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The Long Haul

17 Dec 2007 09:31 am

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The most recent CBS/NYT poll asked people "From what you know about the U.S. involvement in Iraq, how much longer would you be willing to have large numbers of U.S. troops remain in Iraq — less than a year, one to two years, two to five years or longer than five years?" As you can see, virtually nobody in the United States wants to see American troops remain in Iraq for longer than five years. If you put squarely to people a political and strategic choice between a long-term military commitment to Iraq and trying to wrap our involvement up as quickly as is feasible, it wouldn't even be a close call.

At the same time, everyone who's paying close attention to what David Petraeus says, or what gets written on the Small Wars Journal Blog, or what the cool kids in the think tanks are saying, or what the Counterinsurgency Field Manual says, understands that the current strategy envisions us being in Iraq for much much longer than the 1-2 years that the American public seems willing to contemplate. In other words, completely apart from the question of whether or not the surge is "working," the architects of the surge understand themselves to be engaged in an undertaking -- setting the stage for over a decade of intensive, Northern Ireland-style policing and reconstruction of Iraqi society -- that public opinion overwhelmingly and correctly believes to be an unacceptable allocation of national priorities.

And yet, this fact is being kept pretty well obscured from the American public. Part of the fault there lies with the press. But a big part of the fault lies with the opposition party which is simply declining to present the public with a clear strategic alternative. The nit-picking over whether the fact that conditions in December 2007 are more like those of December 2006 (unbearably shitty!) or more like those of December 2004 (merely awful!) pales in comparison to the fundamental choice of whether our troops should come home within the next year or two, as the American people want, or whether they should stay in Iraq for an indefinite period of time definitely lasting over ten years, as the current strategy indicates.

It's not a difficult point to make, rhetorically or conceptually, but it would require the opposition party to actually put the "let's not stay forever" alternative clearly on the table and stop mucking around with half-measures, "residual forces," "phased transitions" and all the rest. You rarely get 75 percent of the public agreeing on anything, but it's right there -- over 75 percent of the public rejects the idea of a military operation in Iraq lasting more than five years. Meanwhile, the people leading the current operation are talking about it lasting "at least nine or ten years".

Petraeus is to be commended for his honest and sober-minded assessment of the challenges on that score and it's genuinely not his job to say whether or not it's a good idea to make that kind of commitment to Iraq. But it's not a good idea, and the people whose job it is to make that decision -- the politicians, in short -- ought to say so and move to cut this thing off.

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Comments (15)

The follow-up questions should be something like, "What would you have answered last year?" and, "Will you change your answer after another 12 months of occupation?" If you asked voters and representatives at the start of the war, not many would have said we should be there 5 years, but here we are. No one will sign up for 5-10 years of occupying another country, but people will happily keep giving "another 6 months," as amply documented by Atrios and others.

Poll the public as to how much longer they want tens of thousands of troops and billions in material tied up in South Korea or Germany or any number of other nations. We've been hunkered down all across the globe for 50+ years and the electorate raises nary a quibble with it. The public will get used to troops in Iraq just as they have elsewhere. Those advocating a smaller (or no) presence may succeed in causing some initial discomfort and force a few hearings on the matter. Long term what reason is there for it not to eventually resemble the same indifference we have with other occupations? I don't know anyone lying awake at night fretting over North Korea yet we have troops guarding the South. Who thinks Russia is going to overrun West Germany and march onward to Britain? 50,000 troops and a few permanent bases in Iraq won't cost any politician dearly. War is hell and we've all sat in the fire so long "It ain't nuthin but a thing".

over 75 percent of the public rejects the idea of a military operation in Iraq lasting more than five years...

One small point: from this poll, remembering to add in the "should leave now" voluntary responses to the "less than one year" responses, more than 50% of Americans think we should stay less than one year, and 75% of Americans think we should stay less than two years. Let's not give them even two if we can avoid it, much less five or more...

It looks like 'Less than a year' plus 'Should leave now' represents a majority and less than two years represents 75%. But what do we know? We're just department store managers and orthodontists.

The Northern Ireland comparisons are rather funny. After all, the Troubles ended not with a military victory or a new "strategy" or "tactic", but through diplomacy. It was only through forcing the Ulster Unionists to share power with Sinn Fein and the IRA did the Troubles end. So the lesson we draw from this is: force a power sharing deal between rival ethnic groups. In this case Sunni and Shia. But the lesson people seem to be reporting is that we need walls and security checkpoints N. Ireland style.

Excellent post, Matt! I hope people listen to you, I think you're right on here.

The thing that bothered me most about Bush's war is he was never willing to just say "we'll be there for a decade, and I think we need to because of X, Y, Z." Instead he obscured that fact and talked vaguely about "staying the course."

Of course, Bush might say "I don't know how long it's going to take, so I can't speak precisely" but that is a pathetic dodge, obviously you can give us your best guess or range.

Yet another reason why in my utopia everyone would know some statistics. In my dreamland, we would ask Bush to sketch his PDF of the likely time spent in Iraq; then 2-3 years later we could assess whether we were at a ridiculously small part of his prediction curve. The null hypothesis could be "Bush is not full of shit on this issue."

How long should we have stayed in the south after the Civil War? Was leaving in 1877 a good idea for blacks?

How about Germany, and Japan, or Korea?

Having entered Iraq, we have a responsibility to leave it in good order. Deciding to bail and leave the Iraqis in the same place we left the South Vietnamese would be a very, very irresponsible choice.

However, I take it as a good sign that people like Matt are now reduced to arguing based on polls, since it's no longer possible to avoid noticing the progress there

James Robertson,

You seem to be making an argument that Iraq is analagous with The South after the Civil War, South Korea post Korean War, and Japan and Germany post World War 2. Do you have any evidence to suggest that this is the case? Because the evidence would suggest that this is more along the lines of Northern Ireland. Are you an American James? Because it is rather humorous that you cannot produce a historical example that does not involve the US.

Case in point: Germany, Japan, and Korea were all homogenous cultures, whereas Northern Ireland had 2 competing ethnic groups. That is why it is a more appropriate analogy. Of course comparing Iraq to the Civil War is also humorous, because that would imply that Iraq is an American colony ready for total annexation. Who said American isn't an empire?

"But it's not a good idea, and the people whose job it is to make that decision -- the politicians, in short -- ought to say so and move to cut this thing off."

Why, because you say so? If you think it's a good idea to maintain a long-term commitment in Afghanistan (I assume you do), how can it possibly be in our interests to abandon Iraq, which is more important strategically? Try to take the political posturing out of the question: is it in U.S. interests to continue the effort to stabilize Iraq, or would we benefit more from leaving in short order, whatever the consequences? The question answers itself.

What has really driven the issue politically is the perceived cost of the effort in Iraq, particularly in lives. If casualty numbers continue to decline, and we are able to eventually reduce the number of troops in Iraq to a more sustainable level (~50,000), the majority of Americans will tolerate an indefinite presence there, as they have tolerated such commitments in South Korea, Bosnia, etc.

The smart thing for Democrats to do politically here would be to get in front of the curve for once on Iraq. Take credit for pressuring Bush to change strategies and personnel and adopt the surge (hope everyone forgets Dems' actual opposition and predictions of failure) and then argue that a Dem President would be better able to improve the situation from here. The Matt Yglesias approach of calling for withdrawal regardless of our national interests in Iraq and significant military progress is a losing proposition. Is it any surprise that the "we should leave now" bar on the graph is the shortest by far? How big was that bar last year this time?

Long term what reason is there for it not to eventually resemble the same indifference we have with other occupations?

Good question. I think the answer depends on the political conditions in Iraq. If the Iraqi population is hostile and insurgents continue to target our bases and soldiers, then Congress or the voters will be uneasy (See also "Saudi Arabia, recent withdrawal of troops from").

If the experience is more like South Korea or Germany, then yes, I imagine the voting public will shrug. This is also assuming that we can get troop levels down to sustainable levels, i.e., no extending commitments, get the National Guard troops back home, etc.

Fred,

You state "how can it possibly be in our interests to abandon Iraq, which is more important strategically?". Why would you say Iraq is more important strategically than Afghanistan? Is it because Iraq has oil?

To freddiemac, yes - I'm an American. And I'm not addressing the merits of getting into the war, because that's irrelevant - we already did that. Having done it, we should not decide that it's too much trouble and just bail.

"Try to take the political posturing out of the question: Is it in U.S. interests to continue the effort to stabilize Iraq, [whatever the consequences,] or would we benefit more from leaving in short order, whatever the consequences? The question answers itself."

I took the liberty balancing your question by placing the phrase "whatever the consequences" after both alternatives, and no, the question does not "answer itself." There are huge opportunity costs to continuing to devote large quantities of resources and attention to Iraq. In particular, our continuing focus on Iraq has allowed the situation in Afghanistan to deteriorate to the point that we may be facing defeat there. I, for one, am not willing to continue the effort to stablize Iraq regardless of the consequences.

I think the hooker is "large numbers". Arguably DOD Secretary Gates, the Joint Chiefs, George W, and even Cheney don't want "large numbers".

The poll would have been better had it used an arbitrary cut off of say 100,000 (which is about where I ssupect we will be in a year), or a phrase such as "sufficient troops to quell violence"..

There is simply no comparison between the strategic importance of Iraq and Afghanistan. The former is the keystone state in the region producing most of the oil and most of the terrorism. Moreover, the abuse of sovereignty that the war was originally launched to correct in 1991 featured the hijacking of a fabulously resource-rich state for the purpose of achieving regional domination, including by developing and USING wmd's, with genocide thrown in for good measure.

In contrast, Afghanistan is a hopelessly backward state competing with Bangladesh and Congo for the bottom on every list of development. We went there for one reason, and one reason only--to remove the nation-state platform from Al Qaeda. This was achieved with dispatch. Supporting the future development of a decent society in Afghanistan is well within the means, and in fact the pledges, or our allies. People who think they could have been such a help in Iraq should be the ones insisting now that they keep their words.

Anyone who's serious about helping Afghanistan should be advocating the decriminalization of drugs. Our current idiotic "war on drugs" has caused civil wars around the world in the name of shifting blame for drug abuse from consumers in rich countries to dirt-poor Third World farmers, and provides the principal support for enemies of friends like Hamid Karzai.


Comments closed December 31, 2007.

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