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Clinton's Iraq Evolution

05 Feb 2008 11:50 am

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Spencer Ackerman has a great piece laying out Hillary Clinton's evolving views of Iraq over the years:

Clinton’s statements during October 2002 have received much attention. But what she’s said in the intervening years demonstrates a vertigo-inducing lack of clarity. Her position tracked the political zeitgeist elegantly: cautiously in favor of the war before it started; enthusiastically in favor of it during its first year; overtaken with doubt during 2004; nervously against withdrawal in 2005; cautiously in favor of withdrawal ever since—and all without so much as an acknowledgment of her myriad repositioning. At no point did she challenge the prevailing assumptions behind the war.

Spencer also, and correctly in my mind, draws an analogy between Clinton's ambiguous positioning on the war issue and that of John Kerry during the 2004 campaign:

And there’s a final significance to Clinton’s turn against the war. In November, the Democratic nominee will probably face a Republican who believed deeply in the war, but who also repeatedly criticized the war’s execution—Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz). McCain, a war hero, has national-security bona fides that few candidates possess. He will be able to inhabit the space Clinton has carved out for herself over the past two years: sober critic and skeptic of Bush. However, he’ll also be able to pounce on her inconsistency and vacillation, if Thursday’s debate is any indication, in a replay of the "flip-flopper" charge that doomed Kerry four years ago. Unlike Obama, Clinton will have no way of pivoting to a broader indictment of the militarism that McCain cheerfully espouses. It may be that, nearly six years after Clinton thought she had positioned herself to avoid all the pitfalls of the war, her calculation itself was what ultimately sealed the fate of her candidacy.

Now an important caveat that I would add to Spencer's critique is that Barack Obama followed up his extremely smart October 2002 speech on Iraq with what amounted to several years worth of Clinton-style vacillation and CW-mongering. The Clinton campaign has emphasized at various points that her record on Iraq and Obama's record on Iraq are actually very similar. And they're quite right. Still, the different positions they took in 2002 do put these records in a different context and, I think, the advantage overall clearly goes to Obama.

UPDATE: It should be said that my forthcoming book, Heads in the Sand, deals extensively with issues in this neighborhood. At a time when the country is being governed by fundamentally misguided ideas, the finger-in-the-wind approach fails to generate arguments that operate on the correct level and make it difficult for opposition politicians to reap the benefits that ought to follow from the fact that Bush's ideas have had disastrous consequences.

DOD photo of Hillary Clinton at Kirkuk Airbase taken by A1C Alicia M. Sarkkinen, USAF, 29 November 2003

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Comments (44)

I don't think the Clinton narrative that Obama flip-flopped on the war is correct. Obama never flip-flopped that the war was a bad idea. Rather, he voted to fund it-- as did most opponents of the war-- on the respectable and consistent ground that you need to meet a higher threshold before you start denying money to deployed troops. As far as I know, Obama has never once put out a statement supporting the war-- the closest he came was in 2004, when he tried to defend the party's nominee, John Kerry, by downplaying his differences with the nominee.

Clinton, by contrast, has bounced all over the place without acknowledging it. And her aides know it, which is why they are misleading people about Obama's record on the war.

Obama can also put together a plausible sounding defense of those votes, saying he was never for the war, but once Senate authorized the invasion there was nothing that could be done; that shutting down funding would only end up hurting the troops because, bullheaded and stubborn as he is, Bush would just keep the troops in Iraq without funding. With or without funding, Bush was not going to order the troops to come home, and it would turn into a game of chicken between Bush and Congress that would make all situations worse.

I'm not saying I buy it, but Obama has been consistent in what he has said publicly, whereas Clinton as you point out has been all over the map, and in a way that can directly be tied to poll numbers.

I like Sen. Obama, but I'm not at all impressed with his 2002 speech. He was a State Senator in a safe district in south Chicago. In the first place, the world is not holding its breath waiting for the views of State Senators. Secondly, it was hardly courageous for a Democrat in a safe seat to be against the war.

John, with all due respect, can you find other State Senators who spoke out similarly and were anywhere near as prescient? Not only was he against the war, but he also anticipated we'd be there for a long time and that it would serve as a recruiting tool for al-Qaeda.

The fact of the matter is, it was not a popular posiion to hold at the time.

John Petty, why wasn't Hillary against the war? Her seat was safe.

This is the key argument I always try to make for Obama. Have Democrats already forgotten the 2004 election? If they nominate an Iraq flip-flopper that will be the entire narrative. Only one Democrat in this race has had a clear, consistent, point of view on Iraq, and that's Barack Obama.

Iraq war will be the main issue, but in ways the liberals don't expect, and the result in November will be a replay of 2004. It's easy to conclude this from various statements of both of the leading Dem contenders, the McCain position, and the obvious inability of the Democrats to do anything about the war or any of the transgressions of the GOP even if the Democrats are in the majority.

I never fail to be amused by the sight of these sages poring over Hillary's record, trying to decipher why she has accumulated a hawkish record.

"What's the angle?" they mutter, "For what political motive has she adopted these calculated positions?"

Why can't people just accept the fact that SHE'S A HAWK? Read her book. Read her speeches. She believes in military intervention, unilaterally if necessary, to protect "US interests."

Why'd she vote for the war? She thought removing Saddam Hussein from power was a good idea.

Why'd she support the war after it started? She wanted it to succeed and thought it could.

Why'd she start criticizing Bush's handling when things began to go pancake-shaped? Because even hawks don't like losing wars.

Why does she refuse to apologize for the AUMF vote or declare she was wrong (ala Edwards)? Because she doesn't think she WAS wrong!

A guarantee: If she's elected, Sen. Clinton WILL bomb or invade at least one other nation during her term of office. I don't like it any more than the rest of you, but it does no good to hide from the truth, people.

So the only difference is you can say a lot when your comments don't count When they do you have to be careful. When both Obama and Clinton had to consider the consequences of their actions they are no different. Only when Obama was a part time state legislator who's opinion did effect national debate, was he different.
They are both the same, no difference both straight DLC look at both web sites. The same DLC ideas.

Jack

Matthew, the cover of your book is boring and hard to read. Any chance you can get the publisher to redesign it? I'd really like to see it sell well, but that's a cover that wouldn't catch my eye for a single second in a bookstore.

"It should be said that my forthcoming book, Heads in the Sand, deals extensively with issues in this neighborhood."

Gotta love that it should be said ...

So Obama's and Clinton's positions on Iraq are the same except for the decision to go to war in the first place. Has there ever been a more apt circumstance for deploying this old cliche: Other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?

"Jack B" is 100% correct.

I'll bet if you made an effort, you could locate hundreds and hundreds of Democratic state legislators and other local officials around the country who were even more forthright in their opposition to our crazy Iraq War than our brilliant and courageous friend Obama.

Just consider how's he's totally flip-flopped on e.g. the Israel-Palestine conflict since reaching DC and you can bet your bottom dollar that he would have spoken and voted exactly like Hillary during 2002 if---like her---he'd also been in DC during 2002...

The idea that Obama's 2002 speech carried no political risk is stupid and false. Besides more immediate concerns, it seems pretty likely (though I'm open to correction) that he was considering the run for Senate which began not that long after. It was in no way clear that having opposed Iraq would be safe in a statewide 2004 election in Illinois.

Jake, Yes, I do know several State Senators here in Colorado who gave anti-war speeches and attended rallies. It's not that unusual.

Here's my question: How does Obama handle McCain on the issue of the war? McCain will be talking about "success" and "victory." You and I know that that's bogus, that the surge had nothing to do with the decline of violence in Iraq, and that it was mainly because we paid the Sunnis to fight al-Qaeda, and the Mahdi army is currently standing down.

We know that, but most people don't. They think the decline in violence is because the "surge" supposedly worked.

So how does Obama counter McCain? I think most people would rather vote for "victory" than "admit defeat."

My opposition to Clinton is even stronger than my support for Obama. If the Democrats nominate Hlllary Clinton, then it seems to me that the past six years of progressive agitation and intense opposition to the Iraq War Bush's Middle East policy agenda have all been for naught. All those words spilled in endless blog comments - empty wind. If we can't succeed in holding responsible one of the chief Democratic enablers of the Bush agenda, then we might as well say, "We lost the Iraq debate. We give up."

What washerdreyer said.

I pretty much agree with Gustav, though he sets the bar pretty low for being a hawk. I think McGovern would have been a hawk under that definition.

As Ackerman says, she tracked the zeitgeist, but what is so odd about that? It started off as seeming like a good idea to her but as it went south, so did her opinion of the effort. Any lack of clarity can be construed as an evolving position due to evolving facts on the ground.

Obviously it's not a profile in courage, but it isn't vertigo inducing either.

And what Dan Kervick said.

So how does Obama counter McCain? I think most people would rather vote for "victory" than "admit defeat."

It's a good question John, but I'm not sure why it's only relevant to Obama. Perhaps you believe this because Hillary applauded the "surge is working!" line in Bush's SOTU, I don't know.

I would hope Obama would dispel the notion that the surge has "worked". There hasn't been any notable political reconciliation, and that's what the surge was supposed to enable. Last time I checked, despite all the surge "success", the majority of Americans still want us out of there.

So how does Obama counter McCain? I think most people would rather vote for "victory" than "admit defeat."

Nothing in the polls support this assertion. Even with deaths rates down Americans continue to view Iraq as a disaster.
This is why a vote for Obama is vital, it's time to change the mindset that made this vote possible.

I pretty much agree with Gustav, though he sets the bar pretty low for being a hawk. I think McGovern would have been a hawk under that definition.

As Ackerman says, she tracked the zeitgeist, but what is so odd about that? It started off as seeming like a good idea to her but as it went south, so did her opinion of the effort. Any lack of clarity can be construed as an evolving position due to evolving facts on the ground.

Obviously it's not a profile in courage, but it isn't vertigo inducing either.

I don't know Carl, 2 years behind the curve (that's 822 dead, 6298 wounded in 2006; 901 dead, 6075 wounded in 2007) makes me feel like Jimmy Stewart hanging from a ledge.

> As Ackerman says, she tracked the zeitgeist, but
> what is so odd about that? It started off as
> seeming like a good idea to her but as it went
> south, so did her opinion of the effort. Any lack
> of clarity can be construed as an evolving
> position due to evolving facts on the ground.
>
> Obviously it's not a profile in courage, but it
> isn't vertigo inducing either.

So when the Radical Right revs up the war drums for the next adventure (perhaps in response to some act of terrorism on US soil), Hillary will suddenly find the courage to say no? In aviation that is known as the Ace of Base phenomena, and those words are spoken in low tones at the funeral...

Cranky

A few questions:

Can anyone who claims that speeches by state legislators opposing the war were common provide a name, a date, a quote, anything?

Does anyone remember the political climate in 2002? Ari Fleischer telling the public to watch what they say. I lived in Chicago, in Obama's district, at the time. There was still plenty of rabid-revenge-fantasy patriotism in the windy city--just like everywhere else.

It wasn't easy to speak out against the war. It was politically risky, unlike Clinton's capitulation.

And this is why she's just not a realistic candidate for democrats. She and her husband capitulated on health care in 93, capitulated on Lani Guenier and Jocelyn Elders, capitulated on gays in the military, sold out labor with Nafta, ended welfare as we know it, ended "the era of big gov't" and signed the defense of marriage act. What's left? What plank of the democratic party platform did they not systematically sell out for political expediency?

This claim that the Clinton's are fighters has always struck me as ironic. The only real battle they've ever fought was to protect themselves from the "republican attack machine." On every other issue they've caved. They've fought strongest to stay in power. Everything else turns out to be negotiable. How can Democrats support that?

I don't think the excuse proffered by Hillary supporters (that it was easier for Obama to oppose the war) cuts in the direction they want it to. Obama, after all, had NO POWER TO AUTHORIZE OR STOP THE WAR as a state senator. If he had chosen to support it, it wouldn't have made any difference at all.

Hillary, in contrast, had the Constitutional power to decide whether to send this country to war, and exercised that power. (She also would have had substantial influence on the bully pulpit had she chosen to side with the "dirty hippies" and lead demonstrations against the war.) 4,000 brave Americans died because of the decision that Hillary participated in.

In other words, Obama spoke out against the war when he had no responsibility to. Hillary had a responsibility to stop the war and instead authorized it. How does this possibly exonerate Hillary?

The past is what it is. At present however, we have two positions.

Clinton is for the war as it is.
Obama is for a smaller version of the war.

Yes, there is a difference. But neither is objectively anti-war.

Obama's argument for why he hasn't stopped the war goes something like this: "One of the reasons I was against this disasterous, misguided, strategically short-sighted war was because I knew it would be virtually impossible to get out of the quicksand once we got in". He kills two birds with one stone, bolstering his judgment argument while explaining why his votes are similar to Hillary's.

I think most voters understand that getting out is not as simple as not invading in the first place.

The majority of Americans followed the same trajectory on Iraq that Hillary did. Matt, didn't you follow this trajectory? Initial support for the war - thinking it was a good idea in the first year - then gradually coming to terms with the reality on the ground. I don't see a cardinal sin here.

More importantly, Hillary's stance on how we go forward is in stark contrast to St. John's. That's what the debate will be about. Not about quotes from '02, '03, '04, '05, and '06.

Dems really need to fight the notion that McCain criticized the war's execution. Where was that criticism in 2003, when the execution took place? Can anyone point to it? Wasn't McCain on Armed Services, whioh would have been a perfect place to conduct some oversight, and criticize the execution as it was occurring? Seems to me Ackerman is confusing criticism of the execution with criticism of the results of the execution. McCain stopped drinking the Kool Aid before other Republicans did. That may make him a more acceptable Republican, but it doesn't make him better than anyone who opposed the war from the outset.

Dems really need to fight the notion that McCain criticized the war's execution. Where was that criticism in 2003, when the execution took place? Can anyone point to it? Wasn't McCain on Armed Services, whioh would have been a perfect place to conduct some oversight, and criticize the execution as it was occurring? Seems to me Ackerman is confusing criticism of the execution with criticism of the results of the execution. McCain stopped drinking the Kool Aid before other Republicans did. That may make him a more acceptable Republican, but it doesn't make him better than anyone who opposed the war from the outset.

jjmckim wrote: "One of the reasons I was against this disasterous, misguided, strategically short-sighted war was because I knew it would be virtually impossible to get out of the quicksand once we got in".

This is a pretty good response. Send it to the Obama campaign. Maybe they could use it. :)

RE: polling on the war. Yes, most people have decided that the whole thing should not have happened--roughly by a 2-1 margin--but that doesn't necessarily mean that they want to pull out right away. That's a different question.

So what I seem to be getting from several of you is that Obama's speech against the war doesn't count because he was a lowly state senator - it's so easy to be against war when you have "nothing to lose." Hillary, meanwhile, is exempt from criticism for her vote authorizing the war because she was in a tougher position, what with being a "real" senator with a lot at stake (never mind the fact that she had access to more information about the war in the form of a National Intelligence Estimate that she DID NOT BOTHER TO READ). I guess she thought losing voter support was a lot worse than losing her principles.

To my mind, the higher position you hold in government, the higher standard you should be held to. We elect people to do right by us, not play a popularity contest. I don't care how freaking good her health care plan is, it won't have the power to heal the divide we've created both at home and throughout the world and it sure as hell won't have the power to bring thousands of American soldiers and an exponentially larger amount of Iraqis back to life. I'm glad she finally found her voice, I just wish she had it when it mattered.

At a time when the country is being governed by fundamentally misguided ideas,

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with this statement, but considering that Yglesias has, at various times, called for self-defeating funding for SCHIP, the nationalization of day care, great increases in federal funding for buses in agricultural regions (where any usefulness is suspect), universal (and unhealthy) national lunch menus, and a new, ubiquitous high-speed train system--without explaining how any of this could be paid for--I'm not sure his domestic agenda is any less "fundamentally misguided."

Obama and HRC's position on the war are NOT the same. Their decisions in 2002 define everything.

Consider this. I strongly and adamantly opposed the Iraq war in 2002 leading up to the invasion. I vocalized my dissent by writing my papers about it, giving a speech about it (undergrad years), and debating in forums about it.

HOWEVER, once we invaded Iraq, I thought we as a nation owed it to the Iraqi people to see the mission through *to some extent*. How irresponsible would it be to invade, and then 1 year later say "well, we fucked up, sorry guys, you're on your own". Anyone who suggests we should have done that is cruel and irresponsible.

It is in that context that we should look at Obama's views. He opposed the war on the record. But yes, once we invaded, then we needed to at least give it an honest effort. Obama recognized this. So don't pretend that his and Clinton's views on the wars were close. They were polar opposites, always have been, always will be. He voted no, she voted yes, period, end of story.

What's that saying, "When I receive new facts (data), I re-examine my position." Why must this poor woman always be portrayed as a cold, calculating, callous witch?
p.s. If Obama was so dead-set against the war in his 2002 speech, why does he give us some light-hearted version of Nixon's 'peace with honor'? Where pray is his enthusiastic backbone?

Where was that criticism in 2003, when the execution took place?

I believe in Thomas Ricks' Fiasco, he states that McCain was complaining about troop levels and criticizing Rumsfeld for ignoring the advice of the Generals even before the invasion, which is partly why McCain and Rumsfeld hate each other. Might have been in Woodward's third Bush book.

Like "Right," I too agree that this is one of the best arguments for Obama's nomination. Kerry's positions were muddy on the war and Hillary's -- even with the advantage of four years -- are even muddier. This was the most important vote of her entire senate career. She got it wrong. I can forgive her for that, because I also supported the war. But since that time her position on the original decision has been painfully nuanced and parsed and it makes her a TERRIBLE choice to face off against a Republican war hero whose position is quite clear.

Why must this poor woman always be portrayed as a cold, calculating, callous witch?

I'm convinced.

Vote Hillary. Make the big bad world stop picking on her.


But since that time her position on the original decision has been painfully nuanced and parsed and it makes her a TERRIBLE choice to face off against a Republican war hero whose position is quite clear.

I still fail to see how Obama's position on Iraq is more saleable in the general election. McCain will tout "victory," and paint Obama as naive and defeatist. I agree McCain's position is clear, and, worse, it's a political winner.

John Petty:

The Obama position will have the advantage of having been right from the start, and that will count for a lot with voters who've wearied of this costly war. ("It's not enough to be ready on Day One, you've got to be RIGHT on Day One.") Hillary, having voted for this war and having failed to repudiate that vote (as even Kerry did), will not be able to make that case.

Obama was a declared Senate candidate. The GOP Senator was retiring. He faced self-funded candidates in both the primary and general election. So he actually faced much stronger political pressure than safe seat Senator Clinton did.

I still fail to see how Obama's position on Iraq is more saleable in the general election. McCain will tout "victory," and paint Obama as naive and defeatist. I agree McCain's position is clear, and, worse, it's a political winner.

It would be up to Obama to change the narrative from McCain's, something which he seems to handle adeptly.

Clinton, on the other hand, will be seen as nothing but a poor man's McCain on foreign policy (though her past comments suggest her foreign policy views are more similar to those of Bush or Wolfowitz than McCain). She will be (somewhat accurately) painted as someone brash enough to start a war, but too weak to win it. Given the choice between the real deal and the pale imitation, voter's will go with the real deal, every time.

It boggles my mind that Democrats are still contemplating the self-immolation of a Clinton nomination. Obama is and Edwards was a sure-fire landslide (thought the latter was a brainless fool). Lucky for me the Republicans have likely decided to nominate someone I can not only live with (though he's not exactly my guy), but someone who will almost certainly defeat the only Democrat I absolutely cannot live with.

Same old, same old rehash of the Obama-vs-Clinton war vote crap...

Can we move on? Iraq is lost. Deal with it. McCain is not going to win based on the anti-war vote and most people still hate the war and want it over. If McCain wins, it's going to be by emphasizing...tah dah!...the upcoming wars!

How about the upcoming wars, people?

Where does anybody see either Obama or Clinton NOT getting us involved in Iran and/or Pakistan - or both?

McCain will do it in his first six months in office. Clinton or Obama will do it within their first two years in office.

Both of them have denounced Iran as a "threat" - which it is not - to anybody. Both of them have suggested increasing US involvement in both Afghanistan and Pakistan. The war is lost in Afghanistan - "surging" (i.e., escalating) there will merely turn Afghanistan into Iraq. Pakistan will be a disaster in five years - imposing US troops into Pakistan - even on a smaller basis - will merely accelerate the radicalization of the Pakistani population and collapse the Pakistani government.

Neither Obama or Clinton have a clue about US foreign policy vis-a-vis Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, the Israel-Palestinian situation, or terrorism.

All of these issues will have a direct, major impact on the US economy over the next five years, especially if more violence breaks out. Neither candidate can afford to get these issues wrong - and all of them apparently do.


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