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This Sounds Like a Really Fun Mission

18 Nov 2007 11:39 am

Fred Kagan and Michael O'Hanlon say we'd better get ready to deploy "a sizable combat force" to Pakistan for a mission that "would involve supporting the core of the Pakistani armed forces as they sought to hold the country together in the face of an ineffective government, seceding border regions and Al Qaeda and Taliban assassination attempts against the leadership." Now since this is obviously a terrible idea, Kagan and O'Hanlon endeavor to make it less terrible by assuming a can opener and arguing that this force should come "not only from the United States, but ideally also other Western powers and moderate Muslim nations."

This plan and a pony will get you a pony.

Even more stunning in some respects, as Max Bergmann points out for Democracy Arsenal, is that they're quick to assure us that despite the necessity of this coming occupation of Pakistan, it wouldn't "be strategically prudent to withdraw our forces from an improving situation in Iraq to cope with a deteriorating one in Pakistan." Thus indicating, as Bergmann says, that "Kagan and O'Hanlon clearly have a hidden stash of U.S. soldiers."

What's more, in what seems to be a growing trend among advocates of a hawkish defense posture, Kagan and O'Hanlon actually appear to concede in advance that their plan won't really work:

The task of stabilizing a collapsed Pakistan is beyond the means of the United States and its allies. Rule-of-thumb estimates suggest that a force of more than a million troops would be required for a country of this size. Thus, if we have any hope of success, we would have to act before a complete government collapse, and we would need the cooperation of moderate Pakistani forces.

Can you imagine a responsible member of the Pakistani military inviting a large foreign military presence into the country as a prophylactic measure against a government collapse that hasn't actually happened? Can you imagine what the popular response to that would be? People already seem tired of living under a military dictatorship over there -- transforming it into a military dictatorship that involved tons of foreign troops seems very unlikely to shift that calculus.

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Comments (71)

Well said. This is truly a moronic idea.

I should also add that O'Hanlon (and his fabulous Iraq index) still remains in the Brookings institution, while people like Flynt Leverett who did much to reveal the dangerous approach of the Bush administration vis a vis Iran did not have his contract renewed.

I was wondering what we were going to do with those million extra troops we've got.

All they have to do is to revoke the orders given to the Indian Army after the Kargill fiasco that the Indians are not to march into Lahore.

Indian takeover of Pakistan will not necessarily solve any problem either, but at least Americans won't die for the fantasies of the O'Hanlons.

The US invading ANOTHER Muslim country?

Yeah, that will go over really well. I am certain other Muslim nations will be breaking down the door to sign up for that wise plan.

Pakistan got any earl?

Awesome post.

Re gregor

Mr. gregor makes a good point. A Pakistan falling apart is a much greater threat to India then to the US. I suspect that in the event of collapse of authority in Pakistan, the Indian army will march in and take control of Pakistans' nuclear arsenal.

That column has to be read to be believed. Even then, it's hard to believe that it was written by Oh So Serious People With Really Impressive Titles At Washington Think-Tanks.

Even if they were talking about a game of Risk they would sound like idiots.

I would love it if NYT would solicit a military expert to evaluate their crackpot plan. It's about as asinine as eight year olds talking about GI Joe.

That "rule of thumb" estimate is also way off. Using their standard in that article, we should have went into Iraq with 250,000 men, which was still half as much as Shinseki testified to Congress that we should have gone in with. So when the mathematically challenged O'Hanlon and stupid, fat, doughy, asshole Kagan say "a million", they should really be saying "two million".

Actually, I think this is extremely good news indeed.

Having America invade Pakistan---chaotic, population of 200M, nukes and missiles, and fanatically anti-American---is just TOO crazy for even the neocons to get their way with Bush and the Pentagon.

Meanwhile, for them to focus on this diverts their efforts their efforts away from pressuring us to bomb Iran, which is just crazy enough to possibly still happen.

I hope we'll see many, many, MANY more crazy neocon pundits calling for us to invade Pakistan, and maybe India, too, for good measure...

And if Bush ever did somehow give the order to invade Pakistan, I think our generals would just shoot him, Cheney, and all the neocons, which would work out very nicely...

You know what really takes the cake? We helped fund Pakistan's nuclear weapons program!

Brilliant!

Imperialism is a messy business isn't it?

...of course, the Kagan/O'Hanlon plan would do wonders for oil prices and our economy as well. Just what that region of the world needs - more instability!

I too look forward to a time when $3/gallon gasoline will seem absurdly cheap!

What, you've never heard of a preemptive pony?

The awful part of this is that O'Hanlon sounds so serious in the way he makes his lunatic ravings, that it'll be picked up by Fred Hiatt in no time. Look for this to go viral next week, folks. It's thoughtful and serious!

Wow.

"We need to think — now — about our feasible military options in Pakistan, should it really come to that."

And the feasible option is that Special Forces units will enter the country; find, capture, and box up all the nuclear weapons; truck -- or maybe maglev? -- them up to the Karakorams; and then just sit on them until... when? The infeasible options must be really interesting.

I think Renato hits it on the head when he says this even if they were playing Risk they'd be idiots.

That is precisely what's most shocking. O'Hanlon fancies himself some sort of foreign policy expert. He works for the very serious Brookings Institution. Glenn Greenwald has pointed this out himself but it bears focusing on once again. Take a moment to look at O'Hanlon's bio over at Brookings: http://www.brookings.edu/experts/o/ohanlonm.aspx

The guy is purportedly an "expert" on Iraq policy; Tiawan policy; North Korea policy. Is this some kind of absurd joke? I am surprised his bio didn't include the fact that the guy also ocassionally dables in astrophysics and during his downtime plays 18 different instruments. But the real kicker is the fact that despite being an expert in everything his only language fluency beyond English is French. Awesome.

I think Renato hits it on the head when he says this even if they were playing Risk they'd be idiots.

That is precisely what's most shocking. O'Hanlon fancies himself some sort of foreign policy expert. He works for the very serious Brookings Institution. Glenn Greenwald has pointed this out himself but it bears focusing on once again. Take a moment to look at O'Hanlon's bio over at Brookings: http://www.brookings.edu/experts/o/ohanlonm.aspx

The guy is purportedly an "expert" on Iraq policy; Tiawan policy; North Korea policy. Is this some kind of absurd joke? I am surprised his bio didn't include the fact that the guy also ocassionally dables in astrophysics and during his downtime plays 18 different instruments. But the real kicker is the fact that despite being an expert in everything his only language fluency beyond English is French. Awesome.

You have to love insights like this:

....For the United States, the safest bet would be shipping the material to someplace like New Mexico; but even pro-American Pakistanis would be unlikely to cooperate. More likely, we would have to settle for establishing a remote redoubt within Pakistan, with the nuclear technology guarded by elite Pakistani forces backed up (and watched over) by crack international troops. It is realistic to think that such a mission might be undertaken within days of a decision to act. The price for rapid action and secrecy, however, would probably be a very small international coalition....
Moving Paksitan's nukes to New Mexico???
or their Fortress of Solitude idea?
what next? The Justice League, headed by Superman and Green Lantern will move the nukes to the 23 dimension where Mr.Mzytpledjk will guard them.

A little down the road, when we're all watching Mr. O'Hanlon and his friends being water-boarded live on network television, one of the questions I hope they ask is: "Were you really being serious, or just pulling our leg?"...

Hey, war is fun! 'specially if you don't have to be the one fightin' it. Of course we should send troops to Pakistan -- they're dark, right? It's like they're askin' fer it!

Sure, a US military detachment guarding Pakistan's nuclear weapons sounds controversial, even counter productive.

But what if those special forces were actually squads of beautiful and seductive gymnastic ninja assassin women in salwar kameez?

Are we still on for an invasion of Iran as well or is that option off the table?

Kagan and O'Hanlon left out our most realistic option, which is to convene a summit of all Superfriends, have them to freeze time, seize Pakistan's nuclear materials, and launch them to the planet Krypton.

You people are so silly. It's obvious that the 1 million foreign troops should come from India.

What, no white Christian missionaries ? Any thoughtful insertion of 1 million U.S. troops to Pakistan must be accompanied by thousands of evangelist missionaries from the Air Force Academy. What's bread without a good circus ?

Like Hitler moving imaginary armies around on a map as the Soviet armies were closing in on Berlin.

Why not go for the trifecta and hit Iran while we're at it? We'll just send a third army in there to take care of business.

I think I feel a final Big Stoopid coming from this administration before they leave--or are dragged from--office, but I hope this is not it.

¿Quién es el m0th@rfucker ma's stupidest del mundo? ¿Señor Feith o señor ÓHanlon?

I think it's time to reprint cleek's genius pony chart, but alas, no images here. See this post (and cleek can chime in with the orginal).

In O'Hanlon and Kagan's world, everybody gets a pony!

Forgot to mention O'Kanlan's money quote of the day, the week, the month, the year, the decade, the millenium:


So, if we got a large number of troops into the country, what would they do?

Clusterfuckalypse now!

Chutzpah for you. These two idiots get to have another opinion piece published. Yep: off to Pakistan and see what happens. Do the people who publish this junk leave their brains and commonsense at the door?

Not to quibble, but assuming a can opener is a blatant rip off of assuming a spherical cow, and since I hold economists in higher regard than janitors, I object.

Perhaps this has been covered, but...

Early on Kagan and O'Hanlon write:

"...unless we had precise information about the location of all of Pakistan’s nuclear weapons and materials, we could not rely on bombing or using Special Forces to destroy them."

Their suggestion, later on, is to move all nuclear weapons to New Mexico (a suggestion that really has to be tongue-in-cheek) or some heavily guarded redoubt within Pakistan.

For it to work, doesn't this alternative require that we have the same precise information about the location of ALL of Pakistan's nuclear weapons and material?

Their article is satire, right?!?!?!?!

Intervention by India would ensure the immediate collapse and defeat of any moderate Pakistani forces still guarding the Paki nukes. The programming is too strong, an Indian invasion will mean the moderates defect to the extremists.

India will stay on the sidelines on this one.

The main possibility of staving off the collapse of a beseiged Pakistani moderate force holding off extremists elements would be to attack the extremists in their bastions of strength - i.e., the NorthWest of Pakistan. This will have to then be US-NATO-Afghan. It is not clear to me that even that would work, because the extremists know that getting hold the nukes guarantees their survival.

The CW that Douglas Feith is the stupidest fucking person on the planet is increasingly challenged by the Kagan/O'Hanlon megalith of dumb.

An Indian POV:
http://www.saag.org/%5Cpapers25%5Cpaper2465.html

Quote:
(B). THE IRANIAN SCENARIO: The jihadis and the fundamentalist political parties join hands, take advantage of the unpopularity of Musharraf and the US, organise a street revolution, capture power and proclaim an Islamic State. Unlikely. The majority of the Pakistanis are against the fundamentalists and the jihadis. In the elections of 2002, which was the best year for the Pakistani fundamentalists since Pakistan became independent in 1947, they could win only 11 per cent of the votes polled. Eighty-nine per cent voted for non-religious parties. There is no evidence to show further support for the fundamentalist parties. In the Pakistan Army, there is no support for the fundamentalists at the level of Lt.Gens. The Lt.Gens. may not be averse to using the fundamentalists and the jihadis against India or for regaining their position in Afghanistan, but they would not like them to capture power in Islamabad. There is some support for the fundamentalists and the jihadis at the level of Maj.Gens. and below. This support is worrisome, but not yet alarming.If there is real danger of the fundamentalists and the jihadis coming to power, the Army and the various non-religious political parties will join hands to prevent it.

An Indian POV:
http://www.saag.org/%5Cpapers25%5Cpaper2465.html

Quote:
(B). THE IRANIAN SCENARIO: The jihadis and the fundamentalist political parties join hands, take advantage of the unpopularity of Musharraf and the US, organise a street revolution, capture power and proclaim an Islamic State. Unlikely. The majority of the Pakistanis are against the fundamentalists and the jihadis. In the elections of 2002, which was the best year for the Pakistani fundamentalists since Pakistan became independent in 1947, they could win only 11 per cent of the votes polled. Eighty-nine per cent voted for non-religious parties. There is no evidence to show further support for the fundamentalist parties. In the Pakistan Army, there is no support for the fundamentalists at the level of Lt.Gens. The Lt.Gens. may not be averse to using the fundamentalists and the jihadis against India or for regaining their position in Afghanistan, but they would not like them to capture power in Islamabad. There is some support for the fundamentalists and the jihadis at the level of Maj.Gens. and below. This support is worrisome, but not yet alarming.If there is real danger of the fundamentalists and the jihadis coming to power, the Army and the various non-religious political parties will join hands to prevent it.

Further:
http://www.saag.org/%5Cpapers25%5Cpaper2459.html

Quote:
5. It has been my view that while constant US pressure on Musharraf to repeatedly use his Air Force against suspect madrasas and alleged Al Qaeda hide-outs in the tribal area has partly contributed to the jihadi upsurge, Musharraf cannot escape his own share of responsibility for the increase in the activities of Al Qaeda and pro-Al Qaeda jihadi terrorists in Pakistani territory. His predecessors as military dictators had the good sense to realise that the Army alone cannot effectively govern the country and maintain law and order without the co-operation of the Police and other civilian bureaucracy.

6. The Police has an important role in counter--insurgency and counter-terrorism. They act as the eyes and ears of the Government even in the remotest of villages. They know the community better than the Army. Gen.Zia ul-Haq and other military dictators of the past tried to strengthen the self-pride and elan of the Police in order to secure their co-operation for the Army. Musharraf was the first military dictator, who sought to humiliate the Police right from the day he took over in October, 1999, and marginalise its role. He appointed junior and middle-level Army officers---some serving, some retired--- as monitors of the performance of senior police officers. There were shocking instances where senior Police officers, holding a position equivalent to the rank of a Maj. Gen. in the Army, were asked to report to army officers of the rank of Major or even Captain. These junior officers, who knew very little of the community, were asked to write the annual performance report of very senior police officers. Musharraf also started an exercise to militarise the Intelligence Bureau (IB) of the Ministry of the Interior, which, in the past, used to be largely, if not predominantly, staffed by Police and other civilian officers. The IB of Pakistan shared the same civilian traditions and work practices as its Indian counterpart. Musharraf sought to change this in order to give the Army a greater role in the IB. There was a similar mishandling of the non-police sections of the civilian bureaucracy.

7. The result: A drying-up of the flow of intelligence not only from the tribal areas, but also from other parts of the country as well. Police officers hardly investigated terrorism-related cases either because of their resentment with Musharraf or because of a fear of incurring the wrath of the terrorists." It serves the Army and Musharraf right" was their attitude. There was neither effective prevention nor successful investigation in most cases. Successful investigation and prosecution is an important deterrent to the spread of terrorism. This is hardly to be found in Pakistan.

DocktorN, I object to this: "Like Hitler moving imaginary armies around on a map as the Soviet armies were closing in on Berlin."
I think it is much more like Charlie Chaplin, playing Hitler, dancing with a big globe.

Of course, O'Hanlon probably already has a seat waiting for him as some kind of hotshot in the Clinton administration - it will be a bipartisan move at the state department, and will bring about a rare endorsement from the dean of journalism and the spokesman for the Common Man, David Broder! - and after a few obstreperous peeps from the Dem leaning bloggers, he'll just be accepted as such.

We'll use half our forces in Iraq, the other half in Iran, the third half in Pakistan, a third in Syria, the other third in North Korea ...

Their article is satire, right?!?!?!?!

it's a sign of our times, that The Onion is often eclipsed by reality.

gregor,
The Indian Army will not invade Pakistan. There is no political will for such actions. Also, most Indians realize that once Pakistan is even partially invaded, its internal situation and security becomes India's problem, and it would be foolish to add such problems to the ones that India already faces. Also, history shows that India has no inclination for occupying and extending its territorial suzerainity. It had opportunities in 1971 but did not take them.

Wow. So let's see, our lurch into Iraq allows OBL to hole up in Pakistan putting AQ next in line for Peshawar Nukes. Our saber rattling at Iran puts Putin in bed with Ahmedinejad, giving him and ally's access to Moscow Nukes. Can we get a do-over?

I am fairly sure that some Army general (Odierno?) testified before Congress this past week, that our military is pretty much broken and unable to respond to any further international crises should they arise.

And still, Very Serious People insist we must go to war with Iran, and now Pakistan.

Draft the Young Republicans and tax the rich to pay for these new wars, if we must have them.

The Justice League, headed by Superman and Green Lantern will move the nukes to the 23 dimension where Mr.Mzytpledjk will guard them.

That's stupid, there's at most only 11 dimensions.

And if India invaded Pakistan we wouldn't have to worry about Pakistan's nukes, we'd have to worry about the fallout from Pakistan's nukes.

Couldn't we just ask Wal-Mart to rent the Chinese army for a few weeks, and then invade Pakistan with 2 million Chinese troops.

(And then, while all the Chinese PLA troops are away, we can send the entire employment force of Wal-Mart to China to occupy them!!!)

"The Justice League, headed by Superman and Green Lantern will move the nukes to the 23[rd] dimension where Mr.Mzytpledjk will guard them."

That's stupid, there's at most only 11 dimensions.

Well, that depends on whether or not Lil' Boots is writing the Story. You know the penchant these Republican Imams have for making shit up.

What bothers me most about these scenarios (a limited bombing of Iran's Republican Guard sites vs. attacking Iran's nuclear infrastructure, leading to all-out war; a limited deployment of American troops to Pakistan to protect its Nukes in the face of Islamosomething vs. "depending on diplomacy") is that it appears Cheney / Bush are trying to find some way, any way, to push a military action which a majority of the general officer corps could support.

One that definitely leads to a pony, only if the pony immediately grows up to be ridden by one of the Four Horsemen.

Of course, when things take a turn for the worse -- Iran hits our ships in the Gulf, or our troops in Pakistan are attacked by Islamosomething -- it'll be easier for Cheney to do convince the military to take the next step, and the next, to arrive at what he wants... with Lil' Boots' cooing with Sock Puppet pleasure.

(Wasn't 'Islamosomething' a character in "Earth X"? BTW, you'd want Alex Ross to do the art, but if Bootsie's the writer, he'd probably refuse).

Are we going to do this before or after we invade Iran?

Some of these people have floated the idea of a draft and wartime censorship and restrictions on free speech. They've been waiting for a disaster big enough to justify that. Pakistan may be it.

If we're gonna go to war, we're gonna have to raise the taxes!

Hey! I got-a an uncle he lives in-a Texas!

Just want to note that they didn't the Iraq invasion would work either. Recall this:

Then the last panelist spoke. He was an Iraqi dissident named Kanan Makiya, and he said, ''I'm afraid I'm going to strike a discordant note.'' He pointed out that Iraqis, who will pay the highest price in the event of an invasion, ''overwhelmingly want this war.'' He outlined a vision of postwar Iraq as a secular democracy with equal rights for all of its citizens. This vision would be new to the Arab world. ''It can be encouraged, or it can be crushed just like that. But think about what you're doing if you crush it.'' Makiya's voice rose as he came to an end. ''I rest my moral case on the following: if there's a sliver of a chance of it happening, a 5 to 10 percent chance, you have a moral obligation, I say, to do it.''

Really, the whole thing was captured by Friedman.

Suck. On. This.

And now what we've got is proof positive this stuff doesn't work, but they're going to advocate doing it anyway, because all they have in their toolchest is a hammer.

We have reached across the oceans and wantonly destroyed a nation.
And got nothing for it. Worse than nothing.

The attached like claims that US forces are already in Pakistan helping to guard the Pakistanian nuclear arsenal.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/18/washington/18nuke.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin

This article would have been better as a fairy tale. Take the dreamy hope: ideally we could move Pakistan's nukes to New Mexico. Why not space? Why not turn them into solar powered greenhouses that grow flowers that create lovely aromas? In a children's book, they could extend the fancy even further : how about disgorging Pakistan from the Indian subcontinent's landmass and moving it out into the Indian ocean and way south! Then they wouldn't live next door to country that they fought 5 wars with and woudln't need nukes! Islands tend to liberal and peaceful (with important exceptions). Plus it would be sunny. I bet they would chill out and cut out all the jihad.

My favorite part of this article is probably the fact that they view the continuation of the war in Iraq as so important that's its not worth using the forces there to prevent nuclear weapons from falling into terrorist hands in Pakistan. That's the logic of the article. They're not just for the war in Iraq, there are really really for it.

This plan and a pony will get you a pony.

Actually, I'm pretty sure that this plan and a pony will get you a dead pony.

Fuck a duck! I didn't think your classic neo-cons were THAT deranged. They really DO have calliope music spinning around in their "brains", eh?

Read/heard about Deception: Pakistan, the United States and the Global Nuclear Weapons Conspiracy?

The New York Times doesn't really have any standards, do they? This crap should never see the light of day. It's completely nonsensical garbage.

Some of these people have floated the idea of a draft and wartime censorship and restrictions on free speech. They've been waiting for a disaster big enough to justify that. Pakistan may be it.

Only if a significant number of American soldiers, sailors or airmen were killed -- say, in the sinking of a supercarrier in the Gulf by an Iranian Sunflower antiship missle.

If Pakistan's 60-some-odd nukes are compromised or stolen ... in the minds of many people, it's happening half a world away. The continuing CDO/SIV meltdown takes up more of our vision than Pakistan's nukes; it has to be something Cheney can claim to be an act of war.

Loose nukes 20,000 miles away don't seem to play heavily enough to generate support for a drastic change in America. A new 9/11-sized attack inside the United States would -- it would provide everything Cheney and those around him want to put in motion, and more.

And, the Peevish Dullard would only think of it as another chance to shine as the Sainted War Leader; Bush wouldn't care if the Constitution and Bill of Rights were pulled from their cases and shredded, so long as he's allowed to play president.

How often must a conservative be wrong before their opinions are simply laughed at and ignored by the Sunday morning bobbleheads?

My guess is that Indian commandos will beat us to it try to secure the nuclear sites immediately.

Do you think when Kagan and O'Hanlon are pushing their thumbs in and out of their asses, that the question "What do you think the possibe number of casualties will be?" ever comes up?

EVER?!

Even for shits and giggles?!

And that applies to the entire Republican party.

The day that George Bush allowed his family friend, Osama Bin Laden, to get away at Tora Bora because of the reluctance to commit a few thousand men to the operation (despite the thousands we have lost since then for nothing) is a day that may turn out to have been the most disastrous in our history.

But what can we do now? Any doomed attempt to prop up Musharraf will probably do nothing more than massively intensify the hatred of the Pakistani population toward the U.S. and make the likelihood of nuclear terrorism that much greater.

It seems that we would have a better chance of finding and identifying al-Qaeda, including OBL, than finding all of Pakistan's and A.Q. Khan's nuclear weapons. And I think it might be possible to do it while alienating only a radical province that already despises us rather than the entire country.

I'm always skeptical about the use of military force and I was opposed to the Iraq war before the invasion. But what do people on this thread think about the advisability of using the unrest in Pakistan to get Musharraf to allow us to put a couple hundred thousand troops in Waziristan on the largest manhunt in history? Perhaps if we can't eliminate the weapons or stabilize the country, we can eliminate al Qaeda -- the REAL al Qaeda -- and thus reduce the threat of the Islamic bomb?

The real point is that they have no plan. They are at a loss, and they know it. The real problem they are trying to cover up with their "strategic" ideas is that our involvment in Iraq has so exhausted us militarily and diplomatically that we have no options for dealing with a very serious problem. In one sense, there is really no point in arguing with them because there is nothing really there to argue with. Kagan, O'Hanlon, et al. have become a bunch of empty shells who can only make more noise because they are empty. The real problem is that we may be on the edge of the blow back from the Iraq adventure.

This idea is AWESOME. They should put it into effect IMMEDIATELY.

"That's stupid, there's at most only 11 dimensions."

Actually, the latest continuity has it at 52, and if you include the anti-matter universe of Qward, 53.

And however divorced from actual real-world reality that statement may be, it's still a hell of a lot more factually based than anything in the Kagan/O'Hanlon Op-Ed.

O'Hanlon is a foreign policy advisor to Hillary. How comforting to know that another Clinton administration will be advised by those who have no idea what they're talking about.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/opinions/documents/the-war-over-the-wonks.html

I'm not sure if I'm a fan of this op-ed, but you're too hard on it. One of the options described here merely involves a plan to secure nuclear material in the face of a state collapse - not the occupation or invasion of Pakistan.

I think that limited preparation is a very good and neccesary idea.

"Iranian Sunflower antiship missle."

That's Sunburn and it's Russian and it hasn't been proven that the Iranians have them. I'm not saying they don't, I just don't have any credible references to say they do.

If they do, there's still a chance that the latest upgrades to US ship defenses can handle them - IF they don't fire a bunch at once, that is. If they do, odds are they'll drop at least one US surface ship. Not likely to be a carrier, though, unless the US is really stupid and leaves one actually in the Straits or anywhere near the Iranian coastline in the Gulf.

As for this "plan", of course it's not a plan. The problem is multiple. First, you have to get the agreement of the Pakistani military - assuming you're talking to the RIGHT Pakistani military - to allow the US to take possession or control of the weapons. If you've got that, then you'll know where they are - probably. Verifying that would be critical - you can't afford to lose ANY.

Then the issue becomes what to do with them. You can't just say "protect them" because what that really means is: what's the military situation here? Are we going to "protect them" from the whole country's population - or even the five percent that maybe is actively supporting the "revolution" or civil war? Sorry, not enough troops - especially if the "crack Pakistani troops" are off fighting the "revolution" or the "civil war".

If they aren't, then what does the likely outcome of the military situation look like? Do we need to move them? If so, how big are they? How much transport do you need? Pakistani has what, fifty nukes? What about the plans, documentation, etc.?

Reportedly Pakistan has no Permissive Action Links on the weapons - just separation of components to keep them inactive and safe. So we have make sure we get every single piece of fissile material and every single activation component. Then we have to keep them separate while they're moved.

Remember how we moved six live nukes recently because supposedly our procedures were ignored? Imagine doing fifty moves with broken up parts in the middle of a crisis. Yes, you are going to lose some. Or you might lose the documentation explaining how they are constructed and armed.

Depending on where the nukes are stored and how, and what the collateral damage is, it might actually be better to just tactically nuke them and make sure nobody will ever use them.

Of course, both of these options leaves Pakistan as a country wide open to India if it decides to make a move. But since the country is presumably already in a collapse at that point, that probably won't matter.

But the notion of stationing any significant number of US troops in Pakistan for any length of time greater than needed to neutralize the nukes is simply insane. Nothing could be more guaranteed to collapse the Pakistani state and hand it over to the Islamists.

While the Islamic parties per se don't get much support in Pakistan, their belief systems do. Quite a high percentage of Pakistanis believe Sharia Law should be a bigger part of the Pakistani system. The eleven percent election results don't accurately reflect the overall positive support the Islamists get from the population. Some polls show bin Laden getting more positive results than Musharraf or Bush.

And the more the Pakistani government cracks down on Islamists, and the more the US supports that government, the better the Islamists will do in the polls. That's absolutely obvious.

"Even if they were talking about a game of Risk they would sound like idiots.

posted by renato"

Just like the morons who promoted the invasion of Iraq. A group of underdeveloped adolescents playing a board game.

I like this little bit:

"The task of stabilizing a collapsed Pakistan is beyond the means of the United States and its allies."

Which means it must be time for a milk and cookies break.

"The attached like claims that US forces are already in Pakistan helping to guard the Pakistanian nuclear arsenal."

Well, if true, then at least our billions in baksheesh to Musharraf have bought SOMETHING worthwhile.

after reading Fred Kagan and Michael O'Hanlon i thought all americans are morons. that also explained the deep shit world is in because of uncle sam, but the comments on article do tell me that there are still wise heads in u.s.a, plz reclaim ur dear homeland from idiots like these(Kagan, O'Hanlon ). well then u r free to "secure" others arsenal.


Comments closed December 02, 2007.

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