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Ledeen on Goldberg

17 Jan 2008 08:34 am

Michael Ledeen, who has some bizarre views about the Middle East but indisputably knows a lot about fascism, has a worthwhile pan of Liberal Fascism made all the more devastating by the fact that Ledeen's no liberal but is unfailingly polite to Goldberg. Highlights:

The great masterpiece that drew the blood lines from Robespierre to modern mass movements and regimes, is Jacob Talmon’s “The Origins of Totalitarian Democracy,” now nearly half a century old. There’s no evidence that Jonah has read it. [...] It doesn’t seem that Jonah is aware of this literature. [...] What is missing from Jonah’s book—he mentions it in passing a few times, but never gives it the weight it deserves—is the specific historical context from which fascism was born [...] Jonah, instead, says (pg. 80) “Fascism, at its core, is the view that every nook and cranny of society should work together in spiritual union toward the same goals overseen by the state.” That is not fascism [...] Just a few lines later, he claims that “Woodrow Wilson was the twentieth century’s first fascist dictator,” and that’s just silly. [...] Jonah trivializes Nazi racism [...] The best that can be said about this is that it’s imaginative. But it’s what happens when you are bound and determined to put liberals, Socialists, Communists, fascists and Nazis into a common political home.

It's not a very good book.

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Comments (52)

Ledeen's just pissed that Goldberg's trying to sully the good name of fascism by putting it next to the word "liberal."

Re Jonah Goldberg

"Just a few lines later, he claims that “Woodrow Wilson was the twentieth century’s first fascist dictator,"

That's certainly a different slant on things. What does Mr. Goldberg have to say about his mothers' alleged lover, Harry Truman?

What does Mr. Goldberg have to say about his mothers' alleged lover, Harry Truman?

Wait, what? Lucianne was the Monica Lewinsky of the 1950s?

I saw him speak at Borders Tuesday night. He lumps every president from FDR through Nixon under the mantle of "liberal fascism." I actually asked him about it, something along the lines of: "you concede that everything from FDR to Nixon is liberal fascism. Because liberal fascism produced the WW2-to-Watergate golden age of American peace, prosperity and freedom, then what exactly is wrong with fascism?" but he didn't give me a direct answer at all. I feel like even if you took his book seriously, on its own terms it does quite a bit to make conservatism look totally irrelevant to the 20th century.

He has a chapter in his book called "we're all fascists" or something but it doesn't deal with the fascism of the right whatsoever. He defends this by saying he's "telling the story he wants to tell." I think that speaks for itself. To Jonah, fascism appears to just mean having the national government do stuff. It's totally incoherent. Like Matthew says, it's not a very good book.

It's not a very good book.

Are you sure? Perhaps we could have another fifty posts about it so we can reach some consensus on this point.

Ledeen's just pissed that Goldberg's trying to sully the good name of fascism by putting it next to the word "liberal."

Arguably true.

It's a terrible book and a bit depressing that it's selling so well. I'm sure that Adam Bellow is proud of what he's put over the American public.

Interesting that Goldberg is willing to apply the fascist label to Nixon. His mother, Lucianne, was a paid spy for the vile Nixon administration. She pretended to be a journalist and reported on the inner workings of the failed McGovern effort in '72. Does this mean the Jonah was suckled on the fascist tit? This might explain a few things.

Please give Jonah a break. He is an idiot. Atrios shamed him into finishing his book. Jonah under pressure did what he does best: garbage in, garbage out.

Why are you so obsessed about this book?

Does anyone give a fuck? Even the clerks at Borders know this book is a piece of shit and not worth stocking. So it is not like anyone has a reality based decision they have to make when confronting the choice of which right wing bloviating fuckwad to take home for a cuddle.

I agree completely with Elvis Elvisberg.

From the beginning I anticipated a dissent by Ledeen because Goldbutt was actually belittling the true and noble fascism Ledeen loved.

But then Jo'berg doesn't actually care about "fascism" as a historical phenomenon, because it means whatever he wishes it to mean -- and I'm not saying that as an insult, I mean that literally for anyone who heard him on Thom Hartmann yesterday: "I actually came up with my own definition" and it turns out to be some sort of vague notion of totalitarianism either in fact or in partial reminder.

Ledeen should feel much better, because Jobutt isn't actually insulting Ledeen's dreamy Italian fascism, he's just demanding the right to apply to word "fascism" to anything which to Goldbuzzard feels unfairly totalitarian.

"It's not a very good book."

From the point of view of finding its audience and making Mr. Goldberg money, it is a great book. It wans't intended as history, or insight; it's purpose was invective wrapped in a pseudo-intellectual frame. So that the right-wing, fascist-prone audience for which it was intended would buy it, and then use the epithet against the people they hate. Fascism is so universally hated and despised (more than communism by the way) that these would be fascists need to detoxify the term and/or use it to condemn actual anti-fascists.

What does Mr. Goldberg have to say about his mothers' alleged lover, Harry Truman?

Hmm, not Truman, but LBJ:

"Decades later, Jeffrey Toobin's book A Vast Conspiracy alleged that Goldberg claimed to friends that she had an affair with Lyndon Johnson while working in the White House. [1] After Goldberg threatened Random House with a libel suit, a Washington Post writer claimed he and others overheard her bragging about an affair with Vice President Hubert Humphrey as well. Goldberg denied both affairs and denied telling any such stories."

Still, interesting.

It is the greatest book ever written

It's not a very good book.

word.

What are the most salient characteristics of fascism? Militarism, hyper-nationalism and paternalism. The right – to include the National Review – the magazine that gave Goldberg a home – routinely excoriates the left for being pacifistic, anti-American and maternal (the term “nanny-state” isn’t meant to conjure up images of machismo, is it now?) Which is it? Is the left the former, or the latter? It can’t be both so please Jonah, and all you wingnuts, pick a smear and stick with it.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought Goldberg recently listed Ledeen as one of the scholars who *agreed* with his book. If so, it reminds me of when Ann Coulter defended McCarthy in part by repeatedly citing fellow-wingnut Ron Radosh's research, and Radosh ended up writing a review slamming Coulter's book precisely because she misrepresented the historical evidence with regards to McCarthy.

Of course, Goldberg's whole shtick is that those lame-brained academics have fascism all wrong, so he'll pretend to accept their critiques with relish. (Ledeen's not an academic, but to the extent he was, it was all about his research into fascism.)

"Arguably true."

Ledeen hits it sideways when he notes in passing that the boring reformers Goldberg stalks are hardly the stuff of fascism.

Bob, it is clear your knowledge of fascism's development is lacking. I'd recommend 'liberal fascism' by best selling author Jonah Goldberg.

Maybe Richard Cohen can write a column calling for a "Sister Souljah" moment from the GOP nominees, demanding that they distance themselves from the vile, false rantings coming from the party's base.

You can be more charitable to Ledeen than earlier comments and simply say that he wanted his review to make clear that, while an author of a number of books and articles on all that was vibrant and modern about the Italian fascist movement, he had absolutely fucking nothing to do with the intellectual genesis and development of this book. In case you were wondering. Because you were, weren't you? So, you can stop right now.

He's washing his hands of it. After all, he has more important things to do, and the important thing is that Jonah makes enough money from this piece of shit to ensure he's around to peddle the next war Ledeen wants to arrange.

I finally read Ledeen's review, and it is devastating. It seems pretty clear that if Ledeen and Goldberg weren't friends, and if Goldberg wasn't Ledeen's "boss" (Ledeen's word) at NR, that Ledeen would have been merciless in mocking Goldberg's research and historical understanding. As it is, his criticism is very harsh. It is just couched in very polite language. Ledeen's clearly bending over backwards to not explicitly call the entire book a misguided piece of garbage, but it comes through, nonetheless.

Goldberg will likely respond in kind, unlike his name-calling responses to Neiwert's and Yglesias' reviews.

Re Phaedrus

She also, at least at one time, claimed to have had a liaison with Harry Truman (apparently, in her imagination, a one night stand).

From Ledeen's piece, this passage has echoes of the present, although the opposite of what Young Goldberg is thinking:

Fascism was created in the trenches of that war, it was a war ideology from beginning to end, and the central core of fascism was composed of two basic concepts: first the conviction that the only people worthy of political power were those who had been tested and proven in combat (for the most part, the brownshirts were veterans, and the Socialists they attacked had been pacifists or neutralists or isolationists). And second, that the essence of Western civilization was under siege from the left, that is, from Communists and Socialists.

If only Goldbutt had been around way back when to make the fascists understand that they and the communists and the New Dealers were all part of one, big, happy fascist family, and why couldn't they all just get along?

After the pre-release take downs of this tripe and the post-release 'instant analysis' that confirmed the book as tripe, I think the continued discussion has to do with the underlying them of wingnut welfare.

This book seems to be selling like hotcakes despite the fact that there are millions of unpublished books of better quality languishing out there for lack of a publisher. In a country where we are constantly deriding the average American for not meriting a better wage and always devaluing their labor, it is all the more galling that this less-than-mediocre screed is going to make Goldberg even richer. And as our bloggers show us daily, they are, at their worst, better writers and thinkers than Goldberg on his best day and yet Goldberg gets a publishing deal and despite the fact that the book stinks he is making out like a bandit.

I think this line of attack is important. The more people understand that we don't live in a meritocracy and that most rich people are rich not because of any inherent qualities most of us would consider worthy of merit, the sooner we understand the dynamic of the class warfare that is being waged against us by the leaders of the right.

I support the posts about "Liberal Fascism," despite the complaints. They're entertaining. It's hilarious to watch Goldberg fumble. This is a blog, not a newspaper, so it's not like there's a limited amount of space or the content is all that serious in the first place.

If I thought ignoring Goldberg would make him go away, I'd be all for it, but it doesn't work that way. Right now he gets as much respect as, I don't know, some A-list pundit who deserves to be A-list if you can think of any, while he has the politics of Rush Limbaugh and the brains of PInky. Us more-or-less educated politically interested liberals are a sub-sub-group; ignoring him won't change the respect he gets, but a combination of ridicule and strong arguments against him could very well make reviews like Ledeen's more likely and more acceptable.

If you missed The Daily Show last night, watch it tonight on the early evening re-run. Goldberg, in all his pathetic cowardice, essentially admits that the book's title, thesis, and cover art are what they are only because he craves the attention and needed to say some crazy, illogical shit to make some money.

Militant atheist, liberal fascist... it's all the same bullshit.

the central core of fascism was composed of two basic concepts: first the conviction that the only people worthy of political power were those who had been tested and proven in combat

Well, in that case the current Republican administration hardly qualifies as fascist now, does it?

This is a blog, not a newspaper, so it's not like there's a limited amount of space or the content is all that serious in the first place.

OT and I've said it before, but when a blog's signal-to-noise ratio gets too high--either in posts or comments--I de-bookmark it. I've got better things to do than to scan a bushel of chaff for a grain of wheat.

a blog's signal-to-noise ratio gets too high--either in posts or comments--I de-bookmark it

Ouch! That's gotta hurt.

"Too low," I suppose you mean.

Matt Yglesias on Jonah Goldberg's book, Liberal Fascism: "a very good book."

You gave him a blurb!

... but you won't start talking about it.

*stop.

Stupid Freudian slip.

Goldberg's goal was to peel the fascist label off of right wing conservative and attach it back where it belongs on left wing liberal.

But Fascism really doesn't fit all that well along the crude left right spectrum. So the second half of his attempt ,to label the American left as Fascist, isn't gonna work all that well.

'What makes Jonah Goldberg the premier thinker of the age is that he isn't interested in advancing a thesis. He's interested in refuting a certain line of argument while simultaneously reaffirming it. In the case of Liberal Fascism, he argues that one mode of Reductio ad Hitlerum is incoherent ("conservatives are fascists") while another is informative ("liberals are fascists"). Positions like these can only be held by the subtlest of minds.'

So he is 1/2 successful.

And while the second half of his attempt is pretty silly the reaction is fun to watch. Watching the folks who are all too willing to unfairly label right wing conservative as fascist at the drop of hat bitch, moan, wail, and gnash their teeth at being unfairly labeled a fascist is extremely amusing.

'What makes Matthew Ygelias and his commentators the premier thinkers of the age is that they aren't interested in refuting a thesis. They are interested in refuting a certain line of argument while simultaneously reaffirming it. In the case against Liberal Fascism, they argue that one mode of Reductio ad Hitlerum is incoherent ("liberals are fascists") while another is informative ("conservatives are fascists"). Positions like these can only be held by the subtlest of minds.'


Ledeen is to be commended for calling a spade a spade, despite the relationship he has with Goldberg. He was polite but firm. He IS an authority on fascism, and it is only logical his inner historian (right-wing as it may be) reacted against Goldberg's tripe. I never thought I would ever come to Ledeen's defense in my life, but not doing so would only make me the same as the pathetic tribalistic conservatives who are calling this grotesque jumble masquerading (and poorly at that) as history as "brilliant", as Rich Lowry has done. Goldberg craves respectability, yet he is now further away from it than he ever has been. The poor wretched clown.

Jeez, did anybody seriously expect a major work of scholarship from this guy? According to Wikipedia: He went to a women's college, interned at some news desks and the AEI, taught English for a year in a foreign country (I knew people who did this in school, mostly trust fund babies with no debt), and has spent the past few years at NRO hacking it up.

The guy's background has nothing, literally nothing to suggest he could have tackled this very difficult and complex subject properly. In fact, there is little or nothing to suggest he would even have attained 1/100th of his current success without his mom's connections in the wingnut world.

So I guess nobody is surprised the book is so bad, it's that the book is much worse than one could have ever thought or hoped for.

The guy's background has nothing, literally nothing to suggest he could have tackled this very difficult and complex subject properly.

In other words, it is just like Michelle Malkin getting ripped apart by scholars that actually know about Japanese internment.

Look, part of the problem here is that the right-wing has believed its own BS about how the academy is a left-wing version of the way right wing think tanks are run, i.e., people are rewarded for coming to preordained conclusions, dissenters are driven out, everything must follow the party line, etc. What Goldberg and Malkin have discovered is that, no, good scholars tend to actually know what they are talking about and have their facts straight (even if one may disagree with their arguments and conclusions).

Want to see how the right wing reacts to this charge? Read this thread:

http://volokh.com/posts/1200411528.shtml

Everyone says how dumb he is, but he's rasing his public profile bigtime AND making a bunch of money. Plus he's done a service for his side, by giving them a catchy lable to hit liberals with. That really is an art and a science, the lable making. Limbaugh is pretty good at it. Coulter and Malkin attempt it. But then how much of that is editors? Anyway, he's taken it to the next level as a public conservative. The actual contents of the book are probably irrelevant.


Shorter Michael Ledeen:

Opening paragraph: Goldberg is my buddy and my boss. His book is fun.

The twelve middle paragraphs: In sum, Goldberg's thesis is full of shit.

Closing paragraph: Goldberg got, at least, one thing right in his 400+ page book.

Michael Ledeen, who has some bizarre views about the Middle East but indisputably knows a lot about fascism,

Ledeen's a nut whom I've heard use the word 'Iranofascism.'

It's also worth noting that Wilson is God to Ledeen, biasing him against Goldberg's argument from the start. You should take Ledeen's views on Goldberg's book even less seriously than you're taking Goldberg's book.

"Wilson is God to Ledeen."
--Shinyk

"I am second to no one in my antipathy for Wilson—I once wrote a book that lambasted him for his stupid politics after the War."
--Ledeen

I don't take Ledeen's views on politics particularly seriously, but I see no reason not to take him at his word regarding his own views.

I wonder what the reaction would be if Rube Goldberg wrote a book calling the Holocaust a Jewish conspiracy. In fact, he is saying this indirectly anyway. Since "Jew" was interchangeable with "liberal," "communist," and "socialist" in Fascist states. According to him, then, the Jews were really fascists (because liberals are fascists and even though the main enemy of fascists were liberals, jews, and the Left generally, they didn't realize that they were attacking themselves -- silly fascists). This is the sort of daft and dizzying "logic" behind his book.

He could have saved 400+ pages and just written: "Anyone I don't like is a fascist. The end."

I don't take Ledeen's views on politics particularly seriously, but I see no reason not to take him at his word regarding his own views.

I stand corrected and seem to have confused my Neocons.

Goldberg, foolishly, tries to respond to Ledeen, and gets tooled: http://instaputz.blogspot.com/2008/01/translation-from-goldberg-speak-to.html

By the way, if you want to see someone discussing these issues who actually knows something about them, I highly recommend this lecture by Thomas Laqueur of Berkeley.

http://webcast.berkeley.edu/stream.php?type=real&webcastid=16367 (real player) This lecture is entitled, "Culture As Politics In The 1920s."

The audio is a little low for the first minute or so.

He goes through everything that Rube Goldberg is supposedly addressing: where to place fascism in the left-right continuum, why was Nazism "socialist," similarities and differences between communism and fascism.

The full course is here:

http://webcast.berkeley.edu/course_details.php?seriesid=1906978348

Anyway, he argues that fascism was a new kind of right anti-politics, that did initially have some appeal to "progressives," even at Berkeley. This is 100 miles from what Goldberg is arguing, however.

Ledeen's a nut whom I've heard use the word 'Iranofascism.'

Back when Ledeen was an academic historian, his specialization was Italian fascism. You can think him an insidious, caustic presence in American politics, but he knows his Italian fascism.

Like I said upthread, Ledeen's review makes one thing clear: he doesn't want to be considered the intellectual forebear of Jonah's book. For Goldberg to whine that Ledeen is 'too close' to the subject -- and dear me, that rebuttal is chock-full of horseshit -- reveals how much of a hack he is.

Two cheers to Ledeen. He's still well aware what Jonah is doing, and sees it as none of his business: let the hacks sell books to the rubes, while he gets on with the wars that kill the rubes' kids.

I stand corrected and seem to have confused my Neocons.

Then again, maybe not.

Ledeen chairs the Woodrow Wilson Center for Middle East Policy, whose mission is "to commemorate the ideals and concerns of Woodrow Wilson".

Nthing the recommendation for that Laqueur lecture, which situates the politics of the 1920s squarely in its place, as a multi-faceted reaction to the laissez-faire consensus that led Europe over the precipice in 1914. I'm pretty sure that in previous years he called it something like 'The Failure of Politics Between the Wars', which is also a good description of what happened.

Shinyk, there's no mention of Ledeen on the Wilson Center's website. Where do you get the idea that Ledeen works for them?

Matt,

Speaking of good books that are infinitely more relevant to what you write about each day, are you ever going to read "Dreams from My Father: A Story of Race and Inheritance"?

I support the posts about "Liberal Fascism," despite the complaints. They're entertaining. It's hilarious to watch Goldberg fumble.

This is true. Seeing Jonah get picked on makes me smile. That it's in the service of truth is nice and all, but I really enjoy the George Costanzaneity of it all.

SomeGuy wrote: "And while the second half of his attempt is pretty silly the reaction is fun to watch. Watching the folks who are all too willing to unfairly label right wing conservative as fascist at the drop of hat bitch, moan, wail, and gnash their teeth at being unfairly labeled a fascist is extremely amusing."
Look, I know a lot of freshmen at Brown and Berkeley love throwing the term around, but Goldberg's book is taken quite seriously on the right. Show me the serious works on the left arguing modern day American conservatives are, not just fascistic in some ways, but a direct outgrowth of fascism and fascists hiding under other names.
Anyone can play the game of saying “here’s something Italian Fascists believed in that the right/left in America believes in today”? Of course. But that’s not Jonahs thesis. He is arguing that modern left-wing thought in America is a direct outgrowth of fascism. That goes far beyond the annoying game played by many on the left – and not a not a few on the right – over the years.


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