Magic: Vote for Kareem

Hillary Clinton, looking to emphasize that some of her best friends are black, had Magic Johnson record a radio spot (via Ambinder) to play in South Carolina:

This is Magic Johnson. On the court and in life, successful leadership comes from hard work and experience. That’s why I’m endorsing Hillary Clinton for President. We have great candidates this year, but I believe only Hillary is a proven leader, with 35 years’ experience dealing with challenges facing America. Are you looking for better jobs, universal health care, better treatment for veterans, opportunities for your children? Then you want Hillary Clinton for President. My rookie year, we won our first game on a last second shot. I was so hyped. But the captain of my team said, “take it easy rookie, it’s a long season, it’s a long road to the championship.” He was right. Winning comes from years of hard work and preparation. Whether it’s winning championships or a President who can lead us back to greatness, I’ll always want the most prepared and experienced person leading my team. That’s why I’m asking you to join me in voting for Hillary Clinton for President.

Okay, fair enough, but the Lakers won the championship in Magic's rookie season. I suppose that squad was really led by seasoned veteran Kareem Abdul-Jabar, but it still seems like a mixed message. Now the Michael Jordan story maybe shows you need to gain experience before you can win championships.

Photo by Flickr user ChuckyPurdue used under a Creative Commons license

Comments

What the hell is Magic Johnson's connection to South Carolina?

Posted by zaleriana | January 18, 2008 4:50 PM

But of course, MJ supports Obama, which I guess is fitting.

Posted by Nicholas Beaudrot | January 18, 2008 4:52 PM

zaleriana,

He's black.
Most Democratic primary voters are black.
That's the connection.

Posted by Mike | January 18, 2008 4:52 PM

Okay, fair enough, but the Lakers won the championship in Magic's rookie season.

On the back, mind you, of an ethereal game by Magic--maybe his best ever--when he stepped up in Kareem's place because Kareem had been injured and unable to play.

Posted by SomeCallMeTim | January 18, 2008 4:53 PM

What the hell is Magic Johnson's connection to South Carolina?

SC has a large black population and Magic happens to be black. To win in SC Hillary will either need to win a very high proportion of the white vote or come close to splitting the black vote with Obama.

Posted by Bragan | January 18, 2008 4:55 PM

Matthew --
You cannot be this young. I simply won't allow it.
In 1980, Magic's rookie season, Kareem was hobbled with a bad ankle and couldn't play at the end of the Finals. Magic stepped in at center at put up 42 points and 15 rebounds to lead the Lakers to the championship. This is a freaking legendary game, in no small part because the NBA was so popular at the time that CBS ran it on tape delay. My lord. It was only 1980.
Next week's lesson is on Bill Russell.

Posted by charles pierce | January 18, 2008 4:55 PM

Most Democratic primary voters are black.

The highest number I've seen--even in SC, where I think African-Americans are 30% of population--is 40%.

Posted by SomeCallMeTim | January 18, 2008 4:56 PM

More importantly: why do we care what Magic Johnson thinks about politics?

And does the "experience uber alles" line of reasoning mean he's voting for McCain in the general election?

Posted by right | January 18, 2008 4:59 PM

The highest number I've seen--even in SC, where I think African-Americans are 30% of population--is 40%.

African-Americans made up 49% of Democratic primary voters in 2004. It will be over 50% this time.

Posted by Mike | January 18, 2008 5:04 PM

WTF is with that statue? What is Magic stepping on/coming out of?

Posted by Al | January 18, 2008 5:05 PM

What is Magic stepping on/coming out of?

Red Auerbach's heart.

Posted by SomeCallMeTim | January 18, 2008 5:09 PM

I should also add that Magic Johnson lead his alma mater MSU to an NCAA championship.

Posted by freddiemac | January 18, 2008 5:09 PM

African-Americans made up 49% of Democratic primary voters in 2004.

That seems really off to me, somehow. Where are you getting your numbers?

Posted by SomeCallMeTim | January 18, 2008 5:11 PM

WTF is with that statue? What is Magic stepping on/coming out of?

He is springing fully grown from the head of Zeus. Thing is, Zeus is really big. That's just a tiny bit of Zeus hair back there.

Posted by Brad L | January 18, 2008 5:13 PM

African-Americans made up 49% of Democratic primary voters in 2004.

I'm guessing now that you meant in SC, not nationally. Never mind.

Posted by SomeCallMeTim | January 18, 2008 5:16 PM

That seems really off to me, somehow. Where are you getting your numbers?
That's from the exit polls. You can type Google it and find all kinds of articles referencing it.

Also, most of the current polls are projecting 54% of the voters to be African-American in the upcoming primary.

Posted by Mike | January 18, 2008 5:17 PM

I'm guessing now that you meant in SC, not nationally. Never mind.

Yes, I'm talking about SC. Sorry for the confusion.

Posted by Mike | January 18, 2008 5:20 PM

"He's black. Most Democratic primary voters are black."

Duh. So Magic was the only black dude Hillary could find who has a high Q-score in SC? Ridiculous.

And MY's obvious point is that Magic's anologue is Obama, not Hillary--the "experienced" one. Obama's the exciting "rookie" with the ability to lead the "team" to the "championship". You people seem slow, this friday afternoon.

Posted by zaleriana | January 18, 2008 5:21 PM

Forget the basketball frame...

I'm getting sick of this whole "35 years of experience" schtick. The "experience" gambit just doesn't work.

I'll grant that neither Edwards or Obama have the standing to really challenge the claim. But if someone doesn't poke into that phrase the Republican nominee is going to have a field day when Hillary trots out the "35 years" canard in the fall.

Hillary, just stop it. You we're not "making change" as a 24 year old Yale law student. That "experience" is no more or less relevant than Obama at Harvard or Edwards at UNC. You're in your 8th year of elective office. Edwards had 6 years. Obama is in his tenth or 11th year. You've all got the same "experience." Quit trying to pad your resume and stop having your surrogates repeat the same tired (inaccurate) phrase.

Posted by MBinNC | January 18, 2008 5:31 PM

I'm getting sick of this whole "35 years of experience" schtick.

Ditto. All of sudden Hillary is LBJ, MLK, and Bela Abzug rolled into one.

Posted by MikeKC | January 18, 2008 5:51 PM

Hillary is running on experience because there's only two stories for a candidate - the experienced insider who knows how to get things done or the uncorrupted outsider who knows things need to change.

It works fine as a campaign narrative since neither Edwards nor Obama want to step into that political space and challenge her experience credentials. It just breaks down when she actually starts listing specific numbers. But Obama and Edwards don't want to do that because it's very easy to run against the Washington insider.

When it comes to the actual general election, it'd be easy for Hillary (if she wins) to flip to being the outsider coming in to change the years of the Republican Presidency.

Posted by Alex | January 18, 2008 5:55 PM

Why would they stop? Nobody has been responsible enough to call them on it before, why would they start now?

It's called "riding the myth". They want to keep the wave going until January 09 and then the DC recriminations about how inexperienced she really actually sort of is will start coming out. Then she'll be destroyed by the same Carter scenario all the Clintonistas project upon Obama and we'll end-up getting the second-coming of the sunny optimist(Reagan) in 2012. This will of course follow a recession and the total collapse of the bureaucracy, or rather a mythical one for Reagan 2.0 to ride in on.

Posted by Abe | January 18, 2008 5:59 PM

Okay, I don't even know where to start.

Hillary Clinton is no Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. She does not have anything like three NCAA championships under her belt, not to mention 72 consecutive wins in high school. She didn't grow up in New York. Mark Penn is no John Wooden.

Hillary is not a legendary player. She's, at best, a long-time bench rider who's having a late career renaissance.

Posted by southpaw | January 18, 2008 6:01 PM

"I suppose that squad was really led by seasoned veteran Kareem Abdul-Jabar, "

Charles Pierce is right. Jabar even made it clear that it was Magic's team. There was some very dramatic gesture near the end of some game where Jabar walked up to him and handed him the ball in such a way that the whole forum understood what was going on; he was passing him the torch.

I'm sure I would have been very moved if I hadn't hated the Lakers so damn much.

Posted by Njorl | January 18, 2008 6:08 PM

Also, South Carolina is a football state.

Posted by Nicholas Beaudrot | January 18, 2008 6:11 PM

the question of who "led" the lakers that year is a tricky one (there's a famous story of the lakers hitting a shot at the buzzer to win their first or second game that season and johnson jumping up and down with joy and kareem telling him, basically, "earvin, chill, this is our living"), but the essential point, as chas piere and some call me tim note, is that johnson played what many people (me included) consider the greatest single game ever to lead the lakers that night and he was a rookie....

Posted by howard | January 18, 2008 6:22 PM

Freddiemac, "I should also add that Magic Johnson lead his alma mater MSU to an NCAA championship."

This was, IIRC, as a sophomore, beating an Indiana State University team lead by fifth year senior Larry Bird, further undercutting the point about the value of experience.

Posted by mrgumby2u | January 18, 2008 6:26 PM

there's a famous story of the lakers hitting a shot at the buzzer to win their first or second game that season and johnson jumping up and down with joy and kareem telling him, basically, "earvin, chill, this is our living"

That's actually the story Magic is referencing in the spot for Hillary.

It was the first regular season NBA game Magic ever played. Magic had just beaten Bird's theretofore undefeated Indiana State team to win the NCAA title in 1979; that game was-- and is still-- the highest rated college basketball game in history.

CBS, which had the rights to the NBA in those days, put the Lakers' opener against the Philadelphia 76ers, at the time the best team in the league (and whom the Lakers would meet again in the finals that year) on television with their top announcer, Brent Musberger, announcing.

The game was on the road, at the old Spectrum in Philadelphia. At the end of the game, it was won by the Lakers on a last second shot by Kareem. Magic was so excited he was jumping up and down hugging everyone, including Kareem.

Kareem was incensed. He shouted at Magic: "don't ever do that again! We have EIGHTY-ONE MORE GAMES to play!". Magic claims he replied "and if they all end that way, you are getting eighty-one more hugs".

In any event, that's the story. A legendary start to a legendary career.

Posted by Dilan Esper | January 18, 2008 7:20 PM

Kareem just didn't want Magic to have any false hopes after the first game.

Posted by Led | January 18, 2008 7:23 PM

Anybody else think it's a little weird to have two famously-admitted adulterers on the campaign trail for a strong feminist candidate?

Posted by converse | January 18, 2008 7:40 PM

Al asks: "WTF is with that statue? What is Magic stepping on/coming out of?"

No idea, but Magic's face looks like he's 60, and he never had a body that pumped and defined. They gave him a steroids body!

Posted by MoeLarryAndJesus | January 18, 2008 7:42 PM

thank you, dilan, for refreshing on the details: it all comes back now!

if memory serves, that michigan state - indiana state final went up against the oscars, didn't it?

Posted by howard | January 18, 2008 7:47 PM

No idea, but Magic's face looks like he's 60, and he never had a body that pumped and defined. They gave him a steroids body!

He's ripped! I remember reading how Johnson, after being diagnosed with HIV, began lifting weights for the first time in his life in the early 90's...and struggled to bench press 135 lbs. But this statue is not just ripped for Magic Johnson...it's more ripped than any player in the current NBA.

I am going to commission the same sculptor to do a shirtless statue of me. Heck, he could probably even make MY look non-pudgy.

(I kid, I kid. You've been looking svelte in those round table discussions, Matt.)

Posted by owenz | January 18, 2008 8:00 PM

heresy, i know, but magic's performance as center, as a rookie, in the finals is, to me, why he's got as good if not better claim to GOAT than MJ.

and i think MY's implicit point is right -- magic is obama, not hrc, and hrc's no kareem, either (she's got nowhere near the experience/dominance kareem had throughout his career).

Posted by dj superflat | January 18, 2008 8:15 PM

Now the Michael Jordan story maybe shows you need to gain experience before you can win championships

Matt's anti-college b-ball bias shines through. Jordan won the NCAA's for the Tar Heels as a freshman around 1981-82, and did it with that beautifully ridiculous and ill-advised jump shot down the stretch against G'town. Not a bad argument in favor of Obama's campaign when you think about it.

Posted by fnook | January 18, 2008 8:17 PM

It's worth pointing out that even before he went on to glory with the Lakers, Abdul-Jabbar (then Alcindor) led the theretofore unfortunate Milwaukee Bucks to second place in the East in his rookie year, also ranked second in scoring league-wide, and was named rookie of the year. So even Kareem might see the virtue of a fresh face . . .

Posted by southpaw | January 18, 2008 8:27 PM

southpaw: wasn't Kareem also MVP his rookie year? Or was that Wilt?

Posted by Michael | January 18, 2008 9:02 PM

Oh my mistake: Wilt was MVP for his rookie year.

That yeah, in addition to 1st team all-nba, ROY, MVP, all-star game, etc, he also lead the league in minutes, field goals, points, rebounds, ppg and rpg, etc etc.

Kareem was MVP his sophomore year. Willis Reed took it KAJ's rookie year. Kareem came in 3rd in the voting, behind Reed and Jerry West.

ROFL. Talk about an ill-conceived ad.

I have to say though, as a basketball nut and a political junkie, this has to be one of the most enjoyable threads I've read in a long time.

Posted by Michael | January 18, 2008 9:08 PM

Magic had to step into Kareem's role after he got hurt and he led the team to victory. He wrote about the experience extensively in his book. The extraordinary part was he played Kareem's position of center. I know the Clinton's helped Magic make a deal with Burkle, but give me a break. They are not getting our vote back. To make matters worse they continue to insult our intelligence by pandering with Magic Johnson. They are so stuck in the 1990's. Obama is endorsed by Chris Rock, Dr. Cornel West, Oprah, Will Smith, etc. Bill and Hillary are so patronizing they don't even have an accurate perception of who our community holds in high esteem. If they did they would have known that Bob Johson is not our favorite especially as a result of the programming on BET.

Posted by RealB.G. | January 18, 2008 9:16 PM

I'd also note that Pat Riley has a story in his book The Winner Within about his first road game as coach, the young assistant who'd just a coupe years earlier been an announcer (!) for the team, taking over for Paul Westhead. How after Riley told the team to go to the lockerroom while he went upstairs, Magic and the rest of the team marched behind him instead of going to the lockers. When Riles turned around, confused as to what was going on, Magic said, "You're our leader now, and we'll follow you whereever you go" or something along those lines.

Riley was, of course, 36 at the time...which I believe made him the youngest head coach in the NBA at that time (not positive on that, though). He was only 6 years removed from playing, and had only been coaching, as an assistant, for, IIRC, 2 years. Of course, the Lakers, invigorated by the new coach, went on to win 70% of their games that year and reclaim the title.

Man, this is fun!

We could go on and on.

Posted by Michael | January 18, 2008 9:22 PM

... the uncorrupted outsider who knows things need to change.

Anybody that believes that needs to take a look at the contributions. Obama wouldn't be taken seriously if the insiders didn't think he was willing to "play ball".

Posted by justinb | January 18, 2008 9:31 PM

Man, I hate sports...

Posted by Richard Steven Hack | January 18, 2008 10:47 PM

Until MJ Magic was the greatest, and filling in for Kareem at center in the finals one of the greatest performances ever. But does anyone remember this?

Abduuuuuuuuuuuuullllllll Jabaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrr...

Sure, by that time it took him a half an hour to get up and down the court even without a bad ankle, but there was nothing prettier than hearing his name after the skyhook, baby.

Posted by observerfrommars | January 18, 2008 11:38 PM

Well, neither Jordan nor Magic won 11 championships. Russell did; he's the greatest of all time.

What I would say about Magic is that unlike most other very popular players, he actually promoted team ball on offense. In that sense, he had a very positive impact. Kids who grew up idolizing Michael Jordan wanted to take 40 shots a game over doubleteams. Kids who grew up idolizing Magic wanted to learn the no-look pass on the fast break.

Posted by Dilan Esper | January 18, 2008 11:49 PM

Don't know much bout no basketball but I do know Magic Johnson is one of the most popular Afro-American celebrities of all times, especially as in "likeable," exactly the type that would appeal to the many not-so-very-urban and not-all-twenty-somethings of the SC Afro-American population. I think it's a great "get" for their campaign, the only better "get" I can think of would perhaps be Muhammad Ali. (Oprah can't even compare, she's too "urbane.")

Interesting choice also in that it suggests that they are trying for older Afro-American male voters, even though this Jan. 15 New York Times article suggested that males were all wrapped up for Obama and that it was Afro-American women who were the undecided ones.

Posted by artappraiser | January 18, 2008 11:53 PM

Holy shit! This thread just game me a Tommy Heinsohn flashback. Nooo!!

Posted by red holtzman not auerbach | January 18, 2008 11:59 PM

BTW--totally agree with the commenters about Magic's taking over for an injured Kareem in the NBA finals in his rookie season. That game was sick (I presume it's on ESPN classic often enough). The mere fact that you had a 6'9" point guard leading Showtime to begin with was ridiculous, of course. Taking over in the high post for Kareem--absurd. And *completely* agree with Dilan's 11:49 comment. Jordan had the effect of killing the NBA for a generation (well, at least the US--how have they fared in international competition lately?). Magic (and, yes, Bird, the dickhead) are 2 of the best team players ever.

Then again, you could make the argument that Jordan must have been a pretty good team player, since Pippen's success is (apparently) directly correlated to Jordan's presence, and a lot of people who would otherwise have been fairly wasted in other organizations (err--Steve Kerr?) had nice runs due to the presence of the "Human Highlight Film."

Posted by red holtzman not auerbach | January 19, 2008 12:08 AM

Bronze statues of african-americans look so much more realistic that their white counterparts.

Why can't sculptors find an equivalent?

Posted by Sangfroid826 | January 19, 2008 12:17 AM

um, pippen arguably did better w/o jordan than jordan did w/o pippen (you can look it up -- jordan leaves bulls, bulls win a couple less games, get all the way to eastern finals to get robbed on some non-calls (yes, scottie bowed out, etc.), scottie was a monster that year; scottie also took portland (a very good portland, granted) all the way to game 7 of western conference only to give it away to lakers). so quit picking on scottie.

as for kerr, even at the advanced age of something, he was still good enough to come up the bench, light things up in very short order, and effectively save the spurs year. just like rob, you can't knock someone like steve (or dennis) who's got that many rings. they're clearly serios contributors, rather than just along for the ride (hence jordan kicking to steve for some monster shots).

Posted by dj superflat | January 19, 2008 12:54 AM

artappraiser--

yeah, Magic is a good "get", the problem is that the type of people he's especially popular with are precisely the people who would recognize who patently absurd it is for him of all athletes to be making a pitch denigrating rookie hype and talking up experience.

As famous as he is for all this great years, his most famous performance and one of arguably the greatest individual games ever (given context) came in his rookie year as the hyped-up rookie who literally stepped up to replace the seasoned, experienced veteran who couldn't go.

It's just ridiculous. The message doesn't fit the messenger at all.

Posted by Michael | January 19, 2008 1:45 AM

Another angle (just for fun, sort of)
Kareem was playing around with drugs in college, but sublimated his frustration with white racism and buried his own bad habits when he found peace with Islam. Later on, his spiritual mentor went off the deep end and took hostages because a movie dared showed a representation of Mohammed; while Kareem personally benefitted from his young-adult conversion, he was pretty close to someone who was more radical than he appreciated.

So, maybe Hillary is extra-happy to have a Magic endorsement to draw a contrast with Obama, who found some solace in the counsel of a Christian pastor that turns out to be more radical than most people can relate to -- just like Kareem.

Yeah, that doesn't make sense but I'm just SO annoyed at the Cohen story and related claptrap, regardless of the degree of guilt Hillary and surrogates have for playing race cards.

When I was a suburban white teenager, I devoured Kareem's first autobiography about three times. It taught me a lot; it made racism less abstract and more personal to me. I have a lot of respect for Kareem, not for his athleticism (which was awesome) but for his respect for history and intolerance of the intolerable. Kareem is a thoughtful, sensitive person with political awareness. Magic is also more than just an awesome athlete and I'm sure he and Kareem respect each other (In _Giant Steps_ Kareem acknowledges Magic's infectious positivity as well as the legendary performance Magic gave in the finals) . I have a hard time imagining Kareem for Hillary, however.

LA LAKERS
FAST BREAK MAKERS
KINGS OF THE COURT
SHAKE AND BAKE ALL TAKERS

1980s Lakers: Best. Team. Ever.

PS: I am Kurt Rambus.

Posted by ScottS | January 19, 2008 2:15 AM

Posted this on Ambers' site and thought you might dig the Bullets/Wizards connection, Matt.

Magic Johnson tells the LA Sentinel what he thinks of Barack Obama running for President:

Sentinel: Tell me about that telephone conversation you had with Senator Obama. Did you say here’s a $2300 check, but I can’t support you.

Magic Johnson: Well, I’ll just say you have to be honest. I like him and really think that sometimes—it’s just not your turn. You’re not ready. He’s not ready. It’s almost like I picture him as a rookie coming into the NBA. He’s not ready. So he’s not the one. She IS the one. There’s only one person who can turn this whole thing around. The relationships she has already and the experience it will take him 8 years to gain that and then it’s too late. This is not about Black or White. It’s about who’s the best candidate.

Washington Bullet's owner Abe Pollin on what he thought of Magic Johnson's contract after he was drafted without finishing college in 1979:

Q: How do you feel about rookies coming into the league, never having played, like Magic Johnson and Larry Bird, earning $600,000 a year?

A: I think that's terrible, absolutely terrible. I can understand Bird a little bit because he had an unusual situation and he had the Celtics in a corner. But I still think it's a mistake. . . . I think it puts everything out of kilter. I think when the veterans, who have proven themselves as stars and can draw fans and win games for you, the longer they stay in the league they are deserving of big salaries. . . .I thought the signing of David Thompson for $800,000 a year was a catastrophe for the NBA and I've told the owner that.

Q: If you had somehow this season had the first pick in the draft and a person like Magic Johnson was there, you wouldn't take him?

A: No way. There's no way I would pay him that kind of money. Nope. I would pass.

As the comments here show, everyone knows what happened in the latter case. Go ask Yglesias if he'd have preferred the Bullets make a play for Magic if it were an option at the time at any risk.

Posted by Zach | January 19, 2008 7:38 AM

God help me, I somehow managed to read "Pat Riley" as "Ron Paul."

Posted by mwg | January 19, 2008 9:55 AM

So, do you expect this to carry more, or less, weight than Magic's endorsement of Bill Bradley?

Posted by mike | January 19, 2008 11:17 AM

But this statue is not just ripped for Magic Johnson...it's more ripped than any player in the current NBA.

What? You need to be that muscled to compete in the modern NBA -- hence the whole Kevin Durant debacle earlier last year. For proof, see Wallace, Ben.

Also, strangely enough I was talking about that very Lakers game (and Magic Johnson's legacy) at work yesterday, and I'm MY's age -- I can't fathom the latter's ignorance on the matter.

Posted by EpicureanQuaker | January 19, 2008 12:24 PM

The point is not whether MJ was great coming out of college or whether he could play super level ball in the pros. The point is execution, day-in, day-out. As Kesey says, "What does Superman do between telephone booths?" Or in the movie Colors - an old bull and a young bull are on top of a hill watching a herd of cows. The young bull says, "Let's run down and fuck one of them". The old bull responds, "No, let's walk down and fuck them all".

Bill Walton blew away Kareem in his first championship - but then he blew away his own knees. If you get past Magic's magic rookie season, you see similar problems with knee and hamstring injuries, 1984 getting beaten out by Larry Byrd, in 1985 winning but only because of old man Kareem's great work, 1986 getting mauled by Houston, and then 1991 failing to convert against the Bulls. Yes, he had a good career, but the point is to go for consistent, career-length performance, including titles, not just single game heroics.

And no, I still don't see Obama as being as gifted as Magic Johnson coming out of MSU.

Posted by Desider | January 19, 2008 5:41 PM

Bill Walton blew away Kareem in his first championship - but then he blew away his own knees. If you get past Magic's magic rookie season, you see similar problems with knee and hamstring injuries, 1984 getting beaten out by Larry Byrd, in 1985 winning but only because of old man Kareem's great work, 1986 getting mauled by Houston, and then 1991 failing to convert against the Bulls. Yes, he had a good career, but the point is to go for consistent, career-length performance, including titles, not just single game heroics.

This is a strangely ahistorical view. I watched numerous Laker games on televison in the 1980's, as well as more than a few in person. Magic was actually an amazingly consistent player, and was also multitalented-- he could score, pass, run the break, fake out the defense, penetrate, shoot outside, get the ball to Kareem, etc. He very rarely had a bad game.

And the Lakers never had a bad year between the fall of 1979 when he got there and when he retired the first time after announcing his HIV positive status. They made the playoffs every year, they won a bunch of conference titles, and they won 5 NBA titles.

The idea that Magic wasn't consistent or was constantly hobbled by injuries the way Walton was is complete bunk.

Posted by Dilan Esper | January 19, 2008 6:55 PM