« Death From Above | Main | Brokerage » GDP Map17 Jan 2008 02:46 pm
Via Tyler Cowen, a neat map that renames US states after countries that have similar GDPs to the state in question. Note that Iran, allegedly about to embark on a campaign of world domination, has the same approximate level of economic output as Alabama. Elsewhere in the region, Saudi Arabia is like Tennessee, Israel is like Oregon, and Turkey is like Washington. I don't like Alabama's odds in a big for hegemony against those three. Puts things in perspective. Comments (51)
No, this just makes the threat even greater- Iran now shares a border with Saudi Arabia, posing a direct threat to the world's oil supply. And I don't trust a bunch of Muslim and Eastern European countries to protect the air routes between Iran and Israel- a strike is still a real threat. Chile should invade immediately. 
Yeah! And Florida and Korea are both peninsular! Ha ha!
"Note that Iran, allegedly about to embark on a campaign of world domination, has the same approximate level of economic output as Alabama. " This is the kind of straw man argument that Matt would normally call someone an idiot for making.
Those numbers are wrong, though. Our version is here, linked along with some others in a later Strangemaps post.
BTW seeing Texas labeled "Canada" is really jarring.
Al Qaeda would probably rank lower than the city of Topeka, Kansas. What does this prove? -- that we should ignore it??
Seeing my home state of Virginia turned into Austria is kinda jarring as well.
Al Qaeda would probably rank lower than the city of Topeka, Kansas. What does this prove? -- that we should ignore it?? No, we should treat is as no more of a threat than if Topeka became radicalized, militarized, and dispersed. That would be bad, and would be one of the things that the US government would have to worry about. But, and this is the point that Matt was making, we should recognize that Topeka doesn't really have the capability to impose its will even on all of Kansas, let alone all of Europe or the Middle East or whatever. It's not about dismissing threats, but recognizing them for the power they actually wield.
BTW seeing Texas labeled "Canada" is really jarring. Health care's a right, the weather's shite I agree that the "threat" posed by Iran has been greatly exaggerated, but this map doesn't prove much in that regard. Does it also prove that a war between Russia and New Jersey would be a fair fight, or that the Israelis--with their air force, tanks and nuclear weapons--wouldn't be able to out-last the Oregonians?
This map is very wrong. According to Wikipedia, Alabama's GDP is $160 billion. Iran's is $610 billion. I'm sure the rest of the map is similarly inaccurate.
Note that Iran, allegedly about to embark on a campaign of world domination, has the same approximate level of economic output as Alabama. No wonder those Tehran rallies end with chants of "God is Great" and "Roll Tide."
I guess we should let Alabamians have the bomb.
"I guess we should let Alabamians have the bomb." First toilets, then the bomb.
Well at least Tennessee isn't threatening to wipe Oregon off the map, as Alabama's President I'm-A-Dinner-Jacket does on a regular basis. Viva la Mexico!
That's a pretty dumb comparison, Mr. Yglesias. A country's ability to fight a war is related to many other things than GDP and technology. Ideological conviction, desperation, shrewd cunning and the ability to mobilize the population in ways that are not available to a liberal regime, have all won wars or at least achieved stalemates against much powerful opponents before. The United States, for all its wealth and weaponry, couldn't beat the Vietnamese, just like the Soviets couldn't beat the Afghans. A war, like a high school wrestling match, is often settled not by who is the strongest, but by who can endure the most pain. If the United States invaded Iran, or Syria or Venezuela, tomorrow, I would bet very highly on its chances of defeat. In other words, Iran is not like Alabama, because Iranians are not Alabamians.
CG-
Yo, Matt, these figures are wrong. Check out the map linked in Apo's comment.
A war, like a high school wrestling match, is often settled not by who is the strongest, but by who can endure the most pain. I wrestled a bit back in my day, and all the matches I remember were either settled by pinning one's opponent or getting more points. Where did you go to high school?
Tom Lehrer, "Who's Next" First we got the bomb and that was good, ... Luxembourg is next to go
Hector is absolutely right. Matt neglected to factor in how shrewdly cunning Persians are compared to southerners in making his case for invading Iran.
Sorry - the comparison falls flat. Since when does GDP indicate the likelihood or capability of a nation to go hegemonic? For example, Nazi Germany had a very poor GDP in 1932. But when Hitler took over in 1933, over the next six years, Germany became the economic power of Europe. How? The state employed everyone. If "Alabama" were to do the same, it would raise GDP, which could finance new oil-extraction equipment. They could then sell and trade the vast amounts of oil they're not extracting making them very very rich. That money could then be used to grow their armed forces. Mix the fascist populism of Ahmadinijad with increasing poverty and you never know. Don't forget the real reason the Gulf Cooperation Council (GCC) was created. It was a buffer against a militaristic Iran. Saying that "Alabama" won't attack "Tennessee" also doesn't take into account that people from "Alabama" aren't the same race or religion as those from "Tennessee." Iranians are Shia Persians and Saudis are Sunni Arabs. They have a history of not getting along. In the end, cute map but it doesn't put anything into any kind of real perspective.
So does this mean the Republicans will deport all illegals to Illinois now?
If the United States invaded Iran, or Syria or Venezuela, tomorrow, I would bet very highly on its chances of defeat. First, invaded has home turf advantage over invader, so the analogy to Iran's ambitions sucks. Second, if the USA (not just a few leaders, but the whole country) really became convinced that it was vital to its survival to invade and conquer Iran, Iran would be crushed like a bug. And yes, GDP is a huge factor in that. Like in wrestling, all that other shit only matters if you're close to the same size.
Our version is here, linked along with some others in a later Strangemaps post. ... in which Texas is demoted from Canada to Mexico. You guys really know how to hit where it hurts.
You guys are only about a year late . . . and the appropriate source is The York Group http://bigpicture.typepad.com/comments/2007/01/countries_gdp_a.html
You think that's bad... We go from Mexico to Belgium (no disrespect meant to you Belgiumers - if we're someone else, I want to be someone else warmer).
In related news, Luxembourg has double the GDP per capita of the US.
... in which Texas is demoted from Canada to Mexico. You guys really know how to hit where it hurts. At this rate pretty soon Texas will be demoted from "Mexico" to "Oklahoma."
over the next six years, Germany became the economic power of Europe. How? Prescott Bush.
Um. Andrew Sullivan had this very map up on his blog months ago.
For example, Nazi Germany had a very poor GDP in 1932. But when Hitler took over in 1933, over the next six years, Germany became the economic power of Europe. How? The state employed everyone. Can people who apparently learned their history of the 1930s by watching Star Trek and Hogan's Heroes please stop posting? (And writing books, I'm looking at you, JG).
You think that's bad... We go from Mexico to Belgium Relax. Your beer just got a lot better and your neighbors are nicer.
Ideological conviction, desperation, shrewd cunning and the ability to mobilize the population in ways that are not available to a liberal regime, have all won wars or at least achieved stalemates against much [sic] powerful opponents before. The US in 2003, for instance. What a triumphant stalemate they achieved.
Relax. Your beer just got a lot better and your neighbors are nicer. I think it's safe to say that the tragedy here is DC's demotion from New Zealand to Bangladesh.
I think it's safe to say that the tragedy here is DC's demotion from New Zealand to Bangladesh. Having just returned from DC, I'd take the latter as an improvement, if only for the food. It was as if everyone in the capitol's environs had had their tastebuds removed for tax purposes.
This tends to make Bush's case for him. Does economic might matter when you have a nuclear bomb?
You should know that this map is very far out of date. Given the weaker dollar and strong growth in most of the EM world, the comparisons generally overstate the relative economic size of U.S. states. For example, New Jersey had a gross state product of $471.3 billion in 2006; 2007 might have been up 5% in nominal terms, leaving it at around $476 billion. Market estimates places Russia's GDP in 2007 at around $1,200 billion. A similar comparison would have Iran about 2/3 larger than Alabama, at $278 billion vs. $169 billion. Less drmatically, Canada is about 25 percent larger than Texas (in nominal dollar GDP) at about $1,450 billion vs. $1,120 billion. This stuff is easy to look up. Just consult the IMF's October World Economic Outlook database (available online), and google "gross state product" to get the BEA data on same.
I don't trust Alabama either.
Following up on the comment by James Gary concerning high school wrestling --- from my experience if you gave each high school wrestler an assessment on three axis -- wrestling smarts, functional strength/endurance, and balance/quickness you would have an excellent predictor of who would win most matches. I had excellent wrestling smarts and functional strength, and crap for quickness with decent balance, so I had a damn good junior and senior year. The only guys I had trouble against were either triple threats who had equivilant strength but were way faster than me, or one freak of nature who was dumb as a rock but bench-pressed Buicks for a warm-up. My Gross Wrestling Assessment is a decent indicator of probable outcomes. Sure every now and then I caught a state finalist exposed and could Peterson roll him, or my ankle gave out randomly and got me in trouble in the first round, but the the wrestler with a greater GWA would win most matches over the weaker opponent.
I'm sure that the low GDP numbers of Tamerlane's militarized state was a great comfort to the Islamic caliphate headquartered in Baghdad, and to the nascent Ottoman Empire.
Re: Since when does GDP indicate the likelihood or capability of a nation to go hegemonic? For a nation to embrak on a career of conquest it must have a functioning economy capable of supporting that effort. That doesn't mean it must be number one, but it does mean it needs to be near the top of the charts in the neighborhood where it plans to go a-conquering. None of the world's great empires were basketcases economically when they began to grow their borders. Re: I'm sure that the low GDP numbers of Tamerlane's militarized state was a great comfort to the Islamic caliphate headquartered in Baghdad, and to the nascent Ottoman Empire. Tamerlane was sitting right on top of the world's crucial east-west trade routes (remmeber, that was some years before Senhor da Gama found another way east). He had money got out his butt before he took on the Scourge of God role.
That $600 billion figure for Iran's GDP is based on PPP figures, not nominal. I'm pretty sure the map uses nominal GDP, which will be significantly lower for a country like Iran... It looks more likely to me they use PPP. Look at France and California. The latter has a big economy, but the former must now be approaching $2.5 trillion in nominal terms, a figure California can't yet match. You should know that this map is very far out of date. Given the weaker dollar and strong growth in most of the EM world, the comparisons generally overstate the relative economic size of U.S. states. Yup.
I notice that Bangladesh and Venezuala get to hold the first primary and caucus to choose the president. Great!
Anyone thinking Iran could be "crushed like a bug" is a complete idiot. Sure, if you nuke every major city and most of the smaller towns all at once, let the fallout kill a few million more, then raise an army of five or ten million US soldiers and (somehow) get that many troops over there in ships, planes and row boats over a period of a year, yeah, you could probably conquer Iran. It would cost you a trillion dollars. And what would you get for it? Some dead US soldiers (some killed by our own radiation, a few more killed by whoever is left alive in Iran), thirty or forty or fifty million dead Iranian civilians, and a bunch of rich corporate CEOs and bankers in the US - and a crushed bug. Wonderful investment. In reality, any likely war against Iran will be lost by the US really badly, just as Iraq was lost, Afghanistan will be lost - and Pakistan will be an utter disaster when that one starts. Trust me - the US will be at war with Pakistan within five years - possibly even if the US is at war with Iran within a year or two. And there is no longer any way for any Western nation to conquer any reasonably sized Third World nation, given 4th Gen War, provided the locals have some sort of motivation to dislike the US - which is just about everybody these days. The US has not "conquered" Iraq - and that was one of the weakest and most divided of the three under discussion. If the Shia hadn't laid down under the occupation under the orders of Ayatollah Sistani, we would have been out of there within a year or two of the invasion. And once Iran gets a deal going between SIIC, al-Sadr and the Sunnis, we WILL be out of there within another year or two.
So in other words, we let the Venezuela primary and the Bangladesh primary have disproportionate impact on our politics.
Rob - yeah, the Tom Lehrer song was the first thing that came to mind. Surely the mapmakers must have had that in the back of their minds.
That would explain the endurance of Pennsylvania Dutch.
It's total garbage that Indonesia State even got a chance to play in the college football national title game, much less win it. It should have been Southern France University or the U. of Switzerland.
the leaders of Iran profess to beleive in the "Hidden Iman" islamic theology that says they have to destroy the earth to bring about their messiah!!! and have been seeking nukes, have created Terrorist orginizations like Hezzbollah and Hamas which they've used to attack other nations and are defacto armies. And regularly on Iranian TV wish "Death to America". and your making Straw Man arguments to taunt a serious situation???
I will have you know that Los Angeles is the Paris of the Pacific. Also? Did you know Paris in Greek mythology was like, a guy? I rest my case.
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Heads in the Sand
Cool map. You can fit mighty Russia into little, peanut-shaped New Jersey? Oh my.
Its fitting that they put Norway into Minnesota.
Posted by Jim W | January 17, 2008 2:57 PM