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The Conservation of Virtues

15 Feb 2008 05:29 pm

I'd like to associate myself with Mike Lux's puzzlement over this line of argument from Hillary Clinton:

Speeches don't put food on the table. Speeches don't fill up your tank, or fill up your prescription, or do anything about that stack of bills that keeps you up at night. My opponent gives speeches. I offer solutions.

And, clearly, speeches don't put food on the table. But it's not as if Hillary Clinton doesn't give speeches. Giving speeches is part of being a presidential candidate. Indeed, it's also part of being president. And, again, both candidates deliver speeches. So it would seem that Clinton is accusing Obama of giving speeches well. I've written previously about this implicit appeal to a conservation of virtues principle from the Clinton campaign -- the smart girl must be ugly, the guy who gives good speeches must not have policy proposals -- and it doesn't makes less sense, rather than more sense, when Clinton makes the argument more directly.

Obama does, after all, have an energy plan and a jobs plan and a health care plan. It's true that he doesn't have much experience as a legislator, but he has more experience in that role than Hillary Clinton has. Now obviously she's free to argue that his health care plan is worse than hers (I think it is) or that her environment/energy plan is better than his (I think it isn't), but the fact that he's a better orator just doesn't count as evidence for the inferiority of his proposals.

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Comments (120)

Your words are not edible, so I can't take them seriously.

This is Rovian judo, pure & simple: attack someone for their perceived strength. Obama gives good speeches, therefore giving speeches is bad.

To Obama's credit, when he tried the Rove-a-dope ("You may have though the Clinton years were great, but think of how much greater they should've been!") he did it badly.

I suspect this line is meant to appeal to Clinton's base, and not Obama's. To that extent, it's probably pretty effective.

. . . and it doesn't makes less sense, rather than more sense, when Clinton makes the argument more directly.

Wait, was that a triple negative or just a double negative? Head spinning, vision blurring . . . I don't think this could not make more sense if the author hadn't expressed it less directly.

It's not a rational argument meant to be parsed. It's an emotional appeal to any underlying doubts about Obama - that he is some slick, glib speaker who has a silver tongue but not enough experience or substance to be President. It's a perception that exists among some percentage of voters and Clinton is trying to reinforce it.

Bill Clinton gets over a hundred grand a speech nowadays.

I could put a lot of food on the dinner table for a a hundred grand.

She's appealing to a certain perception that Obama only makes feel-good speeches and doesn't offer any policy solutions. I have a feeling this perception is widely held; accordingly, this appeal might resonate with quite a few people beyond her dedicated base of supporters. As we know, when things like this become entrenched narratives they are very difficult to overcome no matter how untrue they are. This is why I've hoped for a little while now that Obama would reveal his wonky side a little bit more in his presentations, since no one seems to acknowledge the various position papers his campaign has issued.

Hillary's campaign has become a tragic farce. Hardly a day goes by where we don't read of another snafu-- bickering within her team, money issues, tactical errors, whining about media bias....

We're not getting any of that crap from the Obama people. They are just going about their business.

Is it possible this uptight bitch can sink any lower?

A speech about the pointlessness of speeches. It's the Clinton campaign's moment of Zen.
.

Her dismissal of the power of the speech is terribly revealing.
Thomas De Zengotita has a terrific insight in his book "Mediated" about the power of the presentation. The under-40 crowd has grown to expect polished, sensation-oriented, dynamic presentations in every area of their lives.
Diana's funeral is a good example.
Howard Dean understood this: the movement is the moment.
I invited a speaker to a conference a few years ago who had great material, but because he was a university professor, had no idea how to hold an audience. He failed.
Bill Clinton knew this, and turned it all upside down in his day with the Town Hall. Now Obama has dialed it up a notch. Hillary and wonks like her look down on the power of presentation. That's why they make great advisors, lousy leaders.
We're looking for a leader, aren't we?
McCain does lousy presentations too.

"Speeches don't put food on the table."
Tell that to Mike Huckabee

... and of course her second line of attack is to claim that when Obama does present his policies, they're all stolen from her. I think she really thinks she's got him going both ways.

What Grand Moff said.

I've also enjoyed the "Obama stole my economic ideas, and they don't work" line of attack.

Oh, come on Matt! Criticizing somebody for being more style than substance is hardly novel.

Sure Obama's got position papers, but that's not what's driving his campaign. His support is largely base on "giving speeches well". Perfectly legitimate observation.

This nitpicking of Hillary is getting ridiculous.

Did Hillary actually say that "Speeches don't put food on the table." ??


So maybe that means that she and hubby Bill don't mind giving all that money that he's been making on the speech circuit to charity or something?

There are no less than 58 speeches in the "Speeches" section of HillaryClinton.com. Seeing as she communicates her plans to voters by, um, speaking. Does she think it's unfair when Obama speaks? What does she propose he does to communicate with voters? Use smoke signals, carrier pigeons, and kettle drums?

Clinton: Let the conversation begin!
Obama: In the unlikely story that is America...
Clinton: WHAT DID I TELL YOU ABOUT THAT BARACK!!
Obama: Oh. Sorry Hillary.
Obama: Ca-caw! Ca-caw! [wisp wisp wisp] Dum-da, dum-da, dum dum, dum-da!

The fact that Hillary Clinton treats governing like solving an algebra problem is probably the strongest argument against her candidacy. Changing our health care system or invading and occupying Iraq is a helluva lot more complicated than 'Solve for X'.

Healthcare:

What do you think has a better chance of getting out of Congress. A plan with mandates or a plan without?

A related question, which do you think can get hammered harder in the general election?

What blah said. It's not meant to be a rational argument. It's meant to appeal to ingrained cultural prejudices which say that someone who's a slick talker must be trying to con you.

This is Rovian judo, pure & simple: attack someone for their perceived strength. Obama gives good speeches, therefore giving speeches is bad.

Exactly right, and may I add that purpose of this particular maneuver is to bait Obama into adopting the frame of this argument.

If someone from Obama's team were to make a counterclaim here, it would probably be something along the lines of "We don't just make speeches, we have policy proposals too!"

While factually accurate, such a claim would have the effect of (1) reinforcing the perception of Clinton as the candidate of substantive policy and (2) legitimize the question of whether Obama has any substantive policies as an acceptable subject for debate.

Rather than debating the merits of the two policies, the conversation turns into an argument of whether Obama can govern as well as Clinton could, and reinforcing Clinton's frame and forcing Obama to play catchup. This is how losers lose.

The smart move, of course, is to ignore the frame shift and keep the conversation focused on change, or whatever the hell else the Obama campaign wants to talk about. Of course, since political consultants tend to be pretty jumpy, especially on the Democratic side, we'll have to see whether they have the patience to play the smart hand.

So maybe that means that she and hubby Bill don't mind giving all that money that he's been making on the speech circuit to charity or something?

Nah - I think that money's already been loaned to her campaign. Speeches don't put food on the table, but they do let you run attack ads!!!

I'm voting for Obama all day long and twice on sundays, but I think StillUndecided and blah are both right.

People like BHO because he gives great speeches. She's saying: that alone is not enough of a reason to vote for someone.

I happen to think she's wrong. We desperately need a leader who makes us see the stars again, even at the cost of some policy depth...but there's nothing out-of-bounds, weird, or nonsensical about HRC's point.

I wish Obama had agreed to a debate just so he could asked what the hell she's talking about.

Al Giordano did the math this morning on how Clinton's speeches do put food on the table.

Does Hillary seriously have a plan to put food on your table and gas in your tank? I sincerely hope not. She should know better than to imply otherwise.

It's wrong to lie to people who might want government gasoline. It's politically tone deaf to alienate moderates and independents, who are uniquely predisposed to give Democrats a second look this time, with talk of handing out free food and gas. It would be dumb to actually subsidize food, which is oversubsidized and overabundant already, and triple dumb to subsidize gasoline in light of global warming.

Hillary is very smart and should know better. I wish her speechwriters could say the same.

Bill Clinton's speech in Oklahoma City following the bombing of the federal courthouse is viewed by some of his strongest supporters as the "turning point" in his presidency. Look at the Nigel Hamilton book and see what Stephanopoulos, Panetta, Shalala and others had to say. In light of this (not to mention some of the other things noted here), how in the world can Hillary and Bill criticize Obama in this way with a straight face? What a continuing disappointment.

Here's a link to Senator Obama responding in Milwaukee to that very quote from Senator Clinton:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVPIixS2HMU

Let me just express my admiration of Matt and most of the previous twenty-three commenters for having the obsessive stamina to parse what's got to be (so far) the emptiest piece of rhetoric of the 2008 campaign.

Any American voters who are so hopelessly, utterly undiscerning as to be actually swayed (however slightly) by the absolutely meaningless phrase "My opponent gives speeches. I offer solutions" are probably big Hillary supporters already anyway.

I have to say, it's encouraging to me that the most potent attacks against Obama at this point seem to be: (a) he's relatively young, (b) he's a talented speaker, and (c) he has ardent supporters. I'll wager that beats old, dull, and uninspiring in the primary and the general.

I, for one, would like to see Hillary's tax returns in order to find out exactly how much food it's put on the Clinton table. Alas, she refuses to release them.

HRC has a point. Have any of you looked closely at Obama's policy positions? He wants to double the minimum wage and index it to inflation. Does that make sense to anybody?


SPEECHES BAD! ARRRRGGH!

Not to get too (un) P.C. here, but is attacking Obama for his oratory skills part of a broader race-based frame trying to depict Obama as a jive-talking Negro? Just with all the drug and "roll the dice" talk we were getting about a month ago from Clinton's camp, it's hard to give up old worries.

You know what else doesn't put food on the table? Equations! Next time you're hungry, why don't you try to eat some a them fancy math you young folks like, you and your pointy head friends!

I'll wager that beats old, dull, and uninspiring

These words cannot be said enough.

HRC has a point. Have any of you looked closely at Obama's policy positions? He wants to double the minimum wage and index it to inflation. Does that make sense to anybody?

True. If Hillary had said, "My opponent wants to double the minimum wage and index it to inflation," instead of "My opponent gives speeches. I offer solutions," this entire thread wouldn't even exist. What's your point?

I'm considering voting Obama in the primary and would definitely vote for him in the general.

But anybody who thinks "substance over speeches" is a weaker talking point than "yes we can" is not objective.

From the comments thus far, it seems no one here finds it objectionable for a politician to imply that politicians doing stuff does "put food on our table", "fill our gas tank", "fill our prescriptions", etc. It has nothing to do with us going to our jobs and earning a living; these things come from Hillary Clinton and people like her doing nice things for us. That aspect of her statement is ok, I take it. Interesting.

Yeah! What Sonic Charmer said! By commenting on this list about what Hillary Clinton said instead of reading off another stale list of crazy libertarian and free market fundamentalist nonsense, obviously all y'all think you just sit on your hind ends and let the government deliver free pizzas and massages to you whenever you want! Interesting.

anybody who thinks "substance over speeches" is a weaker talking point than "yes we can" is not objective.

I think you have confused "campaign slogan" with "talking point."

Interestingly, the official campaign slogan of James K. Polk in 1844 was "Reannexation of Texas and reoccupation of Oregon--" the only example I can discover of a policy point actually used as a Presidential campaign slogan. Polk won the election with it.

You're being too logical, MY.

This is red meat to the Hillary spammers who go around posting stuff calling Obama "empty" and taunting his voters by calling them "cultists."

They think it might stick, and so does she.

The fact that it's illogical, and on it's own, substance-free (making it hypocritical) won't stop them, and her.

But they're in desperation mode. Anyway - whatever you do, don't change your prediction, please. Thanks.

And, Still Undecided, "yes we can" is not a talking point, it's just a slogan. Every campaign has them. And Obama's has the extra bonus of being true. He can win.

Whereas Hillary's "Ready on Day One" is, well, not true, being as she's already had to "loan" herself $5million, fire her campaign manager, etc... Basically she's managing a mini-disaster.

Maybe after Obama's elected, she can appoint her to head FEMA.

What makes you think she didn't make specific criticisms? Its a four sentence excerpt of a speech. Hang her!

Make that he can appoint her...

I'm not ready for day one, either. But never claimed to be.

Clinton is full of substance, like voting for the Iraq War and trying to ban pixelated boobs in video games.

If one of Hilary's "solutions" is more vegan strip joints, I am so on board.

Interesting. I thought "Yes We Can" was meant to be something more than a glib catch phrase. My mistake.

Still Undecided,

I would obviously like you to vote for Obama.

But, frankly, from reading your comments, it seems that Obama's message and policy proposals (like the living wage) really irritate you. At the same time, you appear to regard most or all criticisms of Hillary illegitimate. That pattern makes a lot of sense for a Hillary supporter, not so much for an undecided voter.

So I guess I'd suggest that maybe Hillary really is your candidate.

(I'd love to persuade you otherwise, but . . . this is a comment thread and I'm a realist.)

Edit: 'the fact that he is an -absurdly- better orator.'

Southpaw: I would love to hear the case for a huge jump in the minimum wage. Would be more useful than Hillary bashing. Please make it.

Matt you're missing the point.

It's not about facts, about sensibility, about reality, it's all about perception. The "speeches don't" line is about driving perception, period. I guarantee it's been focus tested and proven to work.

No wonder "progressives" get waxed by Republicans, you guys think it's about reality. Roger Ailes read McLuhan, did any of you?

Still Undecided,

Where did he say he wanted to double the minimum wage? I didn't see a link and can't find anything saying that.

Matt, you are seriously perplexed? Clinton gives shitty speeches that couldn't motivate a drowning man to a liferaft. Look no further. That's why speeches are bad. Words are not action! It takes a president to sign a bill into law! My handwriting is really great! Actually she didn't even make the last point.

Drosz: Obama wants to raise the minimum to a ''living wage". Too hard to get a link from my phone but I'm sure others will confirm that. I guess that would be roughly doubling it. That would have to be a huge inflationary stress and squeeze the hell out of business owners, wouldn't it?

Southpaw: I would love to hear the case for a huge jump in the minimum wage. Would be more useful than Hillary bashing. Please make it.

Obama:


Raise the Minimum Wage: Barack Obama will raise the minimum wage, index it to inflation and increase the Earned Income Tax Credit to make sure that full-time workers earn a living wage that allows them to raise their families and pay for basic needs.

Along with drosz, I haven't seen Obama promise to double the minimum wage, so I'll wait for a link on that one. I do think there's a pretty strong case that the minimum wage should put the wage-earner above the federal poverty level.

And indexing the minimum wage to inflation just seems like common sense. In any serious economic discussion, we recognize that 2008 dollars are different from, say, 1997 dollars. In other words, adjusting for inflation is a widely accepted method for making a dollar figure from the past comparable to a dollar figure in the present. Why shouldn't we do that for whatever figure we set for the minimum wage as time marches forward?

Actually, if you count Obama's time in the Illinois State legislature, he's got more legislative experience than Clinton.

Still undecided,

I see no problem with indexing it to inflation, but I would agree doubling it would go a bit far. People shouldn't be making just the minimum wage after working at a job for a reasonable amount of time. The minimum wage should be a starting point and most businesses give incremental, automatic raises anyway. I feel for some businesses as personnel costs are tough to handle, though. I would think the index solution is good compromise.

Yeah, the doubling part would be problematic if it is actually part of the proposal, but would be nowhere near as insane as Clinton's idea of freezing interest rates for five years. In addition, it could also be a negotiating tactic in which Obama could say "double," Congressional Republicans would say "raise only by 1.1" and Congressional Democrats and Obama could get legislation raising it by 1.5 times the current minimum wage or whatever.

People fall for this stuff. They lap it up.

It's rapidly becoming clear that the American public can't be trusted with democracy. We don't deserve Obama.

People fall for this stuff because it is often true. That is, if you're not that attractive you might work harder in school to be the "smart" kid etc.--and people WANT it to be true.

I have no trouble believing most people can and would be jealous/off put by someone who was seen as a wealthy, smart, cool and nice. "It's just not fair! Why does he get 4/4 and I get 1/4?! We'll teach him--let's vote for 2/4 lady!"

Hey, Matt -- any chance you'd consider censoring the sexist epithets as well? I mean, I'm no Hillary fan myself. But it's not OK to call her an "uptight bitch," (as Warden did) and it's weird that a bunch of leftists would let that pass without comment.

IUt's official: Hillary is gunning for the votes of people who were seduced by the false choices of George W. Bush.

All Obama needs to do is to point out how much money Bill has made giving pretty speeches, and this pathetic meme will be killed.

Obama should run an add reminding everyone how sleazy and awful the clintons really are. they say the press is tough on them. bullshit. they are corrupt and sleazy to the core. just look at how pathetic bill clinton looks. sleazy corrupt cracker.

Anne: "it's weird that a bunch of leftists would let that pass without comment."

Clearly Anne you haven't spent much time reading blog comment sections.

Clinton's say something=worst possible interpretation of comment should be assumed.

Obama supporters, upset at those vile Clinton attacks, and respond with "bitch"=OK.

I know, not really, but it certainly is interesting no one else rebuked that comment and noted its inappropriatness until hours later. Here in the progressive blogosphere.


As a European Social Democrat the real deal breaker with Obama is that his health care plan does not cut it. If it does not cover everybody it just is not worth squat. It really is about covering everybody or not at all. MY's worries about foreign policy are less important in my view because I believe that both candidates will be able to communicate and work with the rest of the world. Realpolitik will prevail. What is important is to ween the American people of the notion that Government is only good for fighting wars...

Then again, I don't have a say in this fight, so this is just my 0.02 €...

This is a debt attack by Hillary, hitting Obama on one of his perceived weaknesses, and, as others have said, shoring up her own base at the same time.

Thing is: If Obama starts to get wonky, some of the "flair" will go out of his speeches. If he doesn't, it reinforces the Clinton message.

Nice to see Hillary on the attack. The press is also about due for a "Hillary comes back" narrative.

RDJonsson

Clinton's plan is not offering universal healthcare. Mandates give the illusion of universality but they are in fact not.

I know, not really, but it certainly is interesting no one else rebuked that comment and noted its inappropriatness until hours later. Here in the progressive blogosphere.

I try not to feed the trolls . . .

"He (Obama) wants to double the minimum wage and index it to inflation. Does that make sense to anybody?"

Makes sense to me, and I'm a small business owner.

As for the basic fuss, if your opponent is a great speaker, you minimize the importance of speaking. Duh. Nothing Rovian there. Just regular old politics. Some people don't like a silver-tongued politician, just as some poeple are allergic to salesmen. Obviously Hillary will make an appeal to those people. She isn't stupid.

Personally I don't much care for Obama's style. I'm suspicious of all politicians. I don't want to emotonally attach to my president. I don't want to be inspired. I just want to be well served.

Hillary's attack is therefore fine by me. But... Obama didn't vote for the AUMF or Kyl-Lieberman, Hillary did, and won't admit her mistake. Sorry, Hillary. You lost me on substance, not style.

Obama has an opportunity to show that he can do more than make inspiring speeches. John Githongo argues in today's FT that Obama is uniquely positioned to mediate the disaster in Kenya: "Obama could help put out the fire in Kenya".

Micheline:

I admit that I have not read up on all the intricate details on each health care plan, but to me the difference between mandates and offering incentives makes a world of difference. The incentives approach will inevitably lead to incentives to healty people to opt out of the risk pool. And all kinds of adverse selection and free rider problems ensue. Mandatory insurance, on the other hand is only a half-way decent compromise, but it will cover most people, and it seems that it is (by far, in my book) the least bad of two flawed options.

But my view is obviously irreparably tainted by my trust in universal coverage where I live.

I'd like to add that the spirited arguments going on in your democratic process to elect a new President is really inspiring. I'm just an interested bystander...

Churchill gave a mean speech too. The horrid venality of Bill & Hill is really starting to show. They already counted the mega-mega millions residence at 1600 Pennsylvania would bring before the impudent darkie spoiled the party. Oh, and hedge fund wunderkind Chelsea too. Big Dollar signs were pinwheeling in her eyes too.

RDJonsson, since neither plan is a single payer plan, there is not much difference between them. Auto insurance is mandatory here too and yet people drive without it. The idea of garnishing people's wages to force them to pay into a health plan will just not sell to a middle class already financially burdened.

Hillary Clinton is trying to be Karl Rove and she's failing at it. She's not going to fool a lot of people talking to Democrats this way. People are going to listen to his speeches or read something about him and see for themselves that he's got a proposal. There aren't enough dumb schmucks voting in the primaries for Hillary to make up the difference with this shit.

I applaud her willingness to fight for things tooth-and-nail, but this kind of behavior in the campaign makes me lose confidence in her and makes me doubt she was such a great choice to support to begin with. She needs to respond to Obama's catching up on her in a more creative way.

So TomTom if you increase payroll without increasing staff, how do make up the expense? Or do you just eat the difference because you're a nice guy?

Obama's plan is not thought out. He's getting a free ride.

I wrote somewhere recently (maybe it was on this blog) that a problem with Hillary's campaign was that she should have been more demagogic and less policy-nitty-gritty. But I meant that she should be more like Obama, not more like Adolf Hitler.

If you're smart and you know policy well, it can be easy to run to policy and try to use it to make up the difference. But when what you need is a little of the magic touch, you've got to acknowledge it and work at it, even if it may be a little hard work for you and a little different way of thinking for you. It's not so hard to capture people's imaginations, really, but you don't do it with a figures-and-policy lecture.

She's appealing to a certain perception that Obama only makes feel-good speeches and doesn't offer any policy solutions. I have a feeling this perception is widely held; accordingly, this appeal might resonate with quite a few people beyond her dedicated base of supporters.

Kinda like the way it resonated as a widely held view in Virgina and Maryland? How about Washington, Nebraska, and Louisiana? Perhaps Connecticut, Maine, Missouri, and Illinois? Shall I go on?

It's not a rational argument meant to be parsed. It's an emotional appeal to any underlying doubts about Obama - that he is some slick, glib speaker who has a silver tongue but not enough experience or substance to be President.

I think Hillary's message will eventually be seen to have been effective. With about 40% of the voters.

"Not to get too (un) P.C. here, but is attacking Obama for his oratory skills part of a broader race-based frame trying to depict Obama as a jive-talking Negro?"

I suspect so, since I've made that argument - or more precisely the argument that Obama is a "slick-talking black guy" for some time now.

Of course, there's nothing wrong with being articulate and clever - IF you can back it up - which he can't in the area of foreign policy, unfortunately. But then, neither can Clinton back her FP up. And she isn't even clever.

The underlying implication of her statement that Obama is just "too black" will resonate with some people, though.

But the way she stated it, it's brain dead. She's just whining here.

Of course, there's nothing wrong with being articulate and clever - IF you can back it up - which he can't in the area of foreign policy.

Because we are Americans, nearly all Men who have been sent to the White House are structurally weak, on "foreign policy." In my lifetime, the only person to take the office that was not was possibly George H.W. Bush (41).

There is ZERO correlation in the American Presidential experience between perceived "foreign policy" credentials upon entrance to the office, and, actual governance. There appears to be some correlation however to intelligence. Some correlation. Not alot.

Obama should run an ad, reminding everyone how sleazy and awful the clintons really are.

The Clintons are now running a daily advertisement against--themselves. Let them spend their own money, on the effort.

Remember, her trajectory is nearly the same in every state she vigorously contests. She goes from very high numbers down into the mid to low 40's.

southpaw: "I try not to feed the trolls . . ."

Very precious, southpaw, but given the fact I post here semi-regularly, and don't hide my HRC bias, I'm not sure "troll" really fits.

Unless of course, HRC supporter=troll, is your definition.

Which, if true, proves my earlier point.

As a European Social Democrat the real deal breaker with Obama is that his health care plan does not cut it. If it does not cover everybody it just is not worth squat. It really is about covering everybody or not at all.

As a European, did you study Economics?

The difference between Obama's and Hillary's approach is exclusively one of how they each wish to handle externalities. In other words, it's a respectable disagreement that signifies no distinct advantage to either plan.

You could find a serious, graduate-level seminar that made the case for either, with a rich discussion attending each argument.

Micheline: "Clinton's plan is not offering universal healthcare. Mandates give the illusion of universality but they are in fact not."

I assume you're an Obama supporter. Is he for single-payer?

The mandate has to be somewhere in the system to be universal. Correct?

Remember, her trajectory is nearly the same in every state she vigorously contests. She goes from very high numbers down into the mid to low 40's.

Well, yes. Which is why I find it so amusing that people are shockingly trotting out those polls from Ohio and Pennsylvania. Does anyone really think that she'll win Ohio--much less any state in the near future--by 17 points?

I have nothing against the Clintons, but I'm not sure how wise it would be for them to go negative at this point. The last time they did that, it backfired in a huge way (i.e., South Carolina). That isn't to say that her criticisms of Obama are illegitimate--it just comes off as a tad desperate.

Following Henri at 12:07: My understanding is that Obama wants to subsidize you to buy into the system. HRC wants to penalize you if you don't buy into the system. Assuming the magnitudes are similar, are these two plans quite so different?

Now, if Hillary really followed through on her threat to garnish contributions from wages, like with Social Security, that's a whole 'nother level.


Very precious, southpaw, but given the fact I post here semi-regularly, and don't hide my HRC bias, I'm not sure "troll" really fits.

I wasn't talking about you, fella.

You were asking why no one rebuked the patently offensive comment upthread, and the reason I gave is why I didn't.

You are not a troll. Warden is. Your comments are fine and a valuable addition, though I often disagree. His comment is loathsome. Friends?

Absolutely, I take you at your word, but in my defense a direct quote from me, followed by the 'troll' comment, may lead to a misunderstanding, if you don't quote/reference that jerk I was talking about.

By the way, Warden, you're an asshole we all hate. Yes we can!

I'd like to respond a minute to the claim up-thread at that "yes we can" is simply a slogan, or an empty talking point. It's neither. It's actually just a short-hand way of capturing Obama's broader argument for how large social, political, or infrastructural change has been effected in American history. Look at how he first debuted the "slogan":

For when we have faced down impossible odds, when we've been told we're not ready or that we shouldn't try or that we can't, generations of Americans have responded with a simple creed that sums up the spirit of a people: Yes, we can. Yes, we can. Yes, we can.

It was a creed written into the founding documents that declared the destiny of a nation: Yes, we can.

It was whispered by slaves and abolitionists as they blazed a trail towards freedom through the darkest of nights: Yes, we can.

It was sung by immigrants as they struck out from distant shores and pioneers who pushed westward against an unforgiving wilderness: Yes, we can.

It was the call of workers who organized, women who reached for the ballot, a president who chose the moon as our new frontier, and a king who took us to the mountaintop and pointed the way to the promised land: Yes, we can, to justice and equality.

Yes, we can, to opportunity and prosperity. Yes, we can heal this nation. Yes, we can repair this world. Yes, we can.

Just because he dresses it up with flowery language and uses meter and inflection to let it really sing doesn't mean this isn't an actual, substantive argument. It's pretty straight-forward and obvious:

-We have huge challenges ahead of us, from the Iraq War, Global Warming, health care [insert other major issue here]

-Rabid partisanship in Washington is a major obstacle to resolving these problems.

-Throughout American history, when confronted with foundational problems like this, it's taken massive willpower to overcome, but in the end, it was precisely the exercise of the will of the people that did overcome.

When the colonies lived under tyranny? It was their social and political will that liberated them, not some 10-point plan.

Abolitionism and then the civil rights acts? Achieved because people marched in the streets, got themselves arrested and killed, etc, but their will never faltered.

Etc etc (I did just quote it)

Basically, it took a massive movement of people and exercise of will to found our gov't, to keep our country together when slavery threatened to rip it apart, to change social attitudes towards African-Americans and change our laws to reflect that, same with women, and on and on.

And if we want to change the political atmosphere in Washington to one more conducive to actually solving problems, we'll have to once-again organize in massive numbers and exercise our social will. Cultural changes have been created before by huge numbers of people organizing, this wouldn't be new. And that if we fail to do this, all our best plans, no matter how well-intentioned and well-thought-out, will fail, eaten up by the partisan machines in DC.

It's a message that both captures the general population's frustration with Washington and politicians in general and inspires in people the belief that something better awaits them. Further, it lets them feel like they are apart of the change they want, giving them ownership of the campaign.

Conversely, let's look at the assumptions under Hillary's talking point. She offers "solutions". So, like Obama, she knows you're worried about isolated problems X, Y, and Z. And the way you fix those? By producing detailed plans, and then electing her to office, so she'll enact those plans. That's it. That's her pitch. Nothing is wrong with our political system or society, really; we're just short on good plans and competent, technocratic leaders. Elect her, problem solved, because she's a competent technocrat! Putting aside the point that the current state of her campaign seriously calls into question her competency as a manager, I have to ask: is there any reason why her message doesn't resonate?

Obama: if we want to actually make progress, we need to crush the institutional and cultural barriers via the sheer force of our will.

Clinton: if we want to make progress, elect me cause I have lots of detailed plans.

Funny thing. Clinton says a mandate is the absolutely key part of her health care plan. But in her supposedly comprehensive policy papers, this is the entirely of what she has to say about how said mandate will be enforced:

Oh, she doesn't propose any money for enforcement, either.

Yes, she just assumes a magical enforceement plan that would cost no money and be 100% effective.

And a pony.


I'd like to chime in on the "Warden/bitch" comment too, 2 things:

1-I didn't find that to be particularly misogynistic. Maybe I'm just tone-deaf here, but I don't think it'd be man-hating for a woman to remark about Rudy that he's, say, a prick, an ass-hole, a dick head, a faux-tough-guy, etc. In fact, there are a plethora of insults that either refer to the male genitalia or his man-hood in some way or another that are totally inbounds, no? And yes, granted, men do not have a history of being oppressed, nor do they face the countless institutional barriers that women still face simply because they are women. There is still definitely a pervasive misogynistic undertone through much of modern American society. However, that doesn't change the fact that there are plenty of public officials we do not like for various character-traits they hold, and I don't find the word "bitch" to be a particularly or remarkably sexist way of describing that feeling.

2-That being said, the name-calling in general is infantile and unproductive. If you have a problem with a candidate's attitude or approach or character, better to explain the particular character trait and cite factual occurrences as to why you think such-and-such politician has such-and-such character trait than to simply right him/her off as a "bitch" or a "prick" or whatever else. And certainly, Warden might not have done that cause he's a troll, or even a sexist troll at that. But I just don't think we just knee-jerk into the sexism call here; there's plenty of grounds to tell him to fuck off just for the name-calling, and raising the sexism issue often, IMO, ends up being about as productive as the insult itself.

Just my .02

aretino: "Yes, she just assumes a magical enforceement plan that would cost no money and be 100% effective.

And a pony."

As opposed to the candidate that doesn't have a universal health care plan.

No, it will cost money, and a great bit of political capital. Which is why she is running for president on a universal plan.

The issue is, for those who care about this issue truly, is how do you get to universiality?

Choices: Single-payer, or empoloyer/individual mandate?

Or neither (the current Obama position) which is a mandate for.....the status quo.

arentino:

I'll add the following data points:

-Effective, strongly-enforced and well-tracked mandates still show something like 2% of the population uncovered (in Europe). In the U.S., that would mean roughly 6 million people without coverage. So what is a quantitative difference (% uncovered) has been dishonestly cast as a qualitative difference, and then used by intellectually dishonest analysts as a demagogic bludgeon. Sweet. And Krugman then has the nerve to be upset about demagoguery coming the other way? ROFL

-But we're not even comparing a non-mandate plan to one with a theoretically strongly-enforced and well-tracked mandate. We're comparing a non-mandate plan to a plan with a symbolic mandate. Of course, symbolic mandates show no actual efficacy at all. As such, to the extent there is a difference, qualitative or quantitative, between the two plans, it will be based on how accessible the gov't-run option is, how effective the cost-control regulations are, the amount of money put up front for subsidies, etc etc. On those metrics, more than a few wonks have suggested Obama's plan is better on the merits, but at this point you're really getting into the weeds anyway since none of that is likely to survive intact through the Congress.

Still, the point is, in a theoretical, abstract debate between mandates and non-mandates, we're talking about the difference between 6 million uncovered and maybe 15 million uncovered. Near-universal and very-near-universal, but neither is actually, you know, universal.

But those aren't the options we're being offered. We're being offered a debate between a near-universal plan and another near-universal plan that also says "mandate" in it but doesn't really have one. Sweet.

And yet we pretend it is a real mandate in there, and that mandates achieve a level of coverage they actually do not, and then pretend like that is a real, substantial discussion, b/c we're the enlightened left and not a bunch of partisans trying to bludgeon into submission anyone who isn't on board with our exact platform.

The issue is, for those who care about this issue truly, is how do you get to universiality?

Choices: Single-payer, or empoloyer/individual mandate?

The problem that you do not seem to grasp is that individual and employer mandates do not actually get you to universality.

I'm not sure I fully understand the two health care proposals, but I think it boils down to this: Clinton would use the force of government to make us all buy into the insurance industry as deliverer of health care; Obama would create a public health care alternative to private insurance. Thus Clinton's plan will perpetuate the single wrongest thing with health care in America, the insurance company profit margin that contributes no health care and which must always be maximized. Obama's plan would provide the ability to choses a much needed alternative to insurance companies, and this, if adopted by the middle class, could eventually lead to the only real solution - single payer.

Well, to be fair, orangutan, Clinton's plan also creates a public option to buy into.

But yes, that is also one of the major draw-backs of a mandate: if the mandate survives the legislative process, but the hacks bought-and-paid-for by the insurance company in Congress manage to gut the public option or kill the subsidies or whatever, then all you end up is funneling corporate welfare to the insurance industry through the tax payer. It'd be, in the end, taxing upper-middle class citizens to send their money to lower-middle and impoverished citizens who would then be mandated to give that money to the insurance companies.

sweet.

Also, of course, if your regulations don't work quite right or your subsidies aren't quite enough, you end up mandating people to buy something they can't necessarily afford, which will likely only create more animus towards gov't and Washington. When you're a progressive, and as such the idea that you can achieve good works through gov't is fundamental, it's pretty important to make sure you're not gonna be generating feelings of antipathy towards gov't, you know? It was exactly those knee-jerk rejections of bureaucratic incompetence that lead to the embrace of Reagan's individualism.

And cultural changes like that matter. We've been trapped in a debate who's terms make winning impossible for us, because the terms were set 28 years ago and we haven't been able to budge them at all. You want to get the country behind progressive ideas, the first thing you need to do is get the country believing in the idea of shared responsibility to the community, and trusting the gov't to actually positively impact their lives.

A 10-point plan ain't gonna cut it.

There will never be a "single-payer" system for all Americans. Maybe for 99% of us, if Democrats get their way. For those of us who currently have health insurance, our health care under a single-payer system will probably be similar to what a uninsured American receives today, i.e., it will be worse. The top 1% won't wait in line for Canadian-style health care like the rest of us; they will pay out-of-pocket for concierge-level service from the country's best physicians, while we will wait to get seen by the lifers at the National Health Service.

With a single-payer system, entitlement spending will comprise more than half of all federal spending, and to restrain costs, the government will have to start rationing care. Health care delayed is health care denied, and those of us who need expensive procedures will have to wait for them, or die before our turn comes up. The top 1% won't wait.