« Mapping South Carolina | Main | Compassion »

The Torture History

28 Jan 2008 09:13 am

Spencer Ackerman has a big ol' feature on the recent history of CIA interrogations putting the use of brutal and illegal contexts in broader context. Specifically, putting them in the broader context of the fact that the CIA actually has very little experience with interrogations and with best practices involved in doing them correctly. Consequently, you have an equation that involves people who don't really know what they're doing working under intense pressure with little practical constraint and faced with an objectively difficult task -- torture is the result. What isn't the result is much in the way of usable intelligence. Specifically, there's no way to tell what's accurate and what's not:

Many interrogators today are, in fact, concerned about that. But the program that developed within the Central Intelligence Agency after 9/11 has left the intelligence community playing a fateful role. Surprising as it may be, the CIA has never really been in the interrogation business. After 9/11, it turned its back on its own limited history of interrogations and never consulted those in the U.S. with solid experience in that difficult art. Even in the seven years since it has built an interrogation capability mostly from scratch, the agency has never applied the best practices in behavioral science to improve its regimen. The result has been to privilege brutality out of ignorance, which, according to many experts and insiders interviewed, means that interrogation practices that produce faulty information are now at the very heart of the U.S. efforts against a mysterious and still-unfamiliar enemy. [...]

Those with intimate knowledge of the program say that in many cases, U.S. interrogators haven’t even been able to learn the basics about many of those they hold or have held, to say nothing of whatever crucial information they possess. "How do you separate the sheep from the wool? There’s no fingerprints, no DNA," said a former senior intelligence official who helped set up the CIA’s interrogation program, and who would not speak for attribution. "You don’t know if you have Osama bin Laden or Joe Shit the rag-man."

Worse than a crime, to paraphrase Tallyrand, interrogation by the CIA has been—and remains—a blunder.

I had always thought "it was worse than a crime, it was a mistake" was something Joseph Fouché said (and his background in the secret police is more apropos given the subject of the article) but besides that it's an absolutely excellent piece. One area of inquiry that, for now, must remain shrouded in mystery and speculation is to what extent the problems with this approach are precisely what made them appealing to Bush. The US government has, after all, plenty of agencies who interrogate prisoners routinely and lots of interrogations have been done historically. If I had been President, I would have tasked such agencies with the new job.

That would have resulted in "non-physical, non-coercive techniques like building rapports with detainees—much like the FBI does, and much like what worked 60 years ago at places like Fort Hunt against hardened, sadistic Nazi officers." And it wouldn't have even resulted in that outcome because I'm an especially humane kind of guy. It's just that that is, in fact, what the FBI does and what the military did when it had to interrogate Nazis, etc. That's the process, the process works, and it doesn't raise any moral or legal qualms so it's all good. Why on earth would I turn to the CIA and have them re-invent the wheel? Well, I suppose Bush might have if deep down he's just the sort of person who likes the idea of torture and brutality; someone who at some level would be disappointed to hear an agency official not respond to 9/11 by immediately requesting permission to start torturing people.

But whatever the reason, it's just a huge, huge, huge mistake. Just as with surveillance policy, the Bush administration seems incapable of processing the idea that a certain level of formal constraint on what the security services are allowed to do may be necessary to make them work properly. Instead, the underlying presumption seems to be that transparency, the rule of law, accountability, etc. are all incredibly weaknesses in a system of government and that liberal democracies have been prevailing for the past couple of centuries despite the integral features of such a political system rather than because of them.

Share This

Comments (34)

I have a novel theory, Matt. Reading Jeffrey Goldberg's old article on 'unknown unknowns', he notes Michael Hayden's description of the NSA's noise to signal ratio:

"Our noise-to-signal ratio is twenty to one, that one being something useful," Hayden told me. "Not necessarily tactically useful, just remotely useful. But even this is misleading, because it's twenty to one after we've done all sorts of things to make it humanly intelligible. You have to collect, process, translate, move it down the funnel, transform it from noise into a signal, before you know if it's useful."

See, for this administration, if a noise-to-signal ratio of 20 to 1 is good, then 250 to 1 would be so much better! Who says this administration can't make improvements!

Apparently the idea that we didn't torture Nazi officers (even, or especially after, the war) isn't true, as a long stream of men with crushed testicles seems to show. Much of this, as I understand it, was done by the army. That, of course, doesn't make our current actions any more okay. The source on this is this book:
Giles MacDonogh’s After the Reich: The Brutal History of the Allied Occupation. I found out about it via this thread on Crooked Timber:
http://crookedtimber.org/2007/12/07/torture-in-germany-after-world-war-ii/

The problem with this sort of analysis is that it assumes that torture is part of intelligence gathering, to gain information. It also overlooks the CIA's rather extensive history of sponsoring torture and systematic research into torture techniques.

Not for one minute should anyone buy the 'overworked, inexperienced, pressured-into-it' rationalizations, which are retroactive ass-covering by CIA employees who fear accountability.

Agreed. Deep within Bush is a very twisted, sadistic person that revels in the pain of others.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Before Tucker was executed, there were pleas for clemency from Waly Bacre Ndiaye, the United Nations commissioner on summary and arbitrary executions, the World Council of Churches, Pope John Paul II, and Italian Prime Minister Romano Prodi, among other world figures. Unusual pleas came from conservative American political figures such as Newt Gingrich and Pat Robertson, interceding on her behalf. Tucker did not ask for a pardon, only commutation of her death sentence to life in prison. Huntsville Prison's warden testified that she was a model prisoner and that, after 14 years on death row, she likely had been reformed. Despite these pleas, Bush signed her death warrant. In 1999, during the 2000 Republican Presidential primary race, conservative commentator Tucker Carlson interviewed Bush for Talk Magazine (September 1999, p. 106). Excerpt from this interview is quoted below:

In the weeks before the execution, Bush says, a number of protesters came to Austin to demand clemency for Karla Faye Tucker. "Did you meet with any of them?" I ask. Bush whips around and stares at me. "No, I didn't meet with any of them", he snaps, as though I've just asked the dumbest, most offensive question ever posed. "I didn't meet with Larry King either when he came down for it. I watched his interview with Tucker, though. He asked her real difficult questions like, 'What would you say to Governor Bush?'" "What was her answer?" I wonder. "'Please,'" Bush whimpers, his lips pursed in mock desperation, "'don't kill me.'" I must look shocked — ridiculing the pleas of a condemned prisoner who has since been executed seems odd and cruel — because he immediately stops smirking.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bush is a despicable person. Yes, he likes torture. He likes causing the death of others. He loses not a moment of sleep over the tens (hundreds ?) of thousands of innocent Afghans and Iraqis dying in his ill conceived wars.

I think Bush and Cheney authorized torture because the idea that torture generally works is powerfully intuitive. The reasons it doesn’t are nuanced and easy to dismiss as sentimental.

No, it was clearly Tallyrand.

No, it was clearly Tallyrand.

Please call me when your newly minted Democratic President straightens-out the CIA and has some interrogations to do on terrorists they find....

To come at this sideways, this is another reason why Bill Clinton's anti-Obama attacks enrage me. After seven years of giving crap like we're talking about here a complete pass, Clinton decides to spend his cred on some trivial political infighting??

If, from the moment the Abu Ghraib story broke, Clinton had used his standing to condemn torture and this Administration's condoning of it, maybe - just maybe - things would have turned out a bit differently. Even if Bush still got elected for his second term, he might've faced real opposition on this score, from Senate Dems feeling a bit of Clintonian wind at their backs.

We'll never know.

It wasn't Talleyrand, but it is commonly misattributed to him.

This is one thing that your colleague Sullivan does get at the moral level (his disgusting Hillary antics notwithstanding): torture for this administration isn't about information, it's about torture, about the the intentional degradation and humiliation of others to (1) give us a sense of power and control to make us forget the powerlessness and humiliation of 9/11 and (2) deliver a message of intimidation to anyone who would oppose us. In this sense, torture isn't about accomplishing anything empirically useful but about answering deep emotional needs of the organizations and people who are doing it. To the extent our system of government (in theory anyway) was about thwarting large-scale exercises of power by people like this who have lost their heads, of course they'll view it as a hindrance and not a help. I think MY and others give these folks too much credit by wondering whether torture and the occupation of Iraq are achieving certain free-standing empirical goals when the real objectives of both are readily apparent - domination, control, and humilitation as ends in themselves and as a means of convincing others to submit to us.

the underlying presumption seems to be that transparency, the rule of law, accountability, etc. are all incredibly weaknesses in a system of government and that liberal democracies have been prevailing for the past couple of centuries despite the integral features of such a political system rather than because of them.

The appalling thing is that this is taken - or passively acceeded to - as CW by some large cohort of US voters. When Edwards says 'The System is rigged' or Obama evinces idealism, they're talking also about this subject. This election is about changing the prevailing accepted cynicism about the utility of rule of law, ie 'well yes, the rules are fine, but of course, in the Real World, they're just for show'. Bush Family Values, IOW. AKA Mafia Family Values. The only 'mistake' is getting caught. And even that doesn't matter if no one cares or notices.

"Instead, the underlying presumption seems to be that transparency, the rule of law, accountability, etc. are all incredibly weaknesses in a system of government..."

It's conservative socialisim in action.

I agree with scott, but I think it goes further than some brutish signal to the rest of the world. I believe there is a real (though possibly waning) domestic political payoff to torturing Muslims. It's never explicitly spelled out this way, but the logic seems to be that "they" (ie: anyone who ends up in Guantanamo or at a US black site) hurt us on 9/11, so we're entitled to extract pain as a response.

Especially among those quarters that feel we're in a "generational struggle against Islamofascism", the question about valuable intelligence coming from torture is secondary. The symbolism is all that matters, and the only important payoff is at the polls.

MY - What isn't the result is much in the way of usable intelligence.

Crap, Yglesias. Even the Democrats (Feinstein, Harmon) said the critical, urgently needed interrogation of Abu Zubaydah and Khalid Sheikh Mohammed uncovered 3 majer terrorist attacks almost ready to roll and saved thousands of lives. More important than the lives saved, which are plenty important unless you are a sincere believer that terrorist rights trump innocent American and Western lives - is the interrogations have unraveled the recruiters, financiers, weapons experts on the radical; Muslim side.

It is also apparantly true that the 1st words KSM said on capture was that he would not say another word until he was back in New York and had been represented by an ACLU lawyer. And later, still thinking he would get into civilian courts as the AQ Training manual assumed, specified he wanted no homosexual deviate or Jewish ACLU lawyer, if possible.

MY - Specifically, there's no way to tell what's accurate and what's not.

Right, Matt. And all police questioning of criminal suspects is a waste of time, because like with the CIA, they lack the smarts to check out the perps story against the evidence or other witnesses.

MY - The US government has, after all, plenty of agencies who interrogate prisoners routinely and lots of interrogations have been done historically. If I had been President, I would have tasked such agencies with the new job.

Because we all know that agencies that confront white collar busts and sub-80 IQ drug dealers have the expertise to question hardened, religiously fanatic terrorists on Jihad and cut deals with them and induce them to readily abandon their honor, their faith...

MY - That would have resulted in "non-physical, non-coercive techniques like building rapports with detainees—much like the FBI does, and much like what worked 60 years ago at places like Fort Hunt against hardened, sadistic Nazi officers."

That crap was put out by Jewish refugees, many fleeing Germany when they could because Hitler targeted Commies long before he went after Jews, who were hired as interrogators for their fluent German and then later lionized in the Times for their "relationship-building abilities" from early 1945 into 1946.

A cluestick, unlike the Islamoid terrorists convinced they are winning and serving God, the Wehrmacht officers playing chess with kindly Jews who were working to get Nazis and non-Nazi Germans (98% of the German population) to like them were all aware Germany was defeated. Had been since Stalingrad & Kursk. All were sitting at Ft. Hunt with the war over or almost over with both Soviet and American army lines already pushing well inside the German Homeland. They were out to CYA, cut deals with the Jews. And the Brits also had large numbers and found the prisoners they had also responded to any treatment - sweets and kindness or getting beaten up by Free French, Free Pole interrogators. Most such officers the Soviets had at war's end gave up what info they had, then most "disappeared".

Prior to early 1945 and the Jewish refugee/chessplayers/gourmet cooks to the Germans at Ft Hunt, we generally honored Geneva Rules. But many companies, like the Germans, believed it was far more moral to save lives on their own side. So they would try and capture 2 or more enemy, separate them, beat them until they talked, and consider what parts of their final stories agreed as fairly reliable intelligence.

Once the War was over, Geneva no longer applied and restrictions on what to do to a Nazi Death Camp guard or slave labor factory foreman or Nazis that did reprisals in occupied nations or let 2 million Soviet prisoners die of starvation and neglect - relaxed considerably.

That was the period of the "crushed testicles" The Other Matt references.

No need to waste time to "win them over". You found out what regiment was involved in a liquidation, grab 3-4 Germans from that group, and hold them apart. Then beat their balls or feet (a Free French specialty) until all 3-4 stories and names named agreed.

That part of "investigating and collecting evidence and testimony on war crimes" went very fast.

I think that America's use of torture is a message, not a means of getting information. It's a message to Bush's demented base that he's tough eneough, and it's a message to everyone else in the world that a.) he doesn't care what they think and b.) they should be very afraid.

And until further notice, that's what America is, as far as the rest of the world is concerned. And that's not a misperception of their part; torture is America until we quit torturing.

Hmmmmm, "crap was put out by Jewish refugees, "cut deals with the Jews." MY sure gets some interesting, tightly wound commenters like Chris Ford.

Wiki: Either Antoine Boulay de la Meurthe(deputy from Meurthe in the Corps législatif) or Napoleon's chief of police, Joseph Fouché, said about his execution, "It is more than a crime; it is a political fault." ("C'est pire qu'un crime, c'est une faute."), a statement often rendered in English as "It was worse than a crime; it was a mistake." The statement is also sometimes attributed to French diplomat Charles Maurice de Talleyrand-Périgord.

It was a propos Napoleon's execution of the duc d'Enghien.

Even the Democrats (Feinstein, Harmon)

Forgot to mention The New Republic.

SCott - torture for this administration isn't about information, it's about torture, about the the intentional degradation and humiliation of others to (1) give us a sense of power and control to make us forget the powerlessness and humiliation of 9/11 and (2) deliver a message of intimidation to anyone who would oppose us. In this sense, torture isn't about accomplishing anything empirically useful but about answering deep emotional needs of the organizations and people who are doing it.

What a crock of psychobabble!

We only sanctioned waterboarding for 3 high-level AQ terrorists with the intent of saving thousands of lives. It wasn't real torture like the radical Muslims regularly indulge in of lopping off limbs, gouging eyes out, skinning alive (an Afghan Taliban thing), and slow agonizing death.

What we did was not broadcast as a message of indimidation. It was broadcast by the semi-treasonous Sulzberger Family as a means of damaging America.

As Scott is likely a Lefty in a safe min wage job who wouldn't risk his ass for his country under any circumstances, I doubt he has a clue about the "deep emotional needs" of organizations and people being "mean" to his beloved freedom fighters.

I accept that having Khalid Sheikh Mohammed in capitivity and squealing like a pig is far more satisfying to me, personally, than KSM running free or in NYC surrounded by a phalanx of ACLU lawyers issuing his statements to his fellow Jihadis.

(The story, since verified by Pakistan, was that the 1st words out of KSM when he was captured was he had nothing to say until he was in NYC, represented by legal counsel from the ACLU or a group of Muslim lawyers in London.

His later request was, still assuming that the Americans would soon have him in American civilian courts, that he have a Muslim lawyer be his lead attorney - and that the rest of his free ACLU defense team not have women, Jews, or deviant homosexuals on it, if possible..)

> Napoleon's chief of police, Joseph Fouché,
> said about his execution, "It is more than a
> crime; it is a political fault." ("C'est pire
> qu'un crime, c'est une faute."), a statement often
> rendered in English as "It was worse than a
> crime; it was a mistake." The statement is also
> sometimes attributed to French diplomat Charles
> Maurice de Talleyrand-Périgord.

And I have never understood why people think that firing off that quote in response to the accusation that torture violates our political and moral principles is supposed to be some sort of counterargument. As far as I can see torture is BOTH a crime AND a political blunder, but the fact that is the latter does not excuse the former one micrometer.

Cranky

Chris just hits "repost" again whenever he feels that his input is needed.

The FBI employed non-coercive, rapport-establishing methods to interrogate Saddam Hussein. On the account of the guy who did the qusstioning, whom the FBI got onto Sixty Minutes last night, they were quite successful.

If this account is accurate, it suggests that the President could have found questioners in the lower reaches of the government who might well have acquired more information than did those who were actually relied on.

"How do you separate the sheep from the wool? There’s no fingerprints, no DNA," said a former senior intelligence official who helped set up the CIA’s interrogation program, and who would not speak for attribution. "You don’t know if you have Osama bin Laden or Joe Shit the rag-man."

Not the most pressing of points, but wouldn't "How do you separate the sheep from the *wolves*" make more sense? Osama being the wolf and Joe Shit the sheep, obviously.

From Chrias Ford, above, intitially quoting the post:

MY - The US government has, after all, plenty of agencies who interrogate prisoners routinely and lots of interrogations have been done historically. If I had been President, I would have tasked such agencies with the new job.

Because we all know that agencies that confront white collar busts and sub-80 IQ drug dealers have the expertise to question hardened, religiously fanatic terrorists on Jihad and cut deals with them and induce them to readily abandon their honor, their faith...

To which I would add - any interrogator has to start with some facts and any tale told by the interrogated has to be checked against available evidence. So, after farming out interrogations to the FBI or DEA, or whomever, do you also farm out all of their Qaeda files? Do we bring the FBI folks up to speed on every element of every Qaeda lead so they can actually do the job? Or maybe (hmm) we should just move them into the CIA...

Just to remind people that the War on Terror isn't the Mother of All Wars, it's a chicken-shit little war. (I'm sure that Chris Ford and Tom Maguire disagree.) A premise of a lot of the pro-torture arguments is that the Geneva Conventions and various other restrictions might apply to ordinary conflicts, but not this one, because it's so enormous and horrible. But it isn't. If torture is justified in this war, it's justified in every war. You always want to know the enemy's location and plans.

Meds for Mr. Ford, stat!

Not that this is relevant here, I'm sure, but anyone remember the name of the ROTC character in Animal House who harassed the frat brothers and got fragged by his own men in Vietnam? Just curious....

Neidermeyer.

And I am pretty sure the same actor played the Dad in Twisted Sister's "We're Not Gonna Take It" video - basically as the same character only alive and non-fragged after the war.

The FBI employed non-coercive, rapport-establishing methods to interrogate Saddam Hussein. On the account of the guy who did the qusstioning, whom the FBI got onto Sixty Minutes last night, they were quite successful.

From Day 1, Saddam Hussein told troops that he lost the main war and while his insurgent war went on, said he knew he was toast soon to be swinging from a rope. Even so, it took 5 months of "kindliness" before he admitted that he convinced the world he had WMD through double agents and he knew global intel and especially the Persians would not suspect he was bluffing. He never thought the US would be permitted to invade by the Left, Russia, fellow Muslim countries, and his bought-off people at the UN and in France. He thought the worst he would face was Desert Eagle II bombing and maybe limited amounts of Special Ops in country looking for WMD and looking to whack him.

Saddam was no hardcase 9/11 Mastermind, he had nothing to fight for. 5 months just to leisurely get around to him STARTING to talk about WMD then 6-9 months more to get a full picture.
We had no sense anything Saddam had was "urgent". If we had captured him early, when we thought WMD were hidden away, he would have been given, or more likely a few underlings would have been gotten the 3rd degree.

With KSM and Zubaiydah, there was a sense of urgency. Zub had locations of other AQ bigshots and the currency of that info faded by the day. KSM was thought to have 6 major plots ready to go or near completion. He only had 4, but two - the Singapore Plot and the Heathrow Plot, were scheduled to go off within 2 months of his capture. Thousands of lives were saved by coercively interrogating the two terror fanatics.

But it appears likely the Left will stop us from further terrorist countermeasures. Then thousands will die. It will be established that Lefty love of enemy rights enabled it, and the populace will conclude the Left has innocent Western blood on it's hands...and retaliation, like with the Copperheads after the Civil War. will start.

Americans sometimes require their lessons to be written in blood. There is no such thing as an easy optional war and occupation...lessons in blood instruct us otherwise. Several thousand dead Americans after the reality of 9/11 thanks to the efforts of terrorist rights loving Lefty activists and lawyers? Perhaps the lessons written in blood will play out like what was meted out to the Copperheads in the Reconstruction Era and all the way up to WWI era - methodically purging out the Copperheads of all governmental positions, law positions, positions of influence in private industry.

If this account is accurate, it suggests that the President could have found questioners in the lower reaches of the government who might well have acquired more information than did those who were actually relied on.

Nope. And what they did get from fanatically committed Jihadis voluntarily would have been lies with no stick to go along with the milk of human kindness carrot offered to the radical Islamoids. And would have gotten crumbs amidst the Taqqiyah many months or years after AQ leaders had scattered, and the terror attack plots KSM had working carried out.

Not that this is relevant here, I'm sure, but anyone remember the name of the ROTC character in Animal House who harassed the frat brothers and got fragged by his own men in Vietnam? Just curious....
posted by scott

Uh, that would be Kevin Bacon's character.

And no, the military does not put up with such martinets. They don't last. And even less so with fraggers. There weren't many, despite what Lefties think Hollywood informs them what happened in Vietnam. THe military historians believe 20% got away with it, 40% were court-martialed for the death penalty, and 40% were given "field justice" by the Gunnies and their demise blamed on "VC infiltrators". (70% of Vietnam Vets were volunteers and command & control discipline never broke down except in some draftee dregs who really didn't matter in the outcome - which was not a loss by the troops but a loss and betrayal of S Vietnam by the Left)) The convicted "fragger-murderers" had their death sentences commuted in the 70s, but remain in Leavenworth at hard labor today. Given what Leavenworth is like, none of the amenities civilian cons get - it is noteworthy that so many fraggers survived so long. Better death than a life rotting in Leavenworth.
Just ask our Club Fed alumni, Richard Steven Hack.

Not that it is relevant, Scott, but certain death camp kapos and sonderkommando that sympathized with their captors were torn apart by the camp populace on liberation. Certain Quilings, like their namesake Vikun, were put up against the wall. And even some American Copperheads had to move to Mexico or Canada fearing for their lives over the backlash of people literally gunning for them over Copperhead's championing of enemy Confederate rights...

And in

Posted by Leakcatcher |

Uh, that would be Kevin Bacon's character.

This is the most accurate line in the post. And, Surprise! It is completely wrong.

Good call, Stormcrow, that struck me as well. Fantasies about unproven and undemonstrable foiled terrorist plots, along with wet dreams about purging the new Copperheads amongst us. Interesting stuff, and again I'll say that MY draws a lot of interesting fans from the fever-swamp wingnut world to the comments here. I'm guessing it's the sexy beard that draws them in. Toodles.

Vice leaning on the arm of Crime

Talleyrand and Fouche are admittedly hard to keep separate, but it was always my impression that it was Talleyrand's aphorism.

Ford: "Given what Leavenworth is like, none of the amenities civilian cons get - it is noteworthy that so many fraggers survived so long. Better death than a life rotting in Leavenworth.Just ask our Club Fed alumni, Richard Steven Hack."

Another stupid mistake - Leavenworth Federal Penitentiary has nothing to do with the military prison at Leavenworth. I believe it's visible from certain windows at the FP, but I was never sure which building it was.

And Leavenworth FP is not "Club Fed". OTOH, it's not as bad as Samuel L. Jackson described it to Vin Diesel in "Triple X": "Leavenworth Federal Penitentiary is no joke. They'll take a wild man like you and throw him in solitary just for the fun of it... [This is true. - RSH] Only a six by nine cell with no windows and only a bucket to shit in." [This is not true - you get a real toilet - even in "The Hole" - if the last inmate hasn't ripped it out.]

As for fragging, I recall that somebody threw a grenade into our company's First Sergeant's hooch at Tuy Hoa - and at Vung Ro Bay, they first tried to run over the Battalion Colonel with a deuce-and-a-half, and then a sentry shot at him on the cargo pier one night...Our own platoon sergeant was some fat black dude who was so hated he carried a .25 automatic in case one of us decided to break a board over his head.

This nitwit Ford thinks "discipline never broke down" - well, not the way he thinks. But nobody I knew over there gave a shit about the war, and virtually everybody was a draftee, despite his 70% stats, and most of them couldn't stand the Army. Certainly, if you were drafted, you were Infantry - which is why I enlisted, I wasn't THAT stupid. Of course, I would have been smarter to go to Canada and be a deserter, as I would have made more money, had a better time, and been pardoned later.

Tough noogies, Chris.

"It's just that that is, in fact, what the FBI does and what the military did when it had to interrogate Nazis, etc. "

Duh!?!? Nazis were white and they were killing some slightly-less-than-white people. It is a completely different set of rules.


Comments closed February 11, 2008.

Copyright © 2008 by The Atlantic Monthly Group. All rights reserved.