Looks live Devean George is vetoing the ill-advised Kidd-to-Dallas trade. The Nets and Mavericks are still trying to work things out, but Mark Cuban ought to take the opportunity to listen to reason and cancel the deal. Did you know that Dallas' two most effective five man units involve Harris and Diop, both of whom would be shipped out in the trade? Listen to Hollinger, don't do the deal.
« How MLK Saved Star Trek | Main | Fear Factor »
George Saves Dallas
14 Feb 2008 11:38 am
Comments (45)
Apparently they could substitute Van Horn in a sign and trade deal.
I couldn't agree more -- something about basketball leads otherwise smart people to overrate the "superstar" player at the expense of common sense.
Personally, I think Devin Harris is too much to give up for a 35-year-old Kidd, let alone adding Diop and 2 first-round picks. Athletic, diligent bigs such as Diop are pretty rare commodities.
You mean Hoginger? (Huh? huh? give it up!)
Mark Cuban ought to take the opportunity to listen to reason and cancel the deal
Don't listen to Matthew, Mark. You know perfectly well that the Mavericks are not going to win the title unless you make a drastic move. Roll the dice, Mark.
Also, how the hell did Devean George get a no-trade clause?
He didn't "get" it, it's part of the CBA. Something to do with Larry Bird rights. Which is stupid - were the Mavericks going to pay Devean George enough money next year that Larry Bird rights makes a difference??? Uh, no.
Al is correct. The word I'm hearing is that the word is that Devean doesn't really intend to hold up the trade, he just put the brakes on because he wanted his agent to look into how it was going to affect his financial outlook. And, yeah, any player who's in whatever specific contractual situation Devean has to be in (don't recall specifics, don't really care) has the right to veto a trade because of the way in which it might explicitly alter his earning potential. Just business.
I suppose what I wonder about Kidd in Dallas, as has been pointed out, is: will Kidd restore some of the running, freewheeling, fast-breaking assist-making style to the Mavs offense which has been missing since the days of Nash and Nellie, or are his offensive advantages going to be neutralized by the weirdly efficient but stultifying Iso Ball that's been the norm under Avery Johnson? (As someone who's not automatically a naysayer on the Phoenix/Shaq deal, I suppose the answer to that question is the difference between my saying "Ballsy gamble" and my saying "More overtly misguided than the Shaq deal, almost certain to not accomplish what they want and cost them in the long run.")
I guess we’re getting to the point where you need to start factoring the potential for a trade to cause conference rivals to lose their minds and make awful trades. If the Lakers trade can cause two of their chief rivals to make dumb trades then we’ve got to change the way we look at trades generally.
Dear Matt,
SHUT UP GODDAMMIT!!!!!!!
Love,
A Nets Fan
Yeah, I'm reading the same as Quarterican: his agent told him to put it on hold for a little bit. I don't know exactly why the agent said that, but it has nothing to do with avoiding New Jersey or playing time or whatever. (In fact, George was asking for a trade just two weeks ago because of a lack of PT.)
And it doesn't help that that very night that George blocks the trade, he goes 0-fer-11 from the field.
I'm still reasonably optimistic that the deal will get done.
Dear Matt,
SHUT UP GODDAMMIT!!!!!!!
Love,
A Nets Fan
Woah. There's another Nets fan who comments here? What are the odds on that?
For the record, his comment was my first thought. I just decided to be a little more tactful.
Personally, I think Devin Harris is too much to give up for a 35-year-old Kidd, let alone adding Diop and 2 first-round picks.
Gawd, yes. But, hey, it's Cuban's team.
Bring back Jim Jackson, too!
And Jamal Mashburn!
Al--
I just decided to be a little more tactful.
So you're a Nets fan not from the New York area? What are the odds of that?
In the interview after last night's game, George basically said that his agent was out of town and he hadn't had a chance to discuss the trade with him.
This trade would be a horrible move for Dallas. It wil not improve them significantly in the short term, is more likely to make them worse, and will make them significantly worse over the long term. Harris is better than Kidd right now and is only 24; Kidd is 35 and declining, and his style will not fit in well with Dallas. George is expendable and Stackhouse is washed up, by why make a bad trade even worse by throwing in Diop and 2 first round picks? With Diop gone, Dallas will be left with the often-injured Dampier and the completely useless Juwann Howard inside. Yeah, that will make them more competitive against LA, Phoenix, and San Antonio.
On behalf of Spurs fans, I concur with calling all toasters.
Tangentially, Denver is on pace to win 50 games, and is currently out of the playoffs. WTF?
They'd be third seed in the East...
"And it doesn't help that that very night that George blocks the trade, he goes 0-fer-11 from the field."
It might already be uncomfortable for George with Mavs fans, some of whom booed and heckled him during the late stages of an 0-for-11 shooting night in Dallas' 96-76 win over the Blazers after news of George's stance began to spread.
George said: "Fans were like, 'C'mon, what are you doing? Stop it. You're holding things up. ... Quit being selfish. C'mon, we want Kidd.'"
were the Mavericks going to pay Devean George enough money next year that Larry Bird rights makes a difference??? Uh, no.
The explanation I saw on ESPN last night was that because George probably isn't good enough to get the midlevel exemption (and because teams are increasingly reluctant to use the midlevel anyway for luxury tax reasons), probably the only way he can get any kind of decent payday is if the Mavs re-sign him (and I'm pretty sure they are over the cap) or if he gets dealt in a sign-and-trade. But he can't get dealt in a decent sign-and-trade if he loses his Larry Bird rights, which he would if he were traded.
Dallas would have a significantly better shot at a title this year and next with this trade-Harris is above average while Kidd is still playing like a hall of famer. Then, when Kidd's contract expires, they would have some cap room (and who wouldn't want to play with Nowitzki and Howard?).
Devin Harris is averaging 14 and 5 in his 4th season; big deal. Why would you pass on Kidd to keep him?
Since when do hall of famers shoot 36% from the field?
while Kidd is still playing like a hall of famer
Wow, how drunk are you? The Spurs with Parker have to be excited, the Hornets with Paul have to be excited, the Jazz with Williams have to be excited. And everybody else that matters--the Lakers, in particular--has to be glad that there's going to be one less speedy guard to give them trouble in the playoffs. Is there a team in the chase that shouldn't be cheering this move? Maybe GS, if Baron gets fat again.
blah, admittedly, it was a different era, but in case you don't know, bob cousy's career shooting percentage was....375 (TS = .446).
kidd this year is at .366 (career .401), TS = .483 (with, of course, the benefit of the 3-pointer).
indeed, the cooz never had a season with a shooting percentage above .400....
But SCMT, Kidd probably wouldn't guard guys like Parker. They'd let Terry guard the small guys and Kidd would guard the 2-guards. One part of Dallas's problem has been that they don't have someone who can guard a 2-guard, since their 2-guard, Terry, is too small. Kidd fixes that.
Also, blah, I can think of one HoFer who never shot .400 at any time in his career: Bob Cousy.
Howard and I are always on the same wavelength - sports-wise, at least.
Since when do hall of famers shoot 36% from the field?
Bob Cousy shot 37.5% for his career.
Who was the last player to average 8 rebounds and 10 assists? That's awesome. Magic only did it once. The Big O did it 3 times. Kidd is doing it now. (Note: Kidd is not as good as Magic and Oscar.)
Plus: Kidd is the 3rd leading scorer on NJ, but would be 4th on Dallas. It stands to reason that he would shoot less and shoot more efficiently on Dallas.
al, it is amazing how often we agree on sports matters, but this one is almost scary! within 1 minute of each other! and close to the same words....
Kidd's averaging nearly a goddamn triple-double. Of course that's HOF quality. Al is right that Kidd isn't as good as Magic or Oscar, but he's in the 2nd tier of PGs all time, right below those two.
"Devin Harris is averaging 14 and 5 in his 4th season; big deal. Why would you pass on Kidd to keep him?"
Exactly. I really don't understand the Devin Harris infatuation. He's a poor man's Monta Ellis. He's not a legit PG, and as a quick little PG-sized scoring 2-guard, he's not as good as Monta or Barbosa. Giving up Diop probably hurts them more.
too many steves, it's a fine point, but speaking as a resident old-timer, in oscar's day they didn't really talk in terms of "point guards" and "shooting guards;" my recollection is that insofar as we can apply today's "1" and "2" guard terminology, adrian smith was the "1" for most of oscar's career, and then the young stormin' norman van lier....
of course, oscar ran the offense, so by those standards, we could call him a "point" guard: it's a tricky definitional matter.
regardless, when i pick my all-time 5 to defend the earth against space invaders, my first team guards are earvin and michael; my second team guards are oscar and jerry west.
Fair enough. In my head I think of Oscar as mostly a 1 and Jerry West as mostly a 2, but obviously either guy could play either position. So, when the space invaders come, do we get to play Russell at the 4 and Wilt at the 5? Or is that cheating?
too many steves, yes, i do regard that as cheating, so my full teams are:
team 1:
russ
bird
rodman
earvin
michael
team 2:
wilt
kevin garnett
toss up between elgin and julius
jerry
oscar
howard -
I'm perplexed. So is San Antonio cheating? By any reasonable definition he's a center, he's just a center who spends a lot of time at the 4. Bird played the 4 as well as the 3, but it's not like he magically morphed into a "power forward" when doing so. I think the first step in my crusade to revamp the inadequate positional names would be to sever them from the numbers - Iverson is a combo guard who mostly plays the 2, Arenas is a combo guard who mostly plays the 1.
Since my space invader defense team wouldn't be handicapped by All Star Game Starter foolish restrictions, I guess I'd take Wilt and Russ together. (Though I could make a case for 1996-era Shaq based on the extremity of his physical extraordinariness.) I see and like what you're doing with the Rodman pick, but on a team that already has a dominant post scorer, I think Russell and Rodman are duplication.
There is no Devin Harris infatuation. There is only anti-Jason Kidd infatuation. It is stupid to trade an improving 24 year old who is fast as hell and provides strong perimiter defense for an aging and decling 35 year old pg who shoots 36% and throw in one of your better defensive big men and throw in two first round picks.
Quarterican is right. If Russell could play the 4 -- and I'm saying he could -- then the Earth Team should be able to play him there. I also think it's weird to go with Russell and Rodman. One or the other, yes.
But what if the aliens had a really quick, perimeter-shooting 4? Russ could have trouble. Even worse, what if their power forward was like 10 feet tall and had 4 arms? Even Russell would be screwed. We'd have to get Ditka.
quarterican, my attitude is that wilt and russ both played center, so to assign one of them another position for purposes of putting them together (even to defend the earth!) is "cheating," whereas duncan actually does play the 4.
as for russ and rodman: you know, i've thought about this a long time and i vary my opinion on a regular basis, but the russ/rodman teaming ultimately reflects my bias towards defense and rebounding. my attitude is that michael and bird give that 5-some all the scoring they need, so what i'm looking for is to use russ and rodman to shut down the opposition's front line, dominate the defensive boards, and trigger fast breaks (russ pitches it out to earvin; michael and bird fill the lanes, russ is the trailer and rodman the cleanup guy).
speaking of duncan, btw, on team 2, one of my regular back-and-forths is garnett or duncan, and just as you wonder about russ/rodman, i wonder about wilt/duncan....
Obviously, the aliens may have physical advantages unknown to us. It's possible that no human born could compete with them; all we can do is assemble the ahistorical starting five that would give us the best chance, all things being equal. Our last, best hope for peace. (Or victory. Or getting JMStraczynski to be a touch less portentious.)
OTOH, maybe the aliens are like us physically but have idiosyncratic ideas about what makes a good basketball team. In Space Jam, recall, the aliens stole the powers of Shawn Bradley, Ewing, Barkley, Larry Johnson, and Muggsy Bogues - a ridiculously tall center, a normal center, a smallish power forward, a really small power forward, and the tiniest point guard imaginable. That was strange, and might call for a different methodology in choosing how we match up with them.
too many steves: one more point about the rodman choice: he defended 5s, 4s, 3s, and 2s in his career, always in exemplary fashion, so that's why i want him....
quarterican, very droll.
you remind me of pat riley's attitude in the '80s that the team of the future would be 5 guys between 6'5 and 6'10, all good ballhandlers, all good shooters so who knows? maybe that's what we need to beat the aliens!
Would we really trust Rodman to play against the space aliens? What if they called him home during the game and he switched sides?
Seriously, Rodman was awesome, especially in the Detroit years, but I don't think I'd want such a one-way player on my all-time starting 5, when there are so many great 2-way players to choose from. Especially with Russell already filling the "guy who would never shoot" role.
Yeah, at the Save Our Planet level, I'd prefer to have cleanup guys who could actually contribute more but are confident and bright enough not to force it. (Of course, this theory has worked so well for our Olympic teams.) The funny thing about reflexively grabbing the Jordan/Magic/Bird troika is that they actually do kind of bring different skill sets to the table and between them cover anything you'd want out of your 1/2/3. My only concern would be on the defensive end, if the aliens had a really speedy backcourt.
too many steves, the flip side of your point is to look over at team 2: there are 5 monster scorers on that team (all of them 2-way players), but put them together and there may not be enough balls to satisfy them (unless, of course, space alien basketball requires 2 basketballs being used simultaneously).
of course, in reality, this is a litmus test for what we care about in basketball, and as i say, i'm a defense/rebounding buy, so i'd love to have rodman and russ together (after all, who is rodman but a better version of satch sanders, and the celts managed to win a few titles with those two together - and since we're waxing on about this, i always think of the playoff game where elgin scored something like 53 and everyone congratulated satch on his "great defense," since the way baylor was playing that night, he could easily have scored 100).
But SCMT, Kidd probably wouldn't guard guys like Parker. They'd let Terry guard the small guys and Kidd would guard the 2-guards.
I'm sure Kobe, Ellis, Iverson, and possibly Barbosa are looking forward to that. And in return, an iso team like the Mavs gets...a better ball-handler. And, I suppose, rebounds, which are actually valuable.
This is a bad trade.
As a Celts fan, watching Banks/Davis/Blount tonight brings back such memories...on point, initially, as a Laker fan as well (I know, crazy), I was a bit freaked out by the Kidd deal. But I've been convinced by the crowd here, give Deavan the money!
the spurs -- in particular, timmy -- have to be thrilled the mavs might send diop on his way. how do the mavs stop tim with only damp? shaq can probably still make damp look bad. let alone bynum/gasol. i can't imagine what the mavs are thinking, but find it enormously entertaining (just like the shaq trade).
Comments closed February 28, 2008.
| 
Heads in the Sand
Anybody know how important Devean George is to the deal? Is his salary important or something? Or could they just do the trade without him?
Also, how the hell did Devean George get a no-trade clause?
I'm undecided on this deal -- Kidd is awesome, and he'd help Dallas, but I'm afraid the Mavs are doing the same thing the Suns did: overreacting to a playoff loss.
Posted by too many steves | February 14, 2008 11:49 AM