A Friend Indeed

John Hagee has some odd ideas about Jews that, as a Jewish person, make me uncomfortable. Jews, as most people know, have suffered a lot of persecution over the years. According to Hagee, we were getting what we deserved:

It was the disobedience and rebellion of the Jews, God's chosen people, to their covenantal responsibility to serve only the one true God, Jehovah, that gave rise to the opposition and persecution that they experienced beginning in Canaan and continuing to this very day.

Mark Kleiman points out that Abe Foxman didn't used to have much truck with this sort of thinking when it arrived in a different context, denouncing the "simplistic, counterproductive, biased and bigoted perception" as "blaming the victim" since "the cause of anti-Semitism is anti-Semites." But Hagee thinks anti-Semitism is God's justified punishment for the Jews. Thus when his organization succeeds in pressuring the U.S. and Israel to adopt a foreign policy that leads to Israel's destruction at the hands of a Russo-Arab alliance, the plan will finally be fulfilled.

What does Foxman have to say about all this Hageean nuttiness? He thinks it's just fine since Hagee's pro-Israel. Obviously, we're not supposed to give too much scrutiny to the content of Hagee's "pro-Israel" views since in an ordinary sense deliberately seeking the destruction of the Jewish state and the deaths of all its citizens wouldn't be considered an especially pro-Israel stance. I believe that even Hamas has sometimes hinted at a desire for an accommodation.

Comments

Rum world, eh?

Posted by Jeffrey Davis | March 7, 2008 9:32 AM

Your post is exactly the reason why people like Abe Foxman a joke. Al Gore is right. There has been an assault on reason in this country. Hasn't anyone pointed out to Foxman why exactly Hagee is pro-Israel? Hell, if this is the way jack asses like Foxman think, I expect Hamas and Hezbollah to get on the bandwagon pretty soon. I mean seriously, WTF????

Posted by Joe Klein's conscience | March 7, 2008 9:36 AM

The guy's a loon.

Posted by Jorge | March 7, 2008 9:36 AM

One of the thinks I like(d) about Andrew Sullivan's blog was that he'll follow a topic for a while, and kind of share his research with you.

I'm digging that on the Hagee stuff. It's easy to go find a nut job that supports a politician, but it 'makes it real' to see how that nut job has been tolerated and integrated. Kind of bracing, too.

Posted by Chuck | March 7, 2008 9:37 AM

I guess that Mr. Don Williams, Mr. RKU, Mr. Richard Steven Hack, Mr. otto, Mr. Saifedean, et al, like their pals in Gaza, must be dancing in the streets.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1204546422275&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Posted by SLC | March 7, 2008 9:38 AM

Now is my way clear, now is the meaning plain:
Temptation shall not come in this kind again.
The last temptation is the greatest treason
To do the right deed for the wrong reason.

-T.S. "sort of anti-semitic himself" Eliot
"Murder in the Cathedral"

Posted by Jeffrey Davis | March 7, 2008 9:40 AM

Hagee misses the point that it is God who will punish and reward Jews, we dont need US foreign policy to assist.

The reason that people might listen to Hagee, and not walk away, is that anti-semitism does come, in part, from the Jews not having a homeland for many generations and having to live in other countries as immigrants.

The Jew as immigrant is a fairly direct result of Gods "lo ammi" rejection.

Full circle, there's no special Christian reason to dislike immigrants, if they are good citizens.

Posted by kim, livonia, michigan | March 7, 2008 9:45 AM

deliberately seeking the destruction of the Jewish state and the deaths of all its citizens wouldn't be considered an especially pro-Israel stance.

That's quite a distortion. Hagee isn't "deliberately seeking the destruction" of Israel. He may happen to believe that one day Christ will return and everyone (including Jews) will either convert to Christ or die, but as long as that belief is just a FALSE predictive belief about the future, why the hell should anyone care, as long as Hagee supports the existence of Israel in the here and now?

Posted by John Doe | March 7, 2008 9:46 AM

Because Hagee seeks the invasion and destruction of Israel at the hands of Russians and Arabs, and wants it to happen as soon as possible, and this is not good foreign policy. Also, it's anti-Semitic. That's why.

Posted by The Puzzled Ibex | March 7, 2008 9:52 AM

Honestly, reading that, it's hard not to come to the conclusion that Foxman defines "anti-semitism" solely on whether or not you're hawkish or not on Israeli foreign policy.

(Which is ridiculously disturbing considering he's the head of the ADL, but there you go.)

Posted by Demosthenes | March 7, 2008 9:53 AM

Hagee isn't black, and McCain isn't black, so Russert doesn't care.

Posted by fjschmitz | March 7, 2008 9:55 AM

What I don't get is why is there a need to wait for the Russo-Arab alliance to form? Wouldn't it be far simpler to just wreak havoc on Israel ourselves? True, it wouldn't be the most noble thing to do, but if it hastens the Second Coming, well worth it, no? Seems kind of round about to try to effect Israeli policy to intern influence Russia and the Arabs to attack it.

Posted by MS | March 7, 2008 9:56 AM

Aside from the political aspects of Hagee's support, I just don't get the religious part of it. The standard response to the problem of evil is that God gave man free will, and as an inevitable byproduct, we get some humans doing evil.

But Hagee's idea seems to turn that on its head. The evil of the holocaust wasn't an inevitable byproduct of free will that God couldn't avoid, it was what God wanted to happen. It was a feature rather than a bug. So now how do you go back and reconcile this with the New Testament view of a loving God?

It turns religion into nothing more than a cosmic protection racket. You have to worship God not becuase he's loving or good--in fact he supports the most vile evil in human history. Rather, you have to worship God because if not, He'll smite you. "Nice life you've got there--shame if something happened to it."

It's all very strange to me. DOes he have some completely different theological underpinnings than every major church, or have he and his supporters just never really thought about their views that deeply?

Posted by Doug T | March 7, 2008 10:00 AM

Hagee supports Israel the way that an Inca priest supported a sacrifice before cutting his heart out.

In the Hagee world, the foundation of the state of Israel is a necessary step that must be completed before its destruction.

Hagee is no more anti-semitic than Farakhan, nor is he any less anti-semitic. McCain does not have to answer for Hagee's anti-Semitism because he is white. Farakhan's anti-semitism is significant according to the establishment media because white people beleive that his anti-semitism is only one aspect of his general anti-white racism.

Posted by PHB | March 7, 2008 10:00 AM

If an anti-Semite went on a killing spree to bring about the Apocalypse and called this pro-Israel, would Foxman buy that argument? He's completely forgotten the whole purpose of the ADL is to fight bigotry, including anti-Semitism, not to shill for foreign policy views that are more popular among Christian crazies and Jewish-Americans than actual Israelis. Most Jews don't even live in Israel and 15% of Israelis don't live there either. It's just sad how some actually smart people have dedicated their lives to defending a version of Israel that only exists in the minds of certain members of the diaspora. It's kind of tragic how so many older generations of Jewish thinkers can't separate Israel from their Jewish people in their minds and can't seem to adapt to a time when an increasing number of Jewish people worldwide are rejecting that idea.

Posted by Reality Man | March 7, 2008 10:01 AM

Re SLC's comment "I guess that Mr. Don Williams, Mr. RKU, Mr. Richard Steven Hack, Mr. otto, Mr. Saifedean, et al, like their pals in Gaza, must be dancing in the streets "
---------------
Go fuck yourself, SLC. You're no longer the amusing village idiot -- your claim that I would rejoice in the death of any innocent civilian is a vile insult.

Evil creates evil. Hamas and Likud are two scorpions determined to sting each other to death. You would drag America into that feud -- because your loyalty to a political cartoon is greater than your loyalty to your fellow American citizens or to your fellow Jews.

Your grief is fake -- someone who does not see the tragedy of a heartbroken Palestinian father cuddling his young son (killed in the crossfire of conflict) does not have the humanity to really feel grief for the Israelis killed in the latest bombing.

Not all deaths are regrettable, however. Those who rejoice in endless war --who sabotage attempts to make a reasonable peace -- deserve to die. And to scream in Hell for all eternity.

Posted by Don Williams | March 7, 2008 10:07 AM

Doug T, that's a very good point. You have to wonder if Hagee thinks Hitler was doing god's will. Hell, Stalin killed a lot of Jews too, so many that commie atheist was as well.

"Full circle, there's no special Christian reason to dislike immigrants, if they are good citizens.

Posted by kim, livonia, michigan | March 7, 2008 9:45 AM"

Reminds me of that Gandhi quote (paraphrasing), "I like your Christ, but not your Christians." It is amazing how obsessive Christian Europe was with making a small minority's life hell.

"Hagee supports Israel the way that an Inca priest supported a sacrifice before cutting his heart out."

Brilliant, PHB.

Posted by Reality Man | March 7, 2008 10:08 AM

From the link cited by Matthew:

"In a January 2007 conference call with Jewish bloggers, John Hagee explained that he and his fellow CUFI members were working to "organize every congressional district where every church in that district that is an evangelical church can be known to us so that if at a point in time someone in Congress or the US Senate proves to be hostile to Israel that we can lend our strength to retire them from public office."

Could someone explain to me how Hagee is able to keep his tax exempt status while engaged in a major POLITICAL campaign??

About a year ago, the Bush IRS threatened a Church with loss of tax exemption merely because the paster criticized the loss of life in the Iraq war.

Posted by Don Williams | March 7, 2008 10:15 AM

Wow, I wouldn't have thought my opinion of the ADL could sink any lower. What a ridiculous, hypocritical man Foxman is.

Posted by John | March 7, 2008 10:17 AM

"It was the disobedience and rebellion of the Jews, God's chosen people, to their covenantal responsibility to serve only the one true God, Jehovah, that gave rise to the opposition and persecution that they experienced beginning in Canaan and continuing to this very day."

Isn't this the gist of the Old Testament? I don't mean this as a defense of Hagee; it's more an indictment of Judaism and Christianity.

Posted by Rowz | March 7, 2008 10:26 AM

Re Don Williams

"Go fuck yourself, SLC. You're no longer the amusing village idiot -- your claim that I would rejoice in the death of any innocent civilian is a vile insult."

Gee, Mr. Williams is all bent out of shape because of what he considers to be a vile insult. In a previous thread, Mr. Williams suggested that I might possibly not be acquainted with the identity of my mother. Now, although I admit to having made personal attacks on Mr. Williams, I have refrained from such attacks on members of his family who are not responsible for the fact that he is a fucking cocksucker. And I will continue to exercise such restraint. I would suggest that Mr. Williams do likewise. He can insult me all he wants to, I'm a big boy and I can take it.

Now as to the substance of his statement that the State of Israel is being beastly towards the inhabitants of the Gaza Strip, the response is very simple. If there is no action (i.e. the inhabitants of the Gaza Strip refrain from firing qassems into Sderot and sending homicide bombers to blow up pizza parlors), there will be no reaction (i.e. targeted assassinations which result in collateral damage). That's the bottom line.

Posted by SLC | March 7, 2008 10:28 AM

One of the leit motifs of the Buckley eulogies to illustrate his "droll" side was his popularization of the phrase "Don't Let Them Immanentize the Eschaton." Apparently, Buckley's elk have decided that it wasn't immanentizing the Eschaton that was to be avoided. Rather it was that they should be the ones to do it.

The right is chockablock with nasty, irrational coalitions. Apparently the glue that holds them together is simply their nasty irrationality.

Posted by Jeffrey Davis | March 7, 2008 10:31 AM

I agree that what Hagee said r.e. the Jews was noxious and ridiculous. But isn't that basically what it says in the Old Testament of the Bible r.e. the Babylonian Captivity and all of the other bad things that happen to the Jews? The problem we seem to have in the current political atmosphere is that essentially every politician and pundit claims to respect Christianity, but some jerk spouts some crazy shit that's ACTUALLY IN THE BIBLE, people try to disavow it. So yeah, by a conservative, biblical approach, all of the bad things that have happened to the Jews were just punishment for their lack of devotion. In the world in which Hagee lives (and in which other, generally more reasonable people claim to live) Hitler was doing God's will just as much as the ancient Babylonians were. We can't really attack Hagee's beliefs without mentioning the book which gives him those beliefs.

Posted by Andy | March 7, 2008 10:33 AM

Jeffrey Davis:

William F Buckley had a herd of elk? Who knew? Did they subsist on Scotch and drolleries?

Posted by Pesto | March 7, 2008 10:53 AM

Foxman's response to Hagee is entirely instrumental. Hagee apparently believes the creation of a Jewish state in Greater Isreal is a precondition for the Rapture/Armageddon/Enormous Shitstorm of God. Foxman apparently believes Hagee is wrong. He supports Hagee's interim goal, and doesn't believe in the ultimate consequence that Hagee believes in. Because Hagee is a politically powerful moron, Foxman is willing to exploit his beliefs for his own ends.

Foxman's statements and his positions are shortsighted, hawkish, harmful to the American and Israeli people, and profoundly bigoted against Arabs and Muslims. But they are fairly easy to understand; it seems silly to pretend to be confused by them. It's especially disengenuous for someone as insightful as Matt, or other bloggers who have taken a similar line, to pretend that Foxman is blind to Hagee's anti-semitism. Better to engage Foxman's positions on their "merits."

Posted by FearItself | March 7, 2008 10:55 AM

why the hell should anyone care, as long as Hagee supports the existence of Israel in the here and now?

And just who in American politics, outside some fringe I haven't even noticed, does not "support the existence of Israel"? There is clearly a consensus on that much. So if that is all that is at issue, why cozy up to the crazies, rather than politely keep them at arms' length?

Posted by roac | March 7, 2008 11:02 AM

Obviously, we're not supposed to give too much scrutiny to the content of Hagee's "pro-Israel" views since... deliberately seeking the destruction of the Jewish state and the deaths of all its citizens wouldn't be considered an especially pro-Israel stance.

Slightly O/T -- but this is one of the most disturbing aspects of the most politically regressive fundamentalist evangelicals: Anything done in god's name or (as interpreted by one Hagee-type or another) as god's will, is permitted.

Since the Jews rejected their "covenantal responsibilities"; because they do not recognize Jesus as the Messiah, they're damned -- and so their deaths and the destruction of Israel is not only inevitable, but necessary, so that biblical prophesy (as interpreted by Hagee and his ilk) will be fulfilled, and Jesus return.

Essentially, Hagee and those like him believe Jews are getting only what they deserve. To no one's surprise, in one form or another this argument has been raised by some as justification for the Holocaust: It's god's judgement.

What's most disturbing to me about the level of consciousness exhibited by people like Hagee is that anything done for god, or which can be persuasively claimed as god's will, is permitted.

One can only wonder, if people like Hagee or Huckabee, Dobson or Ralph Reed, were in control of the United States, how long it would be before the homosexuals, the religious and ideological apostates, the 'rebellious and ungodly', would be imprisoned, or shoved into some modern anology of Reichsbahn boxcars. Because it's god's will.

Posted by Jemand von Niemand | March 7, 2008 11:10 AM

But isn't that basically what it says in the Old Testament of the Bible r.e. the Babylonian Captivity and all of the other bad things that happen to the Jews?

This gets brought up multiple times in every Hagee thread. Rebellion and disobedience by the Jews lead to punishment, followed by repentance, followed by forgiveness. Yes, yes, Jeremiah isn't big on the last two steps. Perhaps that's because he was urging the repentance step, and was in captivity in Babylon at the time. This was a captivity from which many Jews nevertheless later returned to rebuild Jerusalem, apparently with divine approval. I don't think most followers of rabbinical Judaism for the past two thousand years believed that everything bad that's happened to the Jews "continuing to the present day" is the fault of their disobedience and rebellion, especially when so many of them were neither. Hagee is blaming Jews for the Shoah because of their "disobedience and rebellion" of not converting to his version of Christianity. And it's disingenuous to keep using the "Old Testament" to suggest otherwise.

Likewise, Foxman and his apologists skip straight to the last stages of premillenial dispensationalism's End Times scenario, when the majority of the world's Jews are exterminated. Sure, Hagee can pray feverishly for that day to come quickly all he wants, as long as he supports militant Zionism in the meantime. But Hagee also believes that to get the End Times ball rolling, Israel must be attacked by an overwhelming force from which God miraculously saves them. And he wants American foreign policy to do its part to provoke that attack. If his dumbass Scofield fold-out charts and their butchery of Bible prophecy are wrong, Israel finds itself in a world of hurt. Fortunately, Hagee isn't pushing for an overwhelming attack on his country or ethnic / religious group. So in the event that the modern state of Israel isn't miraculously protected, he can go on being a repeatedly-proven-wrong mendacious shit like Hal "13 Members of the European Community" Lindsey. Presumably, Foxman will criticize a powerless left-wing fringe and non-Jewish, subhuman Semites for the consequences of the foreign policy he's championed. So it's all good, except for the Israel that they're all such a friend to.

Posted by mds | March 7, 2008 11:15 AM

SLC wrote: "If there is no action ... there will be no reaction"

He who cast the first stone probably didn't.

Posted by duffy | March 7, 2008 11:33 AM

But isn't that basically what it says in the Old Testament of the Bible

Nearly all rabbis and, last I heard, the Catholic Church too, have considered and rejected that interpretation of the Bible. Of course, Haggee is entitled to believe his bigoted interpretation.

Posted by Gary Sugar | March 7, 2008 11:42 AM

The standard response to the problem of evil is that God gave man free will, and as an inevitable byproduct, we get some humans doing evil. But Hagee's idea seems to turn that on its head. The evil of the holocaust wasn't an inevitable byproduct of free will that God couldn't avoid, it was what God wanted to happen. It was a feature rather than a bug. So now how do you go back and reconcile this with the New Testament view of a loving God?

Then how do any Christians reconcile God giving man free will with the New Testament view of a loving God? Why didn't God just make us autmatons instead so that we couldn't choose to commit evil? And how do any Christians reconcile the existence of natural evil (natural disasters and diseases) with the New Testament view of a loving God? How is natural evil a consequence of man's free will rather than God's chosen design for the universe?

Hagee's religious beliefs may not make sense, but they're no more nutty than those of other Christians.

Posted by Mixner | March 7, 2008 11:49 AM

THe larger picture is that: (1) Hagee is a Fundie millenial dispensalist nut who is thus perfectly aligned with right-wing fanatics in Israel as a rabid Christian Zionist. He is using his view to carve out a special niche with like-minded Fundies all for the greater wealth and power of John Hagee (2)The Real Zionists, the worst of them, see him as a useful fool that supports unlimited money and support of Israel, as well as complete cleansing of non-Jews from Israel to support his deranged End of Days beliefs. No matter how much damage it does America's interests. So they are happy to kiss his butt and give him "Head of State" VIP treatment and the full propaganda show on his frequent visits to Israel.

So Foxman is just happy to throw gasoline into it, and egg on a whack job segment of Christianity that has higher loyalty to the dreams of the Right Wing faction in Israel than he does to America.

More money? More Arms? Embrace the Israel Albatross because Jesus loves Jews and wants them in on the Rapture as the Chosen ones? Sure Hagee, we love you right back, especially since you are a useful idiot betraying his country and we Zionists think your Revelation beliefs are total crap and we should now, because our ancestors wrote the Biblical crap you spout. What? You're really into it just for your personal wealth and power? Fine! To be honest, blind US aid and backing enhances us real Zionist's wealth and power, too!

Posted by chris ford | March 7, 2008 11:50 AM

Abe Foxman is the Jewish version of a Jesuit who believes in the Church, not in God, and that whatever sustains the Church ismoral.

Posted by Gene | March 7, 2008 12:16 PM

Hagee's not pro-Israel. His nutty theology causes him to support policies that appear to be pro-Israel, but he also claims that God will kill Israeli leaders who do anything that disagrees with his master plan, including giving any part of Palestine to Palestinians.

He wants the Jews back to the Holy Land so that those who don't convert can be killed. He's said so openly. True supporters of Israel who ally with this guy are delusional.

Posted by Joe Buck | March 7, 2008 12:21 PM

Christians, Jews, and Moslems are all crazy. But so is everyone else. I'd rather go graze with Buckley's elk.

Posted by buddy66 | March 7, 2008 1:56 PM

Another post claiming that Hagee is working for the destruction of Israel, while proving nothing of the sort.

Posted by Dan | March 7, 2008 2:39 PM

Dan, if you do some work and click on the first link, you get this:

"In "Jerusalem Countdown: A Prelude To war" Hagee has stated that Jews brought the Holocaust upon themselves by rebelling against God and that the Holocaust was God's way of forcing Jews to move to Israel where, Hagee predicts according to his interpretation of Biblical scripture, they will be mostly killed in the apocalyptic Mideast conflict Hagee's new lobbying group seems to be working to provoke and which John Hagee believes to be a necessary precondition for the "Rapture" that will lift Christians, but not Jews, bodily into Heaven to enjoy physical immortality amidst paradise."

Posted by RICKM | March 7, 2008 2:51 PM

"In "Jerusalem Countdown: A Prelude To war" Hagee has stated that Jews brought the Holocaust upon themselves by rebelling against God ....

The doctrine that human beings brought evil and suffering on themselves through disobedience to God is standard, orthodox Christian teaching, often referred to as the "Fall of Man" and embodied in the Catholic notion of "Original Sin."

... which John Hagee believes to be a necessary precondition for the "Rapture" that will lift Christians, but not Jews, bodily into Heaven to enjoy physical immortality amidst paradise."

Again, there's nothing outrageous about this belief by the standards of Christian teaching. The Catholic Church, for example, teaches that "Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament."

Posted by Mixner | March 7, 2008 3:56 PM

Mixner-

There is a profound difference between holding the belief in an abstract doctrine like 'Original Sin' and articulating the specific belief that the Jews were asking for it.

Mixner wrote: "there's nothing outrageous about this belief [the rapture] by the standards of Christian teaching."

By the standards of reason, there is something perverse and moronic about taking joy in having a whole mass of people annihilated.

Posted by RICKM | March 7, 2008 4:15 PM

rickm,

There is a profound difference between holding the belief in an abstract doctrine like 'Original Sin' and articulating the specific belief that the Jews were asking for it.

Er, what, exactly, is this "profound difference" supposed to be? In what sense are the standard Christian doctrines of Original Sin and the Fall of Man "abstract," but not Hagee's beliefs about Jews? You're not making much sense.

Posted by Mixner | March 7, 2008 4:28 PM

The doctrine that human beings brought evil and suffering on themselves through disobedience to God is standard, orthodox Christian teaching, often referred to as the "Fall of Man" and embodied in the Catholic notion of "Original Sin."

Oh, well, then clearly Jews shouldn't have any problem with it. As long as it's orthodox Christian teaching to say the Jews poison wells... er, brought the Shoah on themselves.

(I do wish the first link hadn't been to yet another article that conflates the belief that most Jews will be exterminated at the end of the "Great Tribulation" with Hagee's belief in provoking a massive attack on Israel prior to the Rapture. He's not rooting for Jews to die in that one; in fact, he expects God to save them with magic pixie dust. How reassuring.)

Posted by mds | March 7, 2008 4:33 PM

Mixner-

The doctrine of Original Sin is the principle, and saying that Jews asked for the Holocaust is an application of that principle.

Posted by RICKM | March 7, 2008 4:38 PM

Oh, well, then clearly Jews shouldn't have any problem with it. As long as it's orthodox Christian teaching to say the Jews poison wells... er, brought the Shoah on themselves.

I didn't say that Jews shouldn't "have a problem" with it. I'm pointing out that the idea that Jews are disobedient to God and will not be "saved" is not exactly unorthodox Christian teaching. It's been pretty much the consistent teaching of Christianity for its entire 2,000-year history. This is news to you?

Posted by Mixner | March 7, 2008 4:41 PM

The doctrine of Original Sin is the principle, and saying that Jews asked for the Holocaust is an application of that principle.

So what? So is every other instance of evil attributed by Christianity to man's fallen nature resulting from disobedience to God.

Posted by Mixner | March 7, 2008 4:47 PM

Hagee's new lobbying group seems to be working to provoke

This is where my bullshit meter reacts.

All Christian beliefs are pretty outlandish.

Posted by Dan | March 7, 2008 6:08 PM

Jews, as most people know, have suffered a lot of persecution over the years. According to Hagee, we were getting what we deserved:

I wish Yglesias would either read the comments section from the last time he freaked out about about this particular belief of Hagee's or else read the Tanakh (Hebrew Bible) itself.

Yglesias is scared because Hagee believes "It was the disobedience and rebellion of the Jews, God's chosen people, to their covenantal responsibility to serve only the one true God, Jehovah, that gave rise to the opposition and persecution that they experienced beginning in Canaan and continuing to this very day."

Well, most of the latter books of the Tanakh say exactly that: God's people have suffered, suffer, and will suffer because of disobedience, and that suffering will be indefinite (2 Kings, 2 Samuel, 2 Chronicles, Ezekial, Jeremiah, Isaiah, etc, etc). To reiterate: this belief is not a central concept in the Christian New Testament; it's prevalence is in the Hebrew Bible.

There might be a good reason to fear Hagee, but if this is the primary motivating factor for fearing him, it's a primary motivating factor for fearing not only every observant Christian, but every observant Jew as well, unless the Tanakh is now abandoned in Judaism (which, as far as I know, it isn't.

Posted by Shinyk | March 7, 2008 6:55 PM

I just don't get the religious part of it. The standard response to the problem of evil is that God gave man free will, and as an inevitable byproduct, we get some humans doing evil.

Schism among Christian fundamentalists.

I seem to remember that, for instance, strict Catholics, and Opus Dei in particular (which is nothing like that Da Vinci Code guy makes it out to be--the primary difference between Opus Dei and other Catholicism is that Opus Dei accepts 'works' as necessary to the salvatory process, while the Catholic preaches only 'faith'), believe in free will.

Hagee seems to be a Dispensationalist. Dispensationalists don't believe in free will as you and I would understand it, preferring the paradox of predestination coexisting with divine judgment based on one's predestined actions.

You have to wonder if Hagee thinks Hitler was doing god's will. Hell, Stalin killed a lot of Jews too, so many that commie atheist was as well.

People like Hagee don't think of it that way. They like to think God has lowered his protective shield and allowed the Devil to work evil on Jews through demonic agents like Hitler.

Could someone explain to me how Hagee is able to keep his tax exempt status while engaged in a major POLITICAL campaign??

Very good point. Could someone also please explain how Michelle Obama's hospital can have non-profit status and still turn $1.5 billion in profit per year?

Posted by Shinyk | March 7, 2008 7:27 PM

It's been pretty much the consistent teaching of Christianity for its entire 2,000-year history. This is news to you?

No, but when it becomes dominant in the official policies of a government, it hasn't traditionally been hailed in the Jewish community as "pro-Jewish." And in a secular democracy, we were hoping to move away from such "orthodox" beliefs, not have our leaders scramble to kiss the behinds of those who proclaim them loudly and proudly. I miss the days of Washington's letter to the Newport Hebrews.

To reiterate: this belief is not a central concept in the Christian New Testament; it's prevalence is in the Hebrew Bible.

Everyone e-mail your rabbis! Shinyk is here to inform us that "Because of our sins we were punished" is supposed to apply regardless of whether Jews are following the Law or not, which will be quite a bombshell, especially in the Orthodox community. And blaming the Shoah on the Jews because they didn't convert to Christianity is straight out of the Hebrew Bible. Wow, and all this time I've been considering Hagee a semiliterate religious ignoramous, what with his idiotic Darbyite prophecies. Yet all along he's based his views on Jews on his deep understanding of Judaism. I owe the man an apology. Jews are to be punished whether they keep the Law or not (except for magical protection for Israel against a particular overwhelming attack), until most of them are slaughtered and the remnant become Christian. I'm ashamed to have missed that in Ezekiel until now.

Posted by mds | March 7, 2008 8:38 PM

Shinyk is here to inform us that "Because of our sins we were punished" is supposed to apply regardless of whether Jews are following the Law or not, which will be quite a bombshell, especially in the Orthodox community.

I'm not informing you of how to interpret any doctrine or theorizing about how Jews should practice your faith. In fact, I'm not telling you anything you don't know if you've read the Hebrew Bible.

If you take umbrage with the concept that "the suffering of God's people is caused by disobedience to God," you and your Rabbi need to take it up with Ezekial, Jeremiah, Isaiah, and whomever wrote 2 Kings, 2 Samuel, 2 Chronicles, Genesis and Exodus (though I suspect your Rabbi has read all those books and already knows what they say).

In fact, "the suffering of God's people is caused by disobedience to God" is the main theme of all of those books save 2 Chronicles, Genesis and Exodus (which contain this theme, but also contain quite a bit more). Reconcile the contents of your own books; I'm not the one who believes in the fantasies of desert people from three thousand-years ago.

But don't take my word for it, go read them yourself.

until most of them are slaughtered and the remnant become Christian

I never said that, nor did I say Ezekial said that. If you'll check the quotation in the Yglesias post, it doesn't say that either. If you want to talk about Revelations, you should do so in a post that quotes this crazy Reverend talking about Revelations, instead of a post that trembles at the horror of this crazy Reverend accurately paraphrasing half the books in the Hebrew Bible.

Because of our sins we were punished" is supposed to apply regardless of whether Jews are following the Law or not,

I also never said the Hebrew Bible said that.

all this time I've been considering Hagee a semiliterate religious ignoramous, what with his idiotic Darbyite prophecies.

He is, but the quote doesn't prove it.

Posted by Shinyk | March 7, 2008 9:47 PM

"I guess that Mr. Don Williams, Mr. RKU, Mr. Richard Steven Hack, Mr. otto, Mr. Saifedean, et al, like their pals in Gaza, must be dancing in the streets."

Well, since apparently the target location is in fact the center of the radical settler movement, I guess so. Clearly the target site was chosen carefully.

Nasrallah said you'd hear from him over the Mughniyeh assassination - maybe this was one of his responses.

That said, it's clear that Israel did the Mughniyeh hit precisely to stimulate this sort of response from Hizballah, which they will then use to justify an attack on Lebanon and Syria - and Gaza as well.

Israel is clearly at this time ratcheting up the tensions in the ME. And Bush and Cheney are assisting by sending three more warships to the Med off Lebanon and the Cole into the Persian Gulf.

It is beginning to look like Scott Ritter was right in assessing March or April as the likely time for an attack on Iran.

I suspect Israel is planning to invade Gaza, and at the same time or earlier to attack Lebanon and Syria. I suspect Cheney and Israel are trying to "double down" in the ME while Bush is still in office, thus leaving a "fait accompli" in the hands of the next President - who, whether it is Obama or Clinton - will be loath to reverse the course for fear of being labeled "anti-Semitic".

Unfortunately for Israel, this will leave them in the unenviable position of having committed the classic military error - the "two-front war". Israel has fought two-front wars before, but that was against conventional (and worthless) Arab armies. This will be against a tough guerrilla opponent (Hizballah) and a more modern Syrian military who will be using Hizballah tactics.

Israel will lose this one.

Posted by Richard Steven Hack | March 8, 2008 3:08 AM

"Then how do any Christians reconcile God giving man free will with the New Testament view of a loving God? Why didn't God just make us autmatons instead so that we couldn't choose to commit evil?"

Would you find that preferable? Why?

Besides in a way the Earth existed like that for millions of years. The trilobites didn't exactly have the will to do good or evil so far as we know. The ability to choose makes the choice have meaning.

"And how do any Christians reconcile the existence of natural evil (natural disasters and diseases) with the New Testament view of a loving God?"

This is at times difficult. Although natural evils can encourage empathy and learning. Learning from floods helped the rise of agriculture in Egypt. Pain is something almost all humans share. We can not communicate with an infant who dies painfully after birth but we can empathize with the feeling of suffering and loss. (Okay that's from Frank Pembleton on the "Subway" episode) We would not have as great a desire to understand our bodies and minds if it weren't for the fact both can be damaged. Natural evils also are a reminder of our shared humility and fragility. In "Groundhog Day" he briefly states he is "a God", but his inability to save the homeless man kills that delusion. Likewise the knowledge that nature can do things we still can't is a reminder of our own smallness in the Universe. In addition to that Christians believe in an afterlife so not all justice or good has to be in this one.

All that's probably of small comfort, but bear in mind I'm writing this at 6:50 AM or so.

"How is natural evil a consequence of man's free will rather than God's chosen design for the universe?"

One argument could be that there is no "natural evil" in a world where nothing has a real understanding of pain or death or deprivation or justice. Was the extinction of the dinosaurs "evil"? Why, who says? Although some religious people concede that evil exists before mankind. The devil is usually believed to predate humans, for example.

Posted by Thomas R | March 8, 2008 7:52 AM