It's hard to express how odious I find Bob Kerrey. His behavior as a Senator was entirely discreditable, and it's hard to see that he's done anything good in his life in non-Senator roles. Keeping it up, he's now following up on his "Barack Hussein Obama" remarks by alleging that Obama attended a "secular madrassa" whatever that's supposed to mean. The Obama campaign's been pretty successful at painting Team Hillary as unduly nasty and, frankly, the stuff they were dishing out previously was child's play compared to this BS.
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Stay Classy, Bob Kerrey
18 Dec 2007 09:09 am
Comments (92)
Madrassa is simply a word for school. It has come to be synonymous with religious schools, but a madrassa need not, of course, be a religious school.
Kerrey is simply blowing his dog whistle here, because saying Obama attended a "secular madrassa" in Indonesia is about as intuitive as saying he attended a "secular ecole" in France, a "secular scuola" while in Italy, a "secular escuela" in Central America, and a "secular schule" while in Germany.
That is to say, not very...
Kerrey's a damn Democrat, not affiliated with any particular campaign and takes it upon himself to toss out this bullshit. Vito and Guido should pay his kneecaps a visit.
I for one believe that Bob Kerrey's record of child rape is an asset to him.
HRC reassuringly followed up by explaining that Kerry was only complementing Obama's international experience, with a name like Hussein. And that he would do a good job reaching out to Muslims. With friends like her...
In common English usage the word "madrasah" has been taken to refer to an Islamic religious school.[1]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madrassa
Team Hillary as unduly nasty
Some people call it "trying to win." Team Obama must have known stuff like this was coming.
Kerrey's a damn Democrat, not affiliated with any particular campaign
Kerrey endorsed Hilldog this weekend. I guess the campaign needed to put him to quick work.
You know, I agree with all the Kerrey bashing, but since when is he a Clinton friend? He and Bill have hated each other for years, even getting into a f-you Senator ... no f-you, Mr. President shouting match in the Oval Office. I guess it's possible that he always liked Hillary more than Bill ... but I think the more likely answer is that he's just an idiot.
Your colleague Marc Armbinder thinks you can chalk it up to ignorance on Kerrey's part.
Where do they find Atlantic contributors? In a sensory deprivation chamber at the bottom of the ocean? Or is he doing some running Howie Kurtz impression?
McKingford, in Indonesia they speak Indonesian, which is a Malayan language not even related to Arabic. The word for "school" in Indonesian is "sekolah". Saying Obama attended a "secular madrassa" is even stupider than the examples you cite, it is simply a slur.
Look, if Obama's sensitive about the fact that while Bob Kerrey was personally directing Khmer Rouge camps in Cambodia, Barack Hussein Al Majlis Abu Masri Obama was out training Indonesian child soldiers to fight in the Philippines' Moro Islamic Front, he shouldn't have done it.
Philippines' Moro Islamic Front
The Moro Islamic Liberation Front.
No need to short change the best acronym in terrorism.
Agree with this post.
Lied down with dogs, and you get fleas.
This is what Bob Kerrey is.
Hilldog she shall be, from now until John Edwards becomes the Democratic candidate. It's inevitable! Then she will simply be Senator HRC, Bill's wife, who, inicdentally, might not find it so easy to get reelected to her carpetbag seat next time round.
Maybe Kerrey wants to be Hillary's VP?
The Moro Islamic Liberation Front.
No need to short change the best acronym in terrorism.
That was a Cheetos-on-the-keyboard moment.
"It's something by the way I have told Bob Kerrey when I've met with him. It something that I've spoken about before. So this is not something that just sort of came out of the head birth out there in Iowa. I've thought about it a great deal. I've watched the blogs try to say that you can't trust him because he is a war criminal who has slaughtered innocents. I feel quite the opposite. I feel it's a tremendous strength whether he is in the United States Senate or whether he's in the White House, I think it's a tremendous asset for him."
wtf,
You don't need to make up shit about Kerrey to demonize him; he is a admitted war criminal and child murderer from his service in Vietnam.
I really disagree with all the Kerrey-bashing over these comments. I saw the CNN interview live and he was extremely complimentary about Obama and seemed quite sincere to me. This did not come across as a Mark Penn dig at all.
Did it ever occur to anyone that the problem is flipping out at the mere mention of the words "Muslim" and "madrassa?"
MILF is a club you can join?! Where do I sign up?
Well done vanya, and having spent some time in Indonesia, I should have twigged to that. (And Bahasa is damn easy language to learn).
Bob Kerrey's huge head is a good match for his huge ego. He was jealous of Bill Clinton for being way smarter and more successful and is jealous of Barak Obama for being way smarter and more popular. He lets his jealousy turn himself into a jerk. I pity the New School he runs.
Let's remember who Bob Kerrey is - a proven liar, who led his platoon in Vietnam to murder innocent men, women, and children, by ordering his soldiers to open fire indiscriminately on a village at night, wherein there actually were NO Viet Cong at the time. Then he lied in his report to his superior officers and covered it up. He had ordered the slaughter out of fear and cowardice in the first place, and his cover-up amplified his cowardice. That is Bob Kerrey.
War criminal. Coward. Asshole. Incapable of learning or of improving himself, in a country that is too cowardly to see itself as committing the war crimes that it has forever. A good match.
Love,
News Nag
It would be kind of cool, though, if he read the comment section of this and other blog posts, and finally felt enough remorse and self loathing to kill himself. I personally would smile and feel good about myself.
And cms, even if you are 100% right, which I doubt, I don't care. He is an unrepentant war criminal and present day warmonger, and any villivication, fair or unfair, is richly deserved. He is lucky that he wasn't hanged by the neck until dead as a war criminal.
Vanya is correct, in Indonesian the word for school is sekolah, a term which derives from Dutch and English. Indonesian, also called Bahasa Melayu, has borrowed many Arabic words; this is not surprising given the volume of trade in the Indian Ocean over the past 1000+ years.
I lived in Indonesia at about the same time as Obama; I attended what was usually called the International School while he did not.
For those who know little about the Muslim world, the key is that Obama lived in SEAsia, Indonesia specifically. Indonesia's Muslim parties have all supported a secular state since the early 1950s; this goes back to Masjumi. There have been schools associated with Mosques--usually called pesantren or perhaps sekolah musjid, but not madrassa--but these schools offer both religious and non-religious subjects (sciences, math etc) and have done so in many cases for over a century, even the schools founded by Arabs (mostly from what is now Yemen) or those which sought to bring in Arab teachers (a common phenomenon during the late 19th and early 20th centuries in both Indonesia and Malaysia, and one opposed by both English and Dutch authorities) to enhance the curriculum.
What Senator Kerrey is saying is that he's quite happy to talk about things he doesn't understand. How he will be heard or understood, given the generally slight knowledge of Islam and Islamic institutions, especially in this case Islamic education, in this country, is an entirely different matter.
cms,
I agree it is a sad world when people "flip out" at the mention of the word madrassah. But a. it is just plain factually and linguistically wrong to say Obama attended a "secular madrassah" and b. ask yourself, how in the world is that an innocent mistake on Kerry's part? You think he's really that ignorant of the connotations of that word to most Americans?
I don't know anything about the "secular madrassah" thing. But if any Democrat objects to the use of "Barack Hussein Obama", that's utterly hypocritical given the extensive use by Democrats of "George Felix Allen, Jr." in 2005.
Mem>...that's utterly hypocritical given the extensive use by Democrats of "George Felix Allen, Jr." in 2005.
I thought his full name was "George Felix Maccaca Allen?"
I don't care if madrassah is the word for school, continually throwing it out there is as much of a sly racist jab as if people kept saying Bill Richardson went to an escuela
Bob Kerrey's huge head is a good match for his huge ego.
I'm not sure if his head is really that huge. It just looks that way because his chin is so small. I always had trouble accepting the fact that someone so odd looking would run for president.
Again, this can't be repeated enough:
Madrassah is the ARABIC WORD for school. Indonesia is NOT AN ARABIC COUNTRY. The word for school in Indonesia is "sekolah." You can't even hide behind the notion that the madrassah is "technically" correct; it's not. This is just transparently vile, racist innuendo.
1) The internets, primarily the RW internets, but now increasingly other internets as well, have been propagating a false rumor that Obama attended a madrassa, was indoctrinated in radical Islam, and as a result, is a Muslim sleeper agent.
2) Obama did not attend a madrassa. The school was not called a madrassa, and this was Indonesia not Saudi Arabia, so it makes so sense to call it a madrassa as equivalent to school.
3) The use of the term madrassa over school is very clearly an attempt to invoke 1).
Sounds to me as if Hillary, when faced with the overwhelming powers of the Dark Side, could not resist joining.
Why is everybody so pissed off at Kerrey? Is it because Madrassa is some kind of slur? But why should we all care, unless the use of such a term might hurt Obama with primary voters? If it doesn't hurt him, there's no foul. And if it does hurt him with Democratic primary voters, what the fuck is it going to do to him with voters in a general election?
George Allen was desperately trying to warn us about Obama's "Macaca" insurgent terrorist movement, but we stupid liberals just thought he was making stupid jokes about a kid who looked part Indo-American.
that's utterly hypocritical given the extensive use by Democrats of "George Felix Allen, Jr." in 2005.
What am I supposed to get out of that? I watched that race fairly closely, never noticed it. A quick google search tells me that using his middle name is a quirk of people who found him repellent. What's the dog whistle though? I'm completely lost here.
A better classicist than me will probably point out that Kerrey's slimy indirect slam is a version of what my high school Latin teacher used to call praeteritio, used to famous effect by Cicero when he was trashing Catiline in the Roman senate ("I ignore, Catiline, the fact that others say you cheat on your wife..."). It is, rhetorically speaking, the oldest trick in the book. Literally. There's no way in hell this isn't intentional.
Barack Obama is the kindest, bravest, warmest, most wonderful human being I've ever known in my life.
More incentive to vote for Obama in the primary. I can't wait to vote against Hillary.
Re Jim W
I though his middle name was maccacawitz.
Al = stupid. Are we supposed to believe in this day and age pointing out "Hussein" is someone's middle name prods the same reaction as "Felix"? What, Tony Randall visages strike terror in the hearts of Americans?
Barack Obama is the kindest, bravest, warmest, most wonderful human being I've ever known in my life.
Wow. The man's a Medal of Honor recipient. And this is the thanks he gets from the left -- for using the term "madrassa?"
Get some perspective people.
So is this what you meant about the "fun part" Hillary? I'd expect bullshit like this from Karl Rove, but a fellow Democrat? Truly shameful.
So is this what you meant about the "fun part" Hillary? I'd expect bullshit like this from Karl Rove, but a fellow Democrat? Truly shameful.
I am an Obama supporter, but I'm not sure if this won't serve as some sort of useful test. Bob Kerrey might not have good intentions here, but the republicans sure as hell will use this...
The fact that an asdmitted war criminal is a medal of honor recipient is just another indictment of this disgusting, evil nation.
And I'm not on the left, not any recognizable version of it anyway.
Honestly, I don't know whether this was some tasteless conscious attempt to repeat Muslim... Muslim... Muslim... about Barack Obama or if it was just some Joe-Bidenesque ability to say something which sounds clankingly wrong while not really being ill-intended.
But it does allow for all kinds of amusement on blogs.
Barack Obama is the kindest, bravest, warmest, most wonderful human being I've ever known in my life.
For about 99% of the a**hole right wingers Madrassa equals "totally islamofascist terrist school for anti-american, merka-hating jihadis I just pissed my Depends thinking about". Kerrey KNOWS it. Hillary KNOWS it. The word never made the news for 99% of non-astute Americans until the War when we discovered all these countries, like our BFFs the Saudis, had 100's of Militant schools to train next year's terrorists (along with 1000's of ordinary, you know, edjumacational schools teaching the Three-Rs). Anyone who says otherwise is blowing smoke out their ass. A 'school' in Indonesia (oooh, big, scary, brown people-filled country with lotsa mooooslims!) is as 'terror training' as St. Agnes's Catholic School in Podunk, Northern Ireland.
Dog whistles for idiots. Unfortunately, it works.
Kerrey has never been much for playing nice during primary season. This is the guy who called Bill Clinton an "unusually good liar" during the 1992 election. Perhaps someone should ask him if he thinks Hillary is as skilled a liar as her husband, or throw that quote in his face in some fashion.
Actually, this was just an innocent mistake by Bob Kerrey. He was just trying to sound as well informed as Steve Doucy and Brian Kilmeade of Fox News who started the "madrassa" stuff in the first place.
Kerrey is a slimy, reprehensible piece of shit.
BUT he's just trotting out a preview of what is to come if we nominate Obama.
By the time November comes, half the country will believe he is a devout Muslim who sympathizes with "the terrorists."
The 2006 victory has made Democrats overconfident, thinking they can't lose in '08. We have to operate under the assumption that it will be as close as ever, and that the GOP will play the terrorism card to great effect once again. We can and maybe will lose this election. The conditions are favorable for us to win, but nominating Obama is a pointless risk.
It's hard to figure out Kerrey's motives. Remember how he called Bill Clinton "an uncommonly good liar"? So, why he suddenly all cozy with him and Hill? Maybe it's the Nebraska in him, but there's something painfully parochial about a politics that puts out miniscule talking points. Yeah, he helps to have advantages and so on. But when it becomes a game of inches, there's not enough arc to make a coherent argument. You're just playing a game to play a game.
Bob Kerrey and War Criminal do not belong in the same sentence. As a young man Kerrey answered his nation's call, went to 'Nam and at great personal risk to life and limb served as the part of the hand of American policy in southeast Asia. I find it very difficult to imagine day-to-day life in country but find it very easy to believe what nearly every returning combatant from every war says, that if you weren't there you won't understand.
Kerrey quote at wiki.
You can never, can never get away from it. It darkens your day. I thought dying for your country was the worst thing that could happen to you, and I don't think it is. I think killing for your country can be a lot worse.
If your country asks you to go to the other side of the world and make war then your country has to be very careful when grading the results.
I don't agree with Kerrey's comments on Sen Obama. There are plenty of ways to disagree without saying war criminal.
I was surprised by how many digs John Kerrey could take at Barack Obama in such a short time, and how backhanded the remarks were. Both Kerrey and Hillary Clinton - upon whose endorsement John took the opportunity to deride Obama - ought to respect a candidate who has treated them with respect. It's that trademark attack on others, that characterizes the Clintons so well. Well, Hillary has something she wants to tell you. She’s just too shy to tell you herself. Do you remember, after the fall of the old Soviet Union, the 1990s economy was driven by massive military cutbacks? The Clintons were savvy enough to plow lots of that dirty old money into the US Department of Education. (Teachers Union, already onboard with Hillary.) Beating swords into plowshares, the “peace dividend,” it was a job of work. Then, in 1995, Bill & Hillary founded the incredibly lucrative West Coast Finishing School for Thugs. The rest, you know, is history. But again, Hillary should be telling you this: http://theseedsof9-11.com
First, the term Madrassa(h) is not inherently a slur.
Second, Pakistan and India are not Arab countries, but there are schools in both countries which call themselves Madrassa(h). This is hardly surprising given that words travel down trade routes. Indonesian, a Malay rather than a Semetic language, includes many Arabic words--almost any word with an f or a z for example.
Third, many folks on the left and right as well as in the center know squat all about the Islamic world and its institutions. Ignorance (in either sense of the term) can turn a word into a slur.
I, for one, am not particularly interested in Kerrey's motives, only in his ignorance and the consequences of his speaking ignorantly.
But then I confess to being a Professor of Anthropology and a speaker of Bahasa Indonesia. Call me a pedant if you wish.
Obama's problem is that he began this by touting his 4 years of being a kid in Indonesia as uniquely informing him on how to live and get along with other cultures.
Something other American kids growing up overseas don't usually claim.
OK, but if we accept Obama at his word that that time was critical and shapes much how he thinks and gives him unique insights into Muslims other lack - then part of that is mentioning that Obama spent at least two years in a regular Indonesian school that did daily prayers to Mecca (including little Obama on his knees with his butt in the air saying nice things to Allah). That in the same state school, the Koran is woven into curriculum and between 1/2 and 1 hour was religious study. And when his mother pulled him after 2 years to go to a Christian school, many of his household rituals were Islam-based and continued from his Muslim step father and older Muslim step-sisters.
His other claim that his Muslim African family gives him deeper understanding is more specious because his Daddy abandoned him early and he never knew his African relatives until recently. He spent most of his childhood raised in a white family and no where near blacks or Muslims.
That is the truth, regardless of nuances like if he was praying to Mecca was at a Madrassah or a sekolah. Or he was part of family ritual to do shabat 5X a day until he was sent to live with his white grandparents....
**********
On Bob Kerrey - The fact that an asdmitted war criminal is a medal of honor recipient is just another indictment of this disgusting, evil nation.
And I'm not on the left, not any recognizable version of it anyway.
Posted by LarryM
Oh, no, LarryM! Just you spouting off about MoH winners being criminals and America being a disgusting evil nation wouldn't make anyone dream for a moment that you are a traitorous little Lefty! Why, you could be a member of the Phelps Church, instead.
If Barack Obama supporters are worried that Republicans will target him for the years he spent blowing up embassies throughout eastern Africa, just imagine how mad Hillary Clinton's supporters will be when they start talking about her massive Colombian cocaine cartels and how she and Bill personally murdered thousands of children on Arkansas railway tracks in Satanic Wiccan ceremonies.
I'm surprised at all the Kerrey bashing. I'm a Democrat from Nebraska and lived there when Kerrey was governor and then Senator, and he was one of the best elected officials I have ever seen. I supported him for President in 1992 and I'd support him again were he running.
Who cares if Madrassa is an Arabic term or not? Neither Pakistan nor Afghanistan are Arab countries, nor are their languages Arabic.
Do they have madrassas? Clearly, yes.
Do Muslims around the world commonly study classical Arabic in order to gain insight into the Quran? Again, clearly yes.
Oh, and you think this country is disgusting and evil?
Thank you for the latest entry in the Big Book of Why Democrats Lose Elections.
Fact is Kerrey is a good Democrat and an extremely smart individual who has been known to offer extremely astute useful quotes to help liberal causes.
Except when he behaves like an idiot and an ass, which was all too frequent and always particularly ill-timed.
We'll see him in politics never again, hopefully.
I don't know why people think Muslin is a slur...it is a wonderful fabric. If Obama can't own up to wearing it in the primaries, imagine how the GOP will hang this around his neck in the general...
McKingford: try to keep up to speed. Obama is not Muslim. You are asking him to "own up" to something that is not true, and which is being used to tap into racist paranoia. You may think "Muslin(sic)" is "a wonderful fabric", but that is not the general sentiment among Americans these days, if you hadn't noticed.
Whispers: Try to keep up to speed. Muslin *is* a wonderful fabric...
Bob Kerrey and War Criminal do not belong in the same sentence. As a young man Kerrey answered his nation's call,
Seeing as the war against the Vietnamese was an abomination and a war crime in itself, volunteering for it is hardly a point in his favour. The fact that while he was there he was responsible for the murder of civilians rather damningly makes him a war criminal.
Bob Kerrey and War Criminal do not belong in the same sentence.
BTW, I'll just let the irony of this "sentence" stew for a moment...
Oh, I get it. Politicians born in the 1940s who DIDN'T volunteer for Viet Nam are chicken hawks. Politicians who did are war criminals.
You're still harping on the Viet Nam war?
Heh.
See you at the ballot box, loser.
Al: But if any Democrat objects to the use of "Barack Hussein Obama", that's utterly hypocritical given the extensive use by Democrats of "George Felix Allen, Jr." in 2005.
That's a totally silly comparison. What does the name "Hussein" bring to mind? Obviously, that fellow who used to be Iraq's dictator.
What does the name "Felix" bring to mind, besides of course the coolest cartoon cat ever? Does "Felix" stand for anything the least bit discreditable? Be polite and answer that question "no," for my All-American son is named Felix.
Someone's probably done it already, but one could write a decent piece on the use of names in political rhetoric. Remember "George Herbert Walker Bush"? And didn't the republicans make fun of "Hubert Horatio Humphrey"?
I am a Nam vet. And I know and can appreciate an old combat veteran when I see one. McKingford, in his posts, has shown us that he is not only a brave warrior from the jungles of Vietnam, but a judge of who is, and who is not, a war criminal. He's been there. He knows it all. Tell us some war stories...huh...please? Tell us how you know that every round you fired only went toward the bad guys. My boy, (or girl) you're full of faux rightousness today.
"The conditions are favorable for us to win, but nominating Obama is a pointless risk."
Yeah, let's scrap the whole field and nominate someone who can draw the coveted Ignorant White Evangelical Jerk vote. Dude, here's a thought: How about we judge our candidates on their damned merits instead of on what kind of hay we assume the opposition will make out of their middle names?
If you're the JasonC I think you are, I hope Maru kicks your ass for that.
So Obama's the mullahs' Manchurian candidate? C'mon people...next you'll have me believing that George Allen is Jewish, that ol' Strom has black kids...
Seeing as the war against the Vietnamese was an abomination and a war crime in itself, volunteering for it is hardly a point in his favour.
Had you gone the "abomination and a war crime" route at the time you'd have found yourself in a very lonely place, in need of a lawyer. Nearly all politicians and all folk that looked like the politicians publically believed that sending young men like Lt Kerry to war in Vietnam was the moral, legal, and political right thing to do. In fact, declining their invitation to frolic in se asia was itself a crime, punishable by 5 years in federal prison and a $10,000 fine.
Your harsh judgments of both Lt Kerry and his nation from the vantage of 40 years add no insight other than a glaring lack of empathy. How's the "stew". Is it soup yet?
Cheviteau,
If we accept your logic, then only thieves and murderers can wear judicial robes.
But let's leave aside questions of the legality or wisdom of the Vietnam war, and focus instead solely on Kerrey.
Read this account:
It quite clearly shows both the illegality of Kerrey's actions as well as the immorality of a war that put him in the position it did. If you are a veteran you ought to be angry and ashamed of Kerrey for dishonouring your service.
My righteousness, at least in this instance, is real.
Interesting but totally invented "confrontation" between Bill Clinton and Kerrey in above post. Never happened. Kerrey's a triangulator of the first order, a DLC stalwart whose tight relationship with the Clintons goes way back. Since Kerrey was the Village's favorite for leading a third party, I wonder if we're now getting a hint that Hillary's laying the groundwork for an anti-Obama breakaway candidacy if they don't get to appoint the Dem candidate. Clinton/Kerrey '08?
"Madrassa is simply a word for school."
It is an Arabic word for school. Indonesia is not an Arabic speaking country and therefore does not call its public schools madrassas any more than we call our public schools madrassas in the United States.
Calling the public school Obama went to in Indonesia a madrassa is an underhanded attempt to imply that Obama attended an Islamic fundamentalist school. Kerry is a scoundrel.
However, it is actually a good thing that the Hillary campaign is engaging in this Karl Rove style dirty trick. This is only a sample of the garbage the Republicans are going to throw at Obama if he is the Democratic candidate. Therefore is is good that Obama and his campaign be tested now to see whether they can successfully counter this kind of dirty trickery. If he and his campaign cannot do so, he should not be the candidate.
Captain Video is right, in that this is just the type of thing that Republicans are going to sling at Obama if/when he's nominated, and if it can be shot down now, then fine.
And OF COURSE it doesn't mean Kerrey is any less of a jerk, or the Clintons, for trying to play on this thing, take advantage of it for themselves, and then try to pass it off as a compliment!
I just hope that it boomerangs back onto Clinton, because that would be two-for-one. I notice there is nothing at all about this on the Obama site, although I did find out that Ken Burns just endorsed Obama, and he did it partially because of Clinton's recent tactics:
http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/post_group/ObamaHQ/CVFF
"McKingford: try to keep up to speed. Obama is not Muslim. You are asking him to "own up" to something that is not true, and which is being used to tap into racist paranoia. You may think "Muslin(sic)" is "a wonderful fabric", but that is not the general sentiment among Americans these days, if you hadn't noticed."
ROFL.
"McKingford: try to keep up to speed. Obama is not Muslim. You are asking him to "own up" to something that is not true, and which is being used to tap into racist paranoia. You may think "Muslin(sic)" is "a wonderful fabric", but that is not the general sentiment among Americans these days, if you hadn't noticed."
ROFL. I love straight men.
bdb,
I can not imagine ANY circumstances that would give me empathy for a person who admittedly butchered innocent children. That you defend him is dispicable. If I met you in real life, I would spit in your face.
I can not imagine ANY circumstances that would give me empathy for a person who admittedly butchered innocent children.
LarryM: A B-19 bomber in World War II also "butchered innocent children." Would you have no empathy for him, either?
It's hardly Bob Kerrey's fault that his generation was called upon to fight a war that was horribly fucked up in every dimension. The young Kerrey was on a very dangerous mission, after nightfall, in an area where the lines between "innocent civilian" and "the enemy" were very blurred indeed. He and his comrades got into a firefight. All hell broke loose. Split second decisions had to be made. The sheer terror for all concerned undoubtedly must have been like nothing any of us can imagine. Unfortunately a large number of innocent civilians lost their lives. But I think it absolutely sucks when safe, comfortable, well-fed civilians pass judgment on people who risked their lives to defend their country in a war they had no part in bringing about. It would be a different story if there were credible evidence that the killing of civilians was premeditated. But there isn't any. If there were Kerrey would have been prosecuted. So shut the fuck up.
Neel,
That's not what happened. If it was, I might feel some sympathy. But if you take a gander at the REAL facts, I think you will (if you are a decent human being) have a very different take.
Look, if it was up to me, even now he would be tried a war criminal and, after conviction, hanged by the neck until dead. Of course, only after Kissenger and the other war criminals were tried, convicted, and hanged first.
Oh, and your little comment at the end, that he would have been proscuted if there was credible evidence that it was premeditated, is the funniest thing I've read all week. Are you really that fucking stupid, or just dishonest? If I were you, I'd cop to the dishonest defense.
LarryM,
Innocents die in droves in every war. That's what war does, it kills the innocent. Going to war is a very bad thing even if it is completely unavoidable. You should look again at Kerry's words —
I thought dying for your country was the worst thing that could happen to you, and I don't think it is. I think killing for your country can be a lot worse.
If you can't imagine living through circumstances that make you say that living is worse than dying then I guess you've been blessed. If you *can* imagine such circumstances and take that second-hand knowledge into your heart then you've received a valuable gift at a much lower price than Lt Kerry and everyone else that lived to tell the tale paid.
It's hardly Bob Kerrey's fault that his generation was called upon to fight a war that was horribly fucked up in every dimension.
This is true. But read the story about the night in question: it was not a split second decision in the middle of a firefight. There were two separate incidents - both "premeditated" - that resulted in the slaughter of women and children. The evidence of this comes - independently each from the other - from a Navy SEAL who implicates himself and a villager. And in the face of this, the best Kerrey can say is "hmm, I'm not sure...I don't think that's the way it happened, but I could be wrong".
The other thing is this: say what you want about the merits of the Vietnam war. But one thing American servicemen were *not* doing was defending their country. After all, it isn't as if the NLF slogan was "first Saigon - and then LA!"...
Listen you stupid ignorant war crime apologist, he didn't "mistakenly" or "accidently" kill innocents, he, with malice aforethought, ruthlessly and intentionally murdered innocents. Read the damn links. I can think of no circumstances where I, or anyone but a monster, would do that.
If he is as remorseful as that quote would indicate, he would either take his own life, or hand himself over the the authorities in Vietnam for trial & execution.
bdb,
I hope you don't mean to suggest that the Vietnam war was one of those completely unavoidable things. The reason the wisdom and morality of that war is so contentious is precisely because it was so senseless and utterly avoidable.
But I'm also not sure I understand your point about any guilt Bob Kerrey feels. Does it change the facts of what happened? Does this absolve him of blame? Does it make his actions any less criminal? Of course not. In my line of work I've had clients break down crying and admit to me the most heinous crimes, including murder. People who do awful things sometimes come to regret them - this is not a major revelation. Certainly their confession and any remorse they feel is better than nothing, but it does not change the basic facts of their awful deeds; it does not disentitle me from calling them a murderer; and it does not substitute for the punishment they have earned.
Jesus, folks - get over Vietnam, OK? WTF does that have to do with who we're selecting for the next President?
I'm a Nebraskan who has known Bob for decades. He's always had a different way of looking at things (used to drive me CRAZY when he was my Senator). I watched the interview and take my word for it - he was totally honest in his comments. He really does think it's cool that somebody with a Muslim father could run for President, etc. That's just the way Bob thinks - and the whole "dog whistle" spin is just that - spin.
I've worked on local and national campaigns, and I can tell you from sad experience, not every comment gets vetted or thought through in advance. Think about it - hundreds of campaign workers, co-chairs, volunteers, endorsers, etc. NO campaign can humanly keep track of what everybody might say no matter how hard they try.
This is all a silly tempest in a teapot.
I volunteered on Barack Obama's senate campaign, and may do work for his primary campaign and if that's your guy, keep him on a leash.
I don't think for a heartbeat it's "spin", I think he's a prick and one that isn't going to add to anything, if Bob wants a job and Hillary loses he's out in the cold and he better remember that.
Good lord, reading some of these comments made me think for a second I had landed in wingnut world, where ideological purity mattered more than a lifetime of service to the country. If Bob Kerry, Navy SEAL, holder of the Congressional Medal of Honor and Purple Heart, former United States (Democratic) Senator and University President is a POS, what the hell are you? Rush Limblob?
I watched the interview and take my word for it - he was totally honest in his comments.
Call me naive if you want, but my guess is that this is right.
I still don't like Kerrey.
I used to think that Bob Kerrey was a "different" sort of politician, one who didn't stoop to low smear tactics. Boy, was I naive! This was a very transparent, low attack smear and I'm sickened by it. And he managed to keep it going for two days. Naive types will be taken in by it, which is just what he and the Clintons were aiming for.
Comments closed January 01, 2008.
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Heads in the Sand
This is, of course, of a piece with Mark Penn's "we want to be clear that all this talk of cocaine use was not approved by the campaign" Hardball appearance.
It looks like we needed a woman candidate to revive the lost art of ratfucking.
Posted by Ben | December 18, 2007 9:18 AM