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Durbin Versus Clinton

13 Jan 2008 11:22 am

Via Matt Stoller, Dick Durbin smacks Bill Clinton around a bit:

It was not easy to be against that war back when we cast that vote in October of 2002. I was one of 23 who voted against the war. Barack was supportive - one of the few candidates speaking out strongly against it in Illinois. If President Clinton had opposed that war as strongly as Barack Obama at the time, it would have helped a lot of us who had voted against authorizing an invasion.

Every time I criticize a war supporter's past support for the war, someone comes along and chimes in with "well didn't you support the war?" And, of course, I did -- it was a big mistake. Be that as it may, there's an objective difference between the status of an important political leader and that of a college senior. In other words, I supported the war in part because Bill Clinton and people like him were supporting the war. As Durbin is indicating here, had anti-war Senators like himself, Carl Levin, Nancy Pelosi and Russ Feingold had more backing from high-profile national leaders they might have had more success.

But Bill and Hillary Clinton were for the war. Tom Daschle and Dick Gephardt were for the war. Madeleine Albright and Richard Holbrooke were for the war. I remember sitting around the dorm feeling smarter and better-informed than my anti-war friends and smugly noting all this: Sure, you may not trust Bush but look at all these good Democrats, I would say. Needless to say, in retrospect that looks like a very foolish argument to have been making. It was naive to trust those people. But a lot of people did trust them. Every blog commenter and emailer on the internet now claims to have been 100 percent prescient about the war, but if you look back at the polling you'll see that lots of Democrats, like me, followed the party's leadership in giving Bush the benefit of the doubt and wound up burned by it.

I think it's valid to say that other considerations might outweigh this one, but I have to say that it really rankles that the Clintons seem unwilling to even acknowledge what happened -- that there was a debate and they took one side of it, and other politicians took the other side -- and take responsibility for it.

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Comments (87)

That is fine and true but what you, Durbin and Stoller choose to ignore is that Obama's record on Iraq AFTER 2002 is less than stellar.

Absolutely thatmoment in time goes strongly for
Obama but he has failed to lead on Iraq since then.

Durbin is one of the smartest senators. He and Obama are good for IL. He would be better leader than Reid. Dodd would be the best.

But, Durbin is in trouble now. No one goes after Clintons. Expect some flak to Durbin. Expect Durbin to make a TV circuit clarifying his comments. No one can touch the Clintons.

Resistance is Futile. Get on the Clinton Train to the White House.

"I supported the war in part because Bill Clinton and people like him were supporting the war."

That is really sad.

I think it's valid to say that other considerations might outweigh this one, but I have to say that it really rankles that the Clintons seem unwilling to even acknowledge what happened

No, what really rankles is that Hillary still thinks it was the right vote at the time. She can't admit a mistake, no matter what. Who does that remind you of?

Eorse, Thank for your comments on Durbin and Obama. Yes, they make us very proud here in Illinois. We feel very lucky to have had the opportunity to have both for our senators.

I have yet to hear a Clinton admit to any mistake. Like Bush, they feel they are above mistakes. So they blame everyone else and point fingers and make up history.

I never looked to the leaders to tell me if it was good to go to war. What I do remember was the lump in my stomach when Bush began to mention Iraq and thinking 'what have they got to do with 9-11? the terrorists were out of afganastan'

i read this before the war and was thus against it:

http://www.fpif.org/fpiftxt/435


i think we should make up our minds based on research and thought, not media driven mainstream ideas.

"In other words, I supported the war in part because Bill Clinton and people like him were supporting the war."

I opposed the war because it was just a really pig stupid idea. But then, I'm not a foot soldier in the phony "right vs. left" wars, so I didn't give a rat's a$$ about the positions taken by the various D.C. whores.

I find myself worrying that my emotional political life is more swayed by an US versus THEM sensibility than I would like. I am an Obama supporter now and have been steadily moving in that direction for some time. When Bill came out swinging at Obama in New Hampshire I found myself feeling quite angry with him. His (and some of Hillary's) attacks about Obama and Iraq, and Obama's qualifications in general, felt personal, misleading and destructive for the Democratic party. Is that an objective stance on my part or me just switching from one camp in the party to another? I'd like to think it's the former... I'm curious how others feel about Bill's involvement in New Hampshire. Did it appear as toxic as it did to me?

I have yet to hear a Clinton admit to any mistake.

"I think that both the process and the plan were flawed. We were trying to do something that was very hard to do, and we made a lot of mistakes."--Hillary Clinton on her 1993 health care plan, quoted in The New York Times, June 10, 2006

MY:
Pelosi is not a Senator. Was she even House Minority Leader at the time?

it is toxic, in the sense that it is selfishly driven and not altruistic or based on what would be best for our country. At this point Clinton is all about legacy. I think the American memory is drifting slowly and surely away from Iraq - content with minimal death and enormous loss of cash that is invisible and only accrues as some enormous debt number. on foreign policy barack was more prescient and thus the clinton(s) need to tear him down in any fashion they can muster so as to hide that fact.

And what about your idiotic support for the war in Afghanistan? That continues apparently to this day?

Let me guess, U.S. imperialism was going to effect nothing but wonderful outcomes if we just had good, smart Democratic politicians in charge.

It wasn't obvious when we were about to attack Afghanistan that A) justice would not be served, for 9/11, and B) Afghanistan would turn back into a chaotic and violent shithole for the next decade or two upon invasion.

I must be clairvoyant!--How could I have foreseen any of that!?

Pollack had a huge impact.

That book had a tremendous influence on the centrist folks in my neck of the woods.

I've checked archives of where I was active online to make sure I'm not kidding myself. Against the war the whole way. Very dubious on the WMD argument. Very impressed by Powell's presentation at the UN. But absolutely against this mess after the UN inspectors' report, which made it very clear that Iraq was no threat to the US or the region, and, very very clear that there were no nukes there.

exactly. why would we expect any good to come from military interventions when all historical precedents point in the exact opposite direction. this is truly a lack of historical perspective at it's most blatant and obvious.

Hugh, you are not alone. This is the toughest moment for progressive Americans.

My fear is that Clintons will seriously hurt Obama, not for 2008 but in his future attempts. They will make him not fit for any national office, other than remain in the senate.

Remember: I say this to all.

The GOP machine is nothing compared to Clinton Attack Machine. When HRC first joined Senate, she asked Reid if she could have a war room to respond to GOP. These Clintons are on offensive from day one. Everything is staged.

Here is the full quote of her MLK. NYT and Russert did not address it. HRC already has the Press in her bag - thanks to the tears in NH.

I feel sorry not only for our country but mostly for the Obama family. Clintons are about to get them. And, there is no umpire. The press is taking a nap.

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/horsesmouth/2008/01/new_york_times_11.php

From the NewsMax.com Staff
For the story behind the story...
Tuesday, Nov. 29, 2005 7:55 p.m. EST

Hillary Clinton: Iraq War Vote a Mistake

For the first time since she voted to authorize the Iraq war three years ago, 2008 presidential candidate Hillary Clinton is now saying that vote was a mistake - in an apparent move to pacify growing dissatisfaction with her position among the Democratic Party's left-wing base.

"If Congress had been asked [to authorize the war], based on what we know now, we never would have agreed," Clinton said, in an email sent to her supporters on Tuesday.

While saying she took full responsibility for her error, Clinton repeatedly insisted that she had been misled by "false" intelligence on Iraq's weapons of mass destruction presented by the Bush administration.

Citing "assurances they gave that they would first seek to resolve the issue of weapons of mass destruction peacefully through United Nations sponsored inspections," Clinton lamented: "Their assurances turned out to be empty ones."

1) What really happened in 2002 was NOT a debate -- it was a faction within the Democratic Pary betraying the people of this country for the sake of huge campaign donations from billionaire supporters of Israel.

People who CONTINUE to betray this country in order to suck up to wealthy men like Haim Saban and S Daniel Abraham and Rupert Murdoch.

2) People who will send our children to die in IRAN --because Iran is a threat to Israel -- just as soon as they con us into voting them into office.

3) How do you think someone like Bill Clinton --with his sex scandals and other negatives -- vaulted over men of substance like Medal of Honor winner Bob Kerrey and AL Gore in the 1992 primaries?

4) When Hillary was crying in New Hampshire at the thought of losing the primary, why did no one ask her why she doesnt't cry for the 3800 American soldiers she has sent to their deaths -- and for the thousands more who will be crippled for life by ghastly wounds?

5) She had the power as Senator to examine the intelligence -- to DEMAND that Nancy Pelosi and Bob Grahams questions be addressed. And she turned aside.

And now she thinks she's worthy to be President?

Am I imagining things or what,because does it seem to anyone that the democratic primary seems to be nastier than usual?

I can claim being 100% correct before the war. I listened to this speech by a skinny kid with a funny name and then basically plagiarized his whole speech in an opinion article in my college newspaper. I've got it down on paper (and an article about an anti-war protest I threw on campus) so I can claim being right.

But it was folks like Al Gore and Barack Obama speaking out that made me confident enough to do that. I knew I couldn't easily be dismissed by others as some crazy hippie -- those folks standing up made it easier for me to do so.

Neither Bill Clinton nor Hillary Clinton stood up to a damn thing. And they're not doing it now. I wear seriously rose-tinted glasses when examining Obama, but I never believed that Hillary and Bill could do so much to ruin their reputation in my mind. I now look back at the 90s and I'm not sure what Bill did that was so great. I wish I had been paying more attention (alas, high school and girls won out then).

I remember seeing Bill Clinton (I believe on Letterman) making the 'reluctant' case for invasion and being disgusted, not persuaded. It was obvious even then that he (they) was (were) thinking of future political viability, not right and wrong.

And I remember Al Gore being against the war and being mocked by Howard Fineman as (something like) America's embarrassing uncle spouting crackpot theories at the family reunion.

What really bothers me is when the Clintons and other war supporters try to diminish the importance of that vote. Today on MTP, Hillary tried to pretend the vote was one for diplomacy and we would have gone to war anyway. She and her supporters treat it like any other war vote. They point out how she and Obama voted the same when it came to the war every time after that. What they ignore is that the IWR was the single biggest vote any of them has had to make.

Hillary herself acknowledged this at the time of the vote:
"This is a very difficult vote. This is probably the hardest decision I have ever had to make -- any vote that may lead to war should be hard -- but I cast it with conviction."

For her to now pretend that the vote was inconsequential is insulting.

It's looking more and more like the democratic party "will get fooled again" by making Hillary Clinton our candidate. How do we keep doing this to ourselves? Obama or Edwards offer a look to the future.

Her appearance on MTP this morning made it clear to me that she doesn't think the vote was a mistake.

Well, that is a sad picture of you, Matt, getting smug about what the Dem leadership was saying. By this time we'd already seen the Dem leadership help Bush piss away the surplus and help make good and sure that it was going to the rich. And in 2002 I was not only opposed to the war as the dumbest thing ever, but it was quite clear that the Dems, by not making opposition to the war an issue, had wandered into a huge trap - I remember the rage at the sheer idiocy of Daschle, after the votes in Congress authorized the invasion (which was clear at the time, no matter how much Clinton now denies it) acting as if it were some flyspeck that had to be gotten out of the way so we could talk about the Economy. Could there have been a stupider strategy? It is rare, in public life, to see someone challenge Bush for dumbest guy in the public eye, but Daschle was up to the challenge! There have been few high points in the last seven years, but one of them had to be Daschle's defeat in South Dakota, freeing the Democratic party from Mr. Potato Head. (Although then they elected Mr. Casino, aka Mr. "I don't know how to pull a filibuster, but I do know how to make sure hedgefunders aren't taxed too much").

Anyway, I'm glad your analytic talents have grown by leaps and bounds since you graduated Harvard, Matt. Obviously, that place was not good for you.

what happened with the clintons was really extremely simple.
they made the political calculation that it would better serve their interests if they did not oppose the war.
they were thinking of future political viability. plain and simple.
the fact that she would make such a naked political choice on a matter of life and death is very disturbing. of course, politicians do that all of the time, but i try to avoid supporting politicians who make those kind of calculated choices with people's lives.
and if anyone was stupid - yes, stupid! - enough to simply go along with the war fever of 2002-2003, largely because our politicians made those cowardly political choices, well...

Blaming your support for the Iraq invasion on following Clinton's lead is perhaps the most disingenuous and childish thing I have ever heard from a adult. Then again, most of what you want from your leaders and your government is to take the responsibility for your life anyways, so I guess nobody should be surprised by the outburst.

And what about your idiotic support for the war in Afghanistan? That continues apparently to this day?

Let me guess, U.S. imperialism was going to effect nothing but wonderful outcomes if we just had good, smart Democratic politicians in charge.

It wasn't obvious when we were about to attack Afghanistan that A) justice would not be served, for 9/11, and B) Afghanistan would turn back into a chaotic and violent shithole for the next decade or two upon invasion.

I must be clairvoyant!--How could I have foreseen any of that!?


Posted by Murph | January 13, 2008 11:57 AM

Nothing personal, Murph, but that is about as dumb a thing as I've seen written in a long time. "Afghanistan would turn back into a chaotic shithole"? This implies it was not already exactly that under the rule of the Taliban. Maybe you are a strong Taliban supporter. I don't know.

In addition, Afghanistan is the country from which the 9/11 attackers came. They trained there, received their orders from there and were sheltered by the Taliban government there.

I guess you think America should have had no response to over 3,000 of her citizens being slaughtered? Perhaps a strongly worded letter is what was called for. It seems there might not be anything you can't blame on "U.S. imperialism".

I don't think you are clairvoyant.

Al Gore - chopped liver

Nonsense, I knew Bush would bungle whatever came along and I was a sophomore. At a community college. The Dems were obviously trying to protect themselves politically, not promote a war they agreed on in principle.

Let's assume that you have your facts correct, then the more interesting question is what is the significance of a single vote reflects on the policy, character and even judgment of an individual?

I believe not that much provided that the other votes of the individual are decent and acceptable. In other words, Obama made a lot of hay of of comparing Iraqi apples and oranges. First he made tons of hay by him being against the war and Hillary voting for it. Second, no one I have read made a point that Obama wasn't a senator at the time of the vote. Meaning that, he wasn't a part of the same context, pressure, community and place. Actually, we know extremely well that Obama's and Hillary's vote records in the Senate are almost identical.

In summary, it's a single vote and the comparison isn't valid.

Well, at least Yglesias came clean about the "assumptions" behind his "reasoning". And he's correct about the moral results of Democratic "leadership": These weasels cut the legs out from under sensible, sane anti-war people. Yglesias was hardly alone in trusting our "liberal" betters.

Something's missing, though: Why did our Dem "leaders" sign on for the Iraq war crime? One reason only: Short-sighted cowardice. There was never one single principle in play for Dems like HRC or Tom "Weasel" Daschle or, in my neighborhood, Al Wynn. They were afraid that Bush the Lesser's war might be as much of a box-office hit as the old man's, and they didn't want to risk a moment's unpopularity. This is how the Democratic Party works. Face it. FDR was an anomaly.

So it's a little disconcerting to see folks righteously (and correctly) blast the blatant opportunism and self-seeking of the Clintons, and then without skipping a beat, make big goo-goo eyes in Obama's direction. Lefties and progressives who've been buggered by the Democratic Party for years now are hiking up their skirts for a guy who's just doing an encore of the old JFK glamor hustle. I don't think Obama's horrible in the same way that the Clintons or JFK were, I just think there's no there there, and lefties are setting themselves up for another crushing disappointment.

Obama is talking tax populist talk in Las Vegas right now, they just showed a bit of it on CNN live. Interestingly, he said in a defensive manner (i.e., as if someone accused him) that he hasn't just now started addressing the issue now, that he's had his position out there all along.

Koshembos,
That's a good point, though the fact that H Clinton endorsed the war and doesn't admit she was wrong to do so leaves her open to all kinds of political and psychological pressure not to turn as fully and rapidly against the war as MY (and I) would like. Obama simply doesn't have that baggage, it's in no way his war (more than any other American's anyway).

I think Durbin is correct here. Bill Clinton spent the most part of the Bush disaster defending the idiot's decisions, and being the affable partner for the senior Bush (despite Iraq, Katrina, tax cuts for Bush's wealthy patrons and supporters, zero criticism of Guantanamo, Abu Gharaib, secret renditions, ...) all this while Gore, Carter and other LEADERS spoke out. However, in all fairness, (although Obama did speak out against the war itself) in the early years of the Iraq occupation, Obama was somewhat quiet too.

It's important not to exaggerate the numbers. Leading up to America's invasion of Iraq, only around half of Americans and one-tenth of the rest of the world thought it was a good idea. International opposition to the idea was vehement. Aggressive "preventive" war is illegal. No one needed to analyze whether this particular aggressive war was a good idea - no one needs to analyze whether a particular rape or murder is a good idea. Some politicans and pundits, like Bush and say Kristol, really don't care about America's laws and international treaties; but I think most politicans and pundits did care at least a little but were just too cowardly to oppose a popular wartime president.

Interesting, Matt, and truly illuminating. So I finally get that your animus about the war vote in October 2002 is rooted in resentment that the Clintons led YOU to support the invasion, and in disappointment in yourself for "following" them. But I tell you, as someone who NEVER supported the invasion, I totally understood why a lot of Dems voted for authorization; to do otherwise was to strip Bush of all diplomatic leverage at a time when we still didn't have weapons inspectors on the ground in Iraq or any other way of dealing with the situation. Add to that Dick "Crackhead" Cheney's clear belief that the President did not NEED Congressional authorization to invade Iraq, and you have a scenario where a successful vote to deny Bush authorization in October could quite conceiveably be construed as a vote to force Bush into bombing Baghdad or creating some more complicated provocation for war--precisely because he would have had no other way of pursuing brinksmanship against Saddam. Really--your resentment toward the Clintons for this has clouded your judgment of this complex moment in American foreign affairs. Think about it, tactically and strategically (in terms of American politics and foreign policy). There was no slam-dunk answer to the demand for a vote. But those who chose to vote NO now clearly have bragging rights--and justifiably so. I'm just saying that those who voted YES weren't just blindly following the March to Folly.

Let's get some facts on the table.

1. Hillary Clinton supported the invasion of Iraq in 2002.

2. Barack Obama was clearly opposed to the invasion of Iraq in 2002.

One of these positions was right, the other was wrong. The voting records from 2004-present don't offer any illumination on these facts.

3. The United States was not only morally justified, but morally obligated to invade Afghanistan in 2001-2. Militant factions of that region planned, implemented and deployed successfully a large-scale attack on the sovereign territory of the United States in 2001. Not to defend against that attack would be morally and practically unthinkable.

4. Anyone who thinks invading Afghanistan was a mistake or problem begs the question of their own ability to view the world rationally.

5. Yes, this is somewhat of an attack on "Murph."

Delurking here . . . I think we all need to remember how toxic the environment was at the time of the vote, as well as the timing of the vote. (Note: I did a quick Wiki search to make sure I remembered correctly.)

The vote was held in October 2002 right before the mid-term elections. Bush, the Republicans, the right-wing pundits along with many of our pundits as well - I'm thinking of MY, among others, were all making an argument for it.

The resolution required Bush to present the case to the UN and get approval from the UN Security Council. and if they didn't approve, come back to Congress for approval. PLUS it included authorization to fight "terrorists" - there were very few at that time were willing to take the political heat for a No vote (and most of them were from very safe states or districts).

I was against the Iraq War from the beginning (like many of the commenters above), but I think the vote needs to be seen in the context of the times - I clearly remember peoople saying you were either with Bush and the US or you were a traitor giving aid and comfort to the enemy.

I can see where Obama could come out against it - and he deserve praise for being right. That said, the fact is that he didn't have to vote on record against it.

This is not to excuse the people voting Yes (there was a clear majority of Democrats voting against it) but it is just to point out that the rhetoric was pretty intense at the time.

I will support the Democratic candidate for president, whoever it turns out to be, and I would like for them to come through the primary as unscathed as possible so they have a chance to win in November. The Republicans will be attacking them, regardless of who it is. Let's not give the Republican any more talking points than they already have.

This is just my two cents but I'm getting really tired of the circular firing squad. I'll go back to lurking now.

elle loco -- that's some amazing, multiple flip spin. The vote was not complicated - it was a vote for war. Period. And the reason most Dems voted for it had nothing to do with it being complex or nuanced. Quite simply, they were either afraid of being label "soft on terror" right at the time of the 2002 election or they were planning ahead to how a No vote would play during a presidential campaign (looking at you Kerry, Hillary and Edwards).

mattsmom -- that's right, it was a difficult time for Dems. And instead of leading and standing up for the right action, which was letting the inspectors continue in Iraq and focus the majority of our efforts in Afghanistan, most of the Dems in Congress caved to fear around the election (one in which they were pummeled anyway) and to Bush's outrageous rhetoric.

of course the vote on the war was extraordinarily tough.
yes, the political climate was toxic.
of course, bush tried to demagogue the issue as best he could.
that is exactly why the vote was a real test of political courage.
those who capitualated and marched along with the rest of the lemmings are now correctly reviled for being cowards.
the people who voted against the war, the people who spoke out against the war, despite the fact that they knew they would face incredibly vitriolic condemnation, those people rightfully deserve credit.

I totally understood why a lot of Dems voted for authorization; to do otherwise was to strip Bush of all diplomatic leverage at a time when we still didn't have weapons inspectors on the ground in Iraq or any other way of dealing with the situation.

Bullshit.

Diplomatic leverage? Leverage to do what? Listen to yourself. What diplomatic objective was served by this vote? Leverage to make Iraq give up its phantom WMD? Leverage to accept weapons inspectors? The UN weapons inspectors under Hans Blix were yanked out of Iraq on the eve of the war after reporting no WMD. There wasn't any diplomacy happening in 2002 and early 2003, at least no diplomacy happening on the US side.

The fact is the vote to authorize the use of force was tantamount to a vote for war. Any objective analyst could see that. Think about it. Once Bush had 150,000 troops deployed on Iraq's borders in early 2003, what was the end game? Were they going to sit there and rot for 10 years as a deterrent force? Were they going to pack up and go home after some symbolic gesture by Iraq? Of course not. Even back in early 2003 the troops were smarter than that. They knew the only road home lead through Baghdad.

In many respects, the 2003 American mobilization in the middle east was exactly like the military mobilizations that lead to the start of WW-I. Any first year student of diplomatic history knows that mobilization meant war in 1914. Just as any objective observer should have known that mobilization meant war in 2003.

The reason the Clintons and many other Dems voted for war in 2002 was cowardice pure and and simple. Go watch "Shut up and Sing" --the Dixie Chicks documentary for a refresher on the atmosphere surrounding the war. They were cowards pure and simple.

Williams - People who will send our children to die in IRAN --because Iran is a threat to Israel -- just as soon as they con us into voting them into office.

As a Vet, I am unaware of ever serving alongside or commanding children. My enlisted guys were for the most part commendable young adults, rarely acting as childrem. Nor do the present ones much appreciate the efforts of anti-war groups to infantilize them into unprofessiona, poorly-behaved victims

Williams - How do you think someone like Bill Clinton --with his sex scandals and other negatives -- vaulted over men of substance like Medal of Honor winner Bob Kerrey and AL Gore in the 1992 primaries?

Because Bill Clinton was a political natural and a Centrist Democrat from the South, perhaps? Kerrey, Tsongas, and Jerry Brown had no chance. Noble Algore didn't even run.

Williams - When Hillary was crying in New Hampshire at the thought of losing the primary, why did no one ask her why she doesnt't cry for the 3800 American soldiers she has sent to their deaths -- and for the thousands more who will be crippled for life by ghastly wounds?

Why should she?
War sucks. People suffer and die when politics and diplomacy fail to resolve critical differences between states. Happens all the time. You feel sorrow, but Washington, Lincoln, Wilson, FDR, Truman, JFK, LBJ, Nixon, Bush II didn't waste much time crying over what had to be done or what had to be done when they inherited someone else's war. 2.4 million people die every year in America. 100,000 suffer permanent crippling injuries. Many deaths and maimings tragically and too early. At least soldiers who don't beat the risks they volunteered for go knowing they did more with their lives than most Americans do.
The military is risky. Even in peacetime. Jimmy Carter lost more soldiers each year than Dubya has. I don't recall any Lefties demanding others weep for the dead Carter-era soldiers. Lefties detest and almost gleefully look forward to see large body counts because they imagine they can capitalize off of US soldiers death dead bodies and coffin photo ops to gain Lefties more power and moral authority.
You feel the same sorrow and regret pulling dead and maimed bodies out of a helo practicing inherently unsafe low-level night flying because the mission demands we train that way - as you do pulling bodies out of a tank the Hajis blew up.

In the Gulf War, my command lost no one. But we lost a dozen the year before in accidents, 8 the year after the Gulf War. Never saw a weeping Lefty demanding to be photographed hugging their coffins for a little agitprop theater.

I feel bad about the 95,000 deaths from medical "misadventures" in the USA. Hope we can reduce that. Or the painful and tragic 400,000 cancer deaths. Or the 80,000 dead and maimed in car crashes each year. No normal American feels compelled, not should they to weep for each death each year (all 2.4 million). It's hard enough to mourn the people you knew personally.

Nor will Presidents ever be perfect. I condemn Bush II for his postwar mistakes while knowing that mistakes of Lincoln or FDR or Truman or LBJ in war cost more soldiers lives in a month than Bush's have over 6 years. Or the failure of Jimmy Carter to modernize the military as Reagan finally did caused huge piles of dead GIs.

Williams - She had the power as Senator to examine the intelligence -- to DEMAND that Nancy Pelosi and Bob Grahams questions be addressed. And she turned aside.

If she had read it, she would have just seen a product that the intel people of 20 other countries also got wrong that concluded Saddam had WMD and was still a threat regardless of WMD. Seasoned members of Congress with combat experience and CIA service (Duncan Hunter, Porter Goss, Rob Simmons) read the full file and voted for the War.

And now she thinks she's worthy to be President?

Yes she does, and the voters of NH agreed.

***********************


I totally understood why a lot of Dems voted for authorization; to do otherwise was to strip Bush of all diplomatic leverage at a time when we still didn't have weapons inspectors on the ground in Iraq or any other way of dealing with the situation.

Come again? What the AUMF did was allow Bush to go the UN present them with two options:

1. Rubber stamp a war that no one in the world save the US wanted.

2. Say no, and have the US go to war anyway heedless of what the UN says.

That's your diplomatic leverage? Either way the Security Council emerges humiliated and discredited. That anyone with a shred of respect for the international law or the UN could advocate this position is absurd. The Democrats voting for the AUMF was crass political opportunism at its most appalling. Apologies not accepted.

The vote in 2002 was not necessary, in Bush/Cheney's mind, to go to war. They more or less said so at the time, and certainly, their theory of executive warmaking power would have allowed them to go to war despite Congressional disapproval.
The 2002 vote was a political maneuver designed to SPLIT THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY on the war they were planning to fight anyway. By coopting some Democrats into supporting the resolution by framing it as making more credible their threat of force, they ensured (1) the Dems would be split and could be counted on to have precisely this argument for decades and (2) the issue of Iraq would not be a partisan issue in future elections.

Their strategy worked.

Instead of magnifying the differences between Democrats about the 2002 vote (the US would have invaded Iraq if Hillary Clinton, John Kerry and John Edwards had immolated themselves on the Senate floor), we need to make clear that EVERY Republican, (except Ron Paul), supports a permanent US occupation of Iraq and that EVERY Democrat running is in favor of a rapid withdrawal of US troops from Iraq.


Matt,

A more revealing post that would have either supported your contention...or not would be to review the two senators war support votes SINCE Obama took office...all of them...and for good measure let's toss in security bills as well.

They have two years where they have been faced with the EXACT SAME set of choices, from EXACTLY the same position. Why not compare and contrast...without omitting votes that are not favorable to your prefered client?

Nothing like a few cold, hard facts to clear up speculation...no?

This helpful suggestion brought to you by an American citizen who enjoys using factual data to decide.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

The Clintons don't seem to be reality-based. The record is pretty clear. They're treating us like we're stupid. I believe Tom in Ma is right on the politics. Some Democrats (Edwards!) figured the war would go ahead anyways so they voted for it not wanting to be painted as soft on terror or unpatriotic (support the President in war time and all that).

Lorrie Moore articulates my thoughts on Obama vs. Hillary. I love the contrast between the pitch black themes and tone of her fiction writing and the sunny vision of change of the Obama campaign.

"I never looked to the leaders to tell me if it was good to go to war. What I do remember was the lump in my stomach when Bush began to mention Iraq and thinking 'what have they got to do with 9-11? the terrorists were out of afganastan'"

Bin Laden was out of Saudi Arabia which borders Iraq. His number two was out of Egypt which is right there too. The planner of 911 - KSM - was from Kuwait. The Middle East is a mess because it was a Cold War front with lots of oil, plus Israel's occupation of Palestinian land.

Iraq is the keystone state, in between Saudia Arabia and Iran. (Under Saddam it had the worst behaviour in the region too). It was the Saudis' bulwark against revolutionary Iran, but now that it's more democratic, it's leaning towards Iran. (Think the Saudis like seeing parlimentary democracy next door? At least they're not talking about wiping Israel off the map.) The whole region needs to change so that it doesn't churn out extremists. Iraq was one part of Bush's effort at democracy promotion - however ineffectual - his trip to the Middle East to disscuss the Israeli-Palestinian conflict - however ineffectual - another. Some anti-war people seem really ignorant of the facts beyond our shores.

This will not go well with the antiwar crowd. But can we at least admit that the case against the war in 2002 wasn't the slam dunk it later became?
It seems to me that reasonable people could disagree about whether it was right to go to war. Heck, I was pro war myself until early 2003.
I think that its OK for HRC to say I was mistaken and misled about the war, without having to publicly grovel- which seems to me what the hard core antiwar crowd wants.
in the meantime, neither Bo or HRc has really presented a detailed plan as to the way out-which is what really counts now.

Everyone needs to be real clear on why Hillary won't admit making a mistake on the war resolution vote - it's because she doesn't think it was a mistake. Let that sink in for a minute. Now compare it with Obama's "less than stellar" post-2002 record on the war. Puts things in perspective, doesn't it.

I remember sitting around the dorm feeling smarter and better-informed than my anti-war friends and smugly noting all this:

In 2002, I was in the same situation in reverse. Imagine, during your last year of undergrad, the difficulty in trying to explain to your College Republican friends that you think attacking a filthy, narcissistic, possibly Qaeda-connected (which I found illogical) wretch like Saddam Hussein is a bad idea.

Now imagine the only other people who seem to agree with you are professors (usually the self-described communists) and those annoying, smelly kids wearing Che Guevara shirts, staging Friday traffic-interruptions for the joint causes of Preventing War in Iraq and Freeing Mumya. It was quite annoying.

Interestingly enough, the only time I did get any fellow Repubs to even consider my position was when I pointed out that Hillary seemed more enthusiastic than Bush.

I just have to add to an above quote:

"Why did our Dem [BLOGGERS sign on for the Iraq war crime? One reason only: Short-sighted cowardice. There was never one single principle in play for

[BLOGGERS LIKE...

...JOSH MARSHALL, MATT YGLESIAS, EZRA, KEVIN DRUM,JUAN COLE...ET.AL to be Bushes's doormat.]

They were afraid that Bush the Lesser's war might be as much of a box-office hit as the old man's, and they didn't want to risk a moment's unpopularity."

Haha. "HRC's judgment was backed up by Duncan Hunter!" That's just great.

S. Brennan:

"They have two years where they have been faced with the EXACT SAME set of choices, from EXACTLY the same position. Why not compare and contrast...without omitting votes that are not favorable to your prefered client?"

Haven't they all voted the same way the past two years? It's different with troops in the field.

Durbin, the Democrats' number 2 in the Senate is exactly right. My favorite is when people write in ALL CAPS and are completely wrong.

"In summary, it's a single vote and the comparison isn't valid."

This is the single most important decision of the decade. Clinton supported the war, Obama didn't. Obama predicted exactly the situation we are now in. It's a valid comparison.

HRC still doesn't think she did anything wrong. Notice how saying she would've "voted differently, knowing what she knows now," is not an admission of a mistake. Plenty of evidence was available to her. The NIE, the opinions of courageous senators like Durbin among them. That Obama saw through all the media bullshit, GWB, and the lies being presented by Colin Powell on television showed outstanding judgment. Hillary thought supporting the war was a good military move. From that vote and her refusal to apologize for it, I have refused to even consider her as our president. I'm glad team Obama is starting to nail her on this.

I don't mean to pile on here, but it does seem downright silly for someone - even a college senior - to have supported the war because Bill Clinton did. First of all, as a philosophy major, you should be familiar with the appeal to authority fallacy. Second, if you're going to appeal to an authority, why on Earth would it be Bill Clinton? His presidency was a mixed bag at best, and even if you generally supported him, he's really the last political figure one would ascribe infallibility to.

It's really disturbing that college students - who are supposed to be sowing their radical oats - would support an unprovoked, illegal invasion of another country simply because some Democratic Party establishment figures supported it.

I would really be interested in hearing more about why Bill Clinton's judgment was so persuasive to you.

Best. Cop-out. Evar.

Re Chris Ford's comment "As a Vet, I am unaware of ever serving alongside or commanding children. My enlisted guys were for the most part commendable young adults, rarely acting as childrem. Nor do the present ones much appreciate the efforts of anti-war groups to infantilize them into unprofessiona, poorly-behaved victims"
-----------
1) During the Vietnam war circa 1967, an older friend of mine, Larry Sayers, was drafted, sent to Vietnam, and killed. I still remember his funeral and the heavy sobbing of one of his female relatives --him mother, I believe.

Another local guy, Tommy Daniels, returned from Vietnam in a deep depression, wouldn't talk with anyone, and blew his brains out a few months later.

So you can go fuck yourself, Chris.

Those young men signed up to defend their country, not to seize oil deposits and defend Israel. They are young -- and don't realize what deceitful, lying shitheads some of their elders are. I do.

The National Guard troops signed up to be reserves -- to defend this country if it was seriously threatened. Not to have their patriotism exploited by corrupt liars.

Found Saddam Hussein's nukes yet, Chris?

2) My 18 year son recently had to register for the draft. If he is sent over to the Middle East and killed based on a lie, the cocksuckers I will feel inclined to kill in revenge are not Al Qaeda.

Re Chris Ford's comment "If she had read it, she would have just seen a product that the intel people of 20 other countries also got wrong that concluded Saddam had WMD and was still a threat regardless of WMD. "
------------
Gee, that wasn't the way Germany's Foreign Minister, Joschka Fischer, remembers it , Chris.

Fischer tried to warn US citizens in 2002 that the Intel case for IRaq WMDs was not all that strong. At which time, your ideological soul mate -- Michael Kelly of The Atlantic -- ran a very nasty column in the Washington Post arguing that Fischer had not been all that far from being a terrorist himself, in his youth.

In the classic Neocon style, Kelly carefully avoided addressing Fischer's criticism of Bush's case and just focused on the ad hominems. See
http://www.postwritersgroup.com/archives/kell0211.htm

Kelly's ass was later blown to hell in Iraq -- one American death for which my grief is ..er .. limited.

But you do have a partial point,Chris. Some countries WERE convinced. I remember all those representatives from Ariel Sharon telling us that Saddam was making WMDs and that we had to take 66 year old Saddam out RIGHT NOW.

I also remember some other countries making that case -- countries either deeply dependent upon the favor of the US Government or countries receiving various favors.

I don't mean to pile on here, but it does seem downright silly for someone - even a college senior - to have supported the war because Bill Clinton did.

Jason--I think Matt admitted that this was a mistake, and in any case, he isn't saying that he supported the war because of bill clinton, but, "in part because of..." In other words, he is saying that, like many people, he took some of his cues from leading experts--in this case, prominent democratic politicians--which we all do, to some degree or another. And more importantly than Matt's support, I think the Clintons' support of the war in 2002-3 influenced tons of casual political observers who don't really have the time, energy or inclination to pay attention closely enough to make thoughtful conclusions about every political issue, but who also are not wholly indifferent to international affairs.

Re mattsmom's comment "Let's not give the Republican any more talking points than they already have.

This is just my two cents but I'm getting really tired of the circular firing squad"
------------
What I'm getting tired of is the faction that claims to be Democrat --but which has a history of shooting the Democratic Party in the back at opportune moments in order to advance their personal self-interest Or to excuse their personal irresponsibility.

Or do you think that the only people who have died in Iraq -- or been crippled for life -- are Republicans? That all of the wives/mothers/fathers/children of those soldiers are also Republicans?

So what we have is not a "circular firing squad " -- it's self defense. A suggestion that we should not make the leader of the backstabbers our nominee.

Re Peter K's comment "Iraq is the keystone state, in between Saudia Arabia and Iran ... It was the Saudis' bulwark against revolutionary Iran ...The whole region needs to change so that it doesn't churn out extremists. Iraq was one part of Bush's effort at democracy promotion - however ineffectual - his trip to the Middle East to disscuss the Israeli-Palestinian conflict - however ineffectual - another. Some anti-war people seem really ignorant of the facts beyond our shores."
----------
Oh, now I understand. The best way to dampen the rise of terrorists is to:

a) Use US military power to prop up a Saudi kleptocracy which allows US oil companies to steal the only asset the Saudi people have in exchange for a cut. While the Saudi people get nothing.

b)Give Ariel Sharon 50 F16s fighters. When Sharon bombs apartment buildings in Gaza and kills children, give him 52 more. Plus $3 Billion per year. Then claim you are for "peace".

c) Kill 600,000 Iraqi children with epidemics by bombing Iraqi water plants and then banning the import of water purification materials. Then invade the country and kill a few more hundred thousand. Then claim you are for "peace".

d) Overthrow the lawful government of Iran, impose a dictator on Iran for 35 years and then proclaim Iran is an enemy when they get rid of said dictator -- and kick out US oil companies.
Then claim you are for peace.

e) To pay for the above, run up $4 TRILLION in debt . Then claim you are a "fiscal conservative" and that you are "protecting America" from Bin Laden. Who is still running around loose.

2) A suggestion for Peter K.

The next time 3000 Americans die in an Al Qaeda revenge attack, be sure to ask "Why do they hate us?"

Its ironic there is always this candidate for change ever, election in 2000 remember it was bush so be carefull its a gamble we no what we get with clinton, and just to say i supported the war i regret its missmanagement but the inadmissable fact that thousands of shia and kurds were gased by the dicator we got rid of is a good enough of a reason to have gone in.

Clinton did an able job defending herself on Meet the Press today, and Obama's press release is off the mark. Nothing the Clintons have said and been attacked for in the past week is actually untrue or racist, although they obviously could have made the same points more thoughtfully.

"I supported the war in part because Bill Clinton and people like him were supporting the war."

That is really sad.


Yeah, Matthew. What were you - 7? A high school SENIOR should have known better. Suppose Bill Clinton had asked you to jump off the Brooklyn Bridge and on the way down shout "Eretz Israel, Forever!" - would you have done that?

I can claim a good deal of prescience about the war, wrote articles against it, demonstrated against it, etc. well before it started. Still it seems to me not that obvious that Clinton would get the next tough call wrong because she got the last one wrong. I'd feel better if Zbig were advising her and not Obama, but maybe he eventually will. I'd feel better if Matt played a big role on her staff. Maybe he will. Hillary is not a neocon, she's a Democrat politician, dependent on money (ahem) that is perhaps slightly more hawkish than she is. She saw what happened to pols who opposed the first war against Saddam. But she's not an idiot, or an ideologue, and nor are the people around her. Plus, she's beginning to look kind cute in my advanced middle age.

People here are being a bit soft on the Democrats in Congress who voted yes. Sure, some voted for war because of political cowardice, but some voted for war because they wanted the US to take over Iraq. I think both Clintons are in this later camp: If American Hegemony requires invading countries on false pretexts and seizing their oil, why not? Oil is a matter of national security, and the strong take what they can while the weak suffer what they must. Realpolitik demands it. The fact that waging aggressive war is a hanging crime under Nuremberg is irrelevant, because only the losers hang for war crimes. I'm not optimistic enough to think that the whole Democratic Establishment is actually opposed to American Empire.
In terms of actually supporting the war, I was dead set against it even though I was a dumb high-schooler. I'm a pacifist, so this isn't really any great credit to me, though. It was a shitty time, and it is hard to see the rest of the nation moving towards a war that you see is both evil and stupid. It's hard to realize that the entire mainstream media, the entire "acceptable" discourse, is full of shit and that lots of people, including people you respect, can be very wrong about very important things. I'll cut slack to guys who were young and naive, but congressmen should have, and did, know better.

Sam Hutcheson:

I supported the Afghanistan war. I opposed the Iraq war and occupation from the moment I saw it was the Bush/neocon fixed intention (and that was apparent six months before the actual invasion). I now feel my support for the war in Afghanistan was incorrect and mistaken. I had actually thought the overthrow of the Taliban could be replaced (justifiably in the case of Afghanistan) by a functionning state with an approximate democracy; I had not calculated on the venal, dishonest, corrupt prosecution of this effort by the Bush/neocon/far-right and I should have. Actions do not occur in vacuums; they are carried out by real people (in this case a criminal cabal) and support for the action is support for these thugs. Afghanistan, like Iraq, is yet another defeat for progressive ideals; we should know better; lending support for the Bush/neocons/far-right is a mistake in all circumstances.

I supported the war in part because Bill Clinton and people like him were supporting the war. ...

Tetlock released a book a while ago, that I'm sure you're aware of, that empirically, expert judgement is basically just as bad as marginally informed people's judgement.

Look at the evidence for yourself, and evaluate it yourself. The worst thing you can do is rely on the views of politicians. Especially "triangulators"

I get the impression that the argument is made to fit one's preference. Andrew Sullivan hates the Clintons so sucks up to Obama. No real thinking required because his personal hatred rules. If you are for Hillary then you react accordingly. Matt: I have to wonder: why is that no one who ever takes part in a campaign for office sits at a computer and criticises candidates. There is something perverse about the way things work. Those who go out and try to get elected, and take their lumps are subject to all kinds of criticism. Those who cant sít their arse's and write profound pieces criticising candidates.

There is something wrong with the system: those who never have to deliver are free to criticise tho who have to do so. Maybe you have contempt for politicians. Do you wonder why they think that scribblers are a useless bunch of armchair critics.

Anyone of the scribes at Atlantic try for office; go out and try to get votes, get elected and then do all the wonderful things they want politicians to do.

Frankly my dear, I dont give a damn ( said a politician seeking office to the scribbler who tried to hold him to account). I guess I am pissed off and the self righteous tone of many commenters.

della Rovere, I, too, supported the Afghanistan war. Like you, I was suckered into thinking that Bush was a sorta normal American president. Of course, if I had known that the plan was to let Al qaeda dribble away so that we'd have a terrorist on tap threat to justify whatthefuckever in the Middle East, I would have supported negotiating with the Taliban. Obviously. On the other hand, there just wasn't enough information at that time to know how clueless Bush was about foreign policy. We didn't know that he'd had opportunities to stop the attack in the U.S. that he'd simply slept through. We didn't know his advisors were as corrupt and incompetent as they were. It was pretty obvious, though, by Spring of 2002. The lesson of Afghanistan was then clear for anyone to see - these people were nutty, they were willing to put their own narrow political careers above U.S. security, and they had little knowledge ore even desire to know about the cultures they were tangled with. There was every reason to think a Dem leader like Clinton could have gone: go into Iraq and let Osama bin Laden roam free? Hell no! and have made that a nice skewering point, even if said democrats were unwilling to do the obvious thing, say let's end the embargo on Iran, recognize the place, pump up the economy of Northern Iraq, and watch Saddam's elite realize that they had to get rid of him to survive. As was obvious even then, Iran was who the Iraqi elite feared.

"there's an objective difference between the status of an important political leader and that of a college senior. In other words, I supported the war in part because Bill Clinton and people like him were supporting the war."

The problem for you, Matt, is that you're still doing this - except today it's Bush and since he's a Republican, you don't like him, so you don't believe him.

Put Obama - or even Clinton - in and you'll be doing the same damn thing - believing politicians.

That was your fundamental mistake - not supporting the war.

You're still a college senior at heart.

A smug one, too.

let's be clear here.
lots of people vehemently opposed the war. from the beginning.
sure, there was a solid contingent of democrats who went along with bush, but for many of us, there was never any doubt that the push for war was not a close call at all.
it was never a matter of having to sort out complexities.
it was extremely simple. and the only question was whether certain politicians were going to resist the prevailing winds and stand up and say, no, we will not give our blessing to this monumental travesty.
war supporters now want to rewrite history and conjure up a time when few, if any, argued against the war against iraq.
sorry. that does not compute.
the fools who lacked the courage to stand up to bush have to deal with the fact that they got played. the fact that they did not have the intestinal fortitude to do what was obvious and right at that point in history. it is something they will have to carry as a burden for the rest of their lives. and if that person is a politician, they will correctly be forever tarred as someone who failed the leadership/courage test when the country needed it the most.

Armando writes: "That is fine and true but what you, Durbin and Stoller choose to ignore is that Obama's record on Iraq AFTER 2002 is less than stellar"

Clinton and the other Yes-voters let Bush not use a condom.

After you've got the baby (the war), it's not as easy to stop paying for support.

That's why it's so important to get the early decision right, and why a Yes vote was so bad.


I opposed the Iraq war from the start, but then, I'm not a smarty-pants Harvard philosophy student, I only work here.

"3. The United States was not only morally justified, but morally obligated to invade Afghanistan in 2001-2. Militant factions of that region planned, implemented and deployed successfully a large-scale attack on the sovereign territory of the United States in 2001. Not to defend against that attack would be morally and practically unthinkable.

4. Anyone who thinks invading Afghanistan was a mistake or problem begs the question of their own ability to view the world rationally."

This of course is completely false. It was not "militant factions in that region" that attacked the US. It was one specific group who were allowed to reside in Afghanistan because the leader of that group was a major supporter of the Afghan resistance against the Soviet invasion - and an individual who was known and protected by the Pakistan ISI who in turn were well known for this by the CIA.

The Taliban were willing to consider giving up bin Laden IF Bush was willing to provide evidence of his involvement in 9/11. They had to do this because of the Pashtun rule of hospitality and the fact of bin Laden's popularity alluded to above.

Bush didn't bother. He basically told the Taliban, "Give him up or we bomb you.' He then told Musharraf in Pakistan the same thing. Musharraf went along after being promised billions in military aid against India.

What could have been done against Al Qaeda with diplomacy towards the Taliban and covert action was not done.

The result was a war which FAILED as badly as Iraq. The Taliban and Al Qaeda were driven next door, resulting in an increasingly destabilized Pakistan. The cost has been enormous both in US taxpayer dollars, the rise in the Afghan heroin production, and the deaths of NATO and US troops, as well as increased hatred of the US in the region and elsewhere.

The invasion of Afghanistan was STUPID and a FAILURE resulting from the stupid notion that getting bin Laden necessitated an invasion of a country that nobody otherwise gave a damn about - just like Iraq. Whereas Iraq was an oil grab, Afghanistan was a PR STUNT to gin up war fever for later attacks on Iraq and Iran and Syria (although an oil pipeline - which BTW the Taliban were in favor of - and regenerating heroin sales clearly had a part in the motivation.)

The problem for Matt is that he STILL thinks Afghanistan was a good idea - showing he still hasn't got a clue that Afghanistan leads directly to Pakistan - and THAT disaster is in the wings whether Clinton or Obama gets elected.

Matt also STILL hasn't answered my two questions on Iran - which means he's STILL a hawk on the use of military force to prevent proliferation despite ZERO evidence that it either works or should be used at all.

And he's still a smug college senior who won't engage his readers on these issues.

Well. I'm 58 years old, his senior, and I'm calling him out on this. Has he got the balls to engage?

I didn't think so.

Matt, I hope the evident righteous moronism of those who "slam-dunked" my post gives you pause....

Clearly, I'm with your mom (If that's indeed her--wise lady!) One more time: I was never for invasion, so I don't have anyone's cross to bear. Just a lot of American foreign policy history under my belt.

That's pretty pathetic.

Looking to people like Bill Clinton to figure out if pre-emptive war was a good idea?

Why not listen to Hans Blix? Why not listen to El Baradei? Why not listen to Scott Ritter? Why not listen to Joe Wilson?

That's who I, and many people that I know, listened to. And we all came to the same conclusion: Invading and occupying Iraq was the most disastrous thing the US could do, and would instantly plunge the world into a nightmare scenario that would take years, if not decades, to unravel.

We knew Bush was lying. We knew Colin Powell was lying. We knew Don Rumsfeld was lying. We knew McCain, Pollack, Kristol, Goldberg and all the rest were lying through their teeth.

It was so easy to come to this conclusion, and I'm not just surprised, but I'm confused and pretty damn disappointed that you didn't have the clear judgement or actually, logic, to know better.

@ Pug:
"In addition, Afghanistan is the country from which the 9/11 attackers came"


Actually, 19 of them were Saudi. Most of the planning was done in Germany.

"But can we at least admit that the case against the war in 2002 wasn't the slam dunk it later became?"

No. I clearly remember Gephardt droning on endlessly about "Weapons of Mass Destruction(!!!!)" and thinking, what a simplistic, total moron.

The best speech prior to the invasion was Dominique de Villepin's February 14, 2003 address in which France attempted to save the United States from ourselves.

Lots and LOTS of people could see invading Iraq was the stupidest fucking idea on the planet. It really wasn't difficult.

Re Alan's comment " Matt: I have to wonder: why is that no one who ever takes part in a campaign for office sits at a computer and criticises candidates "
--------------
This is utter bullshit.

Politicans are only elected due to the UNPAID efforts of thousands of volunteers trying to make the world better. If Alan had ever been near a campaign, he would know that.

I have worked for Democratic candidates in the last three Congressional campaigns in my district and I worked in Howard Dean's 2004 Presidential campaign. I have Spent MONTHs on that work.

But Alan's uninformed view is typical of those snotnosed immature infants who latch onto a cult of personality -- who are not adult enough to investigate the facts and make rational decisions.

When Bill Clinton lied under oath --and gave the Republicans an opening to tie the government up in knots for two years, he betrayed every person who worked to elect him.

When HIllary whored for Haim Saban, she betrayed every Democrat who believes in her.

Jon H.: Clinton and the other Yes-voters let Bush not use a condom.

After you've got the baby (the war), it's not as easy to stop paying for support.

Hah! Maybe not a perfect analogy, but utterly an appropriate one considering the criticism is coming from Senator Clinton's husband. She should have spoken up when it mattered most as her more courageous senate colleagues did. I would have been receptive to an honest case for war, but that is not what we were delivered in 2002-2003. Clinton is one of the people elected in part to KEEP THE PRESIDENT HONEST. For her to say "I was fooled" is not impressive.

Because she was fooled, we are paying the child support. Hillary shouldn't ever be allowed to forget that Iraq W. Bush is her baby too.

I love the modesty inherent in the "college senior" comment.

Koshembos @1:06 PM and pals...

There were 23 Senators that voted against the Iraq War Authorization bill...21 Dems, 1 Rep, 1 IND.

On October 11, 2002 the NY Times does a rundown on who voted for or against and some of their reasoning. Interesting reading with hindsight.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9402EFD6143AF932A25753C1A9649C8B63&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=1

The Clinton's have been viewed as the titular party leaders since their administration.

Leaders lead.

Neither the Clinton's did...they were relying on the intelligence they had when WJC was in office, did not read the current confidential report (she admitted that), and cast a vote to preserve both HRC's Presidential run and the idea of executive power.

I don't think she thinks it was a mistake. I think she did it purposefully and meant it and everything she said in her floor statement.

10/10/02
"I want this President, or any future President, to be in the strongest possible position to lead our country in the United Nations or in war."..."A vote for it is not a vote to rush to war; it is a vote that puts awesome responsibility in the hands of our President and we say to him - use these powers wisely and as a last resort."

http://clinton.senate.gov/speeches/iraq_101002.html


Secondly, I think that the Congress was wrong to deny (President Clinton) authority with respect to Kosovo, and they did it for politically partisan reasons, and I don't think that's right. I don't care whether the president's Republican or Democratic. I think you have to take the president at his word, and this president said to us, "We believe there are weapons," which many of us also believed, and "We are going to do everything we can to try to get inspectors in to determine how we can get to the bottom of the evidence that would show us what Saddam has and then finally to disarm him." I found that a legitimate objective because we have been dealing with Saddam Hussein since 1991 in the Gulf War ...

http://mediamatters.org/items/200705300003

Not only that, the New York Times is saying the Clintons are mistating the record when they say Chuck Hagel's intent was merely to force Bush into diplomacy.

See here:

In Defending War Vote, Clintons Contradict Record
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/14/us/politics/14checkpoint.html?ex=1357966800&en=7888d7fea22e8c8a&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss&pagewanted=all

Note the part where in fact what Hagel did was get Bush to agree to ONLY ATTACK IRAQ - and not anybody else - like Iran, which Israel wanted him to.

As it turns out, Hagel's wording wasn't the one used, instead Gephardt's and Lieberman's was.

Barack Obama TOOK A STAND against the IRAQ INVASION when it MATTERED.

Hillary Clinton PLAYED politics when it MATTERED.

Everything else is just BUNK !

Posted by Pug | January 13, 2008 12:44 PM
Nothing personal, Murph, but that is about as dumb a thing as I've seen written in a long time. "Afghanistan would turn back into a chaotic shithole"? This implies it was not already exactly that under the rule of the Taliban. Maybe you are a strong Taliban supporter. I don't know.

HAHAHAHAHA!!! You must have studied Afghan history ey Pug? HAHAHAHA!!! Afghanistan was torn apart by war in the two decades PRECEDING the Taliban's rise to power. The Taliban were supported indirectly by the US through the Pakistani ISI during the 1980s. The Taliban after taking control of Afghanistan did succeed in stabilizing it. There were plans for a huge pipeline. There was no civil war or domestic infighting for the first time in DECADES. Ask even a non-religious Afghan if they prefer the post-invasion chaos and their new warlord state, or the rule of the Taliban--THERE'S NO QUESTION!

Posted by Pug | January 13, 2008 12:44 PM
In addition, Afghanistan is the country from which the 9/11 attackers came. They trained there, received their orders from there and were sheltered by the Taliban government there.

HAHAHAHAHA!!! Close one, Pug! Did you mean "Saudi Arabia" or "Pakistan" when you wrote Afghanistan??? HAHAHAHA!!!

Posted by Pug | January 13, 2008 12:44 PM
I guess you think America should have had no response to over 3,000 of her citizens being slaughtered?

Yeah, those are the words you just put in my mouth alright! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!! You are very serious, aren't you!!!?? HAHAHAHA! I thought maybe you were doing satire! HAHAHA!

Posted by Sam Hutcheson | January 13, 2008 1:23 PM
3. The United States was not only morally justified, but morally obligated to invade Afghanistan in 2001-2.

HAHAHAHAHA! "Morally obligated"! That is hilarious! We were morally obligated to steal half of Mexico and drop two nuclear weapons on civilian populations, too, right Sam?? HAHAHAHAHAHA! I like your "morals" -- can I come to your church sometime?

Posted by Sam Hutcheson | January 13, 2008 1:23 PM
Militant factions of that region planned, implemented and deployed successfully a large-scale attack on the sovereign territory of the United States in 2001. Not to defend against that attack would be morally and practically unthinkable.

HAHAHAHAHAHA! WE *DIDN'T* DEFEND AGAINST IT, Sam! HAHAHAHA! They executed it without any interference, no fighter jets scrambled, no message to the folks in the second WTC tower to evacuate despite heaps of credible evidence that there was a terrorist attack being played out! Good DEFENSE!!! HAHAHAHAHA!

And you and Pug seem to need a geography lesson, maybe you can pinch pennies and hire a single tutor for both of you? Saudi Arabia is not spelled "Afghanistan"! HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! American education baby!

Posted by Sam Hutcheson | January 13, 2008 1:23 PM
4. Anyone who thinks invading Afghanistan was a mistake or problem begs the question of their own ability to view the world rationally.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! I love you Sam! That was a killer!!! Afghanistan wasn't only not a mistake, it was one of the best military invasions ever! Right!?!?!? HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

Posted by Sam Hutcheson | January 13, 2008 1:23 PM
5. Yes, this is somewhat of an attack on "Murph."

Who? HAHAHAHAHAHA!

Posted by Richard Steven Hack | January 13, 2008 8:24 PM
The problem for Matt is that he STILL thinks Afghanistan was a good idea - showing he still hasn't got a clue that Afghanistan leads directly to Pakistan - and THAT disaster is in the wings whether Clinton or Obama gets elected.

HAHAHAHAHA! Richard, don't you know that Afghanistan would have been a BLINDING SUCCESS if only Democrats had been managing the invasion!?!?!?!? Don't you know that if someone on a foreign visa comes and attacks your country, the best thing to do is to bomb the shit out of some other country whose people had nothing to do with the attack? Haven't you ever heard of "hearts and minds" Richard? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Matt and the chicken hawk Democrats are SERIOUS people! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!! Nothing makes me laugh like "serious"! HAHAHA!!!! Thanks everybody!

I think Matt's logic at the time was, correct me if I'm wrong here, "If we don't strike Afghanistan for 9/11, the world is gonna think we're a bunch of pussies!"

Good, solid reasoning! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! "SERIOUS"!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Matt, maybe you can take Tom Friedman's chair at the Times when your time has come. Remember when he wrote that we needed to take some little Muslim country and beat 'em up, to show the world we meant business??

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Now the world is dumping dollars and aligning against the US. I think they mean business!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!

This war business sure is good for all us lil folks! Maybe if I play my cards right, and Hillary invades Pakistan or Iran, one day my baby daughter can tell her friends that her dad couldn't be around to raise her, cuz he died somewhere in Asia! I bet she'd be so proud!

I love the empire!!! I'm not content sending my tax money for imperial conquest, I want to fight and die on foreign soil to be tossed in a shallow, unmarked grave! Now that's glory! HAHAHAHAHAHA!


Comments closed January 27, 2008.

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