Okay . . . argue about the debate here. I'm going to restrain myself from putting up any more random posts. Some analysis when it's done.
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Debate Thread
21 Feb 2008 08:43 pm
Comments (77)
so which candidate appears to like the Gin Blossoms the most?
Not too exciting of a debate (I've only seen the end of the economy and the immigration section). Both sides seem pretty civil, passing up on multiple opportunities to attack each other and largely agreeing on most opinions. The crowd sounds like it's being lead by an "applause" sign: The clapping starts and stops on a dime, and sounds consistently the same each time.
As an Obama supporter, Hillary's performance so far has got me nervous. She's punchier, more energized, better spoken, and seems to get better audience reactions. Substantively, Obama is doing fine, but he seems tired, distracted, almost bored, and hesitations in his speech are working a bit against his authenticity charm.
Hillary would be a Gin Blossoms had she been born in 1975.
Apparently, Obama has been carrying a head cold for a day or so.
The past CNN debates have featured plants [1] and braindead moderators [2], but this is even worse: a Mexican citizen asking immigration questions, and I'm sure that CNN didn't disclose his citizenship status nor the fact that he's an admitted CulturalSeparatist.
If anyone would like to solve the CNN problem, go to public appearances and videotape the candidates' answers to real questions [3], then upload that to video sharing sites.
[1] youtube.com/watch?v=TpqKogu9bzA
[2] youtube.com/watch?v=nIbDAVQMKGM
youtube.com/watch?v=wm0uWz2BS9M
[3] youtube.com/watch?v=YRWRzZ_yPnk
youtube.com/watch?v=Q_l4Lawj14A
youtube.com/watch?v=EiullH5jU1A
There is a fan that keeps blowing Obama's notepad over. Dirty Clinton tactics?
Standing up for himself against the "delusional" voter/supporter charge.
Good for him.
It was a losing, insulting argument on the part of her and her supporters (Timmeh, katie, Ruth K, etc...), but still - fun to see him knock it down.
That answer aside, she's having a better debate so far, though.
Now comes the "plagiarism" charge.
obama had a very good response to the "where's the beef" question.
There is a fan that keeps blowing Obama's notepad over. Dirty Clinton tactics?
no, that's just a sign that the wind is to his back.
'And I gotta admit, some of them are pretty good.'
Indeed.
"If your candidacy is going to be about words, it should be your own words."
Dumb - but got applause.
And she got a terrible reaction for that "campaign by xerox" or whatever, line. And she didn't stop.
Bad move on her part.
Obama is definitely stepping it up. He took the questions about words vs action, and plagiarism, and he soon had the audience booing Clinton.
'It's change you can Xerox.'
An obviously 'written' line, swept under a roller of boos. And rightly
Well I guess thinking HRC was going to stay nice was premature.
They're gonna be a lot of sound bites out of the 2nd half.
Get that man a paperweight!
For gosh sakes, CNN!
Is it just me or has the host had a witchy nosejob?
he's crushing her
Obama won the plagiarism/silly season segment surprisingly handily.
Ooooh... I thought Obama really turned around the Change vs. Plans thing in the most concrete and effective (to me) fashion I've seen so far. Pretty much said that if you elect HRC than you'll get another good, but failed, health plan unless you elect him to change the politics.
Okay, Obama's improved quite a bit and scored some big cheers in responding to plagiarism attacks. At one pt the audience booed, apparently at Hillary's snark, "That's not change you can believe in, that's change you can Zerox."
I guess it was good that he stayed above the fray and didn't drop kick her claim that he copied several "passages" for his speeches. But boy would it have been entertaining.
She continues to come off as nasty. People don't dig it.
They keep trying to break into a proper debate and the damn hosts keep stalling it.
I get the sense that she doesn't even believe this speeches vs. solutions crap but she spouts it off anyway because she knows people love dichotomies. yuck.
Obama always takes a while to warm up in these debates. He's doing great, especially considering he has a cold. Hillary's going negative and that's really not going over well. She was rightly booed for that "Change we can xerox" comment.
Did anyone think when she was saying 'I WANT [mandated healthcare etc.]' and jogging her arms she appeared petulant and spoilt-childish?
She didn't really win the health care portion.
She's about to lost the "commander in chief" argument, as he just brought up her Iraq vote.
Nice.
Is Campbell Brown a Clinton shill?
Is Campbell Brown a Clinton shill?
Is Campbell Brown a Clinton shill?
oops...
He absolutely feels more presidential on the national security/foreign policy issues. But is that merely the 'male-protector' archetype distorting my perception?
Damn, I wish I had a TV...
you can watch on cnn.com, plum./
I would call the health care debate a draw, and Obama is far superior on the commander-in-chief issue.
But he is winning on more than the issues. His debating is excellent. It is no longer true that Hillary is a better debater. They are both good at this.
Is no one else noticing this??? Why haven't they fixed the vents or gotten Obama a paperweight??
For a while he was figuring out that if you place the pen on the edge of the paper, it prevents flapping. But then he apparently forgot. You don't need to use your finger, Senator!
Why does Hillary give the "death stare" to Obama when he speaks? It's unnerving...
http://edition.cnn.com/POLITICS/
Not even any commercials.
On the 'people meter', with the Xerox line, DOOOWWN she goes ...
plum, you can watch it live at CNN.com but you have to DL the player. I am watching it streaming at www.myp2p.eu (they also have a ton of live sport, all for free), to watch it there google and DL a player called 'sopcast' (also free, and seems to be pretty clean).
"He absolutely feels more presidential on the national security/foreign policy issues. But is that merely the 'male-protector' archetype distorting my perception?
Posted by B | February 21, 2008 9:23 PM"
Maybe it's just me, but I get more of the "male protector" vibe from her because she just seems to have a more aggressive personality while he's trying to avoid looking like an angry black man. Then again, I find the whole idea of a "male protector" to be bad, so maybe that's why I have a viscerally bad reaction to her like I do to a lot of (mostly male) hawks.
I think these moderators are doing better than the usual A-Team. John King's doing well, imho. Campbell Brown, to answer Maggie's question above, is supposedly dating (married?) Dan Senor, the Bush Admin Iraq spokesman who sounded so much like Baghdad Bob...
she just seems to have a more aggressive personality
In these parts, Reality Man, they call that being a shrill bitch.
No, you have to have a baritone voice and a reassuringly-chiselled jawline to qualify as 'male protector'.
Male protectors hold your hand on the way to school, and give you hugs when you wake up sweating from nightmares.
Somehow I feel HRC's losing this. How disingenuous of her to skate over the superdelegacy question.
It is so sad to watch HRC..Is she the only person in America that doesnt understand that she has lost this race?
OMG! He put his hand on her!!!! Sound the alarm!
Oh, and male protectors also shoot down enemy helicopters with shoulder-launch missiles. Forgot that.
Hillary's voice just cracked on 'face disfigured'!
I guess the bottom line is that this isn't Bush vs. Kerry: both are performing competently, so judgement is difficult. I keep thinking that Obama is not doing so well, but a lot of people disagree.
Clinton wins debate.
That was a ridiculously good and heartfelt last answer.
Ick. I can't stand the schmaltz.
Clinton wins debate.
Put down the bong. She lost the debate and the election. Good night, Hillary.
I didn't see the whole thing, but it looks like they both did fine to me, for the most part. Her last answer was certainly a high point.
As a non-Democrat, I have to admit that there is virtually zero difference between Clinton and Obama on policy (when they actually got into policy). The questions were pretty awful - but CNN isn't known for their probing questions. King had a good final question on Iraq, but that was about it - no specifics on tax policy, social security, medicare, trade,...
To me, it seems to come down to who is more likable and that's easy: Clinton reminds too many men of the women they never want to marry.
It is very sad to watch Hillary. Very sad. You can't choose someone, just cause you feel sorry for them.
Obama has the X factor and that is it. He is the ONE.
We have our man.
Thanks for the help guys, but I'm out of the country so can't get CNN. And my firewall flagged myp2p as having spyware or something.
Your impressions are more than good enough for me :)
Clinton reminds too many men of the women they never want to marry.
Or that they married and lived to regret when they became nagging, bitter crones...
The only question at this point is how much damage Hillary is going to do to the Democratic party before she calls it quits.
Obama destroyed her in the debate.
Clinton was doing fine until she went negative. The Xerox line was such a low point - the only portion of the debate that actually got a visceral negative reaction from the crowd.
She had strong moments after it, but didn't win the health care portion, her supposed strength, and didn't win the commander in chief section (her 35 years o' experience), and while she ended well, it wasn't enough to make up for the Xerox gaffe.
Whoever wrote that line for her should follow Solis Doyle out the door.
Both outstanding!
Strip away Hillary's handlers and Obama's cult members and you're left with a pair of damn good candidates.
Obama crushed through the meat of the debate. Hillary's last comment was good, but also seemed like she was about to drop out w/ the "i'll be fine" comment.
"Nagging, bitter crones"? Give me a break. She's a strong, smart woman who has dedicated her life to public service, even putting her own career on hold to support her husband's ambitions (which, admittedly, were also her own). I say this as an avid Barack supporter. But sexist statements like that show a lack of critical thinking. My husband loves me in part because he thinks I'm smart. Are men only happy if they marry weak-willed women? Seriously, Dude.
I'm out of the country and I could get the CNN coverage just fine, except I had to switch browser from Ff to IE.
from Josh Marshall
9:16 PM ... I don't see how Sen. Clinton can say she's been representing the United States for 15 years. I know this is a dicey topic. But she wasn't president from 1993-2001. What am i missing? Here's the quote: "For more than 15 years, I’ve been honored to represent our country in more than 80 countries, to negotiate on matters such as opening borders for refugees during the war in Kosovo, to stand up for women’s rights as human rights around the world."
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/179590.php
I wish Obama would respond that being married to the President is different from experience in an elected office...
Without coverage, I'm surfing different sites, all live blogging the thing. The one thing that struck me about the previous debate (in Calif) was how different the perceptions were from blog to blog.
This time around ... Here's "Democrat" Taylor Marsh:
Back after a break Clinton needs to up her game. Obama is even with her, proving that he's her equal in the eyes of voters. Clinton is not talking to a general election audience at this point. She's got to convince voters she's the better choice for them to make. It hasn't happened so far.
Down-thread...
Again another commercial. I am sorry but I think Hillary missed some opportunities of points that she should have corrected.
If I was undecided I would not be on Hillary's side now. This is ridiculous. This is another loss 11 in a row!
BlackManNot4Obama | 02.21.2008 - 9:31 pm | #
what sherean said!
But Still Undecided's "Obama's cult members" remark is insulting and needs to end.
Both did quite well, and in a sense, Clinton's last statement will stay with people. However, I did get the feeling that somebody finally got to her and told her she could lose this thing and if she basically said he was incompetent and all that it would hurt the country down the road.
Like lolwut said, it was almost a getting ready to concede type of statement and at the same time endorse Obama.
She doesn't want to give any more ammunition to the Republicans.
All that being said, it was obvious that either one will be able to turn McCain upside down and inside out and the country can be proud to have either one as President.
I agree with Sherean, exactly. Except I'm not married. Seriously, dude.
He was great at reminding viewers that his policies are similar to hers (negating the argument that she's more substantive), while pointing out that he's the one that can implement new policies because of his ability to inspire, unite, etc.
Bottom line? HRC needed a knock-out which she didn't get. He needed to not screw up, which he didn't. He is making headway on the substance debate, and with her last answer, she succeeded in (finally) humanizing herself. Something she should have done a lot sooner.
Nothing changes. But I think her last answer will get a LOT of play.
"who has dedicated her life to public service,"
Anybody who uses the words "public service" is deliberately bullshitting or is terribly ignorant when it comes to politicians. No politician dedicates his (or her) life to "public service". They dedicate it to their own service, like just about everybody else including doctors, nurses, priests and people who feed the homeless.
"even putting her own career on hold to support her husband's ambitions (which, admittedly, were also her own)..."
No duh.
Good thing for Hillary she can always depend on Susan Hu:
Comment by SusanUnPC | 2008-02-21 20:59:36
You are right! He just takes notes, and never glances up. That wouldn’t look good in a general debate.
Reply to this comment
Comment by Frostback | 2008-02-21 21:04:30
I don’t really think he’s taking notes…looks like making spirals. I noticed he did this at one of the last debates.
It doesn’t look good now!
Reply to this comment
Comment by SusanUnPC | 2008-02-21 21:08:30
Maybe he’s got a photo of Hillary and he is drawing horns on her — just sayin’ some people are a little arrogant and condescending.
Reply to this comment
Comment by Frostback | 2008-02-21 21:15:23
If he’s illustrating, he’s probably tracing.
Reply to this comment
Comment by cloudy | 2008-02-21 21:37:33
This has got to be my favorite comment thus far!
Good times!
'All that being said, it was obvious that either one will be able to turn McCain upside down and inside out and the country can be proud to have either one as President.'
Agreed.
But I doubt many of us could pluck from our memories more than 5 words of Clinton's last statement, even though the debate's just finished, and even if it will 'stay with' us.
All I remember is 'Change we can Xerox'.
her final quote about everything being fine was exactly like Edwards speech, nearly word for word.
and she has the nerve to pull that Xerox line?
Actually appears that the Xerox line was more effective than I first thought. The cult-members are freaking out about it!
Score one for HRC.
It was effective.
It was the final nail in her own coffin, even notable in a campaign marked by a series of infamous self-inflicted wounds.
Classic.
"Actually appears that the Xerox line was more effective than I first thought. The cult-members are freaking out about it!
Score one for HRC."
score? these are the people you have to win over, you dont do that by accusing someone of plagiarism, erstwhile having ripped off Bill's 'invisible americans' speech, echoing Edwards comments in her final closing dictum, using as scripted one liner to call someone a plagiarist...
if getting booed on stage is a 'score', pfft, score yourself.
Let's make this clear: Given the polls in Texas, if Obama won the debate, then he won; if the debate was a reasonable tie, he won again, because if the trend continues he at worst breaks even in Texas, where Clinton needs to win 65%-75% of vote.
It was at best a tie for Clinton. Obama hit her hard in several areas - she kept threatening to take him down as unprepared to be commander in chief - but on that specific question, she talked about foreign embassies at risk, which is a foreign policy issue, it was Obama sounding strong on the need to revamp the military and reconstruct our defense strategy.
He sounded ready for 'day one' - she sounded desparate.
Comments closed March 06, 2008.
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Heads in the Sand
Slightly disappointed in Obama's performance so far. I wish he would just, you know... 'amp it up', because we know he can. I find myself more interested in what is going on on the TV when Hillary is speaking, exactly the opposite of what I expected. I wonder how big an effect this would have...
Posted by CG | February 21, 2008 8:49 PM