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A Very Serious Blog Post

15 Jan 2008 11:17 am

liberalfascism.jpg

It seems that nothing gets conservatives off nearly so much as writing obviously unserious books with patently offensive titles, designed in every way to not be taken seriously, and then get huffy when people make fun of them without having given their precious works the deep consideration they deserve. So while I've been poking and jibing at Jonah Goldberg, I've also been making my way through his book. It gets pretty tedious in parts, contrary to the faint praise with which a lot of people have been damning it it's not witty or clever, so I won't deny having skimmed over parts where I already got the point. But I've read it, and here's what I think.

One major problem with the book is that Goldberg has no ability whatsoever to stick to a coherent line of argument. You might call this book "disparate essays about fascism and American liberalism designed to annoy liberals." He doesn't seem to care about what his various claims amount to or even whether or not they're inconsistent. Thus, sometimes liberals are too mean to the non-Hitler fascists of the world. Other times, the problem is that people on the left in the 1920s were, at the time, unduly soft on fascism. But other times the problem is that people on the left now have views on some subjects (e.g., the importance of public health) that are similar to views fascists had back in the day.

Most egregiously of all, there's an effort to read today's highly polarized party/ideological nexus back onto a very different context. In the real world, we don't expect people who vote for the contemporary Republican Party to William McKinley's views on the gold standard. Similarly, when Karl Rove praises McKinley as the founder of the modern business-oriented Republican coalition, we don't take this as proving that Rove "secretly" shares McKinley's views on monetary policy. Woodrow Wilson, in particular, was a very complicated figure. In his presidency, we see the roots of a lot of modern progressive ideas. We also see a lot of authoritarianism, out-of-control executive power, and dogmatic adherence to white supremacy. You can't really "place" him on the modern ideological spectrum. Unless, of course, you're Jonah Goldberg in which you can simultaneously identify him as an American-style fascist but also very much a contemporary American liberal, and therefore liberalism equals fascism through the simple expedient of doing history ahistorically.

Alternatively, a sensible approach might say that "though today's liberals praise Wilson for his progressive views on labor regulations and efforts to use American power to create an institutionalized liberal world order, his actual administration pursued many highly illiberal policies, especially on race and civil liberties." Paul Starr in Freedom's Power has an enlightening treatment of these issues, talking about the founding of the ACLU in response to the depredations of MItchell Palmer and seeing the contemporary liberal synthesis as forged by taking some of Wilson's ideas and dropping other, more pernicious ones.

Beyond specific errors, lapses in logic, etc. the biggest problem with Goldberg's book is actually that Goldberg himself has the wrong ideology. A certain strand of libertarian, perhaps Justin Raimondo from AntiWar.com, could have credibly written a book with the form of argument "today's liberals rightly identify fascistic strands in contemporary conservatism, but ignore the fascist mote in their own eye" and deliver a diatribe against statism in general and seek to tar everyone, left and right, with lax deployment of the brush of fascism. But that's not Jonah Goldberg. Goldberg is, instead, a loyal foot soldier in the Republican Noise Machine. He's a steadfast supporter of the political party representing the dominant ethnocultural group in the United States, the party that supports torture and unlimited surveillance, the party that supports a larger and more aggressively employed military, the party that supports a more punitive criminal justice system at home, the party whose backers are prone to fretting about low birthrates, the need to police gender roles more rigidly, etc.

I'm not going to say that means contemporary conservatives are fascists. I agree with Goldberg that that's a superficial line of argument that completely ignores the sociocultural roots of American conservatism and European fascism. But nobody with allegiances like that can seriously turn around, point at the other ideological camp, at start yelling "fascism" at the slightest whiff of collectivism.

But of course that just gets us back to the fact that there's no real coherent argument to be extracted here at all. Nor does there seem to have been any real intention of producing one. Rather, Adam "In Defense of Nepotism" Bellow's basic idea was, basically, let's slap a bunch of shit together that'll piss off liberals, generate buzz, and then maybe conservatives will buy the book. It's cynicism, pure and true, but it makes a reasonable amount of sense. The funny thing about it is that as best one could tell, Goldberg is actually slow-witted enough that he doesn't understand what's happening and is apparently genuinely upset that liberals aren't seriously debating his ideas the way one goes back-and-forth against an antagonist whose thinking you respect despite your differing perspectives. That, of course, only makes it funnier to make fun of him and that, in turn, serves the higher call of the marketing pitch.

UPDATE: Goldberg proclaims himself disappointed with the unseriousness of my efforts. Also notes accurately that I've been a bit "pissy" toward him ever since he called me an anti-semite in print.

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Comments (214)

Good and thoughtful review, but Jonah Lucianne does not deserve your time or attention.

Another snarky post dripping with your trade mark Cambridge wit would have sufficed.

You're still taking his arguments too seriously. My super-awesome review puts this sucker right in its place :-)

Now that that's settled, can we get back to laughing at Jonah Goldberg?

The best take on Jonah was to describe him as "a dog who thinks he's people." He clearly thinks he's part of some grand philosophical/ideological process of inquiry and debate, not realizing he's just part of a talking-points-generation noise machine.

That aside, your description of the book doesn't surprise me. Someone with a background in philosophy or law would have approached the effort of writing the book by constructing a very structured logical argument. Jonah's background at the National Review leads him to approach the project by writing a group of scattershot polemical essays.

The question in my mind is why Jonah doesn't embrace his role as a comic polemecist? He could make himself out to be a GenX male Florence King. Why is he trying to pretend to be sort of a modern day gentleman scholar or member of the Algonquin Roundtable? It's clearly not his forte or, for that matter, anything he's spent his life trying to be in the first place.

i, of course, have no intention of reading the book (a varied intellectual diet being one thing, and junk food being another), but i have no doubt that matthew is quite right, since it's been perfectly clear for years that goldberg is incapable of systematic coherent thought and is kind of slow-witted. why should his "book" be any different?

I agree with all of this. Whether or not it makes sense to attack the statist impulses of modern progressives, Goldberg's book is not the way to do it.

I'm not going to say that means contemporary conservatives are fascists. I agree with Goldberg that that's a superficial line of argument

...because, while they agree with fascists about all policy mattersw:

they are a lot further away from realizing their plans than Mussolini was?

they are Americans, and therefore nice?

despite being accomodating to the rise of Hitler, their parents and grandparents eventually fought fascists in WWII?

to say so would support the terrorists?

Just curious? Do the people that review Goldberg's book pay for it, or do they receive a press-copy free-of-charge?


Another snarky post dripping with your trade mark Cambridge wit would have sufficed.

You can only be snarky most of the time. Sometimes you have to roll up your sleeves and really deliver on the devastating critique suggested by all that snarkiness. Just to show everyone that you mean business.

Agreed as to the futility of the search for nefarious historical roots.

Elizabeth Cady Stanton said some pretty awful things in 1870, but it's nonsensical to argue that feminism is rooted in white supremacy. It's rather an indication that society has progressed, and ideas that once were mainstream are now on the fringe.

Like Glenn's column this morning, this points out the terrible consequences to a movement that creates its own parallel reality. In conservative-world, Iraq is a success, evolution is a controversial theory, and liberals are socialists/communists/fascists who want the government to control your every move.

These are axiomatic within the conservative caricature of reality. And the echo chamber is big enough that you can live your whole life there, and disregard all rival facts, arguments, and sources as politically incorrect and not worth engaging. (It's worse, btw, when the people running the country do this than when the people running the English department do it).

Goldberg will not suffer any negative consequences, in right-wing world, for his foolishness. Nor will Morrissey. It's a self-contained world.

Thanks for doing the work of going through the book.

Jonah Goldberg's speaking in DC at the Borders on 18 and L at 6:30 this evening. If anyone wants to meet me there, I'll be the guy in the brown shirt and jack boots.

how does goldberg deal with the fact that yesterday's uberfascists (the nazi's) spent most of their time rounding up, imprisoning, gassing, and burning people with pretty much the same political orientation as modern "liberals", i.e. teachers, professors, trade unionists, socialists, communists, homosexuals and pacifists? i mean, that seems like it would present a real problem for his thesis, no?

1. Free style advice: If one's going to assert, "nothing gets conservatives off nearly so much as...," then one needs to cite some other examples of conservatives getting off on it in addition the single instance (Jonah Goldberg, in this case) one's writing about. Or come up with a different opening.

2. If "Liberal Fascism" is such a dismissable piece of crap as you seem to think, Matt (and I suspect that were I to read the book I'd be in total agreement with you on its merits), why have you dignified it with so much attention?

The hill that Goldberg can't climb, it seems to me, is his repeated assertion that fascism is "right-wing communism" (as he has said in the Salon interview and elsewhere.) The problem is that this is refuted by none other than the fascists themselves, again and again and again. What has aggravated me about the dialogue about this book, as much as one exists, is that people speak as though the motives and ideologies of the fascists are unknowable, that we can only hazard a guess at their true beliefs. That's nonsense. The fascist movement is less than a hundred years old. There is ample primary source material available to anyone who bothers to do a little research. And again and again and again, you find that fascist intellectuals and leaders defined their ideology in opposition to communism and socialism. Mussolini, Marinetti, Franco, Soffici, Panzini, Salazar... over and over again. How can you bridge that divide? You can't. Scholars and historians don't place fascism and socialism in opposition to each other because they have a political ax to grind. They do so because they have the words of the fascists themselves to guide them. And whatever other critique conservatives want to make about the criticisms Goldberg has received, that is the one inescapable fact. An argument that stems from the fraudulent claim that fascism and socialism are the same kind of animal simply can't be bent into coherence. There's no answer for that large of an error.

Those conservative book titles are there for a reason-- they make the books sell better, because the conservative readership wants red meat and a title like "Treason" or "Slander" (Ann Coulter is the master of this) gets their attention.

One thing I lost some respect for Ramesh Ponnuru over (and he is actually one of the more respectable conservatives) is that he wouldn't just admit that he came up with the title "Party of Death" to sell books.

So, we have a failed Jewish author using a cartoon of Hitler to sell books to feed his struggling family.

Jonah's Amerikkka sure has come a long way, baby!!!

...one needs to cite some other examples of conservatives getting off on it in addition the single instance...

To me, this brought to mind the Ann Coulter library, including Treason, Godless, and All Fags Will Burn In Hell, Plus Did I Mention that John Edwards is a Fag? I Mean, Look at His Hair.

On second thought, that last one might have been an article.

Jonah's trick, as he showed in the Salon interview, is to contend that if you give him an hour, he will look up sources that will contradict whatever facts and evidence you present to him to prove that he is full of shit.

You cannot seriously argue with such persons.

Can't we just agree that while the debate of whether fascism could be classified on the left is interesting but in the end completely pointless and purely academic and Goldberg only writes a whole book about it to piss liberals off, the fundamental mistake he is making is comparing social movements and political theories from wildly different times and cultures to draw comparisons that end in absurd results because u can't compare things that are not comparable.

To give an example I am familiar with, part of his argument seems to be that fascists would be liberals in the US because they are "statists".
Well, French conservatives have historically been very big on the power of the State to mould the economy and influence the society. Just as much so as French socialists with the difference being that French socialists wants to use the state to redistribute wealth when French conservatives want to use the state to "create" wealth. De Gaulle who is a conservative by French political standards and is the influence of a healthy number of current UMP officials created a "Ministry of the Plan". Yes, a "plan" like the USSR economic plans. Bottom line is, belief in a strong State plays differently on the political scale in different countries because of history and culture.
In a German/Italian context (and actually most people in Europe think that there were fundamental differences between Nazism and Fascism and that the two should not be mixed up), Statism is not a criteria to judge whether a movemement is on the right or the left. Other criteria come in that clearly push fascism on the right.

In any case, transferring this to an American context is absurd. The lack of knowledge of different contexts and cultures and the absurd transposition of American-infused prejudices about life and the political process is the same of kind of lazy punditry that brought us ... in Iraq (yes, I went there).

That's some flawless logic there James Gary. Matt's spending time dismissing this piece of dismissible crap, so therefore it's not dismissible. What's it like in your brain?

A certain strand of libertarian, perhaps Justin Raimondo from AntiWar.com, could have credibly written a book

Not likely.

First, it would have be a booklet, not a book.

Second, his tight connections and relationships with far-rightists/"paleocons" (Pat Buchanan, for example - what's up, Steve Sailer?) who have expressed admiration for actual fascists (including, yes, Hitler) makes him about as credible as Goldberg on the subject.

But the chapter on Israeli art students will be fascinating, so I hope he tries it.

Jonah took what might have been a reasonable premise about modern western and particularly American society, and went sideways with it, primarily based on research done on the back of cereal boxes.

Yeah, we know that only conservatives would use book titles like that. I mean, no liberal would ever write a book titled, say, Rush Limbaugh is a Big Fat Idiot. Or Lies (and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them). Or Stupid White Men. Or The Big Con: The True Story of How Washington Got Hoodwinked and Hijacked by CrackpotEconomics. Or The Assault on Reason. Would never happen!

John Scalzi wrote an interesting and hilarious entry (or rebuttal, depending on your views) on Goldberg's Salon interview and his comments regarding Mussolini. I believe that Andrew Sullivan linked to it last night; there is actually a intellectual and serious discussion in the comments regarding fascism et al

Yes, all right, so you've read it once. But before you can offer a criticism you really ought to read it again, and once more, and then again out loud. Otherwise you're just being unfair.

matt,

excellent post.
what gets me about people like goldberg, who would never be anywhere near their positions of status, absent a mother or father or uncle and blatant nepotism, is that they appear to be totally unaware of that fact. but then again, if they did have even a slight bit of that awareness, they might not able to function as they do function, as foot soldiers in their movement
my guess is that they spend so much time around other "nepotism babies" - the conservative movement is full of them, from the president on down - that no one ever talks about it, the same way that royalty and monarchs never question their path to power.
while goldberg might not be the worst example of nepotism - as someone has pointed out, the dunce in the white house is probable the worst - goldberg has to be the most obtuse. bush kind of gets it. his petulance and chip-on-the-shoulder all seem to flow, in some part, from his understanding that he is his father's son and that he has had to walk in his dad's footsteps, every step of his life.
goldberg really and truly does not get it. he appears to believe that he is a brilliant writer and thinker, moving and shaping the world around him with his eloquence, rising on the force of his own genius.
the fact that he is his mother's son and that he is where he is in life solely because of her influence, seems to not even occur to him.

You missed this part Al:

...and then get huffy when people make fun of them without having given their precious works the deep consideration they deserve

Neither Al Franken nor, in fairness, Ann Coulter whine about the lack of respect they get. Jonah Goldberg does, and he deserves contempt for that.

Yeah, we know that only conservatives would use book titles like that. I mean, no liberal would ever write a book titled, say, Rush Limbaugh is a Big Fat Idiot. Or Lies (and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them). Or Stupid White Men. Or The Big Con: The True Story of How Washington Got Hoodwinked and Hijacked by CrackpotEconomics. Or The Assault on Reason. Would never happen!

Al, that's fine, except we are not discussing liberal books here. We are discussing conservative books. And the point is that when you title your book "Liberal Fascism" or "Party of Death", you shouldn't wonder why people treat your book like it is another Ann Coulter-like screed.

That's some flawless logic there James Gary. Matt's spending time dismissing this piece of dismissible crap, so therefore it's not dismissible. What's it like in your brain?

Wet and squishy with at least a couple functional neurons, I'd imagine. I hope I never have to find out.

Let me clarify my point: "dismissible" implies that the thing in question is not worthy of attention. Writing at length about a book's dismissibility is, by definition, disingenuous.

Franken, obviously, stated up front that his title of "Rush Limbaugh..." was meant to make fun of Rush's name-calling shtick. Not to mention that the book is a comedy.

Franken knows he's a comedian. Jonah is, however, as mentioned about "a dog who thinks he's people."

Dr. Victor Davis Handjob: Thanks for the heads-up. I have read about half of his awful book and will try to ask some pointed questions tonight.

Maybe I'm just a wrong, wrong person, but I like the cover.

Graphically, it's efficient.

Al, that's fine, except we are not discussing liberal books here. We are discussing conservative books.

Al has a valid point. I've never read any of the books he listed, though, so I can't speak to their content. I personally have come to accept calculatedly-inflammatory book titles as an unavoidable part of modern life, and as I see it, the topic here is the content of Goldberg's book and not its title.

Jonah attempts to make an argument by redefining the term fascism to include liberals. But it really is going a bit far for him to claim that Mussolini, who coined the word and founded the Fascist Party, is not a fascist. Is he totally ignorant of history? Below is a quote from his speech to the Heritage Foundation.

"To sort of start the story, the reason why we see fascism as a thing of the right is because fascism was originally a form of right-wing socialism. Mussolini was born a socialist, he died a socialist, he never abandoned his love of socialism, he was one of the most important socialist intellectuals in Europe and was one of the most important socialist activists in Italy, and the only reason he got dubbed a fascist and therefore a right-winger is because he supported World War I."

Mussolini wasn't "dubbed" a fascist. Mussolini called himself a fascist and in fact invented the term.

"how does goldberg deal with the fact that yesterday's uberfascists (the nazi's) spent most of their time rounding up, imprisoning, gassing, and burning people with pretty much the same political orientation as modern "liberals", i.e. teachers, professors, trade unionists, socialists, communists, homosexuals and pacifists?"


Easy. He says that some senior Nazis were gay or otherwise sexually deviant (by his and their professed norms), so therefore Nazism wasn't really anti-gay. A bit like the modern Republican party isn't really anti-gay, someone with an ounce of self-awareness might think.

"The hill that Goldberg can't climb, it seems to me, is his repeated assertion that fascism is "right-wing communism" (as he has said in the Salon interview and elsewhere.) The problem is that this is refuted by none other than the fascists themselves, again and again and again."

No it isn't. It's that he changes his conception of fascism, or what was bad about fascism, as it suits him. Half the time he calls fascism right communism, and half the time he insists that fascism is a left wing political philosophy, at least in modern American terms.

"Originally being a fascist meant you were a right-wing socialist, and the problem is that we've incorporated these European understandings of things and then just dropped the socialist. In the American context fascists get called right-wingers even though there is almost no prominent fascist leader -- starting with Mussolini and Hitler -- who if you actually went about and looked at their economic programs, or to a certain extent their social program, where you wouldn't locate most if not all of those ideas on the ideological left in the American context. "

To the extent that there's any common thread to the book beyond idiocy and smearing liberals, it's that its an extended whine about how mean it is to put conservatives to be on the same side of the political spectrum as fascists. In order to make that switcheroo, he has to redefine militarism so that it has nothing to do with war, nationalism so that it has nothing to do with nation states and oppression so that it has nothing to do with actual oppression. Quite a piece of work.

This is the best serious discussion of Liberal Fascism that I've seen, especially the last couple paragraphs.

As calling all toasters notes, tho, it leaves open the question of how we should think about fascism in relation to present-day politics. Is it

* A purely historical phenomenon that was the product of institutions and conflicts that just don't exist today? In this case, the only application to a modern context in a loose metaphorical way. (So it's a term like "The Inquisition".)

* One way modern societies can fail catastrophically in response to acute social conflict and a crisis of legitimacy? In this case the issue isn't whether this or that modern political tendency has points of contact with fascism -- those always exist -- but what kind of disaster could allow those tendencies to take over. (So it's a term like "anarchy"; this is the view of Polanyi's The Great Transformation, which everybody should read.)

* A coherent set of ideas linked to a particular kind of institution? So we can reasonably talk about fascism when we see the right set of values/ideas -- racism, the valorization of struggle and hierarchy, a purely biological view of human beings, etc. -- embodied in a political party or similar structure? (So it's a a term like "liberalism"; Umberto Eco's widely cited Eternal Fascism piece takes this approach.)

* A grab-bag category that has never been used consistently either by its supporters or opponents, and that has no content today except as a term of abuse?

One reason discussion of "fascism" among even intelligent people of good will -- never mind the Goldbergs -- generates so much more heat than light is that people use the word in such radically different ways.

This book shows that the "you can't judge a book by it's cover" is not always true. The cover tells you all you need to know and after reading endless reviews like Matt's it should be quite clear to most potential readers not to waste their time digging deeper.

OK you guys who read Goldberg's POS, what does he have to say about Bertrand Russell, the co-inventor of symbolic logic, socialist, pacifist, philosopher and prolific writer?

Russell clearly distinguished Fascists from Communists. He felt in no uncertain terms that the Fascists were the greater threat of the two, and argued at length why he thought democratic socialism was the answer to both.

It seems like a serious effort made with care would address Russell head-on. So does it?

"The biggest problem with Goldberg's book is actually that Goldberg himself has the wrong ideology."

Matt, this was a good (if quite hostile) review until you reached this sentence. The book has to stand or fall on its own merits. It smacks of intellectual laziness to dismiss JG's arguments simply because you dislike his politics.

At least JG has presented some evidence (however spotty and incoherent) to back up his claims. Your response doesn't bother to engage with his arguments, but simply asserts that he couldn't possibly be correct because, well, he's part of the "Republican Noise Machine."

That little piece of ad hominem may be sufficient to convince the more close-minded of your readers that you have refuted JG's book. I hope not. Such guilt-by-association is on a level with Coulter and Hannity. (Though a conservative mout-breather would use "socialist" in the same context). We deserve better from you.


Someone should send Dwight Garner a copy of this post and explain that more people would read the NYTBR if he ran stuff like this instead of the inoffensive pablum he went with.

Jalmari:

You have to be kidding. Of course he doesn't mention Russell (except for very briefly as an aside). More troubling still he doesn't try to deal with J.M. Keynes either (except to briefly mention that he believed in eugenics). One would think, with Keynes creating the dominant paradigm for economists and liberals to view the economy and social policy during liberal dominance in the 20th century, Goldberg might talk about him, but of course he doesn't do that because he is writing a brief AGAINST liberalism. It is clear that he is a wounded man. It is astonishing how close he came to saying on his blog and in the book how he wrote this because so many liberals are so mean and call conservatives fascists. Well, he sure showed them.

That little piece of ad hominem may be sufficient to convince the more close-minded of your readers that you have refuted JG's book. I hope not...

That Jedi mind-trick thing? Doesn't work in the real world, guy.

heedless-

MY is not dismissing Goldberg's book simply because of his politics. He is further denigrating Golberg's book because Goldberg supports a political movement that, in many important ways, resembles the worst aspects of fascism. That certainly is relevant for discussion.

"Your response doesn't bother to engage with his arguments, but simply asserts that he couldn't possibly be correct because, well, he's part of the "Republican Noise Machine.""

Did you stop reading MY's review?

"Just curious? Do the people that review Goldberg's book pay for it, or do they receive a press-copy free-of-charge?"-Posted by nvs

I believe they find them in public bathrooms with the first few pages missing.

Jalmari:

You have to be kidding. Of course he doesn't mention Russell (except for very briefly as an aside). More troubling still he doesn't try to deal with J.M. Keynes either (except to briefly mention that he believed in eugenics). One would think, with Keynes creating the dominant paradigm for economists and liberals to view the economy and social policy during liberal dominance in the 20th century, Goldberg might talk about him, but of course he doesn't do that because he is writing a brief AGAINST liberalism. It is clear that he is a wounded man. It is astonishing how close he came to saying on his blog and in the book how he wrote this because so many liberals are so mean and call conservatives fascists. Well, he sure showed them.

why have you dignified it with so much attention?

I have to agree. We know the answer, though. Whether "liberal" or "conservative," the punditocracy is one big social club: once you're in, you're in. You can never say or write something so vile or absurd that you actually lose credibility or your membership card. In fact, if you repeatedly pee in the pool of our political discourse, you'll probably end up writing for the New York Times.

Well the fact is that Limbaugh objectively is fat, and Franken using Rush's own words showed that he was stupid. And then again showed that it is perfectly fair to call loofah/falafel boy a liar based on his public record of lying.

Whereas me, a self admitted liberal, served in the military, took an oath to uphold and defend the constitution, and kind of resent being called a traitor by people who think that 9 out of 10 Bill of Right Amendments are not necessarily binding on their Unitary Executive.

I'll give 'Slander' a pass on the basis of 'Liars', but nothing on our side justifies anything like 'Treason' or 'Fascism'. Lie and you get slapped on the wrist, commit treason in wartime and you are subject to the death penalty. To suggest that accusations of one are simply equivalents of accusations of the other is to trivialize discourse to the vanishing point. Words matter. History matters. And blithe dismissals that Rush gets a pass because he is an entertainer, Ann a pass because she is just a modern Dorothy Parker, and Jonah just another Mencken, ignore the substantive differences. We are living in a world where some people are free to call me a fascist traitor while others are endorsing suspension of habeus corpus and justifying secret prisons. There are readings of the Patriot Act that could land me at Gitmo with no access to Due Process just based on past blog comments. Fascism doesn't become cute dressed up with a smiley face, at some point you have to push back.

Not everything is morally equivalent. Teddy Kennedy isn't the new Stalin. On the other hand Bush is in fact pretty close to the new Franco. Which is not to say that he is close to being the new Hitler. Because I know my history, something that can't be said about Jonah.

Last thought:

Your call for a libertarian rebuttal to the liberal welfare state is well taken, but there already is such a book. (and Raimondo is a bit far out on the Truther scale to write it)

The Road to Serfdom
Friedrich Hayek

Half a century old, but sill as relevant as ever.

Heedless: You misunderstood Matt's point. His point isn't that Goldberg is wrong because of his ideology, it's that Goldberg's ideology prevented him from making what would have been a coherent and interesting argument about the prevalence of statism on both the left and right in modern American politics. What we got instead, to take Matt's word for it, is a different argument that is neither coherent nor interesting.

RickM,

Unless there are some paragraphs that don't show up on my screen, Matt's only substantive response is the bit on Wilson. The rest of the review could have been writen before the book came out.

Actually, it should probably be pointed out that what Goldberg is doing here in terms of historical scholarship is on par with Holocaust denial. I'd say the same thing if someone wrote a book claiming that American conservatism is a form of Russian communism. Or if someone wrote a book claiming that Jesus was a Nazi.

Led,

It may very well be true that Jonah's ideological blinkers have prevented him from making a coherent critique of statism. But Matt doesn't provide evidence of this.

His main thrust (in my reading) was that conservatives writers cynically push liberals' buttons in order to sell books, but that they do not really back their noisy publicity machine with ideas. (See exhibit A: Ann Coulter)

JG claims that he doesn't belong in this company (The "foot-soldier in the right wing noise machine"). Matt finds this risible, but presents no evidence that JG isn't atually sincere.

I find it fascinating to read Goldberg on his Liberal Fascism blog. He is a living example of the dangers of growing up rich and pampered, always told how smart you are, always believing you are an intellectual just because your parents are. When the truth is you just ain't that bright.

Here is someone who makes the most egregious logical mistakes within adjacent paragraphs, yet is deadset on maintaining an intellectual image. For example, witness his assertion that liberals are fascists for giving advice on condoms, that we shouldn't be in the business of regulating "sexual positions". In the very next paragraph he defends anti-sodomy laws as "constitutional." There appears to be no recognition on Goldberg's part of the mental inconsistency it takes to make this argument. And yet he is lauded on the right. Just a beautiful metaphor for the whole stinking shit pile that conservatism has become.

One of the Als came up with a valid point! I'm amazed. That conservative and liberal opinion leader make their money, now, on manufactured outrage, trivializing our politics 24/7, is such a good point that I hope they keep this Al. Since the Als comments are almost all oriented to the politics of outrage, little jabs to bring in this or that completely trivial and non-relevant scandal, they'd be out of a job if there was some shift in attitude - which is why it was also a brave comment. Well done! Take an early lunch.

Fantastic review. And Goldberg's book does indeed need to receive a thorough smackdown, actually as many as possible. This piece of trash is #8 on the Amazon book sales, just making the occasional snarky comment is not enough.

Heedless-

MY never says that JG isn't sincere. However, I believe that you are either insincere or just completely lazy and are not reading anything that MY or your interlocutors are saying. Of course, I have no evidence of this, other than everything you have posted here.

Jonah Goldberg's speaking in DC at the Borders on 18 and L at 6:30 this evening. If anyone wants to meet me there, I'll be the guy in the brown shirt and jack boots.

I was hoping to make it tonight, but may not be able to. Here's the current draft of questions I was hoping to ask/hand out for others to ask. As seen on Sadly, No:

Serious and thoughtful questions for the serious and thoughtful Jonah Goldberg, author of the serious and thoughtful Liberal Fascism. Please remember to be respectful, courteous, and civil when you ask your questions.

In 1957, conservative icon William F. Buckley wrote in Why the South Must Prevail, "...the white community is entitled because, for the time being, it is the advanced race." How did the Liberal Fascists of that time respond to this observation?

The author of the comic strip Life in Hell (I'm not sure how to pronounce his name) has made it abundantly clear that he hates Republicans and Dutch Reagan in particular. Do you address this blatant example of Liberal Fascism in your book or any of your works?

You coined the "Ledeen Doctrine" which states, "Every ten years or so, the United States needs to pick up some small crappy little country and throw it against the wall, just to show the world we mean business." That's awesome! Whom should we invade in 2013? We know that you would never enlist in the military, but who should fight and die for such a noble cause as the Ledeen Doctrine? Why do you think Liberal Fascists have trouble accepting this doctrine?

Liberal Fascists had strong negative reaction to Our Leader's donning a flight suit, landing on an aircraft carrier, and announcing "Mission Accomplished" after we showed the world that we mean business. Why do you suppose they did?

Can we expect the Liberal Fascists to stab us in the back any time soon? Have they already?

During the 2004 presidential campaign, dozens of Liberal Fascists were banished, strip searched, or arrested and thrown in jail for wearing Kerry buttons or t-shirts at Bush events. What is the most efficient solution to keeping this uncivil element from embarrassing Our Leader?

Like all fascists, Liberals hate their own country, The USA, the greatest nation ever. One way they of expressing their fascist anti-nationalism is by openly rejecting flag lapel pins. My question: Can a flag lapel pin be too large?

Starting with the cover, your book compares Liberals to Mussolini and Hitler. That's truly awful, but are they more like Mussolini or Hitler?

Like all fascists, Liberals are tolerant. An example of this was made clear in the 2004 election, when John Kerry would let any riff-raff attend his rallies, especially when that fascist Springsteen performed. Non-fascist Bush, on the other hand, carefully selected his audiences. My question: The loyalty oaths that Bush supporters took at his rallies, can they be too long?

A lot of Liberals oppose the imprisoning of suspected terrorists without charging them with a crime or allowing them access to legal representation. Is their opposition to Bush Administration policies another example of Liberal Fascism?

Liberal Fascists seem to hate the idea of us torturing people who could possibly be charged with terrorism. Why? Why do they hate the extra-judicial spying on Americans by the government/telecom team?

Back in 2000, Liberal Fascists denounced George W. Bush as a know-nothing, towel-snapping, incompetent, chucklehead frat-boy who's only claim to fame was that he was the son of a President. But isn't his incredible success--invading Iraq, the surging economy, torturing dangerously Muslim cab drivers--a great case for nepotism? Why do you suppose Liberal Fascists hate nepotism so much?
Regarding a Liberal Fascist website, the thoughtful conservative pundit, Michael Savage, has noted, "Let me explain who Media Matters is. ... It's run by a bunch of fascist homosexuals. They're the brownshirts of our time." What is it about the homosexual strain of Liberal Fascists that makes it so noxious, and have you thought about teaming up with Mr. Savage since he's a natural ally in the war on Liberal Fascism?

You said, "Liberals the ones who claim free-market economics are fascist." Who are the three Liberal Fascists who most frequently make this outrageous claim?

You said, "Conservatives respect authority — the authority of ideas, traditions, morals, religion, customs, reason, law, excellence and so on. One cannot believe in this kind of authority while having a blanket hostility to elitism in any form." What makes Liberal Fascists fail to bow to the authority of our elites as we conservatives naturally do? How can we correct this key flaw in their worldview?

oh, another facet of Goldberg I find amazing:

On his blog Jonah has actually responded to critics that point out fallacies in his argument and, in cases where it is too obvious to ignore, even admits that he is wrong on points. This seems to point to the concept that Goldberg sees himself as an intellectual, and wants to participate in intellectual debate.

But this is where it gets amazing: the points Goldberg concedes are absolutely central to his case. Yet he claims to have only "mispoke" and that his critics are being unfair. So we have the strange spectacle of a self-professed intellectual conceding that his argument makes no sense, but then using that fact to bash his critics.

As a sociological experiment, Goldberg's blog is absolutely fascinating. Its a real portrait of where we are in America in 2008.

As someone mentioned above, the most significant omission in the book is the absence of any reference to National Review's and its founder's love affair with Franco and the magazine's dismissal of the Civil Rights leaders in the sixties. Just on the basis of his refusal to address these issues, the book richly deserves all the derision that it is getting.

And yet he is lauded on the right.

Is Goldberg lauded? I'd be interested in seeing some kind of hierarchy assembled.

He's awful at arguing and is willing to back off of or qualify any argument he makes if someone he respects challenges him or if he just doesn't know what he's talking about, which is often.

It's hard to imagine that anyone sees him as more than a shoeshine boy, but it's a crazy world.

Al, that's fine, except we are not discussing liberal books here.

The difference is that Al Franken is trying to be funny, while Goldberg doesn't seem to be aware that he is.

RickM,

This seems to be a pretty clear claim of insincerity:

"But of course that just gets us back to the fact that there's no real coherent argument to be extracted here at all. Nor does there seem to have been any real intention of producing one."

Matt later walks it back somewhat:

"Goldberg is actually slow-witted enough that he doesn't understand what's happening"

The implication is that the book, by virtue of its place in the right-wing constellation, cannot possibly be sincere. If its author claims otherwise, he is lying. If he's not lying, he's too dumb to realize that right wing books are by definition insinsere hackwork.

I'm still a bit unclear how an author can be wrong about the provenance of his (or her) ideas, but that is what Matt wrote.

This is a very good review. It's absolutely important to seriously deconstruct this argument. A mistake made constantly around here is that the rest of the world is either you, who already knows this stuff is c*ap, or else a movement conservative who will believe it no matter what.

90% of the world are well-intentioned ignorants who might or might not swallow this whole or reject it completely, depending on what information reaches their ears.

Heedless-

That is obviously not the implication. When MY says that Goldberg's book lacks a coherent argument, he is saying nothing more than Goldberg's book lacks a coherent argument. MY isn't claiming that Golberg is insincere because he doesn't produce, or try to produce, a coherent argument. Goldberg can't, or doesn't want to--that is not an allegation of insincerity, but rather of laziness.

Interestingly, the posters here are for the most part united in condemning Goldberg's book. Matt's post, while interesting, really didn't get into much detail. It does make some points but doesn't close the deal because to do so would require a fuller explication of the flaws of the arguments of Goldberg's book; ie, it would take more text and argumentation.

Let's say Matt is 100% right in what he says, and that providing this fuller argument is unnecessary and also a waste of time (Goldberg would ignore it, etc).

The beauty of Matt's response and the bulk of the posters' responses here is that it plays right into Goldberg's hands; he gets to be a serious intellectual who can't find anyone who will engage him. It's fascinating, because it reminds me of the biologists who refuse prima fascie to engage creationists on similar grounds, "we don't need to engage them."

To engage them legitimates junk science (biology or history) and puts money in their wallets and publicity in their corner. To not engage them lets them be intellectual martyrs who are ignored by the status quo authoritarians too afraid to swat a fly, and thus look weak.

This dynamic is the most interesting thing, to me, about modern conservatism's chip on its shoulder - evolution and history are attacked on their own terms and scientists struggle with how to respond. Actually, this dynamic is repeated again in the news - Fox pretends to be unbiased, when we all know it isn't, but they use the language and guise of science to attack science and objectivity in bad faith.

The war against modernity is the heart of it, the need to revise and attack, the restlessness, the unease with letting tradition be...

Even if you accept the benign description of Goldberg's philosophy, i.e., an orthodox fusion of Burke and Hayek, his argument cannot be sustained from that vantage point. Goldberg employs the libertarian toolkit to make his case. But Republicans and Democrats, liberals and conservatives alike, are all cafeteria libertarians. And Goldberg's implicit claim (more of a premise than a claim, since he doesn't seem obliged to argue it), that conservatives get to the cashier with more liberty items (freedom fries?) on their tray, is problematic to say the very least.

nathan,

great points. i think you are dead on.
what amazes me is that anyone, anyone takes this guy seriously enough to even begin to discuss his ideas in a serious fashion.
i read his blog sometimes. i read his columns and his nro postings, at times. just to understand what the other side is trying to say.
and after years of reading his stuff, it is clear that he is an idiot. he is well-educated, and he has acquired a certain veneer of sophistication, by virtue of his education, but once you actually read his work, his arguments make no sense. whenever anyone actually has an opportunity to pose a question to him, and pin him down and demand a response on point, he is utterly illogical and incoherent and contradiction follows contradiction.
he is a propagandist, pure and simple. and a bad one, at that.
in fact, in the heritage foundation speech clip that you can find posted at crooks and liars, he plainly states that what he is attempting to do is make the term "fascism" less threatening and more acceptable. he states that he wants to, essentially, bring the term into our daily discourse, without the negative connotations that usually are associated with the term.
one wonders why he would want to do so.

Matt's post, while interesting, really didn't get into much detail. It does make some points but doesn't close the deal because to do so would require a fuller explication of the flaws of the arguments of Goldberg's book; ie, it would take more text and argumentation.

I guess it couldn't hurt for more people to link to folks who deal with Jonah's genius in detail.

speed racer, the advantage Goldberg has is that he supports himself within a closed system. The fact that his book would be panned by serious political philosophers doesn't affect his career; there's a self-sustaining group of right-wing consumers available to maintain the professional acclaim necessary to keep his job.

The reason to refuse to engage creationists is that scientists simply accept the fact that creationists can support themselves within their own limited milleu, and so the best that can be done is to keep them isolated there. Engaging them legitimizes them outside their limited community.

I don't think that Jonah is going to be presenting his "findings" at any research conferences any time soon. However, he'll get plenty of opportunities to present his work at Heritage-foundation-sponsored forums, and there's really nothing that MattY, a professional pundit, or a respected political philosopher can do to stop that. These critiques aren't meant to "stop" Jonah because there's nothing anyone could do to make Jonah irrepeutable or unemployable within his own self-sustaining community.

Anyone looking for a detailed smack down of Jonah's book should read David Neiwert's long review.
And for a laugh read Jonah's self satisfied musings.

Speed racer:

I have read most of Goldberg's book, and while I agree a thorough smackdown is in order, the problem is that there is really just so much wrong with this book. The underlying assumption, that there are only two types of political philosophy: classical liberalism and fascism is nonsense. His taking fascism out of the interwar era context is nonsense. His arguing with unnamed "liberal" strawmen who make ridiculous arguments. Nonesense. His tossing out a bunch of bad things Progressives have done, while ignoring counter-examples of progressives in the same era who thought the opposite (one example being his contention that Progressives have always and everywhere been militaristic and imperialistic--except let's not mention that minor Progressive William Jennings Bryan, who vigorously opposed the war in the Phillipines). Nonsense. His ahistoricism. Nonsense. His ignoring liberal intellectuals who obviously don't fit into his thesis (J.M. Keynes and J.S. Mill come to mind) nonsense. His refusal to see that modern liberals, today, are for things like the rule of law etc. Nonsense. His writing paragraphs that start out talking about 60s radicals or Wilson or Roosevelt or the CCC and end by making analogies to unrelated Nazi or Fascist events or institutititions or ideas. Nonsense.

Reviewing a book like that is very difficult.

"Jonah Goldberg's speaking in DC at the Borders on 18 and L at 6:30 this evening. If anyone wants to meet me there, I'll be the guy in the brown shirt and jack boots.

Posted by Dr. Victor Davis Handjob | January 15, 2008 11:45 AM "

Now that's funny.

David, thanks for the thoughtful response.

I agree, Jonah's a mess. His responses are odd, if you haven't read the Salon interview.

The problem is always the same: the underdog/opponent dons the cloak of apparent good faith and then gets to whine and play the victim. It' a very tough posture to defeat, because the logic of it requires the other side to continually dig in and grant the underdog more and more time and validity to show the errors. And even then, Jonah is very selective in his responses, and won't really address the arguments, just like OREilly will simply turn of the microphone, or a creationist ignores mountains of journal articles.

It looks bad for real science, and I don't really know how to escape it. But there it is.

James Gary stupidly writes: "Free style advice: If one's going to assert, "nothing gets conservatives off nearly so much as...," then one needs to cite some other examples of conservatives getting off on it in addition the single instance (Jonah Goldberg, in this case) one's writing about. Or come up with a different opening."

I think Matt can safely assume that anyone who isn't brain dead is familiar with shitbags like Ann Coulter and Michael Savage and Sean Hannity. If you're pretending they don't do exactly the same thing, or if you think they don't, shame on you.

Via wikipedia, I find that Goldberg led one of his recent columns with this line:

Keith Olbermann, MSNBC’s answer to a question no one asked

That's an unattributed rip-off of a Simpsons line.

Ned: Do I hear the sound of butting in its got to be little Lisa Simpson. Springfield's answer to a question no one asked!

Even Goldberg's jokes are hackish.


David writes: "I have read most of Goldberg's book, and while I agree a thorough smackdown is in order, the problem is that there is really just so much wrong with this book."

I haven't read the book, but this is a canny observation about much of what passes for "conservative thought" these days. There's so much wrong with so many of their perceptions and arguments that criticizing them succinctly is impossible. And since they tend to be strident simpletons, they take it as a victory if you can't shoot them down in three sentences.

I think their lack of intellectual coherence is made apparent by their difficulty in picking a candidate this year. They're so far gone they no longer know what they actually stand for. Now it's just about winning.

RickM,

The piece I ommitted between the quotes is:

"Rather, Adam "In Defense of Nepotism" Bellow's basic idea was, basically, let's slap a bunch of shit together that'll piss off liberals, generate buzz, and then maybe conservatives will buy the book. It's cynicism, pure and true, but it makes a reasonable amount of sense."

Sounds like an accusation of insincerity to me.

Either JG is sincere, in which case you refute his points, or he is not, in which case you point that out and justify your claim .

Matt does neither.

....anyone who isn't brain dead is familiar with shitbags like Ann Coulter and Michael Savage and Sean Hannity. If you're pretending they don't do exactly the same thing, or if you think they don't, shame on you.

Yeah. What this blog sure needs is more tired-ass "Us V. Them"-style preaching to the converted, just like those insightful diarists at HuffPo and DailyKos serve up every day. Characterizing one's opponents as "shitbags" is a solid start in that direction.

Great post! Of course, I'm a bit biased, since my "judging a book by its cover" review of Goldberg's appearance on CSPAN's Book TV made a lot of the same points, and, by nature, we always consider anyone who agrees with us to be, by definition, "brilliant!"

Matthew: you're brilliant!

Sad that all this hoo-haw over nothing much has propelled His Illiteracy's Tome into bestsellerdumb. (sic).