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Should Huckabee Read Karl Marx?

06 Dec 2007 11:23 am

Ed Kilgore recommends Rich Lowry's take on Mike Huckabee as "a useful reminder of the source of Huckabee's core vote for those progressives who view him as some sort of economic populist. In Iowa, at least, and probably nationally, Mike Huckabee's 'surge' is primarily a product of his success in remobilizing--and de-marginalizing--the Christian Right." True enough, but I think it's important to understand that Huckabee really is some sort of economic populist. After all, as Jonathan Chait points out:

Mike Huckabee has been scaring the bejesus out of the Republican establishment with his scorching populist invective. In one recent interview, the former Arkansas governor declared, "I am like a lot of folks who are tired of thinking the Republican Party is a wholly owned subsidiary of Wall Street." He has denounced "immoral" CEO salaries, and warned, "People will only endure this for so many years before there is a revolt." The terrified anti-tax Club for Growth is waging jihad against Huckabee, and Robert Novak has called him an advocate of "class struggle."

Populism is a political style, and that right there is the populist style as applied to economics. The problem is that his policy thinking is alternately vapid, confused, naive, or insane:

At the broadest ideological level, Huckabee is a conservative, happily paying tribute to the genius of the marketplace, the need for self-reliance, and other conservative standbys.

And, yet, his attachment to laissez-faire dogma is so tissue-thin that it can be blown to bits by the slightest brush with actual experience. Often this leads him in humane and intelligent directions, such as when he expanded children's health insurance. But it can also lead him to embrace simplistic statism, such as his crude protectionism and wholesale embrace of agriculture subsidies. ("Imagine the further weakening of America if we were also dependent on foreign sources for our food needs," he warns darkly, as if Al Qaeda will starve us into submission with a naval blockade.) [...]

The national sales tax is crazier, by an order of magnitude, than any other crazy idea I've seen at the national level. It's so crazy that even really crazy right-wingers think it's pretty crazy. [...]

So how did Huckabee come to support the fair tax? He was asked about the idea by fair-tax supporters on the campaign trail, bought the book touting it, and was persuaded. Lord help us if he gets his hands on a copy of Das Kapital.

Brilliant article, read the whole thing. To be fair to Marx, though, I'm not sure Capital really contains much in the way of policy recommendations. The Communist Manifesto's policy platform, by contrast, contains some pretty good ideas:

  1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.
  2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.
  3. Abolition of all right of inheritance.
  4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.
  5. Centralization of credit in the hands of the State, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly.
  6. Centralization of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the State.
  7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State; the bringing into cultivation of waste-lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.
  8. Equal liability of all to labour. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.
  9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of the distinction between town and country, by a more equable distribution of the population over the country.
  10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labour in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, &c., &c.

Number two and number ten are pretty much conventional wisdom these days. Point nine is essentially suburbanization, which I think has gone too far, but that certainly counts as a mainstream idea. One could construe point five as something akin to the current federal reserve system. With regard to six, our transportation system is overwhelmingly in public hands (i.e., the roads and mass-transit are government-owned, the airlines and intercity buses are not) while the communications infrastructure is privately owned by subject to much regulation. I have no idea what eight means, point four seems like a good idea but not applicable to present circumstances. Point seven seems to conflate a good idea (bring wasteland into cultivation) with a bad one (state-owned factories). Point three probably goes too far, but heavy taxation of large estates is certainly a good idea. All things considered, I think Marx's ideas here are considerably better thought-out than Huckabees.

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Comments (102)

you really, really want to prevent any future career in politics, is that it matt?

I keep hearing that The Fair tax is insane, and I don't doubt it. But, I haven't heard anyone say exactly why it is insane.

By the way, I think the moderate-appearing Richard Lugar proposed something similar back when he was running for Prez (1992?).

Oops. I meant that Lugar ran for president in 2000 (as if anyone really cares).

One could construe point five as something akin to the current federal reserve system.

No. No, you cannot.

Point five contemplates no private banks existing, and all lending were done by the Fed. No one thinks that's a good idea.

It's also worth considering what we think of point one (here's a starting point: it's really bad).

I would definitely vote for Huckabee over Marx.

Elvis,

I don't think Saletan is the only person who has a "contrarian tick".

We'll make a convert of you yet, Matt!

Why is "abolition of property in land" such a bad idea, Elvis? There's a reason economists object to "rents."

"Why is "abolition of property in land" such a bad idea, Elvis? There's a reason economists object to "rents.""

David Ricardo for example, basically hated landlords because of the rent they collected and the increasing rent he thought they would collect as capitalism progressed. (Its in his "Priciples of Political Economy and Taxation.")

Marx's daughter Eleanore wrote an essay about mistreatment of the Irisn Fenians - who were regarded as the terrorists of the day. Forget the name of it, but it sounded just like a modern critique of Gitmo that one finds in the Nation.

Huckabee's rancid populism is bad. Just bad.

As a funny aside - you can read lots of Marx's journalism durinh the Civil War and it sounds like it belongs in the Weekly Standard.

Love Marx all you want Matt, but point six there would seem to put you out of a job, no?

I don't even understand Lowry's criticism. Populism has always had links to cultural conservatism. I mean look at the countries with long Leftist and/or Communist governments -- they're not usually fans of sexual liberation, homosexuality, or even ethnic minority rights. The Democratic Party became the oldest political party in history partly by calling itself the "White Workingman's Party".

The alliance between cultural liberals and economic populists in this country is fairly new. In fact, the whole reason the modern conservative movement is powerful is because they actively started appealing to poor, cultural conservatives. Seen that way, Huckabee's uniting of limited economic populism with cultural conservatism is really just a reversion to the mean, and shouldn't be surprising.

"David Ricardo for example, basically hated landlords because of the rent they collected and the increasing rent he thought they would collect as capitalism progressed. (Its in his "Priciples of Political Economy and Taxation.")"

I should add he thought those bastard landowners would destroy capitalism. Basically, he figured that as the economy progressed more affluent workers would be better fed, creating more affluent workers. This would mean more mouths to feed. (As well as demand for their labor.) This would mean the cultivation of more marginal land. Food would be priced at the marginal cost, meaning that those landowners with good land would be getting a fat rent check, which would be the difference of marginal cost of food on marginal land and their production costs. This would squeeze profits from capitalists who would have to pay more to workers. Workers wouldn't benefit either because they would just be treading water. So, in summary: Landowners get rich, workers stay the same, and capitalist profits are squeezed--discouraging investment and destroying capitalism (possibly).

Well, obviously Ricardo (and Marx) underestimated the possibilities for raising agricultural productivity and for a genuinely global market for food. But the dynamic you summarize above applies quite precisely where land is genuinely scarce, as in growing cities. As an increasing portion of income goes to landlords, rising rents threaten a lot of the economic activity that has made the city successful.

And keep in mind, landlords qua landlords don't contribute anything to output. Again, there's a reason economists use the term rent to refer to income from unproductive activity. What's curious is that they are so quick to point out the costs of rents associated with, say, a government imposed monopoly, but not the much larger costs of the economically equivalent rents on land.

I should add that most industrializing countries have in fact expropriated their large landowners in one way or another.

Matt says "I have no idea what eight means"
Point eight is: "Equal liability of all to labour. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture."

I think what it means is that manual labor in the provision of general goods and services will be treated not as regular jobs but as public service duties that people can be conscripted into. Presumably Marx felt that it was unfair that the wealthy can avoid labor simply because they're rich. So just like how in Israel everybody has to serve a stint in the army, Marx wants an "army" of industrial workers, especially farmers, in which every citizen, no matter their wealth or class, must serve for some prescribed period of time.

I don't like the 'industrial armies' thing at all, and especially for agriculture. Also, factories owned by the State. They should be owned by the people who work there. Come to think of it, combination of education with industrial production doesn't sound too attractive either.

Populism has always had links to cultural conservatism. I mean look at the countries with long Leftist and/or Communist governments -- they're not usually fans of sexual liberation, homosexuality, or even ethnic minority rights.

Yes, the cultural conservatism of Sweden is infamous in Europe. If only the Swedes had the same tolerance that the US has!

MattY, for once, is right. The Communists had some great ideas, ideas that the Democratic Party continues to learn from. Of course, we need to separate those ideas from the execution of them, which was a bit sloppy: tinyurl.com/ytnuyy

As for Number Eight, I assume that means that everyone is required to work and also refers to things like kolkhozzes.

For more on MattY's favorite ideology, visit rwor.org

Meanwhile, I discuss a new Huck plan here.

I don't think "centralization of the means of communication" means "regulating the infrastructure." I'm pretty sure it means, "imprisoning or executing people who publish unauhtorized newspapers and magazines, like the Atlantic." I also like how Matthew ignores point one, which seems pretty central to Marxism.

There's so much in Marxism that is "culturally conservative." Centralization of everything, first of all. Distrust of bankers and such. Romanticization of manual labor and farm work.

"So, in summary: Landowners get rich, workers stay the same, and capitalist profits are squeezed--discouraging investment and destroying capitalism (possibly)."

"Rents" of course do not only apply to land & food, although many of the "refutations" of Malthus, Ricardo, & Marx partly depend on that limitation. For instance:

So, in summary: [Copyright holders] get rich, [artists] stay the same, and [distribution] profits are squeezed--discouraging [creativity?] and destroying [art] (possibly).

Populism has always had links to cultural conservatism. I mean look at the countries with long Leftist and/or Communist governments -- they're not usually fans of sexual liberation, homosexuality, or even ethnic minority rights.

Well, ajay has already done a job on this, but any study of 19th century Socialism or the turn of the century leftists like Goldman or the earliest years of the Russin Revolution, which started with a radical feminism would show that in professed theory if not in practice this is not true of Socialism, which is not populism.

Or one could read the Manifesto, via a more direct link than MY gives, and the long section on marriage, the family, women.

This presents a good opportunity to promote Henry George's "Progress and Poverty". Read "Progress and Poverty"!

So tell us, Too Many Steves, what's landlords' contribution to society?

I don't have a real thought-out defense of "landlords' contribution to society." But there are lots of other people for whom I probably couldn't articulate their "contribution to soceity." That doesn't mean we should take their property away. Any talk about who *should* own the land or the factories or whatever usually glosses over the fact that somebody already owns those things. "Redistribution" (or even better, "land reform") means taking it away from them. People don't like giving you their stuff, so that often means killing them. It's not a crazy fluke that Marxism always turns bloody.

Seriously, do the public schools not teach good old American indoctrination anymore? This reminds of the post the other day wherein Matthew asked, "are there really any principled federalists?" We learned about the Constitution and the Federalist Papers in like the 7th grade, and we learned why Communism is dumb at about that time, too.

"I have no idea what eight means, "

If Paris Hilton can't find something useful to do, we'll find something useful for her to do.

George being the originator of the actual "Fair Tax" (which is a "social value" tax on land, meant to discourage rent).

And while the national sales tax idea is daft, progressives and anti-imperialists might find it worthwhile to consider the historical and present-day connection between the income tax and warfare statism. Progressive though FICA may be (in theory), it has its dark, dark side.

Here's what Marx means in point eight.

"Equal liability of all to labour" means that everyone in society must work. No gentlemen of leisure, no slackers.

The "establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture" was a call to rationalize the use of labor. The "industrial army" was a recurring idea in many 19th-century utopian schemes. It was not a call for the militarization of the workforce. Rather, it was a way of organizing and employing labor in a way that got rid of the boom-and-bust cycles of factory work and the feast-or-famine swings of agricultural work.

"Seriously, do the public schools not teach good old American indoctrination anymore? This reminds of the post the other day wherein Matthew asked, "are there really any principled federalists?" We learned about the Constitution and the Federalist Papers in like the 7th grade, and we learned why Communism is dumb at about that time, too."

Indoctrination is alive and well, but I am an adult. And, actually, I am not even a Marxist too many steves, but anyone who has read a good portion of Das Kapital knows that Marx is worth reading and is much more than the caricature we have all been taught in schools. You might try actually reading him.

"That doesn't mean we should take their property away." ...too many steves


"Now, though this state of affairs would be quite compatible with some measure of individualism, yet it would mean the euthanasia of the rentier, and, consequently, the euthanasia of the cumulative oppressive power of the capitalist to exploit the scarcity-value of capital"

Keynes, GT, Ch 24

I really really prefer "rentier" to "landlord". But Keynes wasn't about taking property away, umm, well. Pitkin can beat me up on this, but I think it has to do with increasing the nominal money supply while simultaneously taxing wealth(not capital) to the point where rents are inflated out of existence.

"If Paris Hilton can't find something useful to do, we'll find something useful for her to do."

There are some hotel rooms in New York in dire need of a good scrubbing...

God, I bet 1:37 is really bad. I'm working on it.

Bob-

What Keynes had in mind was primarily increased public investment, to the point where where capital was no longer scarce so it was no longer possible to derive income from owning it.

i think it's interesting how quickly the anti-marxist argument, here represented by TMS, boils down to "I've got mine, so there."

During World War II, the entire male work force faced military conscription, so the choice was to enlist or get a war industry job that came with a deferment.

IIRC agriculture jobs didn't get deferments, but there was an awful lot of Italian and German POWs put to work as farm hands throughout the US and Canada.
http://livinghistoryfarm.org/farminginthe40s/money_04.html

Hey d, are you the d of LGM?

of LGM? What's that? I mostly post here, sometimes at Ezra's site, and, when I am feeling cruel, at Megan's. Why do ask?

Bob-

Anyway, you're right on the big point, which is that Keynes imagined a state something like socialism could be reached without expropriating any particular property owners. And capitalists seem to agree, since they are constantly demanding not only that the state respect their property, but that it artificially increase its scarcity-value, whether through IP monopolies or by refraining to provide equivalent public goods.

Too Many: ...usually glosses over the fact that somebody already owns those things

Hmm, but how do you know that they own these things? What if I say I own them?

Lawyers, Guns and Money has a contributor who goes by d. Thought you might be him, but seems not.

Marx was a brilliant guy, his materialist analysis of history was groundbreaking, and his contributions to economics are many. It should come as no surprise to anyone that his writings have plenty of useful things to say. That doesn't make any brand of communist politics any less idiotic.

Just for fun, here's a defense of landlords: yes, it may be true that there are some circumstances in which a landlord is a purely unproductive leech on society. One can imagine a landlord who has acquired title to some fully developed property in the misty past, and now simply collects as high a rent as he can every month, doing nothing.

However, that's not really the job description of many landlords today. Landlords generally serve as a combination of risk manager, gatekeeper, and service provider.

Risk manager: When you rent rather than own property, you pay for the privilege of being able to walk away from it. If the housing bubble collapses (ahem), or if the location for your store turns out to be unproductive, or whatever else, you don't have a huge investment hung 'round your neck -- you just stop paying rent and find a better location. The landlord assumes the risk that a property will suck, and you pay them to do so. If the property does suck, the landlord probably loses more money than they gained. If it doesn't, they profit. This is a very similar dynamic to other kinds of risk management, like buying and selling loans.

Gatekeeper: if you've ever tried to rent a store space at an exclusive mall, you'll know that it's not just like you put your money on the table and get the goods. Many landlords of more exclusive properties actively manage their renters to maintain that exclusivity. This, in turn, keeps the value high for their other renters -- it hurts your store's profitability if the stores on either side are old, dusty, and run-down.

Service provider: landlords typically provide lots of the day-to-day services needed to upkeep a property, from getting trees trimmed or taking care of your appliances to building parking structures. They pool the resources of a variety of renters to do this, and thereby helping provide labor saving and economies of scale. This can overlap with the gatekeeping services.

So, I'm not saying, "the only possible way to arrange society is to have landlords," but it seems facile to suggest that landlords are purely parasitic.

"To be fair to Marx, though, I'm not sure Capital really contains much in the way of policy recommendations. The Communist Manifesto's policy platform, by contrast, contains some pretty good ideas:"


This made me puke. is Matt serious?

It's worth noting that while "Capital" might not have specific "policy recommendations", it does advocate/require violent means to attain the "pretty good ideas in the Manifesto.

The left should not even mention the word Marx. Nothing good comes from his system of thought.

Jim W, the insanity of the FairTax is discussed many places, but probably the best source would be Bruce Bartlett's op-ed on it. There are a couple of missing words in the fourth paragraph of the linked version, but they shouldn't interfere with understanding it.

The left should not even mention the word Marx. Nothing good comes from his system of thought.

Lol. Yes, mass-lobotomy is the solution.

"It's worth noting that while "Capital" might not have specific "policy recommendations", it does advocate/require violent means to attain the "pretty good ideas in the Manifesto."

thehova: Could you point out where? Because I have only read about 200 pages of Kapital I, so maybe I am missing something. What I remember is an analysis of capitalism. Thanks.

Capital doesn't advocate anything. It's analysis.

I'm curious, tho, what other books and ideas thehova wants to put on the banned list.

You really have to be pretty clueless about socialist ideology to associate radical leftism with cultural conservatism. The Communist Manifesto goes after "the bourgeois family", and so at more length does Engels' "The origin of the family, private property, and the state". Socialism and "free love" were strongly associated in the 19th century - I remember in Samuel Gompers' autobiography he attacks his socialist opponents in the labor movement as crazy advocates of "free love". The Bolsheviks legalized homosexuality & abortion when they took power in Russia, with temporarily the world's most progressive laws on sexuality - Stalin rolled much of this back, however. Many of the founders of the gay liberation movement in the US were ex-Communist Party people. And you could make an even stronger case regarding race & racism.

Think socialist economic ideas are dumb, if you want. But it's a distortion of history to call socialism "culturally conservative".

Kapital doesn't explicitly advocate anything. But over hundreds of pages you start to get the message: real historical change occurs through a violent change in the human class relationship to the modes of production.


Marx never bought the arguments for slow, progressive reform. He could never conceive any positive change occurring with the old guard managing the reforms.

Marx looked at the French Revolution as the prime example. Did the King of France give the people more power and land on his own? No. it required violence. the people had to violently take power from the French aristocrats.

Marx's dialectical system requires violence because he doesn't believe anyone on top will ever pursue the interest of the working class.

"Capital doesn't advocate anything. It's analysis."

Wait, lemuel pitkin, you aren't saying that thehova is merely asserting things without knowing what he is talking about, are you?

Thehova, I very much doubt that you have read any of Capital. It has essentially nothing to say about the political process that will bring capitalism to an end.

And in fact Marx quite explicitly believed that a nonviolent, incremental transition to socialism was possible under some circumstances. Possibly in the US, where natural abundance and the absence of a precapitalist elite, along with political democracy, meant that class lines were more fluid; possibly in Russia, where the communal structures of the peasant village were a kind of socialism in embryo. Hopes that weren't borne out in either case but your comments have nothing to do with what the man actually wrote.

Ok, I lied. Marx didn't care at all about the French Revolution.

Marx's system was entirely ambivalent towards violence.

Marx stumbled upon THE WAY to interpret everything. All of those theologians, scientist, philosophers, mathematicians were wrong. They were just reacting to how their class relates to the modes of productions.

But Marx was right. He was able to surmount his own class condition to reveal everything.

I don't know that ignorance is improved by the addition of sarcasm.

Marx did care about the French Revolution. He did not, however, write about it in Capital. And in general he had very little interest in predicting future political developments.

Incidentally, you know what Marx said was the greatest world-historical event of his lifetime? The American Civil War and the abolition of slavery. maybe we'd better stop celebrating that too, just to be safe.

"The left should not even mention the word Marx. Nothing good comes from his system of thought."

Only someone who's never actually read Marx could come up with a statement like that.

And I agree with you, d, that Marx certainly didn't advocate for anything - he only analyzed. In fact, he revolutionized the process of analysis. Instead of looking at history unidirectionally, with function boxes and cause & effect and the like, he said, "Wait - that only makes sense in fantasyland." He said that everything is overdetermined - that any given cause is also an effect. When you think about it, it's brilliant. To me, it is the only "rational" way of analyzing a problem in social sciences.

Marx's thoughts on labor, as I understand it, could be boiled down (crudely) to a principle such as "Those who create surplus value should have say in how the surplus is distributed." This idea is the basis for everything that follows. It's what I believe in most strongly, as an economic principle. Worker cooperatives, unions - both follow this "dangerous" ideal.

All of those theologians, scientist, philosophers, mathematicians were wrong.

Certainly not all of them, since Marxism is derived from German philosophy, English political economy, and French utopian socialism.

ok, i'm out.

At the very least, we can say that Marx's system of thought legitimized violence in many historical circumstances.

And to quote Richard Rorty, "Marx is just bad philosophy". I think most economist today (including Brad Delong), would say that he is also bad economics.

"Marx's system was entirely ambivalent towards violence."

Yes, I think that's right. It was ambivalent towards violence. That's why the people who founded the Social Democratic Party in Germany could think of themselves as Marxists, but also why Lenin could.

You guys are nuts... Huckabee has been using populist rhetoric to market tax cuts to the lower and middle classes for over a decade. This is the guy who started the "Tax Me More" fund to embarrass liberals wanting to raise taxes. He has been pretty clear that spending and taxes at the federal level need to go down a lot. Huckabee has learned from being in a blue state that one must frame right arguments in a way that evangelizes those typically center and left of center. He does this to perfection, but he is not a liberal, he is just for cutting taxes and making sure the benefit goes to those who are poor first.

No communist would say that raising taxes for large companies is bad for the poor, Huckabee does. He makes it clear that raising taxes for the poor will only make prices go up and wages/services go down. Big corporations do not pay taxes, they are just tax collectors for he government. He is the anti Marxist on economics.

"And to quote Richard Rorty, "Marx is just bad philosophy". I think most economist today (including Brad Delong), would say that he is also bad economics."

Here is Brad Delong pondering Marx:

http://www.j-bradford-delong.net/movable_type/2004_archives/001384.html

And here are the folks at Marginal Revolution answering his question:

http://www.marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2004/08/what_is_valid_i.html

Good thing we didn't all just listen to our 5th grade teachers, eh?

thehova, you do know that many practicing economists today are Marxists, radicals, institutionalists, and the like? There are even academic, peer-reviewed journals of Marxist economic theory. Books, professors, research... it's all happening, if you know where to look.

I think, alli, that "Marx didn't advocate for anything" is a little strong, even if we're just talking about Capital. He was very supportive, for instance, of the eight-hour day (another once-radical idea that has moved to the mainstream.)

I do agree with you on the importance of dialectics. This has got to be one of the most misunderstood words in the lexicon (Edmund Wilson gets a lot of the blame here.) As you say, it simply means that in real social systems you seldom see distinct causes and effects, but rather things affecting each other, both ways. This mutual determination is especially important to keep in mind with regard to the relationship between society and our ideas about it.

"Those who create surplus value should have say in how the surplus is distributed." ...alli

"Certainly not all of them, since Marxism is derived from German philosophy, English political economy, and French utopian socialism." ...abb1

"The labour of his body, and
the work of his hands, we may say, are properly his" ...John Locke

Thorsten Veblen, in an essay available online, does an erudite rundown on Marx's debt to English Political Economy.

Marxism is the only libertarianism.

"...English system of Natural Rights. By his earlier training he is an adept in the Hegelian method of speculation and inoculated with the metaphysics of development underlying the Hegelian system. By his later training he is an expert in the system of Natural Rights and Natural Liberty, ingrained in his ideals of life and held inviolate throughout. He does not take a critical attitude toward the underlying principles of Natural Rights. Even his Hegelian preconceptions of development never carry him the length of questioning the fundamental principles of that system. He is only more ruthlessly consistent in working out their content than his natural-rights antagonists in the liberal-classical school. His polemics run against the specific tenets of the liberal school, but they run wholly on the ground afforded by the premises of that school. The ideals of his propaganda are natural-rights ideals, but his theory of the working out of these ideals in the course of history rests on the Hegelian metaphysics of development, and his method of speculation and construction of theory is given by the Hegelian dialectic." ...Veblen

Fun thread :)

Something that Marx definitely deserves credit for is understanding the fundamental power of capitalism--which is logical for him because of his materialism. Just re-read this famous passage and tell me it isn't relevant today:

"The bourgeoisie cannot exist without constantly revolutionizing the instruments of production, and thereby the relations of production, and with them the whole relations of society. Conservation of the old modes of production in unaltered form, was, on the contrary, the first condition of existence for all earlier industrial classes. Constant revolutionizing of production, uninterrupted disturbance of all social conditions, everlasting uncertainty and agitation distinguish the bourgeois epoch from all earlier ones. All fixed, fast frozen relations, with their train of ancient and venerable prejudices and opinions, are swept away, all new-formed ones become antiquated before they can ossify. All that is solid melts into air, all that is holy is profaned, and man is at last compelled to face with sober senses his real condition of life and his relations with his kind.

The need of a constantly expanding market for its products chases the bourgeoisie over the entire surface of the globe. It must nestle everywhere, settle everywhere, establish connections everywhere."

Actually, point four is dangerous, authoritarian, and the sort of thing which leads to dictatorship.

It's quite likely the worst of all of Marx's ideas.

Seriously, confiscation of ALL property of emigrants and rebels? ALL property? The clothes on their *backs*?

chukmaty, you missed the point of Yglesias's essay: Huckabee's policies are crazier than Marx's. Which isn't a good sign.

d,

Yes, that whole section of the Manifesto holds up pretty well. We can still see the revolutionary side of capitalism today, as it dissolves the traditional family and undermines traditional gender roles.

Reminds me, tho, of one bit in the Tyler Cowen post you linked to I thought was wrong. He says Marx "underestimated how well capitalism could solve its problems concerning the distribution of income." Better tow rite, Marx underestimated how well the state could solve capitalism's problems concerning the distribution of income. There's no question Marx underestimated the capacities of the modern state, but his descriptions of capitalist dynamics are remarkably un-dated. The discussion of finance and the business cycle in Capital Vol. 3 paints a very sharp picture of what we're seeing now in the housing market, for instance.

FYI, thehova, all serious economists consider Marx to be one of the most insightful analysts of capitalism. Now, his response to what he saw was "I don't like it, let's replace it with something completely untested", which most economists disagree with. But all serious economists, including right-wing economists, have to read, and accept most of, Marx's analysis of _Capital_.

Nathanael, how can one disagree with "I don't like it"? And why are so concerned about the property of emigrants and rebels?

late to the party again, but in reference to Jim W's question about why a regressive sales tax is a terrible idea, I'd put forward the following argument:

By taxing something you decrease people's ability to engage in that activity. A sales tax taxes people for buying things. So, we should expect a drop in purchases. But, and crucially, this drop will not affect everyone equally. The wealthy are more able to afford the inlfated prices caused by this sales tax, while the middle class and poor would feel the greatest amount of financial strain. Their purchases would be increasingly restricted to food, rent, etc. as you move down the economic totem pole. And for the wealthy, an increasing amount of their income would be put towards investment rather than consumption.

Now, this is a bad idea because: 1) we don't have a massive undersupply of capital in our economy. Interest rates are low, and have been for some time. So there's no need to radically increase the supply of capital. 2) Meanwhile, the steep drop in consumption would mean the end of our consumer economy - and this would mean a major loss of jobs for those involved in the production, distribution, and marketing of consumer products. 3) This would depress wages - which have been severely cut already in real terms by the sharp increase in the costs of consumption. 4) Because of this drop in demand, the likelihood is that the increased investment would take place in areas outside the US. 5) The global economy has depended for the last 20 years or so on the fact of massive US trade deficits - this is what we mean when we call the US the buyer of last resort. So a decrease in US consumption means a major decrease in global demand - something that would certainly negatively impact the current global economy.

So, to sum up - a regressive sales tax is objectionable for many reasons: it's vicious to the poor (morally objectionable), it hurts the middle classes (who are the bulwark of democracy - politically objectionable), it lower interest rates (by oversupplying capital) at a time when we are going to need higher interest rates to attract foreign capital, will induce a world-wide recession by destroying a major global market (i.e., the US), and dismantles the US consumer econmoy (economically objectionale). So, unless you feel that the poor simply have it too good, and the US economy could stand to lose a bunch of jobs, the world economy is making everyone too much money, and that democracy can survive with a shrinking middle class, then a national sales tax of over 30% would have to be chalked up as far worse than pretty much anything Marx (as opposed to Stalin, Lenin, etc.) put forward.

Good to see thehova's ass handed to him. Whatever one might think of Marx's writings as such, his influence on the Western way of thinking and perceiving, across disciplines, has been profound. So to plug your fingers in your ears ala thehova is just brutally ineffectual.

If anyone reads anything written by Karl Marx they will immediately take over their country and institute a Khmer Rouge genocide.

It's automatic and there's nothing you can do to stop it. Any words even vaguely connected to Marx act like a super virus that turns you into a dictator who kills everyone and destroys history for all time until Reagan comes along to save everyone.

It's far easier just to read FrontPageMag, because they will continually tell you what Karl Marx said while also inoculating you against its zombification effects through constant repetition of danger tones.

thehova: "Marx never bought the arguments for slow, progressive reform. He could never conceive any positive change occurring with the old guard managing the reforms."

Nonsense. One of the main points in the Communist Manifesto was that as long as the status-quo party has an awareness of history, and that history has at least a few instances of status-quo parties being sent to the chopping block, reformers can get a lot done with peaceful action. Most rational people realize that if they don't deal with a moderate, they will eventually have to deal with an extremist. That's how (Marx says) the 60-hour work week came into being, among other things.

abb1: "And why are so concerned about the property of emigrants and rebels?"

Anyone posting in this thread is contributing to a discussion that criticizes the current U.S. administration and is therefore aiding and abetting the Enemy in the Global War on Terra and is therefore a rebel. If the Communist Manifesto were current government policy, Bush would be able to confiscate all of your property and deprive you of the ability to defend yourself against the charges levelled against you.

Confiscating property was a trick used in the days of the monarchies to silence opposition to the royal family. The point of attacking the property of emigrants was to nail them when they weren't there to defend themselves. It is easily the worst idea in Marx's list.

"Good to see thehova's ass handed to him. Whatever one might think of Marx's writings as such, his influence on the Western way of thinking and perceiving, across disciplines, has been profound. So to plug your fingers in your ears ala thehova is just brutally ineffectual."


Ok, fine. I guess you all "win". Go on reading Marx and discussing him on this thread.

But that doesn't change the fact that no one really cares about Marx today. Yes, your history professor might complement Marx's fusion of economics and history. But that's about it. Other than that, Marx will only be brought up as a cautionary tale.

What I'm saying is not "right wing". Academia has largely dismissed Marx.

I have no idea why some liberals look to Marx for inspiration. Look to John Dewey instead.

I may be wrong here, but I don't think MY is actually advocating that Huckabee model his economic plans on the Communist Manifesto. I think that the point is to argue that Huckabee's existing views are so barren and idiotic and shallow that said Manifesto appears a million times more sensible by comparison.

" Marx never bought the arguments for slow, progressive reform. He could never conceive any positive change occurring with the old guard managing the reforms.
Marx looked at the French Revolution as the prime example. Did the King of France give the people more power and land on his own? No. it required violence. the people had to violently take power from the French aristocrats.
"

Unlike, of course, the situation in North America, where Britain granted independence to thirteen of its colonies in the late 18th century entirely on its own . . .


"This made me puke
Well, no one's stopping you - feel free . . .

He said that everything is overdetermined - that any given cause is also an effect. The first part of this sentence has nothing to do with the second part, that's not what overdetermined means.

Dan S., doesn't your comment support my point.

It was wrong for Marx to extrapolate the specific events of the French Revolution onto other historical trends. I stand by all of my comments.

thehova:

Don't you at least feel a little ashamed to be saying things like people shouldn't read Marx and we need to improve our propaganda in elementary school so people aren't fooled into reading Marx, especially considering you haven't read Marx? Or do they teach you to overcome shame in Rightwing School? Did you take a class at AEI or something?

Also, re: "But that doesn't change the fact that no one really cares about Marx today. Yes, your history professor might complement Marx's fusion of economics and history. But that's about it. Other than that, Marx will only be brought up as a cautionary tale."

This miight interest you:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/pressreleases/stories/2005/07_july/13/radio4.shtml

"Out of a shortlist of twenty of the best known, most respected and influential philosophical thinkers, nominated by the In Our Time audience, Karl Marx has been voted the Greatest Philosopher of all time by BBC Radio 4 listeners.

With an astonishing 28 per cent of the 30,000 votes cast, Marx - championed by author and journalist Francis Wheen - was the clear winner..."

Go listen to the broadcast, you might learn something.

It's also the case that I'm a *compassionate* conservative.

Re:
"Don't you at least feel a little ashamed to be saying things like people shouldn't read Marx and we need to improve our propaganda in elementary school so people aren't fooled into reading Marx, especially considering you haven't read Marx?"

Sorry thehova, I didn't realize it was someone else who mentioned the elementary school bit.

Also, re: "Marx underestimated how well the state could solve capitalism's problems concerning the distribution of income."

I completely agree. I am all for State-led amelioration, which Marx did disdain.

"The left should not even mention the word Marx. Nothing good comes from his system of thought."

How is that supposed to work? You need to pick up a new handle, guy, because there is no "left" without Marx. This might actually make a distinction in the hard to seperate world of American liberals and the left, because only a liberal could say this.


How is that supposed to work? You need to pick up a new handle, guy, because there is no "left" without Marx.

I'd agree with this, but that doesn't mean a lot of his ideas haven't been thoroughly discredited (including: "Centralization of credit in the hands of the State, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly," which MY seems to find so congenial--and which is nothing like the Fed).

There is no "right" without Hobbes (or Attilla the Hun), but that doesn't mean they ought to be regularly invoked nowadays.

In fact the original populist party in the USA basically proposed the program from the Communist Manifesto as its platform when it was founded in 1892

http://tinyurl.com/create.php

"the Populist Party in the US. Formed in 1892 in St Louis, calling itself the “Party of the people”. The Populist Party’s Platform was straight out of the Communist Manifesto, calling for a nationally collected graduated income tax, the national government take over of the US Banks, the US railroads, and the US telegraph. See (the Populist Party Platform 1886)"

I don't know how reliable the linked site is, but I remember learning this in high school.

Also George Orwell basically proposed the program in the Communist Manifesto as a prediction (just as Marx did in the Manifesto) of what the Atlee government would do (he was painfully disappointed).

I would guess people who you wouldn't think of as Communists have cribbed from the 10 point plan at least 10 times, but I haven't found the other 8.

Marx and Engel's realized the planks of the manifesto were outdated and needed modernizing within their lifetime. It's also important to note when dealing with the planks they were seen as transitionary, not a utopian ideal society.

and I'll tell you something else, if there is one more S&L bailout, or whatever comes to the aid of all the predatory bastards in the housing market in my lifetime, I'm rethinking my kneejerk opposition to just nationalizing credit.

It seems to me that one could argue that Ron Paul is waging a campaign that is both laissez faire economically and populist, in that he attacks the usual targets of populism (Wall Street and big business) but based on the idea that they are making money on government intervention rather than by the free market.

"...but anyone who has read a good portion of Das Kapital knows that Marx is worth reading and is much more than the caricature we have all been taught in schools. You might try actually reading him."

I'm sure it was required reading in the USSR, and they wound of thinking very little of it.

no problem D. You have brought up some good points.

And I have no problem with people who read Marx.

To me though, with John Dewey you get all the insightful and profound aspects of Marx while avoiding the baggage (and there's a lot of troubling baggage that Marx brilliantly disguises in scientific sounding language).

The point of attacking the property of emigrants was to nail them when they weren't there to defend themselves. It is easily the worst idea in Marx's list.

I don't think so, I think that idea is just fine and in line with the rest of the items on the agenda. For example, an immigrant can not be subjected to "equal liability of all to labour", so why should he have any rights at all?

You see, the immigrant is out of here, not contributing, not helping to build/maintain worker's paradise. Therefore he can have no reasonable claim to any property in this society, it's only fair.

You, guys, shouldn't make a fetish out of the property rights. Property is nothing but the stuff the society gives you, allocates to you, allows you have; this is true under any political and socio-economic system. The only way a king can keep being king is that his subjects don't rebel and kill him and it's exactly the same situation with the Exxon CEO. There are no god-given property rights.

This whole debate is rather silly. I know nothing about theoretical or analytical marxism but I do know:

1) Some german dude in the 19th century came out with some economic analysis in one book and some ideas for a different type theoretical framework in a followup book.

2) Some other dudes in the 20th century said, 'hey that german dude had a lot of good ideas, lets try to get as close as possible.' lots of people died, and their countries were economic disasters

3) Some other dudes in the 20th century said, 'hey that german dude has a few good ideas, but most of them are complete crap. Let's do the good ones, but ignore the crappy ones.' their countries had a lot fewer people die, and they economies did pretty well.


I mean, this is why we make fun of creationists right? Reasonable and consistent theoretical framework, but at complete odds with literally mountains of empirical evidence.

Don't you think there's some value in knowing that society, while it may collect certain taxes at certain times, or possibly even forcibly "purchase" your land via eminent domain (hopefully for bona fide public usage), generally respects your property? Would you want to live in a society where, at some point, you might find that, just as society hath given you a house where you live with your family, society now taketh away, and you and your family are given a month's notice to find new accomodations without compensation? I'm not talking about god-given property rights, or even necessarily fairness or equity here. I'm just talking about the ability of ordinary people to live a life that isn't perpetually insecure because their government has seen the truth of Proudhon's slogan. A society that has no regard for the concept of property will render the lives of its citizens every bit as insecure and tumultuous as one that adheres absolutely to free market principles while making no allowances for safety nets or regulation.

Well, Julian, any society has a concept of property, it's just that they differ. And different concepts have their pluses and minuses, trade-offs, like in everything else.

In the Soviet Union, for example, you couldn't own land or a factory or even an apartment, yet I strongly suspect most people felt more secure than people in the capitalist west. Because while you couldn't own an apartment, to buy/sell an apartment, you were entitled to a place to live. See how it works?

Of course they had a terrible economic system, weak incentives, etc, that's all true, but your point of them being "perpetually insecure" is certainly not valid, at least for that particular model. In fact it's exactly the opposite. Taking away the property right while making a job, shelter, food, medical care, child care, pension entitlements - that's a tremendous increase in security. But not without a trade-off, of course.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but an emigrant from one country is an immigrant into another country, right? So does this mean that Marx was advocating seizing the properties of Germans who had moved to, for example, the United States? And by extension, does that mean that Matt thinks it's a good idea that if I move overseas that the Feds should just grab all my stuff?

In the Soviet Union, for example, you couldn't own land or a factory or even an apartment, yet I strongly suspect most people felt more secure than people in the capitalist west.

No, they didn't. They felt very insecure, compared to people in the capitalist west. They felt at the mercy of missing out the next time meat appeared in a store but was gone by the time they got there, at the mercy of a falling-out with the boss who controlled their access to workplace-distributed goods, and so on. The sources of the sense of insecurity were different, but they felt insecure.

I think they felt a lot more secure than people in nascent-capitalist Russia did, circa 1993, though.

Let's see it costs about $.50/mile (and that does not include the cost of the driver) of which a penny or so goes to road building and maintenance which is done by the Government and this makes auto transportation a government function? We delegate the roads to government because they are so cheap even with government’s bad incentives and inefficiency the cost is not significant. The cost of collecting the money for the roads in a private system might out weigh the total costs of build and maintenance. Also local roads where always public use property by there nature. When I need to get to work and the government sends a vehicle to pick me up and drop me off at work then transportation will be Gov. run!

BTW communism and economic freedom are not incompatible some have theorized that as wealth increases at some point it me be possible to that most things are so cheap that you will be able to get the basics free. IMO basic food (bread, rice, corn, beans, greens and even chicken and milk) is almost there now.

Nah, it's not like that, brooksfoe. Not being able to buy meat is not insecurity, it's just a lousy economic system. You're not insecure if you know that you will always, under any circumstances have enough food (not steak, but adequate enough food), shelter, medical care, etc. In the west (well, in the US at least) a bunch of people - a significant enough number of people - will sleep in the streets tonight simply because they have no place to go and will sift through garbage or beg for food. And it can happen to almost anyone due to sudden illness, for example, or some other misfortune. Now, that's insecurity. Not being able to buy meat is something else.

"Don't you think there's some value in knowing that society, while it may collect certain taxes at certain times, or possibly even forcibly "purchase" your land via eminent domain (hopefully for bona fide public usage), generally respects your property?"

I agree Julian. As we have discussed in this thread Marx highly underestimated to possibilities of the State to amerliorate these problems. Under commmunism, many Marxists actually grumbled that the Swedes were doing a better job of reaching their goals than the GDR or Czech Republic. So, yeah, have secure property rights, the rule of law, a progressive tax structure, and a strong social state.

Globalization will temporarily slow unskilled labors rise in standard of living but I predicts that increase in industial worker will end in about 2050 unskilled labors rise in standard of living will accelerate as labor shortages occur.

On the emigrants/rebels thing, obviously what's meant is that in a country that has recently undergone a revolution of some sort, members of the old elite who are opposing the new government abroad should not have their property rights behind respected. This is how the new US government treated many of the Loyalists who fled to Canada -- their property was confiscated.

In any case, totally irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

Under commmunism, many Marxists actually grumbled that the Swedes were doing a better job of reaching their goals than the GDR or Czech Republic.

That's true. I remember watching a documentary based (iirc) on Khrushchev's diaries where he expresses exactly this kinda sentiment after visiting Sweden.

I think the problem with liberal social democracy is that the class conflict is still there, yes, ameliorated but still present; struggle goes on, the equilibrium is not often stable, anything can happen. Assuming, of course, that it is a problem, maybe it's actually a good thing.

Lots of people starved, abb1, does that count as "insecurity?" What about being sent to a gulag, or executed without trial? I feel pretty secure none of those things will happen to me, but if I lived in the USSR, I wouldn't feel secure about those things at all.

By the way, I made the crack about how we need more anti-commie indoctrination in grade school, but I did read Marx in college. I can tell for myself why it's dumb.

I was talking about post-Stalin years: no gulag there and nobody starved.

In any case, I don't want to defend the USSR nor should I have to; I was only using it to illustrate the point. Probably not the best example, I admit, but the point stands: you don't need to own property to feel secure, quite the opposite. If you want different examples of collective property, think of Israeli kibbutz movement (much more communistic than the USSR, btw), early Christian communities, and so on.


Comments closed December 20, 2007.

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