Matthew Yglesias (February 21, 2008)

Am I the only one who thought that the "cares about people like me" speech at the end worked like a charm, and has a potential to change the race, at least in Texas?

Posted by Nicholas Beaudrot | February 21, 2008 9:52 PM

Yeah, that was really a great last answer. Clearly genuine, IMO.

Posted by Korha | February 21, 2008 9:54 PM

I think Clinton has come to terms with her situation and made a decision to go out gracefully.

But it is noteworthy that both of their campaign styles are far more suited to front-running than coming from behind. Obama certainly didn't pass Hillary because of any of his debate performances.

Posted by Swopa | February 21, 2008 9:56 PM

Good assessment, but, to my great consternation as an Obama supporter, I think there is another phenomenon also going on.

Since the time of the last debate the Obama campaign has lifted off into a near-messianic frenzy. Many of his new supporters, or newly-energized old supporters, haven't yet seen him in a debate format and know him only from his thrilling speeches; could this have 'brought them down to earth' in a potentially harsh manner? Was he not as magical as they expected? I mean, this was a very different Obama than 'Yes We Can'. It may sway many votes or accelerate some kind of backlash...

Posted by CG | February 21, 2008 9:57 PM

I think Clinton has come to terms with her situation and made a decision to go out gracefully.

Were you watching when she spouted her Xerox line?

Might have been the most ungraceful moment of the Democratic primary campaign.

Posted by SoCalJustice | February 21, 2008 9:58 PM

No presidential debate should be "dull", if the questioners are doing their jobs.

For instance, instead of having a cultural separatist and Mexican citizen who refuses to become a U.S. citizen asking about immigration, CNN could have had someone who's on the other side from both candidates ask them how many years it would take to do all the checks under "reform".

If it takes a decade or more to do the checks on all the IllegalAliens that both Hillary and Obama want to legalize, then, gosh, maybe they should be asked about that.

Of course, Party hacks like MattY don't need to concern themselves with such minor issues.

Posted by TLB | February 21, 2008 9:59 PM

Cue Marc Rich.

The Clintons never go out gracefully.

Posted by Richard Steven Hack | February 21, 2008 10:00 PM

@CG: As a fellow Obama supporter, I wouldn't worry too much.

This was not an exciting debate for either of them. All Obama needs to do is not mess up. He's got two more weeks to close on Texas.

And yes, Hillary's last answer was lovely....but at the same time, there was something, as Ambinder pointed out, "wistful" about it. It sounded to me like she had seen the writing on the wall.

Posted by C.Michol | February 21, 2008 10:00 PM

While her last answer was better than Obama's, it's to be expected as she went second. And while is was much better than his, it ultimately sounded a bit canned.

Posted by guachi | February 21, 2008 10:01 PM

It doesn't seem like she made a strong case for more debates.

Posted by Galois | February 21, 2008 10:01 PM

Nice xerox closing Billary.

Posted by john o. | February 21, 2008 10:01 PM

I'm not sure what the import of the final remark will be, but it played to me like Hillary's recognition that this race is pretty much over for her. In particular, I would point to her adoption of the language of "hope" in the last line and "whatever happens; we're gonna be fine."

I'm an Obama supporter, and it's still extremely difficult for me to imagine what the end of Hillary Clinton's candidacy will look like. And for that reason, I think she's probably got one comeback left in her.

Posted by southpaw | February 21, 2008 10:02 PM

Nice xerox closing Billary (a lift from Bill '92 according to Josh Marshall).

Posted by john o. | February 21, 2008 10:02 PM

Obama was VERY good on the C-in-C question, and the foreign policy questions in general. I think he did extremely well (even more so if we're handicapping for having a cold). Clinton is very good at this too. I think this was yet another win for the Democratic Party, because we have such great talent up there.

Posted by Beth in VA | February 21, 2008 10:03 PM

Am I the only one who thought that the "cares about people like me" speech at the end worked like a charm, and has a potential to change the race, at least in Texas?

If that's literally the only thing anyone talks about from the debate, then yeah, but there were other things too that will be in his favor (his good answer on Iraq, her lame-o Xerox line).

Nobody asked them about the NYT McCain story, did they? Everyone on Hardball was salivating about what would happen when that question came up tonight, obviously operating under the assumption that it would be the key issue of the entire debate. But no one brought it up at all, right? At least that's refreshing.

Posted by Haggai | February 21, 2008 10:03 PM

Josh Marshall hints that her last answer is very reminiscent of something Bill Clinton said in 1992. Please let it be lifted. Please please please LOL

Posted by Benjamin | February 21, 2008 10:03 PM

Assuming Obama goes all the way, what if he makes Hillary his health care "czar?" (And no, she won't be VP.) It's obvious she's passionate about the issue and has great command of it. So why not give her the chance to lead the effort in the Senate?

Obama could give her a chance to salvage her legacy after her '93 health care flop and the embarrassing campaign she's run up to this point. Everybody walks away happy, and as an added bonus, it would shut Krugman up.

Posted by SDinIA | February 21, 2008 10:03 PM

Obama gave me multiple orgasms.

Posted by Completely Objective Unbiased Undecided Voter | February 21, 2008 10:04 PM

Obama is probably going to win the nomination on freshness and style points but Hillary is very very impressive.

She had to keep the Xerox line in play but to her credit she got back to substance quickly.

Posted by Still Undecided | February 21, 2008 10:06 PM

"Asked about his lifting of lines from Gov. Deval Patrick (Mass.), Obama sought to dismiss the charges of plagiarism as the sort of politics the American public is sick of. "The notion I had plagiarized from someone who is one of my national co-chairs who gave me the line and suggested I use it I think is silly," Obama said. "This is where we get into silly season in politics and people start getting discouraged about it."

Clinton, however, clearly believes this is a political weak spot for Obama and went after it -- hard. "If your candidacy is going to be about words, they should be your own words," said Clinton. "Lifting whole passages is not change you can believe in, it's change you can Xerox."

That line, obviously prepared in advance of tonight's debate, fell flat. The crowd went silent and then a smattering of boos rang out. Obama shook his head and muttered to himself.

That exchange highlighted the difficulty for Clinton when it comes to drawing contrasts with Obama. Any attack falls into a familiar dynamic that she is a partisan politician practicing politics as usual while he is a transformational figure bringing hope and change to the system.

Obama has created a framework whereby arguing against his approach to government and philosophy is arguing against the hopes and dreams of the American public. It is a very hard nut to crack for Clinton." (http://blog.washingtonpost.com/thefix/?hpid=topnews)

I think that's about right. The whole plagiarism thing was not just in poor taste but was also incoherent. First she makes the Xerox line, then she brings up the YouTube video, and then she tries to reason from that to how he has no substance? That whole section made no sense. She came off seeming more desperate than ever before.

Posted by R. Vangala | February 21, 2008 10:09 PM

Hillary is fairly amazing. But it comes at a cost that probably explains why she has such high negatives. Her mastery of policy details and political rhetoric must seem off-putting to traditional types. They probably want to see a woman comfortable in her own authentic personality. Instead, there's this dazzlingly bright and secure character.

Is Hillary a phony? To ask the question is to answer it.

Posted by walt | February 21, 2008 10:09 PM

She had to keep the Xerox line in play

Why? It made her look completely desperate and it was pathetic.

The crowd hated it.

Why did she have to do it?

The same reason she had to loan herself $5 million dollars? Because her handlers made idiotic decisions?

Posted by SoCalJustice | February 21, 2008 10:09 PM

'xerox closing'

The start of her closing remarks were exactly the same as those made in the 'crying' answer in NH.

Still, it was a very strong ending and probably tipped the entire debate in her favor.

Posted by Kolohe | February 21, 2008 10:10 PM

You know when they were scripting certain lines inside the Clinton debate prep team, some people fell in love with the "Xerox" line and insisted that she used it. There were probably others who voiced concern that it would sound scripted and fall flat, but they got outvoted.

Posted by blah | February 21, 2008 10:13 PM

I agree HRC's last answer was effective, but she may have sabotaged herself. The part about "the hits I've been taking" was a verbatim quote from Bill Clinton's 1992 New Hampshire speech - which would not be a big deal except for her sanctimonious garbage about not using other people's lines. I wonder how people will feel about this warm, heartfelt moment once someone finds the YouTube of Bill using the exact same words?

Posted by Kevin | February 21, 2008 10:14 PM

As a white male in an all white rural Georgia town, there is this expectation (or perhaps a stereotype) among people I know that Obama is going to be a black preacher/civil rights type of leader, which would not play well here. Except for these debates, all we see on tv is highlights of these "inspirational" speeches, and for the most part, they reinforce the stereotype. For me at least, these debates showcase Obama as presedential, and I know the debates have changed the minds of people I know about Obama. What ever bias or fear that might exist of Obama as a "black" candidate is eliminated with these debates.

Posted by Scott | February 21, 2008 10:15 PM

As a white male in an all white rural Georgia town, there is this expectation (or perhaps a stereotype) among people I know that Obama is going to be a black preacher/civil rights type of leader, which would not play well here. Except for these debates, all we see on tv is highlights of these "inspirational" speeches, and for the most part, they reinforce the stereotype. For me at least, these debates showcase Obama as presedential, and I know the debates have changed the minds of people I know about Obama. What ever bias or fear that might exist of Obama as a "black" candidate is eliminated with these debates.

Posted by Scott | February 21, 2008 10:16 PM

Obama started off subdued and restrained, with Clinton going for it with energy and some crowd-pleasing lines, but Obama grew in strength and command throughout the debate, and was more focussed, incisive, and concrete as Clinton began to ramble a bit I thought. I thought on substantive policy differences, Obama had the better of the arguments all night, especially on foreign policy. But I think his account of the mandate issue, and connecting it with the mess in Massachusetts, was his most convincing presentation yet of the case for his approach.

But their were two dramatic episodes: Clinton's cheap shot about "change you can Xerox" bombed badly with the audience, deflated her confidence and put her back on her heels the rest of the night. Given the way things were going for her up to that time, quite well I thought, I was shocked she decided suddenly to go crassly negative. It was a real blunder, and it opened the way for Obama to take a stronger and more dignified position, and make the case the rest of the night for his theory of change based on unification and building coalitions, while Clinton then looked like a representative of the old politics that the audience clearly was not interested in seeing.

Then the other dramatic, and somewhat weird part: In Clinton's final comments, she began with the "people ask me how I do it" line, a clear reference back to the famous exchange in Portsmouth, New Hampshire. She then started telling a bunch of sad stories about people in wheelchairs and such. Frankly, it looked like a calculated effort to make herself well up.

On a more uplifting note, I thought the little handshake at the end during Clinton's final comments was a moment of genuine sincerity and bonding between the two candidates, and may have signaled Clinton's regret for the earlier cheap shot. And Clinton's summing up helped create a space for reconciliation and reunification of the two camps. Her comments to the effect that whatever happens to her, Democrats will go on to win really captured the mood of the audience, and they justly applauded her for it. It did sound like a bit of a swan song, though, didn't it?

Posted by Dan Kervick | February 21, 2008 10:16 PM

As a white male in an all white rural Georgia town, there is this expectation (or perhaps a stereotype) among people I know that Obama is going to be a black preacher/civil rights type of leader, which would not play well here. Except for these debates, all we see on tv is highlights of these "inspirational" speeches, and for the most part, they reinforce the stereotype. For me at least, these debates showcase Obama as presedential, and I know the debates have changed the minds of people I know about Obama. What ever bias or fear that might exist of Obama as a "black" candidate is eliminated with these debates.

Posted by Scott | February 21, 2008 10:17 PM

Half the crowd might have hated it but it scores points with many. The plagiarism charge has dinged Obama and the media gives it play. Check the headline on TPM:

http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/02/hillary_on_obamas_speeches_its.php

I don't blame her for getting the line off but am glad she didn't overdo it.

Hillary has high negatives because she's been a target for more than 15 years. They have barely started going after Obama.

Posted by Still Undecided | February 21, 2008 10:17 PM

Still, it was a very strong ending and probably tipped the entire debate in her favor.

Assuming it gets mileage beyond this. I'm not sure it does. I think the Xerox boo gets mileage.

The problem for Hillary is she needs to do a heckofa lot more than just tip debates to her favor.

Posted by Jake | February 21, 2008 10:18 PM

I wonder how people will feel about this warm, heartfelt moment once someone finds the YouTube of Bill using the exact same words?

I don't think anyone will think of it as less than heartfelt, mostly because the "change you can Xerox" line of attack was so obviously stupid from the first time her campaign started making it. Though I guess it might reinforce how little there is for her to attack about Obama.

Posted by Haggai | February 21, 2008 10:19 PM

Were you watching when she spouted her Xerox line?

Well, okay, she did give in to temptation a few times. (And to be honest, I was only listening at that moment while doing something else.)

BTW, Kevin and others above are right about her lifting from Bill in NH in 1992 ("I've taken some hits in this race, but they're nothing compared to the hits the American people have taken," etc.) Instant karma's gonna get you, Hillary...

Posted by Swopa | February 21, 2008 10:19 PM

One small comment. Hillary calling out Sen. Kirk Watson's "freeze" from the other night was probably not a good idea. Watson is hugely popular in Austin, and ran statewide in 2002. He is known by Democrats across the state and is thought of as one of our top talents.(which is actually true, MSNBC performance, aside). One of my friends was at the Democratic Party debate party. He said the Watson call-out bombed even worse than the "xerox" line. Lots of boos and hisses.

Posted by Texan | February 21, 2008 10:21 PM

One small comment. Hillary calling out Sen. Kirk Watson's "freeze" from the other night was probably not a good idea. Watson is hugely popular in Austin, and ran statewide in 2002. He is known by Democrats across the state and is thought of as one of our top talents.(which is actually true, MSNBC performance, aside). One of my friends was at the Democratic Party debate party. He said the Watson call-out bombed even worse than the "xerox" line. Lots of boos and hisses.

Posted by Colin | February 21, 2008 10:22 PM

Half the crowd might have hated it but it scores points with many.

Only with Obama haters like you, and there aren't that many.

The plagiarism charge has dinged Obama and the media gives it play.

No, it hasn't. At all. The desperation of Team Clinton on this is tragic.

Check the headline on TPM

So? Just a sampling of the comments on that thread - virtually all negative:

Cheap and childish.

Hillary got the only boos of the night with the Xerox line.

he should cry. loudly. like an infant.

Her Xerox line, which Bill Schneider over at the CNN live blogging, characterized as "contrived", really went over well. The crowd booed.

You're a dead ender.

Posted by SoCalJustice | February 21, 2008 10:24 PM

I agree that the Watson call-out was a disaster. Obama was ready for that one and knocked it out of the park.

Posted by Still Undecided | February 21, 2008 10:24 PM

The plagiarism charge has dinged Obama and the media gives it play. Check the headline on TPM:

Indeed, check out the headline, but also read the comments. It really came off as more petty than anything else.

Posted by Jake | February 21, 2008 10:25 PM

"if she was still the front-runner, this would have counted"

But ... this doesn't count. Ha ha. Way to have the worm turn on you Clinton.

Posted by Bill Cowper | February 21, 2008 10:27 PM

Hillary was good as always, but even with her stirring finale, I thought Obama took the night.

He held his own on Hillary's srtong suit, health care, and smoked her on the rest: the economy, immigration, Cuba, foreign policy, Commander in Chief, the invasion of Iraq.

Even when their policy positions are identical, Obama's more pithy. Hillary sounds great for the first minute of a response but then starts to drift into a wonky ramble.

And she got booed on the Xerox snipe. Booed.

Posted by Lucy | February 21, 2008 10:29 PM

It was very sad watching her. Yes it is over and she knows it.
She basically said i'm gave up, and wants not be hated.
I hope she gets a very very prominent job in the new adminstration.

Obama is oozes class and presidential presence. He will make a great president

Nice that they shook hands. I know she will try her best to rally the party behind Obama now and take back the WH.

Posted by Kelly Pierce | February 21, 2008 10:31 PM

One small comment. Hillary calling out Sen. Kirk Watson's "freeze" from the other night was probably not a good idea. Watson is hugely popular in Austin, and ran statewide in 2002.

And it also gave Obama a great opening to rattle off his legislative accomplishments, and show that even if one of his supporters doesn't know what's on the list, he does. One can find a lot of online comparisons of the legislative records of Obama and Clinton, and frankly Obama has the better of the comparison, and knows it. He said twice "I'm not denigrating Senator Clinton's record" which was a polite way of suggesting it wasn't as strong as his.

Posted by Dan Kervick | February 21, 2008 10:31 PM

Something about Hillary and her policy knowledge...I don't know if it's great that she can get up there and just rattle off policy at the drop of a hat. I mean, it's great that she's informed (obviously) but that's simply memorizing material. People seem to ding Obama for not instantaneously firing back with a canned response and maybe that's because he's considering the question and thinking about the best possible answer. You'd think after the last 8 years we'd want someone who can appreciate nuance. And, so this doesn't come off as an attack against Hillary, both she and Obama have a much, MUCH better grasp of policy nuances than McCain does.

Posted by Mike P | February 21, 2008 10:32 PM

Dan Drezner thinks Clinton copied that last bit from Jack Stanton.

Posted by Ottawa | February 21, 2008 10:34 PM

Indeed, check out the headline, but also read the comments.

The comments are from Obama cult-members. Lots of voters don't hang out on the internet.

I'm not saying it was a particularly effective attack just that it was understandable in a campaign. Sorry that Hillary slurred your deity.

Posted by Still Undecided | February 21, 2008 10:34 PM

Let’s see. Even assuming "plagiarism" which of course is a slander in and of itself, who are you going to trust?

The classless, ruthless, corrupt, sexually abusing, incompetent Billary,

Or

A gifted, dedicated genuine leader with impeccable integrity and judgment that will surround himself with the best and the brightest and be on a mission to be the best president ever?

Time for Obama, the media and the leaders of the democratic party that support Obama to come back at her 10 fold and remind us all again how fucking dishonest and corrupt they are.

Posted by Monica's Blue Stained Dress | February 21, 2008 10:35 PM

I love how the pundits seem to think that the ability to ramble and rattle off "policy" is as important as they seem to think it is. The fact that part of HRC's closing was hijacked from a JRE speech is just too ironic. Pity the people that fall for that weak shit all over again.

Posted by Coltrane | February 21, 2008 10:38 PM

A superb victory for Obama. Brilliant. Perfect pitch, cool, unflappable, reassuring.

He's going to win both Texas and Ohio.

I finally feel some sorrow for Hillary. She ended on the right note. Good for her.

Posted by Manfred | February 21, 2008 10:39 PM

I'm not saying it was a particularly effective attack just that it was understandable in a campaign.

No, you said, and I quote, "the plagiarism charge has dinged Obama" and that she had to do it.

The comments are from Obama cult-members.

Reason #6 why your candidate has gotten crushed by the voters.

Sorry that Hillary slurred your deity.

Reason #5.

You guys never get tired of that. Oh well.

Posted by SoCalJustice | February 21, 2008 10:40 PM

Why feel sorry for Clinton? The right man is going to win. She slimes because that is all she has and all she is: slime.

Posted by Bill Cowper | February 21, 2008 10:41 PM

Sorry Matt, you are in the echo chamber of the media right now. Health care was not her strong point tonight, nothing was...step out side the spin room and listen to the people not the reporters.

Posted by eh? | February 21, 2008 10:44 PM

The whole reconciliation thing: is it a sign she is angling for the VP slot now? I think she has realized that is her only chance of ever getting back in the white house at this point.

Posted by MS | February 21, 2008 10:45 PM

The comments are from Obama cult-members.

So . . . . are you still undecided, Still Undecided?

Posted by southpaw | February 21, 2008 10:47 PM

A gifted, dedicated genuine leader with impeccable integrity and judgment that will surround himself with the best and the brightest and be on a mission to be the best president ever?

And, when the comet comes, he'll have ponies for everyone! Now, put on your black Nikes to prepare for the journey...

Posted by TLB | February 21, 2008 10:48 PM

that a leader might "pause to think" is not an altogether bad thing, it it? it's the result of a person who was truly educated. she might ace the multiple choice section of the exam, but i bet he'd write the better essay.

Posted by deeluzon | February 21, 2008 10:48 PM

"...but her ability to rattle off policy details on the fly really comes through whereas Obama needs to pause to think"

Matt, the last thing I'd want is a president who thinks before answering a question. Much better if someone can recite passages from a briefing book.

Posted by Helter | February 21, 2008 10:52 PM

I would give the copycat charge to Clinton on points. She may have cribbed a line from her husband but his campaign relies on themes and rhetoric that originated with other candidates.
(I wouldn't call it plagiarism since a good portion of what Obama is borrowing is from his own Senate campaign)

Obama 08 = Patrick 06 = Obama 04 = Edwards beta 04
and there is some Washington 83 somewhere in there as well.

Our concern is to heal. Our concern is to bring together. Business as usual will not be accepted by the people of this city. We shall work as one people for our common good and our common goals.
We fought that good fight with unseasoned weapons and a phalanx of people who mostly had never been involved in a political campaign before. Our government will be moving forward as well, including more people and more kinds of people than any government...

Posted by skeptic | February 21, 2008 10:52 PM

Just for fun:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAYItnI-lPo

Posted by R. Vangala | February 21, 2008 10:53 PM

Her closing comments were almost verbatim to Edwards' closing remarks at a previous debate!!!! Wasn't shit genuine about it!

Posted by Dawn | February 21, 2008 10:54 PM

I love how the pundits seem to think that the ability to ramble and rattle off "policy" is as important as they seem to think it is.

I'd like it if they actually did think that; we wouldn't have gotten saddled with Bush over Gore if pundits took that stuff seriously. But they clearly DON'T think policy is important. I.e. they think talking about it is "rambling" or "rattling".

People not stuck in an internet bubble realize that Hillary is very good at talking about policy and at communicating how her fluency with it can affect people's lives in a positive way. That's her main strength as a politician. Obama, who wasn't nearly as good at her at that when the campaign started, has improved significantly on that front, and that's no small part of why he's taken the overall lead.

Posted by Haggai | February 21, 2008 10:54 PM

I find it really troubling how ungracious Obama supporters are being here tonight.

I think as a strong Hillary supporter - as everyone here knows I am - I can say Obama had a good night, and he didn't make any big mistakes. Nothing that was said was a knock-out or game changer. I think he scored with the response on speeches and his line on Iraq, and I think she scored on health care. She had a strong and empathetic closing answer which stopped this debate from being an Obama victory. Not that I think it will change the trajectory of either candidate.

Having said all that I would think supporters of Obama should at least acknowledge that Clinton passed up a big opportunity to hurt Obama for the general election. She easily could have said he wasn't ready to be president, and ill-prepared to be commander-in-chief. I don't think that would have given her the nomination but it may have cost him the election in November. So before anyone get's too smug let's remember that.

Posted by Tim K | February 21, 2008 10:55 PM

So . . . . are you still undecided, Still Undecided?

Yup. This has been a tough one for me to sort out but I'll be happy with either as nominee. They both impressed me tonight.

Posted by Still Undecided | February 21, 2008 10:56 PM

As someone who lost a lot of respect for the Clintons over the past few months, I thought she comported herself well in this debate and I have much less doubt that she could take down McCain and drive back her negatives over the course of a general election campaign.

That being said, Obama was equally good if not better in this debate, will be the Democratic nominee, and will be a President with a mandate for liberal change. I feel good.

Posted by ScottS | February 21, 2008 10:57 PM

George Bush never pauses to think.

Posted by Woody Bombay | February 21, 2008 10:58 PM

I find it really troubling how ungracious Obama supporters are being here tonight.

Agreed. They're really an ugly group. That's gonna make it difficult for some to get behind Obama whole-heartedly this fall.

It's kind of a Bill Belichick attitude. And you know how that worked out for him.

Posted by Still Undecided | February 21, 2008 11:01 PM

She easily could have said he wasn't ready to be president, and ill-prepared to be commander-in-chief.
But she didn't have the nerve, she knows she can't win that argument.

Posted by blindjoedeath | February 21, 2008 11:02 PM

Clinton saved the debate with her close, I think. Obama was winning before the last answer by a small amount, but I think that she evened it out with a strong finish after a fairly flat responce by Obama. Clinton's Xerox attack was a mistake, I think, and Obama turned most of her other attacks on these lines to her advantage. As usual, Clinton did a bit better on health care and Obama did a bit better on foreign affairs.

Clinton also gets points for not attacking on the commander-in-chief question: it might have helped her, but it would have been really bad for the party in that it would have given McCain an effective TV commercial against Obama if he is the nominee. I've not been a big fan of the Clinton campaign, but if they continue not to do there in debates, they deserve our sincere thanks.

Posted by ikl | February 21, 2008 11:14 PM

She easily could have said he wasn't ready to be president, and ill-prepared to be commander-in-chief.

you're right. especially considering that she's been saying that exact thing for the whole of the primary, but he was sitting right beside her and would have had a response to it and everything. it was better that she kept her thoughts to herself.

Posted by TPH | February 21, 2008 11:15 PM

Texan: "Watson is hugely popular in Austin, and ran statewide in 2002. He is known by Democrats across the state and is thought of as one of our top talents.(which is actually true, MSNBC performance, aside).

If Watson is one of of the top democratic talents in your state then all I can say is that the Texas Democratic Party is in dismal, dismal shape.

Tim K: "She easily could have said he wasn't ready to be president, and ill-prepared to be commander-in-chief. I don't think that would have given her the nomination but it may have cost him the election in November. So before anyone get's too smug let's remember that.

That's true, and good for her.

Posted by Korha | February 21, 2008 11:16 PM

I have an opinion to share too! Really, I do!

Posted by AQ | February 21, 2008 11:17 PM

"I find it really troubling how ungracious Obama supporters are being here tonight.

Agreed. They're really an ugly group. That's gonna make it difficult for some to get behind Obama whole-heartedly this fall."

Well said. Billary and fans have set new heights for attacking below the belt, then crying and claiming victum hood, right wing conspiracy, all those bimbos are lying, I did not have sex with voting for war in Iraq and Iran... I was just lucky with that futures investment, I just don't know why I shredded those legal documents, don't ask don't tell, triangulation, republican landslide...heath care debacle.... oh my

"poor me, poor me"

At some point it will don on Billary that the negatives are real and based on a collective view of the most educated segment of this country that they are disqualified for another presidency.

Posted by ganard | February 21, 2008 11:18 PM

TPH:

especially considering that she's been saying that exact thing for the whole of the primary

Sorry, just want to correct something there. Although the Clinton campaign has implicitly made the argument that she is ready and he is not, it has been an implicit argument. She has never provided the type of definitive quote that could be deployed against Obama in a negative ad. In fact, I can't count how many times (in this debate, other debates and in many interviews like on MTP) she's been asked directly by reporters "are you saying Barack Obama is not prepared to be president?" and she has always, always, always taken a pass.

In contrast, Obama hasn't held back in saying directly that she is divisive and unable to unite the country.

Posted by Tim K | February 21, 2008 11:21 PM

Still Undecided, your moniker is as ungenuine as your chosen candidate.

The truth is that the "typical Obama supporter" is more difficult to caricature than the typical Clinton supporter. And "cultist", especially when it comes to politics, is not an apt description of most of us. In fact, if anything defines "us" it is the explicit rejection of the false choice of membership in either the cult of Democrats or the cult of Republicans, and the Rove versus Clinton soundbite game that goes along with it.

Posted by T.K. | February 21, 2008 11:22 PM

It's amazing to me how many people are willing just to ignore "Change we can Xerox"--clearly an attempt to deride Obama in repeatable sound-bite form--and wax eloquently about how "genuine" and "honest" Hillary's last moment was---ESPECIALLY when her campaign manager wastes no time getting on the horn making sure all the media people present it as such.

I mean, it is simply stupid to interpret her last statement as anything other than a calculated attempt to make one last push, to appeal one last time to the sympathy of the old party.

Posted by wj | February 21, 2008 11:23 PM

First, it's interesting to me to see people say that she won the healthcare argument. I think it's their starkest policy difference, but is really kind of a Rorschach for how "Dem" you are. I've always been a Democrat, but I'm really pretty moderate and sometimes cross over in local elections for the right candidate. To me, Barack's policy position on healthcare is simply more appealing, because I am put off by the idea of a "nanny state" (as are MANY independents and moderate Republicans). His plan shows trust in the people do make rational decisions if he clears the path... I like that, so I thought he carried that argument tonight. I guess she must have been persuasive because I'm clearly outvoted on that front, but there isn't much she could say to sell me on her approach to that particular problem.

Posted by Cranky Kate | February 21, 2008 11:23 PM

I think Obama has to be counted the clear winner tonight, for this reason:

Obama's chief argument against Clinton, made over and over, is that while the policy differences between them are relatively slight, Clinton simply does not have the ability to produce change, because she does not know how to bring people together, while he has a demonstrated record of success in doing just that. He uses the example of her health care initiative during her husband's administration as an example of how not to go about attempting change, and a case study in failure. The unstated implication of much of his argument, of course, is that Clinton is an antagonizing and polarizing figure.

When Clinton let loose with the Xerox crack, she proved his point. She divided the enthusiastic Democratic audience in half, right before our eyes, and he then commanded the discussion the rest of the night.

Game, set, match.

Posted by Dan Kervick | February 21, 2008 11:26 PM

Dan Kervick:

When I read comments like that I almost wish Hillary would just flat out say Barack isn't ready for the big chair. If only to wipe the smirk off the faces of Obama supporters as they gloat.

Then I snap out of it and realize we ultimately are on the same side, although it's easy to forget sometimes.

Posted by Tim K | February 21, 2008 11:29 PM

Still Undecided:
Agreed. They're really an ugly group. That's gonna make it difficult for some to get behind Obama whole-heartedly this fall.
It's kind of a Bill Belichick attitude. And you know how that worked out for him.

I think this is overstated. Barack supporters fervently support him, get stressed out when he's close to winning, and get defensive and prickly. The same is true of anyone else. I haven't seen a whole lot more graciousness from either Hillary or McCain supporters on comment threads or in person.

That said, I think it's very vital to understand the example Barack is really trying to put forward, which at least ideally does not include a lot of defensiveness or prickliness. Obama is prone to those mistakes too, like anyone, but his overriding message is one of finding common ground and building bridges. And if we want our nominee to be our president, we have to open ourselves up to true reflection and debate.

The other side will throw plenty of mud, and that's fine. Mud will fly in both directions. But even though his own campaign will not perfectly adhere to it, Barack will be talking about unity, and with good reason. When we chop the country in half, special interests win and the American people lose. When we form real mandates for action, things will get done.

Posted by mk | February 21, 2008 11:33 PM

Obama had some good moments, but her ability to rattle off policy details on the fly really comes through whereas Obama needs to pause to think.

You can also put me down for not seeing this as a mark against Obama. I'm not impressed by people who can rattle off pre-memorized responses; am more impressed by those who take the time to think about the substance.

Posted by guyx | February 21, 2008 11:33 PM

They're really an ugly group.

So rich coming from "Still 'Obama cult-members' Undecided."

Posted by SoCalJustice | February 21, 2008 11:38 PM

The Plank just reported that her closing statement was lifted from an Edwards speech.

and that is why people feel so strongly about billary.... duplicitous in the extreem.

Posted by gammarays | February 21, 2008 11:38 PM

I don't think that is fair to Dan Kervick. His analysis seems pretty sensible and is in line with exit polls showing that voters are more likely to think that Clinton attacks unfairly (in SC even her own voters thought this!). I don't think that Obama was the clear winner except in the sense that he is ahead and didn't clearly lose, but that judgment depends on my guesses of how much voters will focus on what.

I think that Cranky Kate's analysis of the health care issue is pretty sharp - Obama is better positioned on this issue in the general election, but Clinton is better position in the Democratic primary. I don't know enough to have a firm opinion (health care policy is hugely complicated), but I am inclined toward Clinton's position on the merits. But is is a bit hard to say how undecided Democratic primary voters are likley to see the exchange . . .

Posted by ikl | February 21, 2008 11:38 PM

I don't think that is fair to Dan Kervick.

Tim K is not about fair.

Tim K is about Hillary uber alles, and, in the alternative, slamming Obama for everything, real and imagined. Emphasis on the imagined.

Posted by SoCalJustice | February 21, 2008 11:41 PM

Addendum/summary to the comment I just posted:

It's time to ask whether we want to challenge ourselves to really believe in Barack's theory of change. If we don't, the talk of unity is truly window dressing.

I for one fundamentally like, and would fight to support (not as ironic as it sounds), his vision of change.

Build bridges, find common ground, talk to those whom you disagree with. Improve communication and transparency. Don't be small. Yup, that goes for the supporters of the guy too, not just the guy himself.

Posted by mk | February 21, 2008 11:41 PM

SoCalJustice:

I've actually been quite fair to Obama tonight if you were paying any attention. I acknowledged he had a very good night and nothing in the race is likely to change as a consequence of the debate. It's his race to lose. I just pointed out - correctly - that Hillary could have done him real long-term damage and took a pass.

You're the only one being vindictive and unfair here.

Posted by Tim K | February 21, 2008 11:43 PM

Tim K said:

Sorry, just want to correct something there. Although the Clinton campaign has implicitly made the argument that she is ready and he is not, it has been an implicit argument.

dude, I am so sorry. I have this terrible condition where I am able to read into implicit arguments and I imagine that what they are implying is what they actually mean. I know, I know... it's fucked up, but I have to live with it. If it means anything, I am only implicitly arguing that your reasoning is retarded so there should be no fear that any other poster will pick up on that fact and turn it against you.

Posted by TPH | February 21, 2008 11:46 PM

Obama Supporters

You sure are full of yourselves. If he is the nominee, can he win without her supporters? Most of you seem to think so. Great PR job. The great mystery of the race is the disconnect between Obama and his supporters especially on the Web. If he is so inspirational, why do most of you sound like bullies?

TLB

Your comment is perfect!

Posted by EWard | February 21, 2008 11:46 PM

I second mk's sentiment.

Posted by ikl | February 21, 2008 11:49 PM

I also thought two of the biggest moments of the debate were Clinton's "change you can xerox" moment and her final "we'll be fine" answer. However, it's already being noted elsewhere that her final answer was taken almost verbatim from a response that John Edwards used on the trail and in debates. Perhaps Clinton's use was sincere--it certainly struck me as a good moment for her at the time--but if her lifting of Edwards' line gets any attention, it makes her seem like an awfully big hypocrite...

Posted by Cass | February 21, 2008 11:50 PM

You're the only one being vindictive and unfair here.

Right, Tim K.

I see you've still learned nothing.

How long have you been posting here? The last couple weeks?

Almost all spent either making stuff up out of whole cloth and attacking not just Obama, but his voters and supporters. At every turn.

All the while, your candidate and her campaign got fairly nasty, behavior which you egged on.

And now you want people to take you seriously and give you a big group hug.

It's really not going to happen.

You can't continually call someone a cult member for a period of weeks and then expect them to embrace you and/or even take you at face value.

You're a serious piece of work - and I don't mean that as a compliment.

Even Andruw - a fervent, but decent Hillary supporter - called you on it yesterday.

At least listen to him if you won't listen to the "cult members."

This is ridiculous.

Posted by SoCalJustice | February 21, 2008 11:51 PM

If he is the nominee, can he win without her supporters?

Are you people actually Democrats, or just Hillary fans? If the former, THERE SHOULD BE NO QUESTION that you will support the Democratic nominee in the fall.

And that goes for the Obama supporters as well. Everybody needs to cut the crap about staying home and pouting in November. Either of our candidates is INFINITELY preferable to sleazy warmonger McCain.

Posted by Steve LaBonne | February 21, 2008 11:54 PM

TPH:

I have this terrible condition where I am able to read into implicit arguments and I imagine that what they are implying is what they actually mean

I'm not sure whether you are simply igorant about media and communications or are just playing dumb. Hopefully you're just being argumentative, otherwise it's pretty sad. But implicit arguments cannot be packaged into sound-bites, clips and quotes to be used in attack ads, by surrogates and in stump speeches. Tortured and complex arguments are difficult to get across to voters, as this campaign has demonstrated yet again. The fact Hillary has never come right out and called Obama unprepared does matter, regardless of what you think.

Posted by Tim K | February 21, 2008 11:55 PM

SoCalJustice:

No, frankly you're being a bit over the top.

Posted by Tim K | February 21, 2008 11:59 PM

EWard and TLB, if you support Hillary, my guess is that you are partisan Democrats. If you are suggesting that, by and large, partisan Democrats would stay home while hundreds of thousands of newcomers and independents attempted to carry your party's candidate to victory over McCain in November, that would be one stunning argument to make.

I would argue this is the first time in post-WWII history (certainly it is the first time since Kennedy in 1960) where a Democratic nominee would have this sort of trancendential appeal, including broad based and enthusiastic appeal with new voters. It is time to admit that their are very good reasons for this phenomenon that have nothing to do with (and are actually the opposite of) a cultist mindset.

Posted by T.K. | February 22, 2008 12:01 AM

The fact Hillary has never come right out and called Obama unprepared does matter, regardless of what you think

Not again, Tim K. Google is your friend.

This is Hillary yesterday:

"One of us is ready to be commander in chief," she told the crowd in New York. "Let's get real. Let's get real about this election, let's get real about our future, let's get real about what it is we can do together."

From:

As Crucial Tests Loom, Clinton Hits Harder
She Says Obama Isn't Ready to Be President
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/02/20/AR2008022002946.html

Your act is really, really tired.

Posted by SoCalJustice | February 22, 2008 12:03 AM

Over the top = someone calling you on your B.S.

I'm hardly the first person to do it here. It happens to you on almost every thread.

Posted by SoCalJustice | February 22, 2008 12:06 AM

SoCalJustice:

You're really the one who is beginning to get tiresome.

Find me the quote where she says "Senator Obama is not ready to be president." You won't find it. Whenever she is asked she says some variation on "I let the voters make that determination."

When somebody says "One of us is ready to be commander-in-chief" of course we all know what she was implying, but she never came out and said it. She didn't even say "... and one of us is not." Which she easily could have said.

Listen, clearly we disagree on this point. That's okay. Relax.

Wrap-Up

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