I'd like a bit of what the Phoenix Suns are smoking if they're seriously contemplating this deal. I understand that there are some Marion-related chemistry issues, but he's six years younger than Shaq and already at this point in their respective careers Marion is more productive. Shaq's going to mesh with Phoenix's up-tempo offense? Who's going to replace Marion as a wing defender? It doesn't make any sense.
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Shaq-Marion?
06 Feb 2008 09:22 am
Comments (44)
And aren't the Suns legendarily luxury tax avoiders? This can't help on that front.
that is insane! He is breaking down at a rapid rate and can't run.
If the Suns don't get back Heats draft pick this year - unconditional - this is going to be one of the all time worst trades.
O'Neil's contract is going to CRIPPLE the Suns.
Wow.
If Shaq cannot perform in Miami, he won't be able to perform in Phoenix. It would be like Hakeem Olajuwon's last year in Toronto.
Phoenix would have been far better off to have gotten Gasol. And, btw, why isn't the Jerry West connection being mentioned in all the chat about what a steal that deal was?
Money-wise it actually is a savings for the Suns, assuming Banks is added to the mix. And ask G Hill how the Suns trainers have helped him to rejuvenate.
It IS a crazy sounding deal, but there is some logic behind it too.
I am absolutely speechless that the Suns would even consider this deal. Shaq is D-O-N-E, done. He can't lift his arms over his head! This trade makes no sense.
Money-wise it actually is a savings for the Suns, assuming Banks is added to the mix.
I don't know where you're getting your information but ESPN.com is saying that this deal would put them into luxury tax hell.
They're already over the LT. Marion is scheduled to make 17 next year and Banks 4.1. Shaq is at 20. So there is a savings. After next year, you're right, there's a problem.
If it was almost any other team, I'd say they might take the $10 million dollar hit next year... but the Suns? The first-round-pick-abandoning Suns?
Anyway from a basketball perspective, I just... I'm aghast.
Riley is an amazing GM. We won our championship -- something no other exansion team from our class or since has so much as sniffed (except that O'Neal Orlando team) and something only 5 teams have done since 1989, I think -- we're shedding the contract that was supposed to weigh us down for years, we get younger, acquire a 16-10 type guy, have the ability to have oodles of cap space this offseason (when, BTW, a great class of free agents are available), have a league-wide star to build around and a lottery-pick. Amazing.
And good for O'Neal, too. He may win another ring with Phoenix. He won't here. And I'll cherish seeing the Suns-Lakers playoff series, too.
Money-wise it actually is a savings for the Suns, assuming Banks is added to the mix.
Unless my numbers are wrong, the Suns would be paying an extra $16.5 million in 2009 to save $5 million in 2010.
This sounds like either wishful thinking from Camp Shaq or Steve Kerr losing his mind.
The question is whether you think Shaq is done or not. The Suns apparently don't think he's done. And they may be right. Or they may be blinded by the success of Grant Hill, thinking Shaq can undergo the same rebirth. I'm skeptical, but I'm not going to diss them for this. They were not going to win the championship with their previous lineup.
And they may be right.
Except they're not. It's just an unimaginable deal to me. Shaq to a running team? Unreal. It's hard to think of a worse player for the Suns. Cripes. Deal Marion for Noah, for gawd's sake, if you're insistent on getting rid of him.
Let's get back to the on-court angle - playing devil's advocate, won't it be near impossible to drive the lane against the Suns in the playoffs if Shaq gets healthy? He and Amare will be blocking shots all day long, and that's how he'll fit into their offense - by starting the break (he's an excellent passer) and allowing Stoudamire to run more with the break. If they'll have 3-on-1 or 3-on-2 breaks all game, who cares where Shaq is?
Scientific Shaq's biggest dropoff this year has been as a defender. As has been widely discussed he can't raise his arms to their full height above his head because of shoulder problems. He's not gonna block shit.
All this "if Shaq is healthy" talk is roughly equivalent to saying "if Steve Francis were Steve Nash." Shaq is done. Why not go out and get Rick Mahorn too?
There has not been a more inexplicable, indefensible trade in the last 15 years.
How can you guys be so confident that Shaq is done? I'm sure you all would have said the same about Grant Hill (as most commentators did) prior to this season.
If the trade actually happens, does Kerr immediately take Isiah's spot at the top of the "Worst GM in the NBA" list? Also, is there a worse trade he could make? (Maybe bundling Nash and Stat for Shaq.)
It just goes against what the Suns are as a team. Just fucking bizarre that they're considering it. If they wanted a big man who could also shoot the 3, that would be different.
? I'm sure you all would have said the same about Grant Hill (as most commentators did) prior to this season.
I sure as hell wouldn't pay $20 mil. for Hill, or even what he was getting in Orlando.
i don't have anything to add on the shaq-phoenix angle (i too think it would be foolish of phoenix), but this is a chance for me, as an old-timer, to note that amare can tatoo whatever he wants, Tony Dogs, but there's only one "black jesus," and that was earl monroe in college, before as a pro he became "earl the pearl."
Maybe Shaq's been dogging it. Say he has and he's in ok shape as far as injuries are concerned, but what can he still actually do. I have watched him and he is no longer a reliable post scorer. You used to be able to dump it int him and he'd score or get fouled more than half the time, but no more. And he can't jump so the rebounding is only going to be average, same with the blocks, and he can't run, so he is always going to be late down the court anytime the Phx. fast break stalls and they have to set up half court, or the opponant fast breaks Phx. I just don't see it. I'd trade Marion to Chicago for Noah and maybe Gordon or Smith, plus cap fodder.
On another note, the Memphis/Laker scam makes me want to puke. You trade your best player, a top 5-8 center no less for two very late first round round draft picks, a rookie point guard when you already have two good rookie point guards, a young foreigner, and cap space that you can't use because no free agent is going to want to come to Memphis. The only way it might makes sense is if Memphis is going to be sold, and then should one leauge favorite team be handed the championship becasue some owner is eager to get out? And if Memphis is not going to be sold, should one leauge favorite team be handed the championship becasue the owner is a moron? Last time I looked Memphis was in the West. Does it make sense that you create a dynasty to lose to in your effort to get to the finals? The Lakers (and Kobe and Phil Jackson) are the last team in the league that needs this kind of help. It just reinforces for me the fact that most BBall owners are idiots or else the game is fixed.
They were not going to win the championship with their previous lineup.
And we know this... how? Because Nash got a bloody nose and Amare got a cheap suspension?
If they needed someone to play post defense and allow Amare to play the 4 instead of the 5, they should have just kept Kurt Thomas.
That should have read "most bball owners are idiots and the game is fixed. My only hope is Bynum is out all year and next year Gasol and Bynum can't play together and Kobe beats up a hooker.
Does it make sense that you create a dynasty to lose to in your effort to get to the finals?
The can do spirit! Memphis is many, many years away from a championship. The bar against trading in-conference has always struck me as strange. And it sounds like everyone was trying to time the market--don't give up much, Memphis will always take less--and just lost. Unlike with the KG trade, I haven't heard of any on-the-table deals that were better.
I do agree that they should have kept Kurt. That's what confuses me the most about this. Since Sarver took over, the Suns have been doing everything to stay under the cap, getting rid of good players and draft picks. And now they go and pick up Shaq's huge contract? I don't get it.
Grant Hill got injured a lot -- there's an understatement -- but in between injuries he played at a normal level. Shaq is just plain breaking down, from top to bottom.
Isn't DJ Mbenga available?
It's about marketing, not basketball. Shaq is a gold mine.
We know this, Al, because the deed for the Suns hangs permanently in the AT&T center. Lest you forget, we came into the Sun's house last week playing the worst basketball we've played in ten years, missing our point guard, shot 34%, and still whipped the Suns.
When your title chances revolve around someone beating the Spurs before you lose to them again, it is not looking good.
That said, this trade is a disaster from Phoenix's perspective.
I wouldn't be so sure that a running team cannot prosper with Shaq in the middle. The Lakers in the 80s were the best running team in league history, and they did OK with the less-than-fleet Kareem at center. It is also possible that rumors of Shaq's demise are somewhat exaggerated. Wasn't too long ago that people were saying how sad it was that Brett Favre refused to accept reality and retire already...
Seriously, there have been a million Heat games on national TV this season. The guys like a cadaver. And a $20 million guy for a team that sells first round picks for cash!
Another factor to this is that Steve Nash isn't getting any younger. Trading for Shaq instead of locking up Marion with a new, huge contract puts the Suns in position to be waaaay under the cap when Nash and Shaq retire.
Mike
Trading for Shaq instead of locking up Marion with a new, huge contract puts the Suns in position to be waaaay under the cap when Nash and Shaq retire
Wouldn't it be easier and better to simply keep Marion and then let him become a free agent? Even if Marion takes the option year for 2008-09 (which actually isn't that likely), Shaq has two more guaranteed years, at a higher cost. This trade would hurt the Suns' future salary cap situation, not help it.
"I haven't heard of any on-the-table deals that were better."
This was a totla crap trade made way early in the trading season. If they cared about making the team better they could have made all kinds of better trades (Pheonix, Chicago, Atlanta...). This was just a salery dump by an unscrupulous owner (he bought the Grizz in vancouver promising to never move them then moved them the next year). If he cared anything about the NBA he never would have made the trade. Small market teams like memphis are at a big disadvantage comparedto large market teams like the Lakers. You trade with them sure, but you don't go out of your way to gold plate that advantage, not if you care about the game. It's like giving Bill Gates Google. From everything I've read, everyone connected to the NBA was disgusted by this trade. If the league cared about the game more than money they would have never let the trade go through.
Heisley would have loved to deal with Chicago, but they balked at luxury tax problems. Or so Heisley said. Can't make deals with people who don't want to do them.
Wow, it looks like this trade is really going to happen. The only thing I can say is that Shaq has always raved about Steve Nash as a player and maybe he can summon some of his former abilities.
But, probably not. Shaq is putting up Brendan Haywood numbers this year, literally. Even though Haywood is having a career year, would Phoenix trade Marion for him? And, as almost everyone else has said, Haywood will still be playing at the end of the season and Shaq probably can't do that.
Hard to imagine.
The way ESPN has reported this, by the way, has been very, very weird.
"Heisley would have loved to deal with Chicago, but they balked at luxury tax problems. Or so Heisley said."
The, "or so Heisly said," is the operative part of this quote. There was plenty of time to get a better basketball deal.
Dear lord, I hate ESPN.
"The seemingly improbable pairing of an aging Shaquille O'Neal and the run-and-gun Phoenix Suns is just a final "yes" from the Suns away from happening, according to NBA front-office sources."
Uh, just a "yes" away from one of the teams involved in the potential trade? What? By definition, then, theres no deal done. So why are you reporting as though this thing is for sure? The way ESPN has reported this from the beginning has been so weird. They're pumping it with abandon.
i don't get this because phx needs to get past the spurs, but this plays right into what the spurs have -- some size. that is, cisco, oberto, even horry could all spend some time on shaq, leaving aside duncan. the small speedy lineup is what the spurs have trouble with. why would phx starting playing more trad ball that's exactly what the spurs want? and how does this help phx get by dallas? suddenly, dampier has tremendous value. same with houston.
makes no sense to me. can marion really be that much of a locker room poison, despite all the winning? gms are just a mystery (i think there's generally little method to their madness, it's just madness (cf. knicks)).
They were not going to win the championship with their previous lineup.
That's nuts. They have the best record in the west, and came extremely close to beating the Spurs last year. We all know the Spurs don't win in even years, so the Suns have as good a chance as anyone. Until this.
I don't know if I have anything to add, except to say that if the Suns get Shaq, they'll be able to battle the Webber Warriors once the clock turns 1999 again.
Good lord, this is the dumbest trade I've ever heard of, not counting any made by the Grizzlies. Forget age or salary -- Marion is at least twice as valuable as Shaq right now. At this point in his career, Shaquille O'Neal is about an average center, maybe below average. Here's a quick list of starting centers who are clearly better than Shaq: Yao, Amare, Dwight Howard, Camby, Gasol when he plays the 5, Duncan whe he plays the 5, Al Jefferson (didn't realize he was a 5, but he's started almost every game there), Kaman, Bynum, Chandler, Jermaine O'Neal, Rasheed Wallac, Big Z, Okafor.
Other guys who also might be better than Shaq: Biedrins, Bogut, Dalembert, Brad Miller, Okur.
"Wouldn't it be easier and better to simply keep Marion and then let him become a free agent? Even if Marion takes the option year for 2008-09 (which actually isn't that likely), Shaq has two more guaranteed years, at a higher cost. This trade would hurt the Suns' future salary cap situation, not help it."
No, because Marion likely won't take the option year. So, the Suns will lose him for nothing and waste the last great year they might get from Nash. Trade for Shaq and you've got Nash, Amare and Shaq to battle in the West for the next two years and then you can blow it all up and rebuild around Amare.
Mike
Al is right, if the Suns wanted someone to play interior D they should have just kept Thomas. Who they got rid of just to save a few bucks, which is why this trade is so bizare, this is a team that has been sellign their 1st roudn picks to Portland every year to save $$ (and by the way one of those picks may be the next Ginobli startign next year, in the long run the Suns will wish they'd kept Fernandez).
I can only assume the Suns got rid of all their scouts to save money and haven't actually seen Shaq play lately.
No, because Marion likely won't take the option year. So, the Suns will lose him for nothing and waste the last great year they might get from Nash. Trade for Shaq and you've got Nash, Amare and Shaq to battle in the West for the next two years and then you can blow it all up and rebuild around Amare.
Marion is better than Shaq. If you want to blow it up, you let him walk away. There's no good reason to trade for Shaq there.
Comments closed February 20, 2008.
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Heads in the Sand
I don't know Matt. I've been a Suns fan since 93, and I think this might be a good trade. At least, I'm intrigued by the possibilities. A lot depends on Shaq's health. If Shaq's healthy -- or, playable at the very least -- then Black Jesus (Stoudamire) moves into the 4 position and the Suns have a strong interior presence. Shaq's a big-ass roadblock in the paint and can get offensive rebounds. Yeah, would this trade be great if it were 96? Sure. But the bitter pill that Suns fans have to accept is the current team cannot compete for a championship. They win lots of regular season games but they come up short in the playoffs. This could help. But a change needs to be made.
Posted by Tony Dogs | February 6, 2008 9:37 AM