« The Reminder | Main | Two Ways of Looking at Fuel Efficiency »

Krugman Versus Obama, Cont.

24 Dec 2007 12:22 pm

Ezra Klein, who's much more sympathetic to the anti-Obama cause than I am, says much of what needs to be said about Paul Krugman's overreaching effort to paint Barack Obama as an anti-union candidate. But a few additional observations:

One: This kind of thing is why I'll be glad when this primary race is over. The nominating contest creates large incentives to overstate one's case. In retrospect, I think I've been guilty of this with regard to Hillary Clinton. I prefer other candidates on foreign policy grounds. That's not to say, however, that she'll be the second coming of George W. Bush which I think I've wrongly implied in the past due to over-investment in some internecine disputes. Similarly, it's one thing to say that you prefer Edward's and Clinton's views on health care and Social Security but that's a far cry from Obama deserving the label of an "anti-change" candidate.

Two: John Edwards is clearly the most pro-labor candidate in this race. If I were a single-issue voter, this election wouldn't be a close call. And it's really too bad that more unions didn't line up behind Edwards. Instead, many shied away from him on the theory that he was doomed to lose and that Clinton was inevitable. That, of course, has something of a self-fulfilling prophesy dynamic to it and created problems for Edwards in terms of fundraising and national press. Now, as a non-supporter of Clinton with strong Edwards sympathies, I'm worried that an Edwards win in Iowa just leads to a Clinton victory; whereas an Obama win in Iowa leads to an Obama victory. Had the unions all just lined up behind the most pro-labor candidate in the field, I don't think we would have that problem.

Three: I don't see any need for liberal pundits to get in the business of denying that labor unions are, in fact, "special interests." Indeed, it's impossible to understand the dynamics of American politics without acknowledging them to be special interests. They're special interests who sometimes take the "wrong" side of policy debates when what's "right" for the country is "wrong" for the sector in which they work. The CWA often takes bad positions on telecommunications issues because it wants to advance the interests of unionized telecom firm vis-a-vis the interests of non-union firms. Similarly, various unions have in the past clashed with environmental groups and will certainly do so again in the context of a serious push to curb carbon emissions. There's nothing wrong with that, and liberals should strongly resist the line of inference from "unions are sometimes wrong on public policy questions, therefore we should embrace policies designed to hasten the decline of union membership." But still, unions are groups that seek to advance the interests of their members. As such, they're a vital check on what would otherwise be corporate influence run amok. But sometimes the interests of a given union's members run against the general interests of the country and there's no sense in denying this.

To return to point one, though, the whole Krugman-Obama feud started over the issue of health insurance mandates. If you think that electing a president who favors an Edwards/Clinton-style individual mandate is likely to lead to a better substantive policy outcome than is electing an opponent of such a mandate, then this constitutes a perfectly good reason all on its own to vote for Edwards or Clinton rather than Obama. It's an important issue! There's not really any need to drag additional implausible charges into the mix.

UPDATE: "On health care, Obama is consistently running to the right of his rivals" is a much more accurate characterization of the complaint. I don't think the legislative prospects for a really awesome health care plan in 2009 are very good no matter who wins the election, so I don't find this reality incredibly distressing. But it's an accurate complaint.

Photo courtesy of John Edwards 2008 used under a Creative Commons license

Share This

Comments (156)

Good post, Matt. Krugman's conclusion was just painful to read. Whatever one thinks about unions, they ARE special interests and to act like they are not is to deny the obvious.

Good points.
I think it's clear by now that this was never so much a Krugman-Obama feud as it was an attempt by Krugman to advocate for his favorite candidate, John Edwards, and bring down his rival in the progressive community, Barack Obama. There's nothing unethical about it I suppose, but it still leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

The problem is that Krugman glosses over some of the not so clear cut back story to these issues.

1. Edwards firmly supported NC's right to work laws when he was in the US Senate. He was also pretty much a free trader while in the Senate too. John Edwards may now be the most pro union candidate, but it does not seem to have always been the case.

2. The SEIU has been stated its opposition to healthcare mandates. They may be opposing Obama, but his healthcare platform is closer to what they advocate in the Union's policy wish list than Clinton or Edwards.

3. Unions are special interests no matter how you cut it. How can you talk against only a certain type of lobbyist or special interest?

If Krugman wants to attack Obama that is one thing. However, he should not pick out the arguments that support his case and ignore those inconvenient truths.

Matt,

Here's my read of the mandate issue. The lack of a mandate won't mean that sick people won't have health insurance. It means they won't get health insurance until they are sick, which would drive up the price for those people who "responsibly" obtain health insurance when they can.

But how much would the cost go up? If I have to anticipate paying an extra $10/month for Obama's plan than the others, but I believe his plan has a much greater chance at becoming law, I really don't see a problem in supporting the "lack of mandate." If it's an extra $1000 per month, then his plan isn't really feasible, and therefore, it's worse than no plan at all.

It's also interesting to note that Krugman -- responding to the analogy that 15% of drivers don't have mandatory auto insurance -- points out that some states have gotten the percentage of non-compliant down to two percent. But the "uninsured" in Obama's plan would be 2-3 percent. And those who are uninsured would still get medical care when they get sick. Is this really worth getting upset over?

I personally do not want mandates. I think they are just too defeating an issue to force people who may not want the coverage.
That said, I think Krugman has lost his mind.
It is one thing to advocate for a candidate you support but, to lose your perspective and use your column just to trash someone rather than write about things that are important is silly.
Krugman is using his column as a one man assualt on Obama. he doesn't like the guy, fine. we get it.
He is supporting Edwards, fine, we get it. But, Krugman is just making himself look like he is off the rail and puts his credibility on the line.

Re labor unions as special interests: our political vocabulary needs a way of distinguishing in people's minds between 'special interests' that are influential due to a combination of popular support, organization, and passion for their cause (labor, gun nuts, fundies), and 'special interests' that are influential far beyond their level of popular support because they have a lot of money, and use it to magnify their influence (big oil, big pharma, etc).

Lumping both kinds of 'special interests' together is fundamentally misleading, IMHO.

Until someone comes up with a better solution, my best answer is that people aren't 'special' interests. This is supposed to be, in Lincoln's words, government of the people, by the people, and for the people. To the extent that people have influence by dint of numbers and enthusiasm, that's what the political process is all about. Such groups should have influence in a democracy; shouldn't be anything special about it.

But when people have influence due to money rather than numbers, that's a special interest.

The lesson of the Conservative Ascendancy over the last 30 years is that "the economy" follows "political economy" and does not lead it.

That is, conditions like flat incomes for everyone but the very wealthy are policy outcomes; they are policy outcomes because the very wealthy set out to destroy all countervailing forces to their own power, and did so. The results are as you see.

Therefore, to see unions as "an interest group" like any other is just.... Silly. Except, of course, to the Villagers.

Krugman, as I see it, like these policy outcomes about as much as I do; that is, not at all.

So, he's doing what a columnist should be doing: Using his column to advocate for the policy outcomes he prefers.

I know this is boring, boring, boring, and people would rather be doing the Inside Baseball thing, or playing the "who's up, who's down" game about their favorite candidate, but Krugman, as ever, is ahead of the curve on the big picture.

Matt,

I really think you miss the point of Krugman's arguments, which while concerned with Obama's rhetoric makes a valid substantive point, one that I'll illustrate here. I agree that liberals shouldn't uncritically back everthing that labor unions want, but we do support them in general ideological terms and view them as our allies. And we do so against conservative opposition that ever since the New Deal has tried to vilify them as "special interests", corrupt bosses dictating to the rest of us. So Obama isn't attacking unions in the 527 flap as "special interests" against a blank slate; he's doing it using the same conservative dog whistle code words that we've faced for over 60 years. Don't you find that rhetoric disturbing? I do. I also find it disturbing that he spends rhetorical energy on a nonexistent Social Security "crisis" that conservatives trumpeted 2 years ago as part of their plan to dismantle Social Security.

I therefore don't find it coincidental that a candidate who spends a lot of his time echoing conservative rhetorical tropes could, as you agree yourself, be running consistently to the right of his rivals. The political rhetoric that candidates use can be an important pointer to where they're coming from ideologically, so I find that Krugman and others who have been troubled by Obama's rhetoric on Social Security, labor, and progressive activism are onto something that you dismiss far too quickly.

LS:

Is your name an Ambassadors reference? If so, very cool!

I think this support of Edwards by Krugman is not going anywhere. The Clintons are going to back. Edwards will not even have a spot in the Cabinet. The media is supporting the Clintons. No one can deny the Clintons their rightful place - The White House. It is their house - yesterday, today, and tomorrow. This is not a democracy. It is a Clintonocracy.

I hope Obama wins. I will fall in love with America again then. It will be a terrific 2008, if Obama wins in IA, NH, and SC.

The complaints from Krugman and his allies about Obama's rhetoric are nothing more than petty sniping.

There was a story over at Daily Kos pointing out that Edwards has talked about a Social Security "crisis" more times than Obama, but Krugman doesn't mention that. In fact, most of the people bringing it up about Obama are Edwards supporters, apparently with no sense of irony.

And with this issue, once again, Krugman is sniping based upon a warped mischaracterization of Obama's comments. If he held Edwards to the same standard, he'd be coming off even worse. Of course, he won't do that because he supports Edwards' populist ideas.

Dumb, stupid, ignorant entry and even dumber comments in the comment section.

Most of Clinton and Obama's support is SOFT EVERYWHERE INCLUDING NEW HAMPSHIRE, regardless of what people say in the polls.

No one is going to say, "OH YEAH, MY SUPPORT IS WEAK." But that's really what they are saying when they say they "COULD CHANGE [THEIR] MIND."

Over 40% in New Hampshire could change their minds.

If Edwards wins Iowa, he will win New Hampshire. Clinton and Obama's support will deflate like an exploding balloon. Edwards will get more than a 10% -- MORE THAN -- bump in New Hampshire, and Clinton and Obama will drop at least 10% -- AT LEAST -- in New Hampshire, simply because they won't look so "INEVITABLE".

Watch. I'll be right, as usual.

Edwards winning Iowa doesn't help Clinton or Obama, and anyone who believes that needs to stop being fooled by Obama's campaign and the television pundits who hate John Edwards.

Live all you can, Scott. It's a mistake not to.

unions a special interest???

when obama says this, isn't he just revealing his sour grapes over this matter? i mean, that man did a whole lot of work to woo the unions as any of the others. now that he doesn't have the union support, he's pushing edwards around about how they are special interests?

when we are talking about special interest groups, we are talking about the funneling of money into a person's campaign thru the back door, esp. using big money donors, not the little folk. the unions get their people out volunteering, canvassing and pledging to vote or caucus for their candidates. i don't see this as the same thing.

as for the 527's, obama is a lawyer, so he should know how the law works--edwards can't talk to these groups, and they can't talk to him. his hands are tied. for a guy who taught constitutional law, he really doesn't seem to know his laws very well.

We really need to move beyond this nonsense that an Edwards win in Iowa helps Clinton or Obama. As someone mentioned before, that is not going to happen. The lack of support for Edwards comes with the media's relentless insinuation that the star power of Clinton and Obama are too much for him to overcome. Rest assured if the popularity of these two candidates (and let's face it much of which is motivated by the aspect of having our first female or Black President) wasn't such a focal point in the news Edwards would've picked up a lot more union support. In fact, the unions showed that they don't have it takes to stand up for the little guy by shying away from Edwards instead of standing behind him and helping him fight his way through these ridiculous polls. I think Hillary Clinton has no chance to win Iowa, and I'm predicting Edwards will win it and Obama will come in a very very close 2nd. That Edwards win in Iowa will add a sense of legitimacy that can propel him forward in NH (where he is 12-15 points behind the leader - very easy to make up with a small surge after an Iowa first place finish) and SC where over 20% of the Democrats in those primaries are undecided.

Mike burbles:


Good post, Matt. Krugman's conclusion was just painful to read. Whatever one thinks about unions, they ARE special interests and to act like they are not is to deny the obvious.

From the perspective of a Villager, or perhaps a DLCer, that might be true.

But from my perspective -- or from the perspective of anyone who wants health care, or a living wage, or not to be fired because it's Tuesday or for whatever other reason may strike the CEO's fancy -- the unions are "special interests" because they're closest to my interests.

See, we have this thing called "politics," which is the field where various competing "special" interests play out, hopefully peacefully. Unforunately for most of us -- though not for the Village -- the field has been radically tilted toward the right, such that most of the right's agenda is not seen as being an "interest" at all. Their interests simply part of the air that we unquestioningly breathe.*

Krugman wants to redress these conditions, and he's right.

That Krugman's big picture/policy outcomes issue is being framed as being "against Hillary" and/or "against Obama" makes me despair not only at the vapidity and cynicism of the Village, but at the even more vacuous wannabe insiderism displayed in so many of these threads.

I sure hope they've got WiFi in the tent cities, because otherwise, I won't be able to blog.

* Which is why rhetoric is important. Winger rhetoric is designed to choke of my oxygen supply, and it has done so very successfully. And if Obama or anyone uses that rhetoric, they choke off my oxygen supply too. New politics my sweet Aunt Fanny.

That's not to say, however, that she'll be the second coming of George W. Bush

On the basis of her closeness of AIPAC & co., HRC is the likeliest of the Democrats to bomb Iran when President, the likeliest to provide cover for W. if he bombs Iran in the run-up to the Nov 2008 vote, and the likeliest to allow Israel to bomb Iran. Don't be lulled by the NIE: Israeli lobby pressure for one of a variety of wars with Iran persists and will continue after 2008. And in the sense that Hillary is the most likely to start another war in the Middle East, HRC may indeed resemble the second coming of George W. Bush.

What hasn't been noted, as far as I have seen -- although it will come as no surprise to anyone who has heard Obama on the stump a few times -- is that Obama is not going for a narrow victory of liberals over conservatives. Obama is going for a mandate. He doesn't want just to win, he wants a landslide.

If he gets what he wants (and I think he will) politics in this country will be transformed a lot quicker than his doubters realize -- much the way Reagan changed everything, virtually overnight, even though his policies didn't take effect for some time.

Obviously, it's far too soon to assume Obama will succeed in his quest. But it's not too soon to point out that the discussion today may well look like hairsplitting tomorrow.

I used to repect Paul Krugman, but he's really going off the deep-end. Unions ARE special interests. They might be special interests that we like more than Big Oil or Big Tobacco, etc. but one of the most fundamental principals of ethics is you don't get to pick and choose. If Edwards says he opposes 527's then he can't accept help from them--even if they are 'friendly' 527's.

The question of 'mandates' is a silly semantic argument put forth by Edwards and parroted by Krugman. A mandate, in the real world, is only as good as the enforcement mechanism. Hillary Clintons plan has no enforcement mechanism and therefore no mandates. She just says her plan has mandates.

Edwards plan, at least, has an enforcement mechanism, but it is hardly "Universal." His enforcement mechanism leaves out anyone who doesn't pay taxes AND/OR anyone who doesn't earn a paycheck that can be garnished--i.e. his so-called 'mandates' leave out the very people who are most likely to opt-out of buying health insurance.

There's not much difference in the amount of people that will be brought in by Edwards plan as compared to Obama's, and Obama's plan will bring in more people than Hillary's plan will.

Every person is a special interest group; stating that unions, as any other organization, have their, and their members, in mind is missing the point. It sounds intelligent but is hardly worth the space it takes.

Unions and the Democratic party are family. The Democrats are a large family: unions, poor, minorities and most of the middle class. Claiming that each of the family members is a special interest group confuses the issue and makes members look like the communication or building industry, which they aren't.

Without the family, Democrats are Rockefeller Republicans, unions in particular.

As for Obama, in my view he is the most right wing of the Democratic candidates, he is a world class opportunist (vote present) and by and large enjoys from the projection of the anti-Clinton right wing conspiracy into a left wing conspiracy where progressives drop Edwards and vote for Obama. The latter is downright ridiculous; why not vote for Rudy?

PS: Unions endorsed Clinton as late as late December when she wasn't inevitable anymore.

A mandate to make Oprah the First Lady maybe.

Great post, Matt! It always warms my heart to see a more illustrious blogger than myself acknowledge the real meaning of the term "special interests," and that you can't pick and choose which ones are "good" and which ones are "bad."

Kit Stolz:
What do you consider a mandate? 55% of the vote? 60%? Has Obama been alive the past 7 years? Does he think the Republicans are gonna just roll over for him like they have for Bush? If so, can I have what you've been smoking?

How would you react if Obama labeled one of the groups you belong to or support (NOW, NAACP, Sierra Club) as meddling special interests? Unions and other advocacy groups certainly meet the definition of interest groups but generally Democratic politicians do not refer to them as such. Obama didn't seem to have a problem with ACORN, the Fraternal Order of Police, and other interest groups when he received their support in 1996, 2000 and 2004.

There is a powerful critique to be made about the shortcomings of "interest group liberalism" but Obama is only concerned with interest groups that support his opponents.

"Obama Comes Up Short on Union Support"
Jesse Holland, AP, December 18, 2007

"And Clinton has nine other well-heeled national unions in her camp, while former North Carolina Sen. John Edwards has four national union endorsements. Obama, meanwhile, has had to make do with city chapters like the Correction Officers' Benevolent Association of New York City and Illinois state chapters of the American Federation of Teachers, AFSCME and the Service Employees International Union. Other state chapters of the service employees union behind Obama include those in Indiana, Wisconsin, Missouri and Kansas."

Gee, now where have I heard the idea of "transcending politics" and "special interests" by "uniting the country" through "personal charisma"? Let me think....

I've heard this music before, and I think I know the tune.

Not to say Obama's playing it, but his fan base certainly seems to be.

"On health care, Obama is consistently running to the right of his rivals" is a much more accurate characterization of the complaint.

I entirely reject this characterization.

All of the Democrats have plans to enlarge the role of government in health care right away, and to set in motion dynamic political and economic factors that will lead to an even larger government role down the road. The heated debate over these plans is not nearly so concerned with "left-right" ideology, as much as it is ultimately just a fight about effective long term political strategy for progressive change in health care. The debate is hampered because neither the candidates nor their agents can go out in public and say "Here's why my plan is a better Trojan Horse than my opponents' plans for a more democratic and socialized national health care system down the road."

The points we are debating are strategy questions. Do we try to sell people now on an individual mandate - with an enforcement mechanism to go with it - and run the risk that this will produce the sort of libertarian "don't tread on me" backlash, easily exploitable by the anti-progressive opponents of all government intervention, that might scuttle the whole effort and set back health care reform for another 15 years? Do we cover more needy, vulnerable and higher risk individuals by offering them only the option to participate in a government plan, or by creating a government regulated exchange that incentivizes competitive participation in a potentially lucrative market for higher risk consumers? Over time, what impact would the existence of this exchange have on the entire health insurance market? Could its regulatory scheme and initial market share be leveraged politically and economically to redistribute risk and extract value from the less-regulated part of the private sector, and draw more and more activity into the government regulated exchange market?

These are all legitimate topics for debate. But I think progressive voters need to do a better job reading between the lines of this debate so far. Effecting progressive change in health care, or anything else, is not simply a matter of pulling some plan off the shelf in the wonk-shop, and saying "I like this one". Many of us might love eventually to see something like the Kucinich plan in place, for example. But of course, Kucinich has no chance of being elected president. And even if by some miracle he were elected, his plan would be torn to shreds in the US Congress.

What Krugman never seems interested in addressing directly is the political challenge of accomplishing a massive structural shift in one of the largest sectors of our economy, where vested interests are prepared to fight vigorously to preserve or enlarge their stake in the current system.

Mark burbles:


... You can't pick and choose which ["special interests"] are "good" and which ones are "bad."

Je repete:

See, we have this thing called politics....

The idea that we can select a "leader" whose "mandate" is to somehow "transcend" politics is not only beyond ignorance historically, it's incredibly dangerous today. All we need in this picture is a white horse. Yet somehow Obama's fan base seems to buy into this notion. Like HRC, Obama is not served well by many of his supporters. At least I hope so, since the alternative is far worse.

Lambert,
Thanks for letting me know what I want. I never said unions weren't useful or that I didn't agree with their general premise (and I certainly didn't say anything about not wanting health care of anything else you decided I was for or against above)...but they simply ARE a special interest, just like the NAACP or the NRA. They are advocating specific positions and viewpoints that would benefit those who back them. I have no problem with that at all.

Shorter Mike P:


a == a

Good to know. If a little vacuous....

Well, maybe I'm missing something, but Obama's only run one real political campaign in his entire life, in which he managed to crush Alan Keyes in a very heavily Democratic state.

Now America's much, much more heavily Republican than Illinois, but I do agree Obama would probably win a decisive though not overwhelming Presidential victory...if the Republicans decide to nominate Alan Keyes...

I think part of Krugman's attacks may have something to do with all the favorable Op-Eds Obama has been getting in the Times, contrasted with several negative ones for Hillary.

He might feel the need to provide the contrarian viewpoint when Times coverage is too one-sided. While I will always respect and admire him for helping bring the rest of the paper (and other media as well) around on the war, I think he is being less useful here. He makes some of the best points against an Obama candidacy, but to me they seem trivial compared with more legitimate worries about Hillary's campaign, or Edward's ability to win the primary.

"Whatever one thinks about unions, they ARE special interests and to act like they are not is to deny the obvious."

Perhaps no one understood this like the Clintons, who spent the 1990s pandering to these interests, in preparation for Hillary's ascendency. But at what price: http://theseedsof9-11.com

Hey look, don't try to find the truth near the voting date.

The problem is that all of you have healthcare so you have the luxury of waiting for 8 or 16 years just to fight for some non-reformist self-loving pure position ignoring the danger that it might never happen. While armchair liberals narcistically argue about the theory behind of all of this people have their houses taken over by banks because they can't afford their mortgage.

Obama has repeatedly said that the French system is the best but as you all know it is unattainable. Now if you understand the power of transparency you will see that these congressmen will fear that the hearings will be on c-span as Barack has advocated.

Shorter Lambert:
Anyone who disagrees with me in good faith is an idiot.

I'm done arguing. It's the season to be merry. Happy Holidays all.

Oh my goodness, Mike.

Anybody who thinks politics can somehow transcend "interest" is indeed an idiot. (And Obama's factitious appeal to "unity" comes dangerously close to this idiotic idea.)

So, Mike, if you believe that, then yes, you are an idiot.

Happy Holidays.

A true mandate is irresistible: that's the point. When Reagan won in l980, he took just over 50% of the popular vote, and the Democrats still controlled the House, but it didn't matter, because they didn't want to challenge him. Will it play out this way this time? If it does, will the Republicans filibuster everything?

I don't pretend to know. I'm just saying that Obama's strategy is worth keeping in mind. He's not after the narrow victory of left over right.

Lambert, I think maybe your view of politics is a little simplistic. Obama is not trying to end ideological conflict -- that will always be with us and Obama knows that full well. What Obama is trying to steer clear of is pandering to narrow special interests. He wants to implement policies that are pro-worker, pro-labor, and pro-union, but not necessarily pro AFSCME or SEIU. He does not want to use policy to reward friends and punish enemies. That is patronage politics and any "progressive" or "liberal" individual worth his/her salt ought to be against that. When he talks about moving past partisan politics, he's talking about moving past narrow, selfish special interests in the interest of policies that are best for all concerned.

Kit:

Your argument is not vacuous, so I'll be nice ;-)

But I'm not understanding it:

1. If Reagan's mandate didn't come from the vote count, where did it come from?

2. What does a mandate mean quantitatively? Everyone but the KoolAid drinkers? (like, 70% of the popular vote?)

3. What does a mandate mean if it's not based on policy outcomes?

The whole "get everyone to sit round the table" just strikes me as papering over real conflicts. It's bizarre, and its very telling that the idea of "unity" started appearing when the Conservative movement stalled, and not before. Everyone in the Village was entirely happy with conflict as long as Conservatives were winning. Now it's suddenly a bad thing.

I don't want to allow the Conservatives to consolidate their gains. I want to claw back what we've lost and destroy their movement, because it's inimical to me personally and to my values.

That's the big picture Krugman is putting forward. The "political economy" drove "the economy."

I don't think appeals to unity understand that, and they're not going to get anywhere, "mandate" or no.

I don't agree that Obama's health care policy is to the right of anyone's. We all the want the same thing. The only disagreement is how to get there. Krugman, Clinton, and Edwards think requiring people to buy insurance gets us closer. I think talking about requiring people to buy insurance risks not getting anywhere, because lots of people will support a plan without mandates but won't support a plan with mandates. So call them stupid. You still won't get their support.

And what does "best for all concerned" mean?

Does anyone really believe that -- say -- "Medicare for all" is going to be seen as "best for all concerned" by most of the Village and the Conservative Movement in particular?

Of course it won't.

"Best for all concerned" means honestly brokered based upon clear progressive principles, not cobbled together based upon narrow selfish interests. As Matt Y points out, progressive interests are frequently in tension. I personally do not want a president who decides which competing progressive interest to favor based upon the fact that one of the progressive interest groups formed a 527 to slime his/her opponent and one of the progressive interest groups formed a 527 to slime him/her.

Doesn't Obama oppose mandates?

Sean:

Well sure. I don't recall advocating slime, and perhaps you can direct me to where I did.

What I believe is that conflict free is content free, and the idea that all we have to do is "transcend narrow partisanship" by "bringing everyone together" around "the same table" is, as Bush I would say, na ga happen. In other words, I believe that Obama's rhetorical stance is not just wrong, but dangerous.

Nor do I have any idea what "honest broker" might mean operationally. Broker between who? The murderers by spreadsheet and the people who aren't getting care? Why is a brokerage metaphor even appropriate here.

And while we're being high-minded about "narrow selfish interests" let me point out that it is absolutely in my "narrow self interest" to not die for lack of health insurance. And so on and so forth.

Our enemy is drowning. Throw him an anvil. Don't sing kumbayah.

I'm not sure who snarky's question was directed to or if it was rhetorical but I'll bite.

Yes, Obama opposes mandates. Though he has said once cost is under control, he might consider them if necessary.

I find it very offensive when a columnist attacks a presidential candidate without the newspaper giving equal time to a response to that atatck. Besides, Krugman's column is infused with a personal animosity that smacks of some unacknowledged prejudice because it does not jibe with Obama's positions, actions and credentials. We can fill in the hostile blanks.

Lambert,

I still think you're missing the point on the Obama approach. The "table" he wants to bring everyone around isn't a dinner table and he doesn't want to get everyone together to sing kumbaya. The "table" is a negotiating table. And by "honest broker" I mean arbiter or judge.

And when I talk about narrow, selfish interests, I'm not talking about being for or against universal healthcare, I'm talking about supporting a policy that would say, undermine the prospect of universal healthcare in order to help Oddfellows Local in Des Moines negotiate a pay raise, for example.

Sheesh. Glad I'm not advocating slime. And, surprise, I'm not advocating the Oddfellows Local in Des Moines either. I'm not sure what the point of all that is.

Really, I think we've got more a == a stuff here.

"Table" not a dinner table. Duh.

"Broker" a judge. Duh.

And last I checked, there was a lot of negotiating going on around metaphorical tables in the Village. Duh.

And Obama would be different how, exactly? Charisma? Appeals to unity? Personal charisma?

Barack Obama is not anti-union. All of the unions in Illinois and surrounding states have endorsed him. Is this just because Senator Obama does not support a mandate for health insurance? How can you force people to participate if they don't have the money? I don't recall John Edwards wanting to change anything about NAFTA when he was in the Senate from 1999 - 2005 or talking about health care for people. He was too busy defending Bill Clinton from impeachment and running for president himself. What did John Edwards do when he was in the Senate? Senator Obama has been working to take lobbyists out of the government and show who is getting all of the earmarks. By the way, Hillary was #3 of those getting the most earmarks.

I remember back in the Mondale Campaign when the AFL-CIO Chief declared that the unions were 100% for the Democratic candidate---of course, nobody asked THE WORKERS THEMSELVES!

Has anyone here heard of the term "Reagan Democrats?" I believe the rank-and-file felt that the leadership was out of touch, among other reasons for that phenomenon.

Krugman's opinions are not only foolish- they're pathetic. If there were a dung beetle race for the most feckless and counter-productive leftist...he'd easily sweep ahead of Mark Shields, Alan Colmes, Al Franken, and Jeanine Garafalo. If you were in a foxhole- would you want this guy by your side? Obama possesses the capacity to work with Republicans. He's not alienating. He offers the chance that there won't be 4-8 more years of paralysis. Edwards? Fine. Get him in there. But, Krugman's candidate Hillary? Stagnation on an epic scale.

Reagan's power didn't come from "mandate", or magic, or Democratic fecklessness (well, not just). He went on TV, and he used his famous charisma to deliver a hella good speech that bought him some space and some political capital, and then he sent Stockman out to spend it. There's no reason to think it couldn't work just the same for a Democrat.

Krugman is an Edwards guy.

I think Atrios most pithily summarized the debate we're having here:

Clinton says the system's corrupt but I'm the best at manipulating it.

Edwards says the system's corrupt and that's why I need to fight it like hell.

Obama says the system's corrupt but that it'll melt before my sheer awesomeness and eloquence.

As Atrios himself might recognize, that's kinda unfair to Obama, but not much. It all depends on how difficult you think it is to realize progressive goals, which also depends on a clear-sighted appraisal of the opposition. From what I've observed over 22 years of voting-age life, the opposition is an unlikely but enduring alliance of economic oligarchs and noisy but ineffectual God-hawkers, ie, they spend a lot of noise on teh gay and teh brown, the godless and the Commies/Muslims, but their operational agenda is about serving the monied interests. And the short version, through Whitewater, Monicagate, the War on Gore, post 9-11 hysteria, Swift Boating, Schiavo, and the recently averted plan to bomb Iran, is that they're wholly implacable and more than a little nuts.

Based on that, I don't think that a rhetoric of strategy of sweet reasonableness is going to cut it in terms of fighting them. Call it a bargaining table or dinner table, call the President the neutral arbiter or what have you, eventually a Democratic President is going to have to fight these guys, either on his/her own initiative or because they attack him and force him to. I prefer the former, and I'm afraid that Obama prefers his posture of above-the-fray awesomeness to doing that.

My God...........
I really don't get the Edwards supporters at all.
I thought that in the age of the internet, that FACTS might have a bearing on who we choose as President.
No, I was wrong.
Edwards is another pandering lying pol, nothing more.
He has had to appologize for his votes on all of the critical fights of the progressive members of congress during his one single term in elected government.
Bankruptcy Reform, wrong side.
Patriot Act, wrong side.
The Iraq AUMF, wrong side.
Where was Hillary on all of these?
Right with Edwards.
It is really incredible how a little populist snake oil can so quickly slide supposedly "high information" progressives right off the tracks towards a government of the people, by the people, and for the people.
Edwards doesn't have a chance in hell of being able to compete, unless he uses soft money from the 527's. That is what he has been counting on all along. That is the reason he has so blatantly bent over and dropped trou for the unions. It isn't because he gives two shitz about "working people", he just wants the soft special interest money because he doesn't have the support of regular people to raise the funds from to compete against Obama or Clinton.
His biggest problem with this dishonest strategy is that in the game of insider favor, and politics as usual, he is trying to get help from the same insiders that the DLC Dems have already sold us regular folks out to. It is an utterly pathetic and doomed strategy, plus it is patently dishonest at it's foundation. Am I spewing "right wing talking points"(tm)? I don't know, and I don't care. I see no reason to stick up for a pandering millionaire like JRE or the DLC cancer of HRC.
I have been an Independant Sound Engineer for almost 30 years. I have absolutely no great love for the Unions. I have seen corruption, and favoritism used over and over again in the IATSE union. That being said, the Artist Management, Concert Promoters, and Oligarchial major Record Companies are enemies for sure. The next President needs to be able to stand in the middle of these special Interests (yes, the golden calf of Unions IS a special interest)in order to protect the average american that doesn't have any political clout. Guys like me who get frozen out by the Union because I won't pay protection money when they have never gotten me work in the first place.

As to what started this whole thing in the first place, the "mandates" issue. It is nothing more than a Strawman. Any idiot can see that there is 0% chance that any healthcare reform that forces Americans to buy insurance, is a total fallacy. Will. Not. Happen. Both Hillary and Edwards know this, and are just trying to score points with it. Fine. That's fair in an election, but please excuse me while I recognize that they are lying to me and Vote for Obama instead.
I prefer to live in the reality based community.
Krugman won't be changing anybody's mind of consequence. The fact is, that most of us out here that would spend the time to actually comment on a political blog site have already made up their mind anyway, no matter WHAT they say.
Personaly, I respect Obama for not bowing down to everything that is considered "liberal" by those in the chattering class that will never be affected by those positions in the first place. I come from Detroit Michigan, and have seen the destruction of the Auto Industry. Labor and Management have EQUAL blame as far as I am concerned. The corrupt auto industry shares the blame with the corupt teamsters and UAW. The sad truth is, in the end, the ones that lose, are those of us in the middle of these fights.
We are the ones that Barack is fighting for, those of us that are collateral damage in the fight between the special interests of the right and the left.
I'll take Obama.
Krugman can kiss my ass.

"Obama possesses the capacity to work with Republicans."

As I read earlier, just like Joe Lieberman possesses the capacity to work with Republicans.

On a totally non-political note, I've just eaten the only palatable fruitcake I've ever had. Yum. It's a Christmas miracle!

"We are the ones that Barack is fighting for, those of us that are collateral damage in the fight between the special interests of the right and the left."

Another we are the ones moron.

AFSCME President Gerald McEntee denounces mandates before congress, supports Hillary who is proposing mandates, then puts out an ad attacking Obama and quoting Edwards while failing to mention Hillary. Poor union leadership has had a lot to do with the decline in membership, it is often corrupt and more often self serving. Hillary sat on Walmart's board, a company which has not been friendly towards unions. She also employs Mark Penn (his company has worked to bust unions for clients) as her campaign manager. So why does McEntee endorse Clinton rather than Edwards? Why doesn't he stand up for the union he represents, if he won't why should anyone else.


Ezra Klein and Krugman both are wrong and both need to stop pretending they understand progressive issues or unions if they are buying into this it's OK for 527's to run ads as long as it is unions.

Unions are nothing but another special interest group and they are in Hillary's DLC pocket just as sure as shootin.

Obama is the only one who is honest and upfront the rest of these folks are lying hypocrites

Trevor, what's your basis for claiming that Hillary is Krugmans' preferred candidate? I don't see how anyone who has regularly followed Krugman's columns over the past year or so could reasonably say that. Of the top three, he clearly favors Edwards. I personally think Krugman has miscalculated in going after Obama (mainly because I'm fervently anti-Hillary and I'm willing to give Obama the benefit of the doubt though his rhetoric worries me). But to call Krugman feckless just shows that you're clueless. One could argue that, more than any single individual, Krugman has spearheaded the paradigm shift toward a more left-leaning populist consciousness in our country.

The fact is, Krugman is direct, empirically-driven and doesn't parse words--he's more like a Brit or European political thinker/commentator in that respect. And in the timid, sycophantic, tribal world of American political discourse, a lot of people can't deal with that when the razor analysis comes swinging back around at their favored guy. Having said that, I still don't like Krugman's targetting of Obama--from a strategic perspective. If Hilary gets in there, it's all over.

Lambert,
Again, that is not what I said at all. If you haven't, I would suggest you read Mark Schmitt's piece about Obama's rhetoric and tactics. It make a very interesting case again what you see as Obama's happy go lucky speak.

Also, I am fairly certain that you and I probably want the same things but we differ about how to get there. I'm not "the enemy".

(1) Krugman is intellectually dishonest.

Why? Because he is cynically using the Times’ megaphone, while hiding behind the Times’ policy prohibiting endorsement of any candidate, to promote the interest of his own candidate, John Edwards, by attacking the candidate who is poised to defeat his candidate. All the while pretending that he is merely putting forward the arguments of a disinterested observer with technical expertise who has studied the economics of the issue

(2) Krugman is politically naïve.

Why? Because he is using armchair economics theorizing about moral hazard (his simplistic basis for bashing the lack of mandates) to beat over the head someone who is much more alert to (and has the longstanding track record and experience to prove it) the political modus operandi needed to successfully achieve legislation in the environment of actual struggle with political opponents. His childish claims about the need for “bitter confrontation”, unsupported by any serious argument about how this is supposed to achieve results in the actual context of the US Congress, simply underlines his political naivete.

Krugman is wrong this time around, as he will always be on Barack. Obviously, Obama is not a populist politician, he is more of a realist. He only say things that he is sure of being workable not what certain groups want to hear. He is sincere and always looks for the practical ways of achieving liberal ideals.

John Edwards to me, is like a Democrats version of republican's Mitt Romny. He will always say, do or even appologize to anything as long as it help his position at that particular time. I can't even tell if John had ever taken a position that is unpopular for the benefit of the liberals/nation? (Forget about his self enriching court battle). He always sides with populitst positions as long as they serve him in that particular incident. That's how he came to vote for the war in Iraq and appologize when he decided to run but only after the war went sour Now he comes with some populist slogans such as an ant-poverty candidate, special interest fighter etc. Does he have anything to back-up these rhetorics? How much of his millions has he spent on poverty reduction than having a $4000 hair cut? Obama having worked to help workers who lost their jobs and in ghetos with his Havard + Columbia degrees could easly claim this tittle. To me John Edward is just another Dem's Mitt Romney.

On Hillary Clinton, not much really needs to be said about her, she is widely agreed as a Dem's version of Bush+Chenney. A dynasty in the making. Her IPAC centered foreign policies are obviouly going to drag us into Iran and whereever esle they will instruct her to take us. She is obviously a self promoted president, with selfish dynastical ambition. This time around we need a prez whose experience is rooted in the real life of the ordinary Americans, but also well versed on our challenges on the mess George B, created in the middle east and is not too absorbed by the ways of the washington. To me, only Obama possess most if not all of these credentials and is also capable of winning the general election and cherish our liberal aspirations. Let's rally behind him and give him the mandate to change. Go Obama.

> Krugman is intellectually dishonest ... Krugman is politically naïve.

Does anyone know what the latest polling numbers are for the all-important Pathetic Troll Primary?

Until I joined this thread, I would have said HRC by a mile, but now, I'm really not so sure.

Nice to see Obama, taking the views of his fan-base as a proxy for his own, running right, and right into the arms of the Village.

Cuts through all that unity, new kind of politics crap with really refeshing candor. Thanks, Justin. (Assuming you're an Obama troll, and not some kind of weird Rovian bankshot kind of troll. Who knows, at this point?)

"This kind of thing is why I'll be glad when this primary race is over."

You'd be enjoying the primary race quite a bit more if you weren't rooting for such an anti-left candidate, Matt.

Picking up on a question asked about 25 posts ago...Reagan won about 50% of the vote; Carter won about 40%. Anyone politically aware at that time will recall how earth-shaking that victory was.

Now, again, my point is not that such a victory, however sweet, is foreordained. My point is that Obama is consciously aiming towards that end, which if he achieves will have a huge effect. Perhaps his strategy is foolish; perhaps a mandate for a Democratic presidential candidate is impossible. But folks who think that this is about being sweet and reasonable towards Republicans are missing the point. Obama wants to run the table. If he succeeds, a lot of what we're bickering about now will be completely forgotten -- just as only the history majors remember what FDR promised before he was elected.

Hey baba, not even the Republican trolls talk about a four thousand dollar haircut.

Assuming, of course, that you aren't a Republican troll, playing the super-vehement Obama troll to such an extreme extent as to discredit the poor man. But take you at face value:

Hey, if Obama, bless his heart, wants to have a Sister Souljah moment and appeal to the Village by trashing progressives, then have at it, say I. Knock yourselves out.

But please don't insult the intelligence of your readers by calling that new politics, and then appealing for unity. That's very old politics, and not very well practiced at that.

Or do only insurance companies deserve seats at the table, and not Paul Krugman or unions?

> Obama wants to run the table.

Maybe. To me, Sister Souljah tactics that tack toward the center look a lot more like standard Beltway consultant tactics to me.

And to ask again the question I asked about 25 posts ago:

What does a mandate look like quantitatively?

The answer I get from Kit right now is 50/40 (and not the number of all Americans - the KoolAid drinkers, which would be the mother of all mandates at abot 70/30).

OK, so 50/40 is the yardstick. So far as I can tell, any Democrat finds those numbers well within reach.

So I don't that this means that only Obama can "run the table."

Further, the kumbayah stuff makes me think Obama's going to end up negotiating with himself like Harry and Nancy constantly do -- to the great detriment of progressives and the country, I might add.

"Picking up on a question asked about 25 posts ago...Reagan won about 50% of the vote; Carter won about 40%. Anyone politically aware at that time will recall how earth-shaking that victory was."

But why was it such a politically earth-shaking election? Others have won by similar margins without shaking things up.

What made Reagan's victory so important is that he was running on ideas and rhetoric that were perceived as being out of the mainstream before his election.

And, of course, that's why an Edwards victory would move the political mainstream to the left in a way that a victory by the cautious centrism of Clinton and Obama can not.

Edwards is willing to run as a populist, proud progressive. If he can win like that, he'll shift Washington as much as Reagan did.

Petey,
That would assume that Edwards could win the general. Jonathan Alter (as well as the guys at Democracy Arsenal) made the very good point last week in response to Krugman's populist op-ed that while populist sentiment sounds good in primaries, it rarely wins the White House.

"That would assume that Edwards could win the general. Jonathan Alter (as well as the guys at Democracy Arsenal) made the very good point last week in response to Krugman's populist op-ed that while populist sentiment sounds good in primaries, it rarely wins the White House."

And prior to Reagan winning the WH, no one had ever won the WH on a populist platform of radical conservatism.

Edwards has consistently done better than Clinton and Obama in general election matchups all year long. Presidential general elections get won on personality and cultural markers, which is precisely how Reagan won with such a radical platform.

And it's exactly the same reason why all the evidence shows Edwards as the most electable Dem despite running clearly to the left of the field.

If you care about moving the mainstream of politics, when you find a candidate who can simultaneously run to the base while also having the best general election support, you know you have something special.

If you're not willing to run on anything out of the mainstream - ala Clinton and Obama - you're not going to be able to change Washington after you win.

Of course, perhaps you just prefer Obama's centrism to progressivism. Perhaps you're a big fan of the Harry Reid / Nancy Pelosi brand of Washington Dems. If so, then you ought to be supporting Obama.

Lambert--

Do you actually have any substantive disagreements with Obama, aside from healthcare mandates?

I ask because all of your comments on this board deal with tactics and rhetoric. Not that these aren't worth discussing, of course, but you couch your disagreements as policy-based, which allows you to claim the mantle of substance, but then you never actually talk about issues.

Put another way, I think you suffer from means-ends confusion. You don't like Obama's style, that's fine, but I'm interested to hear why you think he's so anti-progressive, given

1) His hold on Spakovsky's nomination to FEC (why aren't liberals paying more attention to this issue???!!)

2) His vote against the bankruptcy bill (Hillary was the only Senator not to vote in 2005, after voting "yes" in 2001)

3) His work for campaign finance reform and against bogus voter id laws

4) His proposal to raise the cap on the payroll tax, thus making SS funding much less regressive

That's just off the top of my head.

I look forward to your substantive response.

Cheers!

"1) His hold on Spakovsky's nomination to FEC (why aren't liberals paying more attention to this issue???!!)"

Because it seems to be motivated by a desire to keep Edwards from collecting matching funds.

Because it's the worst kind of political dirty tricks, and is reason enough to veto Obama as the nominee of the Party.

If Obama wants to bash progressives, I think he'll find progressives bashing him.

Petey:

> he was running on ideas and rhetoric

True, Petey, but let's also remember that the winger institutions like AEI and Heritage had also been well funded and in operation for a decade or more, and the right had already started "working the refs" with the press. So, when Reagan took office, he had a strong infrastructure that had developed those ideas and that rhetoric and could carry it forward.

We won't have an infrastructure that's nearly so strong (although it's better than it was). Which makes it all the more important not to negotiate with ourselves at the start.

You know, we already tried what Obama wants to do. We tried all the honest brokerage stuff. We tried getting everybody around the table to negotiate.

We tried singing kumbaya, and it was called the 110th Congress. We tried singing kumbaya by taking impeachment off the table. We tried singing kumbaya by only sending sternly worded letters and never enforcing subpoenas. We tried singing kumbaya by letting the Republicans set a world record for filibustering. We tried singing kumbaya by negotiating on S-CHIP. We tried singing kumbaya by honoring Republican holds and never our own. We tried singing kumbaya on FISA and Bush broke his word on it.

Harry and Nancy already tried singing kumbaya, and we didn't get squat because you can't negotiate with Conservatives. They don't believe in it, and when they fake it, they don't negotiate in good faith. It's Lucy and the football, every single time.

And when Obama tries the same thing -- remember, with the same 50/40 mandate that Hillary and Edwards could get too -- the same thing is going to happen to him.

The only problem is that it's going to take another year, from Inauguration day on, for Obama to discover, just like Harry and Nancy have, that singing kumbaya isn't going to achieve progressive policy outcomes. Can the country really afford another year? I don't think so.

lambert,

I don't think you can really extrapolate your idea of how a Democratic majority in Congress should have dealt with the Bush administration to how a Democratic administration should deal with a Republican minority in Congress.

They're pretty dissimilar situations, and a lot of the frustration you're feeling will abate simply by virtue of Bush and Cheney not being in office anymore.

marcj:

My issues with Obama aren't tactical (winning the election) but strategic* (achieving policy outcomes). I think the vision he presents of how American politics should work in the 21st century is cannot achieve the policy outcomes that I (and I believe most Americans) prefer.

As I say above, we tried singing kumbaya. It didn't work.

* Incidentally, if 30 years of Conservative rule have taught us -- or should have taught us -- anything, it's that to think strategically is to think rhetorically (though not vice versa, and there are more components to strategy than rhetoric). When Obama adopted Conservative talking points on Social Security, he may have done so for short-term, tacking-right reasons, but it also undid several years of hard progressive work discrediting Village-centric "crisis" rhetoric. Very bad move.