Shaq-Marion

Okay. I thought that this trade talk might just have been an election-induced hallucination. But apparently Phoenix is seriously considering doing this. A few points. One, as Hollinger says, it's bizarre to be making a big deal of any sort if you're the Suns:

The Phoenix Suns have the best record in the Western Conference, 1½ games ahead of their closest rival. They have the best scoring margin in the conference, and the best offensive efficiency in the NBA. They're 8-2 in their past 10 games (while outscoring opponents by nine points per game). And the Suns have a slew of home games coming up because their early schedule was so road-heavy.

On top of that, you don't even need to subscribe to an especially strong form of the "Shaq is dead" thesis to think this is a bad deal. The Matrix is a very, very, very good basketball player. An excellent defender, a great rebounder, and a very efficient scorer. And he's a great fit for the Suns' system, which doesn't rely on him to "create his own shot" but does need someone like Marion who can offer speed and shooting at the four spot. It's on top of all that that you need to look at Marion as a guy who's offering basically peak-level performance while Shaq is past his sell-by date.

Comments

The Gasol deal scared them s-less. They also think Marion is a cancer and that Diaw can do everything Marion does. Also, Shaq is done so when he hangs it up (at the end of this season if the Suns win) or next season they perhaps get a big salary cap break.

Posted by CAL | February 6, 2008 1:56 PM

Plus, how are you going to play the tempo the Suns want to play with Shaq in the lineup?

Posted by Dilan Esper | February 6, 2008 1:58 PM

Boris Diaw is a nice player and all, and he can do some things that Marion can't, but if the Suns think that "Diaw can do everything Marion does," then Steve Kerr has been taking GM tips from Michael Jordan.

Posted by too many steves | February 6, 2008 1:59 PM

Read the deal more closely and you'll find that Phoenix is considering trading Marion for Shaq + 37,000 sold homes.

Posted by Kriston | February 6, 2008 2:00 PM

Also, Shaq is done so when he hangs it up (at the end of this season if the Suns win) or next season they perhaps get a big salary cap break.

Shaq has two more years after this one, Marion one. No one walks away from $20 mil. unless they think they can get $21 mil.

Posted by SomeCallMeTim | February 6, 2008 2:07 PM

Plus, Shaq offers no more rebounding and his best defensive days are well behind him. He's probably less suited for a non-half court offense than Zydrunas Ilgauskas. Or the pine tree in my front yard.

And for a franchise that's quickly developed an enormous fear of the luxury tax, why are they willfully inheriting a contract that pays $20 mill to a guy whose production isn't much better than that of Tim Thomas.

Posted by Brent | February 6, 2008 2:10 PM

I know, right? This is nuts. Maybe when the Suns do a physical on Shaq they'll realize what bad shape he's in and call the deal off.

Posted by Tom | February 6, 2008 2:11 PM

This deal makes no sense. Therefore I refuse to believe that the Suns are serious about this. Something else is going on.

Posted by blah | February 6, 2008 2:12 PM

The Suns have repeatedly failed to get to the Finals with the team they have. Also, Steve Nash has two more years on his contract after this season. That means he and Shaq both come off the books at the same time. Keeping Marion means signing him to a long-term deal, trading him for another player who will also likely have a long-term deal or letting him walk after next season. I think this move makes good basketball and financial sense for the Suns, given their past failings on the court and their budget concerns.

Mike

Posted by MBunge | February 6, 2008 2:16 PM

If you're the Suns, wouldn't you rather have Noah, Wallace, and maybe Thomas? Or Noah, Joe Smith, and Thomas? And couldn't the Bulls use Marion?

Just insane.

Posted by SomeCallMeTim | February 6, 2008 2:18 PM

It doesn't matter how good the Suns are doing now. What matters is winning Championships and on that front they have failed repeatedly.

So I find it hard to blame them for making a move here. The question is whether it's the right move. And that does really depend on Shaq.

Posted by MIke | February 6, 2008 2:22 PM

I also do not get this one at all. Even if Shaq were in somewhat better shape, he wouldn't fit with the Suns offense. Maybe the Suns think that they can't get past the Lakers and Spurs without a true big man and a low-post power game. If so, they can't be thinking that they're going to use Shaq any more than just sparingly. A headscratcher for sure.

Posted by The Squid | February 6, 2008 2:22 PM

Aside from the implications for each team, if this trade goes through, would it not qualify as the ultimate "Ugly Shot Trade of All Time?" I mean seriously, Shaq "I don't take shots outside of 5 feet except for free throws, in which case I don't even bend my knees but merely arch my wrist towards the rim" for Shawn "I learned how to shoot at the expense of moving my shoulders" Marion?

In that sense at least, it's very equal.

Posted by Mike W. | February 6, 2008 2:23 PM

MBunge,

Their past failings on the court? Yes, they've failed to reach the Finals in the past 3 years. So have 25 other teams. Only 1 team can get out of the west every year, and the Suns have been right in the thick of it for the past 3 years. That's pretty good. In fact, they've probably been the 2nd-best team in the West every time. If you're consistently the 2nd-best team in the conference, your chances of winning it with the team you've got are pretty good. I don't see how making the team worse, which this trade would certainly do, is helping them deal with those alleged failings.

Posted by too many steves | February 6, 2008 2:25 PM

Hollinger also made a good point that, even if you accept that the Suns HAVE to trade Marion, there are at least 4 or 5 better options to explore before Shaq: Vince Carter, Richard Jefferson, AK47, something with the Bulls, etc. Not all of them are going to be plausible, but they're all MUCH better choices than trading for Shaq.

Posted by doofman | February 6, 2008 2:25 PM

When you look at the conference winning percentages, having the Suns shake things up isn't so bizzare. They have the best record in the West because they are 20-2 vs. the East, not because of their 14-12 record in the West (FYI, of the top 10 Western teams only Houston has a worse winning % vs. the West). The Suns need to make the Finals and they haven't been able to win in the West.

Posted by Mo | February 6, 2008 2:39 PM

Or they could go back to Summer '06 and you know, keep Rajon Rondo, who might have been helpful...

This would be the single dumbest move of my lifetime, with the possible exception of the Barkley for Hornacek and other shit trade.

Posted by Pooh | February 6, 2008 2:40 PM

This would be the single dumbest move of my lifetime, with the possible exception of the Barkley for Hornacek and other shit trade.

No, it would be dumber than that. Hornacek was good for 20 pts, 5 rb, and 5 ast his last year in PHO, and apparently he went 19/4/7 in PHI.

Posted by SomeCallMeTim | February 6, 2008 2:47 PM

Yeah, I was trying to avoid hyperbole. PLUS Philly was godawful with Barkley, so had to deal him...

Posted by Pooh | February 6, 2008 2:49 PM

What I've found interesting about the Suns is that unlike the Warriors (who are, IMO, much more revolutionary style-wise) their system relies on some fairly specific players, namely Marion and Stoudemire* at the 4 and the 5, where Marion in particular gives you a pretty unique skillset that covers a lot of the lineup's deficiencies (though in the end not enough, I suppose). The only guys I'm confident could take Marion's place without overhauling the system are Garnett and Kirilenko; there are a few others who might be close enough. And that's why I've figured the Suns can't last, because they depend on those two guys who don't like each other and don't like their job descriptions. I honestly don't think the Shaq trade is much more of a disruption than any other Marion-trade would be; I'd rather have Tyson Chandler (e.g.), and he fits a "running" style better, but they still wouldn't be the same team with Chandler that they are with Marion, at which point you might as well acknowledge that four guys running the break all out while the fifth guy lumbers up the court is still a fine way to play uptempo basketball. Financially I'm shocked, but if the Suns and Shaq can make the stylistic compromise**, I think they actually stay right where they are (i.e., in the title conversation but not, IMO, a real contender).

* I can only imagine that Amare is positively giddy at the prospect of spending most of his time at the 4, where he's either taller or stronger (and usually both) than just about anybody else. If I were Robert Sarver I'd use the money I saved by selling one of my first round draft picks to fly Bill Russell and Hakeem Olajuwon down to Phoenix so they can take Amare out to dinner and insult his manhood for the evening. And then maybe Wes Unseld could come by and beat him up.

** This comment is already too long for further elaboration, and I do think in the big picture Shaq is done, but I don't think his condition is necessarily as dire as it appears right now.

Posted by Quarterican | February 6, 2008 2:51 PM

anyone care to comment how this actually helps / impacts Miami? I mean, I know it can't get much worse there. Seems so Phx focused.

Posted by Dan | February 6, 2008 2:52 PM

Did Isiah Thomas take over the Suns while I wasn't paying attention? This strikes me as a monumentally stupid trade.

I'm trying to think of another championship contending team making a mid-season trade that killed their championship chances.

Posted by Jayhawk Max | February 6, 2008 3:01 PM

anyone care to comment how this actually helps / impacts Miami? I mean, I know it can't get much worse there. Seems so Phx focused.

As far as basketball, who cares? They are going nowhere this year anyway.

They get out from under Shaq's deal, and can either keep Marion (a decent fit for Wade) or sign-and-trade him.

This is McHale/Parish for Barry Carroll territory.

Posted by Pooh | February 6, 2008 3:11 PM

This is McHale/Parish for Barry Carroll territory.

You might be right that at this point Shaq for all intents and purposes = Joe Barely Cares, but come on. Shawn Marion + Marcus Banks suddenly = two Hall of Famers, one of whom is arguably a top 5 all timer at his position?

Posted by Quarterican | February 6, 2008 3:18 PM

Well, it's not a perfect analogy. BUT, we know going in that this deal is stupid. I'm really upset that I'm going to be flying during the TNT games tomorrow so I can't hear Barkley's "First of all, I love Shaq, I love Steve Kerr. But this deal is CRAZY..."

Posted by Pooh | February 6, 2008 3:20 PM

I agree with blah: this trade makes absolutely no sense, so something else is going on. My theory has two parts. First, the Suns are trying to put the fear of God into Marion, so he'll stop being such a jerk. Second, the Suns are advertising to the league as emphatically as possible that they will consider absolutely any deal for Marion.

Will it work? Probably not, but as long as they don't go through with this deal, it can't hurt.

Posted by Kit Stolz | February 6, 2008 3:26 PM

I guess my perspective - it's not at all a *smart* deal but it's not a catastrophically bad one either, at least from a basketball standpoint - is colored by my pre-existing presumptions, i.e.: (1) The Suns as they existed weren't going to win a title anyway; (2) there isn't a Marion deal available that won't disrupt the way the Suns play anyway (I tried to explain why I thought so in my too-wordy post above); (3) since I'm not a big fan, largely for issues of perceived attitude, of either Matrix or STAT, I'm willing to believe the lockerroom situation is growing untenable.

Posted by Quarterican | February 6, 2008 3:31 PM

"anyone care to comment how this actually helps / impacts Miami? I mean, I know it can't get much worse there. Seems so Phx focused."

I addressed this on the other thread. I think it helps Miami tremendously. More broadly, the whole series of moves that brough O'Neal to, and now sees him leaving, Miami has helped the Heat without the disasterous consequences some (e.g. Matthew Yglesias) predicted:

• We lost comparatively little to get O’Neal, who paid huge dividends in his first two years (first year with Miami, he helped get us to the Conference Finals – which we may well have won if he and Wade were healthy – and was second in the MVP voting; second year, obv. . . . )

• We won a championship with O’Neal. That’s something no other expansion team from our class (or any subsequent class) can claim. Indeed, with the exception of one team (O’Neal’s Magic team), no other expansion team from then or since has even sniffed a championship. In fact, I think only 5 teams have won an NBA title since perhaps 1989, and we’re in that club.

• Acquiring O’Neal helped Wade develop into the superstar he is today.

• The supposed downside was that O’Neal’s contract would weigh down the franchise for years. But now Riley has found a way out of that problem.

• In exchange for O’Neal, we get younger and more athletic, with an All-Star in his prime (29) whose contract expires in the off-season.

• So we’ll have a superstar (Wade), very likely a lottery pick (maybe the No. 1 pick, given how dismal we are this year), and can either keep Marion or can shed him. Either way, we’ll have oodles of money under the salary cap, with a very deep class of free agents to pursue (e.g., Brand, Arenas).

In sum, Miami won a championship and is poised to be very good for a long time, without having to endure any long-term rebuilding phase. Riley is a very shrewd GM.

Sorry to be longwinded.

Posted by Daniel, Esq. | February 6, 2008 3:32 PM

I think only 5 teams have won an NBA title since perhaps 1989, and we’re in that club.

Believe it's actually 6 since '87. (LAx2, DETx2, CHIx3, HOUx2, CHIx3, SA, LAx3, SA, DET, SA, MIA, SA). And that's also only 7 coaches.

Posted by Quarterican | February 6, 2008 3:41 PM

7 coaches s/b 6 coaches.

Posted by Quarterican | February 6, 2008 3:43 PM

Believe it's actually 6 since '87. (LAx2, DETx2, CHIx3, HOUx2, CHIx3, SA, LAx3, SA, DET, SA, MIA, SA). And that's also only 7 coaches.

Actually, it's only 6 coaches. Riley in LAx2 and MIA, Jackson in CHI and LAx3, Pop in SA, Daly in DETx2, Brown in DET and Tomjanovich in HOU.

Daniel,
If Kerr bails out Riley, than yes Riley made out like a bandit. Of course, looking back, so did Kupchak. Shaq wasn't going to win another championship in LA because he wasn't getting back in shape. And he got Odom, Bynum (via the pick) and Gasol (Butler for Kwame for Pau). Setting them up for a better future.

Posted by Mo | February 6, 2008 3:52 PM

(1) The Suns as they existed weren't going to win a title anyway;

I think this has got to be the motivating factor for the deal, from the PHX perspective. As I said on the other thread, it seemed to me that the Suns were a bloody nose and a cheap suspension away last year, so why would people think they couldn't do it this year? But obviously there are a lot of people who think this - including Steve Kerr.

So what is the reason that people think the Suns couldn't win a title as currently constituted? If people can answer what they think the flaw is in PHX's game that prevents them from being able to win the title, we can see if the Shaq acquisition fixes it. Is the problem offense-related, or defense-related? The Suns are one of the most efficient offense teams in the league, so I doubt that people think it is offense related (although, to be fair, as good as Amare is, he sometimes disappears in the half court). So what's the issue with their defense? Nash is obviously one problem, but that can't be fixed. I guess the other problem people see is a lack of size. In particular - PHX is a horrificly bad rebounding team... the lowest rebound rate in the league both on the offensive and defensive glass. This only works if they think that Shaq can be an effective defender and rebounder, especially when playing together with Amare. Maybe so.

Posted by Al | February 6, 2008 4:03 PM

whose contract expires in the off-season.

This is wrong. He can opt out, but his contract goes another year.

Posted by SomeCallMeTim | February 6, 2008 4:08 PM

BTW, I also find Mo's point above regarding the Suns record against Western teams to be persuasive. Those are the teams they need to beat to get to the NBA Finals, and (despite their overall record so far) they haven't been that good at beating them.

And when you've got Dallas and SA and Houston and Utah - and now LA - who were going to completely murder the Suns on the glass, maybe they just felt that the small ball wasn't going to be able to get them through three full rounds of the playoffs. (As GS found out last year.)

One still wonders about Kurt Thomas, but that's water under the bridge by now.

Posted by Al | February 6, 2008 4:13 PM

Al -

I don't think Shaq08 really addresses the reasons why I feel the Suns weren't going to win a title; Shaq06 probably would. (i.e., the idea of Shaq is appropriate, but the reality will be a let down.) Whether he can return to that state under more favorable conditions is open to question. But I think you touched on the reasons why I don't think the Suns were legit; Amare can fade in a halfcourt offensive situation, and he's nowhere near providing championship-quality post defense. Amare's quest to be a 4 drives me insane but whether at the 4 or the 5 I think he needs someone next to him who can cover up for those shortcomings. Ultimately it's that I think the Suns were sort of caught in between: they couldn't beat the Spurs (and last year they had Kurt Thomas doing yeoman's work) given multiple tries, couldn't beat the Mavs, struggled to beat the Lakers. Why? Because they didn't have the pieces to beat those teams at the pace and in the style in which those series were played* and they lacked either the pieces or the willpower to impose their will and make the FreeDarko ideal of what the Suns are a reality. (In other words, they have better players than the Warriors, so they'll go deeper in the playoffs, but they're not the Warriors, so they can't really win.)

* Which is to say: Duncan and Dirk can run. Not quite at the pace wehre the Suns would want to run, maybe, but fast enough that they're not blown off the floor, so the game winds up being played at a compromise which suits the Texans just fine. The potential Suns-Heat Finals would've been interesting because Shaq06 didn't have that kind of mobility, so it would've been a more transparent contest of will as far as enforcing a style of play.

Posted by Quarterican | February 6, 2008 4:21 PM

As a Spurs fan, I think this is a fantastic deal! Marion can kill you, as he almost did the Spurs in their last Suns game.

Posted by Bob Gaines | February 6, 2008 5:00 PM

This also allows Miami to play the up-tempo game that Wade and Miami's other youngins (Wright, Cook) excel in. Between Haslem, Wright, and Marion, the Fs should be fast, versatile, fantastic defensively and killer on the boards, and exceptional in the transition game. The team is lacking a real dynamic PG and a C who can play that up-tempo game, but they have a top lottery pick and apparently Marcus Banks coming, so that's not the worst position in the world

Exciting time to be a Heat fan and Obama volunteer :D

Posted by Michael | February 6, 2008 5:24 PM

"So what is the reason that people think the Suns couldn't win a title as currently constituted? If people can answer what they think the flaw is in PHX's game that prevents them from being able to win the title, we can see if the Shaq acquisition fixes it. Is the problem offense-related, or defense-related?"

It's both offense and defense.

On offense, the Suns (especially at the end of games) are unbelievabley dependent on pick and roll plays with Nash. They basically don't do anything else. And while the pick and roll is effective, it becomes a lot less effective when the other team knows that it's the only thing you're going to do. Shaq gives them a low-post option that Amare doesn't at crunch time, even with Shaq's horrific free throw shooting.

On defense, the Suns don't play any for long stretches during games. Shaq will clog up the middle anytime he's out there and turn Amare into an even better weakside shot blocker. The Suns other defensive problem is that Amare is not a good defender when matched up against the big centers out West. Now Shaq can take that job and allow Amare to physically overwhelm a lot of power forwards.

If Phoenix still had Kurt Thomas or another credible big, trading for Shaq would be incredibly stupid. But that terrible move makes this move not that bad.

Mike

Posted by MBunge | February 6, 2008 5:36 PM

Mike, you want to run the ball through Shaq at the end of the game? Here's what you'll see: Foul, clank, clank, game over.

What a ridiculous trade. Could they have gotten Gasol with this package? Absolutely, and he'd be closer to what they need than Shaq (although still too weak on the boards, inside, etc). I'd say Shaq's odometer has rolled around twice. He's done. Might as well make this trade for Ewing or Hakeem, they've got about as much left in the tank as Shaq does. 14 pts and 8 boards this year? A total of 3 games over 20 pts? I could see this trade if they were giving up Diaw, Banks, and Bell. But Marion? No way.

And if you think Diaw is going to step up in Marion's place, you're nuts. Diaw has been horrible this year, and he's getting 28 min/game, so it's not due to lack of playing time.

Posted by Crusty Dem | February 6, 2008 5:50 PM

ESPN says the deal is done:

In one of the most improbable trades in NBA history, the Miami Heat traded Shaquille O'Neal to the Phoenix Suns on Wednesday for Shawn Marion and Marcus Banks, sources close to the situation told ESPN.com.

Gonna be interesting. I think it was a sizable mistake.

Posted by SomeCallMeTim | February 6, 2008 6:09 PM

Yep, gonna be interesting. To maybe restate what I said above, I think the Suns are just of the opinion that their defense and rebounding are simply not good enough to get through 3 rounds in the West against teams like Utah, Dallas, SA, and the Lakers. Yes, they will likely take a hit on offensive efficiency. But they are the best in the league right now in offensive efficiency, so I suppose they think they can take that hit. But Shaq is a better rebounder than Marion, and Shaq/Amare simply gives their interior a presence that Amare/Marion doesn't.

This still leaves the "why trade Kurt Thomas" question open - Thomas is a good rebounder and decent defender, although he was undersized as a 5. I'll be surprised if their rebounding doesn't improve a lot, and I think rebounding is the main reason for the trade.

Posted by Al | February 6, 2008 6:22 PM

This still leaves the "why trade Kurt Thomas" question open

C'mon, Al. I think it leaves more than that open. There are other players who are fleet of foot and defensively oriented. Chicago's looking to dump Wallace. Why not demand Noah + Wallace + a pick for Marion? I'd rather have Noah than Shaq.

Posted by SomeCallMeTim | February 6, 2008 6:27 PM

Is Shaq really a better rebounder than Marion? I know he has a higher per-minute rate, but his minutes will always be limited because of foul trouble, injuries, age, etc. Marion average double figures every year. He's a great rebounder. He's also a better defensive player than Shaq, even at guarding big men. Marion can guard Duncan better than Shaq can, for example.

Posted by too many steves | February 6, 2008 6:34 PM

Suns were toast in the playoffs without making moves, as demonstrated when Andrew Bynum dominated them. With the Lakers adding Gasol, the frontcourt domination just would have worsened.

Adding Shaq is a huge risk, but if he's motivated and stays healthy, Suns don't have size issues anymore, Amare can move to PF where he's the best in the league (and will be a better defender there too), and Grant Hill and Boris Diaw can cover the SF minutes.

Nash will optimize Shaq too, whenever the Suns don't get a shot off in 6-9 seconds, as will the Suns spacing on the floor. Shaq has been doubled his whole career, but how do you double him with Amare and Nash playing with him, as well as willing snipers on the perimeter?

It remains to be seen if Shaq can stay healthy, but you'll know he'll be motivated, and if he does stay healthy, I believe this does improve the Suns outlook, though I still don't believe they can get past the Lakers, unless Bynum isn't 100%.

If anything, as a Lakers fan, I love this in the sense of how much crazier this is going to make the Suns rivalry, since we literally hate those guys for bouncing us from the playoffs consecutively, inspiring the Kobe madness of this summer, and now they add Shaq?

I'm loving it, but only because I still feel we're better than them with the addition of Pau (though I am a little worried about Amare operating at the 4 now).

Posted by Jimm | February 6, 2008 9:04 PM

Also, Marion was unhappy and going to leave that team anyway at his first available opportunity, so why stretch out the bad chemistry when the Lakers are dominating you with a full squad (and before the arrival of Gasol)?

Posted by Jimm | February 6, 2008 9:07 PM

The undying faith in Shaq is bizarre. Up until about 2 weeks ago, insane people (like headline writers on Yahoo! Sports) were still talking about the Heat "turning around" their season. And yet they haven't been good all year. They've been mediocre to horrible since they won the title; they were humiliated in last year's playoffs and may go years after their championship before they win a single playoff game.

I now see that it all came down to irrational faith in the abilities of Shaq. Steve Kerr seems to have this dumb idea that the Suns need beef in the middle (perhaps because of LA's recent improvements?), but this is very slow, old, low-grade beef. Couldn't the Suns have gone after a big with some spring? Kaman? Blatche?! Darko?!? David Stern should look at the Shaq deal and the Gasol deal and see if some GMs need their heads examined or are corrupt.

This is a team that was *selling* draft picks in the offseason, and now they're suddenly prodigal. They could have traded the picks for a big stiff or two and given themselves a defensive answer to Bynum. Now they have a huge person who can't score much and can't defend much either.

My first and only plug for a fine NBA blog: themelobackpedal.com

Posted by Colatina | February 6, 2008 9:26 PM

Here's another reason this trade sucks: how are Nash and Amare supposed to run that pick & roll if Shaq and his defender are clogging up the interior?

Posted by too many steves | February 6, 2008 10:42 PM

count me with those who think this is too crazy for words. i mean, even if it does pan out, the odds of that happening are so low you seemingly never make this trade. did the suns really not realize how marion was the engine that made that offense run? i guess will see now, but this seems way removed from dealing joe j or q.

Posted by dj superflat | February 6, 2008 11:32 PM

will shaq try to cut deals with other centers not to run the floor (like those guys at the gym who always seem to hang around under their own basket, grabbing the occasional long outlet pass)? or will he just let the suns play 4 on 5 much of the time?

Posted by dj superflat | February 7, 2008 12:31 AM

This thread alone has made me think that Shaq is going to work out just fine for the Suns.

Posted by nolaboyd | February 7, 2008 12:39 AM

This trade is either stupid or brilliant. It's one of those. I started out the day thinking it was stupid but now - what with everybody trashing it - I've started cheering it on. I have a lot of admiration for Marion's game - that man is a serious athlete, one of the best in the league and a great defender - but I think there is more to his supposed "unhappiness" in Phoenix than everyone in this thread admitting to. He got to play with Steve Nash. The Suns made him the 11th highest player in the league - and still he was unhappy? Not enough respect? Number three after Nash and Stoudemire? Spare me. Perhaps it really had passed a tipping point of 'locker room toxicity', and then all of a sudden The Heat are shopping Shaq, and its decision time. So what are you going to do? Especially if he was going to leave first chance he got anyway. Shaq has a reason to be motivated now. I have no idea how healthy he is - but I certainly hope its enough for this arrangement to get a fair run. Maybe he's not. I really don't know. But he was going through a divorce back in Miami and his team had become the worst in the league. Now all of a sudden he has something to prove. Just like that. He has made teams better everywhere he's gone. He's won four championships. The Showtime Lakers ran the shit out of the floor with Kareem as their center. The Suns have a lot more then Diaw on the wing. Raja Bell proved he can be a great defender when he totally got to Kobe in the playoffs two years ago. They have Grant Hill now. Steve Nash makes everyone better, and now he has a new challenge in doing the same with Shaq. The Suns biggest problem in the playoffs was always interior defense and presence. If Shaq is healthy he could be the ticket. He could get them over the hump. This move MAY BE BRILLIANT. He doesn't have to be the Shaq of old, he just needs to find enough to get the job done. Finally, somebody would be able to guard Duncan. And with tony Parker out "indefinitely". And I do truly hope there is another L.A. - Phoenix series. As a fan -that would be totally awesome.

Posted by wu tang | February 7, 2008 2:32 AM

1. Steve Kerr's father was assassinated while serving as president of the American University of Beirut during the '80s. And his scholarship, particularly his takedown of Edward Said's Orientalism, still more than stands up.

2. Shaq more than plays along with my local wacky sports radio station's interviews, which feature hypotheticals like "would you nurse from your mother's best friend's nipples if it guaranteed an NBA championship?"

For these reasons, I support the trade. Plus, look at the Lakers in the late Kareem years. They did fine with the four-man fastbreak, with Kareem arriving a good 20 minutes after the rest of the team.

Posted by Mike | February 7, 2008 3:17 AM

I'm still skeptical about what Shaq can bring to this team (and to be clear, I expect occasional good games, but I'm most interested whether he has a negative effect on Nash et al by slowing down their fast-paced attack). The four man fast break (or even 1, 2, or 3 man) can work if you have finishers (see Jordan/Pippen, no open court finishers like that on the Suns now).

Nice to see Diaw make me look like an idiot. If he can go 22-7-5 (or just 15-7-5 with a good FG%), they might not miss Marion too much. Although defense is going to be a continuing problem.

Posted by Crusty Dem | February 7, 2008 7:43 AM

What's with all the comparisons to the Showtime Lakers? That team worked because it was deadly top to bottom. Who is going to be Byron Scott, Raja Bell or Diaw? I knew James Worthy, and as much as I love the guy, Grant Hill is no James Worthy.

Posted by Mo | February 7, 2008 10:33 AM

The trade has apparently gone through so my only comment is that Yahoo Sports is reporting that Kerr didn't go over D’Antoni’s head to do it.

"Five days ago, Kerr walked into D’Antoni’s office and told him that the Miami Heat had called him. They could have Shaquille O’Neal. D’Antoni’s eyes grew wide. He nodded yes, and Kerr cautioned, “Well, let’s talk about this a little bit.”

They shut the door and started an excruciating week of deliberations that resulted with the biggest gamble in the history of the NBA."

Still, trading young for old, speed for slow (or immobile) is not the way to go usually.

Posted by SteveH | February 7, 2008 10:35 AM

The trade has apparently gone through so my only comment is that Yahoo Sports is reporting that Kerr didn't go over D’Antoni’s head to do it.

"Five days ago, Kerr walked into D’Antoni’s office and told him that the Miami Heat had called him. They could have Shaquille O’Neal. D’Antoni’s eyes grew wide. He nodded yes, and Kerr cautioned, “Well, let’s talk about this a little bit.”

They shut the door and started an excruciating week of deliberations that resulted with the biggest gamble in the history of the NBA."

Still, trading young for old, speed for slow (or immobile) is not the way to go usually.

Posted by SteveH | February 7, 2008 10:36 AM

Mo writes: "Daniel, [i]f Kerr bails out Riley, than yes Riley made out like a bandit. Of course, looking back, so did Kupchak. Shaq wasn't going to win another championship in LA because he wasn't getting back in shape. And he got Odom, Bynum (via the pick) and Gasol (Butler for Kwame for Pau). Setting them up for a better future."

Well, O'Neal clearly COULD have gotten in shape and helped LA win at least one more title (he did in Miami, obv.). Maybe the karma was so bad in LA that this isn't realistic; we'll never know.

But if LA kept O'Neal, they could have been the ones to dump him off this year for good young talent. I realize LA wouldn't have dealt O'Neal to Phoenix (or any Western Conference team), but if LA got similar value to what Miami just got, I'd say they would have been wiser to hold O'Neal for another year or two (put differently, I'll take what we just got for O'Neal over what we originally gave away for O'Neal).

Posted by Daniel, Esq. | February 7, 2008 3:20 PM

And, BTW, this is hardly the first amazingly savvy move Riley has pulled off. Within days of coming to our woebegotten franchise (the Heat), he acquired Alonzo Mourning and Tim Hardaway, and we were immediately relevant. Soon thereafter, he moved aggressively to get Dwight Howard (I know it didn't work out, but still). He drafted D. Wade, which isn't a huge surprise, but Wade's easily exceeded even the high expectations placed on him when he came into the league. He then -- in an amazing trade -- acquired O'Neal, and made Miami an immediate title contender. When O'Neal declined (or wore out his welcome here (there are two schools of thought)), he made this deal, clearing the way for Miami to become competitive again quickly without a prolonged rebuilding.

Posted by Daniel, Esq. | February 7, 2008 3:27 PM