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It's the Strategy

10 Dec 2007 01:03 pm

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When you read something like this your stomach just turns:

Jamie Leigh Jones, now 22, says that after she was raped by multiple men at a KBR camp in the Green Zone, the company put her under guard in a shipping container with a bed and warned her that if she left Iraq for medical treatment, she'd be out of a job.

And, of course, while people who favor an open-ended American military commitment in Iraq probably don't specifically believe that instances of rape and kidnapping ought to be papered over in silence, I think we can all predict that this is a story that will be widely covered on anti-war websites, and basically ignored on pro-war ones. Meanwhile, Megan McArdle says doves need to acknowledge the improving nature of the situation in Iraq where it does indeed seem that those who managed not to die in 2007 or 2006 can look forward to enjoying 2005 levels of violence in 2008 (but in segregated neighborhoods) after they're forcibly repatriated from their refugee camps.

Which is perhaps as good a time as any to restate the basic point that while anecdotes hither and there can make people feel good or bad about the war, the basic strategic questions are fairly indifferent to the ebbing and flowing of news. Back in 2003 and 2004 I thought, as I think most people thought, that keeping US forces in Iraq until a new government could be organized was a reasonable thing to do despite the costs. It seemed to me that the elections in early 2005 were a good time to announce a mutually agreed-upon schedule for the withdrawal of American troops. It didn't happen. Many argued throughout 2005 that the chances of preventing the sort of ethnic cleansing and civil violence that we saw in 2006 was a good reason to keep troops there. I disagreed, but the troops stayed and the violence came. Then many argued that the chances of preventing the sort of worsening of the violence that we saw in 2007 was a good reason to keep troops there. I disagreed, but the troops stayed and the violence worsened.

Now the violence seems to be ebbing, which is good. The US also, sensibly, seems to have started taking the more conciliatory line toward anti-government Sunni Arab rebel groups that doves had generally been advocating as far back as 2004, which is also good. But the question of what it is our military presence in Iraq is for and why it's worth the considerable direct financial costs, opportunity costs, and the so-called "human costs" (rape victims held under guard in shipping containers, that sort of thing) is, if anything, more acute than ever. How many casualties is the right price to pay for permanent basing rights in Iraq? How much money should we spend for war advocates to be able to maintain that they weren't wrong, that Bush just used bad tactics for a while, and that it all turned out for the best in the end? How much damage should be done to our posture in Central Asia for the sake of giving counterinsurgency theorists a chance to show their stuff in a theater where they government is prepared to provide a lot of resources?

Meanwhile, in Iraq violence is down unless you're one of the nine people killed today and as long as the political situation remains unsettled things could always get worse again (except this time with better trained and better equipped forces on all sides) but maybe they won't and either way the question about American strategy remains.

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Comments (46)

Well, as stated by one of Atrios' commenters, "Hey, you can't make an omelet without raping a few eggs and locking them in shipping containers for 24 hours." (H/T 'underwhelm'.)

Ugh!!! Is this your one time a week pimping for other Atlantic bloggers thing? Can't you quote someone better than McMegan?

Matt: I agree. But I thought I should make a point about your use of "hither and there." If you are going to use "hither" you should use the complement "thither."

Well, given the worthless behavior of the DC Democrats and the approaching fiscal tsunami, I suspect that our Iraqi Occupation will continue until we can't afford to pay for it any longer...which may be sooner than expected.

There's a long history of unpaid military expeditionary forces returning home to seize power and collect their back-wages from corrupt, decayed civilian governments, so I'd say there's some slight chance we'll eventually witness the coronation of William I, of the Fallon Dynasty, in our Imperial Capital.

Can't you quote someone better than McMegan?

Or possibly somebody with a point?

Matt: I agree. But I thought I should make a point about your use of "hither and there." If you are going to use "hither" you should use the complement "thither."

I prefer "hither and yon."

Just a grammatical digression. On second thought your use of hither seems wrong. I do encourage its usage though. As a German major who likes hither, thither, and whence (because they correspond to hin, her, and woher), I support their usage. But all three imply movement, which makes your example seem wrong. Hither is like "over here" and thither like "over there" on the far side of something, and, of course, whence is like "from where"--ergo "whence I came" not "from whence I came." Sorry to hijack the thread, but I had to get this off my chest.

Yeah, I'll start admitting that violence is slightly down on paper as soon as McArdle gets around to admitting that the Iraq Invasion was incredibly fucking stupid (and obviously so beforehand, without hindsight) and Junior Bush is a fucking horrible president, that either Gore or Kerry would have been hugeass trades up. But I guess she'll never ever ever admit that shit since, you know, she doesn't like the potty mouth.

Excellent point Bill. But "yon" only makes sense in the sense of "this or that" (yon corresponding to that). Matt seemed to be saying "here or there" ergo hither and thither.

Meanwhile, Megan McArdle says doves need to acknowledge the improving nature of the situation in Iraq

Relatedly, McArdle needs to develop a sense of shame, and her need is more pressing. I tend to think she gets beaten up far too much, and often on patently unfair terms, but jeebus.

Bill. MMMmm, I guess in the US and dialect hither and yon functions that way. Here is the 5th defintion of "hither" in the OED:

5. Phr. hither and thither. To this place and that, in this direction and in that (alternately); to and fro; in various directions. [In OE.; also with gen. endings hidres idres.] So hither and yon (yond). dial. and U.S.

c725 Corpus Gl. 2148 Ultroque citroque, hider ond ider [MS. hider]. c888 K. ÆLFRED Boeth. xl. §5 Ac ic ondræde æt ic e læde hidres idres on a paas of inum wee. c897 Gregory's Past. ix. 59 æt scip..Drifen hider and ider. c900 tr. Bæda's Hist. V. xiii. [xii.] (1890) 428 a ahof ic mine eaan upp & locade hider & eond. a1300 Cursor M. 16001 ai iesus ledd..Bath hider & ider. 1413 Pilgr. Sowle (Caxton) V. i. (1859) 69, I sawe hym..fle hyder and thyder. 1621 G. SANDYS Ovid's Met. xv. (1626) 308 Hether and thether still the Spirit strayes. 1787 GROSE Prov. Gloss., Hither and yon, here and there, backwards and forwards. North. 1821 GALT Sir A. Wylie II. 20 (Jam.) Noo that they're hither and yont frae ane anither. 1871 R. H. HUTTON Ess. (1877) I. 34 A Power..that moves us hither and thither through the ordinary Courses of our lives.

I was pretty much where Matt was after the fall of Baghdad--turn over to an Iraqi provisional government and re-deploy "over the horizon" to support it. I wish we'd done so. Although we'll never know, it seems pretty reasonable to assume we'd all have been better off. But we didn't, and we're not, so we have to continue to try to improve our performance. Simply declaring our own defeat and running away is not a responsible option.

We got into Iraq in the first place because we, and the larger world, have vital interests in a reasonable level of stability there. These interests have only grown more vital with the passage of time. Projecting current casualty figures forward has us well within the range of those for normal deployments and training operations--over 7500 US service personnel died on duty during the Clinton years according to the DoD. I don't think any likely president of either party is going to just pull up stakes after all we've been through in Iraq. Iraq is part of our history now, and we are part of theirs. If we've felt the need to garrison South Korea for over half a century with no oil and no terrorism involved, it doesn't seem reasonable to expect much less in Iraq.

I wish BushCo & McMegan could know how it fucking feels to live the realities that everyday Iraqis deal with, you know like things like rape and starvation. If the Administration and their selfish libertarian enablers can justify torture from their DC ivory towers, maybe McMegan needs to experience a little of BOTH of the aforementioned realities before she continues pontificating about the "human costs" . The problem with politics in this country is that Democrats refuse to pull the same punches that the Republicrats so routinely pull off.

Unfair terms? When she decides to give a shit about people who aren't born rich or in control of the multi-national corporations we can start talking about the "unfair" terms of the 40 million people who lack health insurance in this country.

"I wish BushCo & McMegan could know how it fucking feels to live the realities that everyday Iraqis deal with, you know like things like rape and starvation...maybe McMegan needs to experience a little of BOTH of the aforementioned realities..."

Umm, that is way out of line. I agree that Megan and libertarians generally should have more compassion for the poor, victims of war, etc., but seriously, Megan does not need to be raped. Jesus. Misogyny much?

When discussing deaths in Iraq, it's probably best to say '9 american soldiers' killed. Of course they're a subset of 'people', but '9 people killed in Iraq is not even close to the real number (whatever that is) and uses pentagon-style accounting ("we don't count civilians deaths") which should be avoided.

Cheers.

What d said about Billare's comment.

What a smashing success, with violence decreasing from horrific levels to merely terrible levels.

Are people like McCardle who are all hopped up about this glorious victory trying to deceive us, and counting on no one remembering what happened 2 and 4 years ago? Or are they just stupid/jingoistic enough to buy into the hype?

"We got into Iraq in the first place because we, and the larger world, have vital interests in a reasonable level of stability there. These interests have only grown more vital with the passage of time. Projecting current casualty figures forward has us well within the range of those for normal deployments and training operations--over 7500 US service personnel died on duty during the Clinton years according to the DoD. I don't think any likely president of either party is going to just pull up stakes after all we've been through in Iraq. Iraq is part of our history now, and we are part of theirs. If we've felt the need to garrison South Korea for over half a century with no oil and no terrorism involved, it doesn't seem reasonable to expect much less in Iraq."

And so the empire goes on. We invade other people's countries and kill hundreds of thousands of people for "stability," sparking a destabilizing civil war that in turn requires our indefinite presence in the name of "stability." We claim a right to insert ourselves in their history, and generously cede them a minor place in our own glorious pageant, without any say-so on their part. And our legions will "garrison" Iraq for 50+ years because the empire must be served and perpetuated. And we will torture, maim, wiretap, and gulag, because the empire demands it. I thank the writer of this post for clarifying our role as powerless celebrators of our destiny as imperialists. Kudos.

I would put this along side the epic Bob Wright rant on bloggingheads when Mickey Kaus started to argue that since violence was down some people could start to argue the war was a success. Good one, Matt.

Hey, they're always talking about making people "exposed to their choices". This is EXACTLY her philosophy come to roost.

over 7500 US service personnel died on duty during the Clinton years according to the DoD

Sure, Bush started an unnecesary, strategically foolish war, but think of all the people who died in car crashes under Clinton! And don't forget that our military ran over more than a million civilians during the Clinton years as well . . . didn't they?

We got into Iraq in the first place because we, and the larger world, have vital interests in a reasonable level of stability there. These interests have only grown more vital with the passage of time.

Umm, isn't it true that they've gotten more vital with the passage of time because we're sitting there making everything worse?

I don't think any likely president of either party is going to just pull up stakes after all we've been through in Iraq. Iraq is part of our history now, and we are part of theirs.

Perhaps you need to look into the concept of "sunk costs" and realize that your argument doesn't make any sense at all.

if there is one thing i'm sick to death of from the war enablers, it's the notion that i "need" to acknowledge something, anything has gotten "better" in iraq. what a stupid mindset: some of us started saying 5+ years ago that invading iraq was a waste of resources with only minute potential benefits for the US and so it flunked the basic cost-benefit analysis and was, therefore, a strategic error of the highest order.

at no point have i insisted that war enablers "need" to acknowledge that this basic insight was - and remains - correct.

and speaking of "stupid," anyone who, like robert powell, wants to bring up the number of servicepeople who died in non-combat operations while Clinton was in office takes home a medal for stupidity and doesn't deserve a further response. sheesh.

"We got into Iraq in the first place because we, and the larger world, have vital interests in a reasonable level of stability there. These interests have only grown more vital with the passage of time. Projecting current casualty figures forward has us well within the range of those for normal deployments and training operations--over 7500 US service personnel died on duty during the Clinton years according to the DoD."

Some people are too creepy and stupid to believe they can lace their own shoes.

Robert Powell, is it possible to be more stupid and creepy? I don't think so.

Sure, Jennifer, it's not only possible, it seems easy--see above.

The one thing partisan fanatics seemingly need to avoid at all cost is exposure to objective data. Ranting and raving about empires, how we attacked poor Saddam for no reason, that there weren't millions of Iraqis in favor of it, that they were better off under UN sanctions, etc, etc is exactly the kind of irresponsible rhetoric that got Bush re-elected even when absolutely EVERYONE knew there were now wmd's, Saddam didn't attack the WTC, and the Administration had made enormous mistakes in occupation.

Give voters a choice between a bumbler who they trust to do the best he can, and a bunch who are fact-free and incoherent at best, and rooting for the enemy at worst, and this is what you get. Stupid and creepy? You bet.

An American women gets gang-raped by her fellow American's who I'm sure were on the clock(ie getting paid by American taxpayers) and the only comments here are "how will that effect the American media coverage of the Iraq war?" and an English lesson. I wonder what is causeing the breakdown in American values...... could it be you people? I think so. For those that think the Iraq war was a super idea - I hope you will be blessed with all female children and that they all get drafted.

The Jacobins knew how to deal with people like Robert Powell.

Robert Powell is a Jacobin. As are our current leaders.

Uh, Mr. Powell. During our half-century "garrisoning" of South Korea, the South Koreans haven't been energetically trying to slaughter us and each other (which is how S.K. also differs from that OTHER Asian country that turned out so badly for us). As for our "crucial national interests" in Iraq: you keep on going on about those, but I have yet to see you describe what they actually are -- especially since:

(1) Our only real alternatives are to (A) increase the size of our occupying troop force to 300,000 or so (which not even the Bushites have dared propose), or (B) simply replace Saddam's Sunni dictatorship with a Shiite dictatorship.

(2) Our military's entanglement in Iraq is actually -- and seriously -- interfering with our ability to deal with any crisis produced by the possession of the Bomb by Pakistan and North Korea, and with our ability to pressure Iran not to develop it as well. And if any such crisis involving a possibility of nuclear terrorism -- which really WILL be an Apocalypse -- does appear, it will probably require American military action on very short notice.

hither and yonder?

why am i wasting my time with robert powell? (because i don't want to do my real job right now).

let's see if there's anything accurate in his 2:57.

fanatics want to avoid objective data? well, that's sometimes true, but completely irrelevant in this case, in that the "objective data" is that we've spent already hundreds of billions of dollars for no discernible strategic benefit, which is why so many americans now oppose the war.

irresponsible rhetoric about iraq got bush re-elected? don't be nonsensical - there's any number of explanations for how bush got re-elected, but none of them have anything to do with how "irresponsible rhetoric" (from where, one wonders? you mean, john kerry was talking about how iraq was better off under sanctions?) convinced 80,000 ohioans to vote the wrong way.

everyone doesn't even know today that iraq had now WMDS (got ask rep. hoekstra) or that saddam didn't attack the WTC (go read some poll data - you know, objective facts?) and as for the idea that it was commonly agreed in 2004 that we had screwed up the occupation - surely you jest. there was no such consensus in 2004.

then, let's see, was the choice in 2004 between bush and a fact-free, incoherent, enemy-rooter: well, i acknowledge that you've set the bar very low, but even by your standards, that's an appallingly stupid characterization of the 2004 election.

(i'd also like to know who the "enemy" in iraq is? can you please characterize this "enemy" for us? i'd like to know whom i'm rooting for in your demented fantasy)

so, the scorecard (unsurprisingly) is that ranting idiot who accuses others of being fact-free doesn't know what he's talking about.

give it up.

PS. plus what bruce moomaw said, of course....

I have, Bruce, but I guess you were on to a different thread at tnr when it came up. Here goes:

1) We don't get most of our oil from the Persian Gulf, but trading partners like Japan and Europe get about 80% of theirs from it. Major instability of the sort caused by Iraqi aggression can cause, as it caused in the past, world-wide recessions of major proportions.

2) We've got a long-standing vital interest in mutual defense. When our allies are attacked, as they repeatedly were by Iraq, we should respond. The fact that it's taken us going on twenty years to sort out the aftermath is another matter.

3) We've got a vital national interest in an international order that can act against wars of aggression, genocide, and the proliferation and use of wmd's. The UN process on Iraq was all about that, and it was not those who felt compelled to enforce the Resolutions that were undermining the UN. We are currently in Iraq at the request of its freely elected government covered by a unanimously approved UN mandate. I think one of our goals in Iraq should be to leave the UN in better shape than it was in when we invaded.

4) We've got a vital national interest in not handing Islamic extremists the Mother of All Propaganda Victories, and in not abandoning the people in Iraq who have stuck their necks out to work with us. Moreover, we have a pressing need to stay engaged with Iran, with whom the Iraqi government will likely be our best possible mediator.

A reasonably stable, reasonably pro-Western Iraq at peace with its neighbors, not developing wmd's, and pumping oil would be a significant victory, and it's not an unreasonable expectation. Why opt for defeat?

On Korea, I think you're missing something. We have lost about a thousand fatal casualties per year in Iraq. We lost nearly 50,000 dead GI's in Korea (counting surely-dead MIA's) in less time than we've been in Iraq, and left the enemy still standing, in control of a state. "Iraqis" are not energetically trying to kill our troops by any historical standard, and in fact most of them now appear to think we should leave at some point, but "not now".

The enemy in Iraq has no coherent plan for governance and no practical hope of getting one. The "surge" is working not because we have so many more troops than before, but because they're finally doing the right sorts of things. I don't think there's any reason to expect that we're going to need any more troops in Iraq long-term than we've had in Korea if they're properly tasked.

Finally, if you're suggesting that if we weren't "bogged down" in Iraq we'd be able to strike Pakistan, North Korea, or Iran, I'd say that's another great reason for us to be in Iraq. Attacking any of those three countries would be a disaster that would make Iraq look like Grenada.

well, it's been amusing watching robert powell at work here, but still, the time has come to turn to other things.

so, let us see what he's got to offer this time:

iraq, with our (at a minimum) acquiesence, attacked iran 17 years ago, causing a disruption in the oil market, and that's a good argument for remaining tied down in iraq today.

iraq seems, in a parallel universe, to have attacked american allies to whom we are bound by mutual defense treaties. in this universe, that's nonsense and still has nothing to do with why should we remained tied down in iraq today.

there's some nonsensical set of words about the UN that are totally meaningless and certainly don't amount to a justification for staying tied down in iraq today.

and leaving iraq hands a victory to Islamic extremists, whoever they may be (one continues to long to know who this "enemy" is in iraq).

a reasonably stable iraq already existed prior to our invasion: who knows how long that will take to return (if it ever does: it could be the country will break up, instead), but that's minor: the notion that there is a not unreasonable expectation of a pro-western iraq that will directly result from our endless exertions there requires a definition of the word "reasonable" that will not be found in any dictionary.

it's pointless to even touch on south korea with robert powell, but one can't leave this discussion without noting that the "surge" is not working.

18 metrics were established for the surge; in a generous scorecard, you could say that 3 have been met.

and since the overarching goal was to open up space for a political reconciliation of which there is no evidence whatsoever, it takes a truly remarkable mind to claim that the surge is "working."

we have met such a mind in robert powell....

Robert, you are just plain making it all up. Your ideas are nuts.

Is that Chris Ford again?

"Jamie Leigh Jones, now 22, says that after she was raped by multiple men at a KBR camp in the Green Zone..."

If this is true, this is awful. However, after the NY Times earlier this year credulously published Amorita Randall's false claims that she was raped in Iraq, I am skeptical of such claims.

In any case, as awful as this story is, if true, it has no material bearing on the question of whether conditions in Iraq are improving or not.

I see Matt's still getting his news from the NYT, which says in the linked article: "suicide and other bombers killing at least 50 people countrywide in the past week."

Oh, really?

Let's look at the past week, according to the news media tracked by Antiwar.com.

December 3rd: 46 Iraqis killed, 11 wounded. (That has to be wrong, there's always more wounded than killed.)

December 4th: 11 Iraqis killed, 35 wounded.

December 5th: 26 Iraqis Killed; 45 Iraqis Wounded.

December 6th: 17 Iraqis killed, 24 wounded.

December 7th: 35 Iraqis killed, 44 wounded.

December 8th: 31 Iraqis killed, 45 wounded.

December 9th: 32 Iraqis killed, 12 wounded.

Today: 14 Iraqis killed, 52 wounded.

By my count, that totals considerably more than 50. In fact, it's more like four times that amount, about 212.

The average is about 26 a day, which is still better than it's been recently. Based on that, the monthly total should be in the neighborhood of 780, which is much better than last month which was over 1,100.

So, yes, the violence is going down. The reasons are clearly the buy off of a certain number of Sunni insurgents, the stand down by al-Sadr, and the completed ethnic cleansing of neighborhoods - most likely the latter being the greatest effect.

But the US MSM is simply under-reporting or reporting the known to be fudged figures from the Iraqi government, who claimed only four hundred some odd deaths in November when the real figure was three times that.

Jennifer finally gets it right. Powell IS making it all up. That's his M.O.: just make assertions with absolutely nothing behind them, add in some incredible historical revisionism, and then refer to anyone who could possibly disagree as a foaming at the mouth, ignorant lover of America's enemies.

In other words, Powell is a serious fucking fruitcake just shy of Chris Ford.

Meanwhile, Fred takes all rape stories with a grain of salt. That should endear him to the female half of the species.

Hack is a fuck-up convicted of a felony who served time for it. A dumbass blogging away because no one wants to hire his lying ass. I suppose he thinks his comments and conspiracy theories are about the best use of his copious "free time" he can salvage. How pathetic!
=======================

I am skeptical of this Jamie Leigh character. In Iraq on July 25th after an Abu Dubai hotel complaint a few days before about "a man" in her hotel room. She was "asssigned to live in an all-mans' barracks", she said, subjected to "constant catcalls" on her first day. Next day, July 26th, she was drinking 'till she passed out with 4 firefighters ...saying she was raped while she was passed out from "the drugs" in the drinks. Suing because she claims the purported assault damaged the breast implants she got as an 18th birthday present. Another sample from her blog:

In regards to the missing pictures and doctor's notes that were taken in Baghdad Lynn Falanga and I both called the doctor that performed the rape kit. The doctor stated to both of us that “I have no idea which rape victum you are because so many young contractor girls were raped after drinking with the guys” she also stated that “I performed so many rape kits in the six months that I was stationed there that there would be no way to recall whom yours was."

Brown & Root is taking her lawsuit to arbitration. They do note that all female arrivals are given orientation and placed in female barracks and Jones appeared to have been partying in a men's barracks she wasn't assigned to that night. Jones claims she was assigned to men's barracks unlike all the other females in the Green Zone...

After all the false rape claims of recent years like Crystal Gail Mangum's in the Lacrosse case and studies showing that up to 40% of rape complaints are false, her case should be investigated, but healthy skepticism seems in order.

=======================
Powell is right about the stats on "the unbearable losses" in Iraq. 7500 killed on duty under Clinton, but more tellingly, the military had more total deaths each year in the Carter years than under Dubya, and the howling Lefties were silent then, too.
As Powell says, quite accurately: Give voters a choice between a bumbler who they trust to do the best he can, and a bunch who are fact-free and incoherent at best, and rooting for the enemy at worst, and this is what you get.

People miss that a good deal of the public want us out of Iraq from Bush's 3 years of bungling and horrendous decision-making and belief until recently that they didn't think things were getting better - not because they were quivering in grief about noble, innocent Iraqis killing other noble, innocent Iraqis. Or because they bought into the insipid Lefty belief that the more Al Qaeda in Iraq we or the Sunnis kill, the more we create.
People also miss that Bush's low approval numbers are also coming from conservatives that hate his guts, not just rooters for the enemy and those craving a US defeat in Iraq..

It's truly sad that some people are so committed to their political views as a fashion statement or a lifestyle choice that they are prepared to make a public display of their ignorance, and attack people citing facts.

Jennifer, Hack, and Howard don't cite a single factual error of mine--not one. Anyone who doesn't buy the left wingnut line is just, well, somehow we can't exactly say, wrong! Pathetic.

American allies attacked by Iraq included Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, and Israel. Most of the others in the region were extremely concerned about possible future attacks by the Ba'athist regime, as was most of the rest of the world. We got into a war in the Persian Gulf with full legal bells and whistles, as a function of defending UN Resolutions. We still haven't wrapped it up, but we will. Those who can't be bothered to familiarize themselves with the history and current events on this topic would be well advised to stop posting on it until they get some education.

Powell, get serious. Better yet, get lost. Nobody gives a shit about your crap here.

Cite a single factual error of yours? We've cited them over and over again for weeks now - and every single day you come right back with the same bullshit, not a line changed.

"American allies attacked by Iraq included Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, and Israel."

First of all, Kuwait is not an "American ally" - and not five Americans either know where it was or gave a shit when Saddam invaded them. Not to mention that the entire world didn't and doesn't give a damn who runs Kuwait - some bozo sheiks or Saddam. Not to mention that Saddam had good reason to do so - they were slant-drilling his oil fields. Not to mention that the US gave him the green light to do so via April Glaspie, then turned on him when he was stupid enough to believe us.

Saudi Arabia was not attacked until it harbored US troops intending to invade Iraq. Israel was not attacked until the US attacked Iraq. In other words, the US started the war in 1990 by giving Saddam the green light to invade Kuwait - just as the US supported Saddam in starting the Iraq-Iran War.

Your bullshit implies that Saddam was just invading everyone around him and launching missiles at random. Complete horseshit.

The rest of the world was concerned about Saddam. Really? China? India? Panama? Tonga? Nauru?

"We got into a war in the Persian Gulf with full legal bells and whistles, as a function of defending UN Resolutions."

Maybe you can claim the 1991 war as supported by UN Resolution - but every single group in international legal experts on the planet has declared the 2003 invasion of Iraq ILLEGAL.

Read my lips, Powell! ILLEGAL! Chapter and verse!

Fucking morons like you who "can't be bothered to familiarize themselves with the history and current events on this topic would be well advised to stop posting on it until they get some education."

Or a brain transplant.

Kuwait isn't a US ally?

"Every single group in international legal experts on the planet (sic) has declared the 2003 invasion of Iraq illegal"--you mean except the officials charged with making and enforcing law in over a score of democracies. Maybe you think the people who wrote the UN Charter don't know what it means; or that a few characters like Koffi Annan and Jacques Chirac have more legal authority than Congress and Parliament?


What a laugh. Again, not a single factual refutation, just bombast, outright falsehoods, gossip, and rumor.

If you want to learn something, read the relevant source documents and basic history. If not, keep demonstrating how the web can be a harmless diversion for shut-ins, prisoners, and other unfortunate social isolates. It's easy to skip your posts--they're the really long, boring ones full of insults as a cover for ignorance. And feel free not to read mine. Just please, don't ever agree with me. Then I'd worry.

We've got a long-standing vital interest in mutual defense. When our allies are attacked, as they repeatedly were by Iraq, we should respond. The fact that it's taken us going on twenty years to sort out the aftermath is another matter.

Honestly, R. Powell -- please give me a link to the glowing missives written by Kuwaitis effusively thanking us for this war. That's not even snark, I honestly really need to know if I've been living in the null-objectivity field of which you speak.

EQ--please note Kuwait's enthusiastic support of action against Iraq, including extensive basing rights extended to the US military over the last decade plus. Without the cooperation of Kuwait, which has in addition paid a substantial amount of the cost of monitoring Iraq '91-03, there would have been no invasion. There are thousands of sources on this--you don't need a link from me. Check it out in any way that seems credible to you.

FWIW, every Security Council session on this subject through the '90's, including all the Sanctions votes, was opened by the Chair "...on the matter of Iraq and Kuwait." Qatar and the other Emirates, among others, have also been major allies.

what does this have to do with Iraq, other than it was the location of the alleged crime?


Comments closed December 24, 2007.

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