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Listening to Sageman

28 Feb 2008 02:42 pm

David Ignatius says that "politicians who talk about the terrorism threat -- and it's already clear that this will be a polarizing issue in the 2008 campaign -- should be required to read a new book by a former CIA officer named Marc Sageman." The good news, from my point of view, is that based on Ignatius' writeup, Sageman's new book doesn't sound all that different from his previous book, Understanding Terror Networks. Bottom line:

[W]e are not facing what President Bush called "the decisive ideological struggle of the 21st century and the calling of our generation," but something that is more limited and manageable -- if we make good decisions.

The trouble is that ever since 9/11, we've adopted a set of incredibly harmful and counterproductive policies (the war in Iraq has, of course, been considerably more costly in terms of lives lost, people crippled, and stuff destroyed than was 9/11). Rather than taking a focused, disciplined approach to a dangerous-but-manageable situation, the Bush administration has engaged in a series of flailing overreactions that have, improbably, actually made it possible for a relatively small group of people to dramatically alter the course of the world without expending any vast resources. The whole thing's been a disaster. James Fallows points out that you can find much material along these lines in his great 2006 cover story on the need to back off from the idea of a "war on terror."

In my forthcoming book, Heads in the Sand I observe that there's a substantial political problem here as well. Given how firmly entrenched the wrongheaded framework is, it's generally not worth any particular politician's while on any particular day to stick his or her neck out and try to prick the conceptual bubble Bush has erected around these questions. It's risky. It makes more sense to try to just come up with ideas that make sense within the Massive Ideological Struggle framework. But as long as that framework goes unchallenged, it's incredibly difficult to make the case for liberal alternatives to the policies we've been implementing.

That's where outside pressure and things like primary campaigns can make a difference -- they create situations in which the balance of incentives can flip and people have reason to start trying to dismantle the sort of grandiose vision that Bush and now John McCain have been propounding. However it gets done in the end, however, the main point is that it's absolutely vital to do it over the long run. Trying to cram good policies into a framework that was designed to support bad policies is a thankless and ultimately futile task.

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Comments (28)

As for overreacting, one of the unfortunate things about the way the politics of war in this country plays out, is that NOT overreacting would've almost certainly lost the sitting President his job. That doesn't mean invading Iraq was the obvious unavoidable political choice, but the U.S. Constitution was certainly never going to emerge from 9/11 unscathed.

I promise to buy your new book if you promise not to remove any of the typos.

Rather than taking a focused, disciplined approach to a dangerous-but-manageable situation, the Bush administration has engaged in a series of flailing overreactions...

Exactly right. And how this is framed is crucial. I think the Democrats' message should be that 9/11 caused Bush to panic. The axis of evil speech, the war in Iraq, etc, are a result of Bush panicking.

Now for the part where the best political framing does not coincide with reality: The sad truth is that 9/11 was just a case of bin Laden getting lucky, and neither he nor radical Islam pose much of a threat to us at all. The Democrats tend to emphasize the threat from al Qaeda specifically, whereas the Republicans emphasize the threat from radical Islam in general. I think this is mostly due to the two camps responding to Bush's missteps to their own benefit. I think that actually both sides are wrong, in that there is little threat to us from either radical Islam or al Qaeda. The difference is that the consequences of the Republican errors are much worse.

The axis of evil speech, the war in Iraq, etc, are a result of Bush panicking.

No no no. They're the result of Bush choosing to listen to the most belligerent and forceful of his advisers. It was a fist pumping frat boy reaction.

But how could you ever say this in a campaign against someone like McCain?

The defining challenge and calling is of course climate change and saving the planet, without which even the struggle against terrorists will become academic.

You seem to know plenty about this topic, Matt: why don't you write a book?

"the war in Iraq has, of course, been considerably more costly in terms of lives lost, people crippled, and stuff destroyed than was 9/11"

Why can't this be said, over and over?

John McCain: More of the Same!

What an odd Ignatius column. He writes:

He attacks head-on the central thesis of the Bush administration, echoed increasingly by Republican presidential candidate John McCain, that, as McCain's Web site puts it, the United States is facing "a dangerous, relentless enemy in the War against Islamic Extremists" spawned by al-Qaeda.

The numbers say otherwise, Sageman insists.

Um, huh? What exactly do the "numbers" say? That al Qaeda isn't "dangerous" (which would be odd, since a few sentences below, he says they remain dangerous)? That they are not "relentless"? That they aren't our "enemy"? That they aren't at "War" with us? That they aren't "Extremists"?

Al- it'd help you if you bothered to read one paragraph down:

The numbers say otherwise, Sageman insists. The first wave of al-Qaeda leaders, who joined Osama bin Laden in the 1980s, is down to a few dozen people on the run in the tribal areas of northwest Pakistan. The second wave of terrorists, who trained in al-Qaeda's camps in Afghanistan during the 1990s, has also been devastated, with about 100 hiding out on the Pakistani frontier. These people are genuinely dangerous, says Sageman, and they must be captured or killed. But they do not pose an existential threat to America, much less a "clash of civilizations."

He's not saying they're not dangerous - he's saying the number of them who are still operating has been greatly exaggerated. And that a faction of extremist wackos does not mean that we have to remake the entire culture of the Middle East as Bush and McCain wish to do.

"Make sense within the Massive Ideological Struggle framework"

I always liked the apt, yet sort of clumsy, Internet/virus framework for terrorism. It emphasizes the right things: containment, the inability of sheer force to crush it (blowing up your computer fixes nothing), adaptation of the enemy and us, multi-faceted approaches to more fully destroy the threat, the "new reality" of living in the 21st century ... and it shifts the focus away from unhelpful "they're evil Nazi fascists, let's kill them all!!!!" stuff that distracts from focusing on solutions.

He's not saying they're not dangerous

Really? How do you get that from a sentence that reads "These people are genuinely dangerous"?

Al- it'd help ...

Stop right there. Al's the kind of guy that CREEP was coined for. "Help" isn't in the cards.

Sageman should be required reading for the nation as a whole.

Al, is a troll. I see his name and spit and read past. Why bother?

Is this the post to renew the request for advance warning of your book launch event?

the Bush administration has engaged in a series of flailing overreactions

That's where I think you mischaracterize, Matt. These were not "flailing overreactions," they were deliberate, calculated attempts to use 9/11 to create an existential threat. Because having an existential threat is key to enforcing the kind of mindless fealty to one's country and, more importantly, the government that Bush was so keen to create. It's pretty typical of a certain political leaning that I would accuse Bush of except for the fact that Jonah Goldberg has assured me it's purely a liberal phenomenon.

Matt,

You should check out Chris Bowers post McCain's attempts in blurring the lines between him and Obama with respect to Iraq.

http://www.openleft.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=4223

1) Glenn is right. Bush hasn't been FIGHTING a "War on Terrorism " --Bush has been EXPLOITING a "War on Terrorism". Hence, the need to let Bin Laden stay at large.

2) As Sun Tzu noted, if you want to find the enemy's weakness, look at the source of his strength. The Republicans have raised a lot of money using 911 to promote special interests -- to grab oil deposits for Big Oil, divert a Trillion from Social Security/Medicare to Big Defense, and to strongly court billionaire financiers of the Israel Lobby.

But if their systemic DECEIT is ever Fully exposed to the American People, the Republican Party will be doomed. Just like the Federalists.

3) It's not hard to deal with a 300 lb Wrestler once he's fixed in position -- just take a hammer and hit his fucking kneecap really hard.

The ideological struggle is a subterfuge for not looking at the real problem - our foreign policy within the Middle East. Bin Laden and Al Qaeda are more concerned with our military and financial support for oppressive Arab dictators, our military bases in Arab countries, and our support of Israel, than any of our ideals (democracy, equal rights, or even women wearing pant suits, etc). Unless these policies change, Al Qaeda is dangerous. Any attempt to help the people in the Middle East "see the light" on our ideals is only going to anger them even more - case in point, Iraq, Pakistan, and Afghanistan. We need to get seriously smart on our energy policy and cut ties with the Saudi's. I don't know about how we stop supporting Israel. But I've been told by our current administration changing our policy is giving in to and negotiating with the terrorists. So let's keep pretending that converting them to our ideals is going to stop terrorism...

Al, is a troll.

He's not just a troll. He's the archtroll, one of the blogosphere's legendary features. Many people have suspected him of being a professional, trolling for pay from Scaife. How else do you explain his 24/7 availability for trollish posting on multiple blogs? My own theory, however, is that he's a cutting edge computer program, and that his name, often misread, is not "Al", but "AI"

You can also check out Sageman's article for Foreign Policy magazine, "The Next Generation of Terror," in our new issue here:

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/cms.php?story_id=4168

Best,
Blake Hounshell
Web Editor, ForeignPolicy.com

Whenever I talk about how stupid the idea of a "War on Terror" is
I use the analogy : How bad would it have been if after the attack on Pearl Harbor, FDR decided to declare War on Sneak Attacks and then promptly invaded Mexico because Pancho Villa was a sneaky guy?

and then promptly invaded Mexico because Pancho Villa was a sneaky guy?

Or decided to invade North Africa...

Oh, wait.

Matt

There is a way out of the 'massive ideological struggle' framework, and in fact your colleague James Fallows suggested it in the very cover story you cite. I've written about it on the Lowy Institute's blog, The Interpreter:

http://www.lowyinterpreter.org/post/2008/02/Reframing-the-war-on-terror.aspx

"his name, often misread, is not "Al", but "AI""

Well, if he's an AI, then he's proof of the line somebody came up with years ago:

"If we ever invent an AI which is as smart as Casper Weinberger, we'll all be in big trouble."

Those who criticize Matt for mis-characterizing Bush's actions are correct. Matt is sublimely naive to believe that Bush really believes any of the crap he speaks in public.

But then, Matt is sublimely naive about just about everything.

There can be no question that the entire "War on Terror" crap is just another example of Chancellor Sutler screaming, "I want EVERYONE to remember WHY THEY NEED US!"

We have the PNAC documents. Everybody knows about them. Everybody knows the neocons were just waiting - and possibly scheming - for a "Pearl Harbor" to justify their grand Imperial America push. 9/11 - probably with the help of the Mossad - gave them what they wanted. Had the Iraqis refused to bow down to US "shock and awe" and not started the insurgency, by this time we would have attacked both Iran and Syria and probably Pakistan as well. The neocons, Dick Cheney and the Israelis are STILL agitating for an attack on Iran as we read here.

So anybody who thinks this was just some kind of "panic reaction" on the part of Bush is just completely clueless.

That was a reference to you, Matt.

Nice to see that the concept that Obama is attempting to introduce to the great American psyche, that American aggression cloaked in the guise of defense is the cause of the rise of, well fear at a minimum. Giving idiots, losers and drug dealing thrill seekers something to do with their spare time at the other end of the extreme.

If you are interested in this line of thinking, you also want to look up Scott Atran. He has been studying these incidents, the people involved and coming to the same conclusions. Unfortunately, he too is attracting significantly less attention than the right wing fear mongers. And getting no help from people like Sam Harris who appear to be adding more confusion than clarity to the mix.

Perhaps this is due to the fact that, there is no money to be made in not being afraid.

This video is a bit longer than your normal youtube affair but well worth the time in the event that you harbor thoughts of the boogeyman hiding under your bed.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5701806759199654816&q=scott+atran&total=12&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

Thanks to Blake Hounshell for an excellent link.

And thanks to Al for my morning chuckle. Did FDR "take his eye off the ball" when he responded to the Japanese attack at Pearl Harbor by attacking the Vichy French and Mussolini's Italian troops in North Africa?

Even artificial intelligence is preferable to no intelligence at all, ie Jennifer, Hack, and the other stalwarts of the lunatic fringe.

Sageman makes excellent points in terms of the reality of the "terrorist threat", not least that the real danger today comes much more from European cities than from Waziristan. It is dramatically counterproductive to be treating these people as fearsomely dangerous warriors in a great struggle, which is how they want to be seen, instead of pathetic weenies with bizarre ideation who are more of a criminal nuisance than an existential threat.

That said, the idea that we are boosting terrorist recruiting by fighting in Iraq misses the point. We have saved countless Muslim lives by taking on genocidal tyrannies in places like Bosnia, Afghanistan, and Iraq. What boosts terrorist recruiting is the Quisling press, which spreads endless lies about the verifiable facts of when, why, and how we actually got into a war in Iraq (hint-it wasn't because of the machinations of a clique of deviants in the White House post-9/11); the nature of the fighting (most Iraqi casualties, which according to the best data are about 15-20% of the numbers usually bandied about, haven't been caused by the US); our goals (a stable Persian Gulf rather than "stealing Arab oil"), etc. etc.


Comments closed March 13, 2008.

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