I'm a little baffled about all these people on TV reporting with baited breath that the exit polls in Michigan are showing a ton of concern about the economy. Had they not realized that the Michigan economy was in the shitter before this? I feel like this whole "entire auto industry in collapse" story has been pretty widely reported.
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Michigan Economy
15 Jan 2008 08:47 pm
Comments (26)
"I feel like this whole "entire auto industry in collapse" story has been pretty widely reported."
The "entire auto industry" isn't in "collapse"; the domestic auto companies hobbled by the UAW are in dire straights. Honda, Toyota, Subaru, and others are profitably building cars in America.
That's "bated."
But yeah, what blah said.
Couldn't hairbrained reporters speak with baited breath?
the domestic auto companies hobbled by a fucked up healthcare system are in dire straights.
After all, these companies have operations in factories outside the US with union representation that aren't hobbled by such things.
They still make cars in Michigan? Ya learn something new every day.
"the domestic auto companies hobbled by a fucked up healthcare system are in dire straights."
Right Pseudomonas,
The "fucked up" U.S. health care system is what differentiates Toyota's profitable U.S. operations from Ford's. Oh, wait -- that can't be, since they're both in the U.S. and thus both affected by the same health care system. So what could be the difference? Let's see: Ford has a particularly debilitating version of the sort of old-school union Barack Obama thinks is the answer income inequality (the UAW), and Toyota's American operations don't.
Fred --
What percentage of Toyota's workforce is in the US? What percentage of Ford's workforce is in the US?
NPR's coverage of the Michigan primary has focused almost exclusively on the economy, and the bad times in the state. As it should, because that's what was on voters' minds.
Everyone remember: Not all media are the same.
Fred has never heard of legacy health care costs. That is because Fred is an ignoramus.
"[T]he rising cost of health care coverage and our high proportion of retirees compared to more recent entrants to U.S. markets puts us at a competitive disadvantage. It is estimated that Ford's health care costs add about $1,200 to the cost of each vehicle built in the United States."
http://www.ford.com/aboutford/microsites/sustainability-report-2006-07/finPerformanceHealthcare.htm
I feel like this whole "entire auto industry in collapse" story has been pretty widely reported.
Political points above aside, it's not the auto industry that's in collapse, it's the domestic-owned auto industry. Toyota is doing just great.
Those exit poll pre-result questions are how they signal who they think won before they formally make the call. "voters care about economy" was the code for Romney won, since he made it an issue. They were doing the same thing in New Hampshire (using Hillary's good positive/negative ratio as the hint).
Hey, it's "dire straits," guys, like the group.
Let's not misspell our cliches.
"What percentage of Toyota's workforce is in the US? What percentage of Ford's workforce is in the US?"
Toyota and Ford both have operations in a number of countries; how many they have where is irrelevant to my point, which was that Toyota's American operations are profitable, and Ford's aren't.
"Fred has never heard of legacy health care costs. That is because Fred is an ignoramus."
1) Ford's legacy health costs are a result of overly-generous retiree benefits (e.g., no co-pays) demanded by the UAW.
2) Ford execs blow smoke about health care costs because A) they can't speak openly about how debilitating the UAW is; B) they don't want to acknowledge their own profligacy and mismanagement; C) it's too embarrassing to draw attention to other UAW-imposed handicaps like the "Jobs Bank".
A broader point about Michigan's economy: it's not as if new auto factories aren't being built in America -- they are being built, just not in Michigan. Honda is building a new plant in Indiana; start-up electric car maker Tesla Motors is building a factory in New Mexico, etc. Why not in Michigan?
Although some small design facilities have been built in Michigan, foreign and start-up automakers aren't building factories there because of the liberal Democratic policies that prevail in Michigan: high-taxes, and excessive unionism. Why would we be better off if a Democratic president tried to expand those policies from Michigan to the whole country?
They know that the auto industry is dying, and they know that it's centered in Detroit, but to realize that Michigan would feel reprecussions is about a bridge and a half too far for the Coastal media to think on a Midwest issue.
Ford, GM & Chrysler's problems go well beyond the UAW & pensions. Anyway, passing laws making it easier to organize would just mitigate the advantage non-union plants have over union ones.
Also, whoever blames Michigan's problems on "liberal Democratic policies" is ignorant of Michigan politics: Michigan had a Republican governor, John Engler, from 1991-2002 who was the darling of conservatives and its legislature has generally been under Republican control the past decade.
excessive unionism = more than zero unions
" the domestic auto companies hobbled by a fucked up healthcare system are in dire straights."
Very true. When the head of the UAW (according to a good Malcolm Gladwell article) proposed having the government take on Detroit's healthcare costs and pension burdens, but the CEO's turned that down because they feared this would give them too little power despite agreeing with the plan on its merits. Also, considering that Toyota decided to open a plant in Ontario instead of Alabama not too long ago because of Canada's universal healthcare system and better education system, Fred's point cuts against him. Detroit is also bad at adapting their cars to foreign markets (easily break down in dusty conditions, etc.), which can't be completely blamed on their healthcare and pension burdens.
Re: they can't speak openly about how debilitating the UAW is
This anti-union riff may have had some validity 30 years ago, but today it doesn't. The UAW has bent over backward to accommodate Ford and GM. Ford and GM (and Chrysler) are in trouble because they are not building cars Americans want to buy. For years they laughed all the way to the bank from their profits off SUVs, but short-sightedly failed to have high fuel mileage vehicles waiting in the wings for when gas prices soared. Now the Hummers are rusting on the sales lots and the Big Three have nothing to put in their place. They failed to learn the lessons of the late 70s. Bad management, pure and simple, not bad unions.
Re: Although some small design facilities have been built in Michigan, foreign and start-up automakers aren't building factories there because of the liberal Democratic policies that prevail in Michigan
Michigan had a (rather popular) GOP governor in office all through the 90s and the state legislature was GOP dominated until even more recently. At the state level Michigan is not a liberal Democratic state. Also, Honda Toyota and Mazda have all sited factories in Michigan.
"The UAW has bent over backward to accommodate Ford and GM. Ford and GM (and Chrysler) are in trouble because they are not building cars Americans want to buy."
When the UAW still demands that thousands of superfluous workers get paid to play cards all day in the "Jobs Bank", it strains credulity to characterize to say they have "bent over backward". The higher labor costs imposed by the UAW force Ford, GM, and Chrysler to try to save money on materials on the lower-margin sedans. Have you rented a Ford recently? Notice the chintzy vinyl interiors on their base models? Thank the UAW for that cost-cutting. The only vehicles with the profit margins to absorb these labor costs are trucks and SUVs, which is why the domestic auto makers build stuff like Escalades and F-150s.
"Also, Honda Toyota and Mazda have all sited factories in Michigan."
Links?
That's "bated."
No, "baited" is correct in this instance--theyv'e been eating worms . . .
Hah, this is a rather amusing conversation. It is true, the average Joe, even in the Midwest (or hinterland or great lakes region if you will) doesn't realize that Michigan has been in a recession since 2001 and never got back on its feet during the "recovery" and housing bubble.
For Fred:
http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0503/27/A01-130344.htm
What the others are telling you is true Fred, Michigan's economy was run into the ground by Engler and the Republicans. Your red state/blue state metric doesn't work in Michigan. Even in Granholm's first term the legislature was Republican. Now I blame Granholm for being weak and not supporting schools, but also the Republicans for not fixing Engler's mistakes and raising taxes on the rich.
A side note of course is this is why flat taxes are bad.
The UAW has bent over backward to accommodate Ford and GM. Ford and GM (and Chrysler) are in trouble because they are not building cars Americans want to buy.
Indeed. There's a long-standing lack of managerial nimbleness for Ford and GM's US operations, which means you get the perpetuation of stagnant lines and marques -- who the fuck buys a Mercury, even with the spokesmodel? -- and limited absorption of the innovation that happens overseas. Some of it's a grandfathered stagnation -- investment in production lines that can't easily be switched to reflect changing market demand. The problem at the low end is that Ford and GM have never taken it seriously inside the US, and that's an executive decision, influenced in part by sunk costs.
This is not unfamiliar to those who pay attention. Assembly isn't an issue any more for the Detroit makers: parts supply, design, product cycle, and model consolidation are.
But it's all the union's fault, says 'Fred'. And that's because 'Fred' is a dishonest hack.
Also about the medium three: the only profitable vehicles they make are the big trucks and SUVs. As an example, see GM's Chevy Cavalier. GM lost money on every one of those they ever sold. So why did they sell a car for decades that did not make money? So they could meet CAFE requirements and sell more SUVs and trucks, which are their profit making vehicles. The fact that they basically conceded the small car market was stupid on the part of the execs. They learned nothing from the 70s, and now they are paying for it again.
Not just the automotive factories need help. What about the Graphic Design factories, Communication Factories, and the paper mills? We are the " Great Lakes State" we should have so many factories surrounding these lakes. Use the natural resources that we have. My parents have been working at I.P.C. printing and communication services for 20yrs. and they have down sized so much that you never know if you are going to have a job. So these companies then hire in temps. So they don't have to pay for benefits, or any thing else. OH! Then GOD for bid any buisness, company, or corperation allow for a employee get over time. Middleclass people can't even get a home and the average yr to date gross is between $18,000.00 - $30,000.00 if that. How can we grow as a people if we can't grow as a state? I'm 27 and don't know if i should by a home here. Not just that but can I survive? Could I even start a family in this state? I'm not sure, but I do know this something needs to happen for Michigan or there wont really be a Michigan any more.
Comments closed January 29, 2008.
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Heads in the Sand
People on TV are incredibly stupid, or at least pretend to be.
Posted by blah | January 15, 2008 8:55 PM