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Ron Paul: The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly

23 Dec 2007 09:15 pm

There are definitely times during Ron Paul's Meet The Press interview where you wonder how it is that Paul got to me the protest candidate while Russert is the voices of sober-minded sensibleness:

MR. RUSSERT: So if Iran invaded Israel, what do we do?

REP. PAUL: Well, they're not going to. That is like saying "Iran is about to invade Mars." I mean, they have nothing. They don't have an army or navy or air force. And Israelis have 300 nuclear weapons. Nobody would touch them. But, no, if, if it were in our national security interests and Congress says, "You know, this is very, very important, we have to declare war." But presidents don't have the authority to go to war.

Of course, Iran also lacks a land border with Israel so unless their uranium enrichment program winds up leading to the development of a teleportation device (or, more precisely, the Heisenberg compensator you'd need to make it work) we probably don't need to worry. On the other hand, though, you get this:

MR. RUSSERT: Let me ask you about race, because I, I read a speech you gave in 2004, the 40th anniversary of the Civil Rights Act. And you said this: "Contrary to the claims of" "supporters of the Civil Rights Act of" '64, "the act did not improve race relations or enhance freedom. Instead, the forced integration dictated by the Civil Rights Act of" '64 "increased racial tensions while diminishing individual liberty." That act gave equal rights to African-Americans to vote, to live, to go to lunch counters, and you seem to be criticizing it.[...]

MR. RUSSERT: You would vote against the Civil Rights Act if, if it was today?

REP. PAUL: If it were written the same way, where the federal government's taken over property--has nothing to do with race relations. It just happens, Tim, that I get more support from black people today than any other Republican candidate, according to some statistics. And I have a great appeal to people who care about personal liberties and to those individuals who would like to get us out of wars. So it has nothing to do with racism, it has to do with the Constitution and private property rights.

Now Paul is right to say that this is just an area where libertarian ideology and white supremacist ideology just so happens to overlap, but there you have it -- overlap
with white supremacist ideology. And then there's this:

MR. RUSSERT: I was intrigued by your comments about Abe Lincoln. "According to Paul, Abe Lincoln should never have gone to war; there were better ways of getting rid of slavery."

REP. PAUL: Absolutely. Six hundred thousand Americans died in a senseless civil war. No, he shouldn't have gone, gone to war. He did this just to enhance and get rid of the original intent of the republic. I mean, it was the--that iron, iron fist..

MR. RUSSERT: We'd still have slavery.

REP. PAUL: Oh, come on, Tim. Slavery was phased out in every other country of the world. And the way I'm advising that it should have been done is do like the British empire did. You, you buy the slaves and release them. How much would that cost compared to killing 600,000 Americans and where it lingered for 100 years? I mean, the hatred and all that existed. So every other major country in the world got rid of slavery without a civil war. I mean, that doesn't sound too radical to me. That sounds like a pretty reasonable approach.

Obviously, yes, there were better ways to end slavery. That's why Abraham Lincoln didn't run on a platform that said "let's have a bloody civil war!" Rather, his idea was to prevent the expansion of slavery into new territories and try to nudge the country in the direction of compensated emancipation. The South, though, decided that rather than abide by the results of the election, they would secede from the country and establish a new herrenvolk democracy committed to slavery uber alles. They, not Lincoln, put resolution of the slavery issue through the political process out of reach.

Photo by Flickr user Jayel Aheram used under a Creative Commons license

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Comments (388)

Right. And, you know, the "War of Northern Aggression" rhetoric aside, it was the South that began hostilities against the North.

Yes, and the civil war obviously didn't have anything to do with tariffs imposed on behalf of northern industrialists to protect their industries which resulted in counter-tariffs against agricultural exports decimating the economy of the south. See? Corporatism (fascism) and federal meddling in trade matters, picking winners and losers, carries no consequences. That is, if you get to write the elementary school history books.

I'm amazed that the author of this post considers himself a sufficient expert on libertarian philosophy to say it overlaps with white supremacy. It does nothing of the kind.

Why don't you do some more research Matthew?

Actually, the civil war was fought to stop secession, not to stop slavery. Lincoln himself said that if he could have kept the union together by keeping slavery, he would have done so.

Even that, in my opinion, marks him a tyrant. Secession should be a legal option.

Actually, the civil war was fought to stop secession, not to stop slavery. Lincoln himself said that if he could have kept the union together by keeping slavery, he would have done so.

"The Civil War wasn't about slavery" is one of the great lies of our time. People say it often, I guess because it makes them seem iconoclastic. Lookit-- the secession only happened because of a dispute over slavery. The root cause of the rift that lead to civil war was slavery, which makes the war about slavery.

I'd love for you to show me where in the constitution is allows the government to regulate what kinds of people may enter and use someone's "private" establishment.
Race aside, If I don't want people entering my establishment that are perhaps over 6 foot, why should I not be allowed to do that? The Market regulates this, if I restrict anyone from entering my business, someone will open a similar business to capitalize on my restrictiveness.

Civil War - Paul didn't talk about this, but a large part of that war was fought not over slavery, but over the placement of central banks. Slavery was the issue the media focuses on.

Our once great nation will be lost forever if this election is not taken by Ron Paul.

Absurd article.
If you did any research, the emancipation of slavery occurred during the Civil War, not before it. The civil war was based on the South doing free trade with other countries because the north was using tariffs to destroy the southern economy. As for Ron Paul's assessment, I agree, we should have purchased them and freed them and subsequently banned slavery from ever occurring again. This is what every single other nation did and if we had done it that way, we wouldn't have the prejudice we have even today. It certainly would have cost less than the war, which was the deadliest in our entire history, losing nearly a million men alone.

Michael Cathcart writes: "Our once great nation will be lost forever if this election is not taken by Ron Paul."

When Paul's supporters make statements like that it reinforces the idea that he's running a cult, not a campaign. Similar claims are made by LaRouchies. Ron Paul is a political candidate. He's not a messiah. There are no messiahs.

I'd love for you to show me where in the constitution is allows the government to regulate what kinds of people may enter and use someone's "private" establishment.

This was litigated in the 1960s. The Supreme Court held that the Commerce Clause, which empowers Congress to promote and regulate interstate commerce, allows the federal government to ban racial discimination in all public accommodations, including small ones such as Ollie's Barbecue (the subject of one of the cases).

If blacks in the north knew that they faced Jim Crow segregation when traveling to the south, they'd stay away and interstate commerce would suffer, at least a little. So the Court held. It's weak, but necessary, I think, if society was to begin to extend full civil rights to black people.

In a technical sense, Paul is right that some business owners lost some small measure of control over their property. But capitalism seems to have survived OK since 1964.

Hal:

you have misdecribed the Commerce Clause power.

It has nothing to do with what effect Jim Crow would have on interstate commerce, it has to do with Congress' power to regulate those activities that effect interstate commerce.

Here's what I love about the Ron Paul movement: he's sparking interest in discussions far above the fray of the horse race.

The constitutionality of the income tax and the IRS, the validity of the federal reserve, fiat currency, the consequences of foreign policy blowback...

It's an elevated diatribe and welcome development. Imagine what this country would learn (relearn?) about itself in four years of a Ron Paul presidency.

I think it's high time for a little introspection now that we've managed to piss off even our allies in our unbridled pursuit of Pax Americana.

Ron Paul is weak on Israel, IMO - But as someone with Paulish sympathies , it was refreshing to hear Russert blow the chance of nailing by asking a stupid question. Iran invade Israel? Even Bibi would not try to advance such an absurd speculation.

But did anyone beside me notice Russert expose his own hollow - mind via his faux-tough gotach question aboout the exact number of troops we have overseas?

Paul just batted that dumb little statistic away - stats are for clerks, not leaders. Russert is hopelessly bougeois.

Here's something I found very interesting about today's interview on Meet the Press. Paul was asked about his support for amending the constitution to deny citizenship to illegal immigrant children born in the United States. His response was, and I quote, "It's not unconstitutional to amend the constitution." Well, yeah. But it seems really glib in the context of a campaign that has elevated constitutionality to the level of fetish, and I think it demonstrates the strains in any originalist argument. Paul is a strict originalist, except when he favors policies that don't support that reading of the constitution. Which is fine, except that, again, he's made himself, and his supporters have made him, a stalwart defender of the constitution as currently written. It was a weird moment.

Thanks for the post, Matt. I consider myself a centrist voter(right now i'm deciding between McCain and Obama, i know not much overlap but they are candidates I can trust to lead). I found myself drawn to Paul for a second but something about him (and his supporters) makes me think he is batshit insane. like a conservative LaRouche. This post and the comments about slavery, civil rights, as well as Paul's economic ideas (protectionist trade, gold standard) have convinced me to never vote for him in ANY circumstance.

Hal, sorry but I disagree. You said, "But capitalism seems to have survived OK since 1964." - I say that CORPORATISM has flourished since the civil war and expanded even faster since 1964. The strength and vitality of the free market has been successful IN SPITE OF corporatism and the warfare/welfare state.

Not only is using the commerce clause 'weak', but it shows one of the few weaknesses in our beloved constitution: we need it clarified and re-ratified once and for all with: very clear and explicit language, and with secession being a legal and lawful endeavor of any state as has to be logically - how could a state ratify the constitution WITHOUT retaining the right of secession? The commerce clause has justified everything from intervention into every farmer's business, to welfare, to... you name it. It has provided the foundation for the undoing of the entire constitution and this country. Gee, my selling lemonade on the corner does have some, minute, effect on commerce elsewhere - we need to regulate it! Logically, even this ridiculous example follows the logic necessary for the commerce clause to be used in the manner it does!

There are many ways - none right, none wrong - to say what the Civil War was about.

A plausible case can be made that it was not about slavery and one can quote Lincoln to that affect.

But it was about slavery - indirectly. In European press at the time, this was quite clear - That's why the 'left' - broadly speaking - was for the North, while reactionary elements and mercantile interests favored the south.

A great movie is yet to be made about some of the covert operations that foreign powers conducted on behalf of either side and with various Indian tribes.

MoeLarryAndJesus writes "There are no messiahs."

You can read whatever you want into my statement, but the fact remains. Any Democrat that we elect will keep us in perpetual war, and move us towards full Socialism. Any Republican, save for Paul, will keep us in perpetual war, and continue to allow for mass entitlement programs to crash the economy. Besides the greatest threat to our country is the devaluing of our currency, and there is only one candidate talking about that fact.

---------------------------------

Hal writes "But capitalism seems to have survived OK since 1964."

That's completely untrue, our country has never had a true capitalism, at one time were pretty close to being a true capitalist nation, but that was over a century ago. You might say that The American Capitalist brand has survived since 1964, but that would also be false. Our country has been taken over by those who despise free markets. The market place has gone completely by the way-side. We now have a quasi - socialist nation, although that has been brewing since FDR began his rule. I would contend today we are far closer to socialism than capitalism.

The United States Congress just passed a bill to regulate the type of light bulbs we may use. Im sure the founders foresaw a time when the government would decide what equipment we may use for our private lighting concerns.

If this were all a movie, I cant decide if it would be a tragedy or a farce?

"... you have it -- overlap with white supremacist ideology ..."

Nonsense. Ron Paul and every libertarian believe that every human being has exactly the same rights, no matter their skin color. We all supported full civil rights for everyone, which does not include the right to enter anyone's private property without their consent.
Government can't change minds by force and it should never violate individual rights, including the right of every person to control their own private property.

These comments make Matt's point clear: it is bizarre for liberals to support Ron Paul. The problem for liberals is that even though you could say that there is a unity between Paul's pre-Lincolnite vision of the United States and his non-imperialist foreign policy - which is sorta like Russell Kirk's, - still, that foreign policy does cut through the current web of complete crap that is woven about the subject. And no liberal candidate seems to have the courage to make Paul's case on liberal terms - and it is not hard to make on liberal terms. McGovern did it quite well - a reference which makes the Dem consultants groan, as they like to pretend it was McGovern's weakness on defense, rather than Johnson's cold war aggressiveness, that ushered in the age of Republicans. So the lesson of Hubert Humphrey's loss is forgotten, and instead of building a constituency and a media discourse against continuing to be a warmaniac nation, you get the infinite compromising that leads, again and again, to Humphrey like defeats.

The article brings up some very good points, and I think the comments have spawned a conversation worth having. That being said, I'm a little confused as to why Matthew Yglesias isn't coming out to support his points and defend himself from the criticism he has received.


Here are some things I would like to point out:

1) "Now Paul is right to say that this is just an area where libertarian ideology and white supremacist ideology just so happens to overlap, but there you have it -- overlap
with white supremacist ideology."

Unfortunately Mr. Yglesias, freedom overlaps with a lot of things the vast majority wouldn't necessarily agree with or tolerate. That being said, controversial and hateful representations of America are allowed the same freedom as our more noble citizens. It's when members of those groups impose on, or have any affect on, another individuals personal property that the problem becomes a legal matter that requires government intervention.

Signed,

Crazy Ron Paul Supporter John

gunther...

care to explain protectionist trade? when did paul say that he wants "protectionist trade"?

Please research before making absurd claims.

And it is totally irrational to think that paper can be money. Just keep printing paper and think that it has value. I think the FED and their associates have sucessfuly brainwashed people into thinking that Gold standards is bad.

The Civil War was not fought because of slavery... hooray for revisionist history.

Ron did ok, but I don't know that he picked up more than his base. He needs to start talking about the high price of gas, high credit card rates, high price of food; how banks are taking back our homes and cars. Go Ron; fourth party please. Hopefully Mike Bloomberg gets in, then Rudy and Hillary are the other candidates; Ron might have then a real hope; as would the country; needs a real Veep. One last thing; with the Constitution hanging by a thread; Ron means there is hope again in America; the message is not really Ron; it is the Constitution.

Michael Cathcart:

"The Market regulates this, if I restrict anyone from entering my business, someone will open a similar business to capitalize on my restrictiveness"

But in fact the Market did not regulate this, which is why the act had to be passed in the first place. I really don't understand libertarians absolute faith in the Market to solve all problems, even in cases where it's so utterly clear that it failed.

For the sake of argument let's assume that the North did not fight the civil war to free the slaves.

By what justification could the North invade the South upon their secession?

Just curious.

you have misdecribed the Commerce Clause power. It has nothing to do with what effect Jim Crow would have on interstate commerce, it has to do with Congress' power to regulate those activities that effect interstate commerce.

Now THAT is some expert hair-splitting! Admittedly correct.

A few things should be noted:

1. It was also understood that Jim Crow laws would, themselves, affect interstate commerce - black people would be less likely to travel if there wouldn't be as many hotels available, etc.

2. The Civil Rights Act also possibly could have passed muster under the 14th Amendment, bypassing the whole Commerce Clause business. Congress thought the Commerce Clause was a safer bet.

3. Ron Paul is advocating a property rights regime under which one has the right to hold an establishment open to the public except for certain races. In Ron Paul's America, it would be perfectly legal for Denny's to hang a big "Whites Only" sign outside their restaurant. That alone should preclude Paul from being taken seriously. He is an advocate for an idiosyncratic and retrograde conception of property which there is no good reason to adopt. Property rights are what we decide they are, and there's no reason in hell why we ought to decide that they include the right to discriminate.

"By what justification could the North invade the South upon their secession?"

Well, if you ignore the power of the government to battle an insurrection, which is referenced in the constitution, you could always go with the fact that the South attacked the a United States military base.

Secession wasn't about slavery? Really? Someone forgot to tell South Carolina. In its Declaration of Secession, South Carolina mentioned slavery or slaves 18 times. The document is replete with hte issue of slavery. Tariffs, taxes, and other economic issues were not mentioned once.

http://facweb.furman.edu/~benson/docs/decl-sc.htm

We affirm that these ends for which this Government was instituted have been defeated, and the Government itself has been made destructive of them by the action of the non-slaveholding States. Those States have assumed the right of deciding upon the propriety of our domestic institutions; and have denied the rights of property established in fifteen of the States and recognized by the Constitution; they have denounced as sinful the institution of slavery; they have permitted open establishment among them of societies, whose avowed object is to disturb the peace and to eloign the property of the citizens of other States. They have encouraged and assisted thousands of our slaves to leave their homes; and those who remain, have been incited by emissaries, books and pictures to servile insurrection.


For twenty-five years this agitation has been steadily increasing, until it has now secured to its aid the power of the common Government. Observing the forms of the Constitution, a sectional party has found within that Article establishing the Executive Department, the means of subverting the Constitution itself. A geographical line has been drawn across the Union, and all the States north of that line have united in the election of a man to the high office of President of the United States, whose opinions and purposes are hostile to slavery. He is to be entrusted with the administration of the common Government, because he has declared that that "Government cannot endure permanently half slave, half free," and that the public mind must rest in the belief that slavery is in the course of ultimate extinction.

The revisionists would tell you that it has to do with tariffs, and corporatism, and something something LINCOLN WAS A TYRANT.

But even if we put slavery aside, the Confederates did seize Fort Sumter, U.S. property. And the federal government was probably justified in getting it back. So let's just call it the War of Fort Sumter and it'll be even.

As for Ron Paul- has anyone seen him and Ross Perot in the same room at once? Are you so sure this isn't a Batman/Bruce Wayne sort of thing?

Lest we forget, the South also methodically restricted the power of blacks to open businesses. (Sen. Eastland publicly regretted not going further than that: "Our big mistake was letting 'em get driver's licenses so they could get out of the state.")

"Separate but equal" might conceivably (if very awkwardly) worked, as the Court apparently hoped it would in "Plessy vs. Ferguson" -- except that the reason white Southerners wanted the blacks to be Separate was precisely because they hated them, which of course meant that they were also determined not to let them be Equal.

(By the way, the Wikipedia article on the case repeats an absolutely priceless comment that Rehnquist made in defense of the decision when he was a law clerk during the deliberations on the "Brown" case: "I realize that it is an unpopular and unhumanitarian position, for which I have been excoriated by 'liberal' colleagues, but I think Plessy v. Ferguson was right and should be reaffirmed....To the argument... that a majority may not deprive a minority of its constitutional right, the answer must be made that while this is sound in theory, in the long run it is the majority who will determine what the constitutional rights of the minority are." No wonder National Review and the Reaganites loved him.)

By what justification could the North invade the South upon their secession?

The Southern states had no right to secede. The system we have is one of dual sovereignty; from the time the United States was formed, it was the acknowledged legitimate government over all the land that fell within its boundaries. The states were allowed to remain sovereign over their territory to some extent as well - but they remained fundamentally subordinate to the federal government - supremacy clause and all. In their sphere of authority, their sovereignty is complete and unassailable - but outside it, they have none. The secession was an attempt to go beyond the limits of their sovereignty and authority.

The United States is not the United Nations. The authority of the federal government isn't just wielded over the states - it's wielded over all the people in all the states. The authority and legitimacy that the U.S. has vis-a-vis its citizens isn't carried through the states like some kind of intermediary - it's direct and immediate, and totally goes around the states, in its proper sphere. Every citizen is a "subject" of two sovereigns - the U.S., and whatever state he happens to live in.

States can't just decide to withdraw the way, e.g., France could withdraw from the U.N. For the Southern states to have "seceded" was just as much a direct assault on the sovereignty of the federal government as it would have been if they had seized Washington, D.C.

One thing Ron Paul did a bit that I wish other candidates would do more - He pushed back on some dumb horserace question.

Horserace questions have their place - but sometimes it's absurd and insulting.

Stephanopolous a while back spent an entire show asking Edwards horserace questions that were really all about George trying to sound clever.

Fred Thompson was correct to tell that woman (who was followng Chris Matthews example) to go to hell re Hand Raising -- An infantiling excercise.

The other day Chris Matthews was on speading lies about Barack Obama's mom (saying she was Muslim, when she was not) - Yet no one told him to shut the f@@@ up and show some respect for the facts and an important woman's life history!

This kind of nonsense goes on and on - It's important to note that Russert is one of the best tv journalists, so that fact - along with the fact that he is bad - should force people to wake up and candidates should challange the questioner more often.

I'd love for you to show me where in the constitution is allows the government to regulate what kinds of people may enter and use someone's "private" establishment.

The argument that convinced me on this one was that, practically speaking, the choices were not between a world where any businessman might set his own entrance criteria and one in which the federal government set one for the nation. Rather, they were between the federalized standard and a situation in which the states and their constituent counties and cities enforced apartheid through means such as selective provision and revocation of licenses or declining to offer police protection to noncompliant businesses and exposing them to supremacist vigilantes. Seen in that light, the action seems justified by the language of Amendment 14: "The Congress shall have the power to enforce, by appropriate legislation... ...[that no state shall] deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

"Michael Cathcart writes: "Our once great nation will be lost forever if this election is not taken by Ron Paul."

When Paul's supporters make statements like that it reinforces the idea that he's running a cult, not a campaign. Similar claims are made by LaRouchies. Ron Paul is a political candidate. He's not a messiah. There are no messiahs."

The true significance of a Paul victory would not be the manifestation of his messianic power, but rather a bellwether for a population ready to throw off the yoke of corporate dominance.

Some dudes in South Carolina attacked a fort. Does that justify invading Virginia?

I don't follow how that would be the remedy. Sounds like a respond to Al Qaeda by attacking Iraq type reasoning.

Also there is a distinction between a band of rebels creating an insurrection and a legislative body from a state in a union of states declaring its independence. ala the Soviet Union breakup...

How is the secession of Georgia from the Soviet Union legitimate but the secession of our Georgia from the United States illegitimate?

What am I missing?

Dr. Ron Paul clearly demonstrated that he is the best truth-warrior of any candidate. This was a great interview....every hardball thrown was hit out of the ballpark.

Did you otice how they left out the original question regarding Ron Pual's fascist statement regardingg Huck's Xmas ad from the original taped interview? Instead, Tim changes the nature of the original question, and then plays Ron Paul's taped answer, which was not his complete answer, thus, taking Ron Paul's statement out of context.
Yet, Ron Paul was still able to effectively answer the question.

The Iran / Mars reference was priceless!! LOL

They tried to make him appear anti-Isreal, but it back-fired. Ron Paul revealed that his policies would greatly help Israel. This should headline news, but the corporate media will not mention the fact that if we stopped giving our hard earned tax money to all the Middle East countries.

Ron Paul revealed the injustice and abuse of the Federal Government and how the Neo-Cons trample our rights, and state rights by arresting sick people who are legally using medical marijauna and putting them into jail. He clearly demonstrated the hypocrisy and abuse of the govt. on the war on drugs, torture, etc.

Ron Paul's facial expressions were priceless, looking at Tim in disbelief in not understanding that amendments to the Constitution IS Consitutional.

Ron Paul clearly demonstrated that he has what it takes to take on ANYONE, and has raised more money than any other Republican. There is very good change that he will the next President of these United States of America.

Wrong Jason,
We have a Constitution. We are born with rights, given to us by our creator and the governement was created to SERVE us. Get it. Serve the people. That's why we have the right to replace it/them if they fail to protect the CONSTITUTION. "Every citizen is a "subject" of two sovereigns" You're joking, right? Once again, The citizen has allowed the government to serve them. "We the people" serve no one. Perhaps you have the wrong country.

Jason C,

"The Southern states had no right to secede. The system we have is one of dual sovereignty; from the time the United States was formed, it was the acknowledged legitimate government over all the land that fell within its boundaries."

I am happy to agree with you. Can you tell me where this understanding was written down somewhere? Is it in the Constitution? What other documents formed the Union? Is it in one of those?

"Some dudes in South Carolina attacked a fort. Does that justify invading Virginia?

I don't follow how that would be the remedy. Sounds like a respond to Al Qaeda by attacking Iraq type reasoning."


Some dudes? You mean the confederate army? You don't see the difference between responding to an attack by an agressive army, and invading a country that had nothing to do with 911? Really? Are you aware South Carolina and Virgina were both a part of the confederacy? You're acting like they were as unrelated as Iraq and Al Qaeda.

I want to put aside my fears and go for what is right and what is good, and put aside what might be at best a splint while a break heals, to walk, eventually to run. We need to shed the civil rights laws as written.

Some dudes in South Carolina attacked a fort. Does that justify invading Virginia?

The Virginians and South Carolinans were in it together. The Confederate States of America was a very real entity, unlike a hypothetical Al-Q/Iraq alliance. If the CSA didn't like it, they should have expelled SC and begged the U.S. not to go after them. Heck, seeing how secessionist SC has been since nullification, they probably could have been convinced to secede from the Confederate States.

Can you tell me where this understanding was written down somewhere? Is it in the Constitution? What other documents formed the Union? Is it in one of those?

The ability of states to secede from the union is a settled legal question. We fought a war over it. The seceding states lost.

If you need textual references though, let's go the Constitution . . .

Art. I, Sec. 10

No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation

Art. VI

This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.

Calling all dudes...

From Wiki:"The South sent delegations to Washington and offered to pay for the federal properties and enter into a peace treaty with the United States. Lincoln rejected any negotiations with Confederate agents on the grounds that the Confederacy was not a legitimate government, and that making any treaty with it would be tantamount to recognition of it as a sovereign government."

Sounds like Lincoln officially considered them 'some dudes' and not from a legitimate army.

All the young dudes...

From Wiki:"The South sent delegations to Washington and offered to pay for the federal properties and enter into a peace treaty with the United States. Lincoln rejected any negotiations with Confederate agents on the grounds that the Confederacy was not a legitimate government, and that making any treaty with it would be tantamount to recognition of it as a sovereign government."

Sounds like Lincoln officially considered them 'some dudes' and not from a legitimate army.

It seems to me that since the States created the Federal government through a contract and also made it weak by design that the intention was to always leave open the option of secession if the contract was violated. The north (federal government) violated the contract then and continues to violate its contract on a hundred counts with the states today.

I would love to see a state such as California, Wyoming or New Hampshire secede. I guess the federal government would just bomb them into the stone age...?

Southpaw,

You are correct, We fought a war over it. That settled the legal question. No doubt.

But the legal question existed. Art I and VI can both be read to be speaking of the action of the states WHILE IN THE UNION.

The legal question was settled by violence not legal argument.

Mike M quotes and writes: ""Our once great nation will be lost forever if this election is not taken by Ron Paul."

When Paul's supporters make statements like that it reinforces the idea that he's running a cult, not a campaign. Similar claims are made by LaRouchies. Ron Paul is a political candidate. He's not a messiah. There are no messiahs."

The true significance of a Paul victory would not be the manifestation of his messianic power, but rather a bellwether for a population ready to throw off the yoke of corporate dominance."

Ron Paul is as likely to be an effective anti-corporation President as I am to win the upcoming NBA Slam Dunk contest at the All Star game. It's funny how his followers are ascribing all sorts of magical powers to him.

The South commenced hostilities?

Well, Fort Sumter was in the Confederacy, and was occupied by Northern Troops at the time the South shot a few rounds at it (causing zero casualties), wasn't it?

Isn't holding a military position in someone else's territory a military provocation? Isn't a non-lethal warning barrage a reasonable response?

(If you are still SHOCKED that we are likely to be attacked when we occupy other peoples' territory, you are not paying very close attention to Dr. Paul. See Current Day Middle East)

By that time, the Northern States had already mobilized their militias, and were ready for war. Lincoln specifically ordered Northern Troops to hold Fort Sumter, and must have known that this would provoke some forceful response from the Confederacy. He clearly engineered the start of the war, and was ready when it started.

Lincoln's response to Fort Sumter was to frantically recruit 75,000 additional troops and start massacring people without further ado.

Tennessee, Arkansas, North Carolina, and Virginia were so offended that, after consistently refusing to join the Confederacy, they succeeded too.

We are born with rights, given to us by our creator and the governement was created to SERVE us. Get it. Serve the people. That's why we have the right to replace it/them if they fail to protect the CONSTITUTION.

Sure. But now you're getting into fundamental questions about the legitimacy of government. Of course rebellion is justified sometimes - it's how the country was formed.

But this basically places the Confederate States on the level of, say, Timothy McVeigh, considering the heinousness of the "cause" they were fighting for. They were engaged in open rebellion against the United States. But many apologists for the Confederacy seem to want to deny this fundamental truth. They want to treat secession like a perfectly legal move that was met with unprovoked violence by the North, rather than what it was - an attempt to overthrow the federal government.

Sometimes, trying to overthrow the government is warranted, I'll be the first person to grant. Whether it was justified for the Southern slaveholders and their representatives is another question; I don't think it was. But regardless, we shouldn't act like it was anything but what it was: a revolt.

Addison types: "Tennessee, Arkansas, North Carolina, and Virginia were so offended that, after consistently refusing to join the Confederacy, they succeeded too."

They didn't succeed. Like the rest of the slavery-loving Confederacy, they got their asses kicked.

And deservedly so, no matter what Macaca Allen and his fans think.

gunther,

Being a Ron Paul supporter I know that you did not once consider him because Ron Paul haters have the same pattern in their writing. So yeah, don't lie.

"Ron Paul is as likely to be an effective anti-corporation President as I am to win the upcoming NBA Slam Dunk contest at the All Star game. "

That is true if you believe that corporate power is exercised against the state. If you believe corporate power is exercised through the state, the picture looks somewhat different. I don't think it's an unreasonable argument.

Ron Paul on Meet The Candidate Part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9BJGrsqPY0


Ron Paul on Meet The Candidate Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EN6BZOT_9w


Ron Paul on Meet The Candidate Part 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IwevF2cIhM


Ron Paul on Meet The Candidate Part 4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ns7hbk_A4Q

Article is misleading, watch it for yourself!

Ron Paul on Meet The Candidate Part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9BJGrsqPY0


Ron Paul on Meet The Candidate Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EN6BZOT_9w


Ron Paul on Meet The Candidate Part 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IwevF2cIhM


Ron Paul on Meet The Candidate Part 4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ns7hbk_A4Q

The secession was over slavery. The war was started over "Union", not slavery. The war then morphed, as they are wont to do; Lincoln expected a cakewalk. Eventually the war ended up being about slavery.

But it did not start over slavery or anything high-minded. It started as a central state attempting to squash a secession. The irony is, of course, that that same state had successfully seceded, itself, just four score and change years earlier.

People don't understand the cause of the war much any more, because to our modern minds the idea that a democratic state would attack its equally democratic neighbor only to assert a "right to rule" it is so astoundingly illiberal. We believe in the right of self government, even though we don't have it.

"In Ron Paul's America, it would be perfectly legal for Denny's to hang a big "Whites Only" sign outside their restaurant."

And thus expose the bastards for what they are? Let's WELCOME it.

Tennessee, Arkansas, North Carolina, and Virginia were so offended that, after consistently refusing to join the Confederacy, they succeeded too

Admittedly, through the hindsight of historical retrospect, the federal government should have made a greater effort to keep the border states from slipping. But that is a question for alternate history, as is the prospect of Robert E. Lee fighting for the Union and the war ending in half the time.

Lincoln specifically ordered Northern Troops to hold Fort Sumter, and must have known that this would provoke some forceful response from the Confederacy. He clearly engineered the start of the war, and was ready when it started

Well, if the CSA had the moral high-ground, then they should had peaceably went their slavering way, instead of taking the bait, shouldn't they? But they did, and they shelled Fort Sumter, so it was their fault.

Lincoln's response to Fort Sumter was to frantically recruit 75,000 additional troops and start massacring people without further ado.

Massacring people?

And to play the Wikipedia-quoting game, "Similar Unionist secessions [like West Virginia] attempts appeared in East Tennessee, but were suppressed by the Confederacy. Jefferson Davis arrested over 3000 men suspected of being loyal to the Union and held them without trial."

Well, it doesn't seem that the CSA had such a high opinion of secession, either. How hypocritical of them.

And to go back to Ron Paul- the point that the U.S. was the only country to have a war to end slavery is interesting (though I'm not sure of its accuracy; Latin America had its own wars where slavery was an issue), but then so is the point that if U.S. had stuck it through in the British Empire it would have became independent without bloodshed, either. Which is to say that seeing opportunities in historical retrospect are pretty useless besides for entertainment value.

Gotta love these replies:

"There's no connection between white supremacy and Ron Paul's libertarianism, and Southern Secession was too completely justified."

Leonard writes: "People don't understand the cause of the war much any more, because to our modern minds the idea that a democratic state would attack its equally democratic neighbor only to assert a "right to rule" it is so astoundingly illiberal."

Wow. I'm trying to comprehend a mind which could say that a society BASED on slavery and one which has (for the most part) abandoned and condemned slavery are "equally democratic."

I can't do it.

This is a truly amazing election cycle we are having. When has the Civil War, the legality of the Federal Reserve and the IRS even been mentioned in Presidential politics? I don't think it has occurred in about a century. At the least Paul is someone who brings interesting and possibly valid arguments into the light where they belong. At best he will be a president who restores the required conflict in Washington that brings about sound and well deliberated policies which put the American citizens interests first.

"Sounds like Lincoln officially considered them 'some dudes' and not from a legitimate army. "

No, he considered them illegitimate rebels, but he wasn't confused that they used actual armies. You're the only person that seems to think they were just a loose group of ne'er do wells.

"Well, Fort Sumter was in the Confederacy, and was occupied by Northern Troops at the time the South shot a few rounds at it (causing zero casualties), wasn't it?

Isn't holding a military position in someone else's territory a military provocation? Isn't a non-lethal warning barrage a reasonable response?"

No, military bases exist on federal land, owned by the federal government. States don't have the right to unilaterally take back land they agreed to cede to the federal government.

There are a lot of Republicans who are pro Confederate - Ron Paul was just less discrete.

As someone who spends time in the south from time to time - I can report back that there a quite a number of people, in the Party of Lincoln, who have revisionist views re Fort Sumter to Appomattox.

Gosh Moe, maybe you should consider the United States before secession if you want a democratic slave state. You know, the one the Union troops were fighting for, up until the emancipation proclamation?

That didn't hurt so much, did it?

Russert and the rest of the talking heads have no clue. This is NOT about Ron Paul or what he said 4 years ago or 20 years ago. What this is about is Americans are so fed up that want massive change. Americans are electing themselves through Ron Paul. American's see things they like that Ron Paul says and know he is so honest and truthful that he will do what he says or try damn hard to get it done. It doesn't matter if Ron Paul can't abolish the Income tax, but maybe he can abolish the IRS or the Central Bank. They know he WILL get out of Iraq and stop the war as quickly as possible. They know their rights will be safer with him, they know the world would respect a Ron Paul Administration more than any other candidate.

Its Americans electing themselves.

I just love all of these hair-splitting arguments about racism, Messiah, and the lunacy of gold versus the Federal Reserve.
Someone even posted about "property rights."

Now, are we getting what's right in front of our noses? The Fed is taking property to secure business (by Eminent Domain) despite protestations of the locals. The Anglos and pseudo-Anglos (France, Canada, Britain, US, et al) are banding together to eviscerate the Arabs (racism, economic or otherwise). The Central Banks deal in gold to balance the money flows--but the citizens are told that it is "kooky" to believe in a gold standard. And as for Messiah, and the relevancy to the political process, just see what is in front of your nose--Romney and Huckabee, both awash in religious blather.

Please, can we stop thinking of why Lincoln or Johnson did this or that, and start thinking about how we can get out of the mess that Bush I, Clinton, and Bush II have wrought? The discussion is not on 1864, or 1964, but on 2008. And, quite frankly, as most of the mainstream candidates are talking about a world that does not exist--either on paper or in reality--we're going to have to go with Paul or someone else outside the available pool. That's the point of the discussion.

maybe you should consider the United States before secession if you want a democratic slave state. You know, the one the Union troops were fighting for, up until the emancipation proclamation?

The U.S., unlike the C.S., wasn't set up solely for the purpose of continuing slavery. As one can see by comparing the two's constitutions:

http://www.filibustercartoons.com/CSA.htm

This election is not about the civil war. That battle is already won......(or lost). Don't let this obscur philo-distraction steal the day.

Paul did an OK job this morning. He did not say anything that killed him but he did not sound Presidential enough to change the minds of many people. A few perhaps, but not many.

I think credit should be given to Tim Russert. First he had Ron Paul on the show. The rest of the talking heads have not done that.

Second, he treated Paul like any other candidate. He grilled him about his positions on real issues. He could have sought to marginalize Paul by talking about contributions from white supremacists or past associations with conspiracy theory nut jobs. Instead he have Paul the chance to talk about the IRS, the Constitution and Foriegn Policy. The questions were tough, but they were fair and on the issues.


Lincoln sent a naval force to Charlston to reinforce the fort. If it had reached the harbor before the fort was secured by the South Carolina forces they would have lost control of the harbor. Also, Virginia had not voted at that time to leave the union, but was in the process.

Freddie, "And, you know, the "War of Northern Aggression" rhetoric aside, it was the South that began hostilities against the North."

The South didn't start it. It's called blowback. Lincoln sent troops to SC and set them on an island in Charleston Harbor with cannons pointed at homes. Reckon you would have a problem with someone moving into your neighborhood and pointing a cannon at your home?

They didn't move in, the Fort was already there.

area where libertarian ideology and white supremacist ideology just so happens to overlap, but there you have it -- overlap
with white supremacist ideology.

Matt Y. believes that communism is bad. So did the Nazis. It just so happens that Matt's ideology overlaps with Nazi ideology, but there you have it -- overlap with Nazi ideology.

Wow. That was hard.

Isn't holding a military position in someone else's territory a military provocation? - mad6798j

How can you possibly be an American and not have your head explode? When US troops come under fire in Iraq or Afghanistan, or if they came under fire in Cuba, South Korea, Japan, Germany, Ethiopia, Kuwait, and so forth, would you accept that the US had started it?

Oh, sorry mad6798j - you were citing some weirdo. I repeat my flabbergastery, but directed at the weirdo.

It was well known and accepted when the constitution was accepted, that the states had the right of seccession. Two of the states, I belive NY was one, explictedly stated in their radification of the constitution that they retained the right to leave the union, but it was common knowledge that the states were the key elements of the union, not the new federal government, and that each could leave the union at will. This is what the civil war destroyed...the preemident position of the states over the federal government, and this is what needs to be reestablished. We used to be "the United States are..." but we have become "the United States is..." We need to get back to "are" with the states being the main part of the union...and, of course, "the people" above each of the states they live in. And the "interstate commerce clause" needs to be interpreted as it was during the first 60 years or so and as it was meant...simple to prevent the states from taxing or otherwise interfering with goods from other states...not as an invitation to the federal government managing all trade in the country.

Yeah, but I've had arguments with libertarians where they seriously endorsed slavery in the context of indentured servitude based on freedom of contract.

I really don't know if that's huffing the gas fumes of your ideology to death or white supremacy, but the end result is going to be really ugly and not without a racial dimension.

" Like the rest of the slavery-loving Confederacy, they got their asses kicked.

And deservedly so, no matter what Macaca Allen and his fans think."

There's a certain irony in a lefty like MoeLarryJesus gloating about the Union victory in the Civil War. Had he been alive then, he would probably have been rioting against the war and refusing to serve, just like the Democrats in New York did. A century and a half later, they're all hawks.

"The Anglos and pseudo-Anglos (France, Canada, Britain, US, et al) are banding together to eviscerate the Arabs (racism, economic or otherwise)"

You must be on crack. The "Anglos" found the fucking oil under the Arab countries, showed them how to extract it, and entered into joint ventures with them to produce the oil (e.g., ARAMCO). The Arabs nationalized these joint ventures and kept all the money for themselves. Now the Arabs are buying our largest banks with their sovereign wealth funds full of petrodollars they would never have earned without the "Anglos".

"This is what the civil war destroyed...the preemident position of the states over the federal government, and this is what needs to be reestablished"

The direct election of Senators further weakened the position of the states relative to the federal government, as did the establishment of the federal income tax.

Charles Martel writes: "Gosh Moe, maybe you should consider the United States before secession if you want a democratic slave state. You know, the one the Union troops were fighting for, up until the emancipation proclamation?

That didn't hurt so much, did it?"

Since I don't see any scenario in which a victorious Union would have continued the slave state, I'll dismiss that question as pointless.

It requires pretending that the tensions over slavery weren't the major cause of the war, and unlike apologists for the slavery-loving Confederacy I'm not stupid enough to buy it.

Quietus --

That is a fantastic site, but I don't see what bearing it has on my point. Had the South surrendered after one week, would we say the Union had been fighting to make itself a less democratic country? I suppose we would.

I would think this notion might sober a man drunk on his own (historical) righteousness, but perhaps not.

The Arabs nationalized these joint ventures and kept all the money for themselves.

Not to get in the way of your little indignation rally or anything, and if the interests of the people of Saudi Arabia meant anything I'd say good for them, but Saudi Aramco is still kicking back one hell of an amount of money the other way for no particular great reason.

"Had the South surrendered after one week, would we say the Union had been fighting to make itself a less democratic country? I suppose we would."

That does not even begin to make sense. The South seceded because it wanted to protect its peculiar institution, and because it feared that the (democratic) ascension of Lincoln would threaten it. The site's analysis shows that. It doesn't matter how long the war lasted; in either case, the South had been fighting for the undemocratic institution of slavery, and had undemocratically rejected the election of Lincoln. The timeframe of the war matters not.

Harry quotes and writes: " " Like the rest of the slavery-loving Confederacy, they got their asses kicked.

And deservedly so, no matter what Macaca Allen and his fans think."

There's a certain irony in a lefty like MoeLarryJesus gloating about the Union victory in the Civil War. Had he been alive then, he would probably have been rioting against the war and refusing to serve, just like the Democrats in New York did. A century and a half later, they're all hawks. "

Now amazing is it for a conservative these days to be calling ME a chickenhawk? The Bushpigs are complete and total chickenhawks almost to a man, and their hero Dumbya drank his way into an honorable discharge while AWOL.

My family arrived here much later, but has served more time in the US military than the entire Bush family has since WW2. The US hasn't fought a war of necessity since then. (I'll grant a partial exemption for Korea, when my immigrant father served.)

As an outside observer of the Ron Paul effect (I'm Canadian), I watched the whole interview and if anything I felt Ron Paul answered every question in detail and came across as an extremely honest individual with a good head on his shoulders. To me it seemed as if Tim got more frustrated and desperate in his line of questioning as the interview went on. He was clearly flustered that he didn’t fluster the good doctor.

I'd say Paul did pretty darn good and so would any other semi-intelligent viewer who watched the interview from start to finish.

I’m sorry but I’m not completely sure what you were watching or your intelligence level after this article.

And just to clarify, whether Paul wins or not is of no consequence to me but I did honestly feel as if he walked away a winner in this interview.

The days of voters falling for smooth talking politicians are long gone. Sometimes Dr. Paul’s odd fumble and stutter only proves how human and genuine he really is.

People are waking up. Get it?

What is all this talk about the constitution, history and philosophy? Don't you people know that what is good is of Jesus and what is bad is is bad because the winners of wars said it was bad.
This stuff don't have to be so complex.
See Ron Paul "the freedom elf" wants to get everyone talking about the Constitution, Liberty this, free market that... Don't he know, that it don't matter what that piece of paper says, it is all about the good book of the lord and central banking. Would God have let Satan's army succeed from the union of Heaven?

If the Constitution is a contract between the People and the Federal government, then it can't be that ONLY the Federal government can determine when the contract has been broken. The States (the People's Agent) must also be able to determine when the contract is broken since there is no outside third party that may objectively judge. If the contract is deemed broken, then it is null and void, and the party aggressed against has every right to ignore future obligations of the compact. The South had the right to secede, as any state does today, as the Lakota (Sioux) has just done this month. [search "Lakota secede" - and wait until they start filing liens to Federal property]

"Resolved - that the several states composing the United States of America are not united on the principles of unlimited submission to their general government, but that by compact under the style and title of a constitution for the United States and of amendments thereto, they constituted a general government for special purposes, delegated to that government certain definite powers, reserving each state to itself the residuary mass of right to their own self government. And that whensoever the general government assumes undelegated powers its acts are unauthoritative, void, and of no force.

"Now to this compact each state acceded as a state and is an integral party, its co-states forming as to itself the other party, that the government created by this compact was not made the exclusive or final judge of the extent of the powers delegated to itself, since that would have made its discretion and not the constitution the measure of its powers. But that, as in all other cases of compact among parties having no common judge, each party has an equal right to judge of itself as well of infractions as of the mode and measure of redress." -Thomas Jefferson

If the Constitution is a contract between the People and the Federal government, then it can't be that ONLY the Federal government can determine when the contract has been broken. The States (the People's Agent) must also be able to determine when the contract is broken since there is no outside third party that may objectively judge. If the contract is deemed broken, then it is null and void, and the party aggressed against has every right to ignore future obligations of the compact. The South had the right to secede, as any state does today, as the Lakota (Sioux) has just done this month. [search "Lakota secede" - and wait until they start filing liens to Federal property]

"Resolved - that the several states composing the United States of America are not united on the principles of unlimited submission to their general government, but that by compact under the style and title of a constitution for the United States and of amendments thereto, they constituted a general government for special purposes, delegated to that government certain definite powers, reserving each state to itself the residuary mass of right to their own self government. And that whensoever the general government assumes undelegated powers its acts are unauthoritative, void, and of no force.

"Now to this compact each state acceded as a state and is an integral party, its co-states forming as to itself the other party, that the government created by this compact was not made the exclusive or final judge of the extent of the powers delegated to itself, since that would have made its discretion and not the constitution the measure of its powers. But that, as in all other cases of compact among parties having no common judge, each party has an equal right to judge of itself as well of infractions as of the mode and measure of redress." -Thomas Jefferson

Just because you've made the same typo a few times now using different handles, the word you are looking for is not succeed it's secede.

They're having paid political operatives pose as Huckabee supporters to discredit him on blog comment sections of the Atlantic Online now?

The "Anglos" found the fucking oil under the Arab countries, - Harry

Property rights are great until you start wanting somebody else's property, innit?

Quietus --

It does make sense. The Union was purged of its slaveholding evil twin by secession. Giving up the slaves was not a condition of reunification until the emancipation proclamation. Previously, Lincoln had even supported an amendment to the constitution guaranteeing the right of slave states to keep owning slaves. Had the South not seceeded, or had they returned quickly, the slaves would not have been freed.

Until the emancipation proclamation, the civil war was just the Union trying to swallow its own vomit.

Property rights are great until you start wanting somebody else's property, innit?

Oh, no! You aren't understanding property rights correctly. It's all about contracts, you can make a contract to sell anything (even if it's not yours!), and by god it's an totalitarianism if that paper get's null and voided for any reason. If the illiterate ass House of Saud made a deal, it's a deal and the population of people living above the oil be damned. You haven't dealt with these people enough.

"Property rights are great until you start wanting somebody else's property, innit?"

Interesting to see where the concept of "property rights" takes you in the context of the Middle East. Arabia (and, conceivably, the oil under it) was the "property" of the Hashemites for centuries until a backward tribe called the Saudis beat them in a desert scuffle. Britain then cleaved off 80% of its Palestine Mandate to give to the Hashemites. Unfortunately for the Hashemites, that booby prize didn't have any oil.

So here's a question for you: If Britain, the U.S., or another country forcibly took the oil-containing region from the Saudis, that oil would now be the property of the new country -- just as 'legitimately' as it is now the property of the Hashemites, no? Of course, that's not how we roll. We prefer to pay $90 per barrel for oil and get called imperialists by ignorant leftists, instead of acting like real imperialists and taking the oil.

If America is an empire, we must be the first one to practice negative tribute.

We prefer to pay $90 per barrel for oil and get called imperialists by ignorant leftists, instead of acting like real imperialists and taking the oil.

No, that was what Iraq was supposed to be about until the wheels came off. We're just failed imperialists.

Harry, empires never get tribute for the people of the empire, they get tribute for the emperors. The emperors are the special interests like big oil that run Washington. The empire taxes its people to defend the special interests' assets in foreign nations. The emperors (the special interests) exploit the empire (the Americna people and foreigners) for their own benefit.

Remember, you as a citizen of the empire are not part of the ruling elite, and therefore don't share in the bounties of the empire. The empire is an exploitation machine and American people are one of the groups that is exploited.

"If America is an empire, we must be the first one to practice negative tribute"

Not true at all. The Romans used to pay off German kings all the time.

One reason Rome fell was because the empire became such a destructive exploitation machine that the provinces of the Roman empire became weak and poor and susceptible to invasion from the German invaders.

America today is facing total financial collapse:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGpY2hw7ao8

"..the point that the U.S. was the only country to have a war to end slavery is interesting (though I'm not sure of its accuracy; Latin America had its own wars where slavery was an issue),.."

It is an accurate statement. Far and away the largest slave nation (and just plain largest nation) other than the USA, was Brazil, and they ended slavery about 20 years after the USA did, peaceably, and finally by purchasing the freedom of the remaining slaves.

Apropos of nothing, the city of Americana in Sao Paulo State was founded by disgruntled US Confederates after the Civil War.

Lincoln was as concerned (appropriately so) about big capitalist interests prolonging the Civil War as we are about today's corporate-government war exploiters.

Once again, Dr. Paul has historic accuracy on his side.

And George Bernard Shaw is also probably right: "The only thing we learn from history is that we never learn from history."

Good luck as you watch the dollar and civil liberty slowly circle the drain. If you check out Mr. Romney and Bain Capital and all its corporate and private banking connections, you will see that Lincoln, Roosevelt(T), Eisenhower, and now Paul are all on point in their warnings. And GBS' observation means we won't get it.

Regards

People have to understand that Dr. Paul's message brings people together. It doesn't matter if you're a liberal or a conservative or a independent. We are all for freedom and liberty. His message is for the American people. It's why he's so appealing. I don't know how America survived for so long without leaders like Ron Paul.

Ron Paul rLOVEution!

These Matt's comments are anti-White and therefore racist.

Support Ron Paul, he is for freedom!

When has the Civil War, the legality of the Federal Reserve and the IRS even been mentioned in Presidential politics?

Not for some time, and for good reason.

The only reason we are talking about them now is because there is a quasi-mainstream candidate who would like to turn back the clock - not just erasing the civil rights gains of the 1960s, but those of the 1860s as well.

Yes, let's have a conversation over THAT. Let's talk about whether Jim Crow laws were A-OK. Let's talk about appointing judges who will overturn Brown v. Board of Education. Hey, maybe we should repeal the fifteenth amendment! Let's have a discussion about that!

While we're at it: is it really rape if she's his wife? Doesn't the sovereign rule by divine right? And come to think of it - why did we ever give up on human sacrifice? When were these issues even mentioned in a presidential campaign?

These Matt's comments are anti-White and therefore racist.

Support Ron Paul, he is for freedom!

well I was undecided but reading these posts I have decided on voting for Ron Paul. Thanks for all the supporters who have reasoned and used intellegence to stand by our candidate... I was a huckabee supporter but reality set in.

Here is AOLs Spamproof Strawpoll results

lhttp://news.aol.com/political-machine/2007/12/21/straw-poll-dec-21-jan-4/

These are real polls, not fabricated kind in the mainstream.

All those people immediately discounting the idea that maybe the civil war was about more than just slavery might want to check out Abraham Lincoln's 1st inaugural address. I think it pretty much puts to rest the notion that Lincoln was some sort of anti-slavery crusader. As with almost all wars: follow the money.

Abraham Lincoln, 1861(http://www.bartleby.com/124/pres31.html):

"Apprehension seems to exist among the people of the Southern States that by the accession of a Republican Administration their property and their peace and personal security are to be endangered. There has never been any reasonable cause for such apprehension. Indeed, the most ample evidence to the contrary has all the while existed and been open to their inspection. It is found in nearly all the published speeches of him who now addresses you. I do but quote from one of those speeches when I declare that—
I have no purpose, directly or indirectly, to interfere with the institution of slavery in the States where it exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so.
Those who nominated and elected me did so with full knowledge that I had made this and many similar declarations and had never recanted them; and more than this, they placed in the platform for my acceptance, and as a law to themselves and to me, the clear and emphatic resolution which I now read:
'Resolved, That the maintenance inviolate of the rights of the States, and especially the right of each State to order and control its own domestic institutions according to its own judgment exclusively, is essential to that balance of power on which the perfection and endurance of our political fabric depend; and we denounce the lawless invasion by armed force of the soil of any State or Territory, no matter what pretext, as among the gravest of crimes.'"

If the Constitution is a contract between the People and the Federal government, then it can't be that ONLY the Federal government can determine when the contract has been broken. The States (the People's Agent) must also be able to determine when the contract is broken since there is no outside third party that may objectively judge.

There is a fundamental flaw in your reasoning - the states are by no means "the People's Agent" vis-a-vis the federal government. That ain't how it works.

Running with your contract analogy, I'll note that the Confederacy hadn't pointed to any "breach" on the part of the national government. They just wanted out of it. And even if they had been able to demonstrate some breach, every violation of a contract provision doesn't necessarily void the whole contract.

The "contract" was a contract between the states, but it was also a contract between the national government and American citizens - directly, not with the states serving as "agents." Looked at correctly, the seceding states were third parties to the contract, and had no right to interfere with its execution. For instance, the Constitution grants every citizen certain rights. The act of secession was an attempt to destroy those guarantees.

Support Ron Paul, he is for freedom!

Come to cases, though, it seems he's for slavery.

Okay, Harry, I'm on crack--if that serves you. But your counter-argument misses the point, if I may say. I agree with you: the Anglos have set up a consortium of Arab states that are friendly to the U.S. and that extract oil based on our technology, etc. No beef here.

The concern I have regards the unlimited use of power to convert an Arabic/Islamic empire into a westernized, "democratic" entity. So, by your reasoning, it is OK for us to dictate and control their future because we gave them the technology? The same with China? The same with India?

Just because the politicians are lazy, ignorant, and idealistic about their grand schemes, and enslaved to the idea of multinational corporations, does not mean that we common Americans have to buy into this philosophy. The Arabs/Islamists may rightly protect what they have, as we protect what we have. That is the nature of commerce and nationalism. Both concepts are not bad, though we have been led to believe otherwise.

How would you like it if the Arabs/Islamists raided the USA because they thought we stole their ideas about Algebra? How many textbooks would be lost?

Nevertheless, I feel that I am arguing against the two problems that we face today: the USA is always right (chauvinism) and the USA has the right to take anything it needs (jingoism). Both of these are powerful concepts--and a danger to us all. Please think about that.

This is what the civil war destroyed...the preemident position of the states over the federal government, and this is what needs to be reestablished.

This is what Paulites always say, but they never explain exactly why this supposed preeminence of the states - which seems hard to reconcile with Article VI, clause 2 of the Constitution, but whatever - is the way it ought to be. They seem to think it's self-evident or something.

Even if we accept your version of United States history, Paulites never provide any compelling justification for why we ought to return to this state of affairs. If you hadn't noticed, "states' rights" didn't always turn out so well, at least for some people.

To view the 50 states as being tyrannized by the federal government because of anti-discrimination and minimum wage laws - that's just craziness. For the sake of Christ - you people are actually arguing for a return to the Lochner era! And we're supposed to take this guy seriously? We're supposed to be grateful for his "contributions" to the campaign?

Thanks but no thanks. Ron Paul is an authoritarian through and through - he just wants the authority to be exercised at the state level. The freedom he cares about is the freedom of state governments to tyrannize their people.

"first they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win."

-Ghandi

This quote fits so perfectly with what's happening to RP right now. We are in the "ridicule" stage. After Jan 3rd, we will move to the "fight" stage.

RP LOVE!!!

Jason C.,

We are much better off giving the power back to the states than the federal government. If the feds are corrupt, no one can stop them. What they will do is censor everything (much like they are doing now). If a state is corrupt, it will be all over the news because it's 1 in 50. It's much more difficult to be corrupt state-wise because people can just look at other states and say "hey, wtf, why are you taking our freedom when Wisconsin is free?"

That's what Flat-Earthers and 9/11 Truthers said too, love.

Obscurity and ridicule do not make you Gandhi.

Your point?

Jason --

You left out drug laws, environmental laws and education policy. And drinking age laws. And the RealID program. Like many liberals, you seem to have not read a paper in the last 40 years. The institutions of central authority set up in the middle of the century have been taken over by the people they were meant to guard against. You live in a country that re-elected George Bush. California can't set its own air quality laws, while Congress debates the contents of Barry Bonds's urine and hurls us into a ten trillion dollar pit.

Technology, business, the military are all focused on the power of decentralization. But in government, you have to cheer on the central planners or somebody calls you a slaver. If you can keep control of the monstrosity in Washington, why didn't you do it in 2004? If you can't, why do you insist on putting all of everybody's eggs in that one basket?

I'm sort of alarmed that some of the Ron Paul supporters here seem to think that he actually stands a snowball's chance in hell of winning anything.

I understand the appeal of a protest candidate. I even understand the basic idea of supporting Ron Paul because you think he adds something to the discussion that would otherwise be lacking.

But to think that Ron Paul is going to win??? Guys, I mean this as a friend: that's delusional. If Ron Paul manages to hit double digits in a single primary, you should consider that a victory and be proud of what you've accomplished.

But he won't be winning anything. Ron Paul is not going to be the next president. He's not going to be the Republican nominee. Understand: Ron Paul himself fully realizes this. Listen to his interviews - he's under no illusions in this regard.

Even if by some miracle he managed to win in New Hampshire - and it would be a miracle - the GOP establishment would move in and crush him faster than you can say "John McCain in 2000." For all the railing against the establishment, some Paulites seem rather naive about how Republican primaries work. Here's a hint: candidates don't win the nomination unless the party establishment wants them to. Period.

And besides - Huckabee's stolen your man's thunder. He's the "insurgent" candidate du jour. Watch carefully as an enormous shitstorm is dropped directly on top of his little head in the months to come, as the GOP party establishment makes damn sure he doesn't get anywhere near the nomination. THAT is what would happen to Ron Paul on a moment's notice, if the party thought for a second that he was actually a threat.

I agree with Moe: Ron Paul is not a messiah.

You left out drug laws, environmental laws and education policy. And drinking age laws. And the RealID program.

Well, first of all, drinking age laws are state laws, not federal ones.

Second of all, I'm glad we have environmental laws; indeed we should have more and stricter environmental laws - even though that would impede on the "freedom" of GM. If your argument is that we need Ron Paul to free us from the tyranny of emissions standards ... well, see how well that flies with the electorate. The fact that you would point to environmental laws as evidence of federal tyranny is very, very telling. Is there any form of progress that you guys don't want to roll back?


Am I a fan of the war on drugs? No. I never said or meant to imply that every federal law or policy is a wise one. Far fucking from it!

But you know what? I'm not willing to trade minimum wage laws, environmental protections, and constitutional privacy rights for a repeal of the drug laws, or any other federal laws you can point to that I don't like.

It's as simple as this: Ron Paul believes that states should be allowed to dictate their citizens' behavior to an extraordinary degree. He believes, inter alia, that if a state legislature so decides, its residents should be subject to criminal prosecution for using birth control, having abortions, or engaging in sexual intercourse with the someone of the same gender. That is simply indefensible. The authority of the federal government can and should be used to prevent the states from tyrannizing their citizens in this manner.

Oh my god - I forgot the nuttiest thing about Ron Paul:

He believes in the NAFTA Superhighway/North American Union urban legend/conspiracy theory!!!!

Easily as nutty as Kucinich with his UFOs.

So look: if you're a John Bircher and/or paranoid schizophrenic, by all means, Ron Paul is your man.

I never quite understood the NAU conspiracy. Are they saying that they government is going to secretly foist it upon the American people? Because taking on the United Nations One World Nation is one thing (they have black helicopters!), but taking on an even more bloated national government that's merged with Mexico and Canada? That's easy.

Jason --

Drinking age laws are state laws, but if your state chooses any age other than 21, it loses federal highway funding. Just like with NCLB & education funding.

And regarding the environment, you did read the part about California, no? Then why do you go on this random rant about "you guys"? Naturally, you just saw what you expected to see, rather than what was really there. That should be a lesson. You still imagine the Federal government is up there looking out for you, like the powerful and benevolent diety.

Your last paragraph shows it -- without limitations on Federal power, it can do all of those things to all citizens, not just those unfortunate enough to live in Alabama. You say Ron Paul supporters are delusional, but you imagine Roe v. Wade will hold up after President Huckabee's appointments. Now that is truly kooky. When the fetus is granted equal protection under the 14th amendment, you'll beg for state's rights. It's all the same pattern: you elevate the decison to the national level for the easy win, you lose control at the national level, the power you created is used against you in the big loss.

The states want tougher environmental protection than the Federal government allows and they have to cross their fingers and sue to see if they're allowed. Your right to privacy? Did you mean the Patriot Act and the Homegrown Terrorism Prevention Act? Was that a joke? You'll accept all this to prevent the great injustice of rural Mississippi and New York City having different minimum wages despite a five-fold difference in cost of living.

Whatever. I've been through this before, and it is beyond you to recognize what has already happened: the people you fear would run some unfortunate state in a decentralized country are in charge of the Federal government now. You can win the White House this year, but you're just keeping the chair warm. But you will go on believing in your dream of a powerful friend on high until the bubble pops.

Good night.

So what if the policies of white supremacy and libertarianism overlap in some places. The policies of white supremacy and liberalism overlap in some places, for instance: vieweing the world as a collective of races. The policies of the spinach industry and white supremacy overlap so long as white supremacists feed their children leafy green vegetables. Who is going to design a platform that is perfectly inconsistent with white supremacists' interests?

If Russert had to go all the way back to disagree with Paul about the Civil War, I'd say Paul is in good shape.

Jason C,

"the Constitution grants every citizen certain rights. The act of secession was an attempt to destroy those guarantees."

Sorry, Jason but you have it backwards.

The Constitution does not grant a single right to anyone. The document is a limitation on the federal government pure and simple. After the civil war it became a limitation on states as well. Prior to the civil war there is no question that the Constitution was between the states and the feds with the states definitely acting as an agent and more between the federal government and the individual.

Remember this is well before the direct election of Senators and the end of the head tax.

I'm voting for RP; feel free to vote for any of the other candidates who feel are better suited.

To imply that anyone who is against the Civil Rights Amendment is a white supremacist, no matter what their reasons, is inflammatory and we can see through that.

I never quite understood the EU conspiracy. Are they saying that they government is going to secretly foist it upon the European people? Because taking on the United Nations One World Nation is one thing (they have black helicopters!), but taking on an even more bloated national government that's merged with Portugal and Germany? That's easy.

There is no way a European Union will ever happen. You kooky conspiracy theorists really need to give it a rest.

The civil war was about the industrial revolution in the region, just like, say, Stalin's repressions in the USSR in the 1930s. Masses of people having to move from the land to the factories. The particular arrangement employed by the antiquated declining agrarian society (i.e.: slavery) is coincidental.

I feel that states should be able to secede from the union for whatever reason they choose. Or else all this self-righteous talk about 'democracy' is bullshit. Well, of course it's bullshit; I guess I mean, prima facie bullshit.

Ron Paul received contributions from over 100,000 different people this quarter. He received $18,000,000 from those 100,000 people. His support is wide and deep. Look around your town and notice you see RP signs everywhere. Grab a cup of coffee and go to http://freeme.tv

Abb1,

Your right the self-righteous talk is BS. How can the US fight for self-determination around the world given its history of rejecting it at home? It doesn't make sense and these posts that the states had no right to secede...that they were indentured servants ad infinitum due to their ratification of the Constitution is equally ridiculous.

Every modern observation about this part of US history is clouded by the slavery issue. In 100 years, no doubt, our school children will be equally convinced that the US went to war against Germany in WW2 in order to end the holocaust.

There is no question in my mind that the South wanted to secede because of their interest in maintaining slavery. Likewise, there is no doubt in my mind that slavery was low on the list of priorities at it fought to create the Union.

I would encourage the folks in this thread to read the Emancipation Proclamation it takes great pains in ensuring that it did not free a single slave. (excluding its applicability of New Orleans and all territories in Union hands).

Bottom line is that it is interesting that it is fine (was even encouraged) for Europe's Georgia to secede from the Soviet Union but it is wrong for the American Georgia to secede from the United States.

That would be the North's priority list as it fought to create (or preserve depending on your legal opinion) the Union.

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jason,

Educate yourself.

http://www.nogw.com/images/nasco.jpg

I live in Charleston, SC very near Fort Sumter- where the Civil War started.

Our history teachers have done a very poor job of teaching us the reasons for the Civil War.

Like most wars, this one was started for monetary gain. The Northern industrialists who supported Lincoln had high tariffs for southern states when the South had to import finished goods- the Northern industrialists wanted to make goods and ship them south .

The Southerners at the time felt they were paying an unfair share of the federal government's taxes. They took over Fort Sumter -

Why did they take over Fort Sumter????

Because without the Northern ability to board ships and tax the imported goods - the Northern Industrialists business would suffer greatly.Southerners wanted to secede and ship goods up through New Orleans all the way out West.
This would have destroyed the industrialists monopoly.

That is why Fort Sumter was such a key place- the largest harbor in the South. If ships could not be board by Customs and taxed - the monopoly was in jeopardy.

It had nothing to do with slavery -at first . After a couple
of years of fighting, Lincoln brought in the slavery issue to drum up support from Europe.

Wars are fought over money - not ideals- like bringing democracy to the Middle East.Lincoln did not want the slaves to move up north - at the time of the civil war Illinois- Lincoln's home state - would not accept southern freed slaves.

Read a book called When in the Course of Human Events: Arguing the Case for Southern Secession (published in 2000) by a Northern historian, Charles Adams, and find out the facts .

I wonder what excuse our history books will use as to why we invaded Iraq in 100 years!

You're right truthseeker, your teachers did a terrible job teaching you about the Civil War.

The South seceded due to Lincoln being elected because he refused to allow more slave states to come in. Thats it.

Jason C.,

Just because an insurgent candidate doesn't win the big election doesn't mean his ideas don't win. We've never had a president from the Socialist party, and yet most of the Socialists' platform from a century ago has long since become law. A more recent example is Ross Perot. He got both Clinton and Bush 41 to add deficit reduction to their platforms. He was the one who beat the American people over the head with that issue during his campaign. Incidentally, he might have had a real shot to win in '92, if he didn't start muttering batshit accusations about the GOP trying to sabotage his daughter's wedding.

Ron Paul is the beginning of a new movement. I believe there will be many candidates running for Congress with views similar to his in the 2008 and 2010 election.

"This is what Paulites always say, but they never explain exactly why this supposed preeminence of the states - which seems hard to reconcile with Article VI, clause 2 of the Constitution, but whatever - is the way it ought to be."

Ok, then, allow me to explain it:

Article VI, clause 2, states that federal law is supreme, but under Amendment 10, federal law can only touch on a very limited range of subjects, those listed in Article I, section 8, while everything else is left to the states. This makes the states preeminent, because practically every way in which government directly interacts with the citizen is reserved for the states.

Under the Constitution as it originally stood, most people would live their entire lives without ever having to be concerned with federal law, because it couldn't touch them in their day to day lives.

Even the 14th amendment didn't change that, because it didn't give the federal government jurisdiction over private activities, only the actions of states. Which was the problem with the 1964 Civil rights act.

"The ability of states to secede from the union is a settled legal question. We fought a war over it. The seceding states lost."

That's the problem with "settling arguments" by killing people until they give up disagreeing with you; It doesn't prove you're right, it just proves that you're dangerous to disagree with. People go on disagreeing with you, they just shut up about it until you put down the gun.

Ron Paul signs everywhere? Uhh, no. I do a lot of driving around L.A., and the only Ron Paul sign I've seen was painted in somebody's window in Seligman, Arizona, a dusty town on old Route 66. So, yeah, if by "everywhere" you mean I have to drive 400 miles from home to see one.

The Southern states had no right to secede. The system we have is one of dual sovereignty; from the time the United States was formed, it was the acknowledged legitimate government over all the land that fell within its boundaries. .......
The United States is not the United Nations. The authority of the federal government isn't just wielded over the states - it's wielded over all the people in all the states. The authority and legitimacy that the U.S. has vis-a-vis its citizens isn't carried through the states like some kind of intermediary - it's direct and immediate, and totally goes around the states, in its proper sphere. Every citizen is a "subject" of two sovereigns - the U.S., and whatever state he happens to live in.
States can't just decide to withdraw the way, e.g., France could withdraw from the U.N. For the Southern states to have "seceded" was just as much a direct assault on the sovereignty of the federal government as it would have been if they had seized Washington, D.C.
Posted by Jason C

And a "bullshit" to all that.

Most colonial, Muslim, commie empires were founded with the "law" that each dusky and kaffir and peasant was a subject of the Crown, the Sultan, the Supreme Soviet Politburo.

The whole history of the post colonial, independence era (started BTW, Jason C by American Revolutionaries rejecting dual sovereignity of Crown and Colony) is THE PEOPLE are the sovereign ones, free under natural law to reject RULERS that do not serve their interests and exercise their right to self-determination to embrace another system.
Then what follows is success of failure of the independence effort. Sometimes both parties agree violence will not be employed to force people to remain in their original union. (Britain and India, the Soviets and the peaceful breakup of most of the Empire). Other times lethal force will be used to quash self-determination in bloody war and oppression. (Lincoln and the South, Nigeria and the Ibo Tribe of Biafra, China's Borg-like assimilation of Tibet, Russia and Chechnya.). More times than not, the independence military struggle has won out. (The Colonial Army, Simon Bolivar, Algeria, the Reconquista). With the same language used on the forces trying to keep Union as Johnny Reb used: "We're not fightin' you on slaves or banks or tariffs - were fightin' you because you're down here on our soil trying to kill us if we don't do what you tell us to do.."

I think on the Civil War, Paul is right. Slavery was a dying economic institution by the 1850s. It was becoming morally untenable in Christian thought. Banned by all European powers beginning in 1777 until the Netherlands outlawed it in 1860. Ironically, the very scrap of paper Ron Paul worships, the US Constitution and it's vaunted Rule of Law - allowed a minority (the slave owners) to thwart the will of the majority (the rest of America) for decades. The rest of the world was using treaties, top down solutions, and well-considered financial compensation plans to avoid violence in ending their slavery systems. Dictatorship and lack of respect for foolish lawyers in robes like Chief Justice Taney allowed for slavery's swift death south of the US Border.

In the Americas, without the bloody slaughter equivalent to 3 million United States citizens with todays population and a wrecked infrastructure affecting 1/4th of America's landmass....slavery rapidly died out. Over half of the Caribbean and Latin America banned it before our Civil War. By 1870, the larger remaining slave nations (Brazil, Cuba, PR)accepted free birth of all children of slaves. And from 1885-88, the last slaves in those holdouts were freed. Except for the Paraguayan civil war, not fought over slavery as the main issue but economic reasons and matters of pride - the ending was largely bloodless and without the ruinous cost and destruction of the US Civil War Fiasco. (We also lost our shot to imprint American solutions in Japan - we were there first - but the Japanese of the Meiji Restoration saw us go into the mess of the "Brother against Brother" war and (to them) sanely went with some of the worst features of British and Prussian Imperialism and domestic practices instead of messed up America.)

Certainly, I agree with Ron Paul's position on amending the Constitution as long as the Congress agrees. By the way, the Bill of Rights are all amendments.

Ron Paul must be one hell of a candidate if the only compelling thing against him is that he has some unusual ideas about something that happened 137 years ago.

Michael Cathcart writes: "Our once great nation will be lost forever if this election is not taken by Ron Paul."

---------------------------------------------

MoeLarryAndJesus Responds: When Paul's supporters make statements like that it reinforces the idea that he's running a cult, not a campaign. Similar claims are made by LaRouchies. Ron Paul is a political candidate. He's not a messiah. There are no messiahs.

---------------------------------------------

I say: I completely agree with Michael Cathcart. We're not saying that Dr.Paul is the messiah; what we are saying is that anyone who TRULY doesn't believe the US is on the verge of collapse is either: 1)been brainwashed by mainstream media and federal government 2)in denial or just plain lying to themselves 3)has never balanced a checkbook or 4)have never actually taken any time to review public records on government spending.

I want us to back out of war based on financial reason alone. Don't get me wrong I don't think we should be policing the rest of the world period, BUT WE DEFINITELY CANNOT AFFORD TO CONTINUE TO FIGHT A "WAR ON TERROR" BY BORROWING FROM NATIONS LIKE CHINA!! We could barely afford to continue "facist" programs like welfare before the war; how the hell do expect to continue without raising taxes or borrowing more? Well, we can't. And politicians won't raise taxes in fear they might upset the public, so they borrow from other nations because when it's out of sight, it's out of mind. Problem is that's like using a credit card: we pay interest on that money, and EVENTUALLY IT HAS TO BE PAID BACK!!! I'm 26 and that means it all is going to fall on my generation. SCREW THAT!! If Paul isn't elected, I'm moving out of the US before it collapses. I'll move to somewhere like Germany where the currency is much stronger than the dollar and ship money back to my American family just like illegal immigrants do now!!

"Here's something I found very interesting about today's interview on Meet the Press. Paul was asked about his support for amending the constitution to deny citizenship to illegal immigrant children born in the United States. His response was, and I quote, "It's not unconstitutional to amend the constitution."

You missed the other part of his response, which was that it's arguable whether the 14th Amendment has to be interpreted to grant citizenship to the children of illegal immigrants born in the U.S., and that it may not take a Constitutional Amendment to clarify this (it's possible that it could be done with Congressional legislation). Those who claim the 14th Amendment does grant birthright citizenship ignore the part in bold below:

"All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside."

Congressional legislation that stipulates that the children of illegals are not subject to the jurisdiction of the United States would get rid of birthright citizenship for them.

I'd add that Ron Paul has nutty ideas, like about gold and Truther conspiracists in his ranks - but within the Libertarian philosophy are some truly great ideas the Republicans would do well to respect and try to implement.

If Ron Paul is nutty, what is Rudy Giuliani and his call for eternal war to 'save Israel' from any threat? What is the Supreme Moral Obligation we owe them to invade, die in droves, squander our treasure? Paul is right. We only have obligation to defend and protect Americans. Fortunately Rudy and his neocons are flaming out.

And I partially agree with him on the right of property owners to use their property as they see fit without Fed Gov't flunkies ordering them about because they lack the clout of the moneyed classes and corporations to stand up to some pompous little prick walking on a place like he owns it and dictating Fed EEO, safety, environmental, user taxes for services they don't use....

In worst case, if the Feds had butted out of provate property and Billy Bob's BBQ restricted customers to whites only, no Mormons or Catholics or queers either...Billy Bob would have seen his business never grow on his limited clientale and eventually shrink as more modern, liberal, moral conservatives shun his business model - as society moved on. All would have happened naturally, without the divisions and rancor caused by Federal coercion of people and society already advancing along nicely without outside pressure groups dictating mandated change to rush things along and ending up with 35-year long abortion warfare, a large segment of black society devolving into NOLA-like crime-riddled parasites, people ripped at the insane taxes and business/land use policies of the Government aimed at them when Gov't is suposed to serve and make their lives easier.

Ron Paul - never ever "right" to be President, but full of ideas and notions worth paying attention to. And not just Republicans, but Independents and progressives that have seen the Federal model of bureaucrats and lawyers and activists and bribed political leaders fuck up America all over the place.

Isn't it funny that people are arguing so passionatly over state's rights to leave the union. After all, it has been clearly demonstrated in this post that the legal ability for states to do so are fuzzy at best (see the Constitution's line about states forming Confederacies). And yet, were the law is perfectly clear is that the treaties the US made with Native Tribes were bogus and fraudulent. And somehow people are moaning about the legality of the Civil War, no one is talking about the legality of the Reservations. Why is that? It seems pretty clear to me what is the root of this: racism.

I sometimes wonder if Paul enthusiasts realize just how they come across to the public at large. Here in this thread as elsewhere, we see many many words written in defense of individuals' and states' rights to be racist and otherwise bigoted - to keep owning slaves, to refuse to do business with blacks, gays, or whoever, and to punish women who attempt to have abortions. When those topics aren't front and center, the desirability of leaving people in need to their own devices (and the whim of charity from, presumably, all those now happily practicing bigots) tends to take the center stage.

The thing is, a whole lot of people concerned about abuses of power and interested in increasing opportunities for those who currently have little really aren't much interested in making life easier for bigots, or in making life harder for poor women, the disabled, and other groups of folks in need. So the more these things go on, the more repellent the whole cause looks to a lot of bystanders.

P.S., Matt has officially been "got" by the RonPaulBots.

Join the New Years Revolution. Please donate $101.08 to Ron Paul's campaign on 1-01-08 at ronpaul2008.com to make your new years revolution and vote for (freedom) Ron Paul. Thank you PS: please pass this on!

Taking the above and throwing in a hypothetical questioner:

Q: So how exactly would a libertarian America be good for me?

A: You could refuse to serve black people in your restaurant!

Q: I don't own a business. Don't really want to, actually. I remember how much work it was for Dad to run his shop. I'm happier being an employee at a place run well by somebody else.

A: Your boss wouldn't have to keep paying for your health care!

Q: Really? He'd like that. But I thought universal coverage was a nasty socialist thing?

A: No universal coverage! That's a nasty socialist thing! You'd be on your own. And insurers could refuse to do business with you!

Q: And that's good for me?

A: With all the money you save, you can file more torts against industries!

Q: Why'd I want to do that?

A: It's more fun than regulation!

Q: Wait a sec, you want me to give up having polluters regulated so that I can try to sue them myself?

A: Yup! But not by yourself! You can file class action lawsuits!

Q: I thought you were in favor of reforms that make it harder to sue businesses, particularly via class action?

A: Yup! Gotta cut out the parasitical abuses of the courts!

Q: So I get to give up regulation in exchange for not being able to sue?

A: You could refuse to serve employees of corporations you don't like when they try to come to your restaurant!

Q: I still don't want to own a business.

A: Oh. How about investments?

Q: How about my health? What is it I'm supposed to do when nobody will sell me insurance and there's more crap in the environment to make my rheumatoid arthritis worse?

A: You can put your kids to work! We're in favor of child labor!

Q: I'll come back later.

John C,

"Ron Paul is an authoritarian through and through - he just wants the authority to be exercised at the state level."

I don't get how people keep accusing Ron Paul the libertarian (root word = liberty) an authoritarian?

He admits that the states have a more legal right to be authoritarian than the federal government regarding say drug prohibition or prostitution prohibition but he does not wish them to be so. How can you impute this desire on the man who you have not studied or do not know personally?

He may desire states to limit or prohibit abortion based on his personal views as an OBGYN but this view does not arise from an authoritarian instinct.

This is such double think on the part of his detractors with their invocation of newspeak in their descriptions of Paul.

John,

Remember Jim Crow laws were LAWS. This is state established behavior which is very inconsistent with libertarianism but is very consistent with socialism.

Libertarians only have a problem with the violation of individuals property rights. You can solve social justice issues without violating these private property rights.

From a libertarian perspective any segregation or lack of equality mandated by the state is an abomination. This was the lion's share of institutional racism.

The private racism, lunch counters hotels etc respond quicker to market pressures than the threats of lawsuits as we have seen in other examples ie homosexual rights advancement.

But this type of voluntary change never seems to get a chance. We simply replace one form of heavy handed tyranny for another.

There is no fundamental improvement when this method of societal change is used. It fosters resentment and prolongs the adjustment.

Freddiemac,

Regarding Civil War discussion:
"It seems pretty clear to me what is the root of this: racism."

Why do you have to go and do that? Why shout down an intellectual discussion discussing the history of our governmental structure by accusing folks of racism?

I began the discussion with: "Assuming for THE SAKE OF ARGUMENT that slavery was NOT an issue."

What part of this thought exercise do you not get?

OK let's change this to..."There has been no civil war, Utah wants to secede, does it have a right to?"

Can we have this discussion or is it a "racist" one?

Can we have that

letma peoplego,

I'll indulge you this one. Suppose Utah wants to secede. Ok, does it have a right to? Probably not. I suppose they would have to propose legislation and see if it floats through the Supreme Court, especially if they also form a confederacy in conjuction with Idaho and Nevada, which appears to be prohibited by the Constitutuion.

Now indulge me this, suppose the Navajos want to secede from the US. Do they have a right to? Or how about the Iroquois and Cherokee? Considering that many of their old treaties were never abrogated, they were simply rounded up, they have a perfectly legal right to their land as delineated in the Constitution. What then? Would you and Ron Paul be in favor of letting the tribes gobble up 1/5 of the US and seceding?

From Ken in Waco, near the top: "Secession wasn't about slavery? Really? Someone forgot to tell South Carolina. In its Declaration of Secession, South Carolina mentioned slavery or slaves 18 times. The document is replete with hte issue of slavery. Tariffs, taxes, and other economic issues were not mentioned once."

Hold on to your hat Ken, because next MY's going to tell us the war in Iraq isn't about terrorism, even though Bush's addresses are replete with the word "terrorist" or "terrorism" 957 times.

Just for the record, Paul has denounced White Supremacy as "unethical" and "small". He has also stated unambigously that he does NOT want the support of white supremacist organizations.

a new term in americam politics has emerged

i am a

ron paul republican

to all sitting senators and reps, get on board or suffer in coming elections

we the people are about to take our country back from the globalists, military industrialist, wall street and all the other special interests who have been killing the middle class

thanks ron paul for bringing the message to the forefront of american politics

One thing that emerges here is that when Paul doesn't get the Republican nomination, if he chooses to run as a third-party candidate, plenty of people will vote for him. If he doesn't, many will sit this election out.

After the Meet the Press interview, R Paul is history. His ideas are absolutely ridiculous and he looked like a nutcase (the crypt keeper!)

R Paul supporters are funny.

They say things like "get on board or suffer in coming elections"

"we the people" are taking this country back.

They wear their V for Vendetta masks and talk about a revolution.

Paul proved what a nutcase he is on Meet the Press. We the People of America realize what a nutcase Paul is! He should have stayed in the closet!

That's the problem with "settling arguments" by killing people until they give up disagreeing with you; It doesn't prove you're right, it just proves that you're dangerous to disagree with. People go on disagreeing with you, they just shut up about it until you put down the gun.

Yeah, that's the way it works in the world of men.

I'm sure the British feel the same way about our right to declare independence from them. But strangely, there seem to be far fewer comment threads out there filled with people arguing we should go back to being a British colony. There must be something awfully appealing to some people about the confederacy. Also very appealing, judging from the internet interest, are the pre-civil rights act social order and the notion that black people are mentally inferior.

We in the majority have no shortage of arguments against the advisability of establishing a herrenvolk slave state, permitting the segregation of societies, and propounding theories of racial inferiority with dodgy science; however, given the nature of our interlocutors, we have found it prudent to organize a central government that remains dangerous to disagree with--if only for the sake of the minorities whose interests are at stake.

The Civil War was about self-determination. The South wanted to keep the right to make and keep its own rules. The North said they had the right to make the rules for the South. Yes, slavery was one of the issues, but people tend to defend some pretty silly stuff when outsiders try to impose their will. It seems goofy, but people will fight for principles. 600,000 dead - it wasn't worth it.

Ron Paul's message is that when the day of the ogre state are over there will be lots less to fight about.

Somebody needs to tell Ron Paul though that take on foreign aid making countries dependent on us doesn't resonate. The right angle is, "Why are we taxing an American trying to feed his family to send the money overseas?" That works everytime.

The Southern states had no right to secede.

The right to secede from a government you believe is oppressing you is an inherent human right. The South seceding from the Union is no different than the Kosovars seceding from Serbia because the believe they are oppressed by the Serbs (speaking of modern day secessions), and is no different than the Americans seceding from the British empire because they believed they were being oppressed by King George III.

People have an inherent right to self governance. To believe the opposite is to support tyranny.

Al,

Does that mean that Mississippi plantations should have seceded from the Confederacy, since a majority of the population were slaves?

Does the Four Corners Reservation have a right to secede from the US? And how much land do they have a right to take?

I'm interested in this fundamental human right. Does that mean that Peter Griffin and I have a right to secede our houses from the US and start our own countries?

Southpaw, that a point was "proven" by force of arms, and not logic, doesn't establish that it was wrong. It just means that it was "proven" without actually changing peoples' minds. You might get somebody to say they agree with you by pointing a gun at their head, but you don't win over their mind. So don't be surprised that the argument resurfaces as soon as the threat disappears, and nobody is persuaded by the argument of the gun.

For my part, I could go ether way on the legality of the southern states' secession, but I have no doubt at all in my mind they did it for bad reasons. These are separate matters.

Heres some stats.. but lets not forget the interest!
At the time this paper is being written the US national debt stands a few billion or short of nine trillion dollars (June 2000) and the interest expense so far this year (cumulative until June 2007) is over 359 billion dollars. In Fiscal year 2006, interest payments totaled nearly 406 billion dollars. IRS statistics indicate that in 2005 the total income tax liabilities for taxpayers totaled 971 billion dollars and the interest on the national debt was 352 billion. Over a third of the federal income tax revenues collected were used to pay nothing more than the interest on the national debt. The 2007 numbers will be much higher based on the current numbers available. As you can see just by the few stats I have listed, the debt and associated interest is growing by leaps and bounds and servicing that debt will soon be unattainable. Considering the economy, numbers of homes going into foreclosure, soaring fuel, energy and consequential food prices, the future doesn't seem to look that great, especially for the middle class.
"100% of what is collected is absorbed soley by interest on the Federal Debt ... all individual income tax revenues are gone before one nickel is spent on the services taxpayers expect from government."
- Grace Commission Report, submitted to President Ronald Reagan on January 15, 1984

Actually, if you read the history that preceded the War Between the States, it is quite different than what has been propagated as acceptable history. It is rarely stated that most of the Southern States voted to abolish the slave trade in the early 1800s however it was overridden by the Northern States, it was the trade itself that provided massive profits for the New England shipping magnates who continued to smuggle slaves into the South. The first state to outlaw the slave trade was Virginia in 1778.

The institution of slavery was rapidly becoming economically unviable in the South and perhaps the entire white slave owner population was only 6%, most of whom had small slave holdings of 1 to 3 slaves. The question then arises why would the majority of non-slave owners fight a war if it were about slavery? It had nothing to do with slavery and everything to do with the view that the States of the Union were Republics, independent of a nation government, but reflective in the Union of States.

Also, another overlooked fact is that more slaves freely fought for the Confederacy then ever fought on the Union side…the question should arise why? Why would slaves freely defend the South? The Union armies were assured that the slave population would rise in rebellion against their Southern oppressors however, there are numerous accounts of Union soldiers being shocked to see that they were not viewed as Liberators, but as enemy invaders by the Confederate slave soldiers…why? There was no compulsion on the part of the South to engage slave fighters, unlike the Northern practice of conscription, these slaves fought freely against what they saw as an invading army. Additionally, the Confederate government had to impose limitations on all volunteers, both white and slave, during the war because no one was left to tend the farms. The war effort was so popular that they had to force men, white and slave, to stay and work the farms. Why? Why would the Northern Army be viewed as invaders instead of Liberators by the slaves of the South? Slaves spoke of their Northern Liberators in the most contemptuous language and fought against them with vigor and at times outrage.

In 1863, an Englishman reported in Gettysburg that: "This little episode of a Southern slave leading a white Yankee soldier through a Northern village, alone and of his own accord, would not have been gratifying to an abolitionist. . . . Nor would the sympathizers both in England and in the North feel encouraged if they could hear the language of detestation and contempt with which the numerous Negroes with Southern armies speak of their liberators."

These are questions that popular history avoids, issues it neglects.

So, 94% of all Southerners didn’t own slaves, even Robert E. Lee was not a slave owner and yet they fought for their country not because of slavery but because it was a righteous cause that went to the heart of what the Constitutional Republic meant. The real reason the South went to war was because of the heavy tariffs imposed upon it by the Northern States and the federal powers that backed them.

Slavery was not only a white institution, the census of 1830 shows that freed slaves owned over 10,000 slaves themselves in this country.

There is, obviously, a history that has been swept under the rug of acceptable discourse in this country; it is time, high-time that we cleared away all the obfuscation of the matter and get to the real story and why the false one has been so ardently propagated.

Actually, if you read the history that preceded the War Between the States, it is quite different than what has been propagated as acceptable history. It is rarely stated that most of the Southern States voted to abolish the slave trade in the early 1800s however it was overridden by the Northern States, it was the trade itself that provided massive profits for the New England shipping magnates who continued to smuggle slaves into the South. The first state to outlaw the slave trade was Virginia in 1778.

The institution of slavery was rapidly becoming economically unviable in the South and perhaps the entire white slave owner population was only 6%, most of whom had small slave holdings of 1 to 3 slaves. The question then arises why would the majority of non-slave owners fight a war if it were about slavery? It had nothing to do with slavery and everything to do with the view that the States of the Union were Republics, independent of a nation government, but reflective in the Union of States.

Also, another overlooked fact is that more slaves freely fought for the Confederacy then ever fought on the Union side…the question should arise why? Why would slaves freely defend the South? The Union armies were assured that the slave population would rise in rebellion against their Southern oppressors however, there are numerous accounts of Union soldiers being shocked to see that they were not viewed as Liberators, but as enemy invaders by the Confederate slave soldiers…why? There was no compulsion on the part of the South to engage slave fighters, unlike the Northern practice of conscription, these slaves fought freely against what they saw as an invading army. Additionally, the Confederate government had to impose limitations on all volunteers, both white and slave, during the war because no one was left to tend the farms. The war effort was so popular that they had to force men, white and slave, to stay and work the farms. Why? Why would the Northern Army be viewed as invaders instead of Liberators by the slaves of the South? Slaves spoke of their Northern Liberators in the most contemptuous language and fought against them with vigor and at times outrage.

In 1863, an Englishman reported in Gettysburg that: "This little episode of a Southern slave leading a white Yankee soldier through a Northern village, alone and of his own accord, would not have been gratifying to an abolitionist. . . . Nor would the sympathizers both in England and in the North feel encouraged if they could hear the language of detestation and contempt with which the numerous Negroes with Southern armies speak of their liberators."

These are questions that popular history avoids, issues it neglects.

So, 94% of all Southerners didn’t own slaves, even Robert E. Lee was not a slave owner and yet they fought for their country not because of slavery but because it was a righteous cause that went to the heart of what the Constitutional Republic meant. The real reason the South went to war was because of the heavy tariffs imposed upon it by the Northern States and the federal powers that backed them.

Slavery was not only a white institution, the census of 1830 shows that freed slaves owned over 10,000 slaves themselves in this country.

There is, obviously, a history that has been swept under the rug of acceptable discourse in this country; it is time, high-time that we cleared away all the obfuscation of the matter and get to the real story and why the false one has been so ardently propagated.

You're right, Daniel, the EU is never going to happen. The U.K. and the Eastern Euros will tear it apart.

As for the NAU theory, there's only three ways any sort of supernational state can appear:

1. Authoritarian fascism!!!111 As I said before, boring. Who the hell becomes a tyrant just to merge the U.S. with Canada and Mexico, which are basically economic outgrowths of the U.S. at this point anyway?

2. The gummint sneaks it through This has always been a weird concept to me, on the level of Congress supposedly "unconstitutionally" passing the Sixteenth Amendment. If it's something that's passed against the will of the American people then why don't they, I don't know, act to get it removed? How does someone sneak in such a huge act?

3. They do it up front. In this case, it isn't a conspiracy at all. If the American people do not support an NAU, I can't see how they won't lobby the hell out of their representatives. And if the American people are in favor of an NAU, well, then it's the responsibility of the government to oblige them.

"Even if we accept your version of United States history, Paulites never provide any compelling justification for why we ought to return to this state of affairs. If you hadn't noticed, "states' rights" didn't always turn out so well, at least for some people."

This comment struck me. It's true, but Federal laws over state laws have been just as damaging in many cases.

You're comment seems aimed at racism, so look at federal drug policy. Crack cocaine sentencing guidelines, mandatory minimums and the number of black men in federal prisons. RP's platform is to roll back both the federal drug policy and sentencing guidelines. He mentioned the CRA because he was asked about a comment he made, but that isn't his current platform. Don't pick and choose some of his comments, but read the entire platform and you'll see it has nothing to do with taking away anyone's equal or civil rights.

Watching the federal government stomp on California's emissions standards completely pisses me off. That was voted into law by the people of that state, to improve the health of their people. The only state large enough to put pressure on the auto industry without fear of the companies simply pulling out.

I live in Phoenix, where the air has turned a beige color and we have air quality advisories half the days of the year. The environment is a huge property rights issue to me.

Actually, if you read the history that preceded the War Between the States, it is quite different than what has been propagated as acceptable history. It is rarely stated that most of the Southern States voted to abolish the slave trade in the early 1800s however it was overridden by the Northern States, it was the trade itself that provided massive profits for the New England shipping magnates who continued to smuggle slaves into the South. The first state to outlaw the slave trade was Virginia in 1778.

The institution of slavery was rapidly becoming economically unviable in the South and perhaps the entire white slave owner population was only 6%, most of whom had small slave holdings of 1 to 3 slaves. The question then arises why would the majority of non-slave owners fight a war if it were about slavery? It had nothing to do with slavery and everything to do with the view that the States of the Union were Republics, independent of a nation government, but reflective in the Union of States.

Also, another overlooked fact is that more slaves freely fought for the Confederacy then ever fought on the Union side…the question should arise why? Why would slaves freely defend the South? The Union armies were assured that the slave population would rise in rebellion against their Southern oppressors however, there are numerous accounts of Union soldiers being shocked to see that they were not viewed as Liberators, but as enemy invaders by the Confederate slave soldiers…why? There was no compulsion on the part of the South to engage slave fighters, unlike the Northern practice of conscription, these slaves fought freely against what they saw as an invading army. Additionally, the Confederate government had to impose limitations on all volunteers, both white and slave, during the war because no one was left to tend the farms. The war effort was so popular that they had to force men, white and slave, to stay and work the farms. Why? Why would the Northern Army be viewed as invaders instead of Liberators by the slaves of the South? Slaves spoke of their Northern Liberators in the most contemptuous language and fought against them with vigor and at times outrage.

In 1863, an Englishman reported in Gettysburg that: "This little episode of a Southern slave leading a white Yankee soldier through a Northern village, alone and of his own accord, would not have been gratifying to an abolitionist. . . . Nor would the sympathizers both in England and in the North feel encouraged if they could hear the language of detestation and contempt with which the numerous Negroes with Southern armies speak of their liberators."

These are questions that popular history avoids, issues it neglects.

So, 94% of all Southerners didn’t own slaves, even Robert E. Lee was not a slave owner and yet they fought for their country not because of slavery but because it was a righteous cause that went to the heart of what the Constitutional Republic meant. The real reason the South went to war was because of the heavy tariffs imposed upon it by the Northern States and the federal powers that backed them.

Slavery was not only a white institution, the census of 1830 shows that freed slaves owned over 10,000 slaves themselves in this country.

There is, obviously, a history that has been swept under the rug of acceptable discourse in this country; it is time, high-time that we cleared away all the obfuscation of the matter and get to the real story and why the false one has been so ardently propagated.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing Government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it."

Prior to taking office, Lincoln had a totally different view of the Republic, what changed that view? Could it be the Merchantilists or perhaps it was the 48ers from the failed Marxist revolution in Europe of whom Lincoln made his advisors and in some cases his generals. Ah, but the wonders of history forgotten or ignored.

If you read the Federalist Papers you will see that they didn't view the ratification of the Constitution as a repudiation of the Articles of Confederation. It was also recognized by the States that the status of their Republics would not change, they would remain independent Republics under a reflective Union. The Union only represented a system of federation, not a national government with total central power or authority over the States. In fact, on several occassions it was stated that if that were the case the Constitution would have never been ratified by any of the States.

If slavery was a dying institution in the south, why were southerners so ferocious in insisting that new states and territories allow slavery? Why the bloody fight in Kansas? Why did the vice president of the Confederacy declare that it was founded upon the notion "that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based on this great physical, philosophical and moral truth."

The idea that there were more blacks fighting for the south than the north in the war is simply a lie. Lots of slaves were forced to work as laborers for the south, but that was not of their own free will. Stop lying. By 1865, the South was in such dire straits that they debated whether they should begin to allow slaves to fight. The plan was to promise the slaves their freedom if they fought. But, by the time the war ended, there were only two companies that had even begun training, and had yet to do any actual fighting. On the other hand, 179,000 black men served in uniform for the north. So please, again, stop lying.

Also, you seem to ignore the fact that the southern armies enslaved captured northern black soldiers, when they didn't outright massacre them when they tried to surrender, as at Fort Pillow.

Hilarious.

From the Confederate Constitution:

No bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law denying or impairing the right of property in negro slaves shall be passed.

So much for state's rights -- any law banning or restricting slavery in the Confederacy was unconstitutional!

And are any of the freedom lovers in this thread concerned with the freedom of slaves? Do they identify with slaves, do they view slave-owners as oppressors denying human beings fundamental rights? Ha ha ha ha ha. I wonder why that is.

(How come blacks vote overwhelmingly for Democrats? It must be that evil identity politics.)

And the way I'm advising that it should have been done is do like the British empire did. You, you buy the slaves and release them.

In 1860 the national GDP was about $4.3 billion. There were about 4 million slaves in the U.S., about 13% of the population. The average price of a slave was $400. So we're talking about 37% of GDP devoted to buying and freeing slaves, if it were all done in a single year. Does that sound like something libertarians, now or at that time, would be on board with? Sounds like a pretty heavy tax burden. Or is Paul saying that private citizens rather than the federal government would have done it? This is very weak tea.

It says a lot about how history is taught--or read--in certain regions of the United States, that this conversation is going the way it is.

Something not yet mentioned as one of the underlying contributors to the political situation before 1860 was the increasing resentment of the non-slave states at how the slave states were using the power of the Federal government to ban antislavery materials from the US mail, to suppress the rights of antislavery petitioners to Congress, and to insist under law that free state government authorities facilitate the activities of slave catchers in their own states. Not to mention the undemocratic farce of the attempt to force a pro-slave constitution on the soon-to-be state of Kansas by importing pro-slave voters from Missouri.

This PaulBot phenomenon is fascinating, although I know I'm coming late to it. (They seem to be on the liberal blogs more than they were a few months ago, and I don't read conservative blogs.) They are obviously impervious to data or reasoning, but that's not unique. What's funny is their juvenile dogmatism, their know-it-all-ness, and their ability to justify literally anything Ron Paul says. It's also pretty funny how they think their flimsy, half-formed arguments and terribly light grasp of policy issues or historical fact are convincing us all to support Ron Paul; they actually think he's going to win-- with *our* support!

how could libertarians believe that a vote for Paul is a vote against the influence of corporate power, while Paul advocates widespread privatization that would almost inexorably EXPAND corporate power?


Strange, that is not what the Confederate Military Muster Rolls state. If you go to the military census you will find that over 300,000 in uniform fighting for the Confederate cause. Not sure where you get your “facts” from however, the official count shows a far different story. In fact, not only were black soldiers honored by being buried in Confederate Cemeteries, but they were also allowed to live in Confederate Veterans Homes across the South. Strange that you would call it a lie about black Confederate troops when even Stonewall Jackson alone had over 3000 black troops under his command during the occupation of Fredrick, Maryland in 1862. I wonder who is lying and why?

Go to the National Archives and read the Slave Narratives for yourself…see what these slaves and direct descendents of slaves thought about the South and the invaders from the North. Get it directly from those who were there…then call me a liar. I’ve read those narratives and also the complete History of the Rebellion which was commissioned by the federal government to document the actual events of the war…it is amazing and eye-opening!


Let’s look at what these angels of the North thought about the “negro population” shall we:

On April 2, 1862, Member of Congress John Sherman, brother of serial killer General W.T. Sherman, said this: "We do not like the negroes. We do not disguise our dislike. As my friend from Indiana said yesterday: ‘The whole people of the Northwestern States are opposed to having many Negroes among them.’

In 1807, New Jersey barred blacks from voting. In 1814, Connecticut did so. In 1822, Rhode Island did so. In 1838, Pennsylvania did so. In 1867, while Congress was forcing the South to accept unqualified suffrage, Ohio rejected a proposed law that would have allowed blacks there to vote. In New York City, Yankees kidnapped free blacks and sold them into slavery. There were 33 such cases in one year alone.

Talk about white supremacy…just look at the quotes of Lincoln himself and see just how he felt about blacks. He wanted to deport them from the country. Lincoln said: "I have no purpose to introduce political and social equality between the white and black races. There is a physical difference between the two, which, in my judgment, will probably forever forbid their living together upon the footing of perfect equality; and inasmuch as it becomes a necessity that there must be a difference, I ... am in favor of the race to which I belong having the superior position."

He also stated that; "My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave, I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves, I would do it; and if I could do it by freeing some and leaving others alone, I would also do that.."

Another interesting fact is that the Emancipation Proclamation didn’t free any slaves held within Union controlled territories, the very ones he had the power to free and he didn’t.

Let’s talk about lies will you…..

Congressional legislation that stipulates that the children of illegals are not subject to the jurisdiction of the United States would get rid of birthright citizenship for them.

Really? In which case, they'd be free to stay in the country, because they'd not be subject to the jurisdiction of the United States in regard to the Immigration and Nationality Act either. No?

I know that the hundred-year precedent of Wong Kim Ark makes you sad, but squeezing your eyes shut and wishing it out of existence won't make it so. Put up an amendment or shut up.

Of course, Ron Paul wants us all to party like it's 1889, so we'll see where that leads us.

Yes, northerners were racist, as was everyone at the time. But they were not fighting for the right to own other human beings. That's the difference.

You're confusing laborers for soldiers. There were very very few black southern soldiers. Read some James McPherson or Robert Krick, you're living in a fantasy world. If there were so many black soldiers fighting for the confederacy, why did it take until 1865 for the confederat government, at that time desperate for men, to begin debating whether they should try to recruit among slaves?

Yeah, shame on the media for focusing on the end of slavery when talking about the Civil War. That surely wasn't significant.

I mean, the end of Slavery is one thing, but... but... but Property Rights! I can kick short people out of my bar cause I don't like'em! But the lunch counter would have become desegregated because of the Magical Sky Wizard of the Market would have made it so (only a few hundred more years woulda done it!) Black people fought to protect the Confederacy... because, um, this secret history you don't know about is a bigger story than the end of Slavery!. See, it was the states who didn't have slavery what was in favor of it!

God you people are fucking nuts. I'm glad my ancestors helped kick your asses and launch your Peculiar Instutition into the dustbin of Digusting Quaint Ideas Of Which We Now Know Better.

"What's funny is their juvenile dogmatism, their know-it-all-ness, and their ability to justify literally anything Ron Paul says. It's also pretty funny how they think their flimsy, half-formed arguments and terribly light grasp of policy issues or historical fact are convincing us all to support Ron Paul" - gwf

Well, I have a masters degree and years of study in the history and economics of "policy issues". What's your qualification? Let me guess: you drink a lot of beer?

I'm sorry, I forgot the first rule of internet forums: Never argue with idiots...The first thing they do is drag you down to their level...Then they beat you with experience!

If you want to see a half-baked argument, go see the addict who wrote this column.

freddiemac,
'Suppose Utah wants to secede. Ok, does it have a right to? Probably not. I suppose they would have to propose legislation and see if it floats through the Supreme Court, especially if they also form a confederacy in conjuction with Idaho and Nevada, which appears to be prohibited by the Constitutuion."

Seems like if they engaged in an illegal confederacy Utah would be kicked out of the Union per the Constitution not invaded and reconstructed. That is one possible interpretation anyway.

"Now indulge me this, suppose the Navajos want to secede from the US. Do they have a right to? Or how about the Iroquois and Cherokee? Considering that many of their old treaties were never abrogated, they were simply rounded up, they have a perfectly legal right to their land as delineated in the Constitution. What then? Would you and Ron Paul be in favor of letting the tribes gobble up 1/5 of the US and seceding?"

I don't know how much they could gobble up but I think they have strong argument to keep what they now possess and be completely independent. I would say the rest of the US was stolen and their people killed to the point of rendering the question moot. This is the legacy of conquering and genocide. It is not very legitimate but it is reality.

I accept this history the way I accept that secession is now illegal in a post civil war America that question was settled with violence once and for all.

This is also why my question begins with the hypothetical..."say there never was a civil war..."

freddiemac,
'Suppose Utah wants to secede. Ok, does it have a right to? Probably not. I suppose they would have to propose legislation and see if it floats through the Supreme Court, especially if they also form a confederacy in conjuction with Idaho and Nevada, which appears to be prohibited by the Constitutuion."

Seems like if they engaged in an illegal confederacy Utah would be kicked out of the Union per the Constitution not invaded and reconstructed. That is one possible interpretation anyway.

"Now indulge me this, suppose the Navajos want to secede from the US. Do they have a right to? Or how about the Iroquois and Cherokee? Considering that many of their old treaties were never abrogated, they were simply rounded up, they have a perfectly legal right to their land as delineated in the Constitution. What then? Would you and Ron Paul be in favor of letting the tribes gobble up 1/5 of the US and seceding?"

I don't know how much they could gobble up but I think they have strong argument to keep what they now possess and be completely independent. I would say the rest of the US was stolen and their people killed to the point of rendering the question moot. This is the legacy of conquering and genocide. It is not very legitimate but it is reality.

I accept this history the way I accept that secession is now illegal in a post civil war America that question was settled with violence once and for all.

This is also why my question begins with the hypothetical..."say there never was a civil war..."

freddiemac,
'Suppose Utah wants to secede. Ok, does it have a right to? Probably not. I suppose they would have to propose legislation and see if it floats through the Supreme Court, especially if they also form a confederacy in conjuction with Idaho and Nevada, which appears to be prohibited by the Constitutuion."

Seems like if they engaged in an illegal confederacy Utah would be kicked out of the Union per the Constitution not invaded and reconstructed. That is one possible interpretation anyway.

"Now indulge me this, suppose the Navajos want to secede from the US. Do they have a right to? Or how about the Iroquois and Cherokee? Considering that many of their old treaties were never abrogated, they were simply rounded up, they have a perfectly legal right to their land as delineated in the Constitution. What then? Would you and Ron Paul be in favor of letting the tribes gobble up 1/5 of the US and seceding?"

I don't know how much they could gobble up but I think they have strong argument to keep what they now possess and be completely independent. I would say the rest of the US was stolen and their people killed to the point of rendering the question moot. This is the legacy of conquering and genocide. It is not very legitimate but it is reality.

I accept this history the way I accept that secession is now illegal in a post civil war America that question was settled with violence once and for all.

This is also why my question begins with the hypothetical..."say there never was a civil war..."

I can't wait to cast my vote for Ron Paul. Ron Paul signs are everywhere, and the media is just now acknowledging this, how sad. We The Voting People of the United States will make Ron Paul's support very clear when he is nominated and elected. If you want more infomation on this man of integrity go to http://RonPaul2008.com

Merry Christmas, and Happy Holidays!!!

"I mean, the end of Slavery is one thing, but... but... but Property Rights"

If you have property rights, you end slavery, because you own yourself (i.e., no one else owns you = no slavery).

White supremacists don't want property rights and neither do collectivists. You have to get past what you read back in your elementary school Weekly Reader.

Pardon to all for the repeated post glitch.

To everyone who thinks that discussions of alternative means of ending slavery is some how a justification of slavery...I beg you slow down and consider engaging this debate honestly without imputing some non existent belief system on or some hidden agenda held by those who are willing to have the discussion or opinion including Rep. Paul.

Please abandon your conspiracy theories.

Also, for those who think that libertarianism would promote corporatism need to also take a deep breath and give the libertarian critique and honest look (again without imputing false motives). The libertarian belief is that corporations are creatures of the state receiving special protection by the state. The state as it grows allows corporations to grow beyond their natural size (the size and power that could exist in a natural free market).

This is why corporations seek regulation, subsidy, and liability protection...so they can beat nature if you will.

It's true that some of Ron Paul's ideas can be connected to some ideas of white supremacists. It would no doubt be just as true to say that some of Matthew Yglesias' ideas can be connected to some ideas of white supremacists. Matthew, here's a sincere word of advice: instead of insulting your readers' intelligence and making yourself look like a total idiot by trying to run such a baseless smear, why don't you actually do your homework and write something thoughtful instead?

Can't believe this Shelby Foote crap is still getting debated. The traitors, who are called "confederates" to assuage southern feelings, attacked Fort Sumpter, not the reverse.
How about tom'w we turn to that old canard that cigarettes cause cancer? Get a life, people.

Brent: Thanks for proving my point. As someone said elsewhere, Ron Paul supporters are the single greatest argument against Ron Paul's candidacy.

Rebublicae:

Why was General Cleburne shouted down when he proposed the enlistment of slaves in exchange for their manumission after the war?

Are there any references to black units fighting in the Confederate Army? Assuming the figures are valid, could many of the blacks "fighting" on the Confederate side have been their masters' "servants," whose participation was somewhat less than voluntary?

It is too easy to fall into the twin traps of apologizing for the war mongering political tactics of Lincoln or apologizing for the South and its inhumane system. Lincoln was a scoundrel and Southern leaders were scoundrels for not abolishing slavery. The people who had every right to revolt and use violence were the slaves (although in the process they had no right to harm innocents, such as children). Certainly purchasing the slaves and freeing them would have been a far better method than a war. On the other hand, Murray Rothbard, a major influence on Ron Paul, said that the only people in this situation who deserved payment were the slaves. They should have been paid by the slaveowners who had deprived the slaves of the just fruits of their labor, not by the federal government. That seems to me the only consistent libertarian answer.

I didn't read all the comments to see if this has already come up, but it seems that a pretty stong argument could be made (was made) that emancipation was fundamentaly a property-rights issue. Of course that's just how most ideological arguments--and arguments of self-interest--are made: boil everything down to the one area where you think you have the winning argument. ie., Illegal immigrants break the law. Are you for law breaking?

How nice to be able to ignore issues of what is practical, moral, or forward-thinking.

"There are definitely times during Ron Paul's Meet The Press interview where you wonder how it is that Paul got to me the protest candidate while Russert is the voices of sober-minded sensibleness:"

Matthew:

Nice typos. "The" in Meet the Press shouldn't be in caps.

We all wonder how, "Paul got to me". I'll bet you meant "be" didn't you? That pesky "m" key is awfully close to that "b" key.

And about those "voices" you're hearing. It's bad enough if you hear a "voice" which also happens to be the word you should have used here.

Personally I'd say "sensibleness" is wrong also. It probably would have flowed a bit smoother had you used "sensibility".

I'd say, considering you can't get past the first paragraph without making numerous errors it doesn't bode well for anything you have to say in the rest of the article. You've shown your intelligence level in that first paragraph.

You did graduate from high school didn't you?

To Mr. Henry Wallace:

I am confused by your point. You rightly, I would say, point out that slavery is an issue of property rights (self-ownership being the starting priciple of libertarianism), but then claim that starting with fundamentals is somehow too easy and that we should pay attention to what is practical, moral, and forward thinking. Are you saying that slavery is forward thinking, practical, or moral because the argument against slavery is based on nothing but self-interest? It seems to me that self-ownership is the basis of any practical, moral, or forward-thinking philosophy. The only alternative would be slavery. Perhaps I have misread the point.

As to illegal immigration, please state what your actual opinion is, and defend it, rather than state that opponents of illegal immigration are not practical, moral, or forward-thinking. (Side note: I have no strong opinion on this issue because both sides, I think, have valid arguments--along with numerous invalid ones).


Mr Yglesias,

This is one of the least researched posts I've read in awhile.

Dr Paul is correct, and you are mis-characterizing him.

In regards to the race issue, trying to attach him to undesirable and bad elements of American society is grossly wrong and immoral because it has no basis in truth.

Ask yourself this, "Why is it people of all races and socio-economic backgrounds are supporting him?"

Does that make the african americans or a hispanic like myself that support the man as evil as white supremacists?

Please, sir, do more research and if you have to post about him, please get it straight and get rid of the hyperbole and veiled attacks.

If Ron Paul is elected the corrupt special interests stand to lose hundreds of billions of dollars. It's the job of "journalists" such as Yglesias to make sure that doesn't happen.

He says it better than I do:

In actual fact, there is no such thing as a "free market." Markets are the creation of government.

Governments provide a stable currency to make markets possible. They provide a legal infrastructure and court systems to enforce the contracts that make markets possible. They provide educated workforces through public education, and those workers show up at their places of business after traveling on public roads, rails, or airways provided by government. Businesses that use the "free market" are protected by police and fire departments provided by government, and send their communications - from phone to fax to internet - over lines that follow public rights-of-way maintained and protected by government.

-Thom Hartmann

I don't know where people get the idea that Iran won't attack Israel. Iran already has attacked Israel, a number of times. Iran has already used Hezbullah and Hamas to attack Israel.

I'll cite the obvious; the author doesn't have a good understanding of the causes of the war between the states. Sadly, it's a common theme. Much could be said of his misguided views, but the most important point is that almost all of the founders considered secession such an important right that it was a given. Probably the most important of our founding principles. And we don't even have to go back to the founding period. I refer the author to the Hartford convention for a starting point. The tarrif issues too of course. Much more could be said.

So Yglesias is claiming that Ron Paul "overlaps" with white supremacist ideology because he believes that white supremacists have the right to free association.

Well, I assume Yglesias believes in the right to free speech, and white supremacists also believe that they have the right to free speech. So Yglesias' philosophy "overlaps" with white supremacists!

I assume Yglesias believes in the right to a jury trial, and the right to not be subject to cruel and unusual punishment. White supremacists, when accused of crimes, assert that they have a right to a jury trial, and to not be subjected to cruel and unusual punishment. Yet another "overlap" between Yglesias and white supremacists! That's THREE!

Dear God, Yglesias must be a white supremacist!

In what might have been his last treatise Karl Marx had some very interesting things to say in support of the South.

As to Paul, if let's say he were pitted against Kucinich, whom do you think would do a better job of distancing America from its albatross - Israel? Kucinich has a goodly number of crypto-Zionist Jewish liberals supporting him. I think he'd hesitate to look out for his country. Paul would do the right thing. He's for the most part- a morally intelligent pol and that's rare.

Wow, Matt, when are we gonna have another Civil War discussion? It always brings the people out of the woodwork who can quote chapter and verse on liberty, but somehow missed the definition of treason. On another point, I think Paul seems to be a nice fellow, but is kind of like your eccentric uncle who wants to start his own church because all the other religions have "missed the point" of the Bible. I see a lot of his followers someday drinking kool-aid together in a Guyanan jungle. A little frightening.

FREEDOM!

Telling, this guilt by association stuff.
What about all the Atlantic's pro War-huff?

Now its fear is present, real, dangerous, see?
Its fear is running down its leg: it's pee!

The Ron Paul Revolution are the people, free!
The Atlantic, a political wing of Washington DC.

Push people, push, chant "Ron Paul! Liberty!"
Cut the establishment's smears off at the knee.

No more slaves to the establishment or elite.
Rally, people, rally, get up on your feet!

March, people, march to the drum-corps & fife,
It's time for each to restore sacred honor to their life.

Looks like I was wrong about Marx's Southern sympathies. That damn Lin Biao tricked me. Never mind.

Oh my God! Someone question Honest Abe Lincoln, the savior and messiah of the slaves... Me thinks history forgets his real nickname, King Lincoln, as we was known while he was alive. How many people remember that he illegally declared MARTIAL LAW in 5 states and had one member of the Supreme Court arrested for protesting while issuing a warrent for the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court for the same reason. How many remember that he entered the Civil War without a Congressional Declaration of War, arrested anyone in the North who did not agree with him (a few thousand at least), all the while not even freeing the slaves that were still legal in DC and much of the rest of the North. Earlier posters are right, the Civil War had nothing to do with slavery, it was over the power of the federal government, which Lincoln liked very much. As a result, the whole idea of the President having extreme power whenever the hell he feels like it comes from Lincoln. But, oh, me forgets, he was a martyr so I should not critically analysis anything he said or did.....

In an era when the traditional media is in a rather desperate fight to maintain its keep against the Internet onslaught, it is sad to see venerable publications, such as the Atlantic and the New York Times, further putting their journalistic credibility on the line. That is however, exactly what they are doing by letting their writers make ad hominem attacks under the thin guise of unsupported claims and poorly researched accusations.

Ignorance is no excuse either; these organizations employee armies of fact checkers. (Besides, ignorance is clearly not the origin of these comments; the partisan political goals of the writers' and their employers are however.)

Anyone who spends ten minutes on the Internet can figure out that there is nothing in common between racist theology and libertarianism.

Nonetheless, we really shouldn't be surprised. Many of these publications are members of the corporate media conglomerates which Ron Paul claims to be a fascist threat to America, so we should expect their dependent minions to go on the attack.

Mr Burdell,
Well said. And Lincoln arrested well over 30,000 dissenters. He also used artillery in the streets of New York to suppress a draft riot. So much oppression, whole books have catologued it, accurately. Pure and simple, Lincon was a dictator. And did more to destroy our founding principles than any other.

Wow. I wonder if the smearbund is getting overtime pay for working today.

Hey smearbund, with your pre-written talking points:

YOU

WILL

LOSE

Welcome to the real world where real people want real liberty.

So spend your Christmas hunched over your keyboards like the blackened little souls you are. The rest of us are taking a break and will get back to exercising the pimp-hand on your stupid asses on the 26th.

"Now Paul is right to say that this is just an area where libertarian ideology and white supremacist ideology just so happens to overlap, but there you have it -- overlapwith white supremacist ideology."

Matthew Yglesias and White Supremacists both use the English language and the printed word to get their message across to the widest possible audience in America, however poor their message is and however poorly they draw conclusions from broad, coincidental irrelevancies.

Now this is just an area where Matthew Yglesias' methodology and white supremacist methodology just so happens to overlap, but there you have it -- overlap with white supremacist methodology.

See how easy lazy journalism, guilt-by-association, and irrelevant but offensive comments can be?

Just as I, and others, can't believe we're arguing torture in other posts, it's amazing that we're still debating the Civil War. To all you angry white males (and you know that's what you are) pushing waterboarding and/or secession, you have my sympathy. If things get worse in the U.S.A., there are a lot of countries where people like me can go, if necessary. If your side loses, your backs are against the wall: South Africa is gone, as are Chile, Argentina, El Salvador, etc. Maybe Belarus? Naw, they're still commies. Burma? Not caucasian enough. There is hardly a place on earth these days where a fella can set up a Fourth Reich or a risen Confederacy. But if there is, I'm sure Eric Prince will find it.

As a person with most definite Yankee roots (my family came to New York in 1836 and the first in my family was an ironworker who had introductory letters from Seward and worked on *both* sides of the lines in the 1860s, and a ton of my ancestors are buried in Queens and Valhalla), I can tell you point blank that the South could secede.

From above:
"But the legal question existed. Art I and VI can both be read to be speaking of the action of the states WHILE IN THE UNION."

This is entirely correct. Otherwise California would sign Kyoto (shudder!). BUT, the CSA was formed *after* the Southern states left the Union. IOW, the states had left already and were independent and then formed the CSA, all in proper sequence and form. Lincoln didn't know his law. There is nothing in the Constitution that prevents a state from leaving the Union, and specifically at that time the Tenth Amendment gives the States the Power to leave. Article IV Section 3 only deals with joining and subdividing, not leaving, and the Constitution was never meant to be a Roach Motel.

As for Fort Sumter, Lincoln specifically ordered it resupplied after being told by SC to leave. He resupplied, they opened fire, and the rest is modified history. So Lincoln's interventionist policies caused the bombardment and war.

Secession: caused by slavery (indirectly) and economic concerns (directly)
Civil War: caused by Lincoln's interventionist policies, slavery added later to fuel support in 1863.

Big difference. That war also introduced the nation to income tax (unconstitutional), suspension of habeas corpus by a President (unconstitutional), and mass oppression. Blame Lincoln.

Fast-forward 150 years.

Dr. Paul points out that buying out the slaves was the answer. The Civil War and all of the atrocities that came with it on all sides was not. 600K lives were lost and the repercussions are still being felt today (which is why it's talked about here!).

Despite him committing murder, John Wilkes Booth may have stopped a potential dictator.

That may seem like revisionist history, but there is plenty of evidence to back it up, and it has NOTHING to do with race, but rather constitutional principles.

Oh, and as for Doctor Paul:

"I think Paul seems to be a nice fellow, but is kind of like your eccentric uncle who wants to start his own church because all the other religions have "missed the point" of the Bible. I see a lot of his followers someday drinking kool-aid together in a Guyanan jungle. A little frightening."

A kindly, country physician whom I would trust to deliver my children but not to govern them.

What is the whole lock-step thing with these PaulBots? Are they all sockpuppets for the same single nutjob?

Henderstock,

The vast majority of anti-Lincoln posters on here are Ron Paul people, so I don't see why you'd associate that with support of waterboarding. None of the candidates are more openly anti-torture than Paul. To a libertarian, a senseless war of territorial aggression that killed 600,000 Americans and waterboarding are fruits of the same ideology, and we oppose them both.

At the end of the day I think liberals just don't understand Libertarians. To a Libertarian, Jim Crow Laws and The Civil Rights Act of 1964 are just flip sides the same evil coin. Our objection is to the very idea that government has the right to infringe upon personal liberty. Liberal hate Jim Crow, but accept the philosophical principle behind it. People who reject nearly every use of government force and people who believe government should be used to impose their own Utopian vision on society are never going to see eye to eye.

GFW: It's called our founding principles. Rep Paul is the only Presidential candidate openly supporting them. If there was another candidate who expressed these sound principles then many of the "PaulBots" as you call them would have another choice. That said, what you express gives a good impression as to how far our country has parted from these sound and wise views of our founders.

Russert asked Paul the wrong question. He should have asked:

"Wasn't it a good thing that somebody assasignated Lincoln?"

Why was slavery such a powerful institution in the south and not so much elsewhere? Could it have been as simple as just laziness?

Why was slavery such a powerful institution in the south and not so much elsewhere? Could it have been as simple as just laziness?

Mr Braum,
The system was instituonalized by the British during the colonial period as you likely well know. It was already a major problem by 1776. In fact, many of our founders not only wanted to get rid of it (and came close in 1791 led by Franklin), but realized it was doomed economically. That's right, cradle to grave care was much more expensive than than hiring private labor. George Washington realized this while managing his estate. It wasn't laziness in this respect. But the system was already well entrenched and there were no easy solutions even then. In the north too, but as the years went on they had less of a problem eradicating it because they weren't as dependent on agrarian concerns. But many from the north engaged in the slave trade heavily well after abolition in several states. Also, Virginia came very close to abolishing slavery in 1832, few people know this. Much more could be said however, it is a complicated subject.

"Even that, in my opinion, marks him a tyrant. Secession should be a legal option"


It's not mentioned in the Constitution at all. What is mentioned is the responsibility of the federal government to suppress insurrections.

I just finished reading several blogs by African-American bloggers in favor of Ron Paul, and now I find this idiotic article of some Matthew who has no clue what he is talking about.

My friends - even those that are registered Democrats - are registering Republican to vote Ron Paul. Articles like this one helped them make the decision. Even if you don't agree with Ron Paul on all points, the very fact that mainstream media attack him so viciously and ignorantly makes the guy worthy of our vote.

Houston for Ron Paul!

"The "contract" was a contract between the states...the seceding states were third parties to the contract, and had no right to interfere with its execution." -Jason C.

Again, this is slightly out of context, but the point remains. How can States be parties to a contract and third parties to the contract? Also, if the States are third parties, then they are the only objective party to judge the performance of the people and the Federal government in the performance of the contract.

You are just wrong. The States are the agents of the People. The States ratified the Constitution with the other States. No group of States had the right to force another group of States to be members of the Union. This was an at-will contract. The Federal government has no right to punish States for failure to perform their part of the contract. At worst, a State may be removed from the Union.

"After all, it has been clearly demonstrated in this post that the legal ability for states to do so are fuzzy at best (see the Constitution's line about states forming Confederacies). And yet, were the law is perfectly clear is that the treaties the US made with Native Tribes were bogus and fraudulent. And somehow people are moaning about the legality of the Civil War, no one is talking about the legality of the Reservations." -freddiemac

States are not allowed to form Confederacies, yet what is the punishment for their doing so? According to the Constitution, there is none. As such, this is an at-will contract the violation of which renders the contract null and void. This is exactly all the South wanted. The north did not ask for retribution, they just enslaved and killed dissenters. This is the system we have inherited. It is really no wonder that our government does the same thing to Indians as to the South as to the Middle East. I'm just surprised we haven't forced Japan, Germany, Mexico, Viet-nam, and Iraq to join the Union. I guess that would be too anachronistic.

STAND UP TO THEIR FEAR-MONGERING, YOUNG PATRIOTS

Tens of housands in a foreign country, dead.
Why? Why was the Press "misled"?

Say "no," no more death, debt or American taxpayer slaves.
No more elitists ruling hidden & without names.

Some say yesterday Ron "Beat the Press."
The establishment wept, in their shorts was a terrible mess.

Russert stuttered, stumbled, made himself look a fool.
How could he lose this important duel?

The Press, down, but not without a smear or two.
The State, down, & using the Press to continue the attacks anew.

We are the Ron Paul Revolution, you hear?
The people free, rallying, that is what you fear!

Where was the Press when thousands marched Sunday
For Paul through the streets of L.A?

What a shame, the press is & the State.
Freedom, people, march on, freedom is our Fate!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QD8vSST-bs8


"Governments provide a stable currency to make markets possible. They provide a legal infrastructure and court systems to enforce the contracts that make markets possible. They provide educated workforces through public education, and those workers show up at their places of business after traveling on public roads, rails, or airways provided by government. Businesses that use the "free market" are protected by police and fire departments provided by government, and send their communications - from phone to fax to internet - over lines that follow public rights-of-way maintained and protected by government." -Thom Hartmann

Governments interfere with stable currency to make redistribution possible. They provide a legal infrastructure and court systems to enforce the contracts that make government possible. They provide propagandized workforces through public indoctrination, and those workers show up at their places of business after traveling on socialist remanants called public roads, rails, or airways provided at taxpayer expense. Businesses that use the "socialized market" are 'protected' by police and fire departments in the racket, and send their communications - from phone to fax to internet - over lines that are subject to the political manipulation of special interests. If it weren't for the government, from where would air and sunlight come?

There may be several ponts to nit-pick and debate about Mr. Paul and his message, however there is no other candidate from either major party talking about issues that truly matter in a consistent, principled manner.

Two subjects of note, and very easy (I believe) to recognize where we are in trouble and must change:
1) Our foreign policy and belief in military interventionism
2) The use of fiat money to support the state

These are inextricably linked and without a doubt will lead to turning the United States into a second rate power. We will then get to fully experience what much of the rest of the world feels about the US when the Chinese or Russians have military bases in Mexico or South America, or aircraft carriers off our shore -- and suggest to us we change our behaivior or else...the same message we currently send to the rest of the world.

So we can listen to all the other candidates (democrat or republican) about variations of continuing to do what we have alwayds done, or we can change.

We are a better country than this -- it is time to change.

"Ron Paul received contributions from over 100,000 different people this quarter. He received $18,000,000 from those 100,000 people."

I notice that we're only weeks away from the first caucus and only 5-6 weeks away from the point the nominee will almost certainly be decided.

I notice also that Ron Paul is still polling in the 3%-5% range, where he's been all along.

And I also notice that - despite being so far behind and having so little time left - the Dr. doesn't seem to actually be *spending* any serious proportion of that money on, you know, an actual campaign.

I conclude this is all about the Doctor's retirement account. The Good Shepherd is fleecing his sheep.

Oh, and let's put all this "state's right" nonsense to bed. Ron Paul proved how little that rhetoric meant to him when he supported federal abortion restrictions.

All of you quit hurting my brain with your end slavery with less bloodshed obsessions. This is just racism.

All of you who wring your hands over children dying by our cluster bombs in Iraq and Afganistan, again I say racists!

3-5%, libertarians. Cast your votes and STFU. And get your taxes in by April 1, willya?

That's it, the only way to deal with this fringe cult of personality is match it. I propose we take Kucinich and fuse him with Gravel, Nader, and Lyndon LaRouche. Votetron attack!

Guess what... about the Civil war...

WHO CARES!!... jimminy crickets..

I care about the fact Ron Paul was RIGHT about the war as early as Nov. 2002... Ron Paul was RIGHT about the mortage issues... in early 2006... and about the DOLLAR COLLAPSE.. in 2005...

The Guy is a GENIUS.. and if we could have followed some of the advice he handed out at those times... We wouldn't have had the Iraq war now... thousands of folks loosing thier mortages.. and the FED printing money as fast as they can cut the trees....

And we would all be happier... prby talking about gay marriage.. or constitutional amendments and such...

The kind of issues the REPUBS love to divide the Country with...

that being said.> FREEDOM IS POPULAR.. and it MOST CERTAINLY BRINGS DIVERSE GROUPS TOGETHER...cause we are not about JUDGING we are ALL ABOUT GETTING BACK TO PERSONAL LIBERTIES AND THE U.S. CONSTITUTION..

Now if THAT is wacky....

Then I AM WACKY... and PROUD OF IT!

gfw,

"What's funny is their juvenile dogmatism, their know-it-all-ness, and their ability to justify literally anything Ron Paul says."

You don't find mean spirited generalizations--about a group of people who you can't even identify (other than the pejorative "Paulbots")--to be juvenile also?

*tsk tsk*

While Libertarians try to unfight the civil war and Ron Paul blovates on the North American Union the solvency crisis which has been mislabeled the sub prime crisis drones on.

There is only one solution to the crisis and that is the infusion of new equity into the now virtually bankrupt core of Wall Street finance. The only source for this new money is offshore, particularly China and the Middle East oil states, both of who through their sovereign funds took stakes this week in the Wall Street giants.

Now sovereign funds buying into public corporations does not threaten the sovereignty of the American government. I guess. After all in theory corporations and the government are two different things and for 70 years we have been told the government is the enemy of free enterprise. Besides if the Treasury Secretary, straight out of Goldman Sachs, flies around the world asking for cash infusions into Wall Street isn't free enterprise then what is? To me it's the logical end of Free Market Libertarianism. (That's sarcasm of course. Libertarianism like conservatism hasn't failed us because it's really never been tried.)

The recoupled and unregulated banking and brokerage arms of the Wall Street giants made a little mistake and created XXX trillion dollars worth of worthless financial assets. Well that's free enterprise for you. Let the animal spirits run free. Now free enterprise will provide the solution. Foreigners have lost their appetite for all that crappy paper and now they want a real piece of the action through direct ownership of American registered, but not American, corporations. They have the 'savings' after all, all those dollars we send them for stuff and oil. We don't have any savings after all, When interest rates were driven to 1% the message was clear, savings is for suckers and fools.

Don't worry Ron Paul. Nobody is going to replace good Americans in congress or in the White House, eva. We'll be as sovereign a nation as a nation can be. It's just that nations mean less and less and less and less over time as the modern business corporation has become the dominant human organizational principal. That the individual to a corporation is as much a piece of dung to be manipulated and used as it was to the great communist experimenters should never enter your pretty little head; less it explode.

http://www.beearly.com/pdfFiles/Coxe%2022122007.pdf

Sigh, still fighting the Civil War!

Perhaps those who say that property rights trump everything may want to explain why patent and copyright laws that grant expirable property rights are not absurd. If property rights can indeed be diminished for some greater good, then where should it stop?

"The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly." How original.

Like quite a few neo-cons who seem to explode with venomous hatred over any major political candidate who opposes unnecessary, offensive war and defends the American tradition of constitutional liberty, you pathetically tried to label Dr. Paul a "white supremacist" just because a few dubious characters support his unequivocal defense of civil liberties for all Americans.

But where were you the last time the venerable American Civil Liberties Union went to court to defend the right of KKK yahoos or Nazi skinhead creeps to march down some main street?? The ACLU does this to showcase its principled defense of free political speech, and good for them. This, however, does NOT mean that the ACLU lawyers APPROVE of Nazis, the KKK, or any of the other crackpot groups whose rights they defend.

One would think it would be unnecessary to explain this to a juvenile who has passed eighth-grade civics, let alone a big-shot Atlantic Monthly writer. You obviously believe that your Atlantic Monthly readers are compelled to answer "NO" to the question posed by that new TV show hosted by Jeff Foxworthy: "Are you smarter than a fifth grader??"

"The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly." How original.

Like quite a few neo-cons who seem to explode with venomous hatred over any major political candidate who opposes unnecessary, offensive war and defends the American tradition of constitutional liberty, you pathetically tried to label Dr. Paul a "white supremacist" just because a few dubious characters support his unequivocal defense of civil liberties for all Americans.

But where were you the last time the venerable American Civil Liberties Union went to court to defend the right of KKK yahoos or Nazi skinhead creeps to march down some main street?? The ACLU does this to showcase its principled defense of free political speech, and good for them. This, however, does NOT mean that the ACLU lawyers APPROVE of Nazis, the KKK, or any of the other crackpot groups whose rights they defend.

One would think it would be unnecessary to explain this to a juvenile who has passed eighth-grade civics, let alone a big-shot Atlantic Monthly writer. You obviously believe that your Atlantic Monthly readers are compelled to answer "NO" to the question posed by that new TV show hosted by Jeff Foxworthy: "Are you smarter than a fifth grader??"

I thought the Civil War was over States rights? Now that happened to be over the issue of slavery, but its overall ending of slavery was just what happened.

The more general question, is can the federal gov't regulate morality? Free society, markets, and negative execution of the law do a fairly good job of rewarding and punishing immoral behavior. Lets not forget that these supposed corporations ruling the country, were for the most part, created or furthered by gov't granted monopolies. The smaller the role of gov't the less opportunity there is to lobby, buy politicians earmark etc.

I thought the Civil War was over States rights?

Then why did the Confederacy Constitution prevent states from passing laws restricting slavery?

Gee golly me!

Thanks for this article on Dr. Paul. Paul's discussion with Russert on these issues was imprecise and poorly designed. However, let's not forget that the 14th amendment has been the nail in the coffin for state's rights for years. Under this ammendment, the national government basically holds the trump card over any internal state issue.

Perhaps this was needed because of the slavery issue. However, Paul is certainly right that the abolition of Wilburforce was far better than that of Lincoln--we still haven't healed from the wounds of the Civil War and it's great to hear this being brought into the debate this election.

Did you people watch the same interview I watched? Paul said he wouldn't support the Civil Rights Act in the way it was written out of respect for property rights, not from a racist position. That is to say, if the property rights issue were addressed with philosophical consistency he would have voted for it. He also stated his belief that there were better ways of ending slavery than a civil war. Seems reasonable to me. Yet somehow, many Dems here are trying to turn his positions into prosegregation, pro-Confederacy planks. I'm also still scratching my head about what's so "crazy" about his policy positions... do you mean to tell me that you enjoy sending $Billions in aide to racist and corrupt nations while this nation borrows $Trillions? You have a problem with pulling back our armed forces from the 130 and some odd number of countries we currently occupy? Perhaps you think taxes on wages aren't a soft form of slavery? Or, maybe you think that the Federal Reserve is actually a federal institution and that printing more money will get us out of the current global financial crisis. If that's the case, YOU are crazy, not Ron Paul.

I leave you with a clip from a recent article by C.J. Maloney:
---------------------

Is Ron Paul personally a racist? Since nobody can look into another man’s heart, only Ron Paul truly knows. I must judge him as best I can through his words and actions: we’ll look at words first, so I quote him on racism:

Racism is simply an ugly form of collectivism, the mindset that views humans only as members of groups and never as individuals. Racists believe that all individual who share superficial physical characteristics are alike; as collectivists, racists think only in terms of groups. By encouraging Americans to adopt a group mentality, the advocates of so-called "diversity" actually perpetuate racism. Their intense focus on race is inherently racist, because it views individuals only as members of racial groups.

That does not sound racist; I’ve read worse.

Yes, Ron Paul voted against honoring Rosa Parks with a Congressional Medal of Honor. Yet, he also did the same to the white skinned Mother Teresa, arguing that the $30,000 prize that comes with the medal is "neither constitutional nor in the spirit of Mother Teresa."

In that important arena of action, which answers the question will Dr. Paul use race as a criteria to break the Constitution, here are Dr. Paul’s words on why he disagrees with the Civil Rights Act, passed in 1964:

The Civil Rights Act of 1964 gave the federal government unprecedented power over the hiring, employee relations, and customer service practices of every business in the country. The result was a massive violation of the rights of private property and contract, which are the bedrocks of free society. The federal government has no legitimate authority to infringe on the rights of private property owners to use their property as they please and to form (or not form) contracts with terms mutually agreeable to all parties. The rights of all private property owners, even those whose actions decent people find abhorrent, must be respected if we are to maintain a free society.

Arun,

Most libertarians don't believe "intellectual property" is property. So there you have it. The do think such laws absurd and thus have nothing to "explain".

Come on, man. Technology would have eventually ended slavery, machinery that can do the work of a hundred men. anyone that thinks if there was still a divided usa and csa and there would still be slavery is just unreasonable. Slavery has never lasted longer than it's necessity.

Now Paul is right to say that this is just an area where libertarian ideology and white supremacist ideology just so happens to overlap, but there you have it -- overlap with white supremacist ideology.

This is soft-minded reasoning unworthy of publication.


Compare . . .

FREEDOM IS POPULAR.. and it MOST CERTAINLY BRINGS DIVERSE GROUPS TOGETHER...cause we are not about JUDGING we are ALL ABOUT GETTING BACK TO PERSONAL LIBERTIES AND THE U.S. CONSTITUTION..

with . . .

Technology would have eventually ended slavery, machinery that can do the work of a hundred men. anyone that thinks if there was still a divided usa and csa and there would still be slavery is just unreasonable. Slavery has never lasted longer than it's necessity.

Are you guys for freedom and slavery?

Maybe that's uncharitable. You're for freedom, but okay with slavery as long as it's needed?

You're just a commie liberal, southpaw. Why do you hate property rights?

As a lover of freedom I have no choice but to still be resentful of that evil dictator Lincoln and his oppression of peaceful slaveowners.

How do I feel about the oppression of slaves, you ask? Well I'm not black so I don't see why I have to identify with them. Instead, I'll try to argue that northerners were racist too and that the South seceded because of state rights.

Now you ask "if they were so concerned about state rights why did the Confederate Constitution prevent states from passing any laws restricting or banning slavery?" LA LA LA LA I LOVE FREEDOM YOU COMMUNIST.

The civil rights act and the 14th Amendment are all a crock of s##t. It's 2007, and I still don't have equal rights.

I'm also a gay man - who is more than a little Jewish - who supports Ron Paul.

"I'm 26 and that means it all is going to fall on my generation. SCREW THAT!! If Paul isn't elected, I'm moving out of the US ... I'll move to somewhere like Germany ...
Posted by Brian Plosila"

Dear Brian:

You do realize of course that you'll pay higher taxes in Germany.

Bye Brian. Don't let the door hit you in the fanny on the way out.

"Obviously, yes, there were better ways to end slavery. That's why Abraham Lincoln didn't run on a platform that said "let's have a bloody civil war!""

Yawn.

Why are you blogging about this? How is this even relevant to me as a voter? Can I get some discussion of the issues in 2007 and not the issues of 1860?

Based on many views here...I can tell there are not too many "readers" but if you are interested you can learn more below about how Lincoln's administration did buy and free some slaves successfully in DC. (:. not such a crazy idea.)

http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/featured_documents/dc_emancipation_act/

Southpaw,

You are chasing ghosts. There are no racists here.

Enough with the strawmen.

I would love to be familiar with a history whereby Americans' couldn't rest as long as a single man was in bondage....and would go to any extreme to end slavery. However, this is not the history we have.

Are you not capable of understanding how someone could be AGAINST SLAVERY and AGAINST WAR?

The quakers (in many ways the infrastructure of the underground railroad) held this view. It's an oldie but a goody.

I had to comment on this:

"Right. And, you know, the "War of Northern Aggression" rhetoric aside, it was the South that began hostilities against the North."

I don't know about that.

It was well within the South's right to succeed. I am no advocate for slavery, and I'm not a bigot, but that's the constitution - nothing gives the Federal government a right to prevent succession by a state.

Although this could have led to the continuation of slavery (and it probably would have), consider that succession might be a good thing, if we end up with a Fascist nutcase in power at the White House, and an out of control Federal government - which we have now.

I had to also comment on this:

> "The Civil War wasn't about slavery" is
> one of the great lies of our time. People
> say it often, I guess because it makes
> them seem iconoclastic.

It's because it's true.

The South's slaves were freed before the North's slaves were on the border states.

It wasn't about slavery, that's just the garbage you're taught in public school to give you the warm fuzzies about what a good thing the Civil War was.

It's the sad truth. I wish it was about slavery, I wish that our Middle Eastern Policy was about spreading democracy but of course I know about Operation Ajax. I wish our Federal government was mostly concerned about protecting individual rights, but I know about Operation Northwoods.

What you get taught in public school, and even private school, isn't really history - which is why they call it "Social Studies" today.

Ron Paul forever!!!

"Paul's economic ideas (protectionist trade, gold standard) have convinced me to never vote for him in ANY circumstance."

Um, Gunther, Paul IS all about FREE trade, not protectionism. The North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) is MANAGED trade, not free. It is the product of the corporatist culture of the Republicrats. Printed out, and stacked up, that treaty is taller than a man.
A gold standard is a policy supported by Hayek and, at the end of his career, Milton Friedman. It is the basis of sound money and TRULY free trade.
I am Canadian, and our country has been hamstrung by bad American monetary policy, protectionism, and pseudo-free trade agreements. Paul would open the borders economically and permit North America to amp up its trade and economy.

It is wonderful and refreshing when a Presidential candidate discusses American History going back to the Civil War. Two points I'd like to make: First, the North wasn't all that holy during the Civil War. The child labor going on in New England was appalling, and was very much a form of slavery. Second, the North did not want to take the blacks in. Illinois actually had a law forbidding blacks to enter the state. The South succeeded under Buchanan, who did not do anything about it because the union of the states was voluntary. The Confederacy had a plan within its Constitution, to phase out slavery within 17 years. Slavery was horrible, and it is tragic that our nation was even founded and allowed slavery to continue. However, the Constitution was adulterated in the Civil War process in a way that had nothing to do with slavery. Everyone should go back and study history apart from government education.

What's astonishing is people, now with the benefit of a historical perspective, are arguing that the states rights question on behalf of the South.

People, this was a society that was systematically enslaving it's inhabitants. At a time when such slavery had become anachronistic in Western countries.

Cut the crap, people. These wasn't an argument about tariffs. It was an argument about enslaving and oppressing people based on the pigment of their skin. It was about adressing an entire society that had become dependent upon slave labor and steeped in racial hatred.

That you would defend such a society makes you a flat out frickin racist. I mean worst than calling people the N word to their face. You're just a dead set racist and your frickin contemptible.

That goess for this asshat Ron Paul as well.

As I've said before, Ron Paul is NOT a "libertarian". He has some stances on issues that are "libertarian" (small "L") or "Libertarian" (big "L"), but basically he's a right wing, free market Republican - or perhaps a "paleo-conservative" as they like to call themselves now.

Matt's notion that dislike for the Civil Rights Act is "overlapping white supremacy" is just stupid. You don't "overlap" concepts. You overlap constituencies. Libertarians overlap sci-fi enthusiasts who overlap computer geeks. But concepts and the reasons people adopt them do not "overlap".

By the way, for those extolling Lincoln, Lincoln specifically believed that whites were better than blacks. He was most definitely a racist, although some argue that his opinion modified during the course of the war. One way he wanted to get rid of the slavery issue was by deporting all the blacks to another country.

Try this Web site:

http://caho-test.cc.columbia.edu/ta/13006.html

Quote:

"As Professor Eric Foner argues, it is clear that when the Civil War began, President Abraham Lincoln (1809–65) saw it as a fight to save the Union and not a struggle for the emancipation of the slaves. Like most white Northerners of his age, Lincoln was decidedly opposed to slavery but was not an abolitionist. Indeed, in the first nearly two years of the war, Lincoln was desperate not to offend the sensibilities of the border states, those slave states of the South that had not seceded. Still, the war was going badly for the North, and Lincoln realized that eradicating slavery would hurt the Southern war effort. Lincoln initially put forth a plan to compensate slave owners for freeing their slaves, along with a promise to colonize the freedmen outside of the United States. This was not the work of a man who believed in full citizenship rights for African Americans. When hundreds of slaves emancipated themselves anyway, by escaping to join Union troops, officers of the Union Army realized how useful the runaways could be and how their escape was hurting the Southern cause, robbing the South of needed labor and undermining the institution of slavery.

When Lincoln finally decided to issue the Emancipation Proclamation, it appears to have been more of a military strategy than the act of a great emancipator, and the proclamation in fact did not apply to the slaves of the border states, only to slaves in areas still in rebellion against the Union. Nonetheless, the Emancipation Proclamation further undermined the legitimacy of slavery and accelerated the departure of slaves from plantations. It also began the use of black troops in the Union Army in earnest. Eventually these troops would make up ten percent of the Union Army. They brought to the effort a determination to win that had been largely absent—or at least less passionate—among those soldiers who had been conscripted, or forced, into the army. When the black troops continually distinguished themselves upon the field of battle, Lincoln's view of African Americans, and the view of the majority in the North, appears to have changed (See DBQ #1). True, black soldiers were initially paid less than whites. But Lincoln also insisted—with mixed success—that any black soldiers captured by the South be treated equally with white prisoners of war. Lincoln said late in the war that the introduction of the black soldiers had been decisive to the Northern victory. So impressed was he that he became the leading force behind a constitutional amendment to abolish slavery throughout the United States.

Although we do not know for certain if Lincoln would have also supported full citizenship rights for African American men had he lived to serve out his second term, Professor Foner seems to think Lincoln was clearly headed in that direction. Regardless, it is a fact that African American service in the war had "placed the question of black citizenship on the national agenda." Northern opinion had been so clearly affected by the participation of the black troops in the war that the Fourteenth and Fifteenth Amendments eventually granted full constitutional rights to African American men."


In other words, guys, Lincoln only freed the slaves because he believed it would help defeat the South.


Here's another useful recap of Lincoln's attitudes about a number of things:

Abraham Lincoln In His Own Words
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig/young8.html

Money quote:

"I have no objection to its being made express and irrevocable." ~ Lincoln, speaking in regards to slavery and in support of a proposed Thirteenth Amendment to explicitly guarantee slavery.

"I, as well as Judge Douglas, am in favor of the race to which I belong having the superior position. I have never said anything to the contrary." ~ Lincoln, Aug. 21, 1858, in remarks stating his belief that blacks were naturally inferior to whites, which was a nearly universal belief on the part of whites in both the North and South long before and long after the Civil War.

"The original proclamation has no... legal justification, except as a military measure." ~ Lincoln, in a letter to Treasury Secretary Salmon P. Chase.

"If I could save the Union without freeing a single slave, I would."
-Abraham Lincoln

We prefer to pay $90 per barrel for oil and get called imperialists by ignorant leftists, instead of acting like real imperialists and taking the oil.
----
No, that was what Iraq was supposed to be about until the wheels came off. We're just failed imperialists.


-------------------------------

This gets me. Why do people equate price at the pump with the success of imperialism? Are they attacking this countries to lessen the impact on your wallet---or do they get paid to break, build, and drill countries and what are the profits of those companies? Wait to see who is paying their speech fees and consulting charges after they leave public service.

Simply because Lincoln was a racist in today's terms doesn't excuse the profound and brutally violent racism that existed in the South.

The point is, the South had a racist system that it wanted to perpetuate, and that's why IT chose to initiate the war.

The North (or the Republican party) was essentially passive - it had no ideological agenda other that to *prevent the spread* of slavery. So even though it had beliefs and customs that we would consider regressive and bigoted today, compared to the South it was relatively more enlightened.

Really, the war was over The Southern Question, which was slavery.

The South's solution to this question, the solution they fought for, was more slavery at all costs, or at least the preservation of slavery at all costs.

That today, people still defend the South for undertaking such a solution is mind-blowingly, jaw-droppingly obscene and racist in the full sense of the word.

The North was a flawed, evolving society. That it was doesn't excuse the depravity that was the Southern system of chattle slavery. Of course it would have been better if Lincoln had declared the injustice of slavery and demanded the South abandon its practice. What would have been even better is if the South had voluntarily done so.

Enough with the historical facts you racists!

I have a simple vision in my head that makes me feel superior to people in other parts of the country.

Don't ruin it with your facts and reason. Facts and reason have nothing to do with my thoughts that the world is made up of good guys and bad guys or that wars are only fought for freedom of others less fortunate than me. Racists!

I like Ron Paul myself.

That people post "historical facts" about Southern grievances are essentially the same as people who might post "historical facts" about German grivances in Poland, or in Alsace-Lorraine, or in Czechoslavakia.

Of course there were grievances, some of them legitmate over the relative merits of what it was. But they are trivial and irrelevant to the larger, undeniable historical fact.

When a society, to its core, has become systemically tyrannical and it seeks to preserve its tyrannical nature, the small excuses about tariffs and territorial boundries are irrelevant.

Germans were murdering Jews and Poles and others. Southerners were enslaving blacks. The sundry political topics of the day can't disguise this fact.


Thing is, no one would dare post about how Hitler was "justified" in starting the war (well, maybe Pat Buchanan).

In moral terms, however, the Southern system is scarcely more defensible than the Nazi machine.

It's astonishing that people continue to do so.

Breathing is an activity that both libertarians and "white supremacists" both engage in. According to your logic, there is another "overlap" of libertarian and white supremacist thinking. This article is filled with fallacies, very stupid assertions, and illogic.

Go Ron Paul 2008!!!
Google "Ron Paul 2008"
Leapfrog over this smear campaign and learn about this great man!!

Yeah... and this coming from a publication with a caption that states, "...where you wonder how it is that Paul got to "me" the protest candidate..."

Nice story Atlantic, you should consider hiring someone that graduated from the sixth grade to write your articles.

Dave,

"The point is, the South had a racist system that it wanted to perpetuate, and that's why IT chose to initiate the war."

Did the South invade the North? Did the South want to take over New York and turn it into a slave state? I am missing something?

Saying that the South had a legal right to secede is different from justifying their motives. Can you fit all of that in your head?

OK for this next part, I will type slowly so you can maybe understand...

Pointing out that Lincoln was a racist. Does not excuse southern slave holder of anything. The two are two separate people and two separate sins. It simply goes to motive and of what Lincoln's motives really consisted.

Dave,

"The point is, the South had a racist system that it wanted to perpetuate, and that's why IT chose to initiate the war."

Did the South invade the North? Did the South want to take over New York and turn it into a slave state? Am I missing something?

Saying that the South had a legal right to secede is different from justifying their motives. Can you fit all of that in your head?

OK for this next part, I will type slowly so you can maybe understand...

Pointing out that Lincoln was a racist. Does not excuse southern slave holder of anything. The two are two separate people and two separate sins. It simply goes to motive and of what Lincoln's motives really consisted.

"are essentially the same as people who might post "historical facts" about German grivances [SIC]"

All I can say is "wow." How are they the same people? I think you are jumping to a prejudicial view here. Amazing.

No one is justifying the South as slave holders nor their motives to leave the United States to the extent those motives were based on slavery. A few thinking folks are simply pointing out that the South had a legal right to leave the union irrespective of their motive or purpose for doing so.

Are you also suggesting here that the US or anyone else for that matter fought Germany to free the jews? Please say you are...I want to confirm my prejudices about you.

Dave,

Pardon the hostile tone..It is just a shame when thoughtful conversation gets shouted down by inflammatory accusations.

Have a happy holidays. Sincerely.

LP

The revisionist argument that the Civil War was really about states' rights, not slavery, is undercut by the text of the Confederate constition, which required all Confederate states to recognize slavery and required slavery in any new states. So much for highly vaunted states rights.

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/csa/csa.htm

Article I. Sec. 9(I)(4). No bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law denying or impairing the right of property in negro slaves shall be passed.

Article IV. Sec. 2. (I) The citizens of each State shall be entitled to all the privileges and immunities of citizens in the several States; and shall have the right of transit and sojourn in any State of this Confederacy, with their slaves and other property; and the right of property in said slaves shall not be thereby impaired.

Article IV. Sec. 3. The Confederate States may acquire new territory; and Congress shall have power to legislate and provide governments for the inhabitants of all territory belonging to the Confederate States, lying without the limits of the several Sates; and may permit them, at such times, and in such manner as it may by law provide, to form States to be admitted into the Confederacy. In all such territory the institution of negro slavery, as it now exists in the Confederate States, shall be recognized and protected be Congress and by the Territorial government; and the inhabitants of the several Confederate States and Territories shall have the right to take to such Territory any slaves lawfully held by them in any of the States or Territories of the Confederate States.

Fascinating how not a single supporter of Southern secession here has responded to the point about the Confederate Constitution preventing states from passing laws restricting or banning slavery.

But we wouldn't want to derail a nice thoughtful conversation between hypocritical racists by calling names now would we? Merry Christmas!

"Robert E. Lee didn't own slaves." No, but the Confederate President Jeff Davis did. So did most of the Confederate generals and many of their soldiers. There are stories of them taking them into war with them so they could do their laundry and put their boots on for their masters.

What's your point? For the record, Ulysses S. Grant, and William T. Shermam didn't own slaves and they kicked the South's lily-white asses.

The property issue is a "red herring." The Civil War was a slave-based issue that resulted in secession.

It pains me to read the posting from the youngster who was taught in South Carolina that firing on Fort Sumpter was related to shipping and economics. Sounds like "No Child Left Behind" has really done its stuff. Time to re-educate the South, I see.

Bottom line: Most of the above discussion clearly shows Ron Paul and his supporters to be unhidden racists.

I'm tired of fighting the uncivil war with you assholes. Women and blacks (oh yes, and brown people, too!) do get the right to vote, and live, and work, and eat where they want in this country. If you cannot understand that then you should be have your lily white (and undoubtrably fat) asses slammed in jail (or sent to Canada) for the balance of your lives. We have no use for you.

If you cannot have the decency to treat everyone equal, then you need to go away.

"Fascinating how not a single supporter of Southern secession here has responded to the point about the Confederate Constitution preventing states from passing laws restricting or banning slavery."

Allow a YANKEE to respond:

What the CSA did in their Constitution is _irrelevant_ to the USA Constitution.

Under the principles of national sovereignty they were free to do exactly that, even if it was abhorrent. The issue of the oft-misnamed "states' rights" (it's states' powers, duh! Only people have rights!) applies only to the USA Constitution where it was enumerated in the 10th Amendment. See my previous post above explaining the constitutional and historical issues.

That's not racism. That's civics and history.

Tannim: my point is directed at the "secession wasn't about slavery, it was about states' rights" dodge, repeated many times in this thread. I am not interested in debating whether or not the South had a legal right to secede (as SOMEONE LIVING IN THE 21ST-CENTURY this has about as much interest to me as Hitler's legal right to invade other countries and murder millions of people).

If the Confederates were truly motivated by the issue of state powers, they might have tried to increase state powers when they formed their own government. Interestingly, they did the opposite and mainly focused on making sure slavery couldn't get outlawed anywhere.

Similarly, when self-proclaimed lovers of freedom today express sympathy with oppressed slaveowners, I have to roll my eyes.

But now is the time to back away from the normative issues, and instead assume the mantle of an objective observer not interested in questions of right and wrong, but only with the letter of the law and that most sacred of documents, the United States Constitution. Then when someone asks you why Ron Paul wants to deny citizenship to the US-born children of illegal immigrants, you can shift back to being passionately concerned about justice and right and wrong.

No, there's no bait and switch to see here, no sir.

I'm an asian guy and I support Ron Paul.

Stop implying Ron Paul is a racist. Ron Paul is a man who fights for individual liberties.

He's right in that collective thinking reinforces the idea of racism. Reverse racism like affirmative action and the government forcing private business owners to do business with other races is also wrong. The Federal Gov can't change the mindset of a racist through laws such as the Civil Rights Act.

Screw Lincoln. The Confederacy had every bit as much right to secede from an oppressive United States, as the 13 colonies had to secede from England.

The civil rights movement was intended to correct the injustice of Blacks not being able to do things that Whites could do such as vote without intimidation, only sit in certain areas of public transportation, etc. But the pendulum has swung to the opposite extreme now where Whites cannot do things that Blacks can. Blacks can have an all black college, if Whites were to set up an all white college they would be condemned as "race supremacists" even if it had nothing to do with supremacism, and merely reflected an association preference.

Blacks can form the Congressional Black Caucus to promote the interests of black people, but it is inconceivable that there could be a corresponding White Caucus to promote the interests of white people. It is considered perfectly legitimate for Blacks to have an organization such as the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People, which seeks to advocate for black interests. But there could not be a National Association for the Advancement of White People without it being placed on the "hate watch" lists of such organizations as the ADL, SPLC, ACLU, etc.

The clear implication of all these double standards is that it's fine for Blacks to be concerned for their own survival and even "advancement" but that Whites must be content to passively accept their own racial annihilation through the velvet genocide of miscegenation. Whites must not be allowed even to merely advocate the avoidance of race mixing, let alone to preserve homelands where their survival could be assured, like the black and asian races have on this planet.

Paul is a loon. He's right about the war and right about America's need to end its empire and even reverse course. But he's waaaay off when it comes to the rest of his platform. Especially civil rights and the gold standard.

One thing that struck me most in the comments, though, is this naive and rather stupid clinging to the market. Someone mentioned that businesses should be free to restrict their clientèle in any way they see fit. Because if they do so, other businesses will take advantage of that and open up businesses that fill in the gaps. So no one really suffers.

Problem is, EVERY business prevented blacks from access in the south. The "market" couldn't redress that, cuz EVERYONE was in on it. That's when the government needs to step in. The market doesn't always act in rational ways. People make the decisions, not systems. And people carry a host of ideological baggage with them, prejudice, bias, stupidity and ignorance. A system won't overcome that if everyone making decisions in that system agrees. The change has to come from OUTSIDE the system in the form of a more powerful institution.

Libertarianism, overall, is an ugly philosophy, because it has no checks and balances on ignorance, prejudice, viciousness and stupidity. It removes protections against rapacious, repugnant behavior against others. It ASSUMES all the wrong things. The best political philosophy is the one that promotes freedom, while setting ground rules. As long as you're not hurting others, you're free to go about your own business. It's freedom with responsibility. Libertarianism is all about promoting the inner spoiled brat in all of us.

Letma:

The Southern political leadership wanted to perpetuate slavery, and expand it into newly formed states. They sought to do so through means that I would have thought would appall a Paul supporter, namely through censorship, restricting free speech, and use of the Federal government to force non-slave states to comply with provisions of laws such as the Fugitive Slave Act. Their attempts to perpetuate and spread slavery into territories such as Kansas were profoundly undemocratic.

The slave states were rapidly becoming a political minority, even with the preferential demographics in the Constitution. Before the outbreak of the Civil War, the non-abolitionist North (the vast majority) was content to let slavery die of its own accord. They were not inclined to let slavery expand in the United States, and opposed the use of Federal power to enforce what they saw as the perpetuation of slavery at the expense of their own rights.

The South recognized this as well and sought additional legislation and Federal powers that would force states to perpetuate and expand slavery, in return for not seceding. This insistence led to a split within the Democratic Party, and allowed the Republican Party to gain the Presidency.

Before Lincoln was inaugurated, states began to secede and seize Federal property. It is telling that Stephen Douglas, leader of the Northern Democrats, immediately sided with Lincoln, and in fact urged him to call up even more volunteers than Lincoln initially requested. It is also telling that the vast majority of Democrats in the North and West supported the Union, and fought against the Confederacy.

Someone said "Slavery was horrible."

There are all kinds of slavery. That which was in the southern United States was not anywhere near the same as the Hebrew slaves who were used to build the pyramids. The latter was brutal, the former was humane. Negroes in the south were generally well treated, appreciated and in many cases loved their "masters", and enjoyed a much better life than if they had had the misfortune of being left in Africa.

And what kind of slaves are the vast majority of negroes in America today? They are inner city welfare and drug war slaves. Their families are destroyed because welfare considerations dictate that mothers remain single, and potential fathers are in jail for victimless crimes.

I'd characterize the slavery they groan under today as being considerably worse than what they had in the Confederacy, and just as brutal, though perhaps not quite as violent, as the slaves that Moses delivered from Egyptian bondage.

Amen, Richard Brodie!

Who was oppressed more -- the slaveowners or the slaves? Pretty obvious!

And I love your point that today "the pendulum has swung to the opposite extreme now where Whites cannot do things that Blacks can" and also "the slavery [negroes] groan under today as being considerably worse than what they had in the Confederacy."

Who would ever think that Ron Paul supporters are racist?

And why the fuck is "masters" is scare quotes?

Name one other presidential candidate that causes us to rehash these very important arguments about FREEDOM, JUSTICE, and the CONSTITUTION. Every other candidate for president is so pitiful, that all they attract is war-monger, rent-seekers, and snake-oil salesman. This debate we are having here is the debate that should be had at the highest levels of the Federal government every day.

I want to hear our politicians talk about the Constitution. What does it mean? How is it implemented? Paul deserves to be president for bringing the debate to the people, in terms we can understand, and unifying the nation in the call for freedom. All of the other candidates want to eliminate our discussion - quell our fears - ignore the hard questions and substantive debates.

The center of this nation is not between the Republican and Democrat leaders. They have used their power to focus the debate in a small section of the public - mostly inhabited by lobbyists. When Paul is nominated, you will see the People rise up, and the center move to where it Rightfully belongs. These other candidates are disenfranchising us. Paul is the only one willing to ask and answer the hard questions.

Its time for a REAL LEADER, not a poll follower.

Vote Ron Paul.

The institution of slavery was profoundly undemocratic and went against everything the Constitution said. Amazing that Ron Paul bots can keep their heads from exploding with all of the contradictions banging around in their goldbug brains. Slave holders used the Federal government for decades to secure that institution. It wasn't about "states rights". Weren't black people IN those states? Obviously, THEIR rights weren't being included. The rights of the POWERFUL within those states were being protected. Not the majority of people in those states.

Blacks were accorded fractional status as human beings in large part to prevent their votes (if they ever GOT the vote) from carrying enough weight to overturn slavery through democratic process. Given full citizen's rights, they would have, as rightful members of those various states, been able to vote for their own freedom.

That would have been the EPITOME of "states rights".

Government's function should be to protect the weak and the powerless from the strong and the powerful. It should have that role above all others, IMO, in America. And it's just common sense. Cuz the strong and powerful don't need the help. Right now, it seems that government is far more concerned with helping those who don't need the help, because it's run by those who don't need the help but want it anyway.

The wealthy, the powerful, the financial elite.

Wingnut libertarianism would result in no protection for the weak and powerless from the strong and powerful . . . The best we could hope for with such a moronic ideology would be an end to the aggressive support for fat cats, but with no restrictions on their rapaciousness.

In a true democracy, no one would vote for something so obviously against our best interests.

I'm guessing Richard Brodie is writing satire. I'm new to this forum so I don't know who he is. But his comments about the supposedly benign nature of slavery in America are textbook racist claptrap. If he isn't writing satire, then he needs to stop going to secret meetings, put down the propaganda, and wake up. Amazing that in the 21st century, someone still thinks like Strom Thurmond cerca 1950.

Richard Brodie's posts should be an indicator to those Paul supporters who do not happen to be white that if you lie down with dogs, you are going to get up with fleas.

Anyone who applies the term "wingnut" to a member of the human society, is automatically entitled to membership in the "Screw Loose Society".

Holy shit, go read Brodie's site! It's fucking hilarious:

CPG is a new writing system for the English language which achieves a unified system, melding the best aspects of the world's two principal writing paradigms: Western alphabetic scripts and Eastern logographics. It features three important innovations. First, it introduces the concept of using colors (chroma) to represent vowel sounds. Second, it treats consonant blends as letters in their own right. Third, it combines the phonetic (phono) principle of western alphabets, with the eastern practice of representing words as pictures (glyphics) which fit into uniform squares.

This article is one of false propaganda. Why is it that everyone against Ron Paul resorts to half-truths and even completely made up B.S. about things that didn't happen the way that they're characterized?

How dare people like you screw with our country like this.

In regards to Richard Brodie: It's that kind of thinking that lets something that I call "soft racism" to flourish. slavery wasn't ended because the slaveowners were unfairly screwed. Slavery wasn't about which specific rights they had. All forms of slavery should be overthrown because of something that some crazy people called the "founding fathers" said about inalienable rights. Even though I know there's a lot of hypocrisy in the founding of our country, I still believe in that tenet.

Black people should not be slaves to white men. They shouldn't be slaves to the state, either. We're all slaves to the state, though, because education is largely controlled, and stupid southern religious nuts say things like "now black people get preferential treatment!" How about treating EVERYONE as equals, period. None of your racist bullshit run-around?

I believe the only thing more evil than ignorance is willful selective memory. Who the fuck cares who got to sit on a bus? Everyone should have the exact same rights, period.

Amazing, 289 comments, and only one person pointed out the obvious, Iran has already gone to war against Israel, more than once. What difference does it make whether Iran "invades" by proxy or warhead instead of by its army? And speaking of crazy comments, what is this about Iran has "no army"? What was Iraq fighting for ten years?

Add this to the loopy comments about Lincoln "choosing" to go to war instead of buying out the slaveholders, and Ron Paul begins to sound like serious nutjob.


This is why this thread is an important debate. As long as people keep thinking that wars of aggression are acceptable as long as they can be later glossed by some ex post facto moral agenda, then the neocons will continue their imperial march:

"(as SOMEONE LIVING IN THE 21ST-CENTURY this has about as much interest to me as Hitler's legal right to invade other countries and murder millions of people)."


Again, the South did not invade anyone. There can be no comparison to Hitler.


"The revisionist argument that the Civil War was really about states' rights, not slavery, is undercut by the text of the Confederate constition(sic),"

Again, the motive of the south has nothing to do with whether or not secession was legitimate per the Constitution.

If the South was not slave holding and they decided to leave the United States because of a moral aversion to western expansion and the genocide of the Indians...could they have left then?

I can hear many of your answers to this question going something like:

"But slavery..."

At this point I want to pour coke on my head.

If we cannot learn how to reason as a nation. We will never understand Ron Paul and our empire will continue to expand and our children's future will darken. This is not hyperbole. This is history.

Letma, I don't see anything in the Constitution that forbids wars of aggression and the neocon imperial march.

Oh wait, that part wasn't in the Constitution, that was in our sense of right and wrong. Just in the way that when Hitler rounded up Jews and put them in death camps, that wouldn't have violated anything in the sacred Constitution but was still EVIL and WRONG.

Can I talk about slavery--

No no, let's just stick to the Constitutional issues.

Interesting dodge there.

Tom S.,

I do not quarrel with the fact that the South left the Union because of primarily the slavery issue. I do not accuse the South of being democratic.

In fact today the South has contributed less to the Ron Paul campaign than any other parts of the country...meaning they still trend autocratic, theocratic and aristocratic.

They held people in bondage for Christ's sake. The south cannot be exculpated.

BUT they had a Constitutional right to secede. It is the fact that people can't grasp that that scares the hell out of me.

The fact that the South had these motives does not mean the Northern industrialists, bankers, and profiteers possessed noble motives of freeing the slaves.

It is troubling that people think we went to war with Germany to free the jews or that we went to war with the South to free the slaves.

As long as we keep buying this crap, our leaders will continue to send our soldiers to war (our tax dollars will continue to kill strangers abroad)for the economic interests of a few and we will continue to go along making up bullshit moral excuses for our actions later.

Brodie,

As far as Brodie is concerned...the racist, "How come they get a miss black america?" styled whining is old and ridiculous and does not belong in this thread.

Ron Paul started this conversation by suggesting that there are better ways to solve problems than war and that 2 wrongs don't make a right...in fact they create more wrong at the end of the day.

Ron Paul is not defending or attempting to justify your racist bullshit.

"Thanks for proving my point. As someone said elsewhere, Ron Paul supporters are the single greatest argument against Ron Paul's candidacy."

I too choose my candidates based on who supports them rather than what they say or stand for.

It's easier than thinking.

"Letma, I don't see anything in the Constitution that forbids wars of aggression and the neocon imperial march.

Oh wait, that part wasn't in the Constitution, that was in our sense of right and wrong. Just in the way that when Hitler rounded up Jews and put them in death camps, that wouldn't have violated anything in the sacred Constitution but was still EVIL and WRONG."

What can I say folks? If you want to be led around by neocons and imperial marches based on a "sense of right and wrong" I can't help you. Just please don't draft my sons.

BTW the Constitution would have some due process concerns if we started rounding up jews and put them in death camps...just like we eventually will recognize that the Constitution does not allow us to round up muslim taxi drivers and render them to be tortured at Guantanamo. Think God we have the Constitution for a little while longer anyway. Maybe it will last long enough to free those innocents and give our nation our dignity back.


"Can I talk about slavery--
No no, let's just stick to the Constitutional issues.Interesting dodge there."

OK, I am pouring coke on my head now.

I don't get it. Why Ron Paul when Dennis Kucinich says and stands for the same things on all the major issues? Except once you get past the war and the budget and current trade policies, and government corruption...Kucinich remains down to earth sane with his progressive agenda. So why do these Paul supporters keep saying Paul is the only candidate standing for these things when clearly Kucinich (whom Paul says he would support if he were democrat)stands for many of the same things Paul does but on a much more rational level. Paul is only 50% good or right on the issues but Kucinich is 100%. I wish Paul supporters would put as much energy into finding out about Kucinich as they do Paul but I assume it is only because Paul is Republican and the republican's have no other candidate even close to being rational.

These are very weak points. Particularly the attempt to associate Ron Paul with white supremacists and the claim that their ideologies "overlap". Everyone's ideology overlaps with everyone else's. Most people think murder without consequence is bad, for example. He's intentionally non-specific because it's impossible to find anything close to substantive that indicates Ron Paul is racist in the least. This is all guilt-by-association smear tactics, and it's only fooling the most foolish of our populace.

Bjobotts,

I am a Ron Paul supporter and I like Kucinich. I trust he is honest and has good intentions. I just don't think socialism works in terms of providing for people and it certainly does not promote freedom.

One of my favorite people in history was Eugene Debs. I agree with all of his problem recognition. I just disagree with his solution to the problems.

The same is true for Kucinich and true believer socialist progressives.

Here is the upside. We can work together to defeat the establishment. We can argue later about the best ways to ensure liberty and keep everyone fed.

If you don't think Kucinich will win the Democratic nomination in your state, then please vote for Ron Paul. He has a real chance. The revolution has begun.

Letma says: "As far as Brodie is concerned...the racist, "How come they get a miss black america?" styled whining is old and ridiculous and does not belong in this thread."

No. What is racist is saying that "whites cannot have a miss white america." I have no problem with blacks having their own miss america, black caucuses, black universities, black history months, etc. because that demonstrates that they have a healthy sense of racial identity. But as Scott pointed out "How about treating EVERYONE as equals, period." Amen!

This is the big elephant in the room, that nobody dares to acknowledge. And what does not belong on this thread is using terms such as "racist," "whining," "old and ridiculous," etc. as substitutes for cogent argumentation. "Racism is necessarily bad" is one of those platitudinous memes that need to be challenged along with "We could not do without the Federal Reserve," "America has to police the world," "the Constitution is outdated," etc.

Daniel says: "I too choose my candidates based on who supports them rather than what they say or stand for." (I hope he really meant to say "in addition to" instead of "rather than.") Unfortunately Ron Paul seems to be the only candidate where the media focuses on the beliefs of supporters. This is really an unreliable standard. How many black nationalist NATION of Islam Muslims do you suppose support Barack HUSSEIN Obama? How many polygamists support Mitt Romney? Ron Paul's support is obviously going to be way more diverse than any other candidate because his is a message of freedom for EVERYONE, not just for those who choose to march in step with the politically correct drumbeat. He unites people. Only at his rallies can you see white nationalists coexisting and working alongside blacks together for the common cause of liberty. After the election we can get back to the serious business of hating each other :) - or, more seriously, of advocating our own respective survival interests.

You're doing a heckuva job, Brodie! That satire continues to be most amusing. You deserve a Mark Twain Award.

In the Federalist Paper #2 by founding father John Jay, we read [emphases mine]:

"With equal pleasure I have as often taken notice that Providence has been pleased to give this one connected country to one united people— a people descended from the same ancestors, speaking the same language, professing the same religion, attached to the same principles of government, very similar in their manners and customs, and who, by their joint counsels, arms, and efforts, fighting side by side throughout a long and bloody war, have nobly established general liberty and independence.

"This country and this people seem to have been made for each other, and it appears as if it was the design of Providence that an inheritance so proper and convenient for a band of brethren, united to each other by the strongest ties, should never be split into a number of unsocial, jealous, and alien sovereignties."

Jay understood that the words "nation" and "nativity" come from the same Latin root "natus" - birth. That is, a true nation consists of a people who descend from the same birthline. Look up "nation" in dictionary.com and you will find that its synonym is "race." Consider how far we have departed from that standard and replaced it with the notion of a "propositional" citizenry (anyone who professes acceptance of our national political doctrines can be allowed to join us, even if they are not united with us by the "strongest ties" (blood.) And then contemplate how the result has been the "splitting up" of our country into "unsocial, jealous, and alien" factions. Reality always asserts itself to trump unrealistic "progressive" idealism.

Wow! This topic has the Paultards and Neo-confederates coming out in droves. You could not have chosen a better topic to draw attention to.

I commend you on making the connection. "States Rights" is the battle cry of all these people.

Brodie,

You are welcome to your white nationalist thoughts. The ACLU and the libertarians will continue to argue that your small mind has a right to exist.

However, your droning has nothing to do with the topics in this thread except to feed the fallacy that the media is trying to display about Ron Paul and the freedom message.

Yes, SamDamnit and Yglesias the Ron Paul campaign will draw the fringe (White Supremacists, Black Panthers, Nudists, hippies, and Christian Fundamentalists) like moths to a flame.

The freedom message is not about empowering one group or another. So don't be surprised if the microminority (hate groups, religious groups, utopian groups, etc) support Paul. It follows that they would support Paul.

What the baiting media can't understand is that Ron Paul is also ambivalent about this fact. They don't understand that IT DOES NOT MATTER WHO SUPPORTS RON PAUL BECAUSE HE PANDERS TO NO ONE.

Thus with a Ron Paul presidency, you finally do not have to fear your neighbor. They will have no more power than you. The Constitution ensures this.

Freedom means that your crazy ass nazi or neocon neighbor will never be able to hurt you.

Ron Paul (to the extent he works to re-establish the primacy of the Constitution in this country,) will mean that the old group vs. group campaign in the media and in politics will no longer matter.

Increasingly, no group would have the power to shift resources and power from one another as we re-empower the Constitution.

Gotta love the Constitution folks. Relax you have nothing to fear.

Now, I will engage in group politics for a moment: There are two types of folks who are not yet on the Paul team: 1) those with authoritarian leanings and 2) insecure kids who want to be cool and are therefore too afraid to think for themselves.

I will never support any candidacy whose supporters mention the candidate's name 10 times in one post. It's a personality cult. If you believe in your ideology, argue the ideology, not the candidate. Though frankly, since your ideology is absurd, it's not likely to win too many converts either.

The claim that anyone who does not agree with you is not "thinking for themselves" has a fairly obvious internal contradiction.

I see you probably identify more with the former of the 2 groups. Although you reference that you want to be with the cool kids and the and the supporters are definitely not cool...hmmm.

Maybe you don't have authoritarian tendencies and you fall in the latter group?

This is a late contribution to the discussion, but I wanted to make a couple of points:

1. I don't think most historians believe that the Morrill tarriff was the main cause of the war. The 1828 tariff was higher, and even the Confederacy maintained a tariff on imported goods.

2. I do think that slavery in the territories was a major cause of the war -- it was main issue in the Compromise of 1850, bloody Kansas etc. This isn't a states rights issue, but it is an economic issue. Independent farmers from the north felt that they couldn't compete against slaveholders from the south.

Question for the states righters -- about the fugitive slave act, Dred Scott and other efforts to enforce slavery in the north. What if the North had said: "Go ahead and secede, but any of your slaves who want to move here are free."? I doubt the south would have gone along.

letma says: "The ACLU and the libertarians will continue to argue that your small mind has a right to exist. However, your droning has nothing to do with the topics in this thread"

It's nice to be in the company of another small-minded patriot, the honorable John Jay, President of the Second Continental Congress, first Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, author of five of the Federalist papers, and revered by Washington and John Adams.

Allow me to express my literally "undying" gratitude to the almighty ACLU and libertarians like yourself who are generous enough to allow me to live.

You are right about Ron Paul not being in 100% agreement with me, just as I am not in 100% agreement with him on all issues. And just as that does not prevent me from supporting him, neither does it prevent him from supporting my rights.

But to his credit he goes even further. He recognizes that the Constitution does not authorize the President to be the voice of some kind of national moral conscience. And so he refrains from publicly "repudiating" or in any other way denigrating the beliefs of ANY citizen, no matter how much of a "fringe" "microminority" they may be - as long as they do not use or advocate the use of violence against any other citizen(s). Perhaps that's because he knows what it feels like to be belittled as a small-minded fringe candidate. Or could it be he understands that using the office of the Presidency in this way violates the spirit of the First Amendment, which says that Congress [the government] shall make no law respecting [or disrespecting] an establishment of religion [belief system].

I hope maybe you see the relationship now to my "droning" and the topic of this thread.

I am a State's Rights supporter, because I believe that people should be allowed to segregate themselves. I don't believe that people should be forced to integrate with others who they would rather not. I accept this principle for the same reason that I accept the legitimacy of the Revolutionary War and the illegitimacy of slavery. I reject The Union's disallowal of both individual and State rights of secession as vociferously as I reject the same abuses by the former Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

If you will recall, the USSR did not allow the secession of many nations under its control - this was the Iron Curtain. The wall in Berlin was not to keep people out, but to keep people from seceding from the 'Union' of SSR. This idea, that arbitrary borders somehow create communities is regressive and oppressive.

The fact that slavery was involved in the souther secession really has nothing to do with the underlying political philosophy of Federalism. But, I do agree that slavery is wrong. It is wrong for exactly the same reason that Lincoln was wrong. Slavery is a denial of the right to secede. I belive that there were cheaper, and more philosophically consistent, methods of erradicating slavery - in particular, buying the slaves or allowing the south to secede, then passing laws in the north which protect slaves who escaped into the north as political refugees - undermining the practice in the south (much like we do with refugees from communist and oppressive nations today).

Secession is a right that cannot be denied to anyone - the American Revolutionaries, the East Berliners, the Southern States, or individual Slaves. When this right is denied, then we are no longer governed by consent. Lincoln has done irreparable damage to our Constitution in addition to slavery, not because of slavery.

TomS says: "Richard Brodie's posts should be an indicator to those Paul supporters who do not happen to be white that if you lie down with dogs, you are going to get up with fleas."

You'll have to ask SamDamnit about that. He has more experience in these things than I do - at least his my space page features a banner proclaiming:

"SamDamnit! IS FUCKING YOUR DOG!!!!!!!"

Letma,


Again, the "freedom message" does NOT mean that no one can hurt you. Unequal divisions of power in this country mean that those who are MORE powerful CAN hurt you, if everyone is left "free" to do as they choose. If there are no checks on that power. And that's what WILL happen.

The only way your bizarre theory would work is in a nonexistent world. In a world in which there were no unequal power arrangements.

Politics should be about the real. One of the biggest problems with Republicans, especially the neocons, is that they don't deal with reality in any way, shape or form. They lie about war, taxes, surveillance, climate change, science in general, their Constitutional powers, etc. They deal with their own special version of reality. Wingnut libertarians are the same in the sense of their inability to see the world as it truly is. They live in a bizarro world in which people will naturally behave themselves if left without any checks or constraints . . . that freedom itself would be their governor and prevent abuse, rapaciousness, oppression and repression.

Not gonna happen.

Ron Paul is a loon, or a very clever politician. Either way, he's not worth a single vote.

We have just experienced 7 years of goverment based upon ideology over evidence. We need to do a little evidence based research and see what types of governments produce the best results for their citizens. Which countries provide the best standards of living for their citizens? Which countries have the longest life expectancies, the lowest infant mortality rates, the fewest people in prison, the best health care, etc? Blind adherence to ideology - any ideology - does not seem to produce good results. It is that black and white thinking that makes people blind to reality and easy to manipulate.

Ron Paul seems to sincerely believe what he is saying. So does George Bush. So does Dennis Kucinich and Mike Gravel. Ron Paul appeals to our desires to have a hero who will save us from the world we have created. So did George Bush. So do all the other candidates.

When I look around the world at other countries - what little I know about them from books, movies, people I've met and a couple of out of country visits seems to indicate to me that there is no one superior ideology. The countries that have the best indicators of a good quality of life for it's citizens seem to take a more eclectic approach to government. A blend of socialistic programs such as public education and health care ( which is really a nation's investment in it's own future) with regulated markets ( because greedy people are not always good) along with a lot of personal freedom ( religion, lifestyle choices - anything which is none of anyone else's business because it doesn't affect them) balanced against the greater good of the society as a whole seems to go hand in hand with a functioning government and high scores on quality of life indicators. Ideology does not produce this. Transparent elections and informed voters who focus on policies rather than personalities or ideologies consistently do.

I would urge these newly reborn "libertarians" to look around the world and identify a country implementing these ideological principles that they think would be a good place to live. Be sure and look at statistics on quality of life indicators for the majority of the citizens of that country because that is most likely the type of life you would have. If you know of such a country, I would sure love to hear about it.

I may be a newbie to these PaulBot swarms, but Jesus H. Christ. If the thread gets to 50+, they will reveal themselves instinctively as southern, white supremacist assholes. All you have to do is give them enough thread and they will hang themselves by it. Wow. As someone said earlier: dog, fleas, etc.

If you will recall, the USSR did not allow the secession of many nations under its control - this was the Iron Curtain. The wall in Berlin was not to keep people out, but to keep people from seceding from the 'Union' of SSR. This idea, that arbitrary borders somehow create communities is regressive and oppressive.

The fact that slavery was involved in the souther [sic] secession really has nothing to do with the underlying political philosophy of Federalism. But, I do agree that slavery is wrong. It is wrong for exactly the same reason that Lincoln was wrong. Slavery is a denial of the right to secede. I belive [sic] that there were cheaper, and more philosophically consistent, methods of erradicating [sic] slavery - in particular, buying the slaves or allowing the south [sic] to secede, then passing laws in the north [sic] which protect slaves who escaped into the north [sic] as political refugees - undermining the practice in the south [sic] (much like we do with refugees from communist [sic] and oppressive nations today).

First off, these paragraphs make no sense. I wish that young idiots would let their betters have a conversation without their illiterate ranting cluttering up the threads. Second, I mean, what the fuck is your point? Why, to take one possible example, are you so invested in this revisionist history? Whose ax are you grinding? What maleducated hole are you living in? Do you have all your teeth? Fuck you and all your people.

Gerico stumbled onto a great point. Please look around: the libertarian experiment is happening right now in sub-Saharan Africa.

Who wants to move there?

Cuchulain:

The question is, which represents the greater threat to people: other people/businesses, or the government? There is no sure fire protection against other people: if someone were to come into your house right now and rob you, there is precious little the government could do.

What Ron Paul, along with the founding fathers, argue is that the greatest threat to our lives is the Government itself. This was amply illustrated by the Governments of Germany and Russia, which were put into power to benefit and help the people. As a general rule in history, no human institution has ever caused as much harm to the people of a country as that country's Government or that of a nearby country. This threat is supposed to be "checked" in America by the Constitution. Unfortunately, it isn't followed anymore. Simply ignored. Like it doesn't exist. We haven't even followed its rules for going to war in 66 years.

Want some reality? Here is some: The U.S. Federal Government is directed and funded by major corporations, and acts in their benefits first and foremost, 99% of the time. This isn't solely the fault of the Republican party, it is a fundamental structural problem. It's because only the very very rich have the financial clout to move things in D.C. Corporate lobbyists physically write many pieces of legislation. So, no matter what the propaganda cover, Govt. policies benefit major corporations the most and help others only to the extent that they become dependent on the status quo. The Federal government gives hundreds of billions each year to some of the worst corporations in the world. The government has become the weapon of corporations, the hammer of corporations, to further their will and eliminate their small business competition before they can grow up to challenge them. This is Mussolini's definition of fascism, the alliance of corporate and state power. We have it in America today. Want the Federal Government to restrain corporations from hurting you? They won't. They can't. They'll pass laws which will be selectively enforced to let the big fish off the hook, and hurt the small guy.

Ron Paul is the only candidate not funded by the biggest players in the game. That is why he is so popular, so controversial, and why the corporate controlled media say he has no chance. He has a chance. He has a damned good chance. He is not perfect, but if you give him the time to speak, his message is clear and consistent, and he discusses a lot of issues that no other national politician would have the guts to touch wearing a full set of plate mail. Americans are sick of this corporatism that is destroying the country and the economy.

Gerico: No, there is certainly no superior ideology. It's different for every culture. For instance, for isolated Mayan tribe members in Guatemala, there is no better lifestyle than their ancient lifestyle. It's not easy, but it's deeply rewarding, connected with nature and the divine, and uniquely beautiful.

Unfortunately, they don't use money much, so their GDP contribution is around 0. Their statistics are terrible. According to the numbers, they should be living in abject misery and starving to death every day. They're not.

Experience has shown that Westerners who come in and try to establish a more materialy "rich" existence only cause trouble and damaged the communities.

Similarly, for Americans, raised with a deep ethic of self-sufficiency, communal reliance, and enterprising bravery, there is really no better system than the Constitution, with it's emphasis on negligeble Federal government, and by implication largely decentralized, community, local, and state oriented programs. It's not perfect, of course, but it's better than the alternatives. That way, if one state wants socialized medicine and education, they can have it. If another state doesn't want it, they can choose not to have it. If you don't like the bundle of government services you receive, you can move to another state-much easier than leaving the country, which is now the only alternative.

This is called Federalism. Most people don't know what that word means anymore.

Ron Paul doesn't just sound like he believes what he's talking about. He's been talking about the same things for 30 years, and has lived his ideals about as honestly as any person can.
His two biggest draws are both policy issues: foreign policy and monetary policy. Following the Constitution could be considered a policy too.


As a side note, on the whole slavery thread, it seems slightly ironic that the same Army that altruistically freed the slaves then turned around and finalized the business of murdering and enslaving the Indians...