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Fantasy Camp

21 Mar 2008 04:24 pm

Let me highlight something from the Politico article:

Clinton’s top supporters, including her husband, have suggested in recent days that amassing more votes than Sen. Barack Obama, while it has no formal meaning, could offer a key rationale for laying claim to the nomination. The theory: Winning the popular vote might give party leaders known as superdelegates a reason to take the nomination away from Obama, who is virtually sure to earn more pledged delegates.

The assumption here is that superdelegates who have not yet endorsed Clinton are actually harboring a secret, unexpressed desire to overturn the outcome of the delegate-selection process and hand the nomination to her. These people are just waiting to be given a reason to do it.

The thing is: That's crazy. Hillary started out with a huge lead in superdelegates because she got a treasure trove of early endorsements. Guess why? Because her husband used to be President and party figures had every reason to offer her early endorsements. Since that time, all the superdelegate momentum's been toward Obama because, guess what, the people who didn't line up behind Clinton early are people who don't want Clinton to win! I know reality gets distorted in the midst of a campaign, but they're really deluded if they can't see that.

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Comments (138)

i'm probably going to simply give up on posting about this, but for an exceedingly smart lad, matthew, every so often, demonstrates a remarkable naivete.

the purpose of the rhetoric emananting out of the clinton camp is to keep the race alive in the hopes that something happens to swing it to them, not to provide carefully honed analytic gems that withstand scrutiny.

as for the people who didn't line up behind clinton early: perhaps they simply didn't subscribe to the inevitability theorem, instead believing, as so many of us did, that the democratic party had 3 able candidates so let's see what happens.

if they really didn't want clinton to win, the undecided superdelegates could settle the race right now, simply by announcing for obama. amazingly enough, they haven't done that either.

does that mean they don't want obama to win, either? (perhaps the remaining superdelegates are all john edwards fans, or maybe they want to band together and bring back kerry?)

i've noted before that i support obama on the grounds of opposing dynastic succession, but really: there is no data set that can prove, one way or the other, who will run a better race against john mccain. clinton remains in the race precisely because she - and millions of democrats - think she is the answer to that question.

the undecided superdelegates appear to be as uncertain as i on the matter; when they achieve certainty, we'll have a nominee. until then, drawing the conclusion that they don't support clinton because they haven't yet supported clinton is...well, i don't want to say it's deluded, because there's a reasonable chance that it's accurate, but at a minimum, it's overstated....

Hillary started out with a huge lead in superdelegates because she got a treasure trove of early endorsements. Guess why? Because her husband used to be President and party figures had every reason to offer her early endorsements. Since that time, all the superdelegate momentum's been toward Obama because, guess what, the people who didn't line up behind Clinton early are people who don't want Clinton to win!

Amen to that, brother.....

"i'm probably going to simply give up on posting about this, but for an exceedingly smart lad, matthew, every so often, demonstrates a remarkable naivete."

You say naiveté, I say intellectual dishonesty.

I've been in blog comments trying to draw attention to this for a couple weeks.

No one runs the numbers. She'll need all 25-30 percent blowouts to win:

www.slate.com/features/delegatecounter/

Even with MI and FL, she'll need blowouts.

It's weird that almost no one talks about this.

Lovely, the guy who insists we should use a popular vote count that includes Michigan is accusing someone else of intellectual dishonesty. Nice.

I have been supporting Obama and voted for him in the NJ primary, but if the Wright revelations, fairly or unfairly, continue to produce indications that his electability has been vitiated, I will shift to supporting Clinton. I would hope that many superdelegates share that view.

I imagine what Matt writes is largely true,
but I can see a flaw: if most of those superdelegates who are now uncommitted (about 260 of them) are sure they prefer Obama, they could come
out and endorse him, as Bill Richardson just did.


I write this as a fervent and annoying Obama supporter, but isn't it also possible that the reason a large portion of superdelegates didn't come out for Hillary early is because they didn't think it would matter or they didn't know they were a superdelegate or they didn't know what superdelgates do and they didn't want to embarrass themselves in front of their superdelegate friends?

You say naiveté, I say intellectual dishonesty.

You know, the practice of flatly insulting the intelligence or judgement of one's opponent here is getting really stale. If you must do it, can you guys at least try to season your patronizing attitude with some insight or wit?

"Lovely, the guy who insists we should use a popular vote count that includes Michigan is accusing someone else of intellectual dishonesty. Nice."

I've never tried to sugar coat the problems with the January MI vote, which is why I was on the side of the Michigan Democratic Party and the DNC in wanting a legitimate re-vote.

You, on the other hand, seem to stand with the Obama campaign in seeking to prevent a legitimate re-vote. Fuck the Democrats of Michigan. Fuck winning the general election. We want the candidate of General Electric and Marty Peretz, and we don't care if we have to steal the nomination against the will of the Democratic voters to get what we want.

-----

The nice thing about being on the same side as the majority of the Democratic electorate is that I don't have to make intellectually dishonest arguments to say why I think Clinton is the rightful nominee.

Letting everyone vote benefits Clinton. Keeping everyone from voting benefits Obama.

There is no more intellectually honest statement one could make at this point.

Two things: JJ: Yes you're absolutely right. She's failed to get the numbers needed for the nomination and she's behind in delegates. A corallary though, Obama is ahead in delegates but he has ALSO failed to get the necessary numbers to lock the nomination. He had his chance in Ohio and Texas and failed to close the deal. Neither of them have earned the nomination so it's still up in the air. His lead does give him a powerful arguement.

Matt: I think your reading of this is unfair. I understand you don't like Clinton and all but lets not go Sullivan here.
All that Clintons supporters are outlining here is the way she can win the nomination. They're not talking much about how likely it is. If Hillary can gain the lead in popular votes then she has an arguement to make to the super delegates. If Obama's speech was not sufficient to reassure voters or if some other event occurrs and he is suffering in the pols for the General that would give the Supers a reason. With an arguement and a reason together Hillary could take the nomination. Whether this is likely or not is open to opinion but I find nothing dishonest or delusional about it.

We want the candidate of General Electric...

What's your GE source?

I assume you're talking about contributions given by individuals who work for or manage at GE, not GE itself. Because Barack Obama does not accept contributions from PACs and lobbyists, while Hillary Clinton does accept those contributions.

The implication seems to be that Obama is the candidate of corporate America, and I find that hard to accept. Obama accepted Edwards' challenge and has renounced that corporate money, while Hillary has not.

"If you must do it, can you guys at least try to season your patronizing attitude with some insight or wit?"

Sure. Matt jumped the shark from advocacy into intellectual dishonesty when he attributed Clinton's Ohio victory to racism. He's kept up his patter of intellectual dishonesty about the nomination battle ever since.

And guess what? it's resulted in him getting regular face time on General Electric's TV outlet.

May not be witty, but that's some insight into how the Beltway professional Democrat class functions.

These people are just waiting to be given a reason to [endorse Clinton]. The thing is: That's crazy.

Well then what the hell are they doing? If they're even leaning towards Obama at this point, while the entire pundit class grouses about the need for a nominee RIGHT NOW, what is the marginal benefit of holding off?

I've never tried to sugar coat the problems with the January MI vote

But you happily use it in your skewed popular vote count, while ignoring caucus states that held legitimate votes but didn't report popular vote totals.

John was pretty clearly addressing your math, not your position on Michigan revotes, wasn't he?

The nice thing about being on the same side as the majority of the Democratic electorate is that I don't have to make intellectually dishonest arguments to say why I think Clinton is the rightful nominee.

There is a certain perfection to this argument in that it is both internally coherent and complete bullshit at the same time. You, sir are a master of your craft. Whether this is a craft worth mastering, however...

You hit on the problem when you mention "reality."

Howard, I think the problem for some of the remaining supers is spin--Clinton, with the help of the media, is spinning this as a close nailbiter. If they come out and say "oh give up already, sore loser" the Clintons will spin it as pre-emptive, stealing it from poor Hillary who was only down by a few hundred delegates, who might have pulled it out, they counted her out after NH and look what happened....The perception of a stolen nomination is an election-killing risk. That's why the odds that they would hand her the nomination and send Obama to the back of the bus are infinitesimal. But she can use that same perception as a threat--drive her out of the race and she'll cry she was robbed, even if the means to do it are precisely the means she wants to use on Obama.

"we don't care if we have to steal the nomination against the will of the Democratic voters to get what we want" --Petey
We really need rotfl smileys in here....Obama is winning. That is the whole problem for the Hillary people; if she were winning, then you wouldn't have a problem with all those pesky people making the "intellectually dishonest" argument that we should use the rules we started with, rather than deciding 50 minutes into the game that field goals shouldn't count, but first downs are retroactively worth 10 points.

Who would you rather have pick USSC justices, Clinton or McCain?

No progressive can opt for the latter.

Obama is ahead in delegates but he has ALSO failed to get the necessary numbers to lock the nomination.

But how happy will the Democratic base be to have their votes overturned by fiat of the party elites? Good for the morale of the party? If you try to spin it "yes," I'm going to vomit. And how successful would a general election candidate be who earned the nomination in that way?

As Jon Chait put it, if she tries the kinds of tricks her campaign wants to try to win the nomination she won't "be in a position to defeat Hitler's dog in November, let alone a popular war hero."

Okay, everyone who wants to spin the popular vote, or make ad hominem attacks -- please skip this comment.

The question that interests me right now is not a "should" question, it's a "what's happening" question.

Let me just draw your attention to the latest post on TPM, titled "Acceptance?"

I'm surprised to be thinking this, but today it seems to me that there's some possibility that this thing is either over, or soon to be over. I know there are people who write on comment threads who are still convinced that this is all excellent news for Hillary. But you know what? That will still be true next March, because a lot of rather zealous people post on comment threads. (I know -- it's shocking!)

The question that interests me is whether something is happening to Hillary's perceived chances in the wider world -- starting with journalists. I'm not sure. But I will say that the fact that JMM has weighed in on this seems to me to count for something. A lot of people in the MSM read that blog.

I'll also say that I've noticed an interesting degree of relative silence from the Clinton camp lately -- except on the topics of MI and FL. Almost as if they knew that was their last shot. I could be projecting. But I'm putting it out there for what it's worth.


"I assume you're talking about contributions given by individuals who work for or manage at GE, not GE itself."

No, I'm not talking about monetary contributions. I'm talking about the in-kind contributions of favorable coverage.

If you're not able to figure this out yourself, there have been several studies out so far this cycle showing how GE has been providing significantly more favorable coverage for Obama and significantly more negative coverage for Clinton than the other news networks.

"The implication seems to be that Obama is the candidate of corporate America, and I find that hard to accept."

The "implication" is that General Electric, which has led a multi-decade crusade against universal healthcare and Social Security, sees in Obama an opportunity to further their interests.

I don't blame GE. They're doing what's in the interests of GE Healthcare and GE Financial. I blame the "Democratic" fellow travelers who are aiding and abetting GE in their attempt to take the nomination away from the choice of Democratic voters.

Here's the link for "Acceptance," by the way:

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/184883.php

Letting everyone vote benefits Clinton. Keeping everyone from voting benefits Obama.

There is no more intellectually honest statement one could make at this point.


Do you realize the problem with this reasoning? Obama wasn't on the ballot in Michigan. Revoting can only help him since anyone not named Clinton got 42% of the vote. Do you really think Clinton would get 58% of the vote again given a choice between the two of them? Michigan is the one place where a revote(while yes, she is advocating it) can only hurt her, not him(the rest of the stuff is just political gamesmanship).

Hillary is hanging in there because there is a small, but non-zero, chance that Obama's candidacy might implode in a big way, and she wants to be the natural alternative if that occurs. She's probably hoping that the Wright thing turns out to be an implosion-in-slow-motion, but we won't really know until at least PA and NC come around.

She's trying to rhetorically keep things alive to give a plausible justification for why she's simply waiting for a fortunate disaster to happen, not because she'll ever pick up enough delegates to win under most any circumstances.

Even if she seated Florida and Michigan, she would still have to win every race by 20 point margins. Clinton is going to win North Carolina by 20 points? That's laughable. If she doesn't seat Florida and Michigan, she'll need to win every race by close to 30 points.

Of course she can always get the party elite superdels to back her. Then she'd be wearing a latte liberal "kick me" sign for the whole general election.

Newsflash: The debate about FL and MI revotes is over. There will not be revotes in either state. The MI legislature has adjourned. We can continue to argue about the issue -- and if you like, we can still be arguing next March -- but it's moot.

Petey says:Matt jumped the shark from advocacy into intellectual dishonesty when he attributed Clinton's Ohio victory to racism

Pennsylvania Gov. Ed Rendell has said that some white voters aren't ready to elect a black candidate. Is he intellectually dishonest?

Clinton surrogates often argue that Obama voters will support her in the Fall while HRC voters will not support Obama. Why won't they support him while African-Americans and wine drinkers will support HRC? Is it the health insurance mandates?

And I think Matt gets more face time on News Corp's TV outlet. Rupert Murdoch loves the Clintons -- the Telecommunications Act, you know.

I'm always struck by the argument that Clinton has to convince "the superdelegates"

Even if the currently unpledged superdelegates lean toward Obama or against Clinton, which I suspect may not be true, Clinton doesn't have to convince "the superdelegates", she has to convince 65 or 70% of the superdelegates, which strikes me as vastly different.

She doesn't have to convince the superdelegates to overturn the delegate leader. She has to convince a landslide majority of unpledged superdelegates to do so.

To say Obama and Clinton both need the superdelegates to clinch omits the fact that if Obama gets 40% of the unpledged superdelegates and Clinton gets 60%, Obama wins.

The kind of argument Clinton would need to convince 51% of the superdelegates to give her the nomination in opposition to the pledged delegate leader is different from the kind of argument she would need to convince 70% of them.

I don't blame GE. They're doing what's in the interests of GE Healthcare and GE Financial. I blame the "Democratic" fellow travelers who are aiding and abetting GE in their attempt to take the nomination away from the choice of Democratic voters.

And you think Hillary is pure as the driven snow? What corporations are given her money or in-kind contributions?

Why did the (failed, it seems) Michigan revote proposal include a provision disqualifying voters who voted in the January Republican primary? What was the purpose of that?

"But I will say that the fact that JMM has weighed in on this seems to me to count for something"

Obama sealed up the support of the blogosphere several months ago.

But the support of the upscale faction of the Party hasn't been enough to drag along those pesky Democratic, y'know, voters.

The better Clinton does among the Democratic electorate, the more the upscale goo-goos scream that she's a monster. Democracy ain't their thing.

I see it like this:

1. Obama will be the nominee.
2. Party insiders, including superdelegates, have known this for some time.
3. The press hasn't reported this fact, meaning that a lot of regular democratic voters don't realize it's true.
4. Given points 1, 2, and 3, the challenge faced by party insiders -- including SDs in particular -- is how to manage the process by which Obama actually receives the nomination. The chief obstacle they face is that they cannot afford to alienate HRC supporters who still think she has a chance to win by declaring the process over before everybody has voted.
5. Until recently, the indications seemed to be that an extended primary season was helping the democrats, so the thinking was to just let the process play out.
6. Now that has changed: McCain is surging in the polls, and it's increasingly clear that an extended primary is hurting Obama as a candidate.
7. Once this sinks in, the SDs will declare, force HRC to concede, and Obama will get the nomination. Before Pennsylvania, I predict.

"...and he is suffering in the pols for the General that would give the Supers a reason. With an arguement and a reason together Hillary could take the nomination. Whether this is likely or not is open to opinion but I find nothing dishonest or delusional about it." --Minnesota

This still comes down to them throwing her the nomination even though he won it. And: polls? He's down in the polls so he doesn't get the nomination, voters be damned? Sorry, that seems to verge toward delusion.

Let's take it as happening, though: Something so horrible that a vast majority of dems will agree that a different nominee is needed. That's already allowed for, as Mr. Ickes so graciously reminds us about the pledged delegates, you know, not going to jail or anything if they switch their votes. And all the supers can switch their votes. With the votes she's earned to date plus all the supers, she can be given the nomination if a true crisis were to arise. She could stop right now, withdraw, and still be the first person the party would turn to in an emergency. So, why is she still in?

That argument requires something almost everyone can agree calls for overturning the voters, of course. A slim majority after a fight on the convention floor, by definition, has not met that standard.


By the way, I know everyone likes throwing the popular vote around, and the problems with it involve basic understanding of math and statistics which rules out an unfortunately large part of the country, but I'll say it anyway: The popular vote measured over primaries held by different rules in each state is pretty meaningless. Caucus states are undercounted. And that's not their fault: no one told them we might change rules halfway through the election if Clinton turned out to be losing by the first rules.

Petey,
i gotta say, as a longtime admirer of yours (re: Edwards), you are mother fucking wrong here. Your acting like a petulant child and throwing jabs around at people in both this (and other) thread(s), and at Matt himself, for no fucking reason.

I'll also say, I am a clinton supporter. You are being a little baby.

The better Clinton does among the Democratic electorate, the more the upscale goo-goos scream that she's a monster. Democracy ain't their thing.

Huh? How twisted is this? Who has the most votes? By any count?

What are you, a non-reality based Republican?

As I mentioned earlier, I'm really working at not vomiting.

"Why did the (failed, it seems) Michigan revote proposal include a provision disqualifying voters who voted in the January Republican primary? What was the purpose of that?"

To comply with DNC rules.

But I assume you knew that already.

-----

And, of course, the re-vote has "failed, it seems" entirely due to opposition from the Obama campaign.

The Michigan Democrats were on board. The DNC was on board. The Clinton campaign was on board.

The Obama campaign knows they're going to lose pretty much every contest between now and June, which is why they're desperate to avoid a re-vote. They know full well that elections are not their friend.

Even if you count the popular vote totals for the January Florida & Michigan primaries (i.e., 328k votes for Clinton, zero for Obama), is there any way Clinton can take the popular vote lead after the remaining primaries?

I think we should determine the nomination not by primary votes, but rather by what exit polling tells us about how Democrats voted in the primaries. Also, goo-goo, Peretz, General Electric, MANDATES!!!

All right, Petey, use the delegate counter and tell us how Clinton gets the delegate count--even with Florida and Michigan.

Rich, if that's all the conviction you have that Obama is only valuable for his ability to beat McCain, then I'd suggest you quit being coy and just go ahead and vote for Clinton.

But I wouldn't suggest you broadcast your weak-kneed reason as a sound justification without expecting to get slammed for it.

If we haven't got the guts to back the person who's got the most character, integrity, intelligence and adaptability for the presidency, for no other reason than his electability, then we deserve Hillary Clinton and nothing better...that is, we deserve another mediocre non-solver working within a political system that still supports the idea that anything and everything you can throw at somebody to win an election is justified, including giving the other party's candidates fodder for the general election.

In other words, Bush-Cheney Lite. In other words, disgraceful.

Personally, I'd rather lose mightily with Obama than vote for someone else because my candidate was "fairly or unfairly" slandered. Or made guilty by association for someone else's views...and without looking at the whole picture.

Winning isn't everything. Winning with integrity is.

So if your comments are representative of how low our expectations have sunk...well, that's a pretty sad statement.

Gov Bill Richardson today laid out a wonderfully straightforward rationale for why he supported Obama. It's worth listening to...I think these guys are cut from the same whole cloth.

I think we should determine the nomination not by primary votes, but rather by what exit polling tells us about how Democrats voted in the primaries.

Yetep--that would be fine, except for a little thing called, um, VOTES, which can be pretty important in a democracy.

i'm going to make one more comment on this and then bow out, because nothing is more dispiriting than these obama/clinton foodfights.

matthew made a statement that is completely wrong: that it's crazy to assume that superdelegates would vote for clinton, because if they intended to, they would have done so already.

he couldn't possibly be wronger, because if what he said were true, than the superdelegates would already have settled the race and they haven't.

the fact that it's an enormous uphill climb for clinton at this point is neither here nor there; the notion that if clinton won because of superdelegates she couldn't beat hitler's dog couldn't be more nonsensical (does no one ever study history? hubert humphrey won the '68 nomination despite not running in a single primary, the democratic party was splintering over vietnam, george wallace was taking away the south, and yet, with all that against him, he very nearly won that election) and makes me disinclined to read jon chait ever again; the idea that clinton has some obligation to drop out because obama is the most perfectest candidate ever and clinton is merely some annoyance in the way of his annointment is an insult to the millions of dems who have voted for her.

the odds are extremely high that obama wins this, perhaps by the process that Anon at 5:34 outlines; if that's what happens, so be it.

but if it were a given that that will happen, it would and could have happened already.

Deborah, if the case that obama has won the nomination is as clearcut as people like matthew contend, then there is no "stealing" if the superdelegates line up for obama and end this thing, which is why i personally don't think that it's simply a matter of superdelegates being afraid of being perceived as a group of crooks, denying the popular will. i would instead suggest that the popular will is quite evenly split, and that's why the undecided superdelegates remain so.

I think Anon's seven-step summary of what's happening right now has it exactly right.

"And you think Hillary is pure as the driven snow?"

No. I think Clinton is a pretty flawed candidate who is still noticeably the lesser of two evils by virtue of her courageous willingness to stand up for universal healthcare, knowing full well it would bring the wrath of General Electric down on her.

GE was pretty friendly to Clinton in the first nine months of 2007. It was only when she came out for the Edwards universal healthcare plan and refused to pander to Tim Russert on Social Security that GE shifted course and trained its guns on her.

It's over. The superdelegates are not going to save her, and after Super Tuesday they were never going to save her. The Clintons have screwed a lot of Dems over in the 90s and the party did poorly under Bill's tenure. No one in the party wants to go back to those times.

It's time to cut her microphone because this charade is wasting a lot of money that could be better spent for congressional races.

To comply with DNC rules.

I didn't know that, thanks. But I don't understand it. Why would the DNC not want Democrats who voted in the January primary to be able to vote in the revote? That doesn't make sense to me.

The Obama campaign knows they're going to lose pretty much every contest between now and June

Here's something else I don't understand (I know, I'm dense). How does it matter? Can Clinton take the lead in pledged delegates in the remaining primaries? None of the analysis I've seen shows that she can. Re-votes in Florida and Michigan would have netted Obama more, not less, delegates, right?

(Unfortunately it no longer goes without saying on this blog in this season, but I'm sincerely asking for info here, not trying to be a jerk.)

Obama sealed up the support of the blogosphere several months ago. But the support of the upscale faction of the Party hasn't been enough to drag along those pesky Democratic, y'know, voters. The better Clinton does among the Democratic electorate, the more the upscale goo-goos scream that she's a monster. Democracy ain't their thing.

It must be hard being a Clinton supporter when basically no informed Democrats who aren't on her payroll support the Senator.

You have my sympathies.

Petey, Dec. 21

I'm kinda disagreeing with Big Blog on this one. I see no reason for Hillary not to stay in until Obama get's 50% + 1, like practically every 2nd place person does in a contest, most recently Huckabee. Jesse Jackson took it to the convention in 88, IIRC, and it was his right to do so, and it did make the convention more exciting. And the best measure of legitimacy for superdelegates to take into account for choosing a candidate (besides their own preference) *is* total votes, across all primaries and caucuses. Obama's nixing a revote in Michigan is a decision every bit as cynical and wrong-headed as the wrong decisions Clinton has made.

To my mind, the recent downturn in the polls is not because Clinton's still in the race, but because there have been no debates recently, so the broadcast media has controlled the storyline, and they like McCain. Obama made some really good speeches, but it's not clear how much they cut through the chatter.

By not agreeing to more debates, not agreeing to Michigan, etc. I think Obama to some extent is playing prevent defense, and it's not the right thing to do, nor is it helping his campaign.

Re: Anon's seven-step summary:

Exactly right, I should say, except for the last part. I'm not sure that anyone really has the power to bring this to a close before PA. The media is having too much fun pretending it's a horserace. It's going to start becoming clearer that it's a loooongshot, and that party elders would like it to be over. But I don't know when it *will* be over.

Matt's post hits on exactly what I've thought, and commented on from time to time, for quite some time.

Of course HRC would have a huge advantage with SDs, given that many owe their position to her and Bill. It is inconceivable that there is a large, but undeclared, pro-Hillary contingent of superdelegates; there is simply no tactical or strategic reason for them to have held back this long (especially since the large early lead in SDs for HRC helped foster the "inevitability" meme). Thus, it stands to reason that they are not pro-Hillary, and will only support her if circumstances dictate no other option or when it becomes safe to declare for Obama (and that time is now becoming more and more apparent, btw).

~

The other mistake that tends to be made about the SDs is to treat them as some monolith - as in, "Hillary can win them over by winning the popular vote". The undeclared SDs don't sit around huddling in a room talking amongst themselves, waiting to declare en masse. They are a disparate group who have individual preferences and foibles, and each may be convinced to declare for any number of reasons. The idea that the undeclared SDs have colluded to wait for some magic moment (eg. a popular vote winner, etc) to suddenly anoint a winner is pretty deluded.

Jon Chait's "Hitler's dog" comment is made in the context of a few other tricks Clinton, Penn, and company have mentioned that they might put into practice, in addition to the superdelegate grab.

They know full well that elections are not their friend.


are you high right now?

how in gods name can someone supporting Clinton's campaign write this tripe after her- nay, Penn's- Campaign, blithley undersold the significance of every "election" between Super-Tuesday and the Ohio and Texas Primaries? How in the world? literally, what gaul does it take to write these things with a straight face?

Yeah, well, I guess that's what happens when you vote for the less-popular candidate... they take the nomination away from you. Or something like that.

So now we understand why Senator Clinton's didn't bother to stand for anything during her campaign.

She didn't think she had to run on any particular message since she's running for re-election to be First Lady.

Petey, Dec. 13

I have little passion for either candidate, but at this point I really want Obama to win if only to see whether Petey will keep his solemn pledge, which I remember well, to go to the mattresses for whomever the nominee turns out to be (a pledge made in response to criticisms of his habit of hate-mongering against all candidates not supported by him). At this point can he really make that pivot?

Nice catch by Antid Oto.

One more thought about when this will be over. The financial angle hasn't had enough time to sink in yet . . . but as I think about the implications of "in the red" a little more . . .

I don't think it's going to be the party elders or the SDs who declare this thing "over." I think it's going to be the donors. I'm not sure when that will happen. But today's news makes me think it might be sooner than I thought.

I've never tried to sugar coat the problems with the January MI vote, which is why I was on the side of the Michigan Democratic Party and the DNC in wanting a legitimate re-vote.
-Petey today


I'm a Democrat. The Democratic National Committee under Howard Dean came up with a primary schedule that allowed only 4 states to have primaries before 2/5.

Michigan was not one of those 4 states.

At the DNC deliberations in 2007, Michigan made their case to be one of the early states, votes were taken in the DNC representing all national Dems, and Michigan lost their case.

For me, it's simple. The DNC made rules using a fair process. IA and NH played by those rules. The Michigan Dems didn't.

- Petey, January 8

More of Petey's greatest hits from Dec. 21:

It must not be easy when basically the only informed Dems standing in your corner are shills.

We'll find out in less than two weeks if helicopters and Mark Penn's slime can pull in enough uninformed Dems to save your cause or not.

This is truly the point in the primary cycle where Petey starts regularly accusing Matt of being on the take. Lord, I've seen this movie before. Peter, how long did you accuse Kos of financial shenanigans before you decamped to Tapped? I respected your JRE advocacy, but these posts the last few months are way too close to the unhinged posting you did in 2004. Do yourself a favor and get help Petey.

he couldn't possibly be wronger, because if what he said were true, than the superdelegates would already have settled the race and they haven't.

As I mentioned above, there is no conceivable reason that an otherwise pro-HRC superdelegate would not have declared for her already. Her early lead in SDs helped push the notion of inevitability. But even if, for some reason, the undeclared pro-HRC SDs *were* holding back for some unknown reason, the dire circumstances of her campaign would have required that they jump on board some time ago - so as to halt the Obama momentum that threatened to wash out HRC some time ago (although if there's one thing this race has determined, it is that "momentum" is entirely inconsequential).

Why haven't the non-pro-HRC superdelegates declared for Obama yet? They may not realize the race is over (which is understandable given the media's poor job of adequately emphasizing how impossible HRC's position is); since the Clintons still hold a lot of power in Democratic circles, nobody wants to needlessly alienate them. As a result, the undeclared either want to reserve the right to jump on board with HRC if circumstances make her inevitable, or they want to wait until Obama is inevitable so that it is safe to do so.

Nice catches, all around. But I think Petey has remembered another appointment.

The more I think about it, the more I think the financial angle is the crucial one right now. I mean, apparently HRC has $11.7 mil cash on hand. But she owes other people $8.7 mil, and owes herself $5 mil.

If you were a donor, would you want to invest in a project with that balance sheet?

More crucially, what would you do if you were HRC, hoping to eventually recoup your own $5M? Might you keep campaigning, and keep accepting donations . . . while going light on actual campaign spending?

I don't know exactly how this plays out, but I do think it may be the $$ that decide when this thing is over.

http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/03/hillary_campaign_in_the_red.php

mckingford, i'm really down to my last comment on this matter(i hope!).

actually, there is a reason for a pro-clinton superdelegate not to have declared by now: they don't want to wind up on the wrong side.

that said, fundamentally, sure, the odds favor the presumption that pro-clinton superdelegates would already have let us know, just as the odds favor the presumption that pro-obama superdelegates would already have let us know (although, as you correctly note, they too don't want to wind up on the wrong side).

but matthew offered up a categorical: "guess what, the people who didn't line up behind Clinton early are people who don't want Clinton to win!"

that's what's ridiculous: if they don't want Clinton to win, it's entirely in their power to keep her from winning today.

but they haven't, and as we all know, it ain't over 'til it's over.

more accurate would be "guess what, the people who didn't line up behind Clinton early are truly undecided and waiting, which doesn't bode well for Clinton's chances."

4. Given points 1, 2, and 3, the challenge faced by party insiders -- including SDs in particular -- is how to manage the process by which Obama actually receives the nomination. The chief obstacle they face is that they cannot afford to alienate HRC supporters who still think she has a chance to win by declaring the process over before everybody has voted.

The big thing here is that any decision made by superdelegates to "end the primary" is going to look like a group of old white guys telling either the woman or the black guy in the election to sit down. By leaving the actual election to the voters, "the man" doesn't have to make a group decision on which person to hold down.

As the election continues to crawl along, more supers will endorse. But any mass endorsement or finisher by the superdelegates (before even the final election is over or someone is completely mathametically eliminated) would be seen as holding a minority group back. So the election is technically over and has arguably been over since Super Tuesday, but the superdelegates/party leadership (as a group) are never going to step into the race until Hillary drops out.

Deborah, if the case that obama has won the nomination is as clearcut as people like matthew contend, then there is no "stealing" if the superdelegates line up for obama and end this thing, which is why i personally don't think that it's simply a matter of superdelegates being afraid of being perceived as a group of crooks, denying the popular will. i would instead suggest that the popular will is quite evenly split, and that's why the undecided superdelegates remain so.
Posted by howard

My argument is that the nomination is clear cut for anyone who really looks at the numbers. Unfortunately, "numbers" and "math" and "statistics" aren't things that make most Americans smile and keep reading. So while it can be spun as "I was robbed! Denied! They aren't willing to wait for the voters, but overrule them!" Same problem with "the popular vote doesn't matter, because different metrics are used and any attempt to statistically correct for the different sampling methods...." Hear that? That was a reader out there, falling asleep on their keyboard. So the supers are reasonably concerned about not being seen to steal the nomination--not in July from Obama, but not this month from Clinton. Note I don't say "they wouldn't steal" but "they wouldn't want to be seen to steal"--it's the perception that's at issue.

And, as someone argued above, the supers don't actually don nifty disguises and hold secret meetings. Some have joined Rahm Emanuel under his desk, wacky OH supers are holding out for concessions after the state voted, some earnestly hope not to offend anyone--it's not monolithic. But for those willing to send messages about the supers as a body, such as Pelosi now and Richardson at the beginning of the month and a host doing interviews off the record, all say throwing the nomination is not in the works.

But for those willing to send messages about the supers as a body, such as Pelosi now and Richardson at the beginning of the month and a host doing interviews off the record, all say throwing the nomination is not in the works.

Persuasive. Which is why the real pressure-points may have to be

a) the media,
and, via the media,

b) Clinton donors.

If the message gets out that HRC does not really have a plausible end-game, perhaps donations will dry up. In fact they already appear to be drying up.

Aren't a lot of them waiting to see what happens? Many are hesitant or they would have endorsed already.

And doesn't winning all the big states count for anything (or conversely, not winning them)? Aren't they absolutely mandatory for November?

Also, aren't there other real reasons like which groups have been voting for which candidate, and the future of the party's growth--Hispanics, old people--esp boomers retiring, single women, and millenials are all giant and growing groups--while white men and union members are shrinking groups.

I really wish we could see polling on whether previous primary voters have been affected by subsequent events--i think we would see it, affecting both of them.

If I was a superdelegate, I'd still be undecided at this point. I wouldn't feel obligated to vote for whoever won either the popular vote or the pledged delegates; that simply isn't a superdelegate's job. The job is to vote for whoever is the better choice for the party.

Obama's showed some serious weaknesses in the last few weeks. And yes, this has a lot to do with Hillary trying to make him unelectable. That's her job. If she can make him unelectable, he was never electable in the first place.

So let it play out.

Deborah and JJ. I don't disagree with your responses to me precisely but I feel you are both missing the point entirely. Matts original post and my responses were not about the politics of turning over the delegate count. He asserted that the clintons team is being delusional. I simply asserted that what he calls delusion seems pretty strategic and sensible to me.
If Hillary were able to seize the majority by popular vote and Obama either is plagued by more gaffes or the current gaffes noticably hobble him then there does exist a realistic path to the NOMINATION for her. That is what I am saying, and what Matt asserted is delusional or crazy. Whether this path is advisable or likely is not in question. What is in question is if they're being crazy. I assert they are not. If Hillary had no possible path to the nomination then she would likely drop out. The path remains, she remains theoretically viable and is sustained both by votes and by contributions. Obama had the chance to end it before, he failed to close the deal. Now he's going to have to play the game. Full disclosure: I'm a Clinton supporter but I would prefer that Obama had won to the current muddle. That said I am not impressed by the man. I do not support giving him the nomination just because it makes us feel all tingly-nice. If he wants it he's going to have to earn it (and his frothing supporters as well). When (as it seems likely) he cinches the nomination he shall have my complete support. Until then I shall pass on the koo-aide, thanks much.

Anyone else think that Hillary is still in this so that Obama loses in the general and she runs again in 2012?

She can't run in 2016, she'll be too old. What does she have to lose if it hurts Obama?

So let it play out.

I believe the entire point of the article is that it has already played out. The Clinton campaign alleges Obama is unelectable. Well, if she can't beat him how does that make her electable?

"I didn't know that, thanks. But I don't understand it. Why would the DNC not want Democrats who voted in the January primary to be able to vote in the revote? That doesn't make sense to me."

Because the DNC rules are that you can't vote in both primaries.

One can quibble with the rationale to that rule, just as one can quibble with the rule that says that MI wasn't allowed to hold a vote before 2/5. But both campaigns were fine with the rules before the voting started.

I'm sure the Clinton campaign would be willing to hold a re-vote under Obama's "conditions", but if they did, the DNC wouldn't sanction the vote, which is precisely why Obama laid down those exact cowardly "conditions". They said they'd be fine with re-votes only if the re-votes were held under conditions that would make them not count. More than slightly sleazy.

And FWIW, Obama's attempt to stop the MI and FL re-votes is not technically against the rules. It's just staggeringly dirty politics attempting to disenfranchise Democratic voters because they think they're going to lose the two contests.

"Here's something else I don't understand (I know, I'm dense). How does it matter? Can Clinton take the lead in pledged delegates in the remaining primaries? None of the analysis I've seen shows that she can. Re-votes in Florida and Michigan would have netted Obama more, not less, delegates, right?"

Again, refer to the DNC rules. If a lead in "pledged delegates" was all that was required to win the nomination, that's how the rules would be drawn up.

Obama's support among upscale caucus-goers has close to ensured he's going to have a lead in "pledged delegates" in June. But the superdelegates were put in place in the early 80's specifically to protect the Democratic electorate from a candidate trying to game the system the way Jimmy Carter did in 1976 and Obama is trying to do this year.

If Clinton ends up winning the final three months of the race, as well as winning the overwhelming majority of popular votes among Democrats, she's going to be the nominee.

Obama recognizes this, which is why he's cynically trying to reduce the number of contests between now and the end of June, even at the cost of telling the Democrats of MI and FL to go fuck themselves and likely pissing away the general election in the process.

Obama's support among upscale caucus-goers has close to ensured he's going to have a lead in "pledged delegates" in June. But the superdelegates were put in place in the early 80's specifically to protect the Democratic electorate from a candidate trying to game the system the way Jimmy Carter did in 1976 and Obama is trying to do this year.
- Petey today

The caucus rules serve my interests in manifold ways.

- They advantage activist Dems over non-activist Dems.
- They advantage high-information Dems over low-information Dems.
- They advantage progressive Dems over conservative Dems.
- They eliminate the ability of a niche candidate to win with a low percentage in a crowded field.
- They produce a winner who has some rural strength, which is incredibly important for the Dem nominee and the Party as a whole.
- They advantage consensus candidates over niche candidates due to the second choice factor.
- They disadvantage negative ad campaigns over governing messages.

I could go on. The caucus rules are really a fucking brilliant piece of engineering.

I want a strong Democratic Party and a progressive Democratic Party, and so I see the caucus rules as my best friend.

I wouldn't want to see the whole nomination race run like Iowa, but for the first contest, it's pretty close to optimal.

Petey, January 2


Antid Oto,

I really don't see anything inconsistent between what I was saying then and what I'm saying now.

I was on the side of playing by the DNC rules then, and I'm on the side of playing by the DNC rules now.

I think everyone back then was fully assuming that MI would have a re-vote if the race was close enough to require one. That was certainly the DNC position back then. I don't think anyone was anticipating that one campaign would try to prevent a re-vote and intentionally disenfranchise Democratic voters.

Seriously, could you have guessed that Barack Obama was going to turn into Katherine Harris? If so, you've got a better crystal ball than me.

But, of course, given Obama's difficulty in winning Democratic voters so far, I guess it makes sense why he'd be willing to screw them over. Obama has already made clear with his stands on policy that his allegiance is to Obama, not Democratic voters. So why not take it to the next level and just tell Democratic voters to shut up?

Antid:

So, in other words, the caucus process distorts the Democratic electorate in a number of ways. Most of the country (or party) isn't made up of activists, liberals, or high-information voters. You forgot to mention more affluent, but that's a distortion too.

A left-wing Democratic party isn't going to be the majority party.


The Obama campaign knows they're going to lose pretty much every contest between now and June,

Well, there's a verifiable prediction if I ever saw one. If this were to actually happen, I might actually have some sympathy for Clinton supporters. But let me go out on a limb to say I doubt it will.

I think that with Obama's great response to the Reverend Wright potential bomb, people are going to start coming around to him. Sure, the usual racist and hardcore Republican partisans will spin it negatively, as well as Hillary supporters, but I think the general sense of people has been to be overwhelmingly impressed with his delicate and inspiring handling of such a tough issue. There are definitely people out there who were neutral or only moderately pro-Obama who have become substantial fans due to his speech.

There's something odd about the fact that Petey starts showing up again right about when the HRC "bloggers" went on "strike". Of course, Petey was kicked of dkos years and years ago. I remember tangling with him back then. So it's not even like he's allowed to "strike" there. I'm just wishing he'd "strike" everywhere else, I'm saying.

My opinion is that it's not the end of the world if the supers don't have their "caucus" until June when all the voting's done. It will still go for Obama, and HRC supporters will just have less to complain about in terms of "unfairness"--everyone will feel like they had their say (except MI and FL, but that was what happened), and then Obama has 2 months to get things back together before the convention. Considering everyone's short attention span, March or June's not going to make that much of a difference and may even help reconcile some Hillary supporters to the outcome.

Beyond June is just plain perverse, and any hesitating superdelegates should be whipped mercilessly until they declare themselves at that point. Howard Dean can start the whipping personally.

As for Petey, I wonder how long it will be from when Obama is the nominee to when we see him talking up John McCain?

Tim K -- Antid Oto is quoting Petey.

haha really? Well then I'll direct it at him, and Obama supporters.

"I wouldn't want to see the whole nomination race run like Iowa, but for the first contest, it's pretty close to optimal."

If you're going to take me out of context, you really should have excised that bit.

I was pretty consistent throughout 2007 in supporting a caucus/primary mix in the early states only for the precise reasons you've clipped.

I think Obama's caucus win in Iowa and Clinton's caucus win in Nevada were perfectly legitimate, and in many senses, good process.

But as I repeatedly noted pre-Iowa, it's not how later contests should be run. Obama's advantage in pledged delegates comes exclusively from the fact that his upscale demographics are easier to turn out in caucuses.

Early state caucuses serve a purpose in letting activists take a central role in the winnowing the field before the whole country is fully introduced to the candidates. Multiple later state caucuses, once the electorate has gotten to know the viable two or three remaining candidates, serves only to advantage upscale Dems over downscale Dems.

Daily Kos is the most annoying internet "community." Judging by their senses of humor and obsession with "We're a great big family," I have to assume that they're all either very old or very lame.

I'm a lefty, Tim K. I have a feeling we're supporting Clinton for deeply different reasons. But so goes Presidential politics.

Anyone else think that Hillary is still in this so that Obama loses in the general and she runs again in 2012?
She can't run in 2016, she'll be too old. What does she have to lose if it hurts Obama?

This would have been possible before Virginia. Potomac Tuesday is where the math turned against her. Wisconsin ended any chance.

This is not an election, it is a party primary. Losing well can help your career. Losing like Clinton is doing it can sink your career.

If the NY Repubs put up a half decent opponent, does NYC come out big for Clinton? Does the DCCC funnel money to her over more loyal Dems?

I think her national political career ended this week. Obama has the high info Dems and activists and they are really starting to despise her and will blame any loss by Obama on her.

Jesse Jackson took it to the convention and any candidate can. But you have to do it in a party building way. Jackson didn't release the Willie Horton commercial. He didn't throw the "kitchen sink" at Dukakis. It also hurt Dukakis that Jackson did pursue him beyond hope.

"Of course, Petey was kicked of dkos years and years ago. I remember tangling with him back then. So it's not even like he's allowed to "strike" there."

I was around there frequently in 2007. It was fun to be in the dKos majority for a change. DHinMI figured out it was me pretty quickly. I was actually surprised you never figured it out, JMS. It's the only place I'll ever post at under a non-Petey screenname.

"As for Petey, I wonder how long it will be from when Obama is the nominee to when we see him talking up John McCain?"

If Obama becomes the nominee against the will of the Democratic electorate, as is currently Team Obama's actual fucking strategy, I'm planning to vote Nader. I'd never vote Republican. You ought to at least remember that much about me.

James,

Do you really believe that principle trumps practical politics? If you do, you would remind of the progressives who voted for Nader in 2000, thereby partially costing Al Gore the election (with a huge assist from the USSC, but they wouldn't have been required to rule if Nader hadn't made the election closer than it otherwise would have been).

Let's examine the cost of those who stood on principle to vote for Nader: 1) an invasion of Iraq without even waiting for the UN inspectors to finish their work; 2) a near doubling of the national debt thereby hamstringing our ability to spend our way out of this recession (or worse); 3) a weakening of environmental laws; 4) repeated unlawful invasions of privacy of the US citizens with a concomitant erosion of the Bill of Rights... Need on go on?

So you stand on your lofty principles when McCain remains in Iraq for 100 years, invades Iran, and appoints Roberts/Alito type of USSC judges. Then when the Dem, who meets your ideological purity test, finally re-takes WH, wait and see how hard (make that impossible) it is for him to undo the damage.

As for being weak-kneed, I think that description can be more aptly applied to those who refuse to face political reality, like um, you.

As I said, I voted for Obama in the NJ primary. If he gets the nomination, I will vote for him again in the general, but if it becomes obvious before the DNC convention that Hillary would be a better choice to beat McCain, then the Dems would be fools not to nominate her, specious comparison to Bush/Cheney notwithstanding.

Three points:

1. Re: Matt - Hillary needs to appear like she's competitive. If the media/superdelegates/donors sense that she's done, she's done. This is weird problem of having the election hinge on superdelegates - it becomes all about perceptions of viability, with elections becoming a second order point of concern. It's probably time to retire the "shocked by Clinton's election illogic" angle.

2. Re: superdelegate silence and game theory. Someone on Daily Kos posted an interesting game theory analysis of superdelegate silence. My slant on that idea: a superdelegate's vote increases in value the closer one candidate (read: Obama) gets to clinching, gaining leverage Obama gains more and more delegates. So it's in each superdelegate's self-interest to hold out as long as possible to maximize their leverage. That may explain why there's so little superdelegate movement right now.

I think it's a decent way to explain how superdelegates might perceive their own self-interest, but there's a point of diminishing returns. If Obama gets a flood of 50 superdelegate votes next week, for example, then Clinton's obit will be written by even CNN. Her fundraising will dry up and she'll probably be forced to hang it up within a week or so. At that point, it becomes a different type of game: how fast can you endorse Obama so that your vote doesn't get rendered utterly irrelevant.

3. Re: Petey/Clinton spin.

"Hey guys, I know we're trailing 41-20 with two minutes left in the game. But let me say it again: The. Score. Does Not. Matter. Everyone knows that total yards gained is a better metric of a team's strength, and by that count, I'm only 128 yards behind. Perfectly doable with a long drive, onside kick, and completed Hail Mary. So let's now say that the winner will be determined which team gains the most total yards at the end. Okay? Okay."

"By the way, you know why the score shouldn't matter? They ran it up by kicking six field goals! Imagine that! Why not go for the touchdown? The field goal is weak sauce, man! Also, they're not honorable because they know my field goal kicker is struggling and can't nail 30 yarder with any consistency. So the score is illegitimate. Or at least doesn't mean anything. Or it doesn't reflect the fact that we have a better team. Or something."

"Oh, did I mention that the margin can be entirely attributed to points-off-turnovers? Including a bad call on a fumble that went against us? If we use a better metric, say, 'points scored legitimately (i.e., points scored when the change of possession was not the result of a turnover), we're only 1 point down. We can still kick a field goal and win!!!!"

"Did I mention first downs? We're only trailing by only two in that stat. I think the refs ought to be able to forfeit the game in our favor if we take the lead on total first downs. Just throwing the idea out there."

Re Petey's comment "And FWIW, Obama's attempt to stop the MI and FL re-votes is not technically against the rules. It's just staggeringly dirty politics attempting to disenfranchise Democratic voters because they think they're going to lose the two contests."
------------
In my opinion, this is two-faced bullshit.

No one's said it yet, so I will.

Fuck Michigan. Fuck Florida.

This country has suffered for 8 years under Republican control of the three branchs of government, the Democratic Party finally has a chance to get back control of the government for the good of the people and the FUCKING MORONS IN FLORIDA AND MICHIGAN can even run a LEGAL PRIMARY.

FUCK THESE CLOWNS? Let them vote Republican. Then the Democratic Party can drive Florida and MIchigan's economies into the shithole in retaliation when we win.

The DNC rules were clear -- and Florida and Michigan were too damm immature to follow them.
There are 50 states -- and they thought they were above the other 48.

Obama didn't disenfranchise them -- their own stupidity and immaturity did.

Can everyone ignore Petey?

He's bitter that Edwards lost and is having an emotional breakdown.

See the following:

Commenter:
Today, the (DLC) has almost no constituency within the Democratic Party.

Petey responding:
...won't be correct if Hillary Clinton and Mark Penn succeed in becoming the standard-bearer of the Party.

Petey's obsession with GE is chillingly reminiscent of another guy's grudge. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Metesky] Hope it doesn't end the same way.

"everyone will feel like they had their say (except MI and FL, but that was what happened)"

No. That is what Obama has been trying to make happen. Don't pretend it was some accident.

Obama has been moving every lever at his disposal to prevent legitimate re-votes in MI and FL and intentionally disenfranchise Democratic voters.

I never realized you were a Katherine Harris fan, JMS.

Correction: Above post should have said: "FUCKING MORONS IN FLORIDA AND MICHIGAN can NOT even run a LEGAL PRIMARY."

I highly doubt the common, grassroots Democratic voter in Michigan and Florida is going to vote against Obama just because their STATE party leaders fucked up their primary. If heads roll, its going to be in the state leaderships.

"Petey's obsession with GE is chillingly reminiscent of another guy's grudge. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Metesky] Hope it doesn't end the same way."

Pretty much every lefty who's familiar with post-WWII American politics has a "grudge" against GE.

Do some research on Lemuel Boulware sometime. Do some research on Ronald Reagan sometime. Do some research on Jack Welch sometime.

Petey:

Clinton isn't left-wing so you can't be for her because of ideology.

I'm for her because I think she can win and because I think she has the qualifications, experience and resilience to do the job and bring change.

The football analogies are getting annoying.

The reality is that Obama has a narrow but insurmountable lead in pledged delegates, but that in order to win, he needs a nontrivial number of superdelegates.

How those superdelegates choose to act is an open question. It's not obvious to me what exactly they will base their decision on.

Still, if Clinton is convincing in her argument that Obama will be unable to turn out major groups of traditionally Democratic voters in key states, and that she can, then it doesn't take a leap of faith to conclude that she can win.

Indeed, I think that while Texas and Ohio may have been tactical Clinton defeats (she didn't net many delegates or meet expectations), they may have been strategic victories - sowing the seeds of doubts as to Obama's strength among certain types of white voters. Mississippi only further racialized the narrative, and Rev. Wright's comments have kept this item front and center.

But Tim, Clinton has the most progressive position on healthcare! I'm not certain that Clinton is electable -- the Politico article suggests that she may not even be able to win the nomiantion. But I continue to support her, unswervingly, because she's the only real populist left in the race.

Also, she wants to stop GE's monopoly on tinfoil, which could pose a real problem for me.

"Clinton isn't left-wing so you can't be for her because of ideology."

I'm for her because of policy. Universal healthcare would be the great game changer in shifting the American social contract and in enabling future progressive legislation.

Obama is great on symbolism, but he's utterly sold out the left on policy, and I value getting policy signed into law over symbolism.

faux facsimile -- you make way too much sense. In fact, you should be writing for The Atlantic.

Pennsylvania has 12.4 million people. Florida has 18.4 million and Michigan only has 10 million people.

Pennsylvania was willing to hold its primary on APRIL 22 -- yet spoiled brats Florida and Michigan caused a massive car wreck simply because they would not move their primary 1 to 2 weeks later to February 5.

Fuck them. I am sick and fed up with "Joe Liebermans" in the Democratic Party constantly promoting their self interest at the expense of the party by exploiting their ability to sabotage -- versus help -- the party.

I would also suggest the the Clintons' perchant for two-faced deceit -- agreeing with the DNC
to leave Hillary's name off of Michigan's slate and then leaving it on --disqualifies her as
a candidate. There should be some MINIMUM standard for integrity in our standardbearer -- and Hillary has shown on many occasions that she does not have it.

I fail to see why the Democratic Party should shit on the other 48 states just to pander to the temper tantrums of Florida and Michigan.

Fuck them.

"Also, she wants to stop GE's monopoly on tinfoil"

Like I said, read up on Lemuel Boulware, Ronald Reagan, and Jack Welch sometime and tell me if you still think I'm wearing tinfoil. Read the Pew study on media coverage of the current campaign too, while you're at it.

But then again, you're opposed to universal healthcare, so you probably have a radically different agenda than me. The Andrew Sullivan type Obama supporters obviously aren't going to be very interested in lefty politics.

A mulligan in an election would be a terrible precedent. Simple as that. Florida and Michigan both knew the rules but gambled to try to gain a little significance. A bad gamble.

"faux facsimile -- you make way too much sense. In fact, you should be writing for The Atlantic."

I'd argue that he's making too much sense to be writing for The Atlantic. The house style demands a bit less sense.

Petey,

What do you know about making sense?

"A mulligan in an election would be a terrible precedent. Simple as that. Florida and Michigan both knew the rule"

The official DNC position has always been that FL and MI should re-vote.

If you want to defend the DNC rules, you ought to be defending the re-vote. And that's why pretty much everyone outside of the Obama camp is in favor of a re-vote.

Obama has cynically sought to stop the re-votes because he understand that the voters are not his campaign's friend. It's cowardly and sleazy behavior on Obama's part that is no different from what Jeb Bush and Katherine Harris were up to in 2000. It's wrong, it's undemocratic, and it's going to render the nomination worthless for Obama if he steals it that way.

Re faux facsimile's comment "Still, if Clinton is convincing in her argument that Obama will be unable to turn out major groups of traditionally Democratic voters in key states, and that she can, then it doesn't take a leap of faith to conclude that she can win."
--------------
Again, bullshit. In doing so, The superdelegates would not just LOSE this election -- they would destroy the Democratic Party.

The African-American community has voted roughly 90% for Democrats for years -- and has had their loyalty repaid by being largely fucked by the Party in the Party's pandering to the Israel Lobby, the Hispanic Lobby and the Fortune 500.

Obama has won under DNC rules -- if the superdelegates steal that victory away from him, then they will drive every African-American into the Republican Party or into a forming a third party.

They will also drive away every leftist in the party who knows Hillary is a whore not greatly different from George Bush. By the DNC's own tally, they will make implacable enemies out of the majority of the Party's activist , grassroots supporters.

The argument that Hillary is a viable candidate is bullshit.

The very reasons why the Democratic Party will win in November are the reasons why Hillary is a fatally flawed candidate -- her Clintonian triangulation gave her a voting record that is more REPUBLICAN than John McCain.

And the MAJOR PATTERN in this election is that the voters are going to throw out the Republicans -and crypto-Republicans.

When Lincoln Chaffee says Hillary is one of George W Bush's greatest enablers , you should know she's fucked.

Petey,

You're right. FL and MI should revote, but the can't and they won't.

FL Dems (and state election laws and the complicated infrastructure) ruled it out.

And there is no way that a MI revote would be fair for Obama. Any person that didn't support Clinton wouldn't be able to vote for their candidate in the re-do (under DNC rules). This would disenfranchise many pro-Obama Democrats and Independents. If the primary were open to all comers, there would undoubtedly be massive spoiling of the results by Republicans. It's a lose-lose situation. Also, if it were held in June, college students would probably have gone home and may be disenfranchised.

Faux, Petey, Howard, et al. The problem with the wacky and wonderful fantasy in which Hillary secures the nomination by overturning the choice of grassroots voters is not that it's absolutely impossible. Though far fetched, it is not impossible.

The problem is that the prospect of Hillary winning on the strength of superdelegates alone is actually a terrifying nightmare for anyone who cares about the Democratic party. She can't do it without alienating huge blocs of voters, she can't do it before August (which means she won't have much time to run against McCain, much less piece the Party back together), she can't do it without crippling lots of down-ticket Democrats, and she can't do it and also win the presidency. That's why a lot of us are getting a little impatient with the whole idea.

Re Petey's comment "The official DNC position has always been that FL and MI should re-vote."
-------------
Again, utter bullshit that is, in my opinion, intentionally deceitful.

The DNC would have liked for FL and MI to have set up a reasonable revote sometime in early February.

BUT It is NOW MARCH 21st -- and the Michigan legislation has just gone on vacation.

If the Michigan and Florida state parties had wanted to make a SINCERE effort to fix their fuckups, they've had plenty of time. I myself would have agreed with a revote in late February or early March.

But now, Train's left the station. Adult people meet reasonable deadlines and act in a responsible manner. Those who don't deserve to be ignored.

The Party needs to shut this circus down and prepare for war with the Republicans. Deserters and saboteurs should be shot.

But maybe Petey thinks we should move Election day up into spring 2009 so that Florida and Michigan can pull their heads out of their butts.
I suggest he go off and see what the Republicans think of that idea.

Why don't you clowns just shut up about this until June and see what actually happens?

It's a good thing Petey, Florida and Michigan weren't involved in the Normany invasion in World War II.

On the appointed day, they would have parked their ass on the curb and demanded that the whole operation be canceled because (a) they needed more time to find their boots and (b) they were developing a possible blister on one of their feet or (c) they might have a touch of diarrhea

From the NY TImes report on the Michigan legislation going into recess:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/21/us/politics/21delegates.html?_r=1&adxnnl=1&oref=slogin&adxnnlx=1206151988-6sNx/R1xq0lasMTtR1jfeQ
----------
"WASHINGTON — There will be no new primary in Michigan.

Ignoring entreaties from state party leaders and an in-person plea from Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton on Wednesday, state lawmakers adjourned Thursday without acting on a bill to authorize a do-over of the disqualified Democratic presidential primary held in January, effectively killing any new vote."
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If Michigan's legislation refuses to authorize a re-vote then why is Petey accusing OBAMA of "disenfranchising" Michigan voters?

Isn't Petey's accusation ..er.."misleading"? In the Rush Limbaugh style?

Why do you guys do this every time? Petey spews his usual bullshit that very clearly contradicts what he was saying three months ago without a source (still waiting on proof that Obama can't win Democrats), and everyone here gets up in arms.

"The problem is that the prospect of Hillary winning on the strength of superdelegates alone is actually a terrifying nightmare for anyone who cares about the Democratic party."

Yeah, I don't see a way for Hillary to trump Obama by relying on superdelegates in a way that isn't so divisive that it destroys her chance of winning the general election. Absent a scandal of the dead girl or live boy variety, a victory by superdelegates will be seen as illegitimate by a healthy chunk of Obama supporters, who make up the majority of the democratic electorate. Thus, she'd be in a position where she would have to work on two fronts - undoing the damage of her getting the nomination and fighting McCain. I can't see her pulling that off in the three months between the convention and the election.

The Politico article has Clinton officials conceding that a superdelegate override of the state contests is the only way they can win. They have to know how divisive that would be - the fact that they would put their personal ambitions above the good of the party is pretty damning.

I was never solidly pro-Obama until Clinton started praising McCain's leadership in order to bash him. The idea that a Democratic contender would be supporting the Republican nominee's key campaign argument struck me as insane.

"Obama has won under DNC rules -- if the superdelegates steal that victory away from him, then they will drive every African-American into the Republican Party or into a forming a third party."

Yeah, the idea of alienating one of the key constituencies of the Democratic Party on that level makes you wonder about the Clintons' much touted political brilliance. That sounds like something that would be tactically great but strategically suicidal.

My understanding is that the FLORIDA STATE DEMOCRATIC PARTY decided a few days ago to not have a re-vote.

So why is Petey claiming that it is OBAMA who is disenfranchising the Florida voters?

Isn't that claim ..er.. "disingenous"?? In the Glenn Beck manner?
--------
From March 18 at http://www.bnd.com/news/politics/story/283831.html

"TALLAHASSEE, Fla. --Florida's Democratic Party scuttled plans for a presidential re-vote Monday, saying a party-run primary or caucus had been ruled out, and the mail-in idea never gained enough support from party leaders or rank-and-file Democrats.

Last week, the state party had proposed scrapping the results of the Jan. 29 presidential vote and instead staging a privately financed, party-run June 3 election conducted largely with mail-in ballots.

"The consensus is clear: Florida doesn't want to vote again," state Democratic Party Chairwoman Karen Thurman said in a letter distributed to Democratic activists late Monday. "So we won't."
------

Hillary is the candidate of the true proletarian revolution and her socialist realist followers will drink the correct working class beverages while Barack Obama is the tool of the bourgeoisie and the rentier class who specialize in foamy or tea-based beverages which reveal their anti-socialist disdain.

(How'd I do?)

Minnesota, faux facsimile,

Sorry to nitpick, but Obama won Texas. So yes, he can win big states. Clinton did not win Texas, even narrowly. Obama won Texas.

The general...who knows? But Hillary has no more of a chance in Texas than Obama does.

Carry on.

An interesting follow up post to the TPM on Acceptance, linked above. A Clinton supporter insists they are NOT going down easily:

"Let me be clear, we will never back down until the fat lady sings. And that performance, which will be for the better, will be on the convention room floor. It will be an all out brawl!
We're not backing down! The fight has just begun!!!!"

Let's just think about the fight just beginning now. The e-mail goes on to explain how the superdelegates overthrowing the voters (should those lowly people make an "uneducated decision") would be uncontroversial, for thus were they created! And so on...

I won't rest until the last drop of Clintonism is bled from the Democratic party.

Exactly, Deborah. I think Josh chose that letter carefully. It's a wonderfully self-deconstructing argument.

"I won't rest until the last drop of Clintonism is bled from the Democratic party."

Fiscal responsibility and mature economic stewardship are a Democratic legacy because of Bill Clinton's administration and his administration alone.

Kuros: I really valued that in Bill's presidency.
However, looking at the latest on Clinton's finances, I'm not sure she can make the same argument for fiscal responsibility.

Fiscal responsibility and mature economic stewardship are a Democratic legacy because of Bill Clinton's administration and his administration alone.

I have no problem with Rubinism - it's Clintonism that I loathe.

"The problem is that the prospect of Hillary winning on the strength of superdelegates alone is actually a terrifying nightmare for anyone who cares about the Democratic party."

Maybe, maybe not. Whoever wins does so against the wishes of 40%+ of the primary voters. Given the bad blood that's developed, I don't see partisans on other side being happy. If Clinton wins due to the superdelegates, then yes, African Americans among many others, will be upset. If Obama wins narrowly without an arrangement on FL and MI, then plenty of Clinton's supporters will be likewise unhappy.

In the end, the biggest nightmare for any Democrat should be President McCain. The fact that it isn't (for some) is a bad sign. Lacking a crystal ball, I can't say who makes that nightmare more likely - but I haven't seen a lot of persuasive evidence that it is necessarily Clinton.

The best solution would be for the candidate with the poorer November prospects to drop out (gracefully) now. However, for the time being, they, like us, disagree on who that is.

A Democrat will win. Why? Because in the face of a major recession, this shit just won't fly: http://blog.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2008/03/21/the_new_hyde_park_project.html

HRC's in the hole for two reasons, both having to do with supreme arrogance. First, the Clintons' in being so sure that she was going to be the nominee that reportedly $20 million is set aside. That must hurt. Secondly, the likes arrogant a-holes like Penn and Wolfson are costing the campaign a small fortune. Just recently, I saw a comparison between the two campaigns. Wolfson is making over a $100K more a month than Robert Gibbs is making in a YEAR. (http://us.ft.com/ftgateway/superpage.ft?news_id=fto022220081815489686&page=2) That's pretty obscene.

As to the superdelegates, I think those keeping quiet are not unlike the press. Though some I believe are truly undecided, I believe others are leery of coming out against Clinton until she seems to have zero chance. Just as the media are afraif of losing access to Bill, supers don't want to end up on the Clinton s*** list.

Sadly, I think we're past the point where HRC will bow out gracefully. Lord, I hope I'm wrong, but I think she's in this until she's forced out. It will NOT be pretty.

Faux: Sure, some supporters are always unhappy when their candidate loses. That's a constant.

The question is, how could these two candidates, respectively, win?

Barack can win in April, or more likely early May, as a growing perception of his inevitability causes Hillary's money to run out, and her lead among superdelegates to disappear. Sure, Hillary supporters will be unhappy when that happens. They'll complain at length about FL and MI. But FL and MI will be seated (in some form) at the convention, and we'll have six or seven months to pull the party together.

By contrast, the only way Hillary can win now is through a floor fight in Denver, while large crowds of demonstrators fill the streets. In August. Leaving us about two months to pull the party together.

I don't expect Hillary to drop out for the good of the party. But as the contrast I've just outlined becomes clear -- to the media, to superdelegates, and to donors -- I do expect her support to dwindle.

It's pretty much gotten to the point that I don't want to read Matt's blog anymore because Petey hijacks every thread with his inane bullshit.

I call for Petey to be ostracized. I ask someone to second the motion, and others to make further motions so this can be put to a vote.

/kickban

If you're going to take me out of context,

Weak. Very weak.

If Obama becomes the nominee against the will of the Democratic electorate, as is currently Team Obama's actual fucking strategy

Having parsed 'Democratic electorate' tighter than Mark Penn, your credibility is lower than the Clinton campaign's bank balance.

Stop lying, Petey. Right now, you're a fucking liar, and I'd suggest that you might be taken more seriously if you stopped fucking lying. Especially if those lies are just a way to trim pennies off dumbasses at InTrade.

"Weak. Very weak."

Bad phrasing. Not quite what I meant. I'll rephrase:

If you want to take me out of context, you really should have excised that last line. As the quote stands, I think you've actually helped me make the point that there is no inconsistency whatsoever between what I was advocating for pre-Iowa in terms of the caucus process and what I'm advocating for now.

The best solution would be for the candidate with the poorer November prospects to drop out (gracefully) now. However, for the time being, they, like us, disagree on who that is.
Posted by faux facsimile

By that logic we could skip the primaries: look over the candidates, decide which one would appeal to the country next November, anoint them. As you note, people disagree. (I thought Biden and Richarson were great choices.) The way to settle that disagreement on whom is most electable is called the primary, and one candidate is winning that. Biden could make exactly the same argument as Hillary on these grounds--he's not breaking any barriers AND he's clearly best to go up againgst McCain on foreign policy.

By polls, about 40-50% of either side's supporters will be unhappy if they don't get it. As Ted points out, the timing and method of making supporters unhappy is very different.

First, the Clintons' in being so sure that she was going to be the nominee that reportedly $20 million is set aside. --Not Petey

Over at Ben's this oddity from last month's fundraising was explained as $21.5 million of last month's $35 million coming from those already maxed out--it couldn't go in the primary account, just bumped up the numbers. That left about $11.7 million for their $8 odd million in debt (e.g. those poor delis in Iowa) and the campaign going forward. Makes that record-setting month look quite different.

One thing that maybe ought be borne in mind is that whatever the declarations of Hillary's or Obama's supporters (directly or via polls) are about what they will do or how they would feel when their chosen candidate does not get the nomination, it's entirely possible, in fact to me it seems more likely that those feelings or declarations won't last very long after the actual convention, of course, depending on how that final decision is made.

I do think that Hillary has the right to continue with the primary fight, if she wishes. Who knows, she might win 100 percent of the Democratic voters here in Pennsylvania and North Carolina. Ain't likely, but its a non-zero probability.

A prolonged primary may ultimately hurt the Democratic fight against the Republicans later in the summer, but if Obama supporters want the support of Hillary supporters, then that's the price they have to pay -- they need to show a decent respect for peoples' right to have a say in the primaries.

Using strongarm methods to close off the process a month early is not worth the number of Hillary supporters it would alienate.

We also should not confuse the emotional rants of a few Hillary activists on the blogs with the millions of Democrats who voted for her in the primaries but who will also happily vote for Obama in the general election if he wins the primary in a legitimate way.

Let Petey,etc go off and chew their livers -- they are too small a group of malcontents to worry about.

Using strongarm methods to close off the process a month early is not worth the number of Hillary supporters it would alienate.

I think you're exactly right: that's the calculation that is currently keeping this thing going.

But it's a calculation that depends on several variables: the cost of saying "it's over" is too high right now mainly because the media has managed to convince HRC voters that there is still a horserace going on. That perception is mutable: it could change.

What's likely to change even faster is the money equation. Technically, Team Clinton is already in the red. Hillary's schedule has been very quiet, relative to Barack's, the last few days, so there may be some stock-taking going on.

I'm not making any predictions. But I don't think it's a foregone conclusion that this thing has to last through early May.

i don't know if anyone already mentioned this (i'm not up to slogging through every one of these comments), but:

imagine you're a superdelegate. why on earth would you endorse the candidate who doesn't actually have a chance of winning? it's not "an aura of inevitablity" is just math. this, it seems to me, is why obama keeps adding superdelegate endorsements and hillary doesn't.

just seems like the most obvious explanation. am i wrong?


Comments closed April 04, 2008.

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