« The Reminder | Main | Two Ways of Looking at Fuel Efficiency »

Krugman Versus Obama, Cont.

24 Dec 2007 12:22 pm

Ezra Klein, who's much more sympathetic to the anti-Obama cause than I am, says much of what needs to be said about Paul Krugman's overreaching effort to paint Barack Obama as an anti-union candidate. But a few additional observations:

One: This kind of thing is why I'll be glad when this primary race is over. The nominating contest creates large incentives to overstate one's case. In retrospect, I think I've been guilty of this with regard to Hillary Clinton. I prefer other candidates on foreign policy grounds. That's not to say, however, that she'll be the second coming of George W. Bush which I think I've wrongly implied in the past due to over-investment in some internecine disputes. Similarly, it's one thing to say that you prefer Edward's and Clinton's views on health care and Social Security but that's a far cry from Obama deserving the label of an "anti-change" candidate.

Two: John Edwards is clearly the most pro-labor candidate in this race. If I were a single-issue voter, this election wouldn't be a close call. And it's really too bad that more unions didn't line up behind Edwards. Instead, many shied away from him on the theory that he was doomed to lose and that Clinton was inevitable. That, of course, has something of a self-fulfilling prophesy dynamic to it and created problems for Edwards in terms of fundraising and national press. Now, as a non-supporter of Clinton with strong Edwards sympathies, I'm worried that an Edwards win in Iowa just leads to a Clinton victory; whereas an Obama win in Iowa leads to an Obama victory. Had the unions all just lined up behind the most pro-labor candidate in the field, I don't think we would have that problem.

Three: I don't see any need for liberal pundits to get in the business of denying that labor unions are, in fact, "special interests." Indeed, it's impossible to understand the dynamics of American politics without acknowledging them to be special interests. They're special interests who sometimes take the "wrong" side of policy debates when what's "right" for the country is "wrong" for the sector in which they work. The CWA often takes bad positions on telecommunications issues because it wants to advance the interests of unionized telecom firm vis-a-vis the interests of non-union firms. Similarly, various unions have in the past clashed with environmental groups and will certainly do so again in the context of a serious push to curb carbon emissions. There's nothing wrong with that, and liberals should strongly resist the line of inference from "unions are sometimes wrong on public policy questions, therefore we should embrace policies designed to hasten the decline of union membership." But still, unions are groups that seek to advance the interests of their members. As such, they're a vital check on what would otherwise be corporate influence run amok. But sometimes the interests of a given union's members run against the general interests of the country and there's no sense in denying this.

To return to point one, though, the whole Krugman-Obama feud started over the issue of health insurance mandates. If you think that electing a president who favors an Edwards/Clinton-style individual mandate is likely to lead to a better substantive policy outcome than is electing an opponent of such a mandate, then this constitutes a perfectly good reason all on its own to vote for Edwards or Clinton rather than Obama. It's an important issue! There's not really any need to drag additional implausible charges into the mix.

UPDATE: "On health care, Obama is consistently running to the right of his rivals" is a much more accurate characterization of the complaint. I don't think the legislative prospects for a really awesome health care plan in 2009 are very good no matter who wins the election, so I don't find this reality incredibly distressing. But it's an accurate complaint.

Photo courtesy of John Edwards 2008 used under a Creative Commons license

Share This

Comments (156)

Good post, Matt. Krugman's conclusion was just painful to read. Whatever one thinks about unions, they ARE special interests and to act like they are not is to deny the obvious.

Good points.
I think it's clear by now that this was never so much a Krugman-Obama feud as it was an attempt by Krugman to advocate for his favorite candidate, John Edwards, and bring down his rival in the progressive community, Barack Obama. There's nothing unethical about it I suppose, but it still leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

The problem is that Krugman glosses over some of the not so clear cut back story to these issues.

1. Edwards firmly supported NC's right to work laws when he was in the US Senate. He was also pretty much a free trader while in the Senate too. John Edwards may now be the most pro union candidate, but it does not seem to have always been the case.

2. The SEIU has been stated its opposition to healthcare mandates. They may be opposing Obama, but his healthcare platform is closer to what they advocate in the Union's policy wish list than Clinton or Edwards.

3. Unions are special interests no matter how you cut it. How can you talk against only a certain type of lobbyist or special interest?

If Krugman wants to attack Obama that is one thing. However, he should not pick out the arguments that support his case and ignore those inconvenient truths.

Matt,

Here's my read of the mandate issue. The lack of a mandate won't mean that sick people won't have health insurance. It means they won't get health insurance until they are sick, which would drive up the price for those people who "responsibly" obtain health insurance when they can.

But how much would the cost go up? If I have to anticipate paying an extra $10/month for Obama's plan than the others, but I believe his plan has a much greater chance at becoming law, I really don't see a problem in supporting the "lack of mandate." If it's an extra $1000 per month, then his plan isn't really feasible, and therefore, it's worse than no plan at all.

It's also interesting to note that Krugman -- responding to the analogy that 15% of drivers don't have mandatory auto insurance -- points out that some states have gotten the percentage of non-compliant down to two percent. But the "uninsured" in Obama's plan would be 2-3 percent. And those who are uninsured would still get medical care when they get sick. Is this really worth getting upset over?

I personally do not want mandates. I think they are just too defeating an issue to force people who may not want the coverage.
That said, I think Krugman has lost his mind.
It is one thing to advocate for a candidate you support but, to lose your perspective and use your column just to trash someone rather than write about things that are important is silly.
Krugman is using his column as a one man assualt on Obama. he doesn't like the guy, fine. we get it.
He is supporting Edwards, fine, we get it. But, Krugman is just making himself look like he is off the rail and puts his credibility on the line.

Re labor unions as special interests: our political vocabulary needs a way of distinguishing in people's minds between 'special interests' that are influential due to a combination of popular support, organization, and passion for their cause (labor, gun nuts, fundies), and 'special interests' that are influential far beyond their level of popular support because they have a lot of money, and use it to magnify their influence (big oil, big pharma, etc).

Lumping both kinds of 'special interests' together is fundamentally misleading, IMHO.

Until someone comes up with a better solution, my best answer is that people aren't 'special' interests. This is supposed to be, in Lincoln's words, government of the people, by the people, and for the people. To the extent that people have influence by dint of numbers and enthusiasm, that's what the political process is all about. Such groups should have influence in a democracy; shouldn't be anything special about it.

But when people have influence due to money rather than numbers, that's a special interest.

The lesson of the Conservative Ascendancy over the last 30 years is that "the economy" follows "political economy" and does not lead it.

That is, conditions like flat incomes for everyone but the very wealthy are policy outcomes; they are policy outcomes because the very wealthy set out to destroy all countervailing forces to their own power, and did so. The results are as you see.

Therefore, to see unions as "an interest group" like any other is just.... Silly. Except, of course, to the Villagers.

Krugman, as I see it, like these policy outcomes about as much as I do; that is, not at all.

So, he's doing what a columnist should be doing: Using his column to advocate for the policy outcomes he prefers.

I know this is boring, boring, boring, and people would rather be doing the Inside Baseball thing, or playing the "who's up, who's down" game about their favorite candidate, but Krugman, as ever, is ahead of the curve on the big picture.

Matt,

I really think you miss the point of Krugman's arguments, which while concerned with Obama's rhetoric makes a valid substantive point, one that I'll illustrate here. I agree that liberals shouldn't uncritically back everthing that labor unions want, but we do support them in general ideological terms and view them as our allies. And we do so against conservative opposition that ever since the New Deal has tried to vilify them as "special interests", corrupt bosses dictating to the rest of us. So Obama isn't attacking unions in the 527 flap as "special interests" against a blank slate; he's doing it using the same conservative dog whistle code words that we've faced for over 60 years. Don't you find that rhetoric disturbing? I do. I also find it disturbing that he spends rhetorical energy on a nonexistent Social Security "crisis" that conservatives trumpeted 2 years ago as part of their plan to dismantle Social Security.

I therefore don't find it coincidental that a candidate who spends a lot of his time echoing conservative rhetorical tropes could, as you agree yourself, be running consistently to the right of his rivals. The political rhetoric that candidates use can be an important pointer to where they're coming from ideologically, so I find that Krugman and others who have been troubled by Obama's rhetoric on Social Security, labor, and progressive activism are onto something that you dismiss far too quickly.

LS:

Is your name an Ambassadors reference? If so, very cool!

I think this support of Edwards by Krugman is not going anywhere. The Clintons are going to back. Edwards will not even have a spot in the Cabinet. The media is supporting the Clintons. No one can deny the Clintons their rightful place - The White House. It is their house - yesterday, today, and tomorrow. This is not a democracy. It is a Clintonocracy.

I hope Obama wins. I will fall in love with America again then. It will be a terrific 2008, if Obama wins in IA, NH, and SC.

The complaints from Krugman and his allies about Obama's rhetoric are nothing more than petty sniping.

There was a story over at Daily Kos pointing out that Edwards has talked about a Social Security "crisis" more times than Obama, but Krugman doesn't mention that. In fact, most of the people bringing it up about Obama are Edwards supporters, apparently with no sense of irony.

And with this issue, once again, Krugman is sniping based upon a warped mischaracterization of Obama's comments. If he held Edwards to the same standard, he'd be coming off even worse. Of course, he won't do that because he supports Edwards' populist ideas.

Dumb, stupid, ignorant entry and even dumber comments in the comment section.

Most of Clinton and Obama's support is SOFT EVERYWHERE INCLUDING NEW HAMPSHIRE, regardless of what people say in the polls.

No one is going to say, "OH YEAH, MY SUPPORT IS WEAK." But that's really what they are saying when they say they "COULD CHANGE [THEIR] MIND."

Over 40% in New Hampshire could change their minds.

If Edwards wins Iowa, he will win New Hampshire. Clinton and Obama's support will deflate like an exploding balloon. Edwards will get more than a 10% -- MORE THAN -- bump in New Hampshire, and Clinton and Obama will drop at least 10% -- AT LEAST -- in New Hampshire, simply because they won't look so "INEVITABLE".

Watch. I'll be right, as usual.

Edwards winning Iowa doesn't help Clinton or Obama, and anyone who believes that needs to stop being fooled by Obama's campaign and the television pundits who hate John Edwards.

Live all you can, Scott. It's a mistake not to.

unions a special interest???

when obama says this, isn't he just revealing his sour grapes over this matter? i mean, that man did a whole lot of work to woo the unions as any of the others. now that he doesn't have the union support, he's pushing edwards around about how they are special interests?

when we are talking about special interest groups, we are talking about the funneling of money into a person's campaign thru the back door, esp. using big money donors, not the little folk. the unions get their people out volunteering, canvassing and pledging to vote or caucus for their candidates. i don't see this as the same thing.

as for the 527's, obama is a lawyer, so he should know how the law works--edwards can't talk to these groups, and they can't talk to him. his hands are tied. for a guy who taught constitutional law, he really doesn't seem to know his laws very well.

We really need to move beyond this nonsense that an Edwards win in Iowa helps Clinton or Obama. As someone mentioned before, that is not going to happen. The lack of support for Edwards comes with the media's relentless insinuation that the star power of Clinton and Obama are too much for him to overcome. Rest assured if the popularity of these two candidates (and let's face it much of which is motivated by the aspect of having our first female or Black President) wasn't such a focal point in the news Edwards would've picked up a lot more union support. In fact, the unions showed that they don't have it takes to stand up for the little guy by shying away from Edwards instead of standing behind him and helping him fight his way through these ridiculous polls. I think Hillary Clinton has no chance to win Iowa, and I'm predicting Edwards will win it and Obama will come in a very very close 2nd. That Edwards win in Iowa will add a sense of legitimacy that can propel him forward in NH (where he is 12-15 points behind the leader - very easy to make up with a small surge after an Iowa first place finish) and SC where over 20% of the Democrats in those primaries are undecided.

Mike burbles:


Good post, Matt. Krugman's conclusion was just painful to read. Whatever one thinks about unions, they ARE special interests and to act like they are not is to deny the obvious.

From the perspective of a Villager, or perhaps a DLCer, that might be true.

But from my perspective -- or from the perspective of anyone who wants health care, or a living wage, or not to be fired because it's Tuesday or for whatever other reason may strike the CEO's fancy -- the unions are "special interests" because they're closest to my interests.

See, we have this thing called "politics," which is the field where various competing "special" interests play out, hopefully peacefully. Unforunately for most of us -- though not for the Village -- the field has been radically tilted toward the right, such that most of the right's agenda is not seen as being an "interest" at all. Their interests simply part of the air that we unquestioningly breathe.*

Krugman wants to redress these conditions, and he's right.

That Krugman's big picture/policy outcomes issue is being framed as being "against Hillary" and/or "against Obama" makes me despair not only at the vapidity and cynicism of the Village, but at the even more vacuous wannabe insiderism displayed in so many of these threads.

I sure hope they've got WiFi in the tent cities, because otherwise, I won't be able to blog.

* Which is why rhetoric is important. Winger rhetoric is designed to choke of my oxygen supply, and it has done so very successfully. And if Obama or anyone uses that rhetoric, they choke off my oxygen supply too. New politics my sweet Aunt Fanny.

That's not to say, however, that she'll be the second coming of George W. Bush

On the basis of her closeness of AIPAC & co., HRC is the likeliest of the Democrats to bomb Iran when President, the likeliest to provide cover for W. if he bombs Iran in the run-up to the Nov 2008 vote, and the likeliest to allow Israel to bomb Iran. Don't be lulled by the NIE: Israeli lobby pressure for one of a variety of wars with Iran persists and will continue after 2008. And in the sense that Hillary is the most likely to start another war in the Middle East, HRC may indeed resemble the second coming of George W. Bush.

What hasn't been noted, as far as I have seen -- although it will come as no surprise to anyone who has heard Obama on the stump a few times -- is that Obama is not going for a narrow victory of liberals over conservatives. Obama is going for a mandate. He doesn't want just to win, he wants a landslide.

If he gets what he wants (and I think he will) politics in this country will be transformed a lot quicker than his doubters realize -- much the way Reagan changed everything, virtually overnight, even though his policies didn't take effect for some time.

Obviously, it's far too soon to assume Obama will succeed in his quest. But it's not too soon to point out that the discussion today may well look like hairsplitting tomorrow.

I used to repect Paul Krugman, but he's really going off the deep-end. Unions ARE special interests. They might be special interests that we like more than Big Oil or Big Tobacco, etc. but one of the most fundamental principals of ethics is you don't get to pick and choose. If Edwards says he opposes 527's then he can't accept help from them--even if they are 'friendly' 527's.

The question of 'mandates' is a silly semantic argument put forth by Edwards and parroted by Krugman. A mandate, in the real world, is only as good as the enforcement mechanism. Hillary Clintons plan has no enforcement mechanism and therefore no mandates. She just says her plan has mandates.

Edwards plan, at least, has an enforcement mechanism, but it is hardly "Universal." His enforcement mechanism leaves out anyone who doesn't pay taxes AND/OR anyone who doesn't earn a paycheck that can be garnished--i.e. his so-called 'mandates' leave out the very people who are most likely to opt-out of buying health insurance.

There's not much difference in the amount of people that will be brought in by Edwards plan as compared to Obama's, and Obama's plan will bring in more people than Hillary's plan will.

Every person is a special interest group; stating that unions, as any other organization, have their, and their members, in mind is missing the point. It sounds intelligent but is hardly worth the space it takes.

Unions and the Democratic party are family. The Democrats are a large family: unions, poor, minorities and most of the middle class. Claiming that each of the family members is a special interest group confuses the issue and makes members look like the communication or building industry, which they aren't.

Without the family, Democrats are Rockefeller Republicans, unions in particular.

As for Obama, in my view he is the most right wing of the Democratic candidates, he is a world class opportunist (vote present) and by and large enjoys from the projection of the anti-Clinton right wing conspiracy into a left wing conspiracy where progressives drop Edwards and vote for Obama. The latter is downright ridiculous; why not vote for Rudy?

PS: Unions endorsed Clinton as late as late December when she wasn't inevitable anymore.

A mandate to make Oprah the First Lady maybe.

Great post, Matt! It always warms my heart to see a more illustrious blogger than myself acknowledge the real meaning of the term "special interests," and that you can't pick and choose which ones are "good" and which ones are "bad."

Kit Stolz:
What do you consider a mandate? 55% of the vote? 60%? Has Obama been alive the past 7 years? Does he think the Republicans are gonna just roll over for him like they have for Bush? If so, can I have what you've been smoking?

How would you react if Obama labeled one of the groups you belong to or support (NOW, NAACP, Sierra Club) as meddling special interests? Unions and other advocacy groups certainly meet the definition of interest groups but generally Democratic politicians do not refer to them as such. Obama didn't seem to have a problem with ACORN, the Fraternal Order of Police, and other interest groups when he received their support in 1996, 2000 and 2004.

There is a powerful critique to be made about the shortcomings of "interest group liberalism" but Obama is only concerned with interest groups that support his opponents.

"Obama Comes Up Short on Union Support"
Jesse Holland, AP, December 18, 2007

"And Clinton has nine other well-heeled national unions in her camp, while former North Carolina Sen. John Edwards has four national union endorsements. Obama, meanwhile, has had to make do with city chapters like the Correction Officers' Benevolent Association of New York City and Illinois state chapters of the American Federation of Teachers, AFSCME and the Service Employees International Union. Other state chapters of the service employees union behind Obama include those in Indiana, Wisconsin, Missouri and Kansas."

Gee, now where have I heard the idea of "transcending politics" and "special interests" by "uniting the country" through "personal charisma"? Let me think....

I've heard this music before, and I think I know the tune.

Not to say Obama's playing it, but his fan base certainly seems to be.

"On health care, Obama is consistently running to the right of his rivals" is a much more accurate characterization of the complaint.

I entirely reject this characterization.

All of the Democrats have plans to enlarge the role of government in health care right away, and to set in motion dynamic political and economic factors that will lead to an even larger government role down the road. The heated debate over these plans is not nearly so concerned with "left-right" ideology, as much as it is ultimately just a fight about effective long term political strategy for progressive change in health care. The debate is hampered because neither the candidates nor their agents can go out in public and say "Here's why my plan is a better Trojan Horse than my opponents' plans for a more democratic and socialized national health care system down the road."

The points we are debating are strategy questions. Do we try to sell people now on an individual mandate - with an enforcement mechanism to go with it - and run the risk that this will produce the sort of libertarian "don't tread on me" backlash, easily exploitable by the anti-progressive opponents of all government intervention, that might scuttle the whole effort and set back health care reform for another 15 years? Do we cover more needy, vulnerable and higher risk individuals by offering them only the option to participate in a government plan, or by creating a government regulated exchange that incentivizes competitive participation in a potentially lucrative market for higher risk consumers? Over time, what impact would the existence of this exchange have on the entire health insurance market? Could its regulatory scheme and initial market share be leveraged politically and economically to redistribute risk and extract value from the less-regulated part of the private sector, and draw more and more activity into the government regulated exchange market?

These are all legitimate topics for debate. But I think progressive voters need to do a better job reading between the lines of this debate so far. Effecting progressive change in health care, or anything else, is not simply a matter of pulling some plan off the shelf in the wonk-shop, and saying "I like this one". Many of us might love eventually to see something like the Kucinich plan in place, for example. But of course, Kucinich has no chance of being elected president. And even if by some miracle he were elected, his plan would be torn to shreds in the US Congress.

What Krugman never seems interested in addressing directly is the political challenge of accomplishing a massive structural shift in one of the largest sectors of our economy, where vested interests are prepared to fight vigorously to preserve or enlarge their stake in the current system.

Mark burbles:


... You can't pick and choose which ["special interests"] are "good" and which ones are "bad."

Je repete:

See, we have this thing called politics....

The idea that we can select a "leader" whose "mandate" is to somehow "transcend" politics is not only beyond ignorance historically, it's incredibly dangerous today. All we need in this picture is a white horse. Yet somehow Obama's fan base seems to buy into this notion. Like HRC, Obama is not served well by many of his supporters. At least I hope so, since the alternative is far worse.

Lambert,
Thanks for letting me know what I want. I never said unions weren't useful or that I didn't agree with their general premise (and I certainly didn't say anything about not wanting health care of anything else you decided I was for or against above)...but they simply ARE a special interest, just like the NAACP or the NRA. They are advocating specific positions and viewpoints that would benefit those who back them. I have no problem with that at all.

Shorter Mike P:


a == a

Good to know. If a little vacuous....

Well, maybe I'm missing something, but Obama's only run one real political campaign in his entire life, in which he managed to crush Alan Keyes in a very heavily Democratic state.

Now America's much, much more heavily Republican than Illinois, but I do agree Obama would probably win a decisive though not overwhelming Presidential victory...if the Republicans decide to nominate Alan Keyes...

I think part of Krugman's attacks may have something to do with all the favorable Op-Eds Obama has been getting in the Times, contrasted with several negative ones for Hillary.

He might feel the need to provide the contrarian viewpoint when Times coverage is too one-sided. While I will always respect and admire him for helping bring the rest of the paper (and other media as well) around on the war, I think he is being less useful here. He makes some of the best points against an Obama candidacy, but to me they seem trivial compared with more legitimate worries about Hillary's campaign, or Edward's ability to win the primary.

"Whatever one thinks about unions, they ARE special interests and to act like they are not is to deny the obvious."

Perhaps no one understood this like the Clintons, who spent the 1990s pandering to these interests, in preparation for Hillary's ascendency. But at what price: http://theseedsof9-11.com

Hey look, don't try to find the truth near the voting date.

The problem is that all of you have healthcare so you have the luxury of waiting for 8 or 16 years just to fight for some non-reformist self-loving pure position ignoring the danger that it might never happen. While armchair liberals narcistically argue about the theory behind of all of this people have their houses taken over by banks because they can't afford their mortgage.

Obama has repeatedly said that the French system is the best but as you all know it is unattainable. Now if you understand the power of transparency you will see that these congressmen will fear that the hearings will be on c-span as Barack has advocated.

Shorter Lambert:
Anyone who disagrees with me in good faith is an idiot.

I'm done arguing. It's the season to be merry. Happy Holidays all.

Oh my goodness, Mike.

Anybody who thinks politics can somehow transcend "interest" is indeed an idiot. (And Obama's factitious appeal to "unity" comes dangerously close to this idiotic idea.)

So, Mike, if you believe that, then yes, you are an idiot.

Happy Holidays.

A true mandate is irresistible: that's the point. When Reagan won in l980, he took just over 50% of the popular vote, and the Democrats still controlled the House, but it didn't matter, because they didn't want to challenge him. Will it play out this way this time? If it does, will the Republicans filibuster everything?

I don't pretend to know. I'm just saying that Obama's strategy is worth keeping in mind. He's not after the narrow victory of left over right.

Lambert, I think maybe your view of politics is a little simplistic. Obama is not trying to end ideological conflict -- that will always be with us and Obama knows that full well. What Obama is trying to steer clear of is pandering to narrow special interests. He wants to implement policies that are pro-worker, pro-labor, and pro-union, but not necessarily pro AFSCME or SEIU. He does not want to use policy to reward friends and punish enemies. That is patronage politics and any "progressive" or "liberal" individual worth his/her salt ought to be against that. When he talks about moving past partisan politics, he's talking about moving past narrow, selfish special interests in the interest of policies that are best for all concerned.

Kit:

Your argument is not vacuous, so I'll be nice ;-)

But I'm not understanding it:

1. If Reagan's mandate didn't come from the vote count, where did it come from?

2. What does a mandate mean quantitatively? Everyone but the KoolAid drinkers? (like, 70% of the popular vote?)

3. What does a mandate mean if it's not based on policy outcomes?

The whole "get everyone to sit round the table" just strikes me as papering over real conflicts. It's bizarre, and its very telling that the idea of "unity" started appearing when the Conservative movement stalled, and not before. Everyone in the Village was entirely happy with conflict as long as Conservatives were winning. Now it's suddenly a bad thing.

I don't want to allow the Conservatives to consolidate their gains. I want to claw back what we've lost and destroy their movement, because it's inimical to me personally and to my values.

That's the big picture Krugman is putting forward. The "political economy" drove "the economy."

I don't think appeals to unity understand that, and they're not going to get anywhere, "mandate" or no.

I don't agree that Obama's health care policy is to the right of anyone's. We all the want the same thing. The only disagreement is how to get there. Krugman, Clinton, and Edwards think requiring people to buy insurance gets us closer. I think talking about requiring people to buy insurance risks not getting anywhere, because lots of people will support a plan without mandates but won't support a plan with mandates. So call them stupid. You still won't get their support.

And what does "best for all concerned" mean?

Does anyone really believe that -- say -- "Medicare for all" is going to be seen as "best for all concerned" by most of the Village and the Conservative Movement in particular?

Of course it won't.

"Best for all concerned" means honestly brokered based upon clear progressive principles, not cobbled together based upon narrow selfish interests. As Matt Y points out, progressive interests are frequently in tension. I personally do not want a president who decides which competing progressive interest to favor based upon the fact that one of the progressive interest groups formed a 527 to slime his/her opponent and one of the progressive interest groups formed a 527 to slime him/her.

Doesn't Obama oppose mandates?

Sean:

Well sure. I don't recall advocating slime, and perhaps you can direct me to where I did.

What I believe is that conflict free is content free, and the idea that all we have to do is "transcend narrow partisanship" by "bringing everyone together" around "the same table" is, as Bush I would say, na ga happen. In other words, I believe that Obama's rhetorical stance is not just wrong, but dangerous.

Nor do I have any idea what "honest broker" might mean operationally. Broker between who? The murderers by spreadsheet and the people who aren't getting care? Why is a brokerage metaphor even appropriate here.

And while we're being high-minded about "narrow selfish interests" let me point out that it is absolutely in my "narrow self interest" to not die for lack of health insurance. And so on and so forth.

Our enemy is drowning. Throw him an anvil. Don't sing kumbayah.

I'm not sure who snarky's question was directed to or if it was rhetorical but I'll bite.

Yes, Obama opposes mandates. Though he has said once cost is under control, he might consider them if necessary.

I find it very offensive when a columnist attacks a presidential candidate without the newspaper giving equal time to a response to that atatck. Besides, Krugman's column is infused with a personal animosity that smacks of some unacknowledged prejudice because it does not jibe with Obama's positions, actions and credentials. We can fill in the hostile blanks.

Lambert,

I still think you're missing the point on the Obama approach. The "table" he wants to bring everyone around isn't a dinner table and he doesn't want to get everyone together to sing kumbaya. The "table" is a negotiating table. And by "honest broker" I mean arbiter or judge.

And when I talk about narrow, selfish interests, I'm not talking about being for or against universal healthcare, I'm talking about supporting a policy that would say, undermine the prospect of universal healthcare in order to help Oddfellows Local in Des Moines negotiate a pay raise, for example.

Sheesh. Glad I'm not advocating slime. And, surprise, I'm not advocating the Oddfellows Local in Des Moines either. I'm not sure what the point of all that is.

Really, I think we've got more a == a stuff here.

"Table" not a dinner table. Duh.

"Broker" a judge. Duh.

And last I checked, there was a lot of negotiating going on around metaphorical tables in the Village. Duh.

And Obama would be different how, exactly? Charisma? Appeals to unity? Personal charisma?

Barack Obama is not anti-union. All of the unions in Illinois and surrounding states have endorsed him. Is this just because Senator Obama does not support a mandate for health insurance? How can you force people to participate if they don't have the money? I don't recall John Edwards wanting to change anything about NAFTA when he was in the Senate from 1999 - 2005 or talking about health care for people. He was too busy defending Bill Clinton from impeachment and running for president himself. What did John Edwards do when he was in the Senate? Senator Obama has been working to take lobbyists out of the government and show who is getting all of the earmarks. By the way, Hillary was #3 of those getting the most earmarks.

I remember back in the Mondale Campaign when the AFL-CIO Chief declared that the unions were 100% for the Democratic candidate---of course, nobody asked THE WORKERS THEMSELVES!

Has anyone here heard of the term "Reagan Democrats?" I believe the rank-and-file felt that the leadership was out of touch, among other reasons for that phenomenon.

Krugman's opinions are not only foolish- they're pathetic. If there were a dung beetle race for the most feckless and counter-productive leftist...he'd easily sweep ahead of Mark Shields, Alan Colmes, Al Franken, and Jeanine Garafalo. If you were in a foxhole- would you want this guy by your side? Obama possesses the capacity to work with Republicans. He's not alienating. He offers the chance that there won't be 4-8 more years of paralysis. Edwards? Fine. Get him in there. But, Krugman's candidate Hillary? Stagnation on an epic scale.

Reagan's power didn't come from "mandate", or magic, or Democratic fecklessness (well, not just). He went on TV, and he used his famous charisma to deliver a hella good speech that bought him some space and some political capital, and then he sent Stockman out to spend it. There's no reason to think it couldn't work just the same for a Democrat.

Krugman is an Edwards guy.

I think Atrios most pithily summarized the debate we're having here:

Clinton says the system's corrupt but I'm the best at manipulating it.

Edwards says the system's corrupt and that's why I need to fight it like hell.

Obama says the system's corrupt but that it'll melt before my sheer awesomeness and eloquence.

As Atrios himself might recognize, that's kinda unfair to Obama, but not much. It all depends on how difficult you think it is to realize progressive goals, which also depends on a clear-sighted appraisal of the opposition. From what I've observed over 22 years of voting-age life, the opposition is an unlikely but enduring alliance of economic oligarchs and noisy but ineffectual God-hawkers, ie, they spend a lot of noise on teh gay and teh brown, the godless and the Commies/Muslims, but their operational agenda is about serving the monied interests. And the short version, through Whitewater, Monicagate, the War on Gore, post 9-11 hysteria, Swift Boating, Schiavo, and the recently averted plan to bomb Iran, is that they're wholly implacable and more than a little nuts.

Based on that, I don't think that a rhetoric of strategy of sweet reasonableness is going to cut it in terms of fighting them. Call it a bargaining table or dinner table, call the President the neutral arbiter or what have you, eventually a Democratic President is going to have to fight these guys, either on his/her own initiative or because they attack him and force him to. I prefer the former, and I'm afraid that Obama prefers his posture of above-the-fray awesomeness to doing that.

My God...........
I really don't get the Edwards supporters at all.
I thought that in the age of the internet, that FACTS might have a bearing on who we choose as President.
No, I was wrong.
Edwards is another pandering lying pol, nothing more.
He has had to appologize for his votes on all of the critical fights of the progressive members of congress during his one single term in elected government.
Bankruptcy Reform, wrong side.
Patriot Act, wrong side.
The Iraq AUMF, wrong side.
Where was Hillary on all of these?
Right with Edwards.
It is really incredible how a little populist snake oil can so quickly slide supposedly "high information" progressives right off the tracks towards a government of the people, by the people, and for the people.
Edwards doesn't have a chance in hell of being able to compete, unless he uses soft money from the 527's. That is what he has been counting on all along. That is the reason he has so blatantly bent over and dropped trou for the unions. It isn't because he gives two shitz about "working people", he just wants the soft special interest money because he doesn't have the support of regular people to raise the funds from to compete against Obama or Clinton.
His biggest problem with this dishonest strategy is that in the game of insider favor, and politics as usual, he is trying to get help from the same insiders that the DLC Dems have already sold us regular folks out to. It is an utterly pathetic and doomed strategy, plus it is patently dishonest at it's foundation. Am I spewing "right wing talking points"(tm)? I don't know, and I don't care. I see no reason to stick up for a pandering millionaire like JRE or the DLC cancer of HRC.
I have been an Independant Sound Engineer for almost 30 years. I have absolutely no great love for the Unions. I have seen corruption, and favoritism used over and over again in the IATSE union. That being said, the Artist Management, Concert Promoters, and Oligarchial major Record Companies are enemies for sure. The next President needs to be able to stand in the middle of these special Interests (yes, the golden calf of Unions IS a special interest)in order to protect the average american that doesn't have any political clout. Guys like me who get frozen out by the Union because I won't pay protection money when they have never gotten me work in the first place.

As to what started this whole thing in the first place, the "mandates" issue. It is nothing more than a Strawman. Any idiot can see that there is 0% chance that any healthcare reform that forces Americans to buy insurance, is a total fallacy. Will. Not. Happen. Both Hillary and Edwards know this, and are just trying to score points with it. Fine. That's fair in an election, but please excuse me while I recognize that they are lying to me and Vote for Obama instead.
I prefer to live in the reality based community.
Krugman won't be changing anybody's mind of consequence. The fact is, that most of us out here that would spend the time to actually comment on a political blog site have already made up their mind anyway, no matter WHAT they say.
Personaly, I respect Obama for not bowing down to everything that is considered "liberal" by those in the chattering class that will never be affected by those positions in the first place. I come from Detroit Michigan, and have seen the destruction of the Auto Industry. Labor and Management have EQUAL blame as far as I am concerned. The corrupt auto industry shares the blame with the corupt teamsters and UAW. The sad truth is, in the end, the ones that lose, are those of us in the middle of these fights.
We are the ones that Barack is fighting for, those of us that are collateral damage in the fight between the special interests of the right and the left.
I'll take Obama.
Krugman can kiss my ass.

"Obama possesses the capacity to work with Republicans."

As I read earlier, just like Joe Lieberman possesses the capacity to work with Republicans.

On a totally non-political note, I've just eaten the only palatable fruitcake I've ever had. Yum. It's a Christmas miracle!

"We are the ones that Barack is fighting for, those of us that are collateral damage in the fight between the special interests of the right and the left."

Another we are the ones moron.

AFSCME President Gerald McEntee denounces mandates before congress, supports Hillary who is proposing mandates, then puts out an ad attacking Obama and quoting Edwards while failing to mention Hillary. Poor union leadership has had a lot to do with the decline in membership, it is often corrupt and more often self serving. Hillary sat on Walmart's board, a company which has not been friendly towards unions. She also employs Mark Penn (his company has worked to bust unions for clients) as her campaign manager. So why does McEntee endorse Clinton rather than Edwards? Why doesn't he stand up for the union he represents, if he won't why should anyone else.


Ezra Klein and Krugman both are wrong and both need to stop pretending they understand progressive issues or unions if they are buying into this it's OK for 527's to run ads as long as it is unions.

Unions are nothing but another special interest group and they are in Hillary's DLC pocket just as sure as shootin.

Obama is the only one who is honest and upfront the rest of these folks are lying hypocrites

Trevor, what's your basis for claiming that Hillary is Krugmans' preferred candidate? I don't see how anyone who has regularly followed Krugman's columns over the past year or so could reasonably say that. Of the top three, he clearly favors Edwards. I personally think Krugman has miscalculated in going after Obama (mainly because I'm fervently anti-Hillary and I'm willing to give Obama the benefit of the doubt though his rhetoric worries me). But to call Krugman feckless just shows that you're clueless. One could argue that, more than any single individual, Krugman has spearheaded the paradigm shift toward a more left-leaning populist consciousness in our country.

The fact is, Krugman is direct, empirically-driven and doesn't parse words--he's more like a Brit or European political thinker/commentator in that respect. And in the timid, sycophantic, tribal world of American political discourse, a lot of people can't deal with that when the razor analysis comes swinging back around at their favored guy. Having said that, I still don't like Krugman's targetting of Obama--from a strategic perspective. If Hilary gets in there, it's all over.

Lambert,
Again, that is not what I said at all. If you haven't, I would suggest you read Mark Schmitt's piece about Obama's rhetoric and tactics. It make a very interesting case again what you see as Obama's happy go lucky speak.

Also, I am fairly certain that you and I probably want the same things but we differ about how to get there. I'm not "the enemy".

(1) Krugman is intellectually dishonest.

Why? Because he is cynically using the Times’ megaphone, while hiding behind the Times’ policy prohibiting endorsement of any candidate, to promote the interest of his own candidate, John Edwards, by attacking the candidate who is poised to defeat his candidate. All the while pretending that he is merely putting forward the arguments of a disinterested observer with technical expertise who has studied the economics of the issue

(2) Krugman is politically naïve.

Why? Because he is using armchair economics theorizing about moral hazard (his simplistic basis for bashing the lack of mandates) to beat over the head someone who is much more alert to (and has the longstanding track record and experience to prove it) the political modus operandi needed to successfully achieve legislation in the environment of actual struggle with political opponents. His childish claims about the need for “bitter confrontation”, unsupported by any serious argument about how this is supposed to achieve results in the actual context of the US Congress, simply underlines his political naivete.

Krugman is wrong this time around, as he will always be on Barack. Obviously, Obama is not a populist politician, he is more of a realist. He only say things that he is sure of being workable not what certain groups want to hear. He is sincere and always looks for the practical ways of achieving liberal ideals.

John Edwards to me, is like a Democrats version of republican's Mitt Romny. He will always say, do or even appologize to anything as long as it help his position at that particular time. I can't even tell if John had ever taken a position that is unpopular for the benefit of the liberals/nation? (Forget about his self enriching court battle). He always sides with populitst positions as long as they serve him in that particular incident. That's how he came to vote for the war in Iraq and appologize when he decided to run but only after the war went sour Now he comes with some populist slogans such as an ant-poverty candidate, special interest fighter etc. Does he have anything to back-up these rhetorics? How much of his millions has he spent on poverty reduction than having a $4000 hair cut? Obama having worked to help workers who lost their jobs and in ghetos with his Havard + Columbia degrees could easly claim this tittle. To me John Edward is just another Dem's Mitt Romney.

On Hillary Clinton, not much really needs to be said about her, she is widely agreed as a Dem's version of Bush+Chenney. A dynasty in the making. Her IPAC centered foreign policies are obviouly going to drag us into Iran and whereever esle they will instruct her to take us. She is obviously a self promoted president, with selfish dynastical ambition. This time around we need a prez whose experience is rooted in the real life of the ordinary Americans, but also well versed on our challenges on the mess George B, created in the middle east and is not too absorbed by the ways of the washington. To me, only Obama possess most if not all of these credentials and is also capable of winning the general election and cherish our liberal aspirations. Let's rally behind him and give him the mandate to change. Go Obama.

> Krugman is intellectually dishonest ... Krugman is politically naïve.

Does anyone know what the latest polling numbers are for the all-important Pathetic Troll Primary?

Until I joined this thread, I would have said HRC by a mile, but now, I'm really not so sure.

Nice to see Obama, taking the views of his fan-base as a proxy for his own, running right, and right into the arms of the Village.

Cuts through all that unity, new kind of politics crap with really refeshing candor. Thanks, Justin. (Assuming you're an Obama troll, and not some kind of weird Rovian bankshot kind of troll. Who knows, at this point?)

"This kind of thing is why I'll be glad when this primary race is over."

You'd be enjoying the primary race quite a bit more if you weren't rooting for such an anti-left candidate, Matt.

Picking up on a question asked about 25 posts ago...Reagan won about 50% of the vote; Carter won about 40%. Anyone politically aware at that time will recall how earth-shaking that victory was.

Now, again, my point is not that such a victory, however sweet, is foreordained. My point is that Obama is consciously aiming towards that end, which if he achieves will have a huge effect. Perhaps his strategy is foolish; perhaps a mandate for a Democratic presidential candidate is impossible. But folks who think that this is about being sweet and reasonable towards Republicans are missing the point. Obama wants to run the table. If he succeeds, a lot of what we're bickering about now will be completely forgotten -- just as only the history majors remember what FDR promised before he was elected.

Hey baba, not even the Republican trolls talk about a four thousand dollar haircut.

Assuming, of course, that you aren't a Republican troll, playing the super-vehement Obama troll to such an extreme extent as to discredit the poor man. But take you at face value:

Hey, if Obama, bless his heart, wants to have a Sister Souljah moment and appeal to the Village by trashing progressives, then have at it, say I. Knock yourselves out.

But please don't insult the intelligence of your readers by calling that new politics, and then appealing for unity. That's very old politics, and not very well practiced at that.

Or do only insurance companies deserve seats at the table, and not Paul Krugman or unions?

> Obama wants to run the table.

Maybe. To me, Sister Souljah tactics that tack toward the center look a lot more like standard Beltway consultant tactics to me.

And to ask again the question I asked about 25 posts ago:

What does a mandate look like quantitatively?

The answer I get from Kit right now is 50/40 (and not the number of all Americans - the KoolAid drinkers, which would be the mother of all mandates at abot 70/30).

OK, so 50/40 is the yardstick. So far as I can tell, any Democrat finds those numbers well within reach.

So I don't that this means that only Obama can "run the table."

Further, the kumbayah stuff makes me think Obama's going to end up negotiating with himself like Harry and Nancy constantly do -- to the great detriment of progressives and the country, I might add.

"Picking up on a question asked about 25 posts ago...Reagan won about 50% of the vote; Carter won about 40%. Anyone politically aware at that time will recall how earth-shaking that victory was."

But why was it such a politically earth-shaking election? Others have won by similar margins without shaking things up.

What made Reagan's victory so important is that he was running on ideas and rhetoric that were perceived as being out of the mainstream before his election.

And, of course, that's why an Edwards victory would move the political mainstream to the left in a way that a victory by the cautious centrism of Clinton and Obama can not.

Edwards is willing to run as a populist, proud progressive. If he can win like that, he'll shift Washington as much as Reagan did.

Petey,
That would assume that Edwards could win the general. Jonathan Alter (as well as the guys at Democracy Arsenal) made the very good point last week in response to Krugman's populist op-ed that while populist sentiment sounds good in primaries, it rarely wins the White House.

"That would assume that Edwards could win the general. Jonathan Alter (as well as the guys at Democracy Arsenal) made the very good point last week in response to Krugman's populist op-ed that while populist sentiment sounds good in primaries, it rarely wins the White House."

And prior to Reagan winning the WH, no one had ever won the WH on a populist platform of radical conservatism.

Edwards has consistently done better than Clinton and Obama in general election matchups all year long. Presidential general elections get won on personality and cultural markers, which is precisely how Reagan won with such a radical platform.

And it's exactly the same reason why all the evidence shows Edwards as the most electable Dem despite running clearly to the left of the field.

If you care about moving the mainstream of politics, when you find a candidate who can simultaneously run to the base while also having the best general election support, you know you have something special.

If you're not willing to run on anything out of the mainstream - ala Clinton and Obama - you're not going to be able to change Washington after you win.

Of course, perhaps you just prefer Obama's centrism to progressivism. Perhaps you're a big fan of the Harry Reid / Nancy Pelosi brand of Washington Dems. If so, then you ought to be supporting Obama.

Lambert--

Do you actually have any substantive disagreements with Obama, aside from healthcare mandates?

I ask because all of your comments on this board deal with tactics and rhetoric. Not that these aren't worth discussing, of course, but you couch your disagreements as policy-based, which allows you to claim the mantle of substance, but then you never actually talk about issues.

Put another way, I think you suffer from means-ends confusion. You don't like Obama's style, that's fine, but I'm interested to hear why you think he's so anti-progressive, given

1) His hold on Spakovsky's nomination to FEC (why aren't liberals paying more attention to this issue???!!)

2) His vote against the bankruptcy bill (Hillary was the only Senator not to vote in 2005, after voting "yes" in 2001)

3) His work for campaign finance reform and against bogus voter id laws

4) His proposal to raise the cap on the payroll tax, thus making SS funding much less regressive

That's just off the top of my head.

I look forward to your substantive response.

Cheers!

"1) His hold on Spakovsky's nomination to FEC (why aren't liberals paying more attention to this issue???!!)"

Because it seems to be motivated by a desire to keep Edwards from collecting matching funds.

Because it's the worst kind of political dirty tricks, and is reason enough to veto Obama as the nominee of the Party.

If Obama wants to bash progressives, I think he'll find progressives bashing him.

Petey:

> he was running on ideas and rhetoric

True, Petey, but let's also remember that the winger institutions like AEI and Heritage had also been well funded and in operation for a decade or more, and the right had already started "working the refs" with the press. So, when Reagan took office, he had a strong infrastructure that had developed those ideas and that rhetoric and could carry it forward.

We won't have an infrastructure that's nearly so strong (although it's better than it was). Which makes it all the more important not to negotiate with ourselves at the start.

You know, we already tried what Obama wants to do. We tried all the honest brokerage stuff. We tried getting everybody around the table to negotiate.

We tried singing kumbaya, and it was called the 110th Congress. We tried singing kumbaya by taking impeachment off the table. We tried singing kumbaya by only sending sternly worded letters and never enforcing subpoenas. We tried singing kumbaya by letting the Republicans set a world record for filibustering. We tried singing kumbaya by negotiating on S-CHIP. We tried singing kumbaya by honoring Republican holds and never our own. We tried singing kumbaya on FISA and Bush broke his word on it.

Harry and Nancy already tried singing kumbaya, and we didn't get squat because you can't negotiate with Conservatives. They don't believe in it, and when they fake it, they don't negotiate in good faith. It's Lucy and the football, every single time.

And when Obama tries the same thing -- remember, with the same 50/40 mandate that Hillary and Edwards could get too -- the same thing is going to happen to him.

The only problem is that it's going to take another year, from Inauguration day on, for Obama to discover, just like Harry and Nancy have, that singing kumbaya isn't going to achieve progressive policy outcomes. Can the country really afford another year? I don't think so.

lambert,

I don't think you can really extrapolate your idea of how a Democratic majority in Congress should have dealt with the Bush administration to how a Democratic administration should deal with a Republican minority in Congress.

They're pretty dissimilar situations, and a lot of the frustration you're feeling will abate simply by virtue of Bush and Cheney not being in office anymore.

marcj:

My issues with Obama aren't tactical (winning the election) but strategic* (achieving policy outcomes). I think the vision he presents of how American politics should work in the 21st century is cannot achieve the policy outcomes that I (and I believe most Americans) prefer.

As I say above, we tried singing kumbaya. It didn't work.

* Incidentally, if 30 years of Conservative rule have taught us -- or should have taught us -- anything, it's that to think strategically is to think rhetorically (though not vice versa, and there are more components to strategy than rhetoric). When Obama adopted Conservative talking points on Social Security, he may have done so for short-term, tacking-right reasons, but it also undid several years of hard progressive work discrediting Village-centric "crisis" rhetoric. Very bad move.

Petey

Has it ever occured to you that Obama has been against Hans von Spakovsky being on the FEC because he has been using his position at the DOJ to suppress the minority vote? Not everything centers around the Democratic primary!

"Has it ever occured to you that Obama has been against Hans von Spakovsky being on the FEC because..."

For a guy who is never willing to take a strong stand, it's pretty amazing that the one time Obama is willing to do so is precisely on an issue that will prevent Edwards from getting FEC funds.

I mean, if Obama were really against Spakovsky, wouldn't he just vote 'present'?

This is dirty politics, and it's the first thing that's come along that is a reason to veto Obama for the nomination. Obama's attack on unions this week is the second reason.

[I should make it crystal clear that I will cheerfully vote for ANY Democrat over ANY Republican, give them money, work for them, etc. That said:]

southpaw:

I understand the argument you're making, but I think you underestimate the difficulties we're going to face. The Conservatives* have set up a layered architecture and the Presidency is part, but perhaps not even the most of it now. We are going to be dealing with the Bush legacy for some time to come. Think of it this way:

1. Presidency: OK, we capture that.

But it won't be a simple matter of "transition," where a reasonably apolitical executive branch adjusts to a transfer of power. It won't be the same as now, it's going to be worse, because right now all these guys are getting their way.

2. Boards and agencies: Infested with Republican and Christianist moles, stay-behind agents, and operatives, all of whom will need to be purged.

3. Civil service: Ditto, especially DHS from which (thanks Joe Lieberman) civil service protections were removed.

4. Military: Ditto. Check out the Military Religious Freedom Foundation

5. Executive branch generally: Ditto. Imagine everything is like Justice, because it will be.

6. Intelligence: Ditto, plus the torturers and war criminals still in office.

7. Privatized functions: Billions all going to Republican and Christianist operatives like Blackwater and the faith-based people. Do you let that go, or try to stop it?

8. The press: Needless to say, will not be on our side.

And let's not even talk about the courts.

You can't "sit down at the table" with these guys because not only to they take all the food, they own the table.

They are all happy with matters exactly as they are. They've made a lot of money, and they have a lot of power. They want to prevent the policy outcomes that I, and most Americans, prefer. It's a complete illusion to think that being an "honest broker," or appealing to "unity," or appealing to charisma is going to achieve anything.

Singing kumbaya didn't work for Harry and Nancy, not only because of "the votes," but because of all the other forces, listed above, arrayed against them. So far as I can tell, the only way to deal with them is to attack, to fight -- like FDR did, or like Truman did, or like Teddy Roosevelt, or even Andrew Jackson did.

* Making the usual assumptions that an election will take place, will not be stolen, and that if a Democrat is elected, they will be allowed to take office.

Petey,

I saw Obama speak at the Miami book fair last year,and he talked about voting rights with a great deal of passion. I don't think that his concern is about Edwards but about ordinary black and brown people being denied the right to vote.

Petey,

I saw Obama speak at the Miami book fair last year,and he talked about voting rights with a great deal of passion. I don't think that his concern is about Edwards but about ordinary black and brown people being denied the right to vote.

Sorry for the double post.

Given Krugman's ostensible concern about implementing a progressive health care plan, one would think that he would have a question or two about Clinton's "promise" to deliver her health care plan by the end of her second term. What kind of a promise is that? By what criteria shall we hold her accountable at the end of her first term?

On that point and a myriad others Clinton lands far to the right of Obama.

If health care were the only issue Krugman had raised in direct opposition to Obama, one might conclude Krugman merely had overstretched in his concern for mandates and his passion for health care.

This last column, however, on ostensible topic number three gives pretty clear evidence that Krugman has embraced a role of political hack. Even more so based on the vacuousness of what he's written in this series. Krugman is not only losing credibility with me with this series of over-stretching. He's lost it.

MGJ:

Yes, I've listened to Obama speak, and he's impressive. I don't think he's right on the big picture, but I don't think he's a shill or a fool or a huckster. If he's our choice, he'll make a fine candidate.

That said, there is a subtle pleasure to be taken in doing the right thing when that right thing is also very much to your advantage. And if holding up that evil spawn Spakovsky means Edwards doesn't get his matching funds, then there are going to be a lot of Democratic voters denied a full spectrum of choices, and right now, too, not at some hypothetical future date.

Plus, I'd be a lot more happy with the idea that Obama is acting completely on principle on this one if he'd actually come back to DC to help Dodd out with the FISA filibuster on the floor, instead of issuing another vague statement of "support."

In regards to the military and the intelligence agencies I think there's good reason to believe both are utterly frustrated with the Bush administration, from the soliders who haven't seen their families in many months to the top brass who know how nutty an invasion of Iran would be to the operatives who dumped the NIE all over Cheney's Iran project. As for the press, it may not be on the Democrats' side, but it won't be the GOP side either. The media is on its own side, period. Reagan knew how to massage it to a gentle purr (with occasional hiss), and Clinton also kept it from getting too hostile, but it takes a special gift to accomplish that. Like sharks the media will frenzy to rip apart anything that leaks even a little blood in its water.

Second, is Mr. Obama saying that if nominated, he’d be willing to run without support from labor 527s, which might be crucial to the Democrats? If not, how does he avoid having his own current words used against him by the Republican nominee?

That is the crux of Krugman's argument. And he is right. It is the same criticism that he leveled over the mandates, that Obama has been borrowing from the rhetoric of the right to attack his opponents. Not what we need since the Right will use those words like a cudgel when their time comes. The Dems are doing an amazing job of raising funds this time around, leaving the Republicans in the dust, but what good will it do if Obama has foreclosed use of 527 money and Conservative 527s outspend progressive 527s twenty to one. Imagine a campaign made up almost completely of Harry and Louise commercials. It appears that Obama is already going the Harry and Louise route on the health care mandates, but what happens when the other side hits him with 527 ads aimed at his policy stances?

It won't be 50/40 unless Paul or Bloomberg run as a third party candidate. Any of the Big 3 should win the general but I believe only Edwards is capable of reaching 55/45. With the current political climate, I think anything over a six point spread would be seen as significant and both Obama and Clinton could reach that number. The Edwards "mandate" centered on anti-corporatist policies would be far more progressive than an Obama "mandate" involving conciliatory grand bargaining or a Clinton "mandate" based on experience.

Also, Edwards is better at the top of the ticket in many of the states with possible Senate pickups. Obama supporter Mark Schmitt points out how important reaching 57 seats is before deftly setting up a comparison between his candidate and Senator Clinton.

Sean Wright - 'Obama opposes mandates' was a riff on Obama's healthcare proposal, his entire come together persona and his supporters' belief his recent attacks from the right are part of a brilliant campaign strategy that will lead to the all important mandate.

(Please note mandates were available for a 2.4% margin in 2004 as long as you 'earned capital in the campaign, political capital, and now intend to spend it.'

What a load of nonsense.
Who put homophobia on stage at a campaign event? Wasn't the GOP that I'm aware of but it was Obama. Whose campaign, months ago, told a reporter for this campaign to dig into Bill Clinton's personal life? Obama's campaign.
Obama's a joke and a jerk.
Who told The New York Times in 2004 that he wasn't sure how he would have voted in 2002 if he was in the Senate? Barack Obama.
It's really disgraceful the way you have all gone after Paul Krugman for telling just a few truths about Obama.
Matthew's pushed his favorite candidate, not Krugman.
And Dennis Kucinich has a real health care plan so Matthew needs to learn how to write.
(I'm not supporting Kucinich, I'm not supporting HRC. I am supporting John Edwards.)

Lambert,

Thanks for the substantive response.

I guess that where you and I disagree is on whether Obama sees what you call "kumbaya" as a tactic (my view) or as a strategy (your view) ((if you haven't, I highly recommend that you read the Mark Schmitt article another poster recommended)). I believe that he's making conciliatory noises because he recognizes that, absent 60 reliable votes in the Senate, it's absolutely necessary, in order to achieve real substantive change, for a candidate to (at least appear to) entertain all policy options.

Hey, if the right goes against 100+ years of precedent and advocates a legitimate progressive platform for change, let's co-opt it. More likely they don't, but at least then BO's conciliatory approach will have smoked them out, and brought their bs into the open by asking them to actually make a proposal. Because unfortunately, starting from the current positions, the left bears the burden--in order to effect actual progressive change, we've got to win a super-majority, whereas our opponents need only 40%.

BOttom line--I believe that Obama harbors no illusions about the thugs on the other side, but he'll welcome anyone on board who's willing to join. And he knows that he'll win over more of the squishy middle if he at least appears to be negotiating in good faith (which I think he is, but the right isn't) than otherwise.

Maybe he's wrong, and maybe I'm wrong--I certainly don't want him to make any substantive concessions without first securing actual policy progress--but I believe that his approach is most likely to work.

Hopefully we'll all find out when he's President.

Cheers!!!

Petey--

You should be embarrassed. The implications of your post re: Spakovsky are

1) there are not legitimate reasons to oppose the appointment, to the FEC, of a man who has made a career of suppressing Black and Democratic votes;

2) the lack of a quorum on the FEC is the fault of those (2) Dems opposing Spakovsky, and not of the Republicans who have decided that the fate of four (4!) FEC seats should hinge on the Senate's consent to one manifestly unqualified nominee;

and

3) Obama (and Feingold) should remove holds on Spakovsky's nomination because it's preferable to have a known vote-suppresser like HvS on the FEC, and to have Edwards receiving matching funds; than otherwise.

Look--I'm an Obama supporter but I like Edwards, and if Hillary is the nominee I'll grin and more than bear it. I give Edwards major props for being the one major player in the past 3 decades-+ to talk meaningfully about the poor. I don't ascribe his rhetoric to election-time expendience; I credit his rhetoric, despite a lack of policy action and achievement. So don't you at least owe some credit to Obama, who's actually using his authority as a Senator to effect progress (much as I like Edwards, when did he do this?)?

And if not--please explain why Edwards is less of an empty suit than Obama, given their respective Senate records.

Thanks, and cheers.

Thankfully we have Mr Krugman using his ink to protect us from the dangerously individualistic and free thinking Barack Obama. He really understands us folks and what is best for us. I hope he forces me into mandated health care; because care of my own health cannot be entrusted to me. After Mr Krugman solves our healthcare coverage crisis, I pray that he can dismantle the companies that invent the medicines that many peoples' health depend on. How unfair that inventors and employers have the ability to be rewarded for their work and risk.

Who is John Gault?

I'm am so sick of this Kumbaya characterization. It's downright idiotic and doesn't reflect what Obama is saying. If that's all you are hearing, you are making false assumptions.

Assumption 1#: Lobbying for the support of Republicans is the same as catering to Republicans.

Assumption 2#: You can't beat them with sheer "awesomeness".

I'm not so sure these two premises are really true. Just because you want to pull a Reagan-style "win them with your sheer awesomeness" doesn't mean your awesomeness has to include giving them what they want. George Bush and Reagan are two examples of people who get what they want because they cast themselves in the role of Great Leader of Unabashed Integrity. As long as they can point to their own integrity(much of which comes from the "messianic" speaking-style people keep bashing Obama for) and use that integrity as a weapon against their foes, they are powerful presidents.

Watch Obama's speech at the JJ dinner and you can almost feel the man bashing his opponents over the head with nothing but sheer awesomeness, his voice reaching past Howard Dean territory but without any fear or shame. Is it, policy-wise, more substantive? No. But it doesn't sound vacuous. Why? Because the sheer boldness, fullness, "awesomeness", is sending the real, subtextual message here: I'm tough, my voice will drown out your voice and if you stand in my way I will overpower you with my sheer force of will. That sort of tonal message has a profound effect on people that Obama's detractors often fail to realize.

Here's my point on electability: This country's middle doesn't really care about issues. If they did, they wouldn't have voted for George W. Bush. What this country's middle cares about is having someone as their figurehead who they can imagine in the role of Great Leader(wind-surfing, bunny-suit Kerry doesn't fit the bill). For the left and right, this is strictly about issues. For the middle, this election is a casting call for a place in America's mythology. Be the better mythologizer and you win.

I think Obama is, by far, the superior candidate when it comes to this criteria.

"To return to point one, though, the whole Krugman-Obama feud started over the issue of health insurance mandates."

Well no. It started when Obama accused Hillary at a Russert led debate of not having a plan to address Social Security 'Crisis'. Krugman hit him on that hard, in my view fairly but hard none the less. That would have been that but the awareness of the composition of Obama's economic team (Goolsbee, Liebman, and Cutler) combined with the language Obama was not backing off from let the fuse for the mandates question.

It is fair to ask why Obama brought an author of the privatizing Liebman-MacGuineas-Samwick Non Partisan Social Security Reform Plan on as a senior advisor if he was not prepared to forward his signature issue. Likewise it is fair to criticize Obama's health plan based on what you know about his health care advisor (Cutler). To cap it off you have to wonder what kind of progressive chooses to front his economic team with a guy from the University of Chicago (Goolsbee - praised by George Will in a column).

You can attempt to parse policy out of campaign appearances, but far more important is to see who the candidate chose to formulate those policies. On the Clinton side I am troubled by the prominent role of union buster Mark Penn. On the Edwards side I am a little troubled that his lead economics guy is an ex cable executive. But as a Social Security geek I am really, really bothered that Obama decided to hire a privatizer. Alarm bells are going off in my head and it seems in Krugman's.

It is like when Giuliani brought the Pod on board. You knew batshit crazy stuff on Iran would start coming out his mouth. Well four or five months after Obama hired Liebman scary things started coming out his mouth about Social Security and Health Care. I don't think any of this was personal on Krugman's part, at least not in the beginning. All progressives should be seriously worried about where and from whom he is getting advice. On economics the signs are not good.

Bruce Webb:

Frankly I hadn't been following the Obama campaign or related issues very closely, but if what you say is correct, the Democrats supporting him for the nomination must really have holes in their heads...

Let's add it up. We're talking about a black guy named Barak Hussein Obama, an admitted former cocaine user whose father was a polygamous African Muslim. He has negligible political experience and his only private-sector experience was working a year or two at a tiny newsletter in New York City. Being a totally "new face," his national support has zero depth, leaving him extremely vulnerable to attacks, fair or unfair.

On the ideological front, once he arrived in DC, he pointed to Joe Lieberman as his personal political mentor, has brought on board the Social Security "reform" people, and is now allegedly running "Harry and Louise" style commercials attacking Edwards' medical care proposals in Iowa.

Perhaps he is indeed an "inspiring speaker" and all that---I don't watch much TV myself---but offhand his candidacy seems likely to make a pretty good try at losing fifty states, unless the big Republican consultants decide to throw the election...or all die laughing first.

Joe Novak, a veteran Chicago political operative and former Chief of Staff of a Democratic Congressman. Novak put together a high quality video and posted it on his website www.obamatruth.org and the video download site of www.youtube.com.
After viewing the video, some will think OBAMA is an acronym for Overly Bothersome Aggressive Money Appetite. The video includes information on
" How the Senator’s wife received an unusual and extremely generous salary increase from a hospital that seeks to protect its not-for-profit status, shortly after her husband was sworn in as a U.S. Senator.
" How the abuses of the not-for-profit hospital where Michelle Obama works directly contradict the Senator’s oft stated promise of making health care more affordable.
" How by working with a political fixer who at the time was the public target of a U.S. Justice Department investigation (the political fixer was later indicted), Senator Obama was able to save money when buying his new mansion.
" How Senator Obama, who had addressed a union group that is outspoken in their opposition to Wal-Mart (especially the compensation of the CEO of Wal-Mart), failed to tell the group about the compensation of the CEO of the company where his wife sits as a member of the Board of Directors-an amount more than double the compensation for the Wal-Mart executive, for a company whose revenues are 400 times less.

Questions about Senator Obama's shocking dearth of international experience: doubts over Barack Obama's foreign policy credentials were expressed, after it emerged he had made only one brief official visit to London - and none elsewhere in Western Europe or Latin America. Obama failed to convene a single policy meeting of the Senate European subcommittee, of which he is chairman."These facts are a sobering counterpoint to a Boston Globe editorial that endorsed Obama for having "an intuitive sense of the wider world with all its perils and opportunities." Intuition may be a laudable quality among psychics and palm readers, but for a professional American diplomat it has no relevance to serious discussion of foreign policy. In fact, Obama's supposed "intuitive sense" is no different from George W. Bush's "instincts" and "gut feeling" describing his own foreign policy decision-making. We have been down this road before.

RKU could you be more of a disgusting racist? Try harder, now, you disgusting racist creep.

I thought what Kevin Drum had to say was interesting:


But I have to say: my less charitable feelings toward Obama aren't wearing off. They're growing. It's true that I've never been a big fan of his Kumbaya schtick, but I also recognized it as both sincere and a good campaign tactic. I figured that if he could use it to win an election and build a wave of public opinion for progressive policies, that would be great.

Obviously, though, adopting winger talking points (so-called Social Security "crisis") isn't the way to be generating that wave of public opinion, as Kevin is too polite to say.

But you know what? I've been voting for three decades now. I've heard lots of politicians take up the "bold truthteller" meme. I've listened to lots of great speeches. I've seen plenty of campaigns that turned on whether the press simply felt more warmly disposed toward one candidate or the other for no good reason. (It's Christmas, so: yes, Bob, the worst example in recent memory was the press corps' treatment of Gore and Bush in 2000.) And I've also been exposed to my share of "post-partisan" candidates who could somehow bring a third way to America's hyperpartisan politics.
One reason American politics is so hyperpartisan is that after the Southern Strategy, your stone racists left the Democrats and went with the Republicans, so the kind of cozy deal-making -- oops, sorry, "honest brokerage" and "unity" -- that Broder and the Village look back on with such nostalgia is no longer possible. Say, do the stone racists get to sit around the big "negotiating" "table" too, along with the murder-by-spreadsheet insurance companies? Or is it only people who call bullshit on corporations who don't get a seat?

Maybe this is one reason that I'm not quite as taken by Obama as a lot of people: I've seen it before. Gene McCarthy, Jimmy Carter, John Anderson, Gary Hart, Paul Tsongas, and John McCain, among others, have all taken up this banner in past elections. And not to put too fine a point on it, but this isn't exactly a hit parade of either electoral or policy success.

Bingo. The electoral ground is more in our favor than it ever was. But policy success? Kumbaya won't cut it. Let's not, as Democrats, persist in the habit of bringing a "Hello Kitty" pencil case to a gunfight, OK?

So, what Kevin said. And to any overly excitable members of Obama's fan base: Please, let's not have the argument that Drum's trying for a post in a Clinton or Edwards administration, mkay? That was old when it was first tried with Krugman, and it's really old now.

Jennifer, Baby Jesus wants you to get in the Xmas spirit.

Petey:
Because it seems to be motivated by a desire to keep Edwards from collecting matching funds.

Because it's the worst kind of political dirty tricks, and is reason enough to veto Obama as the nominee of the Party.

Shows he'll be able to play hardball with the Republicans.

2) His vote against the bankruptcy bill (Hillary was the only Senator not to vote in 2005, after voting "yes" in 2001)

3) His work for campaign finance reform and against bogus voter id laws

4) His proposal to raise the cap on the payroll tax, thus making SS funding much less regressive

In Illinois he did good work getting the police union to agree to video tape interogations, thereby protecting lower class innocents.

I disagree on #4 and think it would undermine social security. I like Edwards and Krugman, but it's looking like Obama would be the best candidate.

First, he's winning in the polls in Iowa, which is bringing on the attack machine. Hillary as prez would do a lot for gender equality, more than people think I bet, but Obama has shrewdly been campaigning on the theme that he can work with Republicans and the vast center of Republocrats. (Witness his Jedi Mind Trick on David Brooks.) Whereas Hillary would drive the right to obstructionist distraction.

We tried singing kumbaya, and it was called the 110th Congress.

We tried triangulation with Hillary's experience (i.e. Bill Clinton) and that gave us welfare reform (kicking the poor off the rolls)and little else. The percentage of membership in private sector unions went down in the 90s. The job creation of the 90s was due to low interest rates and Alan Greenspan which ended with the Tech Bubble.

Krugman's opinions are not only foolish- they're pathetic. If there were a dung beetle race for the most feckless and counter-productive leftist...he'd easily sweep ahead of Mark Shields, Alan Colmes, Al Franken, and Jeanine Garafalo. If you were in a foxhole- would you want this guy by your side? Obama possesses the capacity to work with Republicans.

Janeane Garofalo. At least spell it right. And I wouldn't mind having her in my foxhole, she's awesome!

This whole debate on mandates has been blown out proportions. Some people act like that mandates are the end all and be all of progressivism. They are not. Since when requiring people to buy insurance, even if there are subsidies in place, is progressive. Does anyone remember the old liberal maxim about attracting people to government programs: build and they will come. Meaning that people are reasonable and they can decide for themselves whether or not a government program is worthy of support. You don't need a mandate to this.

MGJ:

And the historical data record to support your argument would be?

Lambert -

Bingo. The electoral ground is more in our favor than it ever was. But policy success? Kumbaya won't cut it. Let's not, as Democrats, persist in the habit of bringing a "Hello Kitty" pencil case to a gunfight, OK?

Never had such a pencil case. Great comment.

Lambert--

I'm confused: even if your characterization of the 110th Congress were accurate, how would that be relevant to the negotiating approach a Democratic President should take when dealing with a Democratic Congress that unfortunately include a recalcitrant Republican Senate minority?

How, exactly, does your approach--which, by the way, is not at all clear to me on a tactical level, just an attitudinal one--get us to 60 votes in the Senate?

Nice reverse move, there, RKU, burying Bruce Webb's substantive comment under a load of racist crapola. Then Jennifer buries RKU, and Webb's substantive point gets lost:


You can attempt to parse policy out of campaign appearances, but far more important is to see who the candidate chose to formulate those policies. On the Clinton side I am troubled by the prominent role of union buster Mark Penn. On the Edwards side I am a little troubled that his lead economics guy is an ex cable executive. But as a Social Security geek I am really, really bothered that Obama decided to hire a privatizer. Alarm bells are going off in my head and it seems in Krugman's.

It is like when Giuliani brought the Pod on board. You knew batshit crazy stuff on Iran would start coming out his mouth. Well four or five months after Obama hired Liebman scary things started coming out his mouth about Social Security and Health Care. I don't think any of this was personal on Krugman's part, at least not in the beginning. All progressives should be seriously worried about where and from whom he is getting advice. On economics the signs are not good.

Webb connects some dots here. Given the advisors Obama has chosen, it looks to me like Obama's not mindfucking Brooks at all, but playing footsie with him (Bareback Andy, too).

Good Conservative Republicans Brooks and Sullivan are on the Obama bandwagon. Meanwhile, Obama's fan base vilifies Krugman. What's wrong with this picture?

But wait! Vote for Obama because he is a great mythologizer!

Bush ran as a compassionate conservative in 2000, right? That was very helpful for liberals during his administration because he had already conceded the validity of the liberal position on most issues.

Color me unimpressed with the "we can't win with a hello kitty pencil case" arguments. Wasn't Krugman the one who pointed out that Republicans who supported Bush generally didn't realize how radical his actual policy positions were? Meanwhile I'm still looking for anything in Clinton's or Edwards's records that suggest that they'll be more genuinely progressive than Obama.

Who the hell is this Krugman guy?

Babar burbles:


Bush ran as a compassionate conservative in 2000, right? That was very helpful for liberals during his administration because he had already conceded the validity of the liberal position on most issues.

Wow. Awesome.

Lambert,
I guess you need to review books written on the Progressive era and the new deal to understand the old saying, which is a cornerstone of liberal philosophy. Although there was a struggle to enact the various programs, but there was always a belief once these programs are enacted then people will eventually support them. We see that with social security and minimum wage.These programs have succeeded because they appeal to people's sense of fairness. I don't see how mandates appeal to people sense of fairness.

As for Obama's rhetoric, I think the problem is that in terms of attracting conservatives and moderates, it is smart, but in terms of keeping libera ases, it is not so smart.While I don't doubt that he is progressive, I think that he needs to emphasize how liberalism has brought progress to this country.

It has become personal to Krugman (IMO because the Obama Campaign had the audacity to respond to his first salvo. How dare they!)

But read this article on the issue of mandates:
http://www.pollster.com/blogs/globeunh_on_healthcare_mandate.php

Lambert: what's truly awesome is your inability to recognize sarcasm, and to see how my comment fits in to the discussion in this thread. Pretty awesome!

marcj:

Getting the right "attitude" comes before strategy, right? What Lincoln said of Grant -- "I can't spare this man; he fights." That's the attitude I want. As opposed to George "Hello Kitty Pencil Case" McClellan. Not that I'm saying Obama's a McClellan, just that kumbaya can't possibly be the right attitude. Remember what happened when Clinton came in? The Republican attack was ferocious, and culminated in what was, essentially, a slow-moving, media-fuelled coup that began with Whitewater and ended with Florida 2000. Now, the Republicans may have lost a lot of popular support since then, but institutionally they are as strong as ever, if not stronger (see, again, the 110th Congress and my description of the layered Republican architecture above) and so the attack will be even more vicious. And again, we tried kumbaya in the 100th Congress -- of which, I might add, Obama was a member (though not present for the FISA filibuster, alas). Pelosi and Reid flopped miserably. Why would we do the same thing with the Presidency and expect a different result? First, let's agree on the attitude needed. Then we can talk about strategy two years out.

MGJ:

Personally, I support Medicare for All, single payer. So the whole mandate argument leaves me cold to begin with. I didn't ask my question precisely enough, my bad. What I should have asked for was a historical example of "build it they will come" for a social insurance program. Maybe you can supply one? For example, Social Security was not a "build it and they will come" program at all. Participation is not voluntary. Thanks for explaining my "needs" to me, though. I wasn't aware.

Barbar:

So the point of your sarcasm (irony?) would be... what? That Obama's positions are far more radical than they appeared? Like Bush's? I do confess that if that's what you meant, it was w-a-a-a-y over my head. Or is your point that winning with a Hello Kitty pencil case really is the strategy of choice for progressives? Enlighten me please.

Oh, and Merry Christmas, all ;-)

Now I certainly agree that if all of us keep absolutely silent about about Obama's potential "weaknesses" neither Karl Rove nor any of his friends will ever discover them. This makes me feel so guilty!---but maybe we'll get lucky and none of the Republican consultants will ever read Matt's blog.

And in the interests of proving my non-racist motivations, I'd be the first to suggest that we replace Obama as nominee with another young black Democrat, but one with far greater political experience and almost none of Obama's huge personal vulnerabilities. Such strengths allowed this fellow to overcome a nasty Republican campaign and win a landslide victory in his race during the Democratic blow-out year of 2006.

Yes, I'm talking about Sen. Harold "Fancy" Ford (D-Tennessee)...

Who the hell is this Krugman guy? (Ron @ 12:27 pm)

Here is an answer for you.

An academic economist (well respected for his academic work) and current New York Times op-ed columnist, with a commendable leaning to some progressive causes, who is, unfortunately, lately afflicted with what Lenin called “an infantile disorder”.

In the past few weeks he has been using the megaphone of the New York Times cynically to promote the interests of his favorite candidate, John Edwards, by a volley of ad-hominem attacks against Obama for his supposed “lack of understanding” of the presumed need for “bitter confrontation” in politics, for “living in a fantasy world”, for “echoing right-wing talking points”, for being “naïve”, “unrealistic”, and an “anti-change candidate”, and lately for supposedly undermining the noble history of the trade union movement.

For these feckless and grandiose political insights (some would say, the result of a bruised ego), gleaned from sitting in the charmed environment of his chair at Princeton, this gentleman has now made himself the wisest oracle of the 21st century conveying ultimate truths to those who can be seen here paying him homage.


Justin X, je repete:


Good Conservative Republicans Brooks and Sullivan are on the Obama bandwagon. Meanwhile, Obama's fan base vilifies Krugman. What's wrong with this picture?

Of course, Brooks and Bareback Andy do sing kumbaya beautifully. Until it comes time to slip the knife in, of course.

Lambert -- it's really that hard? Conciliatory rhetoric has nothing to do with conciliatory politics. That was my point. What good did "compassionate conservatism" do liberals? I don't know if you know this, but Bush was running as a member of the Republican Party in 2000 (he was opposing the Democrats). Saying he was a compassionate conservative was a way of reaching out to liberals and moderates.

The policy positions on social security and universal health care are a different story -- but this has nothing to do with singing kumbayah.

I see. Babar:


Conciliatory rhetoric has nothing to do with conciliatory politics.

Well, OK, you can put that theory forward.

At a micro level, what you're really saying is that Obama's using the same rhetorical tactics Bush did. I'm not sure how that fits in with the other theme that Obama's fan base pushes, his mad rhetorical skillz. Because if what you say is true, and what they say is also true, Obama's wonderful speeches are indeed vacuous. (Conflict free is content free.)

And if Obama is indeed using the same tactics Bush used -- and isn't that what originally made Obama's fan base so crazy, the suggestion that he was using right wing memes, but now, apparently, it's OK- -- that doesn't make me more enthusiastic about him, that's for sure.

And I distrust what I call "The Phonebooth Theory" -- the idea that a candidate, once elected, is going to duck into a phonebooth, ditch the Clark Kent glasses, and turn into a Progressive Superman. Na ga happen.

In short, I believe that Obama genuinely is singing kumbaya, and that even if this is a recipe for success in the general (and I think structural shifts are far more important) it's a recipe for policy failure when governing. Scott says it better than I did:


I don't think that a rhetoric of strategy of sweet reasonableness is going to cut it in terms of fighting them. Call it a bargaining table or dinner table, call the President the neutral arbiter or what have you, eventually a Democratic President is going to have to fight these guys, either on his/her own initiative or because they attack him and force him to. I prefer the former, and I'm afraid that Obama prefers his posture of above-the-fray awesomeness to doing that.

Oh for Chrissakes! This is what's really pissing me off right now, when people use incredibly untrue premises, one after another, to contrive even more and further extravagant untrue premises. Let's start with RKU's bullshit pile:
We're talking about a black guy named Barak Hussein Obama, an admitted former cocaine user whose father was a polygamous African Muslim.

His father was an atheist, actually. I don't know what you have to say he was polygamous, but the man was a Harvard grad and an executive with Royal Dutch Shell.

On the ideological front, once he arrived in DC, he pointed to Joe Lieberman as his personal political mentor, has brought on board the Social Security "reform" people, and is now allegedly running "Harry and Louise" style commercials attacking Edwards' medical care proposals in Iowa.

Um, Obama never pointed to Joe Lieberman as his mentor. He supports raising the cap but is absolutely opposed to any sort of privatization. Obama isn't running any sort of ads on healthcare right now. The only people running negative ads right now are Hillary and Edwards, who have made AFSCME go back on their previous opposition to mandates, for which they have rightly been called out as hypocrites by their Iowa and Illinois chapters.

I mean, isn't it amazing how, taking bullshit premise after bullshit premise, completely manufacturing things that just aren't true, you can actually sound convincing? Seriously, if all these so-called progressives did that to Edwards or Hillary, their case would be far more convincing because it would have a basis in fact.

Let's move on to Lou, who takes his bullshit straight from Joe Wilson's hit piece in the Huffington Post:
Questions about Senator Obama's shocking dearth of international experience: doubts over Barack Obama's foreign policy credentials were expressed, after it emerged he had made only one brief official visit to London - and none elsewhere in Western Europe or Latin America. Obama failed to convene a single policy meeting of the Senate European subcommittee, of which he is chairman.

This is sheer idiocy on the part of Wilson, whose argument boils down to making the ridiculous analogy that Obama=Bush, Bush bad, Obama bad. I would point out that Bush's problem wasn't that he was inexperienced. Bush's problem was that he surrounded himself with nutbags whose foreign policy agenda was straight out of Tom Clancy.

Obama has made official visits to over 30 countries. He's met with Tony Blair 3 times. He's on the Foreign Relations Committee, the Veterans Affairs Committee, and the Homeland Security Committee. He has an Ivy League degree, magna cum laude, in International Relations. He has a crapload more foreign policy experience than Bill Clinton, Reagan, or any of the current crop of Republicans aside from McCain. Seriously, name one Republican not named McCain(or Hunter, technically speaking) who has more foreign policy experience than Obama. Oh, right. You can't.

On the issue of Krugman: I don't give a damn about his prior credibility. When you turn yourself into a hack, using hack arguments based on a very loose interpretation of facts along with projection bias and personal antipathy, you've basically destroyed your own credibility. Krugman is really not doing himself any favors right now and his best option, if he wants to keep any credibility, is to STFU.

What angers me about Krugman is the same thing angering me about everybody in the blogosphere who's bashing Obama. They aren't averse to just straight making shit up when it suits them. In just two posts we saw how effectively Obama-bashers have used disinformation to attack him on things that simply have no basis in fact. This is disturbing. Democrats shouldn't spread disinformation about other Democrats, but not only is the Clinton campaign doing that, many people in the blogosphere are doing that as well. Sad, very sad.

Noam Scheiber writes at http://blogs.tnr.com/tnr/blogs/the_stump/archive/2007/12/23/obama-and-the-working-class.aspx:

"I don't have much to add to what others have said, but you really should read this excellent Mark Schmitt piece about Obama and his 'theory of change (http://www.prospect.org/cs/articles?article=the_theory_of_change_primary).'

"Mark Blumenthal examined (http://www.pollster.com/blogs/globeunh_on_healthcare_mandate.php) the crosstabs and made this fascinating discovery:

Opposition to the notion of an individual health
insurance mandate -- "should individuals be required to
buy health insurance" -- is greatest among the less well-
educated and downscale voters that are the core of Clinton's
base in New Hampshire and elsewhere.

Whenever he gets asked about the mandate, Obama says the reason people don't buy health insurance isn't because they don't want it, but because they can't afford it. Whatever the policy merits of this claim--and I'm sympathetic to some of the criticism--it does look like it resonates with working-class people, who may worry about being forced to buy something they can't afford (or being fined if they don't buy it).

I think it's hard to overstate the importance of this. Healthcare is, if not the most important issue of the campaign, then arguably most important issue on which the candidates have real differences. And, as Mark says, working class people are supposed to be Hillary's base. If Hillary's base prefers Obama's solution to what they see as their biggest problem... well, you get the idea."

Abe, a defense like yours tells me definitely not to vote for Barack Obama. Glad Obama's met with Tony Blair though. Three times! Wow. I would have voted for Obama up to about 2 weeks ago, but no longer and you defense was about the last decision maker I needed.

[Caveat that I will happily work for Obama in the general, as against any mullah-sucking billionaire-teabagging torture-loving pus-encrusted spawn of Cthulhu on the Republican side, bless their hearts.]

Je repete, encore:


Good Conservative Republicans Brooks and Sullivan are on the Obama bandwagon. Meanwhile, Obama's fan base vilifies Krugman. What's wrong with this picture?

And what is Krugman's sin? That he pointed out that Obama, by re-opening the Pandora's box -- which progressives had shut with two years of labor -- of the Social Security "crisis," Obama was adopting right wing talking points.

This is, in fact, true.

So it looks to me like Krugman's sin was being right.

Because apparently, the only sin is not to support teh awesomeness of Obama, since real winger shills like Brooks and Sullivan get a pass from the fan base. Heck, Babar isn't even saying Obama's using winger memes, he's saying Obama's adopted Bush's entire rhetorical strategy, and this goes by without a comment.

Atrios had the right of it:


Obama says the system's corrupt but that it'll melt before my sheer awesomeness and eloquence.

Or not.

Lambert, characterizing "conciliatory rhetoric" as a right-wing meme is unfair. If the Democrats played serious hardball and tried to beat the Republican Party into submission, would you dismiss this as a right-wing tactic?

Bush's compassionate conservatism was smart politics, not (just) an evil right-wing tactic. It allowed more voters to (erroneously) assume that Bush shared their values.

You jump to the conclusion that rhetoric is content-free and vacuous and that this means that Obama is an empty suit (or worse a right-wing operative in disguise). But this is extraordinarily unfair. When you embrace conflict politics, do you really think it's a matter of 52% of the population imposing its will on the other 48%, for the sake of the common good? Do you really think universal health care will only benefit Democrats? No, you think that universal health care will benefit almost everyone. And yet Republican voters will vote for Republican politicians who will strongly oppose it. The Republican party commands their votes because of the *rhetoric* they use. (Unless you think that everyone simply votes for their own interests, and rhetoric is irrelevant, in which case the appeal of universal health care is not actually all that universal.)

Now I don't agree with the Phonebooth Theory either. You can't just assume that anyone is a real progressive just because you want it to be true. Of course you can't know for sure how anyone will govern before they get elected. You have to make a guess based on a range of evidence: biography, past decisions, campaign rhetoric, party affiliation, advisors, key supporters, and so on.

But color me unimpressed with the idea that Obama's broad-based rhetorical appeal is some sort of reason that I shouldn't like him, and that it makes him naive and foolish. Looks a lot more like an asset to me. I'm more open to the idea that his policy pronouncements on Social Security and UHC are troubling, but this has nothing to do with naivete and singing kumbaya.

Abe writes:


What angers me about Krugman is the same thing angering me about everybody in the blogosphere who's bashing Obama. They aren't averse to just straight making shit up when it suits them.

Abe, should I take that personally? Or when you wrote "everybody" did you not mean, well, everybody?

[Unios are] a vital check on what would otherwise be corporate influence run amok.

'Otherwise'?? Surely you jest, MY. If what we are soaking in right now is not 'corporate influence run amok', I don't know what it would be like. I was wondering if you were being ironic...

[Unios are] a vital check on what would otherwise be corporate influence run amok.

'Otherwise'?? Surely you jest, MY. If what we are soaking in right now is not 'corporate influence run amok', I don't know what it would be like. I was wondering if you were being ironic...

And what is Krugman's sin? That he pointed out that Obama, by re-opening the Pandora's box -- which progressives had shut with two years of labor -- of the Social Security "crisis," Obama was adopting right wing talking points. This is, in fact, true. So it looks to me like Krugman's sin was being right.

Look, he used the word "crisis" ONE FRICKIN TIME.
Obama Refers To "Social Security Crisis"

One time. One interview. Aside from that, he's consistently said A)social security is not in crisis and B) he vehemently opposed to any sort of privatization and C) to fix the real, actuarial problem, he wants to raise taxes on the top 6%(who Clinton dubbed "the middle class").

So there you go. He used the word crisis one time and Krugman feels the need to bash him over the head for it. Look, I don't know if that one time was a slip-up or a gaffe, but it's entirely inconsistent with Obama's longstanding rhetoric on the matter. And again, people, ONE FRICKIN TIME. If we're going to attack people for using one word, one time, than we have reached a level of nonsensical orthodoxy even the Republicans can't match. That's my problem with Krugman: he takes one word out of context and tries to make this whole big stink about it. Actually, he isn't just trying, because now all these idiots who don't check their facts(see my previous post) think that Obama is "co-opting right-wing talking points" strictly because Krugman said so. And again, on mandates, ONE FRICKIN THING and that gets spun as well. All of a sudden, the most progressive candidate of the top 3 is being cast as the "Republican appeaser". Um, no. That's pure propaganda.

Obama is, was, and probably always will be as if not more progressive than Hillary Clinton or John Edwards. Why? Because Obama didn't suddenly find religion(actually he did in his 20's, but anyways :D). That's what is so insane about hearing people repeat this drivel.

Abe,

What a relief to hear that Obama doesn't echo Republican talking points. It must have been a different fellow who said:

“‘What role does faith play?’ I say, ‘It plays every role.’”
and...
Our failure as progressives to tap into the moral underpinnings of the nation is not just rhetorical. Our fear of getting “preachy” may also lead us to discount the role that values and culture play in some of our most urgent social problems.
and, about our troops who are dying in vain in Iraq, because smarmy politicians won't admit they're dying in vain...
“Their sacrifices are never wasted.”

Lambert,

Participation in Social Security is not voluntary but people know what to expect. Before the program was first instituted the gov't had to sell it to the people. People then accepted what the program entailed. All that I'm saying if you can reason with people via internet, mailers, etc., and show the benefits of the insurance program. I think we need to give the American people more credit than we give them. In that regard, I don't think that a mandate is really necessary.

Again, way to quote out of context an article that itself quotes out of context what Obama says in regards to his own religious beliefs. I don't understand how an expression of one's own religious beliefs(inside a church, actually) is a "right-wing talking point".

But again, you are further illustrating my point that Obama bashers are willing to quote out of context, parse, and failing that, make shit up. And by the way, Obama is right. Democrats do fail to appeal to people's values. When parsing and distorting and nit-picking policy details becomes a valuable trait, you understand why Democrats like John Kerry lose, despite the obvious moral authority they would and should be able to wield if they were half as competent or half as bold at winning elections as Republicans have shown themselves to be.

All this is to say, "Democrats. . . why do you eat your own? Seriously, this self-destruction isn't helping."

Oh good lord. "Faith plays every role" and the military's "sacrifices are never wasted." Yes, we would never want a smooth politician to run for President.

I'm about as hardcore an atheist as there is, and pretty damn anti-war, and I have no problem with what Obama said. There are a lot of voters who like to hear that their faith is important and should be respected and there are a lot of voters who don't like to hear the uncomfortable truth that military lives can be wasted. How is this important?

Meanwhile, I've been doing some reading on health care mandates, and I see no reason to think that it's some sort of clear-cut litmus test that distinguishes true progressives from false ones. Dan Kervick's comment in this thread is quite germane. If Obama supported mandates I suspect this could easily be interpreted as further evidence that he is in the thrall of the Republican Party and insurance companies.

Abe, for the entire campaign, Obama has conflated religion with values and morals.

Apparently, any context that isn't unconditional love for your favorite candidate qualifies as "out of context."

If I were you, I'd make sure you can still fog a mirror ("they only see what they want to see").

Gawrsh it's tiresome, all the willful disregard of the real problem with Obama's use of the faith card.

The problem isn't whether he's "a person of faith." The problem is that his brand of public faith fluffs up the Republican straw man that says Democrats (except the noble, holy Barack) are deficient on matters of moral values.

That's why you don't hear me carping about Jimmy Carter's brand of evangelical Christianity. He's entitled to believe whatever silly stuff he wants, and he makes me feel entitled not to believe it and not to be thrown under a bus by a "smooth politician."

As long as we're quoting from Obama's "Call to Renewal" Keynote Address, let me quote some relevant passages:
And I speak with some experience on this matter. I was not raised in a particularly religious household, as undoubtedly many in the audience were. My father, who returned to Kenya when I was just two, was born Muslim but as an adult became an atheist. My mother, whose parents were non-practicing Baptists and Methodists, was probably one of the most spiritual and kindest people I've ever known, but grew up with a healthy skepticism of organized religion herself. As a consequence, so did I.
. . .
I am not suggesting that every progressive suddenly latch on to religious terminology - that can be dangerous. Nothing is more transparent than inauthentic expressions of faith. As Jim has mentioned, some politicians come and clap -- off rhythm -- to the choir. We don't need that. In fact, because I do not believe that religious people have a monopoly on morality, I would rather have someone who is grounded in morality and ethics, and who is also secular, affirm their morality and ethics and values without pretending that they're something they're not. They don't need to do that. None of us need to do that.
. . .
Moreover, given the increasing diversity of America's population, the dangers of sectarianism have never been greater. Whatever we once were, we are no longer just a Christian nation; we are also a Jewish nation, a Muslim nation, a Buddhist nation, a Hindu nation, and a nation of nonbelievers.

And even if we did have only Christians in our midst, if we expelled every non-Christian from the United States of America, whose Christianity would we teach in the schools? Would we go with James Dobson's, or Al Sharpton's? Which passages of Scripture should guide our public policy? Should we go with Leviticus, which suggests slavery is ok and that eating shellfish is abomination? How about Deuteronomy, which suggests stoning your child if he strays from the faith? Or should we just stick to the Sermon on the Mount - a passage that is so radical that it's doubtful that our own Defense Department would survive its application?

Last paragraph was part of the quote. Closed italics too early there.

Vast Left -- please, this is a silly wedge issue and I don't see how Obama is handling it worse than other Democrats.

The right-wing talking point that the Democrats are weak on faith is already out there. It's not going to go away if he speaks differently. He's not doing serious damage by talking about respecting faith.

Meanwhile Hillary Clinton says that there must be room for religious people to "live out their faith in the public sphere," and she is a big proponent of government faith-based initiatives. Now that's putting money where your mouth is.

It's dispiriting to see how quickly and vitriolically some people turn on Krugman, a long-standing progressive hero, when he has the temerity to criticise Obama. Krugman's arguments about Obama are well-founded IMO, yet he's being denounced as a bad-faith commentator, and worse, and much of it is mindless abuse.

The Obama personality cult that's been rampaging from one corner of the blogosphere to the other the last few months merrily shooting messengers is doing him no service whatsoever.

Shorter Bentley: Krugman is God. Obama is the head of a "cult". Because I say so.

No, I'll tell you what's cult-like: Devoting your column space 5 times in a row to not merely attack one single candidate but attempt to personally divine what that candidate is actually thinking or would think a year in the future based on nothing but projection bias and equivocation fallacy and then further to use those fallacious projections to draw fallacious ad-hominem conclusions such as "Obama is the anti-change candidate" and "Obama just isn't serious about healthcare".

What's further cult-like is to then herd naive morons into enshrining you as a progressive God who's infallible word must be considered credible even when you repeatedly utilize fallacies in your repeated bashings of the aforementioned singular candidate who is suspiciously rising in the polls just as said bashing commences, calling into question your own motivations which I would speculate on but am not so shameful as to engage in the same said projection fallacies that Mr. Krugman does himself.

Does that answer your question?

Abe, you keep driving me further away from Barack Obama with your ravings. I trust Paul Krugman completely, and it is Obama who needs to explain himself on Social Security and health care not Krugman. The more you rave about Krugman, the more right I know he is. Rave on.

I am not interested in a conservative Obama.

Attacking Krugman is a stupid mistake - like attacking Molly Ivins would be. Why are the Obama guys being so stupid? Krugman has been far ahead of Obama for years and Obama should be learning from him.

No, Jennifer, what's a stupid mistake is trying to enshrine a person irrespective of that person's actions. That's typically known as "idolatry" and "anti-intellectualism".

You don't win an argument by refusing to argue with it.

Abe,

Your response to Jennifer is a perfect description of your position re: Obama:

...what's a stupid mistake is trying to enshrine a person irrespective of that person's actions. That's typically known as "idolatry" and "anti-intellectualism".

You don't win an argument by refusing to argue with it.

Barbar,

Thanks for letting me know that the increasing blurring of church and state is a silly wedge issue, and the adoption of "I'm godlier than you are" rhetoric on the part of leading Democrats is nothing to worry about.

I'll get the word out to Jimmy Carter, John Danforth, Kevin Phillips, David Kuo, and Pete Stark that all is well.

Well, on the policy side, I tend to put an awful lot of weight into Krugman's views, which have been dead-on correct for quite a number of years now. And I'd be the first to admit I'd much prefer an Obama Presidency to a Hillary Presidency. But politics is the art of actually getting there, so I'll add just two more points in that regard.

(1) Remember, Obama has only run one serious political campaign in his life, against Alan Keyes who had zero dollars for advertising. Unless I'm mistaken, Obama may well be the only member of the U.S. Senate who's never faced even a single negative television spot in his entire career. Maybe that's why his current unfavorables are pretty good. Of course, there's a chance he'll get lucky and the Republicans will decide not to run any attack ads against him during the entire 2008 campaign...

(2) Let's suppose you’re a Democratic Party operative in 1944 during the Second World War. The Republicans pick as their Presidential nominee a young and well-spoken political newcomer named Adolf Hissler, whose father was an immigrant from Germany. What's your reaction? I suppose I'm just revealing my deep-seated anti-Germanic bigotry by even asking such vile questions...

Didn't Matt used to have some sort of banner proclaiming his blogsite as part of the "Reality-Based Community"?

Krugman has been far ahead of Obama for years and Obama should be learning from him.

Here you have the essence of the petulant arrogance that Krugman continues to emit in his attack on Obama and is transmitted to and by his acolytes.

Evidently, the deep source of the animus they express comes from the assumed temerity of Obama in failing to accept the supposed ultimate truths taught by the great master himself and, worse, his uppitiness (yes, that word, with all its connotations) in forcefully and reasonably responding to the master by quoting from his own words.

What is notable about all this is that, except for that one “fact check” response by the Obama campaign, the candidate himself has wisely refrained from taking the bait to get into a p***ing match with the master, preferring instead to dismiss all of these barbs as “the silly season”. This must therefore be terribly infuriating, making it necessary to become more desperate and shrill.

Vast Left: Yes, and as I've pointed out before, Obama's legislative accomplishments of the last 2-3 years far outstrip both HRC or Edwards', the first of whom has passed nothing but ceremonial bills, the latter having no original bills to his credit.

What makes these pronouncements of "Obama is an empty suit" so ridiculous is that, in terms of actual substance, neither Hillary nor Edwards has accomplished anything close to what Obama has. Obama has authored and passed bills to lock down loose nuclear weapons in the former Soviet Union, ban gifts, meals, and corporate jets from lobbyists, require all bundlers be diclosed, put every item of legislation into a searchable database anyone can access, as well as blocking the nomination of the voting rights opponent Spakovski to the FEC.

So yes, I am judging Obama based on his actions. And his actions show that, of the top 3, he's the only one who can point to any actual success in pushing his agenda forward. That's a claim that, based on their record, Hillary and Edwards cannot(or shouldn't, anyway) make. Interestingly though, Hillary has called herself a "doer, not a talker", which begs the question of what she's ever actually done. Can anybody name one relevant bill that she authored and got passed?

I should also note that for all the expert status he's being accorded, Paul Krugman is not a politician and hasn't passed a bill in his life. So to believe he who has never passed a bill in his life over a career policy-wonk/negotiator(Obama) is stupid. Come to think of it, we can very easily extend this same point of argumentation to believing the words of a former First Lady or a trial lawyer, neither of whom have any substantial record of accomplishment to their names. I mean, why should we listen to them over a career policy wonk/negotiator whose actually gotten stuff done? (Including, incidentally, giving healthcare to 125,000 Illinoisans. Krugman's never done that, has he?)

It's amazing how, when you actually consider the facts, Krugman, Clinton, and Edwards seem less and less credible.

Would that this honest analysis could set the tone for ALL media input from here on in. Mr. Krugman has been relentless and so unprofessional. Now maybe Mr. Clinton can muster up some grace and campaign for his wife with dignity befitting a former president. I still oppose the PAC ads, no matter who they are supporting.

Abe,

It's exactly the kind of petulant, and personal, diatribes that you've indulged in on this thread that I had in mind when I mentioned the Obama personality cult. Fact is, you employ the very ad hominem attacks and fallacious projection you attribute to Krugman. You may not agree with Krugman's arguments, but his reasons for thinking what he thinks are there for all to see. He has never obfuscated the reasons for his disagreements with Obama.

Krugman supports mandates, for reasons that he has described several times, and which most experts on health care seem to agree with. Furthermore, he thinks the arguments Obama has employed against mandates make it more difficult politically for ANY of the Democrats to implement them and achieve something approaching universal coverage. This was the first front in his disagreement with Obama.

Then Obama's people selectively quoted Krugman in order to make his appraisal of Obama's health care policy seem inconsistent, when in fact it wasn't. Krugman noted this.

Krugman has recently questioned whether Obama's comments re the pro-Edwards 527s is wise for someone campaigning for the Democratic nomination, someone who, if he wins said nomination, will presumably have similar sorts of 527s weighing in on his side.

Now, you may disagree with Krugman's arguments, but I see no reason to suggest that they are made in anything but good faith. You, and many of your fellow cultists, prefer not to argue but to indulge in crass, adolescent invective against Krugman and anyone who agrees with him, just as you have in this thread.

Do you really think that convinces anyone of the substance of your case?

Justin X,

You're scraping the bottom of the barrel if you're attributing racist motivations to Krugman and those who happen to agree with him in his debates with the Obama camp. If you think Krugman is wrong about mandates, say so, and tell us why. If you think he's wrong about the 527s, do the same. If you think Krugman is wrong in criticising Obama for using the term 'crisis' to talk about social security, then enlighten us.

Because accusing people of racism is just an attempt to slur the other side of the debate into silence, and it's a despicable tactic.

Living Color will reunite to perform their 1989 Grammy winning song at the Obama inauguration.

Obnama is wrong on Social Security and wrong on moving to universl health care. Obama ideas would undermine support for Social Security and make universal health care impossible. But, the cultish creeps attack Paul Krugman. Attack Arnold Schwarzenegger who knows what universal health care will take. The more the attacks on Krugman, the more I know what phonies the Obama cultists are.

Bentley, nice try, but like Krugman you are parsing and selectively representing the arguments not the way they were originally posed but in a strawman fashion that isn't the way they were proposed.

Re: healthcare, Obama is opposed to mandates as a starting point, not an ending point. He said mandates only become feasible once costs are already down, since it doesn't make practical sense to mandate people buy what they can't afford, regardless of what other half-measures you institute. Krugman didn't represent Obama's argument this way. Krugman was distorting Obama's actual position, which is in favor of mandates once the costs are brought down to a reasonable level. Krugman also failed to mention Obama's argument that a mandate requires an enforcement mechanism otherwise it is not a mandate and it perpetually undermines the mandate by allowing it to go unenforced.

Regarding 527s the issue wasn't with 527s in general, as Krugman misrepresented. The issue was that a high-ranking official of the Edwards campaign left the campaign and started running negative ads against Obama with his own 527 group that also happened to be union-affiliated. This would be fine, except for the fact that Edwards himself has been attacking these 527s as special interests and ends up staying silent when one of them is being used on his behalf(unlike Obama, who earlier this year repudiated Vote Hope even though they supported him). And btw, Edwards did eventually cave and repudiate this particular 527. I think it's fair to say Obama won that fight.

Regarding SS, Obama used the word "crisis" once and just once. Big deal. Go cry to somebody who gives a crap about your frame-copping message-nazi agenda. Otherwise, STFU. (And yes, I do think all message-nazis and purity trolls like Krugman should do that.)

Abe, you become crazier with each response and you were tending to be crazy from the beginning. Paul Krugman simply pointed out policy problems that Obama could easily have corrected. But, supporters like you decided to attack and go crazy in attacking.

Stop being so crazy, Abe, because you are hurting Obama. Krugman was right. Obama needs to show he can learn. I m just waiting for the learning.

Nice ad hominem. Call people who disagree with you crazy. I directly addressed the issues that were raised. You have yet to rebut them. So please, quit trolling and address the arguments if you want to be taken seriously.

Speaking of which, I think calling anybody a racist for criticizing Obama is pretty stupid(regardless of whether its true) because it opens up the whole race card can of worms. It's like tossing someone a stick so they can beat you with it. And I thought I read somewhere that Krugman is married to a AA woman.

Racist? No. Using faulty arguments based on faulty premises to come up with faulty conclusions? Yes.

1) Remember, Obama has only run one serious political campaign in his life, against Alan Keyes who had zero dollars for advertising. Unless I'm mistaken, Obama may well be the only member of the U.S. Senate who's never faced even a single negative television spot in his entire career. Maybe that's why his current unfavorables are pretty good. Of course, there's a chance he'll get lucky and the Republicans will decide not to run any attack ads against him during the entire 2008 campaign...

So then why is he beating Hillary in Iowa? Maybe b/c she just ran one easy campaign in New York....

(2) Let's suppose you’re a Democratic Party operative in 1944 during the Second World War. The Republicans pick as their Presidential nominee a young and well-spoken political newcomer named Adolf Hissler, whose father was an immigrant from Germany. What's your reaction? I suppose I'm just revealing my deep-seated anti-Germanic bigotry by even asking such vile questions...

My sense is that you give the voters too much credit (and too little). They don't care about Osama and Saddam as much as you think, so your analogy with Hitler is off. It's mostly local.

Two, non-white candidates have been elected to public office at numerous levels and places across the country so why not the Presidency? You may be right and the country may still be too racist, but why not give it a shot? Why spread the fear?

Abe,

As you ought to know, the point about Obama not having mandates but at the same time not allowing insurance companies to reject coverage of people with preexisting conditions is that many who are young and healthy will opt out of coverage altogether until they need it. This will raise the cost of coverage for those don't fall into this category, thus further discouraging people from taking out coverage, which then feeds into a self-perpetuating price spiral. That's why people like Krugman and Klein support those policies that have a combination of mandates and subsidies. It makes no sense for Obama to say he'll get prices down first, then look at implementing mandates, when the key price suppression mechanism is a combination of subsidies and mandates from the start.

As for Obama using the word crisis -- however many times he said it -- that would be less of a concern if it weren't part of an overall rhetorical pattern of him validating anti-progressive positions.

Finally, your STFUing neatly summarizes my problem with you and your fellow cultists. If now, the business end of a primary campaign, isn't the time for argument with, and criticism of, Barack Obama, then when can he be criticised?

STFU indeed.


Comments closed January 07, 2008.

Copyright © 2008 by The Atlantic Monthly Group. All rights reserved.