I just heard David Tyree on CBS news attributing his astounding catch to . . . God. I guess it's not really my place to say, but I always find this idea that God is intervening in the big game sort of bizarre. Beyond the theological implications, it's sort of like saying the games are all rigged.
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The God Factor
04 Feb 2008 06:58 pm
Comments (92)
In 20 years he'll admit that he made the catch, just like Maradona admitted that it was his hand not God's that scored the goal.
So the moral is that God hates Rodney Harrison?
God, being God, had the Giants and the under yesterday - so of course he helped Tyree pin that football to his helmet.
So is this catch going to get a nickname? Sounds like Tyree is thinking Immaculate Reception II
What are we, letting David Brenner guest-post?
Next: Matt's penetrating thoughts on the badness of airline food.
(I kid because I love!)
Everyone hates Rodney Harrison.
God missed the game, he was working an Australian Rules Football game down under.
Damned ego-centric Americans!
Which God?
Worse, every high school student in Texas thinks that God takes a personal interest in the fortunes of his school's football team (but not, apparently, of its opponent).
I think those prayers before games smack of idolatry or taking God's name in vain or something, but that's just me, I guess.
I can buy that God hates Bill Belichick, or, at the very least, was starting to get super annoyed by Tom Brady.
Worse, every high school student in Texas thinks that God takes a personal interest in the fortunes of his school's football team (but not, apparently, of its opponent).
I think those prayers before games smack of idolatry or taking God's name in vain or something, but that's just me, I guess.
Sorry for that double.
I know what happened: as Tyree caught it between his hand and his helmet, god applied a special layer of glue, attaching the ball temporarily.
Could it be that god hates Boston? Does this mean the Celtics are going to start losing?
All those atheists on the Patriots got what they deserve!
What explains Buddhist Tiger Woods' success??
Re "I always find this idea that God is intervening in the big game sort of bizarre. Beyond the theological implications, it's sort of like saying the games are all rigged. "
--------
The Mafia --and their bishop who's all mobbed up -- says that's not a bug, that's a feature.
Just once I'd like to hear god botherers like Tyree say "Well, God let us down today. We were driving for the winning score and He just didn't get it done". Only crediting Him with victories but having Him mysteriously disappear during losses might be the "theological implications" that MY was referring to.
God never listens to what I say
God never listens to what I say
So very, so very hard
And you don't get a refund
When you over-pray
I slipped the big G a c-note and asked him to give the Giants the hook-up.
As Andruw pointed out, if there is a God, he undoubtedly hates Rodney Harrison. He has got to be the most hateable player in the league.
"Could it be that god hates Boston? Does this mean the Celtics are going to start losing"
Posted by tyler
No.
In fact God just made Chris Wallace trade Pau! to the Lakers for some trinkets so we can see a Lakers/Celtics Finals, aka, David Stern's (and, um, my) dream.
Just once I'd like to hear god botherers like Tyree say "Well, God let us down today. We were driving for the winning score and He just didn't get it done". Only crediting Him with victories but having Him mysteriously disappear during losses might be the "theological implications" that MY was referring to.
Actually, a "true Christian" in that situation would probably say something like this: "Our loss must have been God's will...it is our job to pray and learn from it" or "God was punishing us for our pride" (which could be equally infuriating to some)
Just once, I'd love to hear a journalist ask the obvious follow-up: "so why do you think that god decided to give the game to the giants and not to the patriots?"
The answer (or silence) would be priceless.
I guess it's not really my place to say, but...
...but why should that stop you?
This provides a little background. I don't agree with his theological outlook on life or sports, but given his particular circumstances maybe you could've passed up the opportunity to sneer.
really dude? get over yourself.
saying 'sorry for that double' just makes it a triple.
How does he know it was God?
Satan is the one running all the bookies...
Right?
Right?
There was a great Sportspickle article once where Kurt Warner blamed God for his interceptions (Sportspickle is sort of like The Onion, but just for sports).
There was also a Will Ferrell SNL sketch where he was a golfer and commented how he didn't know what Jesus was thinking when he let him screw up the 9th hole.
Also, if God hates Boston, he's got a strange way of showing in since about 2001.
Well, you know, according to John Calvin, EVERYTHING'S rigged in advance -- including whether you are saved or damned. (God, it seems, amuses himself by damning people.) Compared to this theology -- which millions of people once firmly believed, and a surprising number still believe -- what's a measly football game?
Sigh. All Tyree means is we should
well, maybe life is rigged.
If an omnipotent, omniscient God created the universe and set it in motion, then He is responsible for all things, including Tyree's amazing catch. Indeed, He knew it would transpire from the Beginning.
There was that so hard?
Oh, also, a supreme being, whose existence is beyond time and space, does not place wagers. He doesn't need to.
I didn't hear Tyree's words, but I think this kind of criticism is often misplaced. What players usually mean is that they owe their ability to succeed to God, not that God actually has a preference and is intervening in the outcome of the game.
There's something unseemly about a secular Jewish lefty -- a Harvard Magna Cum Laude philosophy grad at that -- making fun of a black athlete's religious statement. What's next, you're going to make fun of Tyree saying that his mother who passed away in December is his angel up in heaven looking down on him? Must you begrudge the blacks the comforts of their faith?
The funny thing is that this is how most secular lefties really feel about black religious faith. Doesn't stop your candidates from shilling for votes in black churches though.
I think those prayers before games smack of idolatry or taking God's name in vain or something, but that's just me, I guess.
No team I've ever heard of prays for victory before the game. It's invariably the Lord's Prayer perhaps with something added in about noone getting injured too badly. How is that idolatrous?
Way to miss the fucking point. When acclaimed athletes or musicians give credit to God, they're being modest. They are just recognizing their achievements are possible because they were blessed with special talents or lucky breaks or gifted mentors, that their success is due to something other than their own awesomeness.
Beyond that, Tyree's mother died less than two months ago. Clearly his religious faith is how he's able to keep going even as he grieves, so I hardly think it kind to mock the man.
Tyree is black?
Everything was going fine until God made Tony Romo fly off to Mexico with Jessica Simpson.
But as the good book says, there are bigger deals to come...
What the fuck does this have to do with race? Plenty of white athletes say the same stupid shit and get mocked for it.
Anyway, the article that JB linked to has the following subhead, which I suspect is some headline-writer's idea of parody. It's too perfect: "Giants Player Overcame Life Obstacles Before Acrobatic Catch"
If an omnipotent, omniscient God created the universe and set it in motion, then He is responsible for all things, including Tyree's amazing catch. Indeed, He knew it would transpire from the Beginning.
Yeah, but who created Him?
See
"The Real Meaning of 'Anchor Baby'"
at
Rudely Stamped
Michael Blaine
www.rudelystamped.blogspot.com
Saying "saying 'sorry for that double' just makes it a triple" just makes it a quadruple.
And yes, this makes it a quintuple.
I think those prayers before games smack of idolatry or taking God's name in vain or something, but that's just me, I guess.
No team I've ever heard of prays for victory before the game. It's invariably the Lord's Prayer perhaps with something added in about noone getting injured too badly. How is that idolatrous?
My experience is different from yours.
No one created God, he is uncreated, and uncaused. That's his basic predicate that makes Him different from everything else.
I was reminded of this not long ago when I saw Edward Cardinal Egan of New York City participating in the pep rally for the Yankees, who were going into the World Series. During the invocation, he offered a prayer for the team's victory. Surely, considering what happened in New York, the city needs every prayer it gets. But does God really care who wins baseball games? Or football games, or any sporting event?
Chaplains, college coaches, high school coaches in many sports think it's okay to pray for victory, doing so with their players or with crowds.
http://www.beliefnet.com/story/92/story_9238_1.html
This is what I think goes on all the time.
Saying "saying 'sorry for that double' just makes it a triple" just makes it a quadruple.
And yes, this makes it a quintuple.
Well, I thought about it and opted to show that I was a repentant jerk rather than an unthinking jerk and that it was worth another line. But sometimes I just say the hell with it. A tough choice, especially with the kvetching that goes on around here. Sextuple.
When acclaimed athletes or musicians give credit to God, they're being modest.
There is nothing modest about believing that an omniscient deity personally picked you to become rich and successful.
Why doesn't anyone ever thank God for burning alive innocent babies caught up as collateral damage when the U.S. Air Force bombs their cities? Why not thank God when children are maimed during al Qaeda suicide bomb attacks on their neighborhoods? After all, it's part of the magnificent plan that will eventually lead to The Rapture.
I'm sure God has a good reason but it seems evil to this pathetic mortal. I'm told that without that "evil" we wouldn't appreciate the beautiful wonder of "good". But I just can't seem to get square how all that works out. Indicates a failure of my faith I suppose.
"I can buy that God hates Bill Belichick, or, at the very least, was starting to get super annoyed by Tom Brady."
Yep. My god is a jealous god.
"No one created God, he is uncreated, and uncaused."
Yes. This is generally true of things that don't exist.
Curt M-
Westboro Baptist Church, my man. They thank God for doing nasty things all the time. Assholes, but at least they are theologically consistent assholes.
Um, folks, the reason why athletes thank God on television is because evangelicals have encouraged them to prosletyze when a camera is pointed at them.
And yes, when athletes stop saying "I'd like to thank God for keeping us safe out there" and start saying "I'd like to thank God for helping me make that catch", they are being extremely egotistical. God, if She exists, has more important things to worry about than the Super Bowl.
Go talk to my father, the military history buff, who thinks lucky breaks in Midway and Gettysburg prove that God is on the side of the United States. The theological problems are similar even if WWII is slightly more important (and more of interest to God, I guess) than the Super Bowl.
I'm happy to say that God causes everything to happen, good and bad, or God is involved when something supernatural happens (if Jesus appeared on the field, grabbed the ball and ran to the end zone). Otherwise, forget it.
If there is no God, then the universe was uncreated and uncaused, therefore ...
Listen you assholes. Are you too stupid to realize that Belichick is Satan? Of course I caused Tyree to make that catch, just to make the defeat that much more bitter for the Patriots. Would you rather I unleashed fire and brimstone on Boston and surrounding areas?
If the God fellow isn't intervening on behalf of at least nice kiddies and kind grannies on a regular basis isn't He kind of a Dick?
What's your problem with the Cubs God? And don't give me that crap about the billy goat.
David in NY, I'll concede the point. In my relatively recent experience as a college football player, victory was never prayed for. This was at a small southern school, albeit one with a winning football tradition. It would have been considered unsportsmanlike. After game prayer invariably involved members of both teams and followed 1 of 2 themes: Thank God noone was seriously injured or somebody was seriously injured, please let it be less bad than it looked. If things are different elsewhere, they're different elsewhere.
Thanks for the article you linked. Is anyone surprised that Yankees fans are the perpetrators of such jackassery? If there is a God, he surely punished them by sending that bloop single just out of Jeter's reach.
"Are you too stupid to realize that Belichick is Satan?"
Satan wouldn't have coached the Giants' defense in the Giants' first two Super Bowl victories. Why do lefties always assume someone with a sourpuss and cool public persona is evil? First Cheney, now Belichick... who's next?
On TWoP, there's the line 'God is in the tub' -- meaning that for the stars of reality shows that invoke divine intervention, it ain't coming.
When acclaimed athletes or musicians give credit to God, they're being modest.
There are other ways to do it, though. The Maradona line is notable because it's rare. You generally don't see soccer players -- even the obviously Catholic ones who cross themselves as they step onto the pitch -- invoking God when they're laying off personal responsibility.
Unpack it, and there's a degree of immodesty. I don't blame the players who've picked up that formulation, just as college players pick up NFL celebrations (15-yard unsportsmanlike), but it's definitely learned rather than intuitive.
Does New York's victory mean that God wants Hillary Clinton to be President, or does He favor Rudolph Giuliani?
I don't know about you guys, but as a Pats fan, I wish God had been busy taking a piss or something when Eli threw that ball...
"If there is no God, then the universe was uncreated and uncaused, therefore"
Therefore the universe itself caused Belichick to lose?
I was reminded of this not long ago when I saw Edward Cardinal Egan of New York City participating in the pep rally for the Yankees, . . .
I am confused David in NY. You claimed to have knowledge of what "every high school student in Texas thinks" and yet the example you give us comes from the archbishop of New York. How exactly does this explain the state of mind of young Texans? Or maybe you don't have any idea what Texas high school football games are like outside what you've seen on Varsity Blues.
God, if She exists, . . .
Whoa dude. You just blew my mind.
Let me just say that though I will love David Tyree forever for that catch, it was all him and magic sky man had nothing to do with it. In fact, magic sky man doesn't exist. There, I said it.
In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. Without Him, no ball to catch and no David Tyree to catch it. Therefore, ex post ipso fatso delorian, God ultimately was behind the catch.
If an omnipotent, omniscient God created the universe and set it in motion, then He is responsible for all things, including Tyree's amazing catch. Indeed, He knew it would transpire from the Beginning.There was that so hard?
If you posit an omnipotent, omniscient being, then no kind of argument is ever hard at all, no matter what you say, because you can claim anything you like.
But from this construction we'd have to conclude that the catch had nothing much to do with Tyree, nor was it really amazing, since God took care of it, and He had it planned all along.
This reminds me of an observation made by Johan Cruijff about Spanish soccer, where before every game all 22 players make the sign of the cross. He said that if God existed all games would therefore end in a draw.
There's something unseemly about a secular Jewish lefty -- a Harvard Magna Cum Laude philosophy grad at that -- making fun of a black athlete's religious statement. What's next, you're going to make fun of Tyree saying that his mother who passed away in December is his angel up in heaven looking down on him? Must you begrudge the blacks the comforts of their faith?The funny thing is that this is how most secular lefties really feel about black religious faith. Doesn't stop your candidates from shilling for votes in black churches though.
Unseemly, is it? And yet you have managed to roll up a whole pile of resentments all into one nasty little missive, about Matt Yglesias' religious background and beliefs, his politics, his educational institution and achievements, and you close it off with a divisive harangue about politics and race. All in a concern troll about being unseemly.
Fred gives us a good demonstration of the weird rule according to which everyone has to "respect" religion so much as to place it beyond any kind of criticism whatsoever, although we can attack anything else as sharply as we like. Matt's mild snark about a rigged Super Bowl is unseemly; but Fred feels free to rant about Matt as a secular Jewish Harvard magna cum laude liberal who studied philosophy and disdains black people.
I agree with Richard Dawkins about this, the "respect religion" imperative is arbitrary, bizarre, shuts down rational discussion, and does not need to be heeded.
do we need a rehash of "Bull Durham" aphorisms here?
Despite apparent intervention, that was one f'ing incredible catch. How does the ball not bounce when he hits the turf? incredible...
I don't know about God, but there are plenty of New Yorkers who, if pressed, might admit that they truly believe, in their heart of hearts, that Joe Namath really did sell his soul to the Devil for a Super Bowl victory.
Really.
First of all, I find it disingenuous that a profession that seems to encourage such strutting and bragging for even moderately successful outcomes and, sometimes even objective failures, can be accused of modesty on any level. Funny how modesty and God as a causative agent in games seems to be forgotten come contract negotiation time.
Second, those that point out high school and college sports don't pray for victory but safety and good sportsmanship are correct. I have heard teams pray for victory, but those instances are notably because they are so rare. But on the other hand, isn't thanking God for an injury-less football game kind of the same? If you thank God for a lack of serious injuries in one game, who do you blame/thank for a game (or practice) with a serious injury or even death? If God is a causal agent in one, why not the other? Why injure one player and not the other? How does he/she/it/they choose and what does that say about him/her/it/them. In this light a prayer thanking god for no injuries, it seems to me, can be translated into, "Thank the GSD for not arbitrarily smiting me this time and please don't do so the next."
Third, why restrict this logic to sports? Watch some of those "plucked from death on camera" shows or most local news. Invariably you will hear someone say that something sacred (God, Angel, Virgin Mary etc) took a personal interest and saving them from death to give them some sort of second chance. The obvious follow up would be why them and not the dozens, perhaps hundreds, of others who died horrible deaths and leaving grieving survivors. What kind of God is that? And how is this sentiment different from the Pat Roberton's of the world who say that victims of disaster are being punished by god?
Anyway, I gotta go to work.
Actually now that I have time to think about it (ie take a long, hot shower) I think that were I God and felt the need to take direct action on earth, the Super Bowl or similar sporting event would be the precise thing that I would intrude on. I mean, if god did help whats-his-face catch that ball against his helmet, that is no guarantee that the Giants would ultimately win. The Patriots could have risen to the challenge either before or after that play to keep that catch from being important whether God helped or not. And there is no true suffering caused either way. Sure some sports fans would be sad and some people who will make millions of dollars might make a few more or a few less millions but no one will go hungry, no one will be tortured, and no one will be covered in festering boils. Ultimately as much as we like to call sporting events historic, they really aren't in any meaningful or long term way So let God help players make passes and make the referee spot the ball to prevent or enable a first down here and there. Just leave the truly momentous tragedies and triumphs up to recognizable cause and effect so we have at least a chance of preventing or mitigating them.
my father, the military history buff, who thinks lucky breaks in Midway and Gettysburg prove that God is on the side of the United States.
Well, at least with respect to Gettysburg, Lincoln saw it differently:
Both read the same Bible and pray to the same God, and each invokes His aid against the other. It may seem strange that any men should dare to ask a just God's assistance in wringing their bread from the sweat of other men's faces, but let us judge not, that we be not judged. The prayers of both could not be answered. That of neither has been answered fully. The Almighty has His own purposes. "Woe unto the world because of offenses; for it must needs be that offenses come, but woe to that man by whom the offense cometh." If we shall suppose that American slavery is one of those offenses which, in the providence of God, must needs come, but which, having continued through His appointed time, He now wills to remove, and that He gives to both North and South this terrible war as the woe due to those by whom the offense came, shall we discern therein any departure from those divine attributes which the believers in a living God always ascribe to Him? Fondly do we hope, fervently do we pray, that this mighty scourge of war may speedily pass away. Yet, if God wills that it continue until all the wealth piled by the bondsman's two hundred and fifty years of unrequited toil shall be sunk, and until every drop of blood drawn with the lash shall be paid by another drawn with the sword, as was said three thousand years ago, so still it must be said "the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether."
The financial implications of this are enormous. Find out who God has laid money on, and simply pound that team with all you have.
matt foley -- as you and that article note, there is a way to pray before games that is not inconsistent with the religious beliefs of which it is a part.
Fresh take. And WHAT'S the DEAL with AIRLINE food?
the nickname of the play?
just simply "The Play"
Remember...it wasnt just a catch
Dilan,
God doesn't have a finite attention span. He can care infinitely about each one of us, he can care about the Iraq war, hunger in Africa, destruction of the Amazon, and the Super Bowl, all at the same time. I don't know if He _does_ care about the Super Bowl, probably not, but who knows?
what a magnificent Lincoln quotation....too bad that the mediocrities that pass for politicians today don't have his rhetorical gifts.
And the idea of an uncreated and uncaused universe is contrary to our experience and knowledge of physical nature, as the cosmological proof for the existence of God would indicate.
Jim Bouton, in his classic tell-all "Ball Four," after having heard enough from born-again relief ace Lindy McDaniel, said something about how much he'd enjoy hearing a player attribute his success to the fact that he didn't believe in God. Frankly, I hope my Yankees don't win another championship until after they stop praying before each game.
Is it modesty or arrogance for a musician or a player or a politician to claim that his success derives directly from God if he exists? My answer would be the latter, though I may be biased as I think that there is no such Superduper Being.
"And the idea of an uncreated and uncaused universe is contrary to our experience and knowledge of physical nature, as the cosmological proof for the existence of God would indicate."
Did you mean:
"And the idea of an uncreated and uncaused [God] is contrary to our experience and knowledge of physical nature, ...."
If the existence of the world requires the existence of God, then the existence of God must require the existence of the creator of God. N'est-ce pas?
> And the idea of an uncreated and uncaused
> universe is contrary to our experience and
> knowledge of physical nature, as the
> cosmological proof for the existence of God
> would indicate.
As physics should tell you, in the extreme realms of our universe, things often don't work as we "experience" them everyday in our own environment.
The essential point here is: nobody knows how the universe came into existence. It is profoundly dumb and ridiculous to assert 100% certain "belief" or "faith" (which is what religion is all about) that a mystical "God" creature is behind it. The only sensible position at this point of human development is to shrug one's shoulder and say "we simply don't know".
In any case, crediting "God" doesn't add any value or information at all. Whether you say "God created the universe" or "the universe created the universe i.e. itself" is exactly the same thing, only the former is a lot more infantile, especially when combined with the ridiculous worship and little stories for those who apparently cannot operate in a kind and socially responsible way without being told that these are the magic rules of the Supergod.
We were winning until Jesus screwed us over. Additionally, the Holy Spirit sacked me five times and this is going to cause me severe muscle and joint inflammation until mid-April.
On the plus side, shagging supermodels helps to ease the pain. Thank God.
Obliviously a ludicrous statement…everyone knows that God cheers for the Pittsburgh Steelers.
Obliviously a ludicrous statement…everyone knows that God cheers for the Pittsburgh Steelers.
Mr. Hittenburg,
What we know today of quantum mechanics is much more favorable to the idea that intelligence and will are basic and eternal constituents of the universe than pre-20th century physics ever was.
The universe may not have been created by God, but it clearly it was created by _some_ supernatural being. Whether that being was God, the Devil, or a team of angels, is a matter of faith.
God doesn't have a finite attention span. He can care infinitely about each one of us, he can care about the Iraq war, hunger in Africa, destruction of the Amazon, and the Super Bowl, all at the same time. I don't know if He _does_ care about the Super Bowl, probably not, but who knows?
Hector, I am not saying that it is logically impossible that God could care about the result of the Super Bowl. I am saying it is ridiculously arrogant of athletes to think that She would.
As I said, there's a perfectly modest, theistic solution to this problem. Thank God for keeping the player safe out there. Football's a dangerous game. And if the player says that, it doesn't sound so egotistical, at least by the standards of typical western theology.
Maradona's "hand of god" comment wasn't a religious invocation at all - it was simply a (very clever) way of dodging a question about a goal that had been clearly (to everyone except the ref) illegally scored with his hand.
It is interesting how many sporting achievements are descibed in overtly religious terms - "the immaculate reception", "the miracle on ice" etc. (Or has "miracle" been so abused as to be stripped of any religious connotation?)
I'm stealing "ex post ipso fatso delorian" (all though, it will be years before the appropriate conversational moment arises where I can use it). And, I must say am quite pleased, for reasons I cannot express, at just how wonderfully this thread has decayed into the flinging of competing, unverifiable claims about the true mindset of the Creator Beast who spawned the cosmos. Here's mine-the only reason God created the world is because he likes spiders.
So is this catch going to get a nickname? Sounds like Tyree is thinking Immaculate Reception II
The most popular I've seen so far is 'Tyree-ception.'
Is it modesty or arrogance for a musician or a player or a politician to claim that his success derives directly from God if he exists? My answer would be the latter, though I may be biased as I think that there is no such Superduper Being.
Well, the claim to extrinsic agency is a very, very old one, formalised in the Homeric invocation. Scrubbing out any claim to be 'moved from without' may fit a rational era, but it also problematises the basis of extraordinary abilities. There's a balancing act to the psychological phenomenon of 'flow' or being 'in the zone' or 'taken out of yourself': a performer or artist or athlete can say 'I honestly don't know where that came from' without laying claim to some kind of divine privilege. Instead, it's just an acknowledgement that one's abilities and actions can be unfathomable.
There are degrees of invocation, of course, and I'm generally sympathetic to ones that are more 'I wasn't really a conscious, rational actor in that situation', as opposed to 'the supreme being picked me out for special privilege'. Most fall into the first category, and that just makes them part of a long tradition.
Fred feels free to rant about Matt as a secular Jewish Harvard magna cum laude liberal who studied philosophy and disdains black people.
That's because there's a very thin veneer to Fred's abject racism, homophobia and misogyny, and a very obvious amount of projection.
Irksome too is the fact that, when a team gets handed its ass, no one ever pipes up and says, "The reason we got the shit kicked out of us is that Jesus totally abandoned us. Jesus needs to get his game face one. When he 'graces us with his presence', maybe we'll start winning again.
Comments closed February 18, 2008.
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Heads in the Sand
When God saw it was paying better than three to one for an out right Giants win, he couldn't help himself.
Posted by Rob | February 4, 2008 7:07 PM