« Everyday Afghanistan | Main | King of All Internet-Related Political Media » Better than Debates13 Dec 2007 02:07 pm Watching the Mitchell Report press conference now. I'm left once again to wonder if the NBA has a performance enhancing drug problem lurking beneath the service. Why would it only be baseball? There's no test for HGH, right? Here's what David Stern had to say to congress about the NBA's drug policy. UPDATE: Here's the PDF of the report. Comments (56)
At this point it would be absolutely astonishing to me to discover that any major sport didn't have a systemic drug use problem. It just isn't plausible. 
Stern says that in the first 6 years of testing, only 3 players were suspended for testing positive for steroids. Interesting.
A Red Sox Director finds the Yankees' two best starters of the last decade used steroids. I thought excuses and the persecution complex died with the cures, but I guess not.
"Curse." Second time in as many days.
Good point, RJ. The fact that Yankees are mixed up in the steroids scandal certainly is an indicator of excuse-making by the Red Sox! And we haven't even gotten into the Sox' nefarious scheme to get Jason Giambi onto the Yankees...
RJ, clearly the persecution complex didn't die--it just took up residence with Yankee fans.
Nope. No drug problem in the NBA. Or any serious gambling by refs. Or game-fixing. Or even any mistakes by refs. Yessiree, no problems here.
NBA commentators like to point out that steroids certainly aren't as beneficial to basketball players as they are to other athletes. This seems plausible, given how much basketball players rely on mobility. 20th century Barry Bonds could have played Basketball, whereas 21st century Barry Bonds would have been terrible. Doesn't mean they're not used at all, but I'm not certain which particular basketball players you could point to. The NBA needs to address its refs first. Stern seems to want to sweep it under the rug though.
My guess is that if there is a drug problem in the NBA, (and hell, there is everywhere else, so why not?) it's probably a problem with stimulants-- cocaine, maybe, or more likely something I've never heard of. Bulking up doesn't make you a better basketball player, generally. (Though maybe this explains why the game's gotten less interesting for me over the years?)
A Red Sox Director finds the Yankees' two best starters of the last decade used steroids. I thought excuses and the persecution complex died with the cures, but I guess not. Clemens was also one of the Red Sox's best starters, idiot. He won at least one of his Cy Young's with the BoSox, and was the major factor in their 1986 pennant. Why don't you get a modicum of sports knowledge before you criticize the good senator?
Henry Abbott of TrueHoop has an interesting interview series with NBA referee Bennett Salvatore in an NBA-sponsored PR thing. Even when faced with several examples of clearly incorrect calls, he refuses to admit any errors. Also, Henry tells us about another camera angle (from above) that the NBA records but doesn't release to the public. Sometimes, the NBA reminds me of the Bush administration with it's disregard for facts and stubborn refusal to accept. It's as if the league is afraid it will fall apart if it admits a single mistake.
Am I crazy to think that steroids wouldn't make sense for most NBA players? Like you've mentioned, mobility is key, but don't they also increase the injury risk, which is particularly perilous given the NBA's grueling lifestyle, or is that a myth?
Rippie, the Red Sox have long turned against Clemens, it doesn't surprise me at all that they would turn against him. I am rather suspicious, however, about the complete lack of current members of the Red Sox team from this report. While it may or may not be true that the Red Sox never dope, it would be a lot easier for me to believe that if this report came from a neutral source. Which it does not... As a Red Sox director, Mitchell has a huge conflict of interest here that should be acknowledged.
[i]This seems plausible, given how much basketball players rely on mobility. 20th century Barry Bonds could have played Basketball, whereas 21st century Barry Bonds would have been terrible. Doesn't mean they're not used at all, but I'm not certain which particular basketball players you could point to.[/i]
Look at the bodies of some of the NBA guys, and compare them to other Olympic athletes. Kevin Garnett bulked up pretty quickly, didn't he? Or what about Charles Oakley? Karl Malone? Sure, Allen Iverson probably does nothing more than smoke a ton of weed, but the idea that somehow basketball is immune to the widespread use of PEDs is nonsense. Only a decade ago, Mark McGwire was telling us that steroids don't help your eye hand co-ordination, and thus no one in baseball was taking them.
Bulking up doesn't make you a better basketball player, generally. It might if you are a power forward or a center. There used to be rumors about Jayson Williams, who could bench 400# (the one who killed his chauffeur, not the one in the terrible motorcycle wreck, or the one who thinks the US won the Vietnam War).
Interestingly, the widely rumored name of "Pujols" did not appear anywhere in the report.
anyone who wasn't suspicious about the remarkable change in physique of (e.g.) jordan and pippen was just plain naive. not saying they were juicing, lots of guys get more muscular as they age as they keep at it. and the NBA may have more absolute genetic freakdom to begin with than (e.g.) MLB, so the players may not need the boost. but have you seen the guns on mourning? or mason or whoever before him? and you're not at all suspicious (particularly with zo playing with so much "intensity")? as others note, there's a large number of NBA players who are just ridiculously muscled compared to just about anyone, in any sport. (howard?? robinson?? what's with guys that tall being that ripped?) this is all actually somewhat odd to me, because i would least expect use of roids in MLB, as compared to NFL and/or NBA. shows what i know.
"Look at the bodies of some of the NBA guys, and compare them to other Olympic athletes. Kevin Garnett bulked up pretty quickly, didn't he? Or what about Charles Oakley? Karl Malone?" No. Malone was a big guy in college. Oakley was a big guy before. Are you really saying Garnett has bulked up? Seriously? Have you seen a picture lately? The guy's as skinny as he ever was. Basketball players bulk a bit as they age - look at Duncan coming into the league and now - but using steroids would be disastrous. For no other sport does mobility have such importance. Steroids in the NBA? Hardly. Weed? Yes. But the league turns a semi-blind eye to marijuana, IIRC giving players plenty of time to prepare for tests. But big deal -- pot doesn't affect on the court performance. If anything, it might help prolong a career due to aiding in relaxation (Robert Parish, anyone?). Cocaine is an issue, I'm sure. It was a major issue. You guys seem to forget, or don't know, that the NBA has already had its dark days of drug use. The late 70s and early 80s were a terrible time for the league, and it's dealt with its Roy Tarpleys and Michael Ray Richardsons... who it BANNED from the league. It has no intention of going back to those days, and I sincerely believe drugs are not a major issue here, unless you think a pizly thing like pot smoking is a major issue. Comparing the NBA to the Bush administration is purely asinine. The MLB would do well to follow its lead.
dj super -- I think you just accused David Robinson of doing steroids. Laughable. You're simply freaking out over professional players who, as you say, are already freakish enough, taking splendid care of their bodies. These are men that eat extremely well, spend their waking moments in the highest class of physical human endeavor, and you're surprised they have muscles. Have you ever seen the NFL? Why aren't you whining about running backs in football? Basketball has caught your eye because of the uniforms. Only because their arms are uncovered have you noticed anything at all, when most power positions in any sport will show you the same body.
For no other sport does mobility have such importance. Which proves that Ben Johnson and Marion Jones could not possibly have been steroids abusers...
For no other sport does mobility have such importance. Well, maybe track and field, which is why it is demonstrably the cleanest sport around.
I don't know nearly enough about steroid use to go beyond the guesses I gave above. GtheK may be correct. I think the question we clearly need to answer here is do Steroids make you jump higher. I don't think anyone ever bought McGwire's bullshit, did they? Baseball is a game of quick, powerful exertion. It's ideal for steroids. And it is very very well known, and has been for a while, that mediocre baseball players take lots of steroids. This is largely attributable to the ultra competitive minor leagues, where guys are desperate for any edge that might get them to the MLB. This is probably true of any sport - if you think you are on the edge of being kicked out of the league, you're more likely to turn to steroids.
actually, i didn't accuse robinson of juicing. i would never accuse the admiral of juicing, because i'm absolutely sure he never would. i'm just noting the bodies are suspicious -- and some of the actions -- but no one ever seems to inquire. that is, the NBA has guys with romo's physique and attitude issues, but i've never heard whispers re rhoids. maybe cause it's not happening at all. but why would the NBA be immune? (and there was no hint in the early jordan or pippen that they would become the absolutely insanely ripped guys they became.) and i'm not whining, i'm well aware of nfl physiques, even note that in my comment. do you have basic reading comprehension? i basicly admitted i'm clueless, cause i wouldn't have guessed MLB rhoid use, would have instead guessed NFL and/or NBA.
I clearly need to improve my typing speed, so that I no longer come in second. Hmm. If it works for professional athletes, I wonder...
"As a Red Sox director, Mitchell has a huge conflict of interest here that should be acknowledged." -- And he acknowledges it directly in the report. Eric Gagne is hit harder than almost anyone in the report. Former Sox players Mo Vaughn and Jeremy Giambi are named for purchases made while they played for Boston. Mike Stanton and other players who did stints in Boston are named. The following incident is also reported: "In June 2000, state police in Boston discovered steroids and hypodermic needles in the glove compartment of a vehicle belonging to a Boston Red Sox infielder" -- The player is later identified as Manny Alexander. I don't think the Sox got off easy in the report at all. There were 4 or 5 teams hit harder, but not many. But, as always, if you want to see a conspiracy there's nothing anyone can say to deter you from seeing one.
Steroids lead to limited mobility? NBA basketball requires explosive speed and strength from just about every player, and from big men in particular it requires lean muscle mass. I don't know why anyone is suggesting that steroids don't make sense for NBA players. And that's not even getting at the subject of HGH, which appears to be a wonderdrug that helps everyone.
actually i didn't accuse robinson of using roids, and never would (because i'm absolutely sure the admiral would not have done that). nor am i freaking out over pros bodies. just noting that NBA has escaped any suspicion despite players with romo-like bods and dispositions. (and there was no hint in the early jordan and pippen that they would become as insanely ripped as they did.) and i'm not whining about the NFL. i noted that i would have expected this in the NFL way before the MLB. see, i mentioned the NFL, so apparently i've notice the ridiculous physical specimens there as well. do you lack basic reading comprehension. finally, i conceded that i must be clueless about all this (because, as noted, i would have expected roids to blow up as an issue with respect to NFL and/or NBA before MLB). what part of this don't you get? i'll explain in greater detail whatever point you continue to find confusing. thanks for playing.
ah, the dread crashing browser double post. apologies to all (excluding friend eric).
Am I the only one who doesn't care about this? For all I care they can all juice up--hell if they want they can become cyborgs. Whatever.
I think the NBA requires more mobility than track and field. In those sports you generally run in a straight line and all your movements you have planned out well ahead of time. Plus, you don't do them as much so you don't have the problems with wear and tear. Steroids builds muscle mass, but what about drugs that strengthen joints or tendons? Perhaps these are some effects of drugs we don't hear about as much. What about testosterone that appears to help older men recover from injuries faster? These are drugs that I imagine would show up in the NBA. But the NBA does have a drug testing policy, as does the NFL. Sure, if they didn't have pretty demanding drug policies they'd have huge problems. As it is, I imagine there are lots of players who are using the cutting edge drugs and always trying to stay one step ahead of the policy. Whether you think this is an indication of a drug problem or not, well, I guess it depends on your perspective. I'm pretty much untroubled by the situation. I think the best policy is a drug policy strict enough to keep things under wraps enough that the public and media don't get wind of really big scandals. Its all just PR at the end of the day.
>Am I the only one who doesn't care about this? For all I care they can all juice up--hell if they want they can become cyborgs. Whatever. Think of the children! The children!
I googled around a little and found a quote from Chris Bosh where he said that steroids would help an NBA player but he doesn't say if he thinks players are using them or not. There's not a lot of information on this topic.
Lafollete Progressive: Erik Gagne doesn't count - He was only briefly on the Red Sox team, was universally disliked due to poor performance, and has since signed with another team. Neither Giambi or Vaughn are implicated from their time as Red Sox. If a David Ortiz or a Manny Ramiriz or a Jason Varitek - or even some random Sox middle reliever - had been mentioned, this whole report would be a lot more credible. As it is, the absence is pretty noteworthy.
"Comparing the NBA to the Bush administration is purely asinine." Posted by Eric | December 13, 2007 4:11 PM Really? They're both opaque, obstinate and (in all their pronouncements) never wrong. I'm not really familiar with the NBA's drug policy, but in almost every other aspect of their public relations, they're much more likely to obfuscate any problems than to try to fix them (if it means making them more public).
If a David Ortiz or a Manny Ramiriz or a Jason Varitek - or even some random Sox middle reliever - had been mentioned, this whole report would be a lot more credible. As it is, the absence is pretty noteworthy. So Mitchell should cite people he has no evidence on to satisfy the longings of disgruntled Yankees fans? Oh brother. Personally, I'd find the report more credible if ARoid had been mentioned.
Well, Spike, except that the Report says that Theo Epstein knew about Gagne's possible steroid use, and traded for him anyway. It might say that about Donnelley, too. I think the Sox brass takes a bit of a hit here.
The thing about Jordan and Pippen is that it took them years of fairly well documented training to build their muscle mass. I don't remember what they called it but a bunch of the Bulls of the 90's had a "club" that worked out before practices and in the off-season. Hell, Jordan's trainer became semi-famous. (Tim Grover now has his own training facility.) And as with baggy shorts, a bald head, and dunking, if Jordan did it, a lot of the NBA followed. So it's not surprising to see a lot of bulked up players. Also I would agree with the previous commenters who mentioned the possibility of problems with stimulants. Darrell Armstrong (guard who retired a few years back) was known to eat chocolate before games and during halftime, and didn't Caron Butler just admit to drinking an entire bottle of Mountain Dew at halftime of games. It's not a huge jump from that kind of stuff to other (illegal) stimulants.
The thing about Jordan and Pippen is that it took them years of fairly well documented training to build their muscle mass. I don't remember what they called it but a bunch of the Bulls of the 90's had a "club" that worked out before practices and in the off-season. I'm not sure what this is supposed to say about the possibility of steroid use. Steroids and training go hand-in-hand; one of the principle benefits that you hear about is quicker recuperation that allows for more intense training. More generally, training can just as easily take place with or without artificial accompaniment. The whole "they train harder and eat better" argument was originally offered as an alternative explanation (to steroids) to why today's (base)ballplayers had extended career success or late resurgences, but it is not wearing very well.
One thing I've heard from gym rats is that steroids help you recover from intesive workouts faster. This means that a basketball player can workout hard on monday and feel fine for a game tuesday night. Frequent, high-intesity, low-weight workouts are great for getting "cut". If NBA players use steriods it's probably for this reason not necessarily for bulking up.
Jamey makes the point that a lot of others are missing: its the recuperative powers of steroids, not so much as the mass-building properties, that would benefit endurance sports, especially in the (overly)-long NBA playoff format. Also, if PED's are rampant in basketball, Stern comes off looking much worse than Selig, considering the the paucity of influence the NBA player's association has compared to MLB.
I'm just glad the Orioles traded Tejada yesterday. Don't be so sure this is the last you'll hear of him, if the trade 'discussions' went anything like the Lo Duca agreement: According to the notes of an internal discussion among Los Angeles Dodgers officials in October 2003 that were referred to above, it was reportedly said of Lo Duca during the meetings: Great folks, there.
Steroids builds muscle mass, but what about drugs that strengthen joints or tendons? Perhaps these are some effects of drugs we don't hear about as much. What about testosterone that appears to help older men recover from injuries faster? You do realize that steroids (at least the ones being shot up by athletes) work by boosting testosterone levels, right?
"You do realize that steroids (at least the ones being shot up by athletes) work by boosting testosterone levels, right?" Posted by EpicureanQuaker | December 13, 2007 6:43 PM Steroids are a class of chemicals that include sex hormones (testoterone and estrogen), cholesterol, and anabolic steroids (chemicals that mimic testosterone). The steroids that are "shot up" usually mimic natural hormones rather than triggering their production. Human growth hormone (HGH) is also a popular performance-enhancing drug for atheletes and middle-aged men. It is a protein hormone and has a completely different chemical structure than a steroid.
The purpose of steroids is not to build muscle mass per se, although that is the desired secondary effect for some steroid users. The purpose of steroids is to speed the repair of muscle fibers damaged by strenuous exertion. Last I checked, 82 NBA games plus the playoffs is pretty damned strenuous. Steroids would be hugely beneficial to NBA players.
I agree that steroids could help an NBA player, especially a big man, but I'd be surprised if many of them are juicing. I mean, the culture of basketball is so different -- when they're teenagers, future NBA players are playing ball day and night, not hanging around Gold's Gym so shady dudes can sell them 'roids. Second, the NBA players you think of as really big (Mourning, Dwight Howard) aren't really bodybuilder-big or football-player big. Third, I'm not aware of anybody getting huge overnight the way Bonds did, and we haven't seen any age-defying wonders. Steve Nash is the closest thing, and I sure don't think he's juicing. The stimulants are another story. Anybody here ever try playing ball on uppers, even sudafed? It's definitely a performance enhancer. Look at all the guys who chug Red Bull. I don't know if it's a scandal, but it must happen. It's an interesting thing to ponder, because now I can judge whether or not I really care if my favorite athletes are on steriods. I don't give a shit if baseball players juice, but then, I'm not really a baseball fan. I'm an NBA fan. So, do I give a shit if NBA players are on The Drugs? No, I do not.
@ben: Uh, I said "boost testosterone levels," not production. Thnx tho. Also, HGH has been shown to be relatively useless as a performance-enhancing drug; rather, its usefulness is more towards preservation, and judging by clinical tests, its popularity has little correlation with effectiveness. Better for athletes to invest in a good anti-aromatase to short-circuit that pesky testosterone-estrogen conversion, and save themselves a suspension and an unsightly pair of bitch-tits (from steroids, that is -- we all know ben is a stickler!)
Look at all the guys who chug Red Bull. I don't know if it's a scandal, but it must happen. I recall an article where Kerry Kittles, while on the NJN, said Red Bull had become a team ritual prior to games. Although, considering the caffeine content, I'd bet there were a few Bill Walker moments that season...
@EpicureanQuaker: I guess I didn't read your first post clearly enough. You were pretty much right, but what's the point of having a comments sections if you can't fuss over minor details? Though Mountain Dew is no Red Bull, it seemed to get the job done for Caron Butler until recently.
a slug of mountain dew at halftime -- the gateway drink to more pernicious activities. Let's start up a War on Mountain Dew -- we'll call it WMD, no wait..
Wow, the commenters sure are short sighted. Do people really believe that NBA players aren't on steroids because they are skinny? If the Mitchell report tells us anything, it is that dumpy MLB relievers can use steroids for years without ever "bulking up." Steroids do a lot more than just add muscle mass. They make small muscles perform better and heal faster. And if you take steroids without attempting to "bulk up" it is 100% possible to have an extremely skinny build with exceptional strength. They help in practically ANY athletic endeavor. For example: take Antoine Walker. He still has some decent skills and a bit of size, but his raw athletic ability is terrible. He can't jump. Now put Antoine on steroids. He's not going to show up to camp looking like a body builder. But he'd have an extra 4 inches on his vertical. His broken down body would heal faster. He'd have a tiny bit of explosiveness, which, combined with his skills, would allow him to shoot over NBA big men for the first time in years. One year on 'roids could mean a guaranteed two-year deal to finish his career. Seems worth it to me. Here is the botton line: professional basketball is highly dependent on speed, jumping ability, and explosiveness. The NBA does not comprehensively test for steroids. Millions of dollars are at stake. Therefore, STEROIDS ARE BEING USED. If the NBA is smart, they will start widespread testing before steroids become an underground fad among players.
Wow, the commenters sure are short sighted. Do people really believe that NBA players aren't on steroids because they are skinny? If the Mitchell report tells us anything, it is that dumpy MLB relievers can use steroids for years without ever "bulking up." Very true, and it reminds me of what people used to say about Palmeiro -- "he couldn't be using steroids... just look at him." (This was back in the heady days when people were trying to explain away remarkable late-blooming, and Palmeiro was offered as proof that it could be done cleanly.)
I mean, the culture of basketball is so different -- when they're teenagers, future NBA players are playing ball day and night, not hanging around Gold's Gym so shady dudes can sell them 'roids. Second, the NBA players you think of as really big (Mourning, Dwight Howard) aren't really bodybuilder-big or football-player big. Third, I'm not aware of anybody getting huge overnight the way Bonds did, and we haven't seen any age-defying wonders. Steve Nash is the closest thing, and I sure don't think he's juicing. (1.) You are right about teenage players, but as soon as they hit the NBA, teams force players to work on their bodies. Steroids are a great short cut. (2.) Again, steroids do a LOT more than "make you big" or "bulk you up." Olympic athletes of all shapes and sizes use steroids. You only "get big" if you deliberately try to bulk up your upper body. A smart NBA player would work on jumping ability, lateral quickness, and explosiveness. Steroids would help a TON without necessarily adding excess bulk, especially if the player made an effort to keep his weight down. Steroids help with ANY explosive movement. (3.) Don't think about players "bulking up." Think about players "transforming their body." Think Kendrick Perkins going from a doughy 300 lbs to an absolutely ripped 265 lbs in two years. Combined with diet, you can use steroids to lose fat and replace it with muscle. I'm saying Perkins used 'roids. I'm saying 'roids would be extremely helpful for such an endeavor.
The culture of basketball, like all major sports cultures, has the pursuit of extreme wealth at it's center, and it starts in high school, or even earlier. It is unbelievably naive to think that steroids aren't being used on a widespread basis in basketball, given the steroids will greatly aid the pursuit of extreme wealth.
CORRECTION: I'm not saying Perkins used 'roids.
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Heads in the Sand
Yes, I'd wager that the NBA have problems with performance enhancing drug use. In fact, any league with multiple playoff rounds likely does. Anyone who's played hockey knows how hard it is to recover from one game a week, let alone seven played at maximum intensity over ten nights. Times four, if a team advances to the finals.
After reading David Walsh's reporting on the Tour de France scandals of the past twenty years, it's hard to believe that ANY sporting accomplishment isn't tainted.
Posted by Jamey | December 13, 2007 2:20 PM