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A River in Egypt

28 Jan 2008 01:07 pm

A while back I remarked that "I'm not sure there's very much the US government can or should do, in practice, to push Egypt into becoming a democracy." In response to that, Jonathan Kulick noted the existence of a CRS report, "Democracy Promotion: Cornerstone of US Policy?", on the subject. My read of the report, which, as is frequently the case with CRS reports, is a very useful summary is that we should be skeptical. As the report makes clear, the US does have a good deal of success with democracy promotion programs. But the bulk of the success is concentrated in efforts to assist countries that genuinely want to make a democratic transition. There's also some record of success in programs designed to bolster post-conflict situations. What there isn't is much of a track record of success for initiatives designed to coerce an autocratic regime into becoming democratic.

Shadi Hamid also offered an impassioned defense of the view that there's stuff we can do:

Egypt is one of our closest allies in the region. They depend on us for economic and military support. This means we have leverage, and we shouldn't be afraid to use that leverage to push for change. For starters, this can mean making the billions we give to Egypt conditional on political reform (for more on this, see here). For more forward-thinking policymakers, we can also explore ways to show the Egyptian regime we're serious (this could include starting a dialogue with the strongest opposition group in the country - the Muslim Brotherhood. For more on that, see here). Now there is a legitimate debate about how much we can do ultimately do to change Egypt. But the basic point remains - we can at least do something.

On the aid, here's the thing. Presumably Mubarak's government would rather have our aid money than not have our aid money. But Mubarak's government would really prefer to hold on to power than to lose power. Thus aid-related threats aren't going to persuade them to adopt meaningful political reforms unless our bureaucrats manage to succeed in tricking Mubarak's into implementing reforms whose implications are more meaningful than the Egyptians realize. But given that the government of Egypt is stacked from top to bottom with people who spend just about all day every day thinking about how to maintain their regime and who are really good at achieving this goal, I think it's much more likely that we'd be tricked. Then next thing you know you've got the President of the United States and the Secretary of State proudly laying on hands and pronouncing a great victory for democracy, the reform remains ephermal, and ordinary Egyptians grow ever-more-skeptical of US activities.

And this, to me, is the main thing to keep in mind for anyone's pet schemes for US-driven political change in Egypt, Pakistan, wherever. The United States is a much more powerful country than are those other countries. But that power is a very blunt instrument. We should try to employ it in pursuit of goals for which bluntness is not a problem. Micro-managing political outcomes and manipulating politicians is a delicate task. And savvy third-world leaders from Hosni Mubarak to Benazir Bhutto to the Gulf Sheikhs making multi-million dollar contributions to the Clinton and Bush presidential libraries are much better-positioned to manipulate our guys than we are to manipulate theirs. Rather than try to leverage our relationship into political change in those countries, my suggestion would be to simply say that insofar as these are repressive governments there's a certain degree of closeness we're going to put some distance between our country and theirs. In the specific case of Egypt, however, this is complicated by the fact that our aid relationship with Cairo is tied to our relationship with Israel. So you've got a thorny problem intimately connected to another thorny problem and I'd say I'm pessimistic that much will get done.

That said, yes, we should be engaging with Egyptian opposition groups including the Muslim Brotherhood and making it clear that we're prepared to have a relationship with whatever kind of government might emerge, but that we'd envision a closer relationship with a democratic government.

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Comments (23)

We "promote democracy" in the same way Athens did -- the Melian Dialogue. Consequently, the aggression of our elites will, in time, provoke the other world powers into ensuring that we suffer the same fate as Athens.

They will succeed because Stupidity is expensive and Bush is approaching approaching bankruptcy.

See "Waving Goodbye to Hegemony" at
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/27/magazine/27world-t.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

"nd savvy third-world leaders from Hosni Mubarak to Benazir Bhutto to the Gulf Sheikhs making multi-million dollar contributions to the Clinton and Bush presidential libraries are much better-positioned to manipulate our guys than we are to manipulate theirs."

Yeah, right. Our puppets manipulate us. Serious post!

Let me offer a Very Unserious approach to democracy promotion instead: stop arming and supporting dictators!

This is good advice from George Washington, two paragraphs below his famous no "permanent alliances" statement in his 1796 Farewell Address:

Harmony, liberal intercourse with all nations are recommended by policy, humanity, and interest. But even our commercial policy should hold an equal and impartial hand, neither seeking nor granting exclusive favors or preferences; consulting the natural course of things; diffusing and diversifying by gentle means the streams of commerce but forcing nothing; establishing with powers so disposed, in order to give trade a stable course, to define the rights of our merchants, and to enable the government to support them, conventional rules of intercourse, the best that present circumstances and mutual opinion will permit, but temporary and liable to be from time to time abandoned or varied, as experience and circumstances shall dictate; constantly keeping in view that it is folly in one nation to look for disinterested favors from another; that it must pay with a portion of its independence for whatever it may accept under that character; that, by such acceptance, it may place itself in the condition of having given equivalents for nominal favors and yet of being reproached with ingratitude for not giving more. There can be no greater error than to expect, or calculate, upon real favors from nation to nation. It is an illusion which experience must cure, which a just pride ought to discard.

The United States would benefit from being a neutral partner to instead of picking and choosing our "friends".

My read of the report, which, as is frequently the case with CRS reports, is a very useful summary is that we should be skeptical."

WTF were you trying to express there, Matty?

Props on describing your read of the report as being "a very useful summary."

Perhaps you meant to say something like:

My read of the report --- which, as is frequently the case with CRS reports, is a very useful summary --- is that we should be skeptical.

You should brush up on your grammar & sentence construction. Maybe re-read Strunk & White. Or something, anything.

Another example of the US government's support for democracy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:William_cohen_with_suharto.jpg

There are two things the US gvt can do

1) Bully pulpit. Don't call a gvt liberalizing and democratic if it isn't. Denounce massacres, torture, etc.

2) Civil society. Libraries, translation bureaus, travelling theatre groups. Help normal people be better citizens

I'd be wary of talking to opposition groups much.

Re Normalizer's comment "Denounce massacres, torture, etc."
-----------
How about the idea that, if a mass murderer is killing MILLIONS, that he not be working off a list supplied by the CIA? Especially when the CIA acknowledges that genocide was ""one of the worst mass murders of the twentieth century,"?

http://www.namebase.org/scott.html

Even Adolph claimed to be acting under military necessity -- we don't have that excuse.

And they would never believe us because of Hamas.

While it seems cool to believe that Mubarak's governments ONLY goal is to remain in power, Egypt is a pretty nationalistic country and many Egyptians want their country and countrymen to live better. IF Mubarak's only goal was to stay in power, Egypt would look more like Syria. That's why Egypt is a promising case for democracy-promotion unlike the other Arab regimes, why past democracy-promotion efforts met huge success (2005-2006 a lot of stuff happened there) and why it's so puzzling that Bush and Co. simply abandoned the country to put their efforts into Lebanon, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, etc. states without nationalism and massive problems.

Because, skyler, the Bushies realized what Kennedy and Johnson realized about Vietnam:

The nationalists these people wanted to elect (Vietminh/cong, Muslim Brotherhood) were not the nationalists we wanted to come to power.

So: why DO we give a lot of aid to Egypt? What are we buying with that money?

Thirty years ago, the aid was basically an inducement to keep them from backing out of their peace treaty with Israel. At the time, there had been four Israeli-Arab wars in the previous thirty years, with Egypt as an essential participant in all of them. Removing Egypt from the set of potential military threats to Israel meant that nobody was going to launch a territorial war on Israel.

And so it has been: it's now been 34 years since the Yom Kippur War. Even if we gave Egypt no aid, it's gotten used to the status quo with Israel, and is not going to go to war against Israel. So if we're still paying for that, we're pretty dumb.

But I can't figure out what we are paying for, other than that.

low-tech, we're still paying bribes for that very thing - peace with Israel. Only these days, that consists more of patrolling the Gaza border.

We're also paying them not to develop nuclear weapons, for the same reason.

Egypt was and remains the essential participant in destroying Israel. And, if they allowed the Gaza border to be porous, Israel would invade. They'd have to take Suez too, and we'd see Lebanon times 40.

Can you imagine what would happen if Egypt founded a Hizbollah-like group? With 80 million people to draw on, it would be *the* gorilla of hate.

Re Greg's comment "low-tech, we're still paying bribes for that very thing - peace with Israel"
----------
So why isn't ISRAEL paying the $3 Billion/year in bribes to the Egyptians?

And why are we also paying Israel $3 Billion/year?
To make peace with Egypt?

Looks like a pretty good racket to me. For the Egyptians and Israelis, not for US citizens.

I hate to make the obvious point, but do we really want a Muslim Brotherhood government in Egypt?

Something tells me that such a government would not be grateful to the US, either.

I think democracy promotion in the ME and elsewhere will be a lot trickier than just pushing for elections, with Hamas being Exhibit One.

Don, I didn't say I liked paying the bribe, I said we are paying it for that reason.

Furthermore, stonetools, you just proved why democracy promotion is such a hollow phrase.

We want these guys to do whatever we tell them. But if we were in their position, would you seriously tell me we would just quietly acquiesce to the will of the superpower? Hell no, we'd do our best to undermine it.

That is why I feel so pissed off at our leaders' reluctance to acknowledge this essential fact. To paraphrase Napoleon's best advice, if you're going to promote democracy, *promote democracy*. Don't promote democracy except for Hizbollah, or the Vietminh, or the Contras.

If you are not willing to do this, then drop the pretense, because no matter what Karen Hughes says, our actions are the metric these people ought to use.

The problem, and the reason we don't drop the pretense, is that Anglo-Americans are almost wholly incapable of imagining an imperialism devoid of some kind of messianic vision. So we keep the rhetoric - and in some cases believe in it - and participate in the following cycle:

a) We tell a bunch of people we're bringing freedom, democracy, and equality

b) We engage in some kind of military action against them or allow our companies to suck them dry while leaving them impoverished

c) They attack us, usually in a terrorist way

d) We engage in righteous fury, usually about how "cowardly" and "dastardly" the attack was. We also wring our hands about why they hate us, never stopping to remember that for the vast majority of human existence, hate is the best motivator for community action

e) We decide that what they want is freedom, democracy, and equality. We've rinsed, so now repeat.

Now, as a nationalist, I think that the most effective way to deal with enemies is:

Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius.

This is not the most moral way, or the most virtuous way, but it works. As the War Nerd says, Bribe them, nuke them, or leave them the fuck alone.

This is the most ignorant posting and discussion I have ever read in my life. Shameful.

"IF Mubarak's only goal was to stay in power, Egypt would look more like Syria."

Apples and oranges. The Syrian Ba'athists tend to be Alawites who are hated by the vast majority of the people both for their party and for their combination of religious identity, wealth and power (what Amy Chua would call a market-dominant minority). They fear genocide if they fall from power. Egyptian leaders, meanwhile, may be killed if there is a revolution, so they do worry about holding onto power, but may would likely at worst end up just like Chun Doo Hwan and Roh Tae Woo in Korea if democracy emerges: charged with some crimes and then pardoned to maintain peace between the major political factions, so it really is about maintaining power and avoiding revolution and anarchy.

Engaging the Muslim Brotherhood would be a good idea if for no other reason in that it would de-legitimize them and thus force Egyptians to look elsewhere for an opposition group.

Hold on a second, Andrew. Mubarak is a pretty ruthless military dictator that we support to prevent the Muslim Brotherhood from coming to power.

I, frankly, don't see why we ought to care if the MB is elected, because a) Israel is a powerful country more than capable of defending itself from a rusting Egypt and b) the MB would have to try really, really hard to be more corrupt than the current machinery. But, nonetheless, our government does not want the Muslim Brotherhood elected.

As a result, our government told Mubarak first to allow democratic elections, and then, when the inevitable occurred and the MB was clearly the most popular choice, we told him not to worry about being undemocratic, and when he dies, we'll probably allow his son to succeed him as virtual Pharoh.

How, pray tell, is any of this ignorant or shameful? What the hell do you think is going on in Egypt?

Reality Man,

I would love for that to happen, but right now, it doesn't have a snowball's chance in Tel Aviv in August if we don't get them to officially renounce their ideological offshoot in Palestine at the beginning.

But funny you ought to bring up viable alternatives to religious parties. There was one, for a long time, in that part of the world, but Socialists were, of course, verboten for our government to associate with.

"I would love for that to happen, but right now, it doesn't have a snowball's chance in Tel Aviv in August if we don't get them to officially renounce their ideological offshoot in Palestine at the beginning.

But funny you ought to bring up viable alternatives to religious parties. There was one, for a long time, in that part of the world, but Socialists were, of course, verboten for our government to associate with.

Posted by Greg | January 28, 2008 8:57 PM"

Yeah, unfortunately, there has long been a big gap between what we ought to do / would be smart to do in the Middle East and what we actually do have long not been related. It is kind of ironic how during the Cedar Revolution in Lebanon, when Jamblaat would keep on praising Bush, the American media would call him the leader of "a Druze party," "a pro-American party," "a pro-democracy party," etc. They were afraid to actually say the party's name: the Socialist Party. There have been hints that moderate democratic socialists and social democrats are are recognized by some in the State Department, the CIA, etc. as viable potential alternative partners in the region (especially considering how left-leaning student leaders in countries like Iran are much more reform-minded and less revolutionary, destroy the old society minded than previous generations of leftists), but this hasn't been seen by the wider establishment. They spout how much they want democracy, then get annoyed when what pops up doesn't look exactly like the Democratic and Republican Parties.

Reality Man, that's interesting. You know, of course, that Arab nationalism - connected to various left wing ideologies - was the big thing back in the 50's and 60's. Then it collapsed - I'm not up enough on the history to know why - and was replaced by Islamic fundamentalism as a driving ideology.

It would be interesting if today the Islamic fundamentalism ideology was going to be challenged by a resurgent Arab left wing nationalism.

Do you see any real indications of that or is it still either a leftover of the old days or too nascent to be relevant at the moment?

Please stay out of other peoples stuff u just mess things up. Ya like brining democracy to Iraq was a great job. What makes u so arrogant and ignorant to presume u have the right or that u can bring democracy to Egypt or that Egypt will accept ur perverted form of democracy. And if the kind of democracy u want in Egypt is like ur ugly nationalistic ethnocentric special interest lobby based democracy were elections are bought and stolen on wall street, FOX and in Israel then thank u Ill take my dictatorship any day. At least we don’t go all around the world killing millions in the name of democracy calming to be the home of the brave and the best in the world. Have u no shame, Take ur democracy and put it far far up ur arrogant side


Comments closed February 11, 2008.

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