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A Very Serious Blog Post

15 Jan 2008 11:17 am

liberalfascism.jpg

It seems that nothing gets conservatives off nearly so much as writing obviously unserious books with patently offensive titles, designed in every way to not be taken seriously, and then get huffy when people make fun of them without having given their precious works the deep consideration they deserve. So while I've been poking and jibing at Jonah Goldberg, I've also been making my way through his book. It gets pretty tedious in parts, contrary to the faint praise with which a lot of people have been damning it it's not witty or clever, so I won't deny having skimmed over parts where I already got the point. But I've read it, and here's what I think.

One major problem with the book is that Goldberg has no ability whatsoever to stick to a coherent line of argument. You might call this book "disparate essays about fascism and American liberalism designed to annoy liberals." He doesn't seem to care about what his various claims amount to or even whether or not they're inconsistent. Thus, sometimes liberals are too mean to the non-Hitler fascists of the world. Other times, the problem is that people on the left in the 1920s were, at the time, unduly soft on fascism. But other times the problem is that people on the left now have views on some subjects (e.g., the importance of public health) that are similar to views fascists had back in the day.

Most egregiously of all, there's an effort to read today's highly polarized party/ideological nexus back onto a very different context. In the real world, we don't expect people who vote for the contemporary Republican Party to William McKinley's views on the gold standard. Similarly, when Karl Rove praises McKinley as the founder of the modern business-oriented Republican coalition, we don't take this as proving that Rove "secretly" shares McKinley's views on monetary policy. Woodrow Wilson, in particular, was a very complicated figure. In his presidency, we see the roots of a lot of modern progressive ideas. We also see a lot of authoritarianism, out-of-control executive power, and dogmatic adherence to white supremacy. You can't really "place" him on the modern ideological spectrum. Unless, of course, you're Jonah Goldberg in which you can simultaneously identify him as an American-style fascist but also very much a contemporary American liberal, and therefore liberalism equals fascism through the simple expedient of doing history ahistorically.

Alternatively, a sensible approach might say that "though today's liberals praise Wilson for his progressive views on labor regulations and efforts to use American power to create an institutionalized liberal world order, his actual administration pursued many highly illiberal policies, especially on race and civil liberties." Paul Starr in Freedom's Power has an enlightening treatment of these issues, talking about the founding of the ACLU in response to the depredations of MItchell Palmer and seeing the contemporary liberal synthesis as forged by taking some of Wilson's ideas and dropping other, more pernicious ones.

Beyond specific errors, lapses in logic, etc. the biggest problem with Goldberg's book is actually that Goldberg himself has the wrong ideology. A certain strand of libertarian, perhaps Justin Raimondo from AntiWar.com, could have credibly written a book with the form of argument "today's liberals rightly identify fascistic strands in contemporary conservatism, but ignore the fascist mote in their own eye" and deliver a diatribe against statism in general and seek to tar everyone, left and right, with lax deployment of the brush of fascism. But that's not Jonah Goldberg. Goldberg is, instead, a loyal foot soldier in the Republican Noise Machine. He's a steadfast supporter of the political party representing the dominant ethnocultural group in the United States, the party that supports torture and unlimited surveillance, the party that supports a larger and more aggressively employed military, the party that supports a more punitive criminal justice system at home, the party whose backers are prone to fretting about low birthrates, the need to police gender roles more rigidly, etc.

I'm not going to say that means contemporary conservatives are fascists. I agree with Goldberg that that's a superficial line of argument that completely ignores the sociocultural roots of American conservatism and European fascism. But nobody with allegiances like that can seriously turn around, point at the other ideological camp, at start yelling "fascism" at the slightest whiff of collectivism.

But of course that just gets us back to the fact that there's no real coherent argument to be extracted here at all. Nor does there seem to have been any real intention of producing one. Rather, Adam "In Defense of Nepotism" Bellow's basic idea was, basically, let's slap a bunch of shit together that'll piss off liberals, generate buzz, and then maybe conservatives will buy the book. It's cynicism, pure and true, but it makes a reasonable amount of sense. The funny thing about it is that as best one could tell, Goldberg is actually slow-witted enough that he doesn't understand what's happening and is apparently genuinely upset that liberals aren't seriously debating his ideas the way one goes back-and-forth against an antagonist whose thinking you respect despite your differing perspectives. That, of course, only makes it funnier to make fun of him and that, in turn, serves the higher call of the marketing pitch.

UPDATE: Goldberg proclaims himself disappointed with the unseriousness of my efforts. Also notes accurately that I've been a bit "pissy" toward him ever since he called me an anti-semite in print.

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Comments (214)

Good and thoughtful review, but Jonah Lucianne does not deserve your time or attention.

Another snarky post dripping with your trade mark Cambridge wit would have sufficed.

You're still taking his arguments too seriously. My super-awesome review puts this sucker right in its place :-)

Now that that's settled, can we get back to laughing at Jonah Goldberg?

The best take on Jonah was to describe him as "a dog who thinks he's people." He clearly thinks he's part of some grand philosophical/ideological process of inquiry and debate, not realizing he's just part of a talking-points-generation noise machine.

That aside, your description of the book doesn't surprise me. Someone with a background in philosophy or law would have approached the effort of writing the book by constructing a very structured logical argument. Jonah's background at the National Review leads him to approach the project by writing a group of scattershot polemical essays.

The question in my mind is why Jonah doesn't embrace his role as a comic polemecist? He could make himself out to be a GenX male Florence King. Why is he trying to pretend to be sort of a modern day gentleman scholar or member of the Algonquin Roundtable? It's clearly not his forte or, for that matter, anything he's spent his life trying to be in the first place.

i, of course, have no intention of reading the book (a varied intellectual diet being one thing, and junk food being another), but i have no doubt that matthew is quite right, since it's been perfectly clear for years that goldberg is incapable of systematic coherent thought and is kind of slow-witted. why should his "book" be any different?

I agree with all of this. Whether or not it makes sense to attack the statist impulses of modern progressives, Goldberg's book is not the way to do it.

I'm not going to say that means contemporary conservatives are fascists. I agree with Goldberg that that's a superficial line of argument

...because, while they agree with fascists about all policy mattersw:

they are a lot further away from realizing their plans than Mussolini was?

they are Americans, and therefore nice?

despite being accomodating to the rise of Hitler, their parents and grandparents eventually fought fascists in WWII?

to say so would support the terrorists?

Just curious? Do the people that review Goldberg's book pay for it, or do they receive a press-copy free-of-charge?


Another snarky post dripping with your trade mark Cambridge wit would have sufficed.

You can only be snarky most of the time. Sometimes you have to roll up your sleeves and really deliver on the devastating critique suggested by all that snarkiness. Just to show everyone that you mean business.

Agreed as to the futility of the search for nefarious historical roots.

Elizabeth Cady Stanton said some pretty awful things in 1870, but it's nonsensical to argue that feminism is rooted in white supremacy. It's rather an indication that society has progressed, and ideas that once were mainstream are now on the fringe.

Like Glenn's column this morning, this points out the terrible consequences to a movement that creates its own parallel reality. In conservative-world, Iraq is a success, evolution is a controversial theory, and liberals are socialists/communists/fascists who want the government to control your every move.

These are axiomatic within the conservative caricature of reality. And the echo chamber is big enough that you can live your whole life there, and disregard all rival facts, arguments, and sources as politically incorrect and not worth engaging. (It's worse, btw, when the people running the country do this than when the people running the English department do it).

Goldberg will not suffer any negative consequences, in right-wing world, for his foolishness. Nor will Morrissey. It's a self-contained world.

Thanks for doing the work of going through the book.

Jonah Goldberg's speaking in DC at the Borders on 18 and L at 6:30 this evening. If anyone wants to meet me there, I'll be the guy in the brown shirt and jack boots.

how does goldberg deal with the fact that yesterday's uberfascists (the nazi's) spent most of their time rounding up, imprisoning, gassing, and burning people with pretty much the same political orientation as modern "liberals", i.e. teachers, professors, trade unionists, socialists, communists, homosexuals and pacifists? i mean, that seems like it would present a real problem for his thesis, no?

1. Free style advice: If one's going to assert, "nothing gets conservatives off nearly so much as...," then one needs to cite some other examples of conservatives getting off on it in addition the single instance (Jonah Goldberg, in this case) one's writing about. Or come up with a different opening.

2. If "Liberal Fascism" is such a dismissable piece of crap as you seem to think, Matt (and I suspect that were I to read the book I'd be in total agreement with you on its merits), why have you dignified it with so much attention?

The hill that Goldberg can't climb, it seems to me, is his repeated assertion that fascism is "right-wing communism" (as he has said in the Salon interview and elsewhere.) The problem is that this is refuted by none other than the fascists themselves, again and again and again. What has aggravated me about the dialogue about this book, as much as one exists, is that people speak as though the motives and ideologies of the fascists are unknowable, that we can only hazard a guess at their true beliefs. That's nonsense. The fascist movement is less than a hundred years old. There is ample primary source material available to anyone who bothers to do a little research. And again and again and again, you find that fascist intellectuals and leaders defined their ideology in opposition to communism and socialism. Mussolini, Marinetti, Franco, Soffici, Panzini, Salazar... over and over again. How can you bridge that divide? You can't. Scholars and historians don't place fascism and socialism in opposition to each other because they have a political ax to grind. They do so because they have the words of the fascists themselves to guide them. And whatever other critique conservatives want to make about the criticisms Goldberg has received, that is the one inescapable fact. An argument that stems from the fraudulent claim that fascism and socialism are the same kind of animal simply can't be bent into coherence. There's no answer for that large of an error.

Those conservative book titles are there for a reason-- they make the books sell better, because the conservative readership wants red meat and a title like "Treason" or "Slander" (Ann Coulter is the master of this) gets their attention.

One thing I lost some respect for Ramesh Ponnuru over (and he is actually one of the more respectable conservatives) is that he wouldn't just admit that he came up with the title "Party of Death" to sell books.

So, we have a failed Jewish author using a cartoon of Hitler to sell books to feed his struggling family.

Jonah's Amerikkka sure has come a long way, baby!!!

...one needs to cite some other examples of conservatives getting off on it in addition the single instance...

To me, this brought to mind the Ann Coulter library, including Treason, Godless, and All Fags Will Burn In Hell, Plus Did I Mention that John Edwards is a Fag? I Mean, Look at His Hair.

On second thought, that last one might have been an article.

Jonah's trick, as he showed in the Salon interview, is to contend that if you give him an hour, he will look up sources that will contradict whatever facts and evidence you present to him to prove that he is full of shit.

You cannot seriously argue with such persons.

Can't we just agree that while the debate of whether fascism could be classified on the left is interesting but in the end completely pointless and purely academic and Goldberg only writes a whole book about it to piss liberals off, the fundamental mistake he is making is comparing social movements and political theories from wildly different times and cultures to draw comparisons that end in absurd results because u can't compare things that are not comparable.

To give an example I am familiar with, part of his argument seems to be that fascists would be liberals in the US because they are "statists".
Well, French conservatives have historically been very big on the power of the State to mould the economy and influence the society. Just as much so as French socialists with the difference being that French socialists wants to use the state to redistribute wealth when French conservatives want to use the state to "create" wealth. De Gaulle who is a conservative by French political standards and is the influence of a healthy number of current UMP officials created a "Ministry of the Plan". Yes, a "plan" like the USSR economic plans. Bottom line is, belief in a strong State plays differently on the political scale in different countries because of history and culture.
In a German/Italian context (and actually most people in Europe think that there were fundamental differences between Nazism and Fascism and that the two should not be mixed up), Statism is not a criteria to judge whether a movemement is on the right or the left. Other criteria come in that clearly push fascism on the right.

In any case, transferring this to an American context is absurd. The lack of knowledge of different contexts and cultures and the absurd transposition of American-infused prejudices about life and the political process is the same of kind of lazy punditry that brought us ... in Iraq (yes, I went there).

That's some flawless logic there James Gary. Matt's spending time dismissing this piece of dismissible crap, so therefore it's not dismissible. What's it like in your brain?

A certain strand of libertarian, perhaps Justin Raimondo from AntiWar.com, could have credibly written a book

Not likely.

First, it would have be a booklet, not a book.

Second, his tight connections and relationships with far-rightists/"paleocons" (Pat Buchanan, for example - what's up, Steve Sailer?) who have expressed admiration for actual fascists (including, yes, Hitler) makes him about as credible as Goldberg on the subject.

But the chapter on Israeli art students will be fascinating, so I hope he tries it.

Jonah took what might have been a reasonable premise about modern western and particularly American society, and went sideways with it, primarily based on research done on the back of cereal boxes.

Yeah, we know that only conservatives would use book titles like that. I mean, no liberal would ever write a book titled, say, Rush Limbaugh is a Big Fat Idiot. Or Lies (and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them). Or Stupid White Men. Or The Big Con: The True Story of How Washington Got Hoodwinked and Hijacked by CrackpotEconomics. Or The Assault on Reason. Would never happen!

John Scalzi wrote an interesting and hilarious entry (or rebuttal, depending on your views) on Goldberg's Salon interview and his comments regarding Mussolini. I believe that Andrew Sullivan linked to it last night; there is actually a intellectual and serious discussion in the comments regarding fascism et al

Yes, all right, so you've read it once. But before you can offer a criticism you really ought to read it again, and once more, and then again out loud. Otherwise you're just being unfair.

matt,

excellent post.
what gets me about people like goldberg, who would never be anywhere near their positions of status, absent a mother or father or uncle and blatant nepotism, is that they appear to be totally unaware of that fact. but then again, if they did have even a slight bit of that awareness, they might not able to function as they do function, as foot soldiers in their movement
my guess is that they spend so much time around other "nepotism babies" - the conservative movement is full of them, from the president on down - that no one ever talks about it, the same way that royalty and monarchs never question their path to power.
while goldberg might not be the worst example of nepotism - as someone has pointed out, the dunce in the white house is probable the worst - goldberg has to be the most obtuse. bush kind of gets it. his petulance and chip-on-the-shoulder all seem to flow, in some part, from his understanding that he is his father's son and that he has had to walk in his dad's footsteps, every step of his life.
goldberg really and truly does not get it. he appears to believe that he is a brilliant writer and thinker, moving and shaping the world around him with his eloquence, rising on the force of his own genius.
the fact that he is his mother's son and that he is where he is in life solely because of her influence, seems to not even occur to him.

You missed this part Al:

...and then get huffy when people make fun of them without having given their precious works the deep consideration they deserve

Neither Al Franken nor, in fairness, Ann Coulter whine about the lack of respect they get. Jonah Goldberg does, and he deserves contempt for that.

Yeah, we know that only conservatives would use book titles like that. I mean, no liberal would ever write a book titled, say, Rush Limbaugh is a Big Fat Idiot. Or Lies (and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them). Or Stupid White Men. Or The Big Con: The True Story of How Washington Got Hoodwinked and Hijacked by CrackpotEconomics. Or The Assault on Reason. Would never happen!

Al, that's fine, except we are not discussing liberal books here. We are discussing conservative books. And the point is that when you title your book "Liberal Fascism" or "Party of Death", you shouldn't wonder why people treat your book like it is another Ann Coulter-like screed.

That's some flawless logic there James Gary. Matt's spending time dismissing this piece of dismissible crap, so therefore it's not dismissible. What's it like in your brain?

Wet and squishy with at least a couple functional neurons, I'd imagine. I hope I never have to find out.

Let me clarify my point: "dismissible" implies that the thing in question is not worthy of attention. Writing at length about a book's dismissibility is, by definition, disingenuous.

Franken, obviously, stated up front that his title of "Rush Limbaugh..." was meant to make fun of Rush's name-calling shtick. Not to mention that the book is a comedy.

Franken knows he's a comedian. Jonah is, however, as mentioned about "a dog who thinks he's people."

Dr. Victor Davis Handjob: Thanks for the heads-up. I have read about half of his awful book and will try to ask some pointed questions tonight.

Maybe I'm just a wrong, wrong person, but I like the cover.

Graphically, it's efficient.

Al, that's fine, except we are not discussing liberal books here. We are discussing conservative books.

Al has a valid point. I've never read any of the books he listed, though, so I can't speak to their content. I personally have come to accept calculatedly-inflammatory book titles as an unavoidable part of modern life, and as I see it, the topic here is the content of Goldberg's book and not its title.

Jonah attempts to make an argument by redefining the term fascism to include liberals. But it really is going a bit far for him to claim that Mussolini, who coined the word and founded the Fascist Party, is not a fascist. Is he totally ignorant of history? Below is a quote from his speech to the Heritage Foundation.

"To sort of start the story, the reason why we see fascism as a thing of the right is because fascism was originally a form of right-wing socialism. Mussolini was born a socialist, he died a socialist, he never abandoned his love of socialism, he was one of the most important socialist intellectuals in Europe and was one of the most important socialist activists in Italy, and the only reason he got dubbed a fascist and therefore a right-winger is because he supported World War I."

Mussolini wasn't "dubbed" a fascist. Mussolini called himself a fascist and in fact invented the term.

"how does goldberg deal with the fact that yesterday's uberfascists (the nazi's) spent most of their time rounding up, imprisoning, gassing, and burning people with pretty much the same political orientation as modern "liberals", i.e. teachers, professors, trade unionists, socialists, communists, homosexuals and pacifists?"


Easy. He says that some senior Nazis were gay or otherwise sexually deviant (by his and their professed norms), so therefore Nazism wasn't really anti-gay. A bit like the modern Republican party isn't really anti-gay, someone with an ounce of self-awareness might think.

"The hill that Goldberg can't climb, it seems to me, is his repeated assertion that fascism is "right-wing communism" (as he has said in the Salon interview and elsewhere.) The problem is that this is refuted by none other than the fascists themselves, again and again and again."

No it isn't. It's that he changes his conception of fascism, or what was bad about fascism, as it suits him. Half the time he calls fascism right communism, and half the time he insists that fascism is a left wing political philosophy, at least in modern American terms.

"Originally being a fascist meant you were a right-wing socialist, and the problem is that we've incorporated these European understandings of things and then just dropped the socialist. In the American context fascists get called right-wingers even though there is almost no prominent fascist leader -- starting with Mussolini and Hitler -- who if you actually went about and looked at their economic programs, or to a certain extent their social program, where you wouldn't locate most if not all of those ideas on the ideological left in the American context. "

To the extent that there's any common thread to the book beyond idiocy and smearing liberals, it's that its an extended whine about how mean it is to put conservatives to be on the same side of the political spectrum as fascists. In order to make that switcheroo, he has to redefine militarism so that it has nothing to do with war, nationalism so that it has nothing to do with nation states and oppression so that it has nothing to do with actual oppression. Quite a piece of work.

This is the best serious discussion of Liberal Fascism that I've seen, especially the last couple paragraphs.

As calling all toasters notes, tho, it leaves open the question of how we should think about fascism in relation to present-day politics. Is it

* A purely historical phenomenon that was the product of institutions and conflicts that just don't exist today? In this case, the only application to a modern context in a loose metaphorical way. (So it's a term like "The Inquisition".)

* One way modern societies can fail catastrophically in response to acute social conflict and a crisis of legitimacy? In this case the issue isn't whether this or that modern political tendency has points of contact with fascism -- those always exist -- but what kind of disaster could allow those tendencies to take over. (So it's a term like "anarchy"; this is the view of Polanyi's The Great Transformation, which everybody should read.)

* A coherent set of ideas linked to a particular kind of institution? So we can reasonably talk about fascism when we see the right set of values/ideas -- racism, the valorization of struggle and hierarchy, a purely biological view of human beings, etc. -- embodied in a political party or similar structure? (So it's a a term like "liberalism"; Umberto Eco's widely cited Eternal Fascism piece takes this approach.)

* A grab-bag category that has never been used consistently either by its supporters or opponents, and that has no content today except as a term of abuse?

One reason discussion of "fascism" among even intelligent people of good will -- never mind the Goldbergs -- generates so much more heat than light is that people use the word in such radically different ways.

This book shows that the "you can't judge a book by it's cover" is not always true. The cover tells you all you need to know and after reading endless reviews like Matt's it should be quite clear to most potential readers not to waste their time digging deeper.

OK you guys who read Goldberg's POS, what does he have to say about Bertrand Russell, the co-inventor of symbolic logic, socialist, pacifist, philosopher and prolific writer?

Russell clearly distinguished Fascists from Communists. He felt in no uncertain terms that the Fascists were the greater threat of the two, and argued at length why he thought democratic socialism was the answer to both.

It seems like a serious effort made with care would address Russell head-on. So does it?

"The biggest problem with Goldberg's book is actually that Goldberg himself has the wrong ideology."

Matt, this was a good (if quite hostile) review until you reached this sentence. The book has to stand or fall on its own merits. It smacks of intellectual laziness to dismiss JG's arguments simply because you dislike his politics.

At least JG has presented some evidence (however spotty and incoherent) to back up his claims. Your response doesn't bother to engage with his arguments, but simply asserts that he couldn't possibly be correct because, well, he's part of the "Republican Noise Machine."

That little piece of ad hominem may be sufficient to convince the more close-minded of your readers that you have refuted JG's book. I hope not. Such guilt-by-association is on a level with Coulter and Hannity. (Though a conservative mout-breather would use "socialist" in the same context). We deserve better from you.


Someone should send Dwight Garner a copy of this post and explain that more people would read the NYTBR if he ran stuff like this instead of the inoffensive pablum he went with.

Jalmari:

You have to be kidding. Of course he doesn't mention Russell (except for very briefly as an aside). More troubling still he doesn't try to deal with J.M. Keynes either (except to briefly mention that he believed in eugenics). One would think, with Keynes creating the dominant paradigm for economists and liberals to view the economy and social policy during liberal dominance in the 20th century, Goldberg might talk about him, but of course he doesn't do that because he is writing a brief AGAINST liberalism. It is clear that he is a wounded man. It is astonishing how close he came to saying on his blog and in the book how he wrote this because so many liberals are so mean and call conservatives fascists. Well, he sure showed them.

That little piece of ad hominem may be sufficient to convince the more close-minded of your readers that you have refuted JG's book. I hope not...

That Jedi mind-trick thing? Doesn't work in the real world, guy.

heedless-

MY is not dismissing Goldberg's book simply because of his politics. He is further denigrating Golberg's book because Goldberg supports a political movement that, in many important ways, resembles the worst aspects of fascism. That certainly is relevant for discussion.

"Your response doesn't bother to engage with his arguments, but simply asserts that he couldn't possibly be correct because, well, he's part of the "Republican Noise Machine.""

Did you stop reading MY's review?

"Just curious? Do the people that review Goldberg's book pay for it, or do they receive a press-copy free-of-charge?"-Posted by nvs

I believe they find them in public bathrooms with the first few pages missing.

Jalmari:

You have to be kidding. Of course he doesn't mention Russell (except for very briefly as an aside). More troubling still he doesn't try to deal with J.M. Keynes either (except to briefly mention that he believed in eugenics). One would think, with Keynes creating the dominant paradigm for economists and liberals to view the economy and social policy during liberal dominance in the 20th century, Goldberg might talk about him, but of course he doesn't do that because he is writing a brief AGAINST liberalism. It is clear that he is a wounded man. It is astonishing how close he came to saying on his blog and in the book how he wrote this because so many liberals are so mean and call conservatives fascists. Well, he sure showed them.

why have you dignified it with so much attention?

I have to agree. We know the answer, though. Whether "liberal" or "conservative," the punditocracy is one big social club: once you're in, you're in. You can never say or write something so vile or absurd that you actually lose credibility or your membership card. In fact, if you repeatedly pee in the pool of our political discourse, you'll probably end up writing for the New York Times.

Well the fact is that Limbaugh objectively is fat, and Franken using Rush's own words showed that he was stupid. And then again showed that it is perfectly fair to call loofah/falafel boy a liar based on his public record of lying.

Whereas me, a self admitted liberal, served in the military, took an oath to uphold and defend the constitution, and kind of resent being called a traitor by people who think that 9 out of 10 Bill of Right Amendments are not necessarily binding on their Unitary Executive.

I'll give 'Slander' a pass on the basis of 'Liars', but nothing on our side justifies anything like 'Treason' or 'Fascism'. Lie and you get slapped on the wrist, commit treason in wartime and you are subject to the death penalty. To suggest that accusations of one are simply equivalents of accusations of the other is to trivialize discourse to the vanishing point. Words matter. History matters. And blithe dismissals that Rush gets a pass because he is an entertainer, Ann a pass because she is just a modern Dorothy Parker, and Jonah just another Mencken, ignore the substantive differences. We are living in a world where some people are free to call me a fascist traitor while others are endorsing suspension of habeus corpus and justifying secret prisons. There are readings of the Patriot Act that could land me at Gitmo with no access to Due Process just based on past blog comments. Fascism doesn't become cute dressed up with a smiley face, at some point you have to push back.

Not everything is morally equivalent. Teddy Kennedy isn't the new Stalin. On the other hand Bush is in fact pretty close to the new Franco. Which is not to say that he is close to being the new Hitler. Because I know my history, something that can't be said about Jonah.

Last thought:

Your call for a libertarian rebuttal to the liberal welfare state is well taken, but there already is such a book. (and Raimondo is a bit far out on the Truther scale to write it)

The Road to Serfdom
Friedrich Hayek

Half a century old, but sill as relevant as ever.

Heedless: You misunderstood Matt's point. His point isn't that Goldberg is wrong because of his ideology, it's that Goldberg's ideology prevented him from making what would have been a coherent and interesting argument about the prevalence of statism on both the left and right in modern American politics. What we got instead, to take Matt's word for it, is a different argument that is neither coherent nor interesting.

RickM,

Unless there are some paragraphs that don't show up on my screen, Matt's only substantive response is the bit on Wilson. The rest of the review could have been writen before the book came out.

Actually, it should probably be pointed out that what Goldberg is doing here in terms of historical scholarship is on par with Holocaust denial. I'd say the same thing if someone wrote a book claiming that American conservatism is a form of Russian communism. Or if someone wrote a book claiming that Jesus was a Nazi.

Led,

It may very well be true that Jonah's ideological blinkers have prevented him from making a coherent critique of statism. But Matt doesn't provide evidence of this.

His main thrust (in my reading) was that conservatives writers cynically push liberals' buttons in order to sell books, but that they do not really back their noisy publicity machine with ideas. (See exhibit A: Ann Coulter)

JG claims that he doesn't belong in this company (The "foot-soldier in the right wing noise machine"). Matt finds this risible, but presents no evidence that JG isn't atually sincere.

I find it fascinating to read Goldberg on his Liberal Fascism blog. He is a living example of the dangers of growing up rich and pampered, always told how smart you are, always believing you are an intellectual just because your parents are. When the truth is you just ain't that bright.

Here is someone who makes the most egregious logical mistakes within adjacent paragraphs, yet is deadset on maintaining an intellectual image. For example, witness his assertion that liberals are fascists for giving advice on condoms, that we shouldn't be in the business of regulating "sexual positions". In the very next paragraph he defends anti-sodomy laws as "constitutional." There appears to be no recognition on Goldberg's part of the mental inconsistency it takes to make this argument. And yet he is lauded on the right. Just a beautiful metaphor for the whole stinking shit pile that conservatism has become.

One of the Als came up with a valid point! I'm amazed. That conservative and liberal opinion leader make their money, now, on manufactured outrage, trivializing our politics 24/7, is such a good point that I hope they keep this Al. Since the Als comments are almost all oriented to the politics of outrage, little jabs to bring in this or that completely trivial and non-relevant scandal, they'd be out of a job if there was some shift in attitude - which is why it was also a brave comment. Well done! Take an early lunch.

Fantastic review. And Goldberg's book does indeed need to receive a thorough smackdown, actually as many as possible. This piece of trash is #8 on the Amazon book sales, just making the occasional snarky comment is not enough.

Heedless-

MY never says that JG isn't sincere. However, I believe that you are either insincere or just completely lazy and are not reading anything that MY or your interlocutors are saying. Of course, I have no evidence of this, other than everything you have posted here.

Jonah Goldberg's speaking in DC at the Borders on 18 and L at 6:30 this evening. If anyone wants to meet me there, I'll be the guy in the brown shirt and jack boots.

I was hoping to make it tonight, but may not be able to. Here's the current draft of questions I was hoping to ask/hand out for others to ask. As seen on Sadly, No:

Serious and thoughtful questions for the serious and thoughtful Jonah Goldberg, author of the serious and thoughtful Liberal Fascism. Please remember to be respectful, courteous, and civil when you ask your questions.

In 1957, conservative icon William F. Buckley wrote in Why the South Must Prevail, "...the white community is entitled because, for the time being, it is the advanced race." How did the Liberal Fascists of that time respond to this observation?

The author of the comic strip Life in Hell (I'm not sure how to pronounce his name) has made it abundantly clear that he hates Republicans and Dutch Reagan in particular. Do you address this blatant example of Liberal Fascism in your book or any of your works?

You coined the "Ledeen Doctrine" which states, "Every ten years or so, the United States needs to pick up some small crappy little country and throw it against the wall, just to show the world we mean business." That's awesome! Whom should we invade in 2013? We know that you would never enlist in the military, but who should fight and die for such a noble cause as the Ledeen Doctrine? Why do you think Liberal Fascists have trouble accepting this doctrine?

Liberal Fascists had strong negative reaction to Our Leader's donning a flight suit, landing on an aircraft carrier, and announcing "Mission Accomplished" after we showed the world that we mean business. Why do you suppose they did?

Can we expect the Liberal Fascists to stab us in the back any time soon? Have they already?

During the 2004 presidential campaign, dozens of Liberal Fascists were banished, strip searched, or arrested and thrown in jail for wearing Kerry buttons or t-shirts at Bush events. What is the most efficient solution to keeping this uncivil element from embarrassing Our Leader?

Like all fascists, Liberals hate their own country, The USA, the greatest nation ever. One way they of expressing their fascist anti-nationalism is by openly rejecting flag lapel pins. My question: Can a flag lapel pin be too large?

Starting with the cover, your book compares Liberals to Mussolini and Hitler. That's truly awful, but are they more like Mussolini or Hitler?

Like all fascists, Liberals are tolerant. An example of this was made clear in the 2004 election, when John Kerry would let any riff-raff attend his rallies, especially when that fascist Springsteen performed. Non-fascist Bush, on the other hand, carefully selected his audiences. My question: The loyalty oaths that Bush supporters took at his rallies, can they be too long?

A lot of Liberals oppose the imprisoning of suspected terrorists without charging them with a crime or allowing them access to legal representation. Is their opposition to Bush Administration policies another example of Liberal Fascism?

Liberal Fascists seem to hate the idea of us torturing people who could possibly be charged with terrorism. Why? Why do they hate the extra-judicial spying on Americans by the government/telecom team?

Back in 2000, Liberal Fascists denounced George W. Bush as a know-nothing, towel-snapping, incompetent, chucklehead frat-boy who's only claim to fame was that he was the son of a President. But isn't his incredible success--invading Iraq, the surging economy, torturing dangerously Muslim cab drivers--a great case for nepotism? Why do you suppose Liberal Fascists hate nepotism so much?
Regarding a Liberal Fascist website, the thoughtful conservative pundit, Michael Savage, has noted, "Let me explain who Media Matters is. ... It's run by a bunch of fascist homosexuals. They're the brownshirts of our time." What is it about the homosexual strain of Liberal Fascists that makes it so noxious, and have you thought about teaming up with Mr. Savage since he's a natural ally in the war on Liberal Fascism?

You said, "Liberals the ones who claim free-market economics are fascist." Who are the three Liberal Fascists who most frequently make this outrageous claim?

You said, "Conservatives respect authority — the authority of ideas, traditions, morals, religion, customs, reason, law, excellence and so on. One cannot believe in this kind of authority while having a blanket hostility to elitism in any form." What makes Liberal Fascists fail to bow to the authority of our elites as we conservatives naturally do? How can we correct this key flaw in their worldview?

oh, another facet of Goldberg I find amazing:

On his blog Jonah has actually responded to critics that point out fallacies in his argument and, in cases where it is too obvious to ignore, even admits that he is wrong on points. This seems to point to the concept that Goldberg sees himself as an intellectual, and wants to participate in intellectual debate.

But this is where it gets amazing: the points Goldberg concedes are absolutely central to his case. Yet he claims to have only "mispoke" and that his critics are being unfair. So we have the strange spectacle of a self-professed intellectual conceding that his argument makes no sense, but then using that fact to bash his critics.

As a sociological experiment, Goldberg's blog is absolutely fascinating. Its a real portrait of where we are in America in 2008.

As someone mentioned above, the most significant omission in the book is the absence of any reference to National Review's and its founder's love affair with Franco and the magazine's dismissal of the Civil Rights leaders in the sixties. Just on the basis of his refusal to address these issues, the book richly deserves all the derision that it is getting.

And yet he is lauded on the right.

Is Goldberg lauded? I'd be interested in seeing some kind of hierarchy assembled.

He's awful at arguing and is willing to back off of or qualify any argument he makes if someone he respects challenges him or if he just doesn't know what he's talking about, which is often.

It's hard to imagine that anyone sees him as more than a shoeshine boy, but it's a crazy world.

Al, that's fine, except we are not discussing liberal books here.

The difference is that Al Franken is trying to be funny, while Goldberg doesn't seem to be aware that he is.

RickM,

This seems to be a pretty clear claim of insincerity:

"But of course that just gets us back to the fact that there's no real coherent argument to be extracted here at all. Nor does there seem to have been any real intention of producing one."

Matt later walks it back somewhat:

"Goldberg is actually slow-witted enough that he doesn't understand what's happening"

The implication is that the book, by virtue of its place in the right-wing constellation, cannot possibly be sincere. If its author claims otherwise, he is lying. If he's not lying, he's too dumb to realize that right wing books are by definition insinsere hackwork.

I'm still a bit unclear how an author can be wrong about the provenance of his (or her) ideas, but that is what Matt wrote.

This is a very good review. It's absolutely important to seriously deconstruct this argument. A mistake made constantly around here is that the rest of the world is either you, who already knows this stuff is c*ap, or else a movement conservative who will believe it no matter what.

90% of the world are well-intentioned ignorants who might or might not swallow this whole or reject it completely, depending on what information reaches their ears.

Heedless-

That is obviously not the implication. When MY says that Goldberg's book lacks a coherent argument, he is saying nothing more than Goldberg's book lacks a coherent argument. MY isn't claiming that Golberg is insincere because he doesn't produce, or try to produce, a coherent argument. Goldberg can't, or doesn't want to--that is not an allegation of insincerity, but rather of laziness.

Interestingly, the posters here are for the most part united in condemning Goldberg's book. Matt's post, while interesting, really didn't get into much detail. It does make some points but doesn't close the deal because to do so would require a fuller explication of the flaws of the arguments of Goldberg's book; ie, it would take more text and argumentation.

Let's say Matt is 100% right in what he says, and that providing this fuller argument is unnecessary and also a waste of time (Goldberg would ignore it, etc).

The beauty of Matt's response and the bulk of the posters' responses here is that it plays right into Goldberg's hands; he gets to be a serious intellectual who can't find anyone who will engage him. It's fascinating, because it reminds me of the biologists who refuse prima fascie to engage creationists on similar grounds, "we don't need to engage them."

To engage them legitimates junk science (biology or history) and puts money in their wallets and publicity in their corner. To not engage them lets them be intellectual martyrs who are ignored by the status quo authoritarians too afraid to swat a fly, and thus look weak.

This dynamic is the most interesting thing, to me, about modern conservatism's chip on its shoulder - evolution and history are attacked on their own terms and scientists struggle with how to respond. Actually, this dynamic is repeated again in the news - Fox pretends to be unbiased, when we all know it isn't, but they use the language and guise of science to attack science and objectivity in bad faith.

The war against modernity is the heart of it, the need to revise and attack, the restlessness, the unease with letting tradition be...

Even if you accept the benign description of Goldberg's philosophy, i.e., an orthodox fusion of Burke and Hayek, his argument cannot be sustained from that vantage point. Goldberg employs the libertarian toolkit to make his case. But Republicans and Democrats, liberals and conservatives alike, are all cafeteria libertarians. And Goldberg's implicit claim (more of a premise than a claim, since he doesn't seem obliged to argue it), that conservatives get to the cashier with more liberty items (freedom fries?) on their tray, is problematic to say the very least.

nathan,

great points. i think you are dead on.
what amazes me is that anyone, anyone takes this guy seriously enough to even begin to discuss his ideas in a serious fashion.
i read his blog sometimes. i read his columns and his nro postings, at times. just to understand what the other side is trying to say.
and after years of reading his stuff, it is clear that he is an idiot. he is well-educated, and he has acquired a certain veneer of sophistication, by virtue of his education, but once you actually read his work, his arguments make no sense. whenever anyone actually has an opportunity to pose a question to him, and pin him down and demand a response on point, he is utterly illogical and incoherent and contradiction follows contradiction.
he is a propagandist, pure and simple. and a bad one, at that.
in fact, in the heritage foundation speech clip that you can find posted at crooks and liars, he plainly states that what he is attempting to do is make the term "fascism" less threatening and more acceptable. he states that he wants to, essentially, bring the term into our daily discourse, without the negative connotations that usually are associated with the term.
one wonders why he would want to do so.

Matt's post, while interesting, really didn't get into much detail. It does make some points but doesn't close the deal because to do so would require a fuller explication of the flaws of the arguments of Goldberg's book; ie, it would take more text and argumentation.

I guess it couldn't hurt for more people to link to folks who deal with Jonah's genius in detail.

speed racer, the advantage Goldberg has is that he supports himself within a closed system. The fact that his book would be panned by serious political philosophers doesn't affect his career; there's a self-sustaining group of right-wing consumers available to maintain the professional acclaim necessary to keep his job.

The reason to refuse to engage creationists is that scientists simply accept the fact that creationists can support themselves within their own limited milleu, and so the best that can be done is to keep them isolated there. Engaging them legitimizes them outside their limited community.

I don't think that Jonah is going to be presenting his "findings" at any research conferences any time soon. However, he'll get plenty of opportunities to present his work at Heritage-foundation-sponsored forums, and there's really nothing that MattY, a professional pundit, or a respected political philosopher can do to stop that. These critiques aren't meant to "stop" Jonah because there's nothing anyone could do to make Jonah irrepeutable or unemployable within his own self-sustaining community.

Anyone looking for a detailed smack down of Jonah's book should read David Neiwert's long review.
And for a laugh read Jonah's self satisfied musings.

Speed racer:

I have read most of Goldberg's book, and while I agree a thorough smackdown is in order, the problem is that there is really just so much wrong with this book. The underlying assumption, that there are only two types of political philosophy: classical liberalism and fascism is nonsense. His taking fascism out of the interwar era context is nonsense. His arguing with unnamed "liberal" strawmen who make ridiculous arguments. Nonesense. His tossing out a bunch of bad things Progressives have done, while ignoring counter-examples of progressives in the same era who thought the opposite (one example being his contention that Progressives have always and everywhere been militaristic and imperialistic--except let's not mention that minor Progressive William Jennings Bryan, who vigorously opposed the war in the Phillipines). Nonsense. His ahistoricism. Nonsense. His ignoring liberal intellectuals who obviously don't fit into his thesis (J.M. Keynes and J.S. Mill come to mind) nonsense. His refusal to see that modern liberals, today, are for things like the rule of law etc. Nonsense. His writing paragraphs that start out talking about 60s radicals or Wilson or Roosevelt or the CCC and end by making analogies to unrelated Nazi or Fascist events or institutititions or ideas. Nonsense.

Reviewing a book like that is very difficult.

"Jonah Goldberg's speaking in DC at the Borders on 18 and L at 6:30 this evening. If anyone wants to meet me there, I'll be the guy in the brown shirt and jack boots.

Posted by Dr. Victor Davis Handjob | January 15, 2008 11:45 AM "

Now that's funny.

David, thanks for the thoughtful response.

I agree, Jonah's a mess. His responses are odd, if you haven't read the Salon interview.

The problem is always the same: the underdog/opponent dons the cloak of apparent good faith and then gets to whine and play the victim. It' a very tough posture to defeat, because the logic of it requires the other side to continually dig in and grant the underdog more and more time and validity to show the errors. And even then, Jonah is very selective in his responses, and won't really address the arguments, just like OREilly will simply turn of the microphone, or a creationist ignores mountains of journal articles.

It looks bad for real science, and I don't really know how to escape it. But there it is.

James Gary stupidly writes: "Free style advice: If one's going to assert, "nothing gets conservatives off nearly so much as...," then one needs to cite some other examples of conservatives getting off on it in addition the single instance (Jonah Goldberg, in this case) one's writing about. Or come up with a different opening."

I think Matt can safely assume that anyone who isn't brain dead is familiar with shitbags like Ann Coulter and Michael Savage and Sean Hannity. If you're pretending they don't do exactly the same thing, or if you think they don't, shame on you.

Via wikipedia, I find that Goldberg led one of his recent columns with this line:

Keith Olbermann, MSNBC’s answer to a question no one asked

That's an unattributed rip-off of a Simpsons line.

Ned: Do I hear the sound of butting in its got to be little Lisa Simpson. Springfield's answer to a question no one asked!

Even Goldberg's jokes are hackish.


David writes: "I have read most of Goldberg's book, and while I agree a thorough smackdown is in order, the problem is that there is really just so much wrong with this book."

I haven't read the book, but this is a canny observation about much of what passes for "conservative thought" these days. There's so much wrong with so many of their perceptions and arguments that criticizing them succinctly is impossible. And since they tend to be strident simpletons, they take it as a victory if you can't shoot them down in three sentences.

I think their lack of intellectual coherence is made apparent by their difficulty in picking a candidate this year. They're so far gone they no longer know what they actually stand for. Now it's just about winning.

RickM,

The piece I ommitted between the quotes is:

"Rather, Adam "In Defense of Nepotism" Bellow's basic idea was, basically, let's slap a bunch of shit together that'll piss off liberals, generate buzz, and then maybe conservatives will buy the book. It's cynicism, pure and true, but it makes a reasonable amount of sense."

Sounds like an accusation of insincerity to me.

Either JG is sincere, in which case you refute his points, or he is not, in which case you point that out and justify your claim .

Matt does neither.

....anyone who isn't brain dead is familiar with shitbags like Ann Coulter and Michael Savage and Sean Hannity. If you're pretending they don't do exactly the same thing, or if you think they don't, shame on you.

Yeah. What this blog sure needs is more tired-ass "Us V. Them"-style preaching to the converted, just like those insightful diarists at HuffPo and DailyKos serve up every day. Characterizing one's opponents as "shitbags" is a solid start in that direction.

Great post! Of course, I'm a bit biased, since my "judging a book by its cover" review of Goldberg's appearance on CSPAN's Book TV made a lot of the same points, and, by nature, we always consider anyone who agrees with us to be, by definition, "brilliant!"

Matthew: you're brilliant!

Sad that all this hoo-haw over nothing much has propelled His Illiteracy's Tome into bestsellerdumb. (sic).

If "Liberal Fascism" is such a dismissable piece of crap as you seem to think, Matt (and I suspect that were I to read the book I'd be in total agreement with you on its merits), why have you dignified it with so much attention?
Posted by James Gary | January 15, 2008 11:51 AM

Because untruths can sometimes kill whole nations. Bad ideas certainly sent Germany down the river. America is not immune.

Do you guys have anything but ad hominem attacks to make? How lame. By stressing your personal animus right off the bat, Yglesias undercuts any argument he might have.

But then if you google the title of the book, the second link that comes up is the definition of "f*ckwad" -- what a classy intellectual response from the left. Who's "noise machine" was it again?

So why bother with a review at all? You should have just written "I didn't read this book, cuz the auther is a f*ckwad" -- that would have been more honest and just as "intellectual."

The idea that "the left" and "fascism" are linked (and that the left bends over backwards to deny it) is several decades old -- Goldberg didn't come up with it, he's just synthesizing these ideas in popular form (I haven't read the book and don't particularly plan to -- it's not a new argument to me!!)

Uh oh, Goldberg has put on his serious pants, read this post and finds it lacking in seriousness. Seriously.

He's so seriously disappointed about the lack of serious responses. So disappointed that he doesn't appear have noticed Neiwert's extended critique (which is no doubt unserious and not worth his time) and is only able to post sycophantic emails from similarly serious people.

Do you guys have anything but ad hominem attacks to make? How lame. By stressing your personal animus right off the bat, Yglesias undercuts any argument he might have.

But then if you google the title of the book, the second link that comes up is the definition of "f*ckwad" -- what a classy intellectual response from the left. Who's "noise machine" was it again?

So why bother with a review at all? You should have just written "I didn't read this book, cuz the auther is a f*ckwad" -- that would have been more honest and just as "intellectual."

The idea that "the left" and "fascism" are linked (and that the left bends over backwards to deny it) is several decades old -- Goldberg didn't come up with it, he's just synthesizing these ideas in popular form (I haven't read the book and don't particularly plan to -- it's not a new argument to me!!)

Characterizing one's opponents as "shitbags" is a solid start in that direction.
Posted by James Gary | January 15, 2008 2:45 PM

Tell me noble James, if your opponent was Pol Pot, would you call him a shitbag? Or would that not be conductive to a correct understanding of the situation?
The point is shitbag is as shitbag does. Many conservative spokespeople have earned the moniker "shitbag" through their actions. It's takes a special kind of blindness not to see it and a special kind of cowardice not to call a spade a spade.

Andrew Sullivan comes to mind, as do most of the "liberal" Washington press corps from Mr Jim Lehrer at the newshour down to the sewer at the Washington Times.

It's America's affliction.

“A certain strand of libertarian, perhaps Justin Raimondo from AntiWar.com, could have credibly written a book with the form of argument.”

I think that gets near the heart of what’s wrong with the Goldberg book. Goldberg is basically making, badly and in a partisan way, an argument that has been many times before in the past by much more honest writers. In fact, the strongest critics of liberal authoritarianism were the New Left historians that emerged in the late 1950s and 1960s: Gabriel Kolko, William Appleman Williams, Christopher Lasch, et cetera. Also writing in this vein are various good libertarian and conservative scholars: Robert Nisbet, Murray Rothbard, John Lukacs. (Goldberg cites Lukacs in his book).

The difference between, say, Lukacs and Goldberg is worth bearing in mind. Lukacs has written somewhere: after Hitler we are all national socialists, whether we’re liberal or conservative, right or left, we all believe in some mixed regime that combines nationalism and socialism.

Now, that’s a very distressing and controversial point to make, but it does get at a basic truth. And it’s made in a non-partisan way (Lukacs is as critical of the Republicans as the Democrats).

The same could be said of Robert Nisbet, a critic of the managerial state whether promoted by liberals or conservatives.

Goldberg wants to say that the tradition of national socialism is only being carried on by liberals, which is absurd.

The difference between Lukacs and Goldberg is the difference between a real intellectual and a partisan polemicist.

Independent wrote-
"Do you guys have anything but ad hominem attacks to make? How lame."

Read Dave Neiwert. He did the intellectual legwork for us.

"By stressing your personal animus right off the bat, Yglesias undercuts any argument he might have."

By your own logic, anything you write is undercut and everything Jonah writes is undercut (he calls liberals fascists!).


"So why bother with a review at all? You should have just written "I didn't read this book, cuz the auther is a f*ckwad" -- that would have been more honest and just as "intellectual.""

It wouldn't be more honest. Its hard to honestly state that one did not read the book when one did, actually, read the book, as Yglesias did.

"The idea that "the left" and "fascism" are linked (and that the left bends over backwards to deny it) is several decades old -- Goldberg didn't come up with it, he's just synthesizing these ideas in popular form (I haven't read the book and don't particularly plan to -- it's not a new argument to me!!)"'

Well DUH! Everyone knows Nazis were leftists. After all, their parties name was NATIONAL SOCIALISTS!!!!1 its right in the title.

I just checked at memeorandum, and presto! Yglesias fell right into Goldberg's trap. Just like Independent noted a few minutes ago, and Jonah himself, it's probably better not to write anything at all than to snark and dismiss.

The trap has been set and left bloggers keep falling into it, they want to dismiss Jonah's book without a full takedown. But two paragraphs that invoke the right wing noise machine and refernences to tortured logic, etc, are just playing right into Jonah's hands. And the beat goes on...

Jeet,
Excellent point.
I hope that was substantial enough for the ad hominen whiners.

Yes, Orcinus has been great lately. He posts multi-parters. He's got his latest up just today. Go check it out, I'm reading it now...

I think the most telling criticism of the Magnum Doughpus is that it's all over the place in terms of what it's talking about.

It suggests that he doesn't have the sticking power to write a 450-page book with a coherent methodology, thesis or set of terms. Or that his editors weren't thorough (or bothered) enough to point it out.

Ultimately, it's a long, long trolling effort. I'm tempted by the line of thought that says 'Ignore The Trolls' applies equally to those with book contracts as those confined to blog comments. But addressing why such a poor, silly book is published, and not by a reliable propagandist like Regnery, is important: Jonah is emblematic of wingnut welfare.

Independent - You should check out the posts by Freddie and lemuel pitkin up above for more substantive criticisms.

My issues comes with Goldberg trying to tie the modern American left to the specific 1920's-40's phenomenon of Facism. It would be one thing if he said, "Movements to stregnthen the power of the State can lead to horrible abuses such as..." but he doesn't do this. Instead he tries to ascribe Facism, an ideology specifically described as of the right by its founder, to the left so that he can associate it with the current American left. And aside from some collectivist tendencies (and even those are widely divergent), the two movements just simply do not have much in common.

You just don't see the Democratic party strong-arming the American equivalents of Krupp or Daimler-Benz into making war machines. The whole idea of a "permanent war economy" was a very big part of Facist economic thought. Again, this lacks any even close approximation to the American left today.

. So many words, so little content. Goldberg's book? No, this "discussion". What isn't simply puerile name-calling is characterized by doing exactly what Goldberg is accused of by most here--finding some fact, somewhere, that is disconnected with or antagonistic toward the thesis, and screaming "Gotcha!" It's akin to debunking an astronomy text that names those twinkling lights up in the night sky as stars, planets, and such by saying that one occasionally sees twinkling lights in the night sky that belong to aircraft, so therefore this "astronomer" doesn't know what he's talking about.

The above, combined with the fact that the overwhelming majority of commenters hereon haven't read the book, and thus are immediately consigned to the category of hangers-on and fellow travelers, makes this whole thing really kind of sad. One hopes to find in the Atlantic thoughtful pieces and intelligent commentary. But, I suppose, as with the ocean, there must also be a load of whale shit.

speed racer, I dispute some that good-natured mockery is "playing into Jonah's hands."

speed racer. personally, i think you're a bit to quick to lament that any mockery or criticism of Jonah is "playing into his hands." In fact, I think that MattY portrays the issue in a way that frames the argument as it should be framed: Jonah is just a none-too-bright blogger who published a book whose appropriate response is criticism and mockery from the blogosphere, pointing out that Jonah is nothing more than an idiot blogger who got a book contract.

"Playing into Jonah's hands" would be giving Jonah a chance to discuss his thoughts on the pages of the LA Times or featuring the book in the pages of a magazine on historical studies or a laymen's political magazine.

Lucas Cato-

I had two read you post three times to decipher it. I hope English is your second language.

Anyway, snarking is fun. Yglesias has read, or is reading the book, so you cannot accuse him of being ill-informed of Goldberg's arguments. Also, Goldberg has a blog dedicated to his book and his arguments in the book. He has also done numerous media appearances that anyone using teh google can find.

So, complaining about people mocking a book they haven't read doesn't carry much weight. If it does, I have a book for you, where I argue--very seriously I might ad--that all Republicans are gay Stalinists. I'll sell you a signed copy.

Jonah is just a none-too-bright blogger who published a book whose appropriate response is criticism and mockery from the blogosphere, pointing out that Jonah is nothing more than an idiot blogger who got a book contract.

and the fact that he got his start because his mom helped him by feeding him info on the clinton/lewinski matter should always be stated. otherwise, the full picture is not portrayed. his connection to his mom and the clinton/lewinski matter explains a lot.

I don't know, Tyro. Liberals are stuck. After all, this past Sunday he had the highlighted op-ed in the Wash Post, and it mentioned his book. He was interviewed in Salon. He's on CSpan's rotation. I think he was on NPR. He is on the Amazon best sellers list.

I would say that Matt is indeed trying to spin the narrative that Jonah is none too bright and should be mocked. I also think that Jonah is winning this particular battle - to the Liberals, Jonah's a joke, but they are not his audience. Jonah's received a ton of praise, to my surprise. He LOVES the snark.

Another point, Tyro, is that the liberal snark is hardly good natured. It's quite mean-spirited, from what I can tell, but that's subjective, of course. (That's just my assessment.) That too, Jonah loves.

So I guess I would say at this point Jonah is winning the war of words - he's getting an awful lot of attention in the non-liberal press, an awful lot of praise (which I really have to say, still surprises me. The NYT book review really gave him a soft ball revirew, imho.), and it's moving up the charts. He's getting wealthy off this one. And he gets to stick it in the eye of the liberals, who rage impotently on Niewert's, Douthat's, Klein's, and now Yglesias' blogs about it. I think his plan is unfolding exactly the way he wants it too, I hate to admit. But I see your points, Tyro. I don't regret or disagree with mocking Jonah, I just think it's part of his own dialetic to pundity profits... He really does get to win either way. His reputation doesn't seem to get tainted in the process.

It's akin to debunking an astronomy text that names those twinkling lights up in the night sky as stars, planets, and such by saying that one occasionally sees twinkling lights in the night sky that belong to aircraft, so therefore this "astronomer" doesn't know what he's talking about.

No, it's akin to debunking an astronomy text that asserts that the moon is made of green cheese...but grants that the moon might be of a different order of green cheese than regular green cheese.

I find it interesting that Goldberg perpetually harangues his critics, MY included, for not addressing the main arguments in his book. Yet it is entirely unclear what main arguments he considers to be unaddressed. Matt specifically accuses the book of not really having a central argument at all. Goldberg "rebuts" this by accusing Matt of failing to address his arguments. And around and around we go.

One would think that a very serious intellectual might actually explain what his thesis is and show how his critics are failing to address it, rather than just repeatedly accusing people of missing the point, whatever that point may have been. A very serious intellectual might even have explained what his thesis is in the book.

Lucas Cato, Independent, speed racer-- I'm interested to know what you think about my complaints above. If you want, I could provide citations for some of the speeches and essays that I'm drawing on.

Just another Greg brings up a key feature of old school fascism: permanent war mobilization. In the Salon interview, Jonah states that Libs have the moral equivalent - they work toward a common purpose.

What can you say to that? THIS is the thread connecting the two? So, libs are surrender monkeys who are pacifists and traitors, who are also weak and cowards and want america to lose, AND they unite around a common purpose, which is the current day's equivalent to a war economy?! See how stupid this is? Jonah gets to retain the old Libs are weak and traitorous, and add the fascist war mobilization bit, except it contradicts the first part, so he mutates it into the common effort bit (which makes no sense).

Here is an example of Jonah's tortured comparison, to me. So Libs today are fascist because they want a moral crusade against ... whatever they unite against, but are also traitors and self-hating ... members of a heritage that began as ultranationalists and worshippers of violence. This is as good as any place, imo, to show the absurdity of Goldberg's comparisons. They don't make any sense.

This, also, is how I would have written this post, actually, if I were to write it. Because there's a min of snark and some specificity and this is a way to criticize Jonah without having to read the whole damn book. Because Jonah keeps trying to say "Read the book!"

But the Salon interview alone has enough holes in it so that you don't have to. This would be my rebuttal to say, Douthat, who mocks Yglesias for ... mocking Jonah.

speed racer, it's gotten to the point where I really just don't see what point you're trying to make at all.

"Jonah gets attention." Well, yes, that's a problem-- he has gotten a lot of undeserved attention out of his book, which really doesn't appear to contain any scholarly or political value. That has hardly anything to do with MattY, who addresses Jonah's weakness as a political thinker/blogger. If you want to complain about Jonah "winning", complain to CSPAN or the WaPo for treating the book with more attention than it deserves. Or attack the system which allows Jonah to work while producing nothing of merit, which strikes at the very heart of the concept of American meritocracy.

I don't think, however, that MattY is playing any role in enabling Jonah. Rather, a beltway-based culture that produces and promotes "experts who aren't really experts" is to blame. One might associate MattY with this dysfunctional culture, but in the context of this blog, MattY is acting as a blogger criticizing Jonah for being just another ignorant blogger writing a book on a subject he knows nothing about.

As I said, it's not really clear what your complaint is about, other than you feel that deriding Jonah's work as it deserves to be derided, in this specific forum, somehow "helps" him.

Freddie - I haven't criticized you at all ...

If you follow the links back, you will find that JG did not call MY an anti-semite. In fact he said the opposite:

Clark and Yglesias were negligent on both counts. That doesn’t make either of them Jew-haters.

That makes it very hard to take his "review" seriously.

--gh


And he gets to stick it in the eye of the liberals, who rage impotently

While I have a healthy contempt for Jonah, he is hilarious. There's entertainment value in beating up on him; like Bush, he's an ignoramus, but unlike Bush he's not aware (or proud) of it.

What's stunned me about the blog posts on Jonah over the past week is how they invariably attract commenters, whom I've never seen before, that defend Jonah at every turn and call upon all the bloggers to rise to the better angels of their nature and insist that each and every act and argument of Jonah be Seriously Engaged in a way that you never hear demands for other random arguments to be engaged.

Does Jonah have a fan club that was deployed to counter criticism of his Magnum Opus?

Freddie - I haven't criticized you at all ...

I didn't mean to suggest that you did. It just seemed from some earlier comments that you were complaining about the lack of substantive criticisms, and I was interested about what you thought of mine. If I misread you, I apologize.

Well, the point I began to make was a humble one, Tyro. I was trying to avoid shooting daggers at anyone in particular, mostly because I think we're all on the same page her, namely that I've read about a dozen good points that seem to torpedo Jonah's book.

The problem is, from a bird's eye point of view, that the outcome of all of it is that Jonah wins in the fullest sense, I think.

The only real point I'd make about Matt is that his post didn't help his own 'side' - there wasn't much substance to it, and I think it'd would've better served him to be a bit more specific than to just trowel on another layer of snark. It really didn't advance ... anything. Matt's post hinted at some meat but didn't really deliver. That kind of half-gesture serves Jonah perfectly.

Look, I don't want to agitate you, Tyro. If you want to flame or mock Jonah, go right ahead. I was making a pretty simple point. I just don't think posts like this get Matt's team very far. But if its' fun, or if it's therapeutic to vent, or if whatever, go right ahead. Really. I'll leave you be.

If you follow the links back, you will find that JG did not call MY an anti-semite. In fact he said the opposite

Bullshit. No, JG did not explicitly call Matt an anti-semite. What he did do was repeatedly make allusions and inferences that Matt was an anti-semite, such as comparing him to Charles Lindbergh. So he clouds the air and conveys the impression that Matt is an anti-semite, without having the guts to actually do so. Which is, among other things, an act of profound cowardice.

Thought you all mike like this. Rod Dreher, on what it was like debating our very own Jonah Goldberg, today, at Dreher's site:

"I haven't read "Liberal Fascism," and don't intend to, but I am not the least bit surprised by this observation. I finally got tired of arguing with Jonah over at the old National Review "Crunchy Cons" blog (the predecessor to this one) because it felt like shadow boxing. He'd raise one set of objections, which I'd try to answer, and then he'd jump to another line of attack, over and over. It was, well, incoherent, and it finally occurred to me that for whatever reason, Jonah hated the book -- which was fine; it would have been odd had all conservatives liked the book -- and wanted to throw everything that crossed his mind at it, just to see what would stick. I don't think he was doing this consciously, but it was arguing in bad faith, I believed, and not an argument that was possible for me to win. Or, ultimately, an argument worth having. Larison more or less nailed the dynamic of that discussion here. I remember thinking at the time that Jonah's most consistent complaint about the book was that it could undermine conservative unity by pointing out fault lines within conservatism -- fault lines Jonah believes, or believed then, didn't exist. But of course they do, as we now see this yea

speed racer, I think what you're railing against has nothing to do with MattY but rather has to do with a larger problem of the beltway culture which considers Jonah to be more worthwhile than is warranted.

Back to your earlier allusion to the creationists, I think that the scientists succeeded in marginalizing creationism very effectively, particularly after the creationists' earlier promotion of ID in a last ditch effort to get "engaged" with mainstream science. Previous to this, scientists would attempt to "rationally debate" creationists, only to realize that this was a trap: the creationists specialized in debating and sophistry, which the only thing the scientists had on their side was scientific data and an ability to publish original research.

MattY's reaction is, actually the appropriate one: point out that Jonah is making an argument he can't back up and demanding that he, Jonah, fix what's wrong, rather than expect that MattY should be the one who takes Jonah's arguments seriously.

That the rest of the beltway doesn't follow along and instead treats the "conservative pundit bubble" seriously is the problem.

So he clouds the air and conveys the impression that Matt is an anti-semite, without having the guts to actually do so.

It's the short form of the style that would blossom in Liberal Fascism.

Bullshit. No, JG did not explicitly call Matt an anti-semite.

rofl

Which is, among other things, an act of profound cowardice.

And this can be broadened. Jonah may whine about there being no serious critiques of his book -- i.e. there are none he wants to engage. But his shoddy defence so far of his 450-page troll is pure intellectual cowardice.

The phenomenon does raise a question: how does one deal with trolls who have book contracts and a circle of cohorts whose incomes depend upon logrolling their work? Ridicule is the only honest approach, combined with an assessment of the structure that perpetuate such travesties of history, just as creationists perpetuate travesties of science.

gh laughed when he watched Schindler's List. gh supports David Duke. gh really reminds me of Henry Ford. gh recommended that book Protocols of the Elders of Zion to me. gh swore to me that no Jews died on 9/11. gh said that you should hire Jewish accountants, but make sure you hire someone to keep an eye on them, too. gh told me to be careful not to get scammed when I go to buy a diamond from a Jewish store. gh is a big Mel Gibson fan, particularly that Jesus movie he made, if you get what I mean. gh owns a "brown-shirt", wink wink.

What? I never accused gh of anti-semitism.

Tyro:

Those are some solid points, well said. It's infuriating how pundits will nod gravely at anything their fellow pundits say as long as it is said in an even tone of voice. See Kristol. No accountability.

Otherwise, I think there are few points I'd squabble on with you, but not worth beating into the ground over.

Speed

What? I never accused gh of anti-semitism.

rotflmao

What we were waiting for.

The question in my mind is why Jonah doesn't embrace his role as a comic polemecist? He could make himself out to be a GenX male Florence King. Why is he trying to pretend to be sort of a modern day gentleman scholar or member of the Algonquin Roundtable?

It appears to be a necessary step among those who enjoy the benefits of wingnut welfare. Michelle Malkin had her travesty-history put out by an imprint of a mainstream publisher, had serious historians laugh at it, then got sent back down to the minors to do quick-and-dirty hackwork for Regnery.

Jonah is trying not to make that mistake, by coming up with something so amorphous in its subject matter that even if Robert Paxton, for instance, were to describe it as an extremely silly book, he could sniffily describe it as what you'd expect from the liberal-fascist ivory tower.

If "Liberal Fascism" is such a dismissable piece of crap as you seem to think, Matt (and I suspect that were I to read the book I'd be in total agreement with you on its merits), why have you dignified it with so much attention?

When an adult shits in the room, and receives payment for doing so, it provokes a different response than when a baby soils itself.

It's akin to debunking an astronomy text that names those twinkling lights up in the night sky as stars, planets, and such by saying that one occasionally sees twinkling lights in the night sky that belong to aircraft, so therefore this "astronomer" doesn't know what he's talking about.

It's akin to debunking an astrology text that names those twinkling lights up in the sky as the bodies of mythical heroes ascended to heaven. Would you have to read that to debunk it?

To anyone who knows anything about the actual history of actual fascism, the book's main thesis is just a silly piece of political propaganda. There's more than enough information out there to tell that.

the overwhelming majority of commenters hereon haven't read the book, and thus are immediately consigned to the category of hangers-on and fellow travelers,

My 400 page book, "Lucas Carton Rapes Small Children" is coming out next week. I assume you'll have to read it carefully to see whether it's true or not.

Today's democrats and liberals do want to limit freedom. They do wish to create a state controlling every human act: what we eat, drink, read, think.

Call anything racist, bigoted, etc., we will ban it because we know better. People get fired, sent to re-education/sensitivity classes, campuses get speech codes.

In the Democrat/liberal world of today, trial lawyers and teachers' unions run the nation.

Once, liberals strived to "offend". The line they crafted: who are you to determine what's offensive?

Now, Democrats/liberals/media call anyone who doesn't follow the line offensive --- or any other list of names.

Today's democrats/liberals are nothing like the people with whom I identified and followed. There is a great intolerance among those who claim to champion tolerance and lecture us all about the need for diversity.

"Goldberg proclaims himself disappointed with the unseriousness of my efforts. Also notes accurately that I've been a bit "pissy" toward him ever since he called me an anti-semite in print."

Matt,

Did Goldberg actually call you an anti-semite? I just read the allegedly offending Goldberg essay, expecting to find that accusation. Instead, I found Goldberg explicitly stating that, although disagreed with your backing of Clark's "New York money people" comments, "That doesn’t make either of them [you or Clark] Jew-haters. That's the complete opposite of calling you an anti-semite, no? This doesn't seem like an example of the philosophical rigor Tyro credits you with.

Scott:

You can't be legit. That kind of trolling for dollars is too obvious.

But just for fun, substitute "GOP" in for liberals and tell me, in good faith, whether your post makes even more sense.

Did Goldberg actually call you an anti-semite?

Psst Fred: Jonah wrote a book with a Hitler cartoon and a name-drop of Mussolini on the cover called Liberal Fascism, yet refers to liberal fascism as "unwanted hugs."

The second printing is out and the book has been retitled:

Pantloads of the Elders of Golberg.

-GSD

Jonah Golderg. Intellectual Clown.

Max smirk.

Enough said.

Will Jonah Goldberg weclome the application of the Ledeen Doctrine into the halls of punditry? If so I am pretty sure I can kick his, Bill Kristol and Bill Bennett's all at once.

-GSD

Jonah Golbderg. Intellectual Clown.

Max smirk.

Enough said.

Fred, if you think that column is the reverse of calling me an anti-semite I've got a bridge I'd like to sell you.

With a reference to that photo-fascist Nietzsche your review might be titled "A Will to Unfairness".
As to Mr. Goldberg's wit I make no claims; he makes me laugh but his humor may be too low-brow for highly aesthetized liberals like your readers but as to his point or points concerning socialism and fascism and modern American liberalism and conservatism I found, as a former socialist/lefty, much worth thinking about. Many important ideas stem from a simple or commonplace empirical observation. Here, Goldberg wonders why it should be that calling someone a socialist is not in many places considered a pejorative (on the contrary) while it is always so with the word fascist. To point to Hitler's horrors doesn't explain this social phenomenon as even more people died from the application of socialism in all it's manifold incarnations then did under the Nazis. While this may seem a trivial thing it conceals mental habits designed to resist or obstruct historical truths and for the honest liberal willing to examine his first principles and their historic antecedents it may represent the beginnings of knowledge....he may, for example, come to reckognize the difference between European rightist movements and American conservatism...

So, GOP utensil Jonah Goldberg would have us believe that he sat down and wrote a blog post - with link - pointing to Matt's withering attack on his book, without having glanced at it and read enough to know whether he would or could reply to it. No, no first glance, just a blog post, link, and promise to reply to Matt's critique substantively and thoughtfully and carefully.

But - alas! - after finally finding time to click the very link he himself posted, and read the critique that he himself alerted his readers to but did not read, he discovers to his dismay that the critique does not warrant a meaningful response.

This is a neat trick - get easy credit for a desire to substantively and seriously engage one's critics, and then refuse to engage them at all.

Am I the only one not buying this horseshit?

heedless—
Of course Goldberg’s book shouldn’t be dismissed simply because of his having a conservative ideology, nor even because of its cover, which deserves condemnation on its own terms. The point, rather, and this is my view, but I think it’s similar to what MY is saying in his “wrong ideology” line, is that the danger of over-politicizing personal and social life is not unique to the left side of the spectrum, and Goldberg does not seriously address the ways in which the values and reasoning of the right pose distinct dangers of their own to freedom and autonomy.

Goldberg elides much of the import of left concerns by saying that personally, he supports many liberal reforms (contraception, for instance, or some gay civil rights): hey guys, he’s effectively saying, I’m reasonable—don’t stereotype my views as uniformly reactionary. But these concessions miss our point: many unpopular freedoms ought not to be dependent on the vagaries of anyone’s personal reasonableness; if majorities, including many on the right, do not share Goldberg’s partial, “bemused” tolerance for nontraditional lifestyles, these freedoms would be lost, and cultural minorities would have nowhere to vindicate their right to live out what might be their deepest commitments and values. Liberal values raise potential tensions for a culture of freedom, and conservative values, in different ways, do so as well. Goldberg’s concern over these tensions is not equally distributed, however, and his lack of equal treatment in this regard is something he doesn’t seriously defend, which makes his book more of an ideologically partisan exercise than it needed to be, and less of a principled defense of freedom than he seems to imagine it as being.

Here, Goldberg wonders why it should be that calling someone a socialist is not in many places considered a pejorative (on the contrary) while it is always so with the word fascist.

Maybe it's the association of fascism with brutal suppression of minorities and the association of socialism with free education and health care. Who knows in this topsy-turvy world?

Nice smear, Matt. I am sure Andrew Sullivan will be duly impressed. Now how about writing a review instead and actually attempt to rebut Goldberg's arguments and facts? Did you find a single one that was wrong?


Maybe it's the association of fascism with brutal suppression of minorities and the association of socialism with free education and health care. Who knows in this topsy-turvy world?


This guy should read the book as he is a perfect example of how obtuse (willfully or congenitally) so many liberals are....(does he mean that the socialists in the USSR to Cuba treat minorities well or only that everybody also got free health care? As the Ramones sang 'bad bad brain')
Goldberg addresses all of this amply in the book.

I thought the book was pretty good.

Sorry.

Guess I'll have to buy this book and read it now. What the hell...

Guess I'll have to buy this book and read it now. What the hell...

Yaaaawwwwnnnnn...

I'm glad I don't give a shit about any of this.

Goldberg addresses all of this amply in the book.

How could that tub of lard address anything without doing so amply?

Let the morons cry out: The white male is the Jew of liberal fascism!

Overheard at Jonah's talk at Borders earlier this evening. While waiting to hear him, the two guys in front of me had this conversation after identifying each other as fellow conservatives. (I swear I am not making this up.)

Guy 1: Man, I am suprised there weren't protesters outside or something--knowing this town.

Guy 2: Yeah, but if there were we could bring out the baseball bats and show them some real fascism.

Guy 1: uh, yeah...

By the way, the title's due to H. G. Wells. Of course Wells coined the term before fascism became The Word That We Dare Not Speak.

By the way, the title's due to H. G. Wells.

I think he died some time ago.

Saying something by saying that you're not going to say it is such a common enough technique that there's even a word for it. I'm not going to bother telling you that it's called "apophasis."

i can discount goldberg's "book" without having read it. what's the problem? does he read german? does he read italian? he'd better be able to read both and have spent years in archives in europe doing original research before writing a book on the topic of fascism. but he can't, and he didn't and he and his "book" and anybody who thinks for a second that there is anything in the "book" of value are not to be taken seriously.

also, nietzsche was not a "proto" fascist. "will to power" was a collection of posthumous essays published by nietzsche's sister after he died. it was not intended for publication and as such is in no way representative of nietzsche's thought. really, anyone who thinks goldberg is a serious intellect should just stay the hell away from nietzsche 'cuz he's way over your head.

"To anyone who knows anything about the actual history of actual fascism, the book's main thesis is just a silly piece of political propaganda"

wow, that's like....super convincing. way ta go pudit message board poster!!

joe davis—
Socialism ought not to be defined by its worst exponents, particularly since, in my view, the abuses to which the ideology has certainly at some times (but not others) been a party do not flow from its basic ideology. (The mistakes of ultranationalism, which is not synonymous with conservatism but is a strain of it, by contrast, flow more centrally from its core ideas.) But in any case, what Goldberg ought to have argued more clearly is that both political sides can, at times, move in oppressive directions, and that these trends ought to be opposed no matter where on a political spectrum they originate.

Every time I read a string of comments like these I feel a little ill. I'm reminded why I've completely changed my entire social structure in order to avoid conversations like this from people like you. I'm glad I don't know any of you.

Observe: this is me, pissing off.

*slam*

I think he died some time ago.
Impressive. When did you figure that out?

In the '30s, before the excesses of Mussolini and Hitler, fascism didn't have the negative connotations it does on. Goldberg's title is borrowed from Well's language. Wells regarded the liberal movement as an enlightened form of fascism, and he meant that (as far as I can tell) as a Good Thing.

I don't think Goldberg does though, so I think the use of the word today is a bit under the belt.

I'm reminded why I've completely changed my entire social structure in order to avoid conversations like this from people like you.

How ironically amusing.

Goldberg's title is borrowed from Well's language.

Ah, so the title is "due to" Goldberg and not to Wells. Just as I suspected.

Hmm - One of Goldberg's goals in his book is to correct the notion, widespread on the Left, that fascism is somehow right-wing. He is careful to emphasize that he is not equating modern day liberals with fascists. He is also not, as Yglesias seems to think, reading "today's highly polarized party/ideological nexus back onto a very different context". Rather, he is proving his point - that fascism shares roots with contemporary liberalism. So Yglesias's confusion in paragraph two above - in which he blasts Goldberg;s incoherence - is itself incoherent. I guess that is what happens when you skim a book. Geez.

He is careful to emphasize that he is not equating modern day liberals with fascists.

This is why the book's called Liberal Fascism: The Secret History of the American Left, From Mussolini to the Politics of Meaning and has a Hitler cartoon on the front. Good to know!

Freddie--

I apologize for the delay in response. It wasn't until today that I wandered back by, curious to see if there had been any change for the better in this discussion. I find, alas, that the answer, on the whole, is "no". You civilly asked for a response, however, and though in later posts you seemed to me less civil and thoughtful, I decided that your (I believe initial) post, in which you state quite emphatically that fascists such as Mussollini and socialists/communists like, well, take your pick, were diametrically opposed, perhaps did deserve consideration and maybe a response.

There does indeed seem to be a large mass of teaching laying down and then buttressing the claim that fascism and socialism are opposite extremes. On closer look, however, I've generally found that these claims are most often presented as tautology, without real explication.

Even a basic reading of European history of the twentieth century finds that Mussolini considered himself to be both fascist and socialist, and that he seemed to think the two in no way found necessary contradiction in the other. In the late '20s, as I understand things, a split began to develop between those socialists who saw the only proper direction for developmental of their creed as being globally totalitarian versus locally or nationally so. The question was whether socialists would have vanilla ice cream and be pleased with it, or whether there would be 31 flavors--Italian, Russian, German, even American. One might get Rocky Road instead of Mint Chocolate Chip, but one was still getting socialism.

In the conflict that ensued, those climbing onto the wagon of International socialism decided to decry and denigrate the various national socialists as of the "right". This finally gave us a residue which has prompted many to link fascism necessarily with the farther right of the political spectrum, when the reality is that such need not be the case.

While I have not yet read Goldberg's book, from what I can gather of his arguments, it seems that the book's greatest weakness might be a failure to admit that some cardinal features of fascism in the modern mind--most specifically, totalitarianism--can spring from conservative ground as well as that of the left. (Please note that I use conservative here in the American sense.) That fascism, in its anti-individualistic fervor, is anathema to most modern conservatives does not preclude the possibility that some conservative impulses could be seen as potentially taking one down that road.

Goldberg is indisputably correct, regardless of what else one makes of his thesis, in reporting that H. G. Wells used to term "liberal fascism" to describe his desire for a highly centralized, at least largely totalitarian state run by "the best minds". Whether one thinks such an arrangement desirable is a secondary discussion. That there is a line of heritage running from Wells and other progressives of his era on through American politics on the side often now called "liberal", coursing through FDR, LBJ, and, now, HRC, also seems indisputable.

I think that perhaps what has caused the greatest part of the frenzied uprising on the left in response to Goldberg's book is that he has refused to begin with the same set of assumptions as held by most modern liberals (NB: not classical liberals). When basic beliefs are challenged, the natives do indeed get restless.

I will grant that I am not deeply read in these areas, and that some things I think true may not be so; my hope would be that Goldberg's detractors admit the same, when it is so, and be willing to consider opposing evidence rationally rather than merely reflexively.

He called you "an anti-semite in print"?

"...Clark and Yglesias were negligent on both counts. That doesn’t make either of them Jew-haters."

If that's calling someone an anti-semite, then yelling "Hey fatty" is complementing someone on the success of their diet.

Pathetic.

First, to describe Liberal Fascism as an unserious title is untrue. It makes a very serious point.

Second, MY’s central claim, that Goldberg’s book has no coherent line of argument is untrue. His argument is that Italian Fascism shares common intellectual roots with modern American liberalism, not with modern mainstream American conservatism. Anyone who has read Hayek or followed the scandal at the University of Delaware can see his point with breaking a sweat. (Except for idiots.)

Third, nothing in the post measures up to the seriousness advertised.

Fourth, Goldberg did not call MY an anti-Semite in his column. I went back & re-read the article.

Fifth, this post makes me wonder: Does the Atlantic sponsor an intelligent conservative blog to balance the ignorance & stupidity of this liberal-fascist blog?

I need to run. Apart from a few laughs, my time would have been better spent finishing Jonathan Phillips’ book on the Fourth Crusade. For that matter, my time would have been better spent reading Dr. Seuss.

Wait, wait, wait.

You claim that Mr. Goldberg's book is 'tedious at parts', while writing a blog post about it that is tedious from beginning to end.

Irony, thy name is Yglesias.

Shorter John Knight:

"Did so. Did so! Did so; no backsies infinity!"

Now that is a serious and thoughtful blog comment from Mr. Knight.

I thank the gods for sending Jonah to amuse me.

Matt,

Could you please provide a quote where Goldberg called you an anti-Semite? It is not in his column about Clark, that's for sure. Was it ever published?

Matt,

Could you please provide a quote where Goldberg called you an anti-Semite? It is not in his column about Clark, that's for sure. Was it ever published?

Clearly Eli is not a moron in the way that Jonah is, but he inhabits a familiar moronic tradition.

So basically you seem to be saying that Goldberg is right but that doesn't matter? As a libertarian, I find this debate amusing...you are all dirty statists to me. Still, any outside observer can see that collectivists have done far more damage than the traditional fascists. Stack up Stalin and Mao next to Hitler and Mussolini, and the "left" loses.

you can simultaneously identify him as an American-style fascist but also very much a contemporary American liberal, and therefore liberalism equals fascism through the simple expedient of doing history ahistorically.

Balderdash. Jonah goes out of his way to say modern liberals are NOT fascists in the mold of the old authoritarians, but at worst are kindly authoritarians trying to better people. Jonah's point is just that modern left-liberals tend to pretend their left-fascist roots never existed rather than repudiating them. This goes back to the Soviet efforts to paint socialist apostates like Hitler and Mussolini as "right-wing."

It's pretty clear, for instance, that Mussolini's brutal populist syndicalism (Fascism), grew out of his long assocoiation with the Socialist Party, and Mussolini never disavowed his Socialist views.

In the first half of the twentieth century, many people believed liberal democracy had outlived its usefulness, and the left's calls for a dictator echoed here in America as well as in Europe. Dictator was not a bad word back then, and lots of people thought one was necessary to establish social justice by running the economy in a way that benefitted the working classes.

Balderdash. Jonah goes out of his way to say modern liberals are NOT fascists in the mold of the old authoritarians

The presumption that Jonah knows what he's talking about has been dealt with.

Righteous Bubba is a moronic tradition all his own. What a pompous, ignorant, narrow-minded %*&^$%#@.

JB says,

So basically you seem to be saying that Goldberg is right but that doesn't matter? As a libertarian, I find this debate amusing...you are all dirty statists to me. Still, any outside observer can see that collectivists have done far more damage than the traditional fascists. Stack up Stalin and Mao next to Hitler and Mussolini, and the "left" loses.

I'm guessing that self-proclaimed libertarian JB still lives with his Mommy and Daddy. Any takers?

Poor John Knight. Gotta be tough to defend Jonah when he can't remember who started fascism.

It's pretty clear, for instance, that Mussolini's brutal populist syndicalism (Fascism), grew out of his long assocoiation with the Socialist Party, and Mussolini never disavowed his Socialist views.

Yeah, uh huh, unless you count the little things like Mussolini denying the central claim of Marxist socialism -- that there was a central and driving class conflict within nations -- and supplanting it with his own -- that the true class conflict was *between* "proletarian" and "bourgeois" nations, and therefore his justification of a government which forced the classes to cooperate in subservience to the State.

After all, if you totally subvert something and make it mean the opposite of what it did, that's not like "disavowing" or anything, right?

Oh gee.

In a speech given sometime back, Jonah Goldberg was trying to say that Mussolini was considered a “right-winger” (i.e., right-wing socialist) because he opposed Word War I. Instead, he got his words jumbled & said “fascist” instead of “right-winger.”

Oh dear. He must be an idiot.

Wait. Don’t brilliant people sometimes jumble their words? Don’t some brilliant people suffer from dyslexia, or speech impediments, or other communication impairments? Yeah, they do.

Goldberg is correct to say that the kind of sleazy smear offered by Righteous Bubba & his ilk shows “bad faith.” Honest disagreement, analysis, & argument are alien to Righteous Bubba.

RB, are you from Buffalo? You remind me of another sleazy, Jew-hating* liberal, one from Buffalo.


* Goldberg is Jewish. RB hates Goldberg. Therefore, Goldberg hates some or all Jews (at least one). Thus, if we descend to RB’s sneering level of discourse, then RB is a Jew-hating liberal.

Any guess on how many of these folks are sockpuppets?

"Rather, Adam "In Defense of Nepotism" Bellow's basic idea was, basically, let's slap a bunch of shit together that'll piss off liberals, generate buzz, and then maybe conservatives will buy the book. It's cynicism, pure and true, but it makes a reasonable amount of sense."

Sounds like an accusation of insincerity to me.

He's accusing the publisher of insincerity, not Jonah. That's why he used the words "Adam Bellow." I realize this is tricky so I'll try to use small words from now on.

Case in point. My footnote should have read:

* Goldberg is Jewish. RB hates Goldberg. Therefore, RB hates some or all Jews (at least one). Thus, if we descend to RB’s sneering level of discourse, then RB is a Jew-hating liberal.

Yeah, uh huh, unless you count the little things like Mussolini denying the central claim of Marxist socialism -- that there was a central and driving class conflict within nations -- and supplanting it with his own

Obviously socialism comes in forms other than Marxist. Mussolini's government was formed by his faction of the Socialist Party. He then banned the other half as a threat to his power and exiled them.

Like Hitler, Mussolini needed a version of socialism that would help him seize power for himself. By grafting nationalism/racism onto socialism's populist (but transnational) appeal, they were able to accomplish this.

After all, if you totally subvert something and make it mean the opposite of what it did

He did not disavow Socialism; even as he exiled the former Party he declared it was "in his bones." More to the point, he did not disaow the central tenet of socialism: government direction of the economy.

RB hates Goldberg.

I must say, having Jonah around helps people write funny things. He's been very stupid for quite a while, but his book is an excuse for some extra-special stupid, and the release of it and the attendant publicity is enormously entertaining.

So John K.: you and your dummy friends are down with "the white man is the Jew of liberal fascism"? Don't people usually babble such things from underneath shopping-cart tents behind the strip mall?

This comment thread has all the makings of a self-important liberal circle-jerk.

Have at it boys, because that's the closest you're going to get to the real thing. Hayek said the same thing as Jonah 60 years ago. Fascism = Socialism = Collectivism. The only thing that is different is economic and social individualism (conservative beliefs). And that "compassionate conservative" crap is just a watered down version of the log turds that the left lay out in trying to equalize everyone by making everyone poor.

Hayek said the same thing as Jonah 60 years ago.

So you're saying this Hayek person is an idiot? I mean, come on now, Jonah's pretty dense and throwing that out there isn't nice at all.

Goldberg's reply is humorously dissected on InstaPutz.

This comment thread has all the makings of a self-important liberal circle-jerk.

Have at it boys, because that's the closest you're going to get to the real thing.

Is that supposed to be an insult? I hope not, for your sake.

Obviously socialism comes in forms other than Marxist.

Sure. Okay. Why not? Obviously, fascism comes in many forms. In fact, it comes in whatever form nimrod nepotists want it to be.

If someone happens to reverse the very basic meaning of "socialism", than sure, okay.

Then "liberal democracy" includes totalitarian dictatorships and absolute monarchies. Why not? "Obviously."

Oops, the second line, in which Matt taunts liberals because, unlike him (presumably), they will never participate in a real circle jerk, should also be in italics.

Righteous Bubba

I said:
He is careful to emphasize that he is not equating modern day liberals with fascists.

You said:
This is why the book's called Liberal Fascism: The Secret History of the American Left, From Mussolini to the Politics of Meaning and has a Hitler cartoon on the front. Good to know!

I say:
Good point. What I meant - but didn't say clearly - is that Goldberg is careful to say that by Liberal Fascism he isn't insinuating that liberals support everything fascists have done - you know, all the repression, the Holocaust, etc. But he is arguing that Fascists and modern day liberals share the same roots. Again, he's making the argument in the context of what he sees as a misimpression that Fascists are right-wing. And if you think about the use of the term today, I think you will realize that it is ALWAYS used against cconservatives. Always. My point is that I think Yglesias missed that point in his skimming.

What I meant - but didn't say clearly - is that Goldberg is careful

Look, no he isn't. You're missing the point of the book if you're trying to parse the arguments, which the guy is incompetent to make.

The point of the book is to put "liberal" and "fascism" together and say it a lot. A hefty chunk of hefty Jonah's writing is distilled here.

Really, the guy's too dumb to pick up a phone to track down source material.

he did not disaow the central tenet of socialism: government direction of the economy.

What an absolute retard. This is the standard right wing nimrod's definition of "socialism".

By that right, the socialist revolutionaries of the late 19th and early 20th century would have been happy with monarchs taking absolute reign.

If you drop the class conflict, if you eliminate the workers versus capitalist dynamic, then it isn't socialism.

That is what Mussolini did. He "disavowed" socialism by repeatedly insulting it, by calling its theory wrong. But you don't care, because you've got it all worked out.

I know you want to redefine socialism as anything not endorsed by libertarian free market fundamentalists, but this is just pathetic.

After all, by this definition, it is simply not possible for there to be ANY form of government which is NOT "socialist" to have absolute power over the economy, which therefore means that "socialist" versus anything else is an absolutely empty definition.

Bunch a god d*** redneck bullsh*t: "Well, ya see, whut Soshulism meens is Gubmit intrafeerens in da Uhkonmee."

Idiots. You don't have to like or endorse "socialism" or Marxism in any way to get beyond such pathetic nonsense as that.

Righteous -
OK - you say he's dumb and fat. Not to be crude, but I feel like I'm in a pissing contest. WTF, can we try to discuss this without name calling? And spare me the "Jonah called me a fascist" line. Hell, your tag is, I assume, meant to insult people like me - conservatives. It is a crude stereotype you employ, yet you have no compunction in ridiculing Goldberg for being, in your eyes, a simpleton.
What I don't get is the seeming irresistable urge on the part of liberals to first establish that anyone who disagrees with them is stupid. Whatever you think of Goldberg, he isn't stupid. I don't like Clinton or Obama, but I don't find it necessary to label them dumb. It strikes me that this obsession with stupidity is a refuge for those who are actually incapable of responding substantively to an argument. (And, no, that's not meant to be a euphemism for stupid.)
As I read these posts it is clear that most of the folks here have not read the book and have no intention of reading the book. But they are quick to take someone else's opinion as fact. Now, conservatives do this too, I know. But isn't it ironic that all the "smart" people here find nothing wrong with jumping on a bandwagon without due diligence? After all, nothing says stupid like waxing eloquent on a topic about which you know nada.
But I guess I'm just revealing my own fascistic stupidity. (At least I'm thin.)

Whatever you think of Goldberg, he isn't stupid.

That opens the loop.

After all, nothing says stupid like waxing eloquent on a topic about which you know nada.

And that closes it.

El Cid -
you're brilliant. Congrats.
Actually, I'm the dufus for thinking anybody here was actually interested in discussing anything. Hey - at least you didn't really call anybody any names in this post. I mean, you obviously allude to my stupidity, but don't directly say it. That's an improvement.

mike s: Seriously. What do you do? What do you do?

What do you do when you've spent time reading, even working with courageous, bright, and incredibly hard working people of conservative, liberal, or even socialist bent trying to derive some understanding of this giant historic eruption of a phenomenon -- "fascism" -- and that this has been going on for darned near a century? Real researchers, working hard to understand something that is challenging, that isn't easy, yet verged on destroying much of the known world?

And then some little spoiled lazy brat comes along spouting nimrod arguments barely hatched out of think tank sloganeering, and expects to be taken somberly and seriously just like the people who have actually done real work?

Mind you, this is different then simply expending energy. As you know, the common notion of work is not the same thing as doing something. There are any number of pseudo-scientists (now even more of them probably thanks to the web) who spend enormous amounts of time and energy claiming that their junky half-minded propaganda is instead an astounding and meaningful revelation the meanies of the world are suppressing with their glib suppressive meanness.

This kind of Goldbergian crap is an insult to anyone who's curious to learn about the historical phenomena of fascism, modernity, totalitarianism, socialism, liberal democracy.

If it feels mean to you or insulting to you as a "conservative" to hear that, to imagine that a distinguished actual conservative historian would have to throw this junk out if one of his students tried to offer it, well then that says more about the maturity and self-centeredness of modern conservatism than the liberal fascist mean intolerance of liberals.

Quite a collection of leftwing musings! Release it with the title "Crusty Smegma: A Look At The Fetid Underbelly of Contemporary Liberalism" and step back, Yglesias.

Righteous Bubba’s response to a book of real substance, heavy with evidence & logical arguments is to say that Jonah Goldberg is “very stupid.” He mocks me & my “dummy” friends. He uses nothing but cheap, irrelevant personal attacks. Then we get this gem: “this Hayek person.”

Let’s see…

F.A. Hayek won the Nobel Prize in economics (1974), authored The Road to Serfdom, one of the earliest & most insightful analyses of Fascism & National Socialism, and was probably the most important social philosopher of the 20th Century, but RB knows him only as “this Hayek person”? Books, RB, they’re not just for propping up your Playstation.

Obviously, RB is ignorant on a grand scale, and arrogant & stupid to boot. He ventures into mind-reading by asserting that the “point of the book is to put ‘liberal’ and ‘fascism’ together and say it a lot.” Argumentum ad hominem at best. At worst, a lie intended to distract readers from Goldberg’s very real insights.

When the liberals here want to engage Goldberg’s arguments instead of relying on dishonest personal attacks, I’ll be happy to address their questions. Until then, I’m taking a break so that I can go wash off the odor of stupidity & malice.

Mike, in certain circumstances public figures become objects of derision because they are fucking idiots who do and say stupid things. Then people talk about them in ways designed to elicit laughs. These are called jokes and you may have seen them on TV.

You'll just have to accept that Jonah, through little work and no thought, has become one of these public fools that people with good sense laugh at.

When the liberals here want to engage Goldberg’s arguments instead of relying on dishonest personal attacks, I’ll be happy to address their questions.

If you can outline an actual argument made by Goldberg, then maybe it might be worthy of address.

El Cid -
What do you do? Well, for starters, what you just did - react to it passionately but coherently. What the hell good does it do to call him stupid? Or a nimrod, for that matter.) He recognizes what you say - that fascism is hard to pin down. I fail to see how his book is an insult to anyone looking to learn about fascism, etc., but based on your posts you know a hell of a lot more about it than I do. Maybe you're right. So overwhelm me with that, dude. I'm not trying to be patronizing or insincere, but I do enjoy the intellectual debate that can occur as a result of a book like this. It pisses me off, however, when people resort to name calling. I repeat - he ain't stupid. You seem to be saying he's out of his league on this topic. OK - so now I'm listening.
Oh - it doesn't feel mean to me, or insulting. Just pointless.
But, I like your last post. (Not that that means a damn thing, really.)

Then we get this gem: “this Hayek person.”

John, what that means is that you didn't get a joke.

God I love this thread.

Oh, what the heck.

Ya bunch of dumb liberals! You just afraid of how smart a real historian is! All a y'all's just afraid that somebody finly proved that you and your Hillary and Stalin and Mao and Ted Kennedy and Franklin Roosevelt fascist friends is all one of a kind.

Y'all wouldn't know a brilliant argument if one of 'em snuck up on you in the woods and went, like 'Boo'. Here we got a big book with literally hunnerts of pages and all kinds a notes and stuff and y'all still don't think it's good enough for you.

I think you're all a bunch a damn snobs what think you're better than us good workin' people conservatives who live out here in the Heartland and who appreciate a good honest scholar and gentleman when one of our radio shows tells us about him.

I hear this stuff all the time about how you have to thoughtfully "engage" every pseudoscientist or historical crank that comes along.

That's what this Goldberg "effort" is. It isn't some hard-working historian's new examination of previously ignored themes, or use of new evidence to take a look at previously difficult topics.

Nor is it the product of a hard-working non-credentialed expert to add insights on history. People do that with moderate frequency.

Rather it's like yet another argument that the Queen of England is in charge of the entire U.S. drug trade.

I don't deny that any crank argument might prompt an intelligent discussion. Someone writing about their new stupid attempt at a perpetual motion machine with magnets and other anti-gravity principles might prompt a really helpful discussion of physics by a real scientist or even knowledgeable amateur.

But I'm not a baby, either.

Some slack-a** effort by a liberal or left-winger to re-write a great chunk of history or social theory by cobbling together a bunch of foot-noted junk might get savaged by angry right wingers. Say, if they were to allege that the real Stalinist threat was by Conservative Communists, and how William F. Buckley was more truthfully representative of the ComIntern than Lenin ever was.

And if the work in question was a sloppy, badly done sack of crap, as evidenced in a nice plethora of excerpts and scans, it wouldn't matter that some parts were less irrational or actually sensible. You don't get to produce a load of utter junk and then whine because you liked some parts better than others.

I say that Goldberg's defenders grow up a bit and maybe realize that this isn't about them.

I fail to see how his book is an insult to anyone looking to learn about fascism,

Well, the smilely face Hitler is kind of insulting to many of us. Also, comparing liberals (starting with the cover) to Hitler and Mussolini is also insulting. Many of us liberals believe that both were very, very bad men.

Sooo.... catch Goldberg on The Daily Show? Very funny.

mike s: historians of the period are not thin on the ground.

If Goldberg's argument were both novel and substantial, it would have already been made. Making novel and substantial arguments is how academic historians earn their doctorates and their spurs. This is not an argument from authority, but a recognition of how the writing of history works.

Goldberg has done no primary research. He conflates and confuses definitions. He is selective about historical context, and prone to anachronistic leaps -- for instance, in his description of Nazism in terms of modern 'identity politics' -- that render his argument absurd, because his terms of reference mean one thing on one page, and another on another.

Michael Ledeen, a conservative with whom I disagree on everything poltical, spent his postgraduate years in the Italian fascist archives and wrote substantial, novel books and articles about Italian fascism. His review at Pajamas Media is worth reading.

I liked what someone elseblog said: pick up Jonah's book in the bookstore, look at the subjects in the index, perhaps even the references. Read those books first, because if you read one book about fascism and it's Jonah's, you will end up more ignorant than if you'd read no books at all.

Have no illusions: if you just want something that helps you pull the blinkers down over your eyes, please feel free to display Liberal Fascism proudly on your bookshelf or nightstand. But also understand that other people may hold the same judgement towards you that is prompted by owning a copy of David Icke's Children of the Matrix. How an Interdimensional Race has Controlled the World for Thousands of Years-and Still Does for non-humourous reasons.

In short, what El Cid said.

Hayek said the same thing as Jonah 60 years ago. Fascism = Socialism = Collectivism.

Shorter Hayek: "I have a hammer, thus these things are nails."

There is a distinct lack of serious argument supporting the idea that Fascism is a liberal-leftist ideology on this thread. Simply put fascism requires the melding of the state, as personified by a dictator for life, with corporate and military interests. The state directs the economy, but all wealth and ownership remains in private hands. Owners are benefited, workers are denied collective rights. To deny any association with right-wing ideology is a leap and requires some strong argument, otherwise is seems absurd on it's face.

Of course one can reach totalitarianism via the left. But to deny that it can also find a home as an ideology of the right is to willfully distort history for political goals, not historical ones.

mike s—
I’m a liberal of sorts and nothing I’ve said has criticized Goldberg’s intelligence. So it’s not an “irresistible” urge, although it’s common among political writers generally. My general critique pertains to the book, not to Goldberg; I find the book problematic for two main reasons.

First, it explores tensions between the liberal tendency to seek unifying state purpose to address certain kinds of social concerns and society’s commitment to individual freedom, but neglects the distinct ways conservative thought and policy pose dangers for that freedom. (His critique of compassionate conservatism as I understand it is in effect a way of saying that that idea is in important ways unconservative; it’s not a critique of conservatism’s anti-freedom tendencies per se.) This imbalance implies that liberalism has a problem with freedom as such that conservatism does not share, but he does not defend such an assertion or address the arguments against it.

Second, he treats overlaps in thinking and totalitarian behavior within previous fascist regimes and within some modern liberal trends as overly conclusive evidence of what liberalism essentially means. Granting for the sake of argument his contention that liberalism “shares roots with” fascism, a characterization I don’t in fact concede, I’m still not persuaded that such commonalities say anything defining about liberalism. The worst exemplars of a philosophy—liberalism, conservatism, or any other—do not ipso facto define its meaning or implications.

A third problem is that the cover art is quite offensive and he ought not to have agreed to its use.

For a critique of Goldberg's work by someone who does know of what he speaks, one may look here: http://pajamasmedia.com/xpress/michaelledeen/2008/01/14/fascism_liberal_and_otherwise.php

Although Ledeen strongly disagrees with Goldberg on several points, he, an indisputable expert in the field, finds Goldberg's writing worth considering, and the comments section actually has intelligent discussion predominating, unlike, well, here, for instance.

There are here two main themes. One, call Goldberg whatever nasty names the writer has at hand. Two, insist that the man can't possibly have put any real work or thought into this, and that he's certainly not to be taken seriously, especially since he's not part of academia, from whence the only "novel and substantial" ideas come.

As a veteran of academia, I will strongly assert to all willing to listen that "novel and substantial" ideas are not what fuels the vst majority of academic activity. Promotion and tenure committees might like "novel", but they're much more comfortable with substance, if one considers substance synonymous with "piles"--of what, is often irrelevant, as long as it has been "peer-reviewed". Given that those committees of "peers" are stacked to the rafters with leftists of various stripes with strong motivation to protect their own ideas and supporters, it's not hard to see why the train of academic activity is found hurtling down PC tracks to socialism and the like, with the only windows on the left.

Now reading on and researching the topic myself--even just superficially, over the last couple of days--I can say that I find myself disagreeing with Goldberg on several points, but also that I'm learning much, about the American progressive movement especially. Would that modern liberals/progressives would do the same--we'd all be better off.

So many on the left, like so many here, have taken to the tactics of throwing bottles from the safety of the cheap seats that such activity is already becoming parodic in this arena.

Have fun, boys and girls, try not to mess yourselves, and remember, mommy's not around to clean up after you.

Although Ledeen strongly disagrees with Goldberg on several points, he, an indisputable expert in the field, finds Goldberg's writing worth considering

Note the first sentence: Jonah Goldberg, my buddy and boss at NRO

You'll find Ledeen's review - which undercuts most of Jonah's book - referenced upthread by pseudonymous in nc, who is an awfully smart person and someone who Jonah would call a liberal.

Also worth a giggle is Jonah's initial response to his employee:

It's too serious a review, based on too much of knowledge of the subject, for me to respond now (hint, my first impression is that I think Michael's too close to the subject).

In other words, Ledeen's too much of an expert to understand Jonah's know-nothing propositions.

Have fun, boys and girls, try not to mess yourselves, and remember, mommy's not around to clean up after you.

Posted by Lucas Cato | January 17, 2008 12:01 PM

And you call yourself a proponent of serious discussion?

Bullsmith--

Yes.

I recognize that there have been some well-considered, thoughtful comments here. But they have been the distinct minority. All too much of the content has been infantile, frankly.

After coming across all this ("all this" being the book and the maelstrom is has spawned), I called up and watched Goldberg's talk and Q&A on CSPAN, and while he obviously misspoke a couple of times, and was, early on especially, clearly a bit nervous, he very clearly had done some significant amounts of research. (Whether it was "primary" or not I shall not begin to argue, there often being no clear line in the research of thought and theory as to where primary ends, secondary begins, and tertiary is first seen, and so forth. Everything you've ever heard or think you know about Socrates, for instance, is at best what someone else said about him, and generally is more like what someone once heard someone say about what they'd read that somebody else had written about him. In translation, of course.) Point being that Goldberg did, indeed, do at least a fair bit of homework on the subject. As much as Ledeen, say? I'd certainly wager not.

The appropriate question then, is the following: Is Goldberg adequately informed such that he may himself craft a useful thesis about the topic? It seems to me that the answer is yes. Has he developed something "novel and substantial"? Clearly, again, the answer must be yes. Is that novel and substantial work correct? Does it inform the subject in a useful way? Does it advance our thinking in the area? These are the matters of significant import when critiquing the work.

Attacking the author as "fat and lazy" is the tactic of one fearful and insecure. In order to dismiss his arguments with such a claim, one must be able to provide evidence that these criteria with which he should be convicted are (a) true and (b) relevant to the matter at hand. The first, regardless of its veracity, clearly is irrelevant, and the second seems at the least doubtful, thus shrinking the value of any opinion of those proponents of the "he's fat and lazy so we should ignore him" argument.

To some extent, I suspect that Goldberg intentionally went over the top with some of his claims. Woodrow Wilson as a "fascist dictator"? Well, no matter how hard I try, I can't see anyone finding that plausible. So, clearly, he loses points there. But did WW have some political tendencies, tactics, and strategies that fit well a fascist theme? That's a much different question, and the answer one on which reasonable people might disagree. That disagreement makes neither, by default, either fat, lazy, or an idiot, but can be used to move the discussion further along in trying to discern the bloodlines of political thought espoused by our leaders.

Once, many years ago, I found myself sitting in a basic-level American history class at a large university with a pretty good football team. I happened to be on friendly terms with a couple of the players, one of whom also happened to be in the class. We entered the room together the first day, and there ensued a natural congregation of large athletes and myself in a particular corner of the classroom, an arrangement that persisted, as classroom seating arrangements mysteriously do.

Come the first exam, of the essay variety, I received a grade significantly lower than I expected, and so approached the professor, who admitted that one of his grad students had done much of the grading. On investigation, the conclusion was reached that since I sat with the jocks, I must therefore be one, and, well, expectations were then adjusted, etc., resulting in what was, we agreed, a substandard effort at grading my work. It gave me a strong appreciation for the ways in which perceptions based on the company one keeps may distinctly affect the ways in which one moves through society, and also for the "reverse discrimination" suffered occasionally by some of those big guys in the trenches. They often had to go above and beyond the usual levels of good performance to earn a good grade, at least until they had established a reputation for being the exception to the rule of the "dumb jock".

Whether it be Mussolini or Hitler, FDR or HRC, politicians move from camp to camp and caucus to caucus, seeking to acquire and augment power to achieve their own aims as they so move. Their own thoughts and goals evolve in response to what they see and hear around them, often without their realization that such changes are occurring. Thus the morphing of Mussolini from socialist to fascist becomes even more interesting. How much of the former did he retain as he branded himself the latter? In what ways did he play verbal games and pit one force over here (say, the Communists) against another over there (perhaps the Nazis, for whom Mussolini clearly had little love at first, and probably throughout the turbulent affair)?

When Mussolini, the self-proclaimed fascist, expressed praise for FDR and his actions, was it because he recognized a like soul, or was he merely seeking favor?

Henry Adams that since it was "in essence incoherent and immoral, history had either to be taught as such--or falsified." The messiness of history has not improved over the years.

Now I depart the field, leaving I hope some willing to wrestle about in the muck looking for slippery bits of truth.

Now I depart the field

The thing I'll miss most is the credulity:

To some extent, I suspect that Goldberg intentionally went over the top with some of his claims.

All of this chatter, yet none have been capable of refuting Goldberg’s assertion that Liberal Fascism is real. Instead, these liberals devolve to their base instinct and resort to personal attacks thereby validating Goldberg’s assertion. Chalk it up to infantile jealousy of lower beings.

Goldberg's incoherence can mean one thing only:

AMERICA'S PRIVATE SCHOOLS ARE FAILING.

THEY NEED TO BE TAKEN OVER AND MADE INTO PUBLIC SCHOOLS THAT USE DATA-BASED, NCLB METHODS.


There truly is a crisis
in our Private schools today,
and America can ignore
this peril no longer!

Let's END private schooling forever!

Chalk it up to infantile jealousy of lower beings.

Why oh why couldn't I have come up with "The white male is the Jew of liberal fascism"?

That's a pretty good review. But I agree with those who claim the book didn't warrant any reviewing. Goldberg clearly hasn't the faintest sense of what the term fascism actually means. As others have pointed out, I'll point out again: http://thenonsequitur.com/?p=543

Wow, so far the comments are let's end private schooling forever, I don't like Goldberg because he has a sense of humor so he's not allowed to put forth research, and even if he puts forth research, it should ONLY be primary research as if he were a scientist or a PhD candidate.

Algore didn't do such a thing in An Inconvenient Truth; he wasn't disparaged for being a political tool - former VPOTUS; he wasn't questioned for mixing politics into science; and so far, noone on the left has stated that he lacks credibility though he overstated possible global warming effects by literally 20,000%.

Fascists. . .

Wow, so far the comments are let's end private schooling forever, I don't like Goldberg because he has a sense of humor so he's not allowed to put forth research, and even if he puts forth research, it should ONLY be primary research as if he were a scientist or a PhD candidate.

Ask Jonah what the claims for his book are:

It is a very serious, thoughtful, argument that has never been made in such detail or with such care.

You wrote

"I agree with Goldberg that that's a superficial line of argument that completely ignores the sociocultural roots of American conservatism and European fascism. But nobody with allegiances like that can seriously turn around, point at the other ideological camp, at start yelling "fascism" at the slightest whiff of collectivism."

There is a great deal more than "the slightest whiff of collectivism" on the left and the roots of that collectivism, the historical lineage, is as Goldberg depicts it.

After the Larry Summers affair, the Chagnon affair, the Duke university rape case, and the lionheart charges, the left is in no position to laugh off charges of fascism.

After the Larry Summers affair, the Chagnon affair, the Duke university rape case, and the lionheart charges, the left is in no position to laugh off charges of fascism.

I have the gold extracted from Larry's teeth in a jar on my mantelpiece.


Comments closed January 29, 2008.

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