I went to the Washington Auto Show last night which I was expecting to be interesting but wasn't. It did, however, get me thinking about cars. Specifically taxis. Specifically, why don't I see more hybrids being used as cabs. A hybrid is more expensive than a conventional car, but it uses less fuel which saves you money. Thus if you drive a lot, a hybrid can save you money. And what kind of car puts on more miles than a taxi? Plus, they're mostly city miles where hybrids are super-duper efficient. Or maybe there are Prius cabs all over the country and DC's just behind the curve.
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Taxicab Query
25 Jan 2008 08:36 am
Comments (58)
Complexity and lack of proven long-term performance?
Over the holidays in the Pacific Northwest, my brother told me they have Prius cabs in Vancouver, BC.
Cabs need to be spacious. Hybrids are teeny.
I dunno, Freddie. This study seems to contradict that link you can't find (their assumptions about fuel prices seem pretty questionable, but in a way that would make hybrids seem less efficient than they actually will be):
A new study by Edmunds.Com finds that some hybrid cars will pay for themselves in 2 years, because high gas prices and tax credits from the U.S. government on the more fuel efficient vehicles. The cost is even more quickly recovered when hybrids are compared to less efficient cars. Also, the study assumes that gas prices will remain at $3 per gallon in the coming years.Edmunds says the average hybrid car costs $1,200 and $7,000 more than traditional versions of the same vehicles.
The shift is significant because analysts have said that higher sticker prices were constraining hybrid sales. Hybrids currently account for 1 percent of new car sales in the United States. The consumer-focused Web site said that assuming vehicles were driven 15,000 miles per year and gas was priced at $3 per gallon, owners of the Toyota Prius and Ford Motor's Escape Hybrid would break even within three years.
I was in New York City over the long weekend and saw a Prius Cab. It strikes me that cities are the best environment for hybrids, because their mileage is highest in city driving.
However, echoing Freddie, it wouldn't surprise me if the economics of getting a Prius over a Ford Crown Victoria didn't quite pan out.
Bloomberg is helping the companies swap in Ford Escape hybrids in NYC.
I dunno, Freddie. This study seems to contradict that link you can't find
You're right, that does contradict the earlier article. I think specifically for this question, it's probably still a matter of not having the cash (or credit) available to lay out the initial investment, no matter how profitable in the long run. But if that study is accurate then that's a pretty big deal; for a long time, buying a hybrid strictly on economic grounds didn't pan out. But it appears that may have changed.
Here's one reason there might not be that many hybrid taxis on the road.
"These
vehicles are in the first years of use and ques-
tions regarding their durability as 24-hour,
seven-day-a-week vehicles have yet to be fully
answered."
That's from PlaNYC 2030, Bloomberg's sustainability initiative for NYC. However, there are a number of hybrid taxis in NYC now. They're not too uncommon a sight to see.
While we're at it, does anyone know if someone's trying to make a hybrid semi? Or are they already pretty fuel efficient for what we're asking them to do?
Cabs need to run forever and be cheap to fix. Additionally, there are economies of scale in terms of the installed base because using more and more of the same car means a deeper well of expertise at your body shop and more spare/interchangeable parts floating around. Hybrids don't fit the bill on any of these and I suspect they're only being used as cabs where their use is subsidized by city governnment
I mean, if gas consumption was the primary driver behind cab expenses why would you see so many crown vics? Those things are boats. I think you could fit a prius in one of their trunks
To reiterate what others have said, hybrids are being phased into service in NYC. Maybe it is simply that DC is behind the times.
Hybrids are starting to appear in the NYC taxi fleet. The last round of medallion (license) auctions was limited to hybrids,and there are proposals to convert the whole fleet.
The Taxi Commission had to change some of the rules to allow hybrids, notably the requirement for a barrier between the driver and passengers.
With higher fuel prices, hybrids will begin to look pretty good compared to a V8 Crown Vic for taxi use. If the "break even" point is 200,000 miles (as someone suggested above), they should work right now.
Hybrids, (Prius, Escapes and others) are all over New York, to say it again. A typical cab does Well over 220k miles in a year, and remember that hybrids do even better in stop and go traffic situations. you are talking about cabs getting double and triple their previous mileage, at $3.79/gallon. Every cabbie I've asked (I'm a nosy busybody dork) has said it saves them tons.
In the UK, the unlicensed minicabs--the ones that aren't allowed to pick up fares on the street but can operate a call number for you to have them pick you up at, say, the grocery--almost all tend to be tiny, fuel-efficient cars. It's a weird experience at first to get into what looks and feels like an ordinary car--and in these cases don't even have meters--but I assume they save a ton of money over the big saloon cars that the licensed cabbies are required to drive.
As noted above, hybrids are increasingly common here in NYC. This is partly due to government incentives (such as restricting medalion sales etc).
A couple notes:
The expense of repair and reliability are certainly issues as noted above.
Fleet cars commonly operate in a particular fashion. One garage owns a number of taxis. They rent out the car with medalion for a fixed $/hour for a 12 hr shift. The fleet pays for the cabs and the upkeep. Driver pays for gas and rental, anything over that they keep. So since the gas is born by the driver, the company has no incentive to purchase fuel efficient vehicles. The company is looking for vehicles that are cheap to obtain and maintain. This is largely a factor of ease and availabiliy of favorable leasing, average price to employ a mechanic skilled in maintaining that vehicle type, and average cost of replacement parts.
Incidentally, some similar problems exist for promoting energy efficient appliances. My rental unit came with a refrigerator and microwave, new, paid for by the landlord. I pay for electricity. Think the landlord was willing to pay extra for a the most energy efficient units?
Note that a large percentage of cabs in New York are owner operated. My guess is that most of the hybrids you see are because then they have an incentive to pick more fuel efficient vehicles.
Interesting trivia: not all fleet cars have advertising, but taxi cabs with advertisements on the roof (those little triangles or the espn tickers etc) are always (in my experience) fleet cars. Owner operators don't have the economies of scale to sell advertising.
NY has a list of cars that can be used as taxis. The city is pushing hybrids by things such as the medallion auction. DC has very little regulation of the fleet. No medallions (Yay!). No list of approved vehicles. Lousy inspection and oversight (Boo!). So many DC drivers (many independents) go for cheap, used, cop cars.
An even stronger case can me made for using all electric mailman mobiles, but we don't have those either. The routes are known in advance and limited to a reasonable mileage, there is lots of idling, and the trucks all come back to a central depot where they could be recharged every night.
Just another example of inaction in action.
"A typical cab does Well over 220k miles in a year, '
No they don't. That's equivalent to 25 mph 24 hours a day, 365 days a year.
"...why don't I see more hybrids being used as cabs."
Hybrids are too fucking small, folks. They can only hold two small children in the back seat, much less a couple of adult cab riders. They have little cargo space, and are hard to get in and out of unless you ride in the front.
At some point, we need some engineering to be done in the car industry, or else we're all gonna be driving 18mpg vehicles for the rest of our life.
I live in Lincoln, Nebraska, and we've got Prius cabs here. I think they make the most sense in communities like ours: fair sized, but still pretty small (250k), lots of sprawl, and a low demand for taxis. They're not the giant fleet that a city like NY would have, so you don't need to try to maintain thousands of them. Meanwhile, with fewer trips made per cabbie, you need to be sure to get the maximum efficiency...
A handful of places are beginning to adopt hybrids as cabs, but for the most part not in a big way. After New York -- which does have some very impressive plans -- I believe the second-largest market for hybrid cabs is Arlington, Virginia, which has 85 hybrids in its fleet last I heard. Other than those two, I think the only American cities to have hit double-digit figures for hybrid taxis yet are Chicago and San Francisco.
As for DC, there is legislation pending in the DC City Council to phase in a requirement for hybrid cabs. However, it's likely to be an uphill struggle owing to the unusual structure of the DC cab industry. The DC cab industry is dominated by owner-operators to an extent unheard of anywhere else in America. While this has had many positive effects, it also means that cab companies in DC tend to be undercapitalized relative to their counterparts in comparable cities, and since DC has no limit on the number of cabs the drivers don't have a medallion to use as collateral for loans like they do elsewhere.
If the capitalization problem could be solved, though, DC would be a great city for hybrid cabs. Not only does it have the sort of stop-and-go traffic where hybrids get the best fuel efficiency advantage relative to traditional internal combustion engines, but, since most of the cabs are owner-operated, they're not driven 24/7 like they are in New York and so durability questions are likely to be less of an issue.
"Hybrids are too fucking small, folks. They can only hold two small children in the back seat, much less a couple of adult cab riders. They have little cargo space, and are hard to get in and out of unless you ride in the front.
Have you actually ever been in a Prius or Hybrid Escape? The Hybrid Escape is of course the same size as the regular Escape (i.e., certainly large enough to hold three adults + cargo), and the Prius is actually massive inside for a typical sedan (two adults fit more than comfortably). And no one who had actually been in one would characterize either as "hard to get in[to]".
1) yes, there are lots of hybrids in NYC
2) yes, there are programs to encourage replacement of old cabs with hybrids, although I don't know (or really care) how the work, and
3) no, the hybrid cabs are not noticeably smaller or less comfortable than the old cabs, at least in terms of space in the passenger compartment. The hybrid SUVs are actually quite roomy compared to a standard cab. I've only been in one of the hybrid sedans (no idea what it was) once, but it was only slightly smaller in the passenger area than a crown vic. I assume the trunks are considerably smaller, but...who cares? Tourists. To hell with 'em, I say.
4) I'm consistently shocked by how quiet the hybrids are. Part of that is a function of youth; they don't have the creaks and rattles of a car that's been on the road a couple years already, I guess. But mostly it's the engine, and I'm always surprised by how much of a difference it makes.
1) yes, there are lots of hybrids in NYC
2) yes, there are programs to encourage replacement of old cabs with hybrids, although I don't know (or really care) how the work, and
3) no, the hybrid cabs are not noticeably smaller or less comfortable than the old cabs, at least in terms of space in the passenger compartment. The hybrid SUVs are actually quite roomy compared to a standard cab. I've only been in one of the hybrid sedans (no idea what it was) once, but it was only slightly smaller in the passenger area than a crown vic. I assume the trunks are considerably smaller, but...who cares? Tourists. To hell with 'em, I say.
4) I'm consistently shocked by how quiet the hybrids are. Part of that is a function of youth; they don't have the creaks and rattles of a car that's been on the road a couple years already, I guess. But mostly it's the engine, and I'm always surprised by how much of a difference it makes.
"A typical cab does Well over 220k miles in a year,"
No they don't. That's equivalent to 25 mph 24 hours a day, 365 days a year.
Actually, that may well be accurate for some cities. Many New York cabs, for example, are driven around the calendar and around the clock by shifts of drivers. They only stop for passengers, refueling, repairs, and to switch drivers.
Hybrids are too fucking small, folks. They can only hold two small children in the back seat, much less a couple of adult cab riders. They have little cargo space, and are hard to get in and out of unless you ride in the front.
I think you might be looking at older models. DC actually used to prohibit hybrids from being used as taxicabs -- not because they were hybrids, but because no hybrid then sold could meet the minimum trunk space requirement. The newer models, though, pass the space requirements as well as other sedans.
Apologies for the formatting error on my post of 10:31 AM -- the first line of what appears to be my post is actually quoted material from a previous poster.
I think the cab companies have *long* term deals with Ford. It's a large portion of Ford's business so they probably do a lot to keep from losing that business to Toyota.
Here in Madison, they're introducing hybrid city buses. I haven't seen any hybrid cabs, though.
My Prius is massive. In fact, I thought about getting something even smaller. It's a hatchback, so there's beaucoup cargo space. It fits 5 adults comfortably, and I've fit more people in there when I am DD'ing my friends.
I also get around 42 miles a gallon, and since I live about 2 miles from my office, I fill up like every 6 weeks or something.
We're all waiting for you to post the photos we know you took of the booth babes.
The Crown Vics have remained basically unchanged since 1992. Suffice it to say most of the bugs have been worked out of the platform, Ford has already recouped any R&D and production startup costs many times over, and there are many of them on the road. This all adds up to a cheap, spacious, easily maintained vehicle that will take a lot of miles. Despite their crappy gas mileage, they have a lot going for them. Ford, however, is terminating production next year. Many police departments are already switching to other vehicles. As soon as the Crown Vic dominance of the market ends, a lot of cab companies are going to have to start re-evaluating their fleets, and hybrids may get more use at that point.
Matt, I am surprised you did not go to flickr and get a picture of a Prius cab. There are plenty.
What's amazing is how much more QUIET a hybrid is when it's in electric mode. I was crossing the street as one came up to the stoplight in electric mode, and it positively SNUCK UP on me.
Considering that noise is the #1 complaint in NYC, I think an eventual ban on non-electric cars (starting with cabs & buses and then eventually going into other areas with a congestion tax preference system), although people talk about the decrease in air pollution, what would really be life-altering would be the decrease in noise pollution.
The ceaseless noise of traffic in the city is absolutely awful, the worst feature of life here. It's amazing how much of that isn't horns, it's just the noise of engines--buses, trucks, cars.
I'm telling you, switch over cars to electric and future generations will wonder how we ever put up with the noise, just like we wonder how prior generations put up with the stink of horses.
there is one! though they only make airport trips:
www.planettran.com
There are hybrid taxis all over the provincial capital Victoria in British Columbia. Also, the regulation for taxis now requires all new licenses to go to clean-energy vehicles.
Eric over at Sightline Institute just had a post about increasing avg mpg for cabs. In Seattle, going from 12 mpg to 22 mpg would eliminate over 7 tons over carbon emissions per cab. Obviously 22 mpg is not too high and a Prius does better than that.
in San francisco (of course) we have a cab company called Green Taxi with an all-hybrid fleet.
Man, some of your commenters are way off on this issue.
Boston has a pretty big fleet of Toyota Camry hybrids, and the driver of every non-hybrid cab I ride in tells me how much he wishes he had a hybrid. I think a lot of the Boston cabbies lease their cabs from the cab company.
Camrys aren't huge, but they are plenty big enough for 99% of fares, including taking a couple people to/from the airport.
I believe the cab companies are responsible for a lot of the switch, and the city gave them incentives by allowing them to cut the line at the long taxi waiting pen at Logan airport, along with a few other things that I am not remembering offhand.
I have also read that old, basically pro-Ford regulations on taxi specifications are the reason for so many Crown Vics and are also a barrier for getting more hybrids in a lot of markets. I think NYC had some of that.
Definitely rode in a prius cab from Sea-Tac to downtown Seattle the other day. The driver said that his company (Yellow Cab) is doing a small-scale evaluation before committing to switching the fleet.
I think it is much more basic than whether is is good 24/7. Money. Most of these cabs are old and while drivers likely make ok money, a new car is likely not in their budget - even when they do get a new car (likely buy used). Heck, considering how DC cabbies were bitching and moaning about the cost of installing meters, getting a hybrid car is like asking for their first born child.
Some years back there was a DC cab company called Clean Air Cab that had cars that ran on natural gas. I haven't heard anything about it in ages, so I assume it failed.
I haven't noticed any Prius cabs in this country, but Vancouver, BC has a lot of them. Just another instance of the Canadians being smarter than us.
In Seattle, a lot of the Crown Vics run on Compressed Natural Gas (CNG). STITA, the Sea-Tac cab franchise holder, operates a fleet that is 100% CNG or hybrid.
"Actually, that may well be accurate for some cities. Many New York cabs, for example, are driven around the calendar and around the clock by shifts of drivers. They only stop for passengers, refueling, repairs, and to switch drivers."-Posted by cminus
They also stop for traffic and red lights ... sometimes
They average around 60,000 miles per year,
http://www.lawmall.com/NYCBallotInitiatives/NYCBI_15_IncreasedTaxiDriverPoints_091607.doc
less than 1/3 of the 220,000 number cited above. That's still enough to make even a 220,000 mile break-even point worthwhile, though.
re strand, I don't know about the situation in New York, but in the rest of the country taxi drivers slap down one or two grand for a crown vic at an auction. As far as I know most of them come from government fleets. (Look for a little hole by the driver's side mirror in many of them--that's where the cop's spotlight used to be. Or still is.)
As Jack and cminus said I think the main reason for not picking up hybrids is cost of entry. The fleet mechanic factor is totally true (altho in DC a lot of those guys probably got swept out by the stadium) but we actually have a large variety of makes and models on the road. With few exceptions, what they have in common is that they are cheap.
Here at the City of L.A. the standard motor pool car is a Honda Accord hybrid.
Here in developing Lima, Peru many of the smaller taxis have voluntarily switched over the natural gas tanks (which they have to store in the trunk area). Probably would not meet American safety regulations, but they get about 4x the mileage and gas costs about 1/3 of gasoline in Peru. Real easy economics...
I'm here to announce that there is indeed a hybrid cab in DC. I think it's a Prius. Anyway, I hailed it in Dupont Circle back in late December. It gave me a very green and quiet ride home. Unfortunately I misplaced the guy's card.
On a related note, for zipcars - short term/ frequent use car rentals, hybrids are *very* popular in DC - I see hybrid zipcars everywhere
Semi-truckers are VERY sensitive to fuel economy and fuel price. I will guess the reason there aren't semi trucks is because it's mostly highway driving, and therefore no chance to charge your batteries with regenerative braking. Trucks get good fuel economy, considering the weight they're carrying.
Reiterate it - www.planettran.com - airport trips in Boston and DC
Okay, they're not cabs, but Microsoft has a seemingly enormous fleet of shuttles of all sizes -- and all of the small size shuttles are Priuses. Seems perfect considering how short most of the trips are, and how low the speed of most of them.
Njorl, the petition says that New York taxicab drivers average about 60,000 miles per year, not New York taxicabs. If you've got one of those companies that's keeping the cars going 24/7, I'd guess it'd take three or four drivers working in shifts to keep a single taxi in service around the clock, which gives a rough range of 180,000 to 240,000 miles per year. 220,000 miles per year still sounds plausible for at least the upper end of the bell curve.
From Wikipedia:
"The Crown Victoria is also one of the few remaining automobiles which retains the traditional 2-bench 6 passenger seating layout"
"As one of the few remaining passenger cars with body-on-frame construction, it is rugged, and enables repairs after minor accidents without the need to straighten the chassis"
The Phoenix area has an all-hybrid taxi service known as Green Taxi Cab. The Web site shows how headroom and legroom are actually the same or better in a Toyota Prius as a Crown Victoria. www.GreenCabAZ.com.
Comments closed February 08, 2008.
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Heads in the Sand
If you're just talking straight economics, hybrids still don't make much sense. I can't find the link, unfortunately, but you have to drive a Prius something absurd like 220,000 miles under highly favorable conditions for the hybrid option to "pay for itself." Now, there's definitely something to be said for paying up front for cost efficiency later, and of course there's the environmental issue. But I don't think most cabbies, and certainly not cabbies looking to buy their first cab, are in the right sort of situation to be getting a Prius. Also remember that in some municipalities there are restrictions on the vehicles that can be used as cabs.
Posted by Freddie | January 25, 2008 8:59 AM