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Spoilage

05 Feb 2008 03:28 pm

In general, nobody likes a spoiler. But John O'Sullivan argues that a conservative refusal to endorse John McCain may be rational even if one stipulates that Hillary Clinton or Barack Obama would be substantially more liberal:

Many conservatives believe that the key question in this election is: Are there to be two multiculturalist open-borders parties or one? If McCain’s election were to make the GOP fundamentally similar to the Democrats on immigration, bilingualism, racial preferences, and all the National Question issues, that would be a resounding historical defeat for conservatives.

The willingness of a President McCain to cooperate with the Democrats would give such issues as an immigration amnesty a better chance of passage than under a President Hillary or Obama even against strong GOP resistance in Congress. Opponents of such policies, despite enjoying majority support among the voters, would find themselves politically marginalized. On the other hand, a united Republican opposition might well stop a Democratic White House from passing these measures because its party would be nervous of finding itself on the wrong side of a popular issue in the next midterm elections.

I think it's probably true that, in practice, a comprehensive immigration reform is more likely to come in a McCain administration than it would in an Obama or a Clinton administration. So in a narrow sense, O'Sullivan's making sense. What's more, a deliberate effort by the nativist wing of the conservative movement to spike McCain would help ensure that, in the future, conservatives whose main priorities aren't immigration kowtow to the restrictionist side of the "National Question." Thus, in a strict sense O'Sullivan is making some sense here.

But this analysis seems to entirely lack context. If electing a pro-amnesty Republican whose administration fails to ban affirmative action programs would be the end of the conservative movement, then Ronald Reagan's eight years in office were, just like George W. Bush's, a "resounding historical defeat for conservatives." Conservatives can be purists if they like, but the reality is that these are issues on which people who agree with O'Sullivan have never held the whip-hand, and it's unlikely that they ever really will as long as the GOP remains the party of business first and foremost.

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Comments (32)

McCain lacks the Gipper's thespian abilities and speechwriters.

Ronald Reagan could say one thing and win the base over, and then do something totally against the grain of conservative thought, but in line with Wall Street interests.

But then, Reagan also had the Soviet Union to stir up his base with, and let's be honest - Al Qaeda and Iraq just don't stack up with that.

"National Question issues"? What's that supposed to be?

My guess is that Ron Paul ends up getting an amazingly large percentage for a third party candidate, maybe quite a lot more than Perot.

Basically, the conservative movement media people will build up Ron Paul to hurt McCain. And the liberal media people will build up Ron Paul...to hurt McCain. And the angry anti-War liberals will vote for him out of disgust, just like the angry conservatives.

Remember, the polls will probably show that most states are anyway out-of-play, so all those "disgust" votes for Ron Paul will be completely free and "harmless"...

I sometimes wonder whether this logic doesn't make some sense at least in the senate and the house. We've caved on a lot of legislation since '06, and the argument seems to be that we don't want to lose legislators in vulnerable districts. But that's just weird-the reason the democratic party exists isn't to get as many people to attach a "D" next to their name as possible, it's to get certain things done in office. If the new conservative leaning democrats in the senate have to constantly be protected from the consequences of progressive legislation, they are more a hindrance than a help to the party.

"National Question" sounds a little too creepily like "Final Solution" to me. I should know, being a Fascist and all.

Considering the state of the nation and national sentiment, a Democratic administration had better focus on pocket-book issues and the war (i.e., nuts and bolts, not ideology) if they don't want to be reversed at the polls in 2010. Far better to haggle over food-stamps and unemployment benefits as stimulus than whether or not to go on giving American capital the disposable labor it wants by making our borders a working fiction.

Mid-term elections usually go against the party of a new administration, iirc, and this is a nation looking for some goddam policy results. Otherwise, there'll be hell to pay.
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"And the liberal media people will build up Ron Paul...to hurt McCain."

That's absurd. One of the few things that seems obvious from this campaign so far is that the media loves John McCain (and Obama). Ron Paul, despite his tremendous fundraising, has never been treated seriously by the mainstream media.

I think O'Sullivan would say that Reagan should be judged by a different yardstick than a GOP President in 2009. The country was a bit more liberal in 1981 than O'Sullivan thinks it is now. Things that had to be "tolerated" by conservatives in 1986 (e.g. amnesty) are no longer necessary, in his view. The Reagan revolution should be built upon, not just repeated, etc. etc.

I think he's wrong, but I think he could make an argument that he is being internally consistent. Reagan was elected almost 30 years ago and the country is really different and what's politically possible and impossible is not the same now as it was then.

I fucking love that the GOP is ready to slit it's own throat, all in the name of preventing Mexicans from doing their dishes and cleaning up their shit. The horror...the horror...

But seriously, if I thought the political right in the country had any credibility or even decency, I would be more surprised that the Republican party hasn't rushed to embrace the vast numbers of Latino immigrants in this country. I mean, these people are the very embodiment of everything that political conservatives sanctify and revere about "American Values": they are mostly very traditional, and strongly family-oriented, they're all Christian, they firmly believe--and more importantly practice the Protestant work ethic, etc. etc. the list goes one, but you get the point...the only thing is that english isn't they're first language, and increasingly America is becoming a bilingual country, which of course terrifies them for reasons that have nothing to do with "securing our border."

I fucking love that the GOP is ready to slit it's own throat, all in the name of preventing Mexicans from doing their dishes and cleaning up their shit. The horror...the horror...

But seriously, if I thought the political right in the country had any credibility or even decency, I would be more surprised that the Republican party hasn't rushed to embrace the vast numbers of Latino immigrants in this country. I mean, these people are the very embodiment of everything that political conservatives sanctify and revere about "American Values": they are mostly very traditional, and strongly family-oriented, they're all Christian, they firmly believe--and more importantly practice the Protestant work ethic, etc. etc. the list goes one, but you get the point...the only thing is that english isn't they're first language, and increasingly America is becoming a bilingual country, which of course terrifies them for reasons that have nothing to do with "securing our border."

I still think this has more to do with conservative media self interest. A democratic (particularly Hillary) victory would be a boon for conservative media. They need a real opposition in power to be commercially viable. Their slavish devotion to Bush, coupled with his poor performance, has hurt their sales. Coulter's latest book, for instance, is selling dismally.

looking at the campaign contributions the Ds have received this cycle, what makes you think it's the GOP that's the party of business?

Healthcare entitlements, cap-and-trade credits, -- those look like pretty juicy business handouts, don't they?

"Far better to haggle over food-stamps and unemployment benefits as stimulus than whether or not to go on giving American capital the disposable labor it wants by making our borders a working fiction."

So very true. Though some insist on seeing opposition to amnesty as confined to the xenophobes, racists, rednecks, etc. Spitzer's humbling experience in NY (bluest of the blue) proves otherwise. But it looks like the Dems will learn this the hard way. One corporate whoring party was bad enough. Now we've got two.

dearleader nyc writes: "they are mostly very traditional"

Hispanics have a 49.9% illegitimacy rate. How is that traditional?

"I fucking love that the GOP is ready to slit it's own throat, all in the name of preventing Mexicans from doing their dishes and cleaning up their shit."

The GOP would be slitting its own throat by passing an amnesty that adds a huge permanent underclass to the electorate. Such an underclass will always vote for grievance- and redistribution-based policies rather than pro-growth economic policies. The fantasy that the nominal Catholicism of campesino immigrants would make them social conservatives is just that: a fantasy.

O'Sullivan's right: Better to have a Dem President than McCain. Amnesty is still overwhelmingly unpopular in America -- remember the uproar against the Bush-McCain-Kennedy legislation last year? The grass roots could probably stop another amnesty deal, but having a Republican President endorse it denies conservatives any political momentum from its defeat. If it gets proposed under a Dem President, the Dems (and a handful of Republican "mavericks" like McCain, Hutchinson, etc.) will own the blowback.

Such an underclass will always vote for grievance- and redistribution-based policies rather than pro-growth economic policies.

Policies that benefit working people as opposed to corporate interests have always been the most effective pro-growth policies.

My joy at watching the GOP turn the Hispanic vote as Democratic as the Black vote is hard to understate. Becoming the party of hardcore nativist sentiment and resentment is such an amazingly bad long term strategy.

It will make what Pete Wilson did to the Republicans in California look like nothing.

The party of old white men -- that's the ticket.

Look up something called the LaRazaUnida party. At some point in time, the Dems might find themselves hoist on their own racial demagoguery, as people like FabianNunez decide they don't need the Dems anymore and start their own party.

"National Question" sounds a little too creepily like "Final Solution" to me. I should know, being a Fascist and all.

Good catch. The "Final Solution", after all, was posited as a solution to the "Jewish Question". The Jewish Question was, of course, the "question" of whether Jews could "live" in Western Europe (in other words, whether bigoted European Christians wanted them there). It was considered a serious intellectual issue in the 19th and early 20th Centuries.

The National Question, of course, is whether bigoted white American conservatives want Hispanics in the United States.

As an example of how the Dems might have bit off more than they can chew, late last year the president of a group that's part of the Dem Party's extended network 'said the road to "empowerment" is organizing Latinos to vote. "What does a revolutionary do in the U.S. today? ...Take power wherever you can" by electing Latinos to city, state, and federal offices...'

"Policies that benefit working people as opposed to corporate interests have always been the most effective pro-growth policies."

Corporations are run by "working people". How can policies that hurt corporations help those corporations' employees?

Curiously, none of these conservative nativists ever seems to get very upset with George W Bush and many of them would probably vote for him if he were allowed to run for a third term. Yet there's not enough room to insert a blade of grass between Bush and McCain on immigration.

"Curiously, none of these conservative nativists ever seems to get very upset with George W Bush..."

The "nativist" name-calling is as tired as it is dishonest. The amnesty was also opposed by a significant percentage of Latino Americans -- were they "nativists" too? If you had listened to any random five minutes of talk radio last year, you would know that Bush got plenty of criticism from conservatives for his embrace of amnesty.

Corporations are run by "working people". How can policies that hurt corporations help those corporations' employees?

The people who run corporations are generally not referred to as "working people." Given a choice between policies that benefit CEOs and policies that benefit the working class, the latter result in more growth.

"The people who run corporations are generally not referred to as "working people."

The people who run corporations are generally known as "employees". "Employees" are usually considered to be "working people", by most rational observers. You can't hamstring corporations without harming their employees. Energy companies, drug companies, and other corporations maligned by lefties are full of working people -- often well-paid ones at that -- whose livelihoods are imperiled by lefty policies.

The National Question, of course, is whether bigoted white American conservatives want Hispanics in the United States.

No, it's whether bigoted leftists will succeed in driving non-Hispanic whites out.

But seriously, if I thought the political right in the country had any credibility or even decency, I would be more surprised that the Republican party hasn't rushed to embrace the vast numbers of Latino immigrants in this country. I mean, these people are the very embodiment of everything that political conservatives sanctify and revere about "American Values": they are mostly very traditional, and strongly family-oriented, they're all Christian, they firmly believe--and more importantly practice the Protestant work ethic, etc. etc. the list goes one, but you get the point...the only thing is that english isn't they're first language, and increasingly America is becoming a bilingual country, which of course terrifies them for reasons that have nothing to do with "securing our border."

Dearleader, aside from the fact that Hispanic conservatism is a LIE, there is also the fact that poor people, particularly poor minorities, tend to forget their "cultural values" when the welfare gets rolling, and vote for whoever will give them the most of someone else's money.

Policies that benefit working people as opposed to corporate interests have always been the most effective pro-growth policies.

But not policies that encourage people to drop out of school, go on the dole, and start having babies.

"But not policies that encourage people to drop out of school, go on the dole, and start having babies."

Those policies are why the black unemployment rate is nearly double that of the white rate. And that lack of interest in working among so many blacks is why businesses want to import peasants from Mexico. Of course, as the second generation grows up in a generous welfare state, it looses that peasant work-ethic. Hence the demand now for "guest workers".

Curiously, none of these conservative nativists ever seems to get very upset with George W Bush

JonF, why not just yell out "I have no idea what I am talking about". That is just about what you just did.

Re: JonF, why not just yell out "I have no idea what I am talking about". That is just about what you just did.

Interesting that no one addressed my point. Just flung cheap insults.

Can I try again. Assuming you are not living in an alternate universe, do you recall that Bush put forward the very "amnesty" plan that John Mccain is being savaged for supporting last year? Why did Bush receive, at worst, mild criticism, while McCain is treated like Judas, Brutus and Benedict Arnold over this matter?

"Interesting that no one addressed my point. Just flung cheap insults."

I addressed it already above. You are completely ignorant of the number one topic of conservative talk radio and blogs all last year.

Seriously JonF, if you don't know how Republicans felt about immigration reform, google is your friend. Try "bush approval immigration". First hit is this:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19209733/
and I quote the lede:

Republicans abandoning Bush
NBC/WSJ poll: President’s, Congress’ ratings drop to lowest levels ever

updated 8:05 p.m. ET, Wed., June. 13, 2007
WASHINGTON - As President Bush attempts to revive the controversial immigration reform bill he supports, the latest NBC News/Wall Street Journal poll finds that Republicans are abandoning the president, which has dropped his job-approval rating below 30 percent -- his lowest mark ever in the survey.
Right now, Republicans aren't showing so much hate against Bush simply because there's nothing they can do about him any more. And the amnesty failed, so immediately there is no problem. But that same hate also works for McCain, who is, as you note, politically similar to Bush. That is exactly what you are seeing now: conservative frustration with Bush directed to the next best target.

No, it's whether bigoted leftists will succeed in driving non-Hispanic whites out.

A tip for you conservatives. When you pretend that there is no bigotry on the right and the left is full of "anti-white" or "anti-Christian" bigots, you really do look like idiots. Nobody outside the cocoon believes that, and for very good reason.


Comments closed February 19, 2008.

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