Isaac Chotiner takes a look at possible reasons why Asian American voters don't seem to like Barack Obama very much. Most of this comes down to Asian voters just not being particularly liberal along a couple of dimensions, but Isaac also points to some political clumsiness on Obama's part, from the "D-Punjab" incident to a tendency to sometimes forget Asians exists when off on a post-racial reverie.
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Obama's Asian Problem
08 Feb 2008 08:37 am
Comments (99)
At least if he goes up against McCain he'll be running against a guy who calls his captors in Vietnam "Gooks".
Obama has a few blind spots in this regard. People criticize the Clintons for trying to please everyone, but it isn't that hard to spread the love around and make everyone happy. For example, a good friend of mine is very liberal, but is voting Hillary largely because HRC has released a detailed plan regarding Americans with disabilities. Obama has not. She was on the fence between the candidates and HRC's plan tipped the scales.
Now, I'm sure Obama cares about Americans with disabilities. But the fact that HRC has gone out of her way to explain how she will help the disabled in a comprehensive ways has probably bought her a bunch of votes in an often over-looked yet rather sizeable group of mostly Democratic voters.
Obviously, Obama's lack of a disability policy isn't a perfect analogy for his Asian problem, since there's probably a lot more to the latte than Obama simply failing to give Asian Americans enough attention, but they are both examples of missed opportunities.
He has policy positions on disabilities. Check it out. Guess people just don't search this stuff.
http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/post/DisabilityPolicyBlog/CGMmH
I and my wife are first generation Asian American voters in our 40s and we both support Obama for this year's election. I don't know where this idea comes from that AAs don't support Obama. AAs are people just like everyone else. Maybe the older generation have issues with voting for a black man, but I think most of us in my generation and most in younger groups have no such hangups. Perhaps there is some validity in that AAs who have been here less than 10 years or so still have not adjusted to the idea that a black man can be president.
I don't know where this idea comes from that AAs don't support Obama.
It comes from the exit poll data in California and New York.
Well, if you go by the NY and CA polls, Whites, Women, Latinos, and almost every other demographic category except African Americans don't support Obama. What does that prove? I really hate this racial splicing navel gazing.
"Is this really that hard? A lot of Asians are really racist, especially the more recent immigrants"
Wow. That's just awful.
First, it's kind of racist to say that "a lot of Asians are really racist" - implying that it's because they're Asian that they're racist.
Second, you could say the exact same thing about any group. "A lot of (your racial/ethnic/religious/social group here) are really racist" - so how come Obama isn't hurt by the racism of, say, "a lot of white people"?
Third, there are probably explanations for how Obama or any other candidate failed to win over voters of any group that don't depend on those votes being bigots. What was his outreach like in the Japanese-American (or Chinese- or Filipino- or Vietnamese- or Korean-American, etc.) community? Did he get endorsements from prominent people in those communities? Did he put out ads in media targeting those voters? Did he make public appearances with prominent AAs? Did he identify actual policy issues that matter to those voters, and emphasize them?
There are dozens of reasons why Obama might not have done well among that demographic group that don't depend on calling those voters racists.
Savage - I will pass that on!
It comes from the exit poll data in California and New York..
What about Asians-Americans in Illinois?
Why is it that any group that doesn't vote for Obama is ipso facto not ready for a black candidate? Beyond that, why is there an assumption that in Asian-American communities--or in any voting sector--racial bias trumps sexism?
P.S.: I'm a card-carrying Asian-American
Well, finally we get some love...
I don't think it's just one explanation--it's several, but they all point toward why Clinton would fare better among Asians
*Aggregately* (of course there are exceptions, yadda yadda), Asians tend to be conformists, who prefer the "establishment"--there's a reason why there are more Asian-American doctors and engineers and fewer Asian-American actors and artists. If Asians weren't so discriminated against by racist Republicans, a lot of them might be Republicans
*Aggregately* (of course there are exceptions, yadda yadda) Asians don't care for blacks. They might be competing directly (think of the Korean groceries in New York), or just engaging in that sort of "at least they're lower than me on the social totem pole" mentality that minorities sometimes get into.
We have one of those mixed up Hawaiian families where one cousin (100% white) married a man who is half black, half Japanese. My father (himself half Japanese/half Chinese) viewed the whole thing with suspicion. He also views Obama with suspicion (too young, or so he says), and is more comfortable with "Mrs. Clinton". My mom (Japanese) on the other hand has disliked Hillary since 1992 (too uppity, doesn't know her place), and on the basis of Hillary hatred, would prefer Obama. That's sort of funny because you'd think she'd be in the right demo for Clinton (old, female, not black) but in fact she's *so* reactionary that she prefers Obama. Neither one is caucusing this month, though, so it's just an opinion thing.
The irony, of course, is that Obama grew up with so many more Asians than Clinton ever did--both in Hawaii and Indonesia. He has more Asian family members than Clinton has (ie I don't think she has any) While that sort of thing seems insultingly shallow to some people, I think it could make a difference to a lot of people who are looking for personal connections. Maybe with all that's going on, there just isn't time to emphasize it, or the campaign has been seeing the main issue as black v. white, but I think if you believe Obama is a "post-racial" candidate, he ought to signal that he can think beyond black and white. Obviously a man raised in Hawaii CAN do that--he'd have had no choice--but he just isn't showing it.
Yep, every individual and every group that doesn't love wonderful, stupendous Obama is proven "racist" by definition. And people wonder why Obama's non-black numbers are something like 25 points lower in secret-ballot elections than in non secret-ballot caucuses...
Here's something else to consider. It will be really, really difficult to turn off this "only racists oppose Obama" narrative if he wins the nomination, so it would be sure to become an important element of the general election campaign. This means that lots of voters will start wondering if they really want to spend the next four years constantly being denounced as "racists" whenever they disagree with something done by President Obama. There's one pretty easy way for them to prevent those four years of likely aggravation.
This is a really, really stupid political strategy by all the fanatic Obamabots, both on this blogsite and elsewhere.
I don't know about the Chinese and the Koreans, but the charge that the Asians are generally racists is quite appropriate for the East Indian community, the group of which I am an involuntary member.
Another example of clumsiness on the part of Obama is his refusal to sign a petition advocating for more Asians to be appointed as judges, etc. Many Asian groups were turned off by that and had sent emails asking people to not vote for him. I don't have the link but Jeff Chang discussed about this at the Huffington Post. Racialicious has some posts about this issue as far as last summer and fall.
One thing that is so deperessing about this election season is how our thinking about identiy is so shallow. It is very insulting to think that because one is a minority then that person will automatically vote for a person of color. Identity is very complex and should be seen as a subset of other factors. Different groups have different experiences and that needs to be taken account.
1. so-called "asians" tend to be risk averse
2. so-called "asians" tend to have greater respect for tradition and authority
3. so-called "asians" are more likely to go with the perceived establishment candidate
4. so-called "asians" who vote and identify as "asian" are older; the younger generations will select "other" and the "asians" who are likely Obama supporters will certainly self-identify as Americans first and hyphenated Americans second.
5. so-called "asians" are really are apolitical. Family, career, money, children, community, and then if you're lucky, nation and politics.
What's really stupid is the attempts by some people to shut off any discussion of whether racism plays a role in this.
I've had many people close to me tell me they don't feel comfortable voting for a black man. I know that must be the case for many people out there. It's not something we can ignore and to suggest that we should just shut up about it is insulting.
As far as the D-Punjab memo, I don't think it's title had an effect so much as the strong anti-outsourcing message within it that Obama continues to promote.
Matt: I get the impression that the Clinton Administration did a whole lot of outreach into/fundraising from the Chinese-American community specifically. Couldn't this be evidence of loyalty to Clinton as much as antipathy to Obama?
Just because it makes people uncomfortable to think that people vote based on identity or in packs, doesn't mean it isn't happening. Acknowledging isn't condoning; acknowledging is the first step in actually making changes.
And anyway, as it's been pointed out many times, since this election is so close with so few policy differences and two good candidates, people *are* forced to choose based on less "substantive" reasons. Get over it.
HIllary simply communicates "caring" more than Obama. Partly it is because of the gender stereotype that women are more caring than men. Partly it is because candidates from ethnic minorities imply their caring to people to like themselves by the facts of their bodies, and neglect to explicitly communicate their caring to others.
One of the reasons why John Edwards is such a terrific campaigner is that as a straight white man, he had to explicitly communicate his caring to people, who would assume that a white guy would not care about someone like themselves. Edwards worked hard at this -- that was the message of frequent use of specific examples of people he met, his parents.
If I were the Obama people, I would start testing and polling and finding out as much I could about whether people think that "Obama cares about people like me."
It is interesting that the two bases of his support == African Americans and the Intelligentsia -- need the least explicit statements of empathy from Obama. African Americans for the reasons of shared ethnicity and the Intellegentsia, who assumes that everybody cares about them, (thus blogging).
My guess is that Hillary survives because she has communicates her empathy, especially to working class women, who need to hear that a candidate cares about people like them.
The Clintons have a lot more connections with the Asian-American community going back to 1992. Many Chinese immigrants fondly remember Clinton while still in China and continue to like him in America. This isn't about dislike of Obama so much as love for the Clintons. Not so ironically then, some of the most infamous campaign violations have involved Asian American businessmen.
Remember that the 1992 LA riots were due in part to animosity between the Korean and Black communities. So it's not too farfetched that some Asian groups would be skeptical of Obama
*Aggregately* (of course there are exceptions, yadda yadda) Asians don't care for blacks. They might be competing directly (think of the Korean groceries in New York),
How about the Korean groceries in LA that got looted during the Rodney King riots. I'd call that real tension.
Also, the end of affirmative action in UC admissions dropped the number of black admittees but left whites unchanged. Asian students surged. Affirmative action is a subject where the immediate interests of asians and blacks are in direct conflict. If Obama comes out in favor of ending racial preferences with class-based preerences he might have a chance with asians, but if not, not. Some whites put up with AA out of a sense of group responsibility or guilt, but there's no historic justification for expecting that to work on asians.
I'm Asian American and I definitely know plenty of people in my cultural community that have negative feelings towards blacks because of Affirmative Action, which is proven to disadvantage Asians and favor blacks compared to color-blind admissions/hirings. Also, as the "model minority," Asians frequently can't understand why blacks cannot get along with whites and achieve as much as Asian-Americans, who are a much smaller segment of the population, and often subscribe this to blacks being "lazy."
And many Asians are taught to respect experience and competence over "change." Hillary's mastery of minute details are seen as competence while Obama's not mentioning details in his speeches is perceived as a weakness because many people don't bother looking up his policies online. Obama definitely would greatly benefit from playing up his multi-cultural family background in Hawaii (which I personally wouldn't even know about if I weren't an internet junkie), because there would definitely be more of a perception that he is not a black & white candidate but acknowledges that Asian-Americans, too, exist, which most political pundits do not!
I say wait and see what happens in WA. Seattle has a large AA population, and Obama tends to do well in caucus states. This whole thing may blow over when Saturday's results are in.
What do I know? I'm pretty bored by the fact that someone who isn't making race an issue seems to get shouted down in the election by a competitor and a press who ARE determined to make it an issue.
Another example of clumsiness on the part of Obama is his refusal to sign a petition advocating for more Asians to be appointed as judges, etc.
You mean the 80-20 Initiative. Obama did sign in the end, but the organization refused to withdraw their endorsement of Clinton in California. The whole organization is kind of bizarre; I've been on the receiving end of the spam they send out.
I'm not sure how many people actually cared about this, though it was the reason my friend's mother finally gave for not voting for Obama. (Her earlier reason was that Obama, being black, would "help black people too much.")
Look, I'm not saying that all Asians are racist, or would refuse to vote for a Black person. But I think it's pretty undeniable that Asians are going to be, on average, less willing to vote for a Black man than white Democrats. This is particularly true of older Asians. Presumably as Asians get younger, better educated, and more assimilated, this goes down considerably, but there is by all accounts a lot of anti-Black racism among Asians, and I don't see why this should be an illegitimate subject of discussion.
And, look, nobody is saying, pace RKU, that Obama only loses votes due to racism. But, really, let's look at the demographic groups that support Clinton (ignoring, for the moment, the gender divide) -
1) Poorer and less well-educated white people
2) Older white people
3) Latinos
4) Asians
Is it really so far-fetched to say that race is playing a role here?
This particular blog post has resonance with me since my father is from Calcutta (or Kolkata, I'm not even sure of the right spelling anymore). First, I want to indicated that I am an Obama supporter, however my father is a Clinton supporter. I bring this up because I suspect if you look deeper into the polling data, you will find the same sort of divide based on age as in the rest of the Democratic electorate.
But beyond that, from my own personal experience I tend to think the answer lies with a variation of what "JMS" pointed out. In a certain entreprenurial sense, Asian-Americans have taken incredible amount of risk. To uproot from one's homeland and seek financial (and personal) enrichment elsewhere takes a certain level of boldness. But in general, from my own personal experience, Indians (and I assume other Asian ethnic groups) are convervative in temprement. I remember when I graduated college, the advice I recieved was almost exclusively related to properly investing in my 401k and Roth IRA. While I appreciate that this is sound financial advice, I was hoping for some sort of advice along the lines of "follow your heart", "your young, take a chance to discover yourself". The latter sort of advice is at least tangentially related to Barak Obama's message; America can be more then the sum of its bickering parts. And yet the nuts and bolts advice I recieved from my family seems in line with Hilary Clinton's message. Again as pointed out earlier, Asians tend to be doctors and engineers; in other words financially safe professions. This temperment I think best explains this divide.
I would also state that, while previous posts have been much too crude in the matter, there is a certain level of racism, or at least ethnic tension between Asian and Blacks (Anyone who has seen "Do the Right Thing"?...or a telling relationship betweent two characters in the early episodes of "Lost" will notice this). Anecdotaly, I have seen some this myself, a certain level of tension. For example, Asians are hard working (stereotypically) where Blacks are seen as "lazy". Its something that has always been disconcerting to say the least. Anyway my two cents.
Oh and btw, count me as one of those Democrats who supports Obama, but will be happy to vote for Hilary Clinto in the fall.
What's ironic, if all the comments about Asians doubting black work ethics are to be taken at face value, is that Barack Obama so destroys those stereotypes for African Americans. He is not a typical "black candidate" in the mode of Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton. In fact, his blackness is a product of being the son of a well-educated East African immigrant. His story is actually closer to that of Asian Americans than of Latinos or whites. Yet many Asian Americans still view him through the prism of the LA Riots as if he were some dude in South Central. Whites - with some exceptions in decidedly racist areas - have made that connection.
All of this convinces me that anti-black racism is not at work here. It's more about support for the Clintons than opposition to Obama. And I bet it's more about California than about Asian Americans.
Phone-banking for Obama in San Fran and canvassing all over the city, I can say that, anecdotally, I got the most visceral and racist responses from Asians, in general. I got called a "white devil" in Cantonese and Obama was dismissed as a "black devil" a couple times. A friend got a door slammed in his face when the name "Barack Obama" was used with the same "black devil" curse thrown out there. Etc.
While I did get some racial attitudes from other groups, most were along the lines of "is the country ready for a black man?" (mostly from poorer voters) and "Did you know his middle name is Hussein?! Don't you find it weird he just appeared 5 years after 9/11?!?!" (mostly from upper-middle, professional white women)
Just thought I'd report my experiences.
I also never met the Obama/Latino backlash. At least from my voter contact, it seemed less like a racial thing, and more like a low-info name ID thing. latins were basically like (when I talked to them), "yeah, dude's alright, but I trust Hillary more"
FWIW
As a follow-up, is there a reason why sentences beginning with "Asians tend to" are appropriate and anything more than pure stereotyping? Could you imagine someone replacing "Asian" in that line with blacks, latinos, or women? People's heads would explode.
Nobody disputes that "some" Asians are X, and that "other" Asians are Y, and Z, etc. But since when does that mean anything? Some black people are smart; some aren't. Some latinos are black; some are lighter skinned. Some women are tall; some are short. The distinctions are absolutely meaningless, especially when used to say something about the common characteristic for the group in question. It's unanimously decried when pertaining to the above-mentioned groups, but when it comes to Asian-Americans, well, it's all okay because, after all, all stereotypes have some truth to them--or something like that.
Beyond that, the linked article points out that the amporphous group of "Asians" encompasses immigrants whose only commonality is that they are not black or latino, and that they are from the Asian continent (as is, by the way, more than 1/2 of the world's population). Furthermore, the waves of immigrants from the different countries is profound, with East Asians having immigrated to the U.S. since the 19th century, and those from Southeast Asia having only begun to do so since the 1960's.
Ultimately, however, the point is that, in a primary campaign, where the only choice is between a male African-American and a white women, the idea that choosing one over the other is provoked by some racial or sexist animus is a completely vapid, ignorant, and--based on the data used to support such memes--baseless inquiry.
As a Korean-American, I have to agree that a lot of first generation Korean-Americans are kinda racist, particularly against African-Americans.
My mom, for example, has unfortunately said disparaging things about African-Americans in general. On the other hand, the few African-Americans she has worked with, she absolutely adores - she paid for a SAT class for one of her African-american employees, and has invited a few of her other African-American employees to our house for Thanksgiving.
So maybe its a matter of the Asian-American community "getting to know" Barack Obama. I wonder if he did much better in the caucus states among Asian-Americans than he did in the big states.
I sometimes wonder whether some of the Obamabots on this blogsite are actually satirists pulling our legs...
For example, "John" above detects "racism" in the fact that Obama's numbers are pretty terrible among Latinos, Asians, and most whites (excluding the very youthful or rich ones).
Those Mittbots who used to hang around here should have used this argument. They could have pointed out that since their hero Romney had something like 90% support among Mormons but much lower numbers among everyone else that proved his main obstacle was fanatic anti-Mormon bigotry among all the non-Mormons in America...which actually has more plausibility given the national polling data.
John 10:19
That demographic cluster can also be explained on policy grounds. The inverse, the Obama voter is black or a rich white - the folks who aren't directly harmed by AA and other parts of the "traditional civil rights movement" agenda. They either are willing to take it on faith that Obama is really "a candidate for all Americans" rather than "Al Sharpton with a better suit." (Or wouldn't mind if the latter wre the case.) But the folks for whom this question directly affects their personal well being are gonna need proof that he's something new.
Obama may have had a lot of Asian relatives in Hawaii, but he moved to Chicago, consciously chose an "african american identity" including joining a "black liberation theology" church, and has spent his political apprenticeship in Chicago where the racial politics is mostly black vs. white, so that shouldn't count for much.
John and RKU,
You guys are talking past each other. I mean it is simplistic to say that racism explains all of Obama's problems while disregarding other factors, and it is the same when denying that racism is a factor. It is little bit of both.
Race is absolutely playing a role here. I'm white, so this has nothing to do with Obama's support among Asian Americans, but all four of my grandparents have voted a straight Democratic ticket their entire lives, and are threatening to vote Republican for president if Obama wins the nomination.
Anectodal: an ex-girlfriend, Chinese-American, is going to vote for Clinton in Virginia on Tuesday.
She thinks Obama is, in her words, "too pro-Black," "pro-Jena 6," etc... and will only look out for black people.
I tried to explain how crazy - and unfair based on the facts - that was, but she is rather adamant, nonetheless.
I think a lot of peopkle are WAY too eager to discount racism on the part of the Asian community. I'm sorry, but anyone who thinks this isn't a very REAL reason for the deficit is probably willfully burying their heads in the sand about this. SoCalJustice has a pretty good representation as to how racism manifests in the asian community.
I bet you think the racism if Irish Bostonians had NOTHING to do with Obama's poor MA showing vs his CT showing either. OR that the fact that many Central/south American nations make this one look like a racial Utopia has NOTHING to do with Hillary's ability to run up the score there.
You guys are talking past each other. I mean it is simplistic to say that racism explains all of Obama's problems while disregarding other factors, and it is the same when denying that racism is a factor. It is little bit of both.
When did I say that racism explains all of Obama's problems? I'm saying that racism is playing a role, and that the groups Obama has problems with are the same ones where you'd most expect racism to be an issue.
Also, RKU, of course Mitt lost because he was Mormon. There wouldn't have been a Huckabee if Mitt was a Presbyterian or a Methodist, and Mitt would be the presumptive nominee right now. It's not anti-Mormon bigotry generally, though, but anti-Mormon bigotry among Evangelicals, that killed Romney.
Perhaps I tend to generally assume that demographics are destiny - certainly my demographic status as a well-educated, young white male means that I'm not bucking any stereotypes by supporting Obama. But demographics are really important.
Ralph Phelan - I don't think we really disagree with each other, you're just saying the inverse of what I'm saying. Surely the fear that Obama is "Al Sharpton with a better suit" is, er, a manifestation of negative views of black people? Obviously there are real tensions between Blacks and Asians that contribute to this, and it's not entirely some kind of gratuitous hatred, but I don't think we're really saying different things here. Groups that are inclined to be suspicious of blacks and black politicians tend, not too surprisingly, not to vote for Obama.
"pro-Jena 6," etc... and will only look out for black people.
I tried to explain how crazy - and unfair based on the facts - that was, but she is rather adamant, nonetheless.
Go find the Christian Science Monitor in-depth article on the Jena mess, and you'll see that she has a point. It wasn't as one-sided as Obama makes it sound in his speeches. That might be due to ignorance on Obama's part rather than pandering, but that doesn't help much - prejudice often takes the form of assymetrically applied skepticism resulting in systematic patterns of ignorance.
Does Obama have an active prejudice in favor of the "african american" community he chose to make his home? That's a fair question, and deserves a serious answer.
Groups that are inclined to be suspicious of blacks and black politicians tend, not too surprisingly, not to vote for Obama.
If one is disgusted with the NAACP and related groups for reasons of policy and corruption, then one can be suspicious of black politicians for reasons other than simple racism.
The affirmative action question is at the heart of it. Frex, I recall some study that indicated that if there wasn't some level of covert quota imposition at work in the UC system admissions office, 30-40% of Berkeley and UCLA incoming classes would be Asian American, when in fact it is less than 20%.
Of course, that isn't the "diversity" that the professional race grievance industry means we should have by way of affirmative action, and Asian-Americans know this. So when a candidate like Obama comes around whose entire career has been in that industry (whatever he promises now), they are naturally skeptical that it portends well for their share of the spoils.
For those who are so offended about "stereotyping", we're not looking at what any one individual is doing. Obviously some Asians voted for Obama (I intend to vote for him in Pennsylvania if the race gets here). I would be offended if someone, looking at me and seeing an Asian woman, decided I must be for Clinton. That's stereotyping and that's unfair and incorrect. If you looked at the data in one state and said "most Asians voted for Clinton in state X because of X, so they will probably vote for her in state Y because of X", that's just logical, and probably right.
Looking at a whole group of people and correctly explaining why they do something, even if you consider that thing to be "negative", isn't what I consider to be stereotyping. In fact, sometimes it's the only way to start to address that "negative" behavior, whatever it is. The truth is that most stereotyping (positive or negative) starts with truth--it gets used as a bludgeon when you A) assume that any given individual will do the same thing as the larger group or B) assume that the group cannot and will not change over time and outgrow their initial "stereotype".
Some people just get really touchy about this because they assume that everyone is motivated by individuality and makes decisions based only on what they believe. That's manifestly not true. Lots of people make decisions based on what their friends and family think, what their community thinks, what their church thinks, etc. etc. You may think it's wrong, but it's not like it's not a significant factor in how people make decisions.
I tend to agree with Jayhawk Max. I'm not Asian, but I worked in Asia for over a decade and can tell you that MANY Asians I came across were ridiculously racist - particularly Chinese and Koreans when it came to looking down at the "darker Asians" like Malays, Filipinos, and Indonesians. This absolutely has a carry over to blacks. Throw in the stereotypical affirmative action view vs. the stereotypical "hardworking Asian" dynamic and you have an issue. One positive thing I noticed though, was that these crappy attitudes seemed to become less an issue for the younger, better educated people I was around (except for Chinese Singaporeans - the most racist bastards I know). I'd be curious to know whether younger Asians in the US as a whole showed Obama greater support than their elder counterparts.
I wouldn't doubt that racism plays a part in some of these numbers, but it is often overlooked, at least here, that millions of Democrats love Hillary Clinton .
There seems to be this need to find some complex explaination of why certain voters support her. The percentage of votes she is getting from most demographics are similar to what she's polled at for a year, albeit down. Obama, on the other hand, has gone from splitting the black vote, to taking almost all of it.
Aaron,
It's simply a fact that there is a ton of anti-Black racism among Asian Americans. I'm of South Asian descent, so I can say that. If I had a dollar for every Asian American girl I know whose parents would hit the roof if she tried to date/marry a black man, I would be a rich man. It's worth remembering that the reason Bob Jones University had their notorious policy against interracial dating was in response to a request by some racist Chinese parents. As Joko said, Chinese Singaporeans are infamous for their not even particularly concealed racism- remember the Prime Minister of Singapore saying that the root of America's problems were that we expect Black people to perform at the same intelligence level as everyone else, whereas the SIngaporeans know that's impossible.
For Indian Americans, these be the reasons:-
1. D-Punjab memo.
2. Hillary has taken time off her campaign, including contributing an article in a leading Indian American magazine on Indo-US ties.
3. Hillary is seen as more amenable to be brought round to the Indo-US nuclear deal which might not get passed during the current admin. Although both voted against it.
4. Very very strong ties to the Patel and Singh community hoteliers.
Although if you track campaign contributions, the younger members of the community(tracked as students) are overwhelmingly rooting for Obama. Foreign nationals(read students) who can't contribute buy the Audacity of Hope because part of it goes to his campaign(or so I am told).
Bottomline, people in the community who get to vote and/or contribute substantially have been courted for a long time by the former president. He was the first to celebrate Diwali in the White House(among other things) and attended a few of the community's weddings and has done seminal pro bono work in South Asia(most notably post tsunami).
There seems to be this need to find some complex explanation of why certain voters support her.
Not complex at all. Women who support Hillary mostly do it out of a sense of female pride and a shared woman's perspective. The type of man who supports Hillary tends to be the emasculated, deferential to their wife / all women types. They know who wears the pants.
KC - just a point of note about "D-Punjab"...this DID NOT originate with the Obama campaign. You need to stop spreading this b.s.. Here's a link explaining where it came from (Hillary herself):
http://time-blog.com/real_clear_politics/2007/06/sen_clinton_dpunjab.html
Salient quote: The Punjab reference came from a joke Clinton made herself at a fundraiser hosted by an Indian doctor when she said "I can certainly run for the Senate seat in Punjab and win easily, after being introduced by Singh as the Senator not only from New York but also Punjab."
I have to at least allow myself a bit of a chuckle to note that Indian's are making light of alleged racism when your country still has an incredibly defined caste system. Certainly a bit of irony there, huh?
Yeah, the presumption here is that everyone ought to be voting for Obama, so the question is what's wrong with people that don't vote for him?
Given the history of inter-ethnic distrust between Blacks and Asians and Blacks and Latinos, one would hope that Obama has a strategy to overcome these obstacles to his candidacy. After all, it is his responsibility to attract the voters, not the voters' duty to support him. Obama clearly has a strategy to overcome the resistance of whites to vote for him -- his presentation of himself is very careful.
To pound my point: I think that there is an empathy gap.
And BTW, when Obama supporters say that they cannot vote for Clinton and will vote for McCain or stay home, the message that they send that they don't take seriously the effects of a McCain presidency on a whole host of people who will be adversely affected -- from troops in Iraq, to the uninsured, to the poor etc. What others hear is "they don't really care about people like me. They care more about their intra-party fights and squabbles."
Larry 11:38 is emblematic of the fact that it's hard to tell who in this comment thread is a troll and who is simply a radical Obama supporter.
Tom in Ma: Good point about Obama supporters letting a Republican win if Hillary gets the nomination - and I'm a HUGE Obama supporter. I personally think the Clinton's are dishonest, too calculating by half, Machiavellian jerks. However, as much as it pains me to admit sometimes, she/they are much more preferable than continuing down the Republican rail. Particularly if McCain names Huckabee or another strict Christionist as his VP. Scary stuff.
Regarding your point though about Obama somehow lacking "empathy" to Asians, c'mon, dude. I agree that as the candidate it's his responsibility to attract/pander to the various constituencys to a certain extent, but to say that he's somehow not empathetic towards Asians in the US is just plain wrongheaded and bizarre.
The type of man who supports Hillary tends to be the emasculated, deferential to their wife / all women types. They know who wears the pants.
That's not true. I still plan on voting for Obama :)
In response to Joko, anecdotally, I'll say that my friends and I (American-born Chinese Americans in our twenties and attending graduate/professional school) are Obama supporters. However, my equally well educated, Chinese born parents are for Hillary. The age divide is not very different between whites and Asians.
However, it's also true that every Asian American I know opposes Affirmative Action, and it's not a stretch to project that Obama's self-identifying with the struggles of blacks despite his own background against type, may cause some Asian Americans to fear that he would support agendas favoring blacks at the expense of Asian Americans.
With all the talk of racism, I see little to none about the importance of business. At least in the SF Bay Area, Asian-Americans are business interests preclude almost anything else. In fact, one would wonder why they don't lean more Republican. HRC is clearly the more corporate-friendly candidate. That is how I explain her strong Asian support.
I have to at least allow myself a bit of a chuckle to note that Indian's are making light of alleged racism when your country still has an incredibly defined caste system. Certainly a bit of irony there, huh?
Calm down joko. I am talking about perception. Allow yourself what you will.
Who is alleging racism, by the way? Certainly not the enlightened Atlantic blogger. Not from what he has written , at least.
nvs...i bet you sing a mean soprano or even alto.
If one is disgusted with the NAACP and related groups for reasons of policy and corruption, then one can be suspicious of black politicians for reasons other than simple racism.
As a black person disgusted with the NRA and related groups, I'm suspicious of all white politicians and in favor of black ones. It's not simple racism.
i am asian (burmese to be exact), my family is asian, i've been all over asia and i have to say that many asians are RIDICULOUSLY racist. i also want to say that it's race and not obama's campaigning that is preventing them from voting for him. obama has mentioned asians in his stump speech numerous times and the D-Punjab thing would only resonate with darker indian and pakistani asians. and other asians hate them just as much as black people!
I'm chill, man. Just pointing out the bit of irony and hypocrisy for Indian's to be so up in arms about a comment that originated at an Indian fundraiser for Hillary.
Ralph Phelan nails it:
"Affirmative action is a subject where the immediate interests of asians and blacks are in direct conflict. If Obama comes out in favor of ending racial preferences with class-based preerences he might have a chance with asians, but if not, not. Some whites put up with AA out of a sense of group responsibility or guilt, but there's no historic justification for expecting that to work on asians."
Occam's Razor.
It should not be controversial to state that racism is completely pervasive in Japan and China (and presumably other East Asian countries). That's just a fact.
I would be very curious to see a breakdown of the Asian vote by generation. My guess is that Obama probably does fairly well with 2nd generation and later Asian immigrants. Another way to get at this would be to look at Asian voting outside of CA (which is rather heavier on fresh off the boat Asians than the rest of the US). Nobody seems to have data on that. I suspect this is largely a localized phenomenon that means nothing beyond the large Asian population centers in California.
heavier on fresh off the boat Asians
Shouldn't that be 'fresh off the junk' Asians?
"Surely the fear that Obama is "Al Sharpton with a better suit" is, er, a manifestation of negative views of black people?"
It doesn't mean that I assume any black person I meet is a racial spoils monger until proven otherwise. Most aren't. It does make me worry that any black politican may be a racial spoils monger until proven otherwise. An awful lot of them are.
Similarly, I worry that any Rhode Island politican is in the pay of the Mafia, because so many are.
To the extent that minorities see themselves in competition with each other for economic success/social status, one can expect that black, Hispanic, or Asian voters will tend to support a member of their own group first, and a white candidate over a candidate from one of the 'other' two groups.
As long as we live in a racist society (a society in which being white is an advantage), I expect this sort of voting pattern to exist. To accuse various minority groups of 'racism' is pointless: members of these groups simply want to succeed, and may choose to prioritize their own success over those of other minority groups. Ought they not to do so in order to prove that they aren't racist to ignorant white blog commenters?
Nice rationalization, "anonymous". Wow, are you an incredible deluded and misguided moron.
Part of the Asian-American (a ridiculously broad term) community's apparent hesitation to vote for BO might not just be latent racism, but fear/acknowledgment of racism against blacks in general in the US. Most AA voters are invested in the Dems winning, and don't believe BO can win a general election in the US.
And for the record I want to echo some of the observations here: I'm an AA and most people I know from over there are incredibly racist. But also, most people my age voted for BO, but most of our folks voted for Clinton. My father wanted to vote for Biden!
If Obama really is something more than Sharpton with a better suit, he'll treat this the way Ron Paul treated his Stormfront supporters. Let's see what he does.
There needs to be a bigger breakdown of that data...
by age, by sex, and by region.
I've personally found that chinese and thais are the least racist east asians, with koreans being the most racist along with hick japanese. The indonesian chinese that I know most definitly has some wierd race related ideas, but has always treated me in a friendly, respectful, and fair way even though he knows I'm black.
I think some of the thinking in this thread is completely lazy. People are confusing racism with xenophobicism, which is a lot freakin' easier to handle--just make yourself known to the community. Many asians use racist language or attitudes for xenophobist sentiments, but it isn't the same thing as the real thing. People should not be thinking of racism as something done by KKK'ers, in terms of rejection or harm.
Singapore, and Hong Kong, might be the most "racist" place in Asia, but it's safe for dark skinned people to do normal things like go out with chinese friends of either sex, to conduct business, and do normal stuff. That's not particularly true of Korea, even though you hear few koreans spouting racist shit. That society is quite hostile to mixing...
Racism is a system, not a personal ideology, even though personal ideology makes up that system. It's like that chinese woman mentioned above who is quite okay with being both racist to people she doesn't know, and also being decent or better to people she does know.
What real racism that exists in East Asia was imported by the Japanese in the latter parts of the 19th century, and popularized through intelligentsia throughout east asia. This is not to say that east asian didn't have negative stereotypes of africans since time immemorial, but well, it was only a bit worse than stereotypes about europeans, arabs, and indo-persians. Social Darwinism was pretty popular in East Asia for awhile into the 20th century, though. Right now, Japan and Korea have real racist systems, utilizing minstrelsy and other devices as a direct means of social control. They do it because most of the East Asian Tigers run a fascism-lite mercantilist policy. China tries, but it's so diverse...
My boss is heavily involved in Chinese-American politics in Southern California, and he says the political leaders are all favoring Clinton because of the Clintons' record of policies and involvement beneficial to Asian-American interests.
Re: Obama's Hawaiian roots:
The local news in HI has all been up beat, local boy made good pieces. The Fox affiliate's sound bytes from the Punahou School Carnival were all positive regarding "Barry" back in the day.
The resident AfAms I've asked over the years say they haven't felt singled out by the locals. The story on Oahu, with all of the young, transient, enlisted personnel packed in, may be different.
I guess we'll find out what a sample of the island boys and girls really think in a couple of weeks.
Shah,
You're misguided on more counts than I can go into. Hong Kong certainly has been a cosmopolitan place forever. They, unlike the sheltered Chinese Singaporeans, are not known for their racism. Either are the Chinese in Indonesia, generally speaking. They've been persecuted and used as a scapegoat for many years - think back to the 1997 riots. I will agree with you about the Thai people though. I suspect their accepting nature stems from Buddhism. Really nice people.
My Chinese-American parents-in-law will vote Republican anyway, but have said how much they hate the Clintons. Among the Democrats, they prefer Obama, although my father-in-law was concerned that Obama would appoint too many unqualified blacks to his cabinet.
(tap tap) is this thing on? (tap tap)
In case people are still reading this, has anybody in this thread mentioned that not so long ago people were talking about how Obama, as an immigrant of (partial) African-Ancestry, he wouldn't be able to get the Black vote, but rather he'd do better amongst immigrants?
Perhaps actually all the negative anti-Obama campaigning has actually helped him win the African-American vote as a lot of the negative campaiging is itself racist (making Obama far more sympathetic as a "fellow victim of racism" rather than an immigrant who "transcends race") and it is racist as it is tending to emphasize Obama's connection with groups with a more radical agenda on certain racially related matters, which, while these agendas are not supported by many in the African-American community, do reflect on him as being supportive of the African-American community in a way in which prior to the negative campaigning, it was hard to know that he was.
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If we're stereotyping that all Asians are racists, shouldn't we also include the all Asians are self-hating stereotype as well? So maybe Asians aren't supporting Obama because of his Asian associations? Anyway, most of the Asian-Americans (well, pretty much all of them who are Democrats ... with Republicans it's a more mixed bag as to which Democrat they'd prefer) I know are supporting Obama over Clinton, but I think it's a generational thing.
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FWIW -- I always thought the "oh noes, Clinton gets money from some Chinese businessmen" controversy was pretty racist (as well as anti-Clinton): don't, e.g., the GOoPers get plenty of money from foreigners and/or businessmen?
People were talking about Obama "not being authentically black enough" because they didn't know anything about him yet. Obama took care of the "not black enough" thing twenty years ago by joining the Trinity United Church of Christ. It just took a while for the black electorate to get the word.
it is racist as it is tending to emphasize Obama's connection with groups with a more radical agenda on certain racially related matters
How is exposing true information about Obama's political associations and views "racist"?
GOoPers get plenty of money from foreigners and/or businessmen?
I've long ago given up expecting any politican to be graft free. In fact, the more noise they make about how honest they are, the more suspicious I get. I really didn't mind when Bill Clinton had Ron Brown flying around the world with a planeful of corporate executives strongarming other countries for better trade deals. Yeah, it kinda sucked that you had to pay to get on the plane, but still in the aggregate it did more good for the US than harm.
That said, I find certain kinds of graft far more troublesome than others, and among the worst is selling favors to hostile nations such as China and Iran. Of course Saudi graft is the biggest problem of all, and it's ubiquitous in both parties.
joko, I realize that Hong Kong doesn't really have the problems that Singapore does. I'm just saying that the broad brush disguises what place has genuine race problems and what places has the typical problems with race and ethnicity.
I don't think there's much question that Asians as a group would be far less likely to vote for a black candidate, for a number of reasons including simple racism.
Whoever said that Chinese are the least racist is almost certainly wrong. People don't get more racist than Mandarin Chinese, and that's the Asian view.
I think you can make a strong case against the Japanese, even without taking historical realities into account.
But this is stupid and pointless. We're reduced to comparing which Asian culture is the most racist? Doesn't anyone else find that this is an incredibly racist, or at least ethnocentrist, endeavor?
Rightly or wrongly racism is virulent among this cohort.
Quoth Larry:
The type of man who supports Hillary tends to be the emasculated, deferential to their wife / all women types. They know who wears the pants.
Um, no. They tend to be the ones who recognize that she's smart, capable and a damn sight better than the Shrub President Bush.
That, together with your "singing soprano" comment directed to nvs, leaves me in no doubt that you qualify as a troll. Make sure you get someone to read the polling booth instructions to you and remember to use your hands, not your feet, to pull the lever.
Having lived throughout Asia in the 80's and 90's, I was posed to post a flip and simple message: that Asians are, generally speaking, racists, classifying people from high to low class according to skin color, lightest to darkest. The caste system was never isolated to India, and it dies hard.
While this gross generalization remains generally true, based as it is in roles of farm workers in a feudal society and the effects of the sun on the skin of those workers, numerous participants herein have added incredible texture, context and nuance to that general rule. Mike's point about Obama's anti-outsourcing message, and the comments by Gregor and Hector come immediately to mind.
Still, to all those who say that the opposition to Obama is based on a "reluctance to change," or some similarly complicated psycho-sociological bullshit, I call, well, bullshit.
While there may be some immeasurably miniscule number of Chinese immigrants who associate talk of "change" with the horrors of the Cultural Revolution, the vast majority of chinese (or thai, korean, or indian) voters who choose Hillary over Barack will do so for the simple reason that she is white and he is not.
Want proof? Just ask any Asian Hillary supporter how they refer to African Americans in their native tongue in everyday conversation. In all likelihood, if they're honest, they'll tell you the term that translates roughly to "darkie" or "black devil" if not worse. They use not the officially sanctioned polite term, but instead their native version of the "n" word. Go ahead, ask 'em.
The good news is that most if not all of the asian immigrants this ignorant will never bother to obtain their citizenship, and will hopefully never get anywhere near a polling place, let alone a voting booth. Even so, by a 4-1 margin, those that do make it to the booth will vote for Hillary -- for no goddamn reason other than the fact that she's white. Welcome to 1860, and 1880, and 1900, and 1956, all over again.
There's a difference between saying "Asians are racist" and saying "statistically X number of Asians don't like blacks."
The first statement is general; the second specific. The first statement is not true. The second most definitely is true.
There's also a distinction between Asians and Asian-Americans.
Yes, some Asians are racists. Whether enough are to make support for Obama difficult is a matter of statistics.
That said, unless you have a statistical poll done where X Asians ADMIT to being racists, it's going to be hard to tell whether Asians are being racist or they just don't like Obama's policies for whatever reason.
So declaring that race is at the bottom of lack of support for Obama among Asians is clearly incorrect, absent evidence that is the case which excludes all other possible explanations.
As for Asian racial attitudes, I recall making the acquaintance of a Japanese guy in the joint. He sat by himself separate from the other Asians in the mess hall. I asked him why, he said the others were Vietnamese, and that as far as the Chinese and Japanese are concerned, Vietnamese were "the same as niggers." Anecdotal evidence from a criminal but there you are.
Not to mention the Hong Kong kung fu movies where the racial treatment of Japanese would be considered utterly unacceptable in an American film if directed at blacks.
In Japan, if you're from Korea, you carry an ID card even if you're third generation.
Some Asians don't like other Asians. Typical human behavior. Big surprise.
Amusingly, I hit on a Thai girl in one of my classes at the Community College of San Francisco. At one point, she emailed me and said she was a "racial person" (meaning "racist", but her English was only so good) and only interested in men of her ow
Is this really that hard? A lot of Asians are really racist, especially the more recent immigrants.
Posted by John | February 8, 2008 8:53 AM