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NY versus Illinois

07 Feb 2008 05:27 pm

I was looking over the exit polls for Illinois and New York and there's an interesting pattern to the data. In her home state, Hillary Clinton did better among pretty much all groups than she does nationwide. Still, Obama won his core constituencies -- young people and African-Americans. In Illinois, by contrast, Obama pretty much ran the table, eking out narrow wins even in bad demographic groups like old people and Hispanics. He even won women 64-35.

Now maybe this just reflects that fact that New York was more seriously contested than Illinois. Obama didn't put resources into trying to win the state per se, but he was playing for New Jersey and Connecticut in the same media market and did some fundraisers and rallies over the months. But on the other hand, it does fit a broader pattern, namely that the better people keep to know Obama, the more they seem to like him. Every state he campaigns in shows a strong upward trajectory, and in the state where he's best-known, even the most skeptical demographic groups come around to him. Hillary Clinton, by contrast, has her base and it's a big base, but the tendency is to only drop down from that level.

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Comments (143)

From the perspective of the Dems, I don't understand why it's so great that Obama attracts independents and Republicans (that is, in the primaries). Aren't we supposed to be against looking like Republicans? Aren't we supposed to be distinguishing ourselves from the Republican party -- showing our differences, and not DLCing ourselves so much? Also, I'm still not convinced that the Repubs and Inds willing to vote for Obama in the primaries would be willing to vote for him in the general against McCain, who appeals to the exact same demographic.

Besides old people and women, isn't her "base" mostly just low-information voters that recognize her last name?

The more people know Obama, the more they like him and the more support he gets. Can the same thing really be said about Clinton?

Did better??? She didn't even break 60% in her home state. That's better?

And let's not forget that Miss Carpetbagger herself actually grew up in Illinois, where she got stomped.

"the better people know Obama, the more they seem to like him. Every state he campaigns in shows a strong upward trajectory"*

*assuming Republicans are too cowed by his awesomeness to run negative ads against him

"They like him. They really like him!"

You've got to be kidding. Obama campaigned pretty hard in California, and MA, and didn't sway all that many folks.

Granted, the chardonnay crowd is pretty easy to impress, but the beer-drinkers are more discerning.

Lisa,

Sounds like a plan. Lets tell all the swing voters to get bent. McGovern 2008!

Seriously though, Obama is a liberal Democrat that appeals to independents and Democrats. Clinton is a centrist Democrat that appeals to Democrats. Not too hard of a decision, if you ask me.

Now you see why Obama will win every contest between now and March, not only do they play to his demographics, but he's got plenty of time to get his message out.

Hillary is gonna drop out close to March 4th to protect her image.

Actually, Obama did sway people in CA and MA. The problem was that the Clinton campaign was smart and got as many voters as possible to cast their votes early before they got seduced into the Obama cult.

Besides old people and women, isn't her "base" mostly just low-information voters that recognize her last name?

This kind of condescending attitude is why your candidate will not win.

You ought to get to know a few of these "low-information voters." You'd find that they're smarter than you think.

Besides old people and women, isn't her "base" mostly just low-information voters that recognize her last name?

This kind of condescending attitude is why your candidate will not win.

You ought to get to know a few of these "low-information voters." You'd find that they're smarter than you think.

I dunno, it seems to me that the more people see of Hillary, the more they like her, too. I think the problem is that Hillary's starting point is lower - so many people who don't know Hillary have been taught to hate and loathe and despise her, whereas people who don't know Obama pretty much just don't know him.

John Petty,

Yes, because Illinois is a real chardonnay-drinking kind of place. Have you been to Carbondale?

Cults are huge here too.

I personally think it was a mistake for Obama to leave Oprah, Michelle and Maria Shriver to campaign for him in California while he was in Boise, Idaho.

I'd say it reflects that New York was more seriously contested than Illinois. Obama also used people from Illinois to work in Iowa heading into that primary. So despite there not being a serious attempt of either campaign to campaign to the Illinois voters, Obama had a large amount of campaign workers working for him already.

There were also advertisements of people running in the Democratic primaries that highlighted the support they've received or gave to Obama. Chicago primaries are also somewhat strange in that the primary is more important than the general election. The city is overwhelmingly Democratic with a huge political machine.

I agree with bobbo. One of the big surprises of the campaign is what a great candidate Clinton is. I'm supporting Obama primarily because of the Iraq war vote. Absent that, I could easily see myself supporting Clinton.

Wait wait wait. I thought Illinois was Clinton's home state too.

Actually, Hillary's original home state is...Illinois. She didn't do all that well there, it seems.

Still, a better comparison with Obama's Illinois rout I think is Hillary's performance in Arkansas. She lived there way longer than she's been in New York.

So Illinois is her home state? What about Arkansas? How'd Osama do there?

"ne of the big surprises of the campaign is what a great candidate Clinton is."

What the hell evidence is there for that?

Smarter trolls, please.

How'd Osama do there?

I imagine that dark-skinned folks with funny names tend not to do too well in Arkansas. They probably don't get many votes there either.

This kind of condescending attitude is why your candidate will not win.

Uh, Reverend...how did you come by that little nugget? Divine inspiration? Did God speak to you in your sleep and tell you that Hillary is a reincarnation of Joan of Arc?

Stick to Fire and Brimstone, please.

From the perspective of the Dems, I don't understand why it's so great that Obama attracts independents and Republicans (that is, in the primaries).

Just admire that piece of logic.

People like Bill in Arkansas tend to screw their relatives, cook up batches of meth in the shed behind the trailer, and dislike any person darker than their fat wives (aka sister) after a few sessions at the local tanning salon.

Wow, this thread is a total trainwreck from all sides.

If you regard Illinois as HRC's home state, then Hawaii is BHO's home state. It remains to be seen how he'll do there (Feb 19th).

I think the more obvious explanation is that Obama is simply doing very well among the groups that make up his coalition: upper income process liberals, young liberals, well-educated liberals, and African-Americans. New York (because of New York City) has lots of representation from such groups. What's more troubling to the Obama narrative is the weakness of his claims to being highly competitive among swing voters. Well, I think "independents" is the term he uses -- but the implication is that he will do well in a general election among swayable voters who are up for grabs. If that's the case, I would have expected him to romp in purplish places like Tennessee, Arizona, and Missouri. Well, he didn't do quite so well in these states (I realize he did win a number of purplish places where they held caucuses, but the general election isn't a caucus). What's all the more troubling is, in a general election, he's going to have to undertake this task against John McCain.

People like Bill in Arkansas tend to screw their relatives, cook up batches of meth in the shed behind the trailer, and dislike any person darker than their fat wives (aka sister) after a few sessions at the local tanning salon.

Posted by Texas Pete | February 7, 2008 6:38 PM

Well, all I can say is that Texas makes Arkansas look like the most enlightened state in the Union. I won't even start in about what boys named George get up to over there.

Obama had commercials in NY up until Monday. He did events in New Jersey in the last 48 hours. He made a serious attenpt to win CDs in Harlem, the South Bronx and Brooklyn.

Hillary put essentially no resources into Illinois.

Occam's Razor.

A number of us have been posting this very idea for more than 3 weeks now. We already could see this from data in the first 4 Primary States. HRC's trajectory is that of the classical Name Recognition candidate who is unable to convert voters face to face. What happens is that the numbers start out sky-high, and then meeting voters face to face causes attrition.

Obama has the exact opposite effect.

This is all factual, and has been easily gleaned from the data since Iowa.

In fact, the in-depth sentiment polling done in Iowa before the Caucus showed a negative divergence for Hillary. In other words, likely voter polling indicated she would receive more votes than Obama. But, sentiment polling which does not ask respondents about voting, but rather, how they feel about the candidates showed a sharp, negative divergence for HRC and was a warning that an upset was coming.

If you followed the data, then....

1. The Iowa result was not a surprise.
2. That Hillary would suffer a significant challenge from Obama was not a surprise.
3. It should be no surprise that people are making the case that Obama would do better in the general election than Hillary.

I think "Perplexed" analysis is pretty plausible. I'll bet Obama did very well in the wealthiest zip codes of NYC, but much less well in Upstate, Queens, or Long Island.

As for Obama's very good IL numbers, I think it's because he's about the first plausible nominee from IL in many, many decades---I honestly can't remember the last IL one for either party. IL contains America's third largest city and used to be one of the largest and most politically influential states, but things have changed since Lincoln's day. People tend to root for their home team, especially when it hasn't reached the Playoffs in something like the last 100 years.

And remember, Obama's overall under-35% share of the non-black vote is coming the committed liberals who dominate Democratic primaries AND without his having been hit with a single "tough" attack ad. Not a great position from which to start your campaign...

"the better people keep to know Obama, the more they seem to like him"

Geez, why don't you just rename the blog "Obama boy" and be done with it?

The face remains that Obama took 40% of New York, while Hillary took 33% of Illinois. That is a huge difference. Many of the points upthread are also quite valid, especially wrt to the highly educated white vote in Manhattan, and the burbs of NYC. But Chicago too is not without those same demos, and, I might add two of Hillary's key demos: Blue Collar Dems and Hispanics. Illinois has a very significant Hispanic population, and it also has a TON of Cahtolics which if you look at data from other states Obama may be having some difficulty with Catholics. And yet, he was able to win those key groups of Hillary's in his home state.

I think it's hands down clear that Obama, on a very broad measures, did significantly better in the State of New York, than Hillary did in Illinois. It's also a preview of his stronger electability in the general as he will be MUCH more competitive in Missouri and Ohio than Hillary. Someone upthread said they were looking to see Obama do better, in MO. Fair point. But it's not like Hillary was stomping through MO either.

Bring on Ohio.

Gregor --

Couldn't have said it better myself. That Obama's success seems to be directly proportional to the amount of familiarity people have with him, and that Hillary has nowhere to go but down (or close to it) as a name-recognition default candidate has long seemed obvious to me.

The other big factor it seems is the amount of organization he's able to commit to contests. He lost Massachusetts because Clinton was able to far out-organize him, controlling from early on much of the local political apparatus (the LOCAL apparatus. She got most of the endorsements from state Senators and Reps. Obama got the Senators and Governor, but he got too late of a start on organizing to make a serious effort.)

The other thing that's hurt him so far was what happened in California. By conducting absentee-balloting two weeks before the election (while Edwards was still in the race and before his pre-Tuesday surge), his time was cut short. It's actually possible he WON same-day voting (or lost it very narrowly) but those who had to vote two weeks ahead of time and didn't get to see enough of him swung wildly against him.

Another interesting observation which raises many questions and no answers: Look at the total vote in each state. 2 million in IL, 1.7 million in NY. There are numerous plausible reasons for this - the home state is fired up, Obama is running a strategy that competes in every state, voting may be more difficult in NY than in IL (though as a Chicago resident, I somewhat doubt it), but all have enough confounding factors that I don't feel comfortable claiming it's one thing or another. Still, it's got to mean something that the vote totals look like that, when IL's population is 2/3rds that of NY's!

In re: "I honestly can't remember the last IL one for either party. IL contains America's third largest city and used to be one of the largest and most politically influential states, but things have changed since Lincoln's day."

Um, nice try but NOPE. Illinois is politically influential today. Dennis Hastert was speaker of the house for years. Rahm Emanuel was the force behind the 2006 Democratic takeover of Congress. How about the Daley family? Bill Daley, U.S. Secretary of Commerce during the Clinton Administration. Mayor Richard Daley of Chicago. I can't remember the last time a NY Senator was a viable candidate for president either. Supreme Court Justice Stevens.

Besides old people and women, isn't her "base" mostly just low-information voters that recognize her last name?

Sandy Brevard, if you can't see this for the condescending comment that it is, then I can't help you.

Those "low-information voters" just aren't very smart now, are they? And the people of Arkansas? Well, aren't they a bunch of hicks anyway?

You Obamabots should take a cue from your candidate--you know, all that "hope" and "unity" stuff?

Gregor,
how very misleading of you to say that they vote in iowa when they caucus which is just a big square dance, isn't it? Iowa was obama's neiighboring state and he had a big win there akin to tsongas winning in neighboring NH back when. And Hillary had high
15 million people voted on tuesday and half of them like Hillary just fine. Some of even tossed a few million dollars at her these past couple days.
And now, face facts, obama is a high name recognition guy too. and face facts: even hillary-hater chris matthews says she charms everyone in a room including him. New Yorkers like her up- close and personal and the facts that suggest that interpretation is that she won by wider margins in re-election than the first time: up close she closes the deal.
And mostly I just disagree with your opinions about there being facts that are self-evident from polls generally and exit polls specifically. you glean opinions and interpretations and perceptions from such data: hardly facts.

I live in California, in the Bay Area, and as far as I can tell, Obama didn't do much campaigning here. Until two days before the election, there were no Obama signs. I've seen almost no Obama bumper stickers. I saw no Obama ads on TV (but a few Hillary ads).

There were plenty of campaign ads, but they were all for or against the Indian casino plan.

This data:
http://www.time.com/time/2007/november_poll/
(more links here: http://www.pollster.com/blogs/times_how_america_decides_poll.php)

showed the same pattern: with prolonged exposure, Obama's negatives fell and his positives rose; in the case of Clinton exposure had the *opposite* effect.

Look at the results for "candidate says what he/she believes" and "strong moral character." (You have to pick 2 candidates and then mouse over the flash chart to see full data on how these attitudes moved over time.)


"Granted, the chardonnay crowd is pretty easy to impress, but the beer-drinkers are more discerning."

So John, I take it that this somehow isn't condescending? If you're going to complain about people being condescending, it would help your case if you weren't doing the exact same thing. Just saying.

John Petty,

The term "low-information voter" is not a reference to the intelligence of the voters in question; instead, the term refers to the amount of information those voters gather about the election before making a decision. They may be brilliant and have better things to research, or they may consider the choice of candidate relatively inconsequential, or they may not have access to a great deal of information, or whatever.

Survey research consistently indicates that low-information voters tend to vote for candidates with high name recognition. Hillary Clinton is famous from her many years in Washington; she's even more famous in Arkansas. Barack Obama, by contrast, is less famous and certainly less familiar. It stands to reason, then, that low-information voters favor Clinton. She has a natural advantage by virtue of her celebrity, and we can get to that conclusion without insulting anyone.

(Of course, Obama tends to do much better with highly educated voters. Make of that what you will.)

Obama's showing among women needs to be broken down. While it was 64-35 overall, it was 56-43 among white women, and he LOST Latino women 42-58.

Two thoughts:

First, Obama really does have incredibly broad support in Illinois: demographically, geographically, and even ideologically. And that should indeed tell you something about his long run political prospects (both in the general election and as a President).

Second, I am amused at people making the excuse for Clinton that she didn't make as much effort in Illinois as he made in New York. Assuming that is true, what exactly does it tell you? And while working out your answer, keep in mind the Democrats allocate delegates proportionally.

John Petty's "smart" low information voters:

"As he greeted voters outside P.S. 175 in Harlem on Tuesday morning, Lieutenant Governor David Paterson was explaining how he thought Mr. Obama would win the district when an elderly woman approached him and asked who she should vote for.

"Mr. Paterson, a prominent Clinton surrogate--he was the guy directly behind her as she gave her concession speech in Iowa--hesitated.

"'Uh, Hillary,' he offered sheepishly.

"'Uh, O.K. All right,' the woman said, somewhat dismissively, as Mr. Paterson chuckled at his predicament."

http://www.observer.com/2008/clinton-wins-here-power-revolt-splits-new-york

In New York, Obama beat Hillary by a point among people who decided how to vote the day of the primary, so that should tell you where the trends are going.

I volunteered for Obama in New York--there were 3 paid staffers in the entire state! I don't know what people mean when they say he devoted many resources here. We had some TV ads in the last week, but very little physical resources, and very few appearances by Obama or Michelle.

His success in New York is due in large part to the dedication of his volunteers, who worked much more visibly and passionately than Hillary supporters (at least in NYC). Obama's ability to inspire volunteers will continue to reap benefits.

More integrity, more progressive, more electable. Obama '08!

The better I get to know him, the less I like him.

I want to vote for a Democrat next November, not choose between two Republicans.

Obama does excellent with low experience voters. /snark

A subset of Obama's voting coalition has historically been part of the low-information Democratic base. He would not be in the position he is in now without their support. It is what sets Obama apart from typical "wine track" candidates in the past who peaked around 45% support in the primaries. (His ability to turnout youth and disinterested voters is impressive but is more about magnitude than a fundamental difference)

If you believe in democracy, then every vote should have equal weight.

how's about an obvious inference - when given the choice, African-Americans will more reliably vote for a fellow African-American than women will vote for fellow women.

And regardless, unless inane supporters continue saying stupid divisive things about the others, both groups will reliably support the Democratic nominee come November.

Beer drinkers more difficult to sway, Peter says? How does he explain Mr. Obama's sweep of red states? Obama can win every constituency except women who are excited about the prospect of the first woman president and Democratic Party elites who have been tied by self-interest to the Clinton machine since the nineties.

Colin:

If Obama's ratings go up with exposure and Hillary's go down, why is Obama ducking debates?

I've heard his excuse, and it's B.S.

It looks to me that he's afraid to go head to head with her.

Beer drinkers more difficult to sway, Peter says? How does he explain Mr. Obama's sweep of red states? Obama can win every constituency except women who are excited about the prospect of the first woman president and Democratic Party elites who have been tied by self-interest to the Clinton machine since the nineties. And we as Obama supporters are supposed to be ashamed that Obama can attract independents and Republicans? You're telling me that Obama is a DLC-type? Obviously the people making these claims know nothing of Obama's role in Illinois and Chicago politics before he was elected, nor seemingly his role in Washington politics, where the National Journal has ranked him the most liberal senator this year.

A black man who is the most liberal senator who can attract Republicans and independents? Obama represents a chance to seriously win converts to the progressive cause, and the elite Democratic party-types who oppose him sarcastically call him a DLC type. It's as if Hillary Clinton supporters WANT to maintain the status quo 51/49 game of Karl Rove politics: electoral victories without mandates.

Posted by John Petty | February 7, 2008 5:55 PM

"They like him. They really like him!"

You've got to be kidding. Obama campaigned pretty hard in California, and MA, and didn't sway all that many folks.

Granted, the chardonnay crowd is pretty easy to impress, but the beer-drinkers are more discerning.

Get your facts right.

Obama abandoned MA weeks before the primary, moving his operation to CT. Guess what, he won CT!

As for Cali, the Kennedy endorsements and appealing to Latinos came way too late to have a huge effect. All in all he made great last minute gains in both states from weeks before, but didn't put in the resources of time to make them competitive. Just the fact that he did better then the polls in each state a week before is an astounding victory.

I know caucuses "aren't supposed to matter" or whatever, but several of the states that Obama won (Kansas, Idaho, Utah etc) could hardly be called "chardonnay-drinking" states.

Obama isn't "ducking" the additional debates Clinton is suddenly proposing to stay at home. He is planning to keep his original stump schedule.

And why would he prefer doing that? Well, it just might have something to do with Obama not wanting to bail Clinton out of her financial difficulties by helping her get even more free TV time.

Beer drinkers more difficult to sway, Peter says? How does he explain Mr. Obama's sweep of red states?

A) Caucuses
B) Obama lost Oklahoma, Arizona and Tennessee -- that's hardly a sweep of the red states

I find it highly implausible that Obama's numbers would have been so good in his small red state wins had they been primaries. He hasn't won the white vote yet in a primary state outside of Illinois.

In Missouri, for instance, he barely got by Clinton. He did dominate in St. Louis and Kansas City, but she won all 100 rural counties outside those metro areas. Counties, in other words, where Democrats usually have a hard time winning votes. Obama, by contrast, won the areas where Democrats usually win big.

So much for Obama's much vaunted ability to go after centrists. His electability is looking more and more like a mirage.

That said, I like the guy a lot. It's just that my dislike of the idea of a president McCain exceeds my admiration for him.

Chuck:

If Obama wants to win converts to the progressive cause, why doesn't he run as a progressive?

DTM:

According to the latest news, Clinton's money troubles are over. And both candidates schedules are very flexible.

But it doesn't answer the question:

If exposure helps him and hurts her, he should be eager to go head to head. But he isn't.

Why?

He hasn't won the white vote yet in a primary state outside of Illinois.

In California, Obama took 40% of White women, and 60% of White Men.

How do those numbers strike you?

In California, HRC took 53% of White women, and 33% of White men.

So how does this compare to your statement that Obama hasn't won the white vote yet, in any state outside of IL?

Shall I go on to other states? Or shall I stop there?


http://politics.nytimes.com/election-guide/2008/results/vote-polls/CA.html

I vote for show other states preferably ones that had a primary. I would also like to know how he does with rural white NRA members who are married to a non-white spouse so I can know whether I should vote for him or Clinton. Thanks

Um, yeah, this weird obsession with "the white vote" is just arrant nonsense. In the largest primary state, at least, it was apparent that whites mostly split between the candidates on Tuesday, with white women going (mostly) for Clinton, and white men going (mostly) for Obama. If there's anything that Obama should *really* be worried about, it's the Latino vote (IMO).

So how does this compare to your statement that Obama hasn't won the white vote yet, in any state outside of IL?

Gregor: I'm not sure how it "compares" or what point you're trying to make. What your information doesn't do, of course, is provide evidence contrary to my original assertion, that Obama has yet to win the white vote in a state outside of Illinois. None of this would matter, of course, if whites didn't make up, oh, three quarters of the people likely to be casting votes in November.

Re: my point about Missouri -- I'm not saying Obama couldn't win a place like Missouri in November. He might be able to take it by duplicating his primary performance (dominating the urban areas enough to put together 51%). But again, what we're told is that Obama expands the reach of Democrats. He unites us, and brings in Republicans. And yet, that bellwether state, at least, provides evidence to the contrary: Hillary ran stronger in rural, white, culturally conservative areas of the Show Me state. You would expect her tent to be bigger in November based on those results, because she won in areas where it's tough for Democrats to do so, and in a general election should be expected to win easily in areas where it's always easier for Democrats. I think that's prima facie evidence that the hype about Obama's greater electability vis a vis Hillary is just that. In fact Obama hasn't expanded beyond his coalition of African Americans and latte liberals. His is a niche candidacy whose ingredients are popularity among wealthy liberals (which makes for a very well-funded campaign), very smart use of that money to build a superb organization, and then leveraging that organization into caucus victories to augment his modest gains elsewhere. I see some evidence he's getting younger people to register and vote, but no evidence whatsoever he's pulling in people who would normally vote Republican, and also no evidence his process liberalism candidacy (which stubbornly and somewhat perplexingly downplays economic issues) would strongly hold down the votes of moderate and/or conservative purple state Democrats against the siren call of a John McCain candidacy. We're not going to be running against Duncan Hunter this November. John McCain has a powerful hold on the imagination of a lot of moderate voters -- quite a few of them Democrats.

Let's face it, outside the African-American community, the only segment of the population that Obama consistently does well with is the latte-sipping elites. He consistently does quite poorly among the working class and poor, unless, again, they are African-American (who understandably have a real bond with him).

What does it say about the man's message of hope that the large majority of those who might be in the greatest need of hope simply refuse to vote for him, and vote for Hillary instead? How authentic might that message of hope possibly be if those least in need of it, the privileged elites, are the ones who seem to respond to it, and in the working class it achieves so little resonance?

Obama isn't comforting the afflicted, or even afflicting the comfortable. He's comforting the comfortable.

In the largest primary state, at least, it was apparent that whites mostly split between the candidates on Tuesday, with white women going (mostly) for Clinton...

Abby: I hope the DNC is not taking advice from you this fall. The "largest primary state" is not in danger of falling to the Republicans. The race will be decided in places like Ohio and Missouri.

John Edwards was rightly thought to be strongest Democratic general election candidate. Hillary Clinton is the strongest of the two survivors, for similar reasons. I can understand why some people might have thought differently. I thought so myself, to be honest, several weeks ago. But clear-eyed analysis tells me otherwise, now that the dust of Super Tuesday has settled. Hillary Clinton really is our best bet at taking back the White House, especially now that it's clear the GOP is putting up a centrist who will compete very hard for the votes of conservative Democrats, moderate independents and Latinos. There's a reason they called it McCain-Kennedy, you know.

Perplexed

With regard to Missouri, you are making this assumption that Clinton's supporters would not vote for Obama in the general election after all they are Democrats. If democrats were to maintain the same level of energy we see in the primaries then we should win the general election.

Obama isn't comforting the afflicted, or even afflicting the comfortable. He's comforting the comfortable.

Bingo.

I'm just looking at what the data tells me, myiq. Can you offer an better interpretation of the data I posted links to?

I'm not doing campaign strategy, but the Clinton campaign was proposing something like five debates in the next month, which is an unusual pace. The question is how often your campaign schedule incorporates debates, not whether.

Re "Republican," Obama has positions that can be criticized fairly, and it would be great to have discussions of those! But calling him a Republican is idiotic. Two years ago Democrats running for House and Senate requested campaign appearances by Obama more than any other member of Congress, and he pitched in and helped. And how often do Senators Daschle, Kerry, and Kennedy campaign for Republicans? Obama is a loyal and hard-working Democrat.

Maybe you could explain to us what you mean by the term "progressive."


With regard to Missouri, you are making this assumption that Clinton's supporters would not vote for Obama in the general election after all they are Democrats.

No I'm not. I'm making the assumption that:

a) Naturally there would be some drop off (away from Obama among Clinton supporters) in favor of McCain in rural parts of Missouri in a general election (these are, for the most part, moderate and culturally conservative voters, after all) should Obama win the nomination.

b) There would less drop off in Missouri urban areas (away from Clinton among Obama supporters) to McCain should Clinton win the nomination.

What I'm saying, in other words, is that their respective primary performances sure suggest Hillary gets us more votes in Missouri (although Obama could certainly win). Maybe I'm overlooking something obvious. I'd be happy -- and relieved -- to be corrected.

myiq2xu,

Again, Obama is going to be putting himself before voters. He just isn't willing to add more debates than those already scheduled in order to help Clinton expose herself.

perplexed,

Well, it seems to me you are pretty much assuming your conclusion. In other words, you seem to be asserting that if states like Idaho had been primary states instead of caucus states, Obama would have lost. But I don't see any reason to accept your intuition on that subject.

Frankly0,
I wonder if you have never been poor a day in your life, even as a student, because you can't seem to read their actions. It's a mystery to you.
The reason that the most needy back Clinton steadily is that the most needy are risk adverse;they can't afford to take chances cause they have so little and need so much

Clinton represents the Democratic establishment and the connector to a good past - the presidency of Bill Clinton. Needy voters like that reassurance. Two conclusions come from this. One, Hillary's supporters are loyal to the Democratic Party as a Party because of what it does for them, if the convention chooses Obama as the Party Leader they will follow him because that is what you do when you are loyal. Two, McCain has no chance with Hillary's voters because he is a republican and believes in the republican legacy. He will stress this as he tries to 'prove' to the GOP base that he is a true conservative. Hawkishness is not going to move the Hillary voter, especially in the economy we are about to face in the next 12 months.

So Obama's ability to reach out new groups, especially independent men becomes a huge asset and the makings of a true realinement election. Yglesias is right on the mark.

So, frankly0, because Obama does well only among the latte-sippers, and because he won the white vote in CA 49% to 44%, that means the majority of white voters, or more than 25% of California's population, are latte-sipping elites?

Energy doesn't win elections--or sincerity, or feelings, or wanting it really, really bad. Votes win elections.

Obama will never get the nomination if he can't break through to traditional Democratic constituencies, which he hasn't so far.

What your information doesn't do, of course, is provide evidence contrary to my original assertion, that Obama has yet to win the white vote in a state outside of Illinois.

In California, Obama won 50.00% of the White Vote, Hillary won 43.5% of the White Vote, and Edwards won 6.00% of the White vote in the Democratic Primary.

I'm using the same definition of "winning the white vote" for a state such as California, that you must be using in your admission that he won the White vote in Illinois.

Answer this question: Who won the White vote in Illinois, and who won the White vote in California?

perplexed,

Oh, and you are overlooking something obvious in Missouri. In the general election, the potential voter pool expands, and you don't know how many voters Obama and Clinton would draw respectively from the people who did not vote in the Democratic primary.

Obama isn't comforting the afflicted, or even afflicting the comfortable.

Is Hillary doing these things? I was under the impression they were both running for President.

What does it say about the man's message of hope that the large majority of those who might be in the greatest need of hope simply refuse to vote for him, and vote for Hillary instead?

Not a damn thing. Obama, Clinton, and Edwards are strong candidates. People make up their minds about them out of a mix of loyalty, emotional connection, rational consideration, and god knows what else. What people tend not to do is look at one person, "simply refuse" to vote for him, and go vote for someone else as an expression of that rejection.

The idea that certain demographic groups are in some way resolutely opposed to Obama because he doesn't get over 50% of their vote in a hotly contested primary is the sheerest nonsense.

Whole lotta latte out there, blym -- this explains those starbuckses on every corner!

--

Perplexed, I don't want to get into too many discussions, but you're raising smart points -- I'd just want to be careful about applying the results of a primary to a general election: people are making a different choice. (And I wish Edwards had been a more successful candidate.)

In other words, you seem to be asserting that if states like Idaho had been primary states instead of caucus states, Obama would have lost.

No, I don't "seem" to be "asserting that" because I'm not asserting that. I do think it's overwhelmingly likely Clinton would have done better had those states been primaries. I certainly don't claim she would have won any of them.

Obama has cleverly leveraged his money advantage by building a formidable organization staffed by zealous supporters. That kind of organizational excellence is a huge advantage in the more exclusionary world of caucuses. It's also the case that the more limited hours of caucuses disadvantage candidates who rely on downscale voters for support (such voters have less control over their work schedules). The caucus format favors Obama's candidacy. That's hardly controversial. Ask yourself, if the DNC allows a revote in Florida or Michigan, which type of contest the two campaigns will be clamoring for. It's unlikely Hillary would agree to a caucus, or Obama a primary.

John Petty,

What I meant by energy is turnout. As you know the democrats have been turning out more so than the republicans that demonstrates that the dems want to win the White House.

So Missouri has an open primary. According to the exit poll I found, among Missouri independents Obama beat Clinton 59-31, and among Republicans he beat her 71-21.

So I think that is a pretty good indication of who would do better once the voter pool expanded in the general election.

Hawkishness is not going to move the Hillary voter,

So why, oh why, does she insist on positioning herself as a hawk? If Hillary had Obama's record on the War, she'd already be the nominee. She's continually over-compensating with regard to the military and that's very troubling.

Energy doesn't win elections--or sincerity, or feelings, or wanting it really, really bad. Votes win elections.

Obama will never get the nomination if he can't break through to traditional Democratic constituencies, which he hasn't so far.

This is maybe the most bassackward thing I've ever read. Obama has more delegates for the nomination, he brings huge numbers of voters to the polls, persuades vast new constituencies to vote in the democratic primary, and his popularity is rapidly expanding. So, of course, he's doomed.

Alright... There are two major points that need to be added here.

1) Obama won the independent vote in MO by 37 points over Hillary.

2) Whether or not there is difference in demographics, I think many can agree that there is a real enthusiasm gap between the candidates. While there are many enthusiastic Clinton supporters, there's a reason that Obama's following has been deemed cultish. The risk of demoralizing and/or disenfranchising these individuals is far greater if Hillary wins the nomination over Barack.

Put simply, if you want to win so much that you will fight, then give the electorate a candidate that their willing to fight for.

Er, not to point out the obvious or anything, but "the African-American community" represents a pretty sizeable proportion of the poor and disadvantaged. Many of them are the definition of what constitutes "the afflicted". Their ethnic identification with Obama should not lead us to discount them wholesale and conclude that Obama is merely the candidate of privileged elites. Since when are the afflictions of poor whites more worthy of consideration than those of poor blacks?

Also, please for the love of FDR can we get rid of "latte liberals" or "chardonnay sippers" and all associated constructs.

perplexed,

OK, but unless you are asserting the caucus advantage is so much that Obama would otherwise have lost all his predominantly white caucus states, then it doesn't seem particularly important to me that so far Obama has otherwise only won the "white vote" in Illinois and California. In other words, apparently you're just asserting that maybe Obama would not have won the "white vote" in those caucus states quite as much if they had been primary states, but I am not sure what you think that proves.

Obama isn't comforting the afflicted, or even afflicting the comfortable. He's comforting the comfortable.
Bingo.
Posted by Perplexed

Did it strike you that the above is pure nonsense?
Who do you think this impresses. It's like something from The Corner or LGF.

And if your wondering why I think Obama will do better against McCain you can start here:
Clinton vs McCain

Obama vs McCain

In California, Obama won 50.00% of the White Vote, Hillary won 43.5% of the White Vote, and Edwards won 6.00% of the White vote in the Democratic Primary.

Gregor: I've seen numerous citations on the web claiming Clinton eked out a win (a plurality, that is) among Caucasian voters in California. You're sure you're not referring to (flawed) exit polls? It doesn't matter in any event. Democrats shouldn't be spending time and money worrying about California in November, but I stand by my assertion absent evidence to the contrary.

By the way, I am always puzzled by the reasoning of people who note that McCain has relatively high appeal among independents, and then argue that means the Democrats should nominate the person who is doing best among core Democrats in the primaries (Clinton), rather than the person doing best among independents (Obama). Despite the Democrat's party ID advantage, there are far, far too many independents these days for Democrats to actually just give them up to McCain. Rather, they will need to do everything possible to minimize whatever extra votes he may get among independents.

And that is even before you get to the issue of trying not to give Republicans an additional reason to turnout in high numbers despite their ambivalence toward McCain.

Just a few more numbers:

Apparently independents make up about 35% of the electorate in Missouri, but made up a little less than 25% of primary voters (which makes sense: independents would be relatively less likely to vote in primaries). So that is a pretty large group of general election voters who didn't express a preference in the primaries, and yet getting at least a good share of them will be crucial in the general election.

With respect to just the Democrats, independents again made up a little under 1/4 of the voters, and they went overwhelmingly for Obama. I think it is reasonable to assume that if faced with a choice between Clinton and McCain, those Obama independents are likely to convert at a much lower rate to Clinton than Clinton Democrats would be likely to convert to Obama if forced to choose between Clinton and McCain.

Add that all up, and I think Obama looks like the much, much stronger candidate for Missouri in a general election against McCain, based on the information we got in the primaries.

Perplexed let's be a little careful. Obama and Clinton raised almost identical amounts in 2007. His "money advantage" emerged only in January 2008. So she had the same opportunity and resources that he did to build organization. (Going forward it might be different.)

(And re "money advantage" let's remember that Clinton does better among large contributors; Obama's advantage comes from little donors like me.)

Can you deny that there's a significant intensity gap at the volunteer level? And is that somehow unfair? Have you ever done union organizing, for example? You need a core of committed people to *organize* the damn thing, and get people to think of something that they thought was not possible as possible. People don't just do it on some sort of collective whim.

It's possible, getting back to our host's original post, that this is part of the explanation for the data I posted a link to. Obama supporters are *happy*. Maybe you think it's a false happiness, but like it or not, we're happy, and as a result we have happy, hopeful conversations. Hope is great. It's infectious. Clinton supporters are defensive, and the most typical argument I hear from them -- that we need a really mean, tough candidate to take on the Republicans, is not a happy argument. You get, as with some folks above, this grim, divisive, and downright mean tone. Which group of folks would you be drawn to? So if political attitudes are formed and validated through conversation and interaction, that may be part of what's going on.

Since when are the afflictions of poor whites more worthy of consideration than those of poor blacks?

Who says they are more worthy? But if you're going to pretend to be offering up "hope", how can you possibly be doing a good job of it if your appeal towards those who need it can't even break across racial lines?

Unifier? Not so much. Post-racial? Not so much. Hope? Not so much of that either.

The latte sipping elites love the Obama treatment though -- and God knows how desperate they are to find something in their lives that might ease the tremendous burdens of their existences and make the next day seem worth living. The lattes, the BMWs, the McMansions -- surely there must be something grander, something deeper, something more meaningful and enriching!

Comforting the comfortable.