yeah, I think it's reasonable to surmise that Paul is benefiting from disgust with BOTH parties.

For anyone still operating under he delusion that Ron Paul isn't an extremist whackjob with paranoid visions of the UN's black helicopters taking over the United States, read his raving, handwritten screed/fundraising letter:

Okay, people. I thought the idea was to define why Ron Paul was extreme even for the Republican party.

So you complain that he's:

anti-UN Have you heard of John Bolton? He was our Republican supported ambassador. Republican hatred of the UN is a staple of the party.

anti-immigrant Take a look at Rudy and Mitt arguing who about sanctuary cities. While you're at it take a look at the debate surrounding the wall we're building on the Mexican border.

paranoid Does the phrase "you have no civil liberties if your dead" ring a bell. How about "Global Islamic Jihad" or "The Terrorist's War on Us (TM)"

wants to abolish the IRS/Department of Education/EPA/FEMA... have you been paying attention the last 7 years?

anti-abortion Take a look at the party platform sometime.

I don't agree with Paul on any of these, myself. But they're not exactly unknown in American political life, particularly among conservatives or Republicans.

From the Orcinus post, Ron Paul thoughts on black people:

"Opinion polls consistently show that only about 5 percent of blacks have sensible political opinions, i.e. support the free market, individual liberty and the end of welfare and affirmative action,"Paul wrote.

Paul continued that politically sensible blacks are outnumbered "as decent people." Citing reports that 85 percent of all black men in the District of Columbia are arrested, Paul wrote:

"Given the inefficiencies of what D.C. laughingly calls the `criminal justice system,' I think we can safely assume that 95 percent of the black males in that city are semi-criminal or entirely criminal," Paul said.

Paul also wrote that although "we are constantly told that it is evil to be afraid of black men, it is hardly irrational. Black men commit murders, rapes, robberies, muggings and burglaries all out of proportion to their numbers."

A campaign spokesman for Paul said statements about the fear of black males mirror pronouncements by black leaders such as the Rev. Jesse Jackson, who has decried the spread of urban crime.

Dneiwert explains where Ron Paul got his statistics:

What Paul never explained was that one of the primary sources for this information about black crime came from Jared Taylor, the pseudo-academic racist whose magazine American Renaissance was at the time embarked on a long series of tirades on the subject (the June 1992 issue was primarily devoted to the subject; the statistic claiming that 85 percent of black men in D.C. have been arrested appears in the August issue), the culmination of which was Taylor's later book, The Color of Crime, which made similarly unsupportable claims about blacks.

What the fuck is Ron Paul doing reading and taking seriously "American Renaissance"? That's the fringiest of the fringe. Don't take my word for it, read it yourself:

http://www.amren.com


mdy...

You're Ron Paul "quotes" are not the words of Ron Paul. This has been thoroughly discredited and you are a slimeball for posting them.

Once again... Ron Paul DID NOT write those things!

AAAAAHHHHH!!

America really needs a parliamentary system with many more parties. We're a country of 5 million people and we have 8 different parties in parliament. It isn't very democratic to have only two choices. The "weirdos" deserve representation - at least if they make up some (2-5) percentage of the population

anti-UN Have you heard of John Bolton? He was our Republican supported ambassador. Republican hatred of the UN is a staple of the party.

There's a difference between being "anti-UN" in the John Bolton sense and actually thinking UN jackbooted stormtroopers are going to invade and take over the United States.

Read his own nutty handwritten letter and decide for yourself. And don't let the implications about the gold standard and fiat money and the Wall Street bankers (read: Jews) stop you.

Ron Paul is two steps removed from the Michigan Militia.

At least Paul has the Stormfront vote!

Seig heil.

It would be ludicrous to suggest that Ron Paul supports a return to slavery - don't ya think

Well, based on mdy's post above, I'd say I wouldn't be surprised if he did.

mdy...You're Ron Paul "quotes" are not the words of Ron Paul. This has been thoroughly discredited and you are a slimeball for posting them. Once again... Ron Paul DID NOT write those things! AAAAAHHHHH!!

Yes he did.

In Ron Paul's own newsletter.

So stop lying please.

Thanks.

http://web.archive.org/web/20070512114222/http://www.chron.com/content/chronicle/aol-metropolitan/96/05/23/paul.html

Matthew's point was that Ron Paul is somehow a weird guy outside of his political positions. I've yet to hear any evidence for that.

Paul's support is derived primarily from libertarians and.

I tend to see the attacks by Neiwert, Drum, etc, as being motivated by fear that Democrats may lose control of the war as an issue since they've been incredibly ineffective in opposing it in Congress and are likely to nominate someone who only recently has turned against it and done so in an equivocable fashion. So we get a coordinated effort to paint Paul as an extremist based around the same set of talking points attempting to tie him - sometimes legitimately (while, contra self-proclaimed "Paul-watcher" Neiwert's statements, he didn't write the article in the newsletter he should have stopped it from being published), but mostly by weak guilt by association arguments - to racists and militia groups.

Read his own nutty handwritten letter and decide for yourself. And don't let the implications about the gold standard and fiat money and the Wall Street bankers (read: Jews) stop you.

Lemme see... The guy who just lost his CEO gig at Citibank (?) was black. Doesn't seem to jibe with the stereotype of Wall Street moneychangers and the Chosen People, does it?

Seems to me that when Paul talks about Wall Street bankers, he's alluding to the immense influence that the finance industry has in the Beltway. I suggest you ask Fightin' Joe Biden (D-credit cards) or Smokin' Joe Lieberman (I-insurance) or Chuck Schumer (D-hedge funds) for details.

It is nutty to believe that a massive rollback of the American government would be a good thing for any but the very wealthiest, and particularly for the most amoral among them. There's simply no evidence for it. There is evidence, and plenty of it, for the benefits of social democracy to the public at large - most recently in Taiwan's adoption of universal health care in the 1990s, and the subsequent reduction of costs and improvement in the Taiwanese people's health and sense of satisfaction with their care. (I have yet to see any libertarian argument against universal care deal with this with anything but a handwave like "yeah, but that's a homogeneous population".) We know that a sabotaged regulatory apparatus gives us, for instance, toxic goods from China and the like; we are supposed to believe that an even weaker or nonexistent regulatory apparatus somehow wouldn't, that businesspeople would become altogether kind and concerned if only it weren't for the mean ol' government, and that even if they were still mean, the people would rise up and take matters into their own hands with torts...if, of course, it weren't for tort reform that makes it so much harder for them to do so.

"Nutty" and the like seem reasonable labels for views directly contrary to the available evidence.

I tend to see the attacks by Neiwert, Drum, etc, as being motivated by fear that Democrats may lose control of the war

That makes sense if there was any chance of Paul getting nominated as the Republican candidate. Maybe Drum et. all are calling him an extremist because outside of the war, his views really are extremist. Extremist views are not necessarily a bad thing (as Ross stated), just that the views are not shared by most people.

mdy,

It's been long established that the article in question was not written by Paul. Neiwart should have know this and is dishonest for misrepresenting who wrote the article, since this isn't the first time it's came up.

Per the NYT Magazine:

In the 1996 general election, Paul’s Democratic opponent Lefty Morris held a press conference to air several shocking quotes from a newsletter that Paul published during his decade away from Washington. Passages described the black male population of Washington as “semi-criminal or entirely criminal” and stated that “by far the most powerful lobby in Washington of the bad sort is the Israeli government.” Morris noted that a Canadian neo-Nazi Web site had listed Paul’s newsletter as a laudably “racialist” publication.

Paul survived these revelations. He later explained that he had not written the passages himself — quite believably, since the style diverges widely from his own. But his response to the accusations was not transparent. When Morris called on him to release the rest of his newsletters, he would not. He remains touchy about it. “Even the fact that you’re asking this question infers, ‘Oh, you’re an anti-Semite,’ ” he told me in June.

Link

The commenters above have been arguing that Paul's views are extreme or that he has weirdos among his supporters, but Matt's claim was that Paul's persona and mien are off-putting in and of themselves quite apart from his views on issues, and I just don't see evidence for this. In debates and on The Tonight Show, he comes across as a bit socially awkward and not very smooth or polished, but on the whole as a perfectly likable, friendly, and articulate guy. But I think Kucinich also seems perfectly likable, so maybe I just have a broad definition of normal.

Paul survived these revelations. He later explained that he had not written the passages himself — quite believably, since the style diverges widely from his own.

LOL, yeah, if you're quoting some obscure "racialist" tract, I guess you could technically say you didn't "write the passages" yourself. That's what's called a non-denial denial. He did sign his name on the newsletter, correct?

Why won't he release his other newsletters if he has nothing to hide?

That makes sense if there was any chance of Paul getting nominated as the Republican candidate. Maybe Drum et. all are calling him an extremist because outside of the war, his views really are extremist. Extremist views are not necessarily a bad thing (as Ross stated), just that the views are not shared by most people

But why all the ink spilled then? The Republicans don't spend their time digging up and diseminating obscure oppo on Kucinich or Gravel.

Paul doesn't have to be the nominee for it to matter. If he establishes himself as the most prominent anti-war candidate, he cuts into their contributions and volunteering from people who aren't necessarily strongly attached to either party but are opposed to the war. Plus, while Paul hasn't shown interest in it, there are a lot of people who are encouraging him to run 3rd party if he doesn't get the nomination. Neiwart is actually pretty clear that he's worried about Paul's successful courting of some anti-war liberals.

My views on nuttiness aside, though, I think that Paul is getting a lot of support for a pretty sensible reason: most especially if you're a Republican who thinks that Bush is making some fundamental mistakes and that all the other candidates are rushing to amplify them, where else can you put some money to show that that's what you think? If there were another anti-this-war (and anti-Middle East-calamities-in-general) candidate and Republican and independent donors were passing that one by to give to Paul, I'd wonder about that...but I don't wonder at all about people using the Paul candidate to make their mark. After all, I'm doing the same thing with Dodd and Kucinich on the Democratic side - not because I agree with everything they say but because they're the only voices on my side for things that matter a lot to me.

The success of the Paul fund-raising effort is, really, directly the result of the Republican side of the Beltway establishment grabbing so much control over acceptable public debate. They've been trying to squeeze out every alternative, just like the Democratic side of that establishment, but they can't make people stop wanting alternatives. So there's Paul, who certainly has the courage of his convictions and offering an alternative when it comes to rock-stupid war and occupation. If I were of Republican inclination I'd probably toss him some bucks too, to do my part in showing how deep the dissatisfaction runs.

And all of that seems to me a sensible use of one's resources at this point in the campaign.

I'm attracted to Ron Paul for the same reason I campaigned for Howard Dean:

I LIKE the idea of a crazy person being President.

Is anyone else here an amateur graphologist who thinks it's still basically baloney?

That being said and assuming Paul actually wrote the letter, Paul isn't crazy, handwriting-wise. There's none of the things that mark insane crazy people handwriting: changing sizes, violating margins, ALL CAPS, etc.

I do find the cramped nature of his handwriting interesting. It might potentially signify "narrow-mindedness", which I would not necessarily characterize him as. I also tend to see introversion, but his occupation does not bear me out.

But why all the ink spilled then?

Because his views are controversial. Anyone opposing the 13th amendment is bound to cause some discussion.

Aside from the racism bit, there is no dirt thrown at Paul. Just his views. Why on earth would Republicans worry about Kucinich or Gravel? Even Bill Richardson does not worry about them.

Paul doesn't have to be the nominee for it to matter. If he establishes himself as the most prominent anti-war candidate, he cuts into their contributions and volunteering from people who aren't necessarily strongly attached to either party but are opposed to the war

Maybe but I doubt that he would be the most prominent anti-war candidate of both parties. In any event the Democratic frontrunners are not exactly wanting for funds/volunteers.

there are a lot of people who are encouraging him to run 3rd party if he doesn't get the nomination. Neiwart is actually pretty clear that he's worried about Paul's successful courting of some anti-war liberals

You may have a point there. But in a general I think a Paul candidacy would hurt the GOP more especially if a guy like Giuliani is the GOP guy.

I used to worry a lot, until I learned how to toss a Ron Paul salad.

Everything's going to be fine.

I LIKE the idea of a crazy person being President.

Boy, we missed the boat with Perot. I loved his story about his dog that drove off 4 armed men. First, that's an enormous dog. So big that armed men forgot that they had firearms that could kill a big dog. That's a really big dog. Second, that's a really smart dog: it could count and report back.
-Woof. Woof. Woof. Woof. Bang!
-Bang?
-Bang. Bang. Bang. Bang.
-4 Bangs?
-Woof.
-You were shot 4 times?
-Woofbang. Woofbang. Woofbang. Oh, screw it. There were 4 guys with guns.

Anyway, Perot had a dog like that and it's crazy to have a dog like that. Sooner of later, it would have taken his job.

mdy,

Your immunity to facts is impressive. Paul did not write the article in question because the newsletter was being ghostwritten, as claimed by Paul and supported by the fact that the writting style of the article is markedly different than Paul's. Paul probably wants to keep the newsletter wrapped up because there's some other embarassing articles in it, which would be a sound tactical decision.

The incident does raise questions about his judgement in who he chose to write the newsletter, but on the facts you and Neiwart are simply wrong. Acknowledge it and deal with it.

Re Eagle's comment "All Guiliani did was save NYC."
----------
I think we remember the type of mayor "Il Duce" was: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/1436538.stm

"It's Giuliani Time"

Dennis Kucinich may or may not be a weirdo, but Mrs. Dennis Kucinich makes Mrs. Fred Thompson look like Barbara Bush, so he's got something going for him.

a lot of these negative comments come from people who don't know their arses from a hole in the ground, when it comes to economic and monetary theory/policy - or foreign policy

The funny thing about the Ron Paul supporters is that, like this poster above, they are either crazy themselves or stupid.

Of course removing the Federal Reserve and returning to the gold standard would mean that, since gold is appreciating so quickly, massive deflation would ensue and the economy would tank. And without a the Fed and other government policies that Ron Paul wants to remove, the US would go through boom/bust cycles and have an economic depression every 7 years. Brilliant! Any more good sane ideas from Dr. Paul?

The best idea he has is leaving Iraq, followed by ended the "war on drugs". Other than that, it is ruinous ideology that will bankrupt the US.

"Anyone opposing the 13th amendment"

As a long time member of the Libertarian party, who's at least moderately familiar with Paul, I think it would be fair to say he does not "oppose" the 13th amendment.

On the other hand, he does notice that the way it was ratified is more than a bit dodgy. If that's all it takes to be an advocate of slavery, our history departments are hotbeds of that advocacy. Because said dodginess isn't exactly contraversial.

Re mdy's comment "Well, the survivalist movement of the 1990s had principles, too.

Ron Paul is a direct descendent of the extreme right "patriot" movement. Beware."
-------------
Actually, the survivalists have a range of political views. But they generally agree that the US government is as much of a potential threat to US citizens as Russian nukes. That's why they hide out in the countryside. Buy and hide AK47s. As well as gold coins.

A view that used to seem obviously wacko. But it seem much less wacko since we have seen the President and Congress wipe their ass on the Bill of Rights.

Since we have seen the President and Congress use two-faced sophistry to claim the right to imprison US citizens for years without trial or judicial hearings. To use our tax dollars to build massive systems with which to place the American people under continuous and covert surveillance. To torture US citizens.

And those gold coins have gained about 300 percent of their value over US dollars during the 7 years of Bush financial management.

The same morons who laugh at the survivalists don't even realize that Bush has dumped about $50,000 of debt onto them. They also think that Hillary Clinton -- actually, the wealthy men who make Hillary's decisions for her -- will be different from the wealthy men who made George Bush's decisions for him.

Or that $300 BILLION per year is being spent on "Homeland Security" in order to "Protect" us.

Kucinich's social democracy isn't weird or extremist at all. Nobody in Europe would bat an eyelid reading Kuchinich's program. The US is weird and extremist.

Ron Paul proves that the problem with America is Americans.

Re freddiemac's comment "And without the Fed and other government policies that Ron Paul wants to remove, the US would go through boom/bust cycles and have an economic depression every 7 years"
-------------
Actually we had a FED in 1929-1939. And we had the Great Depression.

We may have another -- for the same reason. The Fed can't cut interest rates if the dollar is losing value -- else an interest rate cut may trigger capital flight which destroys the US economy.

You may not have noticed, but the US economy requires about $1 TRILLION of business investment every year just to maintain the status quo.

Our current infrastructure (computers,transport vehicles, etc) depreciate far more rapidly than did the railroads and iron smelting plants of the Gilded Age.

Our relative stability since WWII was not so much the result of FED astute decisionmaking as it was due to USA ability to retain capital -- because we were the major military power and our economy alone had survived the World War which destroyed the economies of the other great powers. But our relative advantage in that regard has declined greatly.

Plus we have the same structural problem the USA had in 1929: Deeply corrupt politics has concentrated wealth and income into the hands of a small minority , leading to a disconnect between supply and demand.

The people who need goods and services don't have the income to pay for them whereas the people who do have the income have sated appetites and are prepared to hide their wealth under the mattress for a decade or so to protect it from the government.

Plus the US government made the same blunder as did the British government: Our elites have gone on a money hunt around the globe and have created a global empire which costs far more to defend than the profits that it yields. An idiotic investment that is bankrupting us.

Don Williams,
You have the gift of insight, but you don't solve crazy with crazy, if you know what I mean.

"On the other hand, he does notice that the way it was ratified is more than a bit dodgy."

I'm not aware of the dodginess of the ratification process for the 13th, please explain.

Paul is compared to being a "prophet" over the stylings of Simon & Garfunkel

Are Ron Paul's words written on the subway walls and tenement halls?

I'm not aware of the dodginess of the ratification process for the 13th, please explain.

I think he's confusing the 13th with the 14th, whose ratification was indeed rather dodgy.

All I know is this: Paul sort of gives me the creeps. I'm pretty sure that he's somewhat of a whack job but on the other hand I'm nowhere near as scared of the possibility of his being president than I am with the thought that Rudy, Romney, Huckabee or Thompson might occupy the White House. In any case, one way or another the murderous sociopathic ape currently in office will be gone so things have to get better.

Of course removing the Federal Reserve and returning to the gold standard would mean that, since gold is appreciating so quickly, massive deflation would ensue and the economy would tank.

Good thing then that this isn't what Paul proposes. Do your homework and try a little harder next time. Paul has some radical ideas, but in the case of the gold standard he would simply allow a competing currency, not attempt to back all existing money with gold.

Re Northern Observer's comment "but you don't solve crazy with crazy, if you know what I mean"
------------
Sure you do.

People talk about how smart Jewish scholars are but no one is as smart as a fucking Chinaman.

1) And the smartest fucking Chinaman I ever came across was the philosopher Lao Tzu (circa 500 BC) -- with Sun Tzu (circa 450 BC? ) being a close second.

2) Lao Tzu explained how to govern:

"Therefore in the government of the sage,
he keeps their hearts peaceful
fills their bellies
weakens their ambitions
and strengthen their bones.

He always causes his people to be without cunning or desire,
and the crafty to be afraid to act"

As a long time member of the Libertarian party, who's at least moderately familiar with Paul, I think it would be fair to say he does not "oppose" the 13th amendment. On the other hand, he does notice that the way it was ratified is more than a bit dodgy.

Well as a long time member I guess you know better than me. Others have questioned about the dodgy bit (I am not aware of anything other than it happend in the context of a civil war). However irrespective of however dodgy the ratification might have been, if Paul agrees with the sentiments and substance of the amendement, what is exactly is his issue? That technically it wasn't kosher enough?

"I think he's confusing the 13th with the 14th, whose ratification was indeed rather dodgy."

Yeah, pretty much.

"owever irrespective of however dodgy the ratification might have been, if Paul agrees with the sentiments and substance of the amendement, what is exactly is his issue? That technically it wasn't kosher enough?"

I donno... What exactly IS the issue if you agree with the sentiments and substance of a constitutional amendment, but happen to think it wasn't legally ratified? Maybe just that it isn't really part of the Constitution?

In any event, I've tracked down several online documents by Paul which reference the 14th amendment, and none of them even hint at it not being a valid part of the Constitution. Although he has proposed amending it to abolish birthright citizenship for children born to people here illegally. Amending it.

Anyway, at this point, barring further evidence, I'm going to have to believe that the whole Paul/13-15th amendments thing is just another one of those scary rumors that are being distributed in an effort to spike his campaign.

Makes you wonder how scary an honest President really is to some people, that they feel the need to mobilize against somebody as unlikely to win as Paul.

donno... What exactly IS the issue if you agree with the sentiments and substance of a constitutional amendment, but happen to think it wasn't legally ratified? Maybe just that it isn't really part of the Constitution?

Well 'happen to think' is kind of a broad statement. Either something is legally ratified or something is not. If Paul (you?) thinks it wasn't legally ratified, then what exactly was illegal? I am genuinely interested. If it was illegal, why has there been no constitutional challenge to it?

"If it was illegal, why has there been no constitutional challenge to it?"

There was. The Supreme court declared the whole issue of whether or not an amendment Congress declared had been ratified was really ratified to be one of those non-judicable "political matters", kind of like the more recent "enrolled bill" contraversy. They really have very little stomach for enforcing the little procedural details of the Constitution.

Not long after the Supreme court rendered the whole issue moot for a couple generations by pulling the 14th amendment's teeth in the Slaughterhouse cases.

I tend to see the attacks by Neiwert, Drum, etc, as being motivated by fear that Democrats may lose control of the war as an issue

I think there's some truth to the second part. Ron Paul is the only outlet for Republicans who think the party is severely off course with the war, but who fundamentally don't agree with Democrats.

I think a lot of Republicans and conservative Independents split with the Republican party last election because of the war and gave their votes to Democrats despite the bad taste it left.

What have the Democrats done with that opportunity? They've made excuse after excuse for why they can't possibly get anything done with less than 67 votes in the Senate.

Having seen that there's effectively no difference between the two parties on this issue, those voters are now looking for another option.

For all the invectives and allegations about what Ron Paul said and what he meant by it, you should know that the simplest way to argue it is to look at the Congressman's House site.

He's been keeping a weekly record of his thoughts for the last 11 years, covering everything including the Iraq war, abortion, taxes, the Federal Reserve, immigration and the role of the government. There's plenty to applaud or attack there - why he opposes SCHIP, how he'd rebuild New Orleans (think tax credits), why he opposes the Iraq war, why he was troubled by the nomination of Samuel Alito. Just pick your favorite topic.

You want to push the conspiracy nut theme - try his views on the NAFTA superhighway or judicial review. You want to push him as a noble congressman fighting for personal liberty - check out his views on NSA spying, the Patriot Act or the unitary executive.

You can even go after his views on the Gold Standard if you like.

Enough of this "He said what?" - "No, he didn't." argument.

http://www.house.gov/paul/legis_tst.htm

Like grumpy old white man with guns Bellmore, Ron Paul was born in the wrong century.

Having long experience with Libertarians in the past, there is no question that some of them are a bit strange (compared to the perfectly and boringly "normal" Matt, anyway.) In fact, Jerome Tuccille, himself a radical individualist, wrote a book about it.

Compared to me, of course, they're Catholics. But I digress.

The bottom line here is that only if you've bought hook, line and sinker into the conventional wisdom - which, of course, Matt has done since he's too young and too ignorant not to (which doesn't explain why I never did even when I was in my teens) - can you think that Paul is somehow too "dangerous" to be President. He's far less dangerous than almost anybody else running - maybe even Kucinich.

Paul is a person of principle - to some degree, anyway. After all he started as a Libertarian and ended up a Republican. And as Bob Black, another major radical, once said, "Libertarians are just Republicans who smoke dope." However, he does believe what he says, for the most part. And that translates into some small degree of integrity.

Everybody else running doesn't believe what they say - they're merely bullshitting everybody else. Of course, some of what the Republicans say they believe, they probably do. But their underlying motivations aren't being revealed, all the same. Libertarians tend to believe in what they say (with the exception of the Lib moron back in the '70's who once said, "If lying helps, I say lie."

Personally, I'd rather have someone as President whose actual actions can be reasonably well predicted from his actual statements, whether I agree with them or not.

Voting in Hillary Clinton will be a definitive proof that nothing a politician says can be trusted. Bill Clinton already proved that by running as a Democrat and then acting like a conservative Republican for most of his terms, including sex scandals, corruption, and bombing other countries. He pardoned Marc Rich, for Christ's sakes!

Anybody who thinks Hillary is going to do better is living in a dream world.

Compared to anybody else running and any other President, Ron Paul would be the most predictable President in US history.

He would, for the same reason, of course, be the most ineffective President in history. He might even be assassinated within 24 hours of taking the oath. Nothing he tried to do would be implemented. He'd be reduced to vetoing practically every piece of legislation out of Congress. Both Republicans and Democrats would deny him any chance to reduce big government, install sound fiscal policy, or stop any wars. A few things he might get done if he could get a Republican majority on his side, but they wouldn't be very important.

And that's the problem with the US today. Nothing can be done that isn't corrupt.

And people like Matt think this is the way it should be, because they really have no concept of how the country should be run except more and bigger government. Their only quibble is with who should be running that bigger government.

Well, you're going to get Hillary Clinton or Rudy Giuliani. And you're welcome to either one.

And five years from now, I'll be here to tell you you got what you deserved, so STFU with your whining.

We anarchists have a few sayings:

1) Don't vote - it only encourages them.

2) No matter who you vote for, the government gets in power.

3) If voting could change the system, it would be illegal.

2008 - and the subsequent wars, economic problems, and corruption - will prove these sayings true yet again.

"He'd be reduced to vetoing practically every piece of legislation out of Congress."

Electing him would be worth it just for that; The press conferences where HE, instead of a press secretary, explained in excruciating detail exactly why he was vetoing all these bills, would be the cherry on top. They'd be a remarkable teaching occasion.

Alas, it's all a wonderful dream: If he's going to be assassinated, it's going to be when his election looks plausible, not after taking office.

The handwritten letter Brendan Nyhan posted on his blog is not the nutty Unabomer-type screed people are claiming it is.

What Paul is worrying about is:

The formation of a North American Union, where a lot of our decisions are made by an unaccountable bureaucracy, much as is done in the European Union. The idea that there are people pushing for international bodies that take away country's sovereignty is hardly nutty; the whole purpose of GATT, NAFTA, and other similar unions is to try to impose some countries' wills on others. There is no mention of jackbooted thugs or black helicopters or the like, and the fear is much more about the reasonable concern of the electorate losing the ability to influence our policy through their representatives than about the sudden imposition of tyranny.

As for the UN wanting to confiscate our firearms, the U.N. does push for the U.S. to have stronger firearms laws, which policies in most countries seem to have the end result of banning most or all guns.

As for the Law of the Sea, it's the normal concern about our country losing its autonomy.

Finally, the "use our military to police the world" does not mean "turn the world into a police state." He just doesn't want us to be busybodies in other countries' affairs, and sees the U.N. as being as likely to do that as Bush.

Either something is legally ratified or something is not. If Paul (you?) thinks it wasn't legally ratified, then what exactly was illegal?

When I wrote above that the ratification of the 14th amendment was rather dodgy, I was employing the rhetorical figure known as meiosis. It was actually a monstrous abuse of power by the radical Republicans. I happen to think that the 14th amendment is the Great Amendment, and that it was a really Good Idea, but the way it way imposed was wildly illegal and unconsitutional. First, all of the former confederate states were excluded from both houses of congress when the congress considered it. Then, when they still couldn't get to two thirds of the Senate, they expelled a Senator from New Jersey who opposed it. Then, when ten of the former confederate states rejected it, the congress enacted the "reconstruction acts" (over the president's veto) which resulted in Federal troops being sent in to ten state capitals, the state governments being suppressed by military force, new governments being imposed at gunpoint, and then these new governments ratifying the amendment. This actually goes beyond "dodgy", I think. Don't you?

Ron Paul is weird = I disagree with Ron Paul.

Hack's post at 8:19 gets to the core of things: because Paul is so strongly pro-civil rights and so strongly anti-imperialism, he may be the least dangerous candidate running. For government to get really scary, wars or dictatorship usually have to be involved.

The biggest risk with Paul is that his monetary policy views lead to another Great Depression, and I don't think he would get enough of them implemented to do that.

Paul is also a huge weirdo who seems a bit crazy.

also, this statement is offensive, condescending, and unsupported by any evidence. Paul's accomplished more with his life than Matt has. This kind of casual contempt is annoying.

This isn't a novel comment, but surely Ron Paul seems crazier because he had to come up with his bad ideas himself rather than inheriting them from the political mainstream. The gold standard is the idea of a real nutcase, but is it crazier than supply-side dogma? Is it crazier than thinking we should attack Iran? I'm not willing to say Paul is less crazy than the democratic front-runners, but he's less crazy than the republicans. It's just that we're seduced into believing that their craziness isn't really crazy, because talking heads repeat it day after day.

The positions of Kucinich and Gravel are probably closer to those of your typical Dem primary voter than any other candidates. For the most part Kucinich's views are not at all out of the actual mainstream.

Good points as always and Douthat is certainly right about Dean. However Gingrich is a nut job.
He is also an extreme reactionary, a hypocrite, a crook and incredibly was capable of lowering the level of political debate below an appalling level.

I think it is clear that Douthat was really honestly thinking of the case of Dean, but that he was not willing to agree with, say, Atrios, so he added the unconvincing claim that Gingrich the press presented Gingrich as being more extreme than he was and the absurd claim that he is a center rightist.

This is the man who undoubtably took 1984 to be an instruction manual when he wrote "Language as an instrument of control." He was not denouncing such an approach but rather recommending the use of words independent of facts or logic or the meaning of sentences.

I don't think you should cut and past the claim that Gingrich was a center right futurist without contesting it.


I've ponied up for Dem candidates before. I'll never do it again, because it's wasted dollars -- the only thing the Dems know is cowardly betrayal. I think there are lots of people thinking similarly (hint: they read the fucking papers). So, yeah, I think it's reasonable to surmise that Paul is benefiting from disgust with BOTH parties.

SGlover, i know you from back in the Plastic days.
Don't be so cynical. 50 years ago, everything we're fighting about was legal and unquestioningly accepted. The Democrats are somewhat corrupt and somewhat gutless, but many of them ultimately want to do the right thing.

Don Williams:

Plus we have the same structural problem the USA had in 1929: Deeply corrupt politics has concentrated wealth and income into the hands of a small minority , leading to a disconnect between supply and demand.

This was a smart post, Don Williams, but it can't be used to defend Ron Paul. Ron Paul would end the progressivity of the tax code, eliminate public education, public health regulation, banking regulation, the whole nine yards. He'd like to get rid of Social Security, even though it's not part of his platform. The closest parallel to the economic policies of Ron Paul are those of Herbert Hoover.

You can't find a politician on earth more anti-regulation than Ron Paul. You're right that inflation and money supply issues are hurting our economy, and it's the Fed's Fault - but you can't get rid of the Fed. It's just been following bad policies.

Without the federal reserve, the banking system would collapse. Banks would be free to ignore reserve/loan ratios and stock market crashes would cause runs on banks and hoarding. Believe it.

SGlover, i know you from back in the Plastic days.
Don't be so cynical. 50 years ago, everything we're fighting about was legal and unquestioningly accepted. The Democrats are somewhat corrupt and somewhat gutless, but many of them ultimately want to do the right thing.

Hey glasnost! If you're still tracking this thread -- Long time no "see", eh? Where's that blog you were gonna launch?

I guess it might be cynicism. Feels more like I've been going through several years of radicalization, though. I find it difficult to believe that very many Dems actually do "want to do the right thing". Or if they do, it's in some nice abstract way, far removed from taking risks, or actually doing something. I can't tell if you if you could even get them to describe what the "right thing" is. I don't think it goes beyond clinging to office, and gaining access to the public trough -- hardly a novelty among politicians, but it sure as hell doesn't rate my loyalty, let alone my dollars or my vote.

I'm fairly certain that the Dems want to keep the Iraq disaster shambling along, so that they can use it as a brickbat against the GOP. For all their special pleading, the Dems can stop this war, and head off the next one. But they haven't, and they won't. So whatever their motivations, by now they're full accomplices in the current epic strategic blunder, as they will be if we have a genuine catastrophe vis a vis Iran.

Although he's often more histrionic than I like, Arthur Silber gives a good summary of my growing revulsion for the Dems here.

Matthew, why don't you make yourself useful already by becoming a janitor? Calling anyone in US Congress a "huge weirdo" is not any sort of contribution to anything. Just because you can write in English does not mean you have anything meaningful to say.

Matt and Glasnost,

Ron Paul's economic policies will help SAVE this country, not DESTROY it like the current ones are. Namely the huge increases in money supply, and the orgy of borrowing and spending at the household, corporate and national levels.

The dollar is sinking like a stone, inflation is MUCH higher than the government is claiming; not to mention foreclosures are skyrocketing in Colorado and around the country.

Ron Paul's views are pretty much common sense - except in the Beltway with idealistic liberals like Matt who don't know economic basics from a hole in the ground.

Thankfully, I'm not, never have been, and never will be a leftist. Is this what the left has really become? A bunch of whiney, logically-challenged weenies? The radical sun of Marx has long set, so you're reduced to supporting an untenable status quo. I suppose it was inevitable, though. For your ideology was doomed from the start. No, we are witnessing, now, the rise of a consistent ideology: it's called libertarianism, folks. It will only continue to grow. Other than unsupported smears against Ron Paul and his supporters, I really don't see an argument you make. Simply saying someone is an extremist does not qualify as a persuasive argument.

"Ron Paul is Crazy"--he must have done SOMETHING "correct" to have successfully delivered more than 4,000 babies.

So what other candidate has ever done "outside work", other than be a life-long member within one of the wings of the "Governing Party"..?

And PLEASE don't say either "Lobbying" or Lawyering"..!! I'm talking about REAL WORK!

"Ron Paul is going to cause another Great Depression with his wacky gold money".

Anyone have a look at the US Dollar weighted index of late?

A number of years ago, one dollar "bought 1.65 in Euros. Right now, today here in the USA the reverse is true.

This oddity happened under Presidents representing BOTH Wings of the Governing Party.

One last note.

I'm getting rather sick and goddamned tired of the sudden ANTI-GENTILE hate speech, that is being spewed forth by the Anti-Gentile creeps.

STOP IT ALREADY!

You schmucks!

You other non-Gentiles start policing your own.

My tolorance concering this huge surge of routine Anti-Gentile Hate Speech is fading fast.

I want this Anti-Gentile Hate Speech Movement, nipped in the bud, while only the occasional putz is indulging in this new brand of Hate; that has appeared to have arrived upon the National Scene.

Matt is scared.. Not that Paul will win.. The establishment will sabotage him long before that happens. No, it's that Paul's economic views, his anti-war and pro-life positions are going to get a good airing. Horrors! Have to resort to ad hominem attacks, the substance of his positions can't be addressed, huh Matt?

Can't actually talk about what the Federal Reserve is, and does? (Who knows? Spooky.. Sepulchral visions of Greenspan dance in my head..) Can't talk about sovereignty and "free" trade? Can't talk about corporatism & corporate accountability?

Can't talk about a guy who actually has demonstrated principles, even when they are extremely unpopular, like opposing the Iraq war in 2003? He wasn't kooky then. Just right, and (of course) unpopular.

You go vote for the so very sane and reasonable Hilary or Guliani, and their oh so sane (sane?) "Beltway Consensus." Flip a coin, man. There is little effective difference between them. As for me, I'll take your so called kook.

The gentleman arguing against Ron Paul is a fool.Ron Pauls basic message is decentralizing the bloated corrupt federal government and returning power back to the people at state and local government.Actually by doing this it would create more prosperity not less.He is not out to eliminate unions,instantly destroying Social Security or take away minority voting rights.The money saved from fighting endless wars,more money in your own pocket and more local control of our government would create more jobs and higher wages not less

Huh. And I thought Matthew Yglesias was smart.

What a big fucking dummy.

Ron Paul, bitches.


Comments closed November 20, 2007.

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