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In The General

13 Mar 2008 04:24 pm

At this point, I think we've all stopped hearing arguments of the form "Obama lost Massachusetts in the primary so he'll lose it in a general election" or "Obama won South Carolina in the primary so he'll win it in a general election" but there's a frustrating persistence of the idea that performance in a primary campaign in a swing state might be a good indication of general election strength there. In reality, there's just very little reason to believe that. I would very strongly prefer Obama over Clinton, but that doesn't stop me from very strongly preferring Clinton over McCain. All this throat-clearing by way of introducing a quote from this post from Noam Scheiber, commenting on some new Pennsylvania polling data:

A poll showing that Obama can get blown out in the Pennsylvania primary and still hold his own there against McCain suggests working-class white Democrats simply prefer Hillary, not that they find something inherently objectionable about Obama, whom they're apparently happy to support in the general.

Right. The poll indicates that Clinton will do much better than Obama
in the Democratic primary but Obama will do slightly better than Clinton in a general election. There's nothing paradoxical or even counterintuitive about that, but somehow we've gotten twisted around in knots over this sort of thing.

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Here's the latest crazy Eliot Spitzer rumor we've heard. In the past few days, there has been a torrent of Spitzer coverage, so we apologize if it has surfaced elsewhere. But we don't recall coming across this tidbit already, and our Google News and Technorati searches for "spitzer lick" came up... clean.

This comes from a reliable ATL tipster, whose true identity is known to us, and who has given us good info in the past. But the tipster is two degrees removed from the young woman who allegedly interacted with Governor Spitzer, so apply whatever gossip discount factor you deem appropriate. Here it is:

[A friend of a friend is] a Swiss-Brazilian girl who went to D.C. to f**k Spitzer over the summer. Apparently he's been up to this for awhile.

Apparently, his dirty request is for girls to lick his ass. Which seems peculiarly apropos. And he wanted to get his wife in on the action. My friend thought his wife might have known, but wasn't sure.

Sounds pretty incredible, right? But the notion of New York's governor patronizing prostitutes would have sounded pretty incredible too, prior to Monday. If you can buy the notion of a sitting governor hiring hookers, why can't you imagine him sitting on their faces?

Also, our source claims to have heard about it three weeks ago, well before the scandal became public. At the time, he says, he "thought it was bogus." Little did he know.

It's hard to believe that Governor Spitzer thought he could keep his patronage of prostitutes secret for long, given his political prominence. As we heard someone quip on a talk radio show a few days ago, "Does he really believe that prostitutes don't read newspapers?"

Wait, I thought the reason working class whites weren't voting for Clinton was because they're racists? Get your story straight!

I believe Rendell is also arguing that Clinton can win TX

And if she wins Ohio, Texas, Pennsylvania, Michigan, Florida on top of all the other big states she won, if she wins the key states that are going to decide the election, let's go with our strongest hand because the issues are too important to risk losing."

Obama in some polls is one point behind McCain in TX. And that ain't gonna happen either. Neither is Florida. Please. Democrats. Forget Florida. Look west.

somehow we've gotten twisted around in knots over this sort of thing.

Because the Clinton camp keeps repeating "2+2=5! 2+2=5! 2+2=5!" with such conviction.

but somehow we've gotten twisted around in knots over this sort of thing.

Somehow? It's Clinton's campaign spin, thast's how.

Uh, thanks for that, BA.

I don't "we" have gotten twisted in knots about this; rather, it's in the interest of the trailing Clinton campaign and their media/blog mouthpieces to peddle this line about Obama, as getting people to believe this is the only way Clinton can persuade superdelegates.

What bugs me about this argument is that the Clinton people are essentially admitting they are going to run a John Kerry "let's only campaign in 10 states and try to win 285-255" strategy. That hasn't worked out so well for Democrats the last two cycles.

"What bugs me about this argument is that the Clinton people are essentially admitting they are going to run a John Kerry "let's only campaign in 10 states and try to win 285-255" strategy. That hasn't worked out so well for Democrats the last two cycles."

Yes, and the media never ask this question--how does Clinton plan on winning such a close general election when she'll have to tear the Democratic Party in two in order to get the nomination in the first place?

Having lived in PA and OH, I do fear for Obama's prospects there. I still want him to be the nom, but ...

I've interpreted this line of argument as a wink-wink way of telling superdelegates that the black candidate will hand white or Hispanic Clinton/Gore/Kerry voters to McCain. The only data points they have to bolster what must be a gut feeling for a lot of the SDs are one Pew poll (which showed Obama and Clinton doing the same against McCain as Obama won indies and lost 1/6 of Democrats to the 1/12 she lost) and the mysterious inability of this guy to lock the nomination down by winning a superstate.

Obama also probably has a better vertical leap and time in the 40. He's lucky that way.

There's nothing paradoxical or even counterintuitive about that, but somehow we've gotten twisted around in knots over this sort of thing.

Not really. The Clinton campaign has been trying ot muddy the waters and the pundits have been giving it a bit of play, but it seems that the reasonable people following the campaign understand this point well enough.

Quite frankly a comment like Hillary is going "to tear the Democratic Party in two in order to get the nomination" is stupid. How is it possible that when there are two candidates in a close election, only one of them can possibly be tearing the party in half? If John Edwards had picked up a third of the delegates so far and it was a three person race down to the end, would you say that Hillary was tearing the party to thirds?

It's a fucking political race. There are currently two candidates. About half the Democrats voting prefer one and about half prefer the other. It sounds like we are tearing ourselves in half.

Jeezus.

Ha ha. Enough of this crap.

I heard that Obama is Client No. 8.

How is it possible that when there are two candidates in a close election, only one of them can possibly be tearing the party in half?

Only one of them regularly insults the people voting for the other one, a ritual mocked on this very blog.

I can't bring myself to vote for Hillary because she'll just re-unite the Repubs and it'll be 1993 all over again.

Wouldn't a McCain victory result in more down-ticket wins for Dems in the long run?

"It's a fucking political race. There are currently two candidates."


Yes. There is one candidate who will win more states, will almost certainly win more delegates and will likely win more popular votes. There is another candidate who will win fewer states, will almost certainly win fewer delegates and will likely win fewer popular votes. And it's the second candidate who's making it clear she's going to do absolutely anything to muscle her way to the nomination despite all that.

Mike

"How is it possible that when there are two candidates in a close election, only one of them can possibly be tearing the party in half?"

Because only one of them is arguing in favor of super delegates overturning the results of the delegate race. If Hillary had the 150-200 delegate lead at this point, Obama folks would have nothing to complain about.

How is it possible that when there are two candidates in a close election, only one of them can possibly be tearing the party in half?

It's possible when one of them is going after the Repulican nominee, and one of them is going after the Dem candidate.

Matt,

You're a racist, or a sexist, or a racist-sexist, I can't tell which anymore!

Geraldine F, your comment was F'ing hilarious!

Folks, I've looked at the math and neither candidate can win without superdelegates. It can not be decided without them and they can vote however they want. Bitch, piss, and moan about this all you want, but it is a fact. No one is automatically guaranteed a superdelegate vote based on anything. And I seriously don't think for one second that the Obama team would not be making essentially the same arguments if they were in the same position. Please.

As others have said, "we" aren't mixed up about anything. The Clintons are trying to make the absurd case that losing in the primary means losing in the GE (except, of course, for those states like WA and CO and MN and WI and VA that she herself lost). It's disheartening that their spin seems to have spun you as well.

Arrow's Theorem! Condorcet criterion!

Sen. Clinton has repeatedly proven she's the best candidate. She thrives when tested under pressure. She dominates the issues and has the solutions America needs. Why is it that a hard working-goal oriented woman is often portrayed as an unscrupulous b*tch? Sexism is as bad as racism in America, but often more tolerated: that's disgusting!

I think that what upsets a lot of us Obamabots isn't that Clinton's strategy is based on persuading superdelegates to vote for her, but that it's based on persuading superdelegates to vote for her by poisoning Obama's prospects in the general election in November, thus leaving superdelegates with the choices of either making her the nominee or nominating Obama, whom Clinton has not only campaigned against vis-à-vis herself, but has campaigned against vis-à-vis John McCain.

Now, some Clinton supporters are likely to say "John McCain would make those attacks anyway. If Obama's so fragile that he can't take it, he shouldn't be in this race anyway." However, I never said that I think that Clinton's strategy would work. I think Obama will probably win the primaries and win the November presidential elections in spite of Clinton's tactics. However, that doesn't mean that I have to just grin and bear Clinton's tactics without complaint when her tactics are based on effectively blackmailing the party with the prospect of general election defeat if they don't make her the nominee.

It does seem to be Clinton camp spin that is creating some of the confusion--their idea that Obama can't win a big state in the nomination therefore he won't in the general and therefore he can't win the general. While most people who know about these things know the argument doesn't run through that doesn't stop the narrative's appealing simplicity from catching on. It also keeps the race alive, which is in the interest of the punditocracy.

The Critic is a fucking idiot.Bitch, piss and moan all you want but the fact is that only one candidate has demonstated a willingness to piss all over the democratic process in her pursuit of power..Only one of the candidates is willing to use right wing talking points to belittle the LIKELY Democratic nominee in a vein attempt to muddy the waters enough to allow insiders to overturn the will of the people.Clintons supporters are becoming just as patehtic as the Clinton campaign which, in itself, is quite an acomplishment.

Any true Democrat will vote Democratic in the election regardless of the person chosen in the primary process. If you threaten not to - you're not a true Democrat - you're a fairweather friend of the party.

Honestly take a step back, take a deep breath and wonder - do I really have the balls to vote Republican if my chosen candidate doesn't win the primary? Come on, people. I've tried it with only our city's elections and can't make myself do it.

That's why the argument that Obama or Clinton will win a tried and true Republican state is so incredibly ridiculous. No true conservative is gonna hang it in and vote Democratic just because they hate McCain. They just aren't going to believe that a Democrat in the White House is going to be better for them - that's not their political belief system.

The people who have that level of antipathy won't vote at all - not vote for the other party - because their candidate lost the primary. If there is crossover due to this hatred of the candidate it will be negligible on both sides.

Both sides are spinning and if you can't see that - you don't understand how politics is played in this country. And if you believe Obama isn't spinning or playing politics, you keep living in that world, because I'm sure it's better than this reality-based one where I am.

Only fairweather friends of the party have Lanny(fuck democratic primary voters)davis shilling for her on CNN..I wonder:when, not if , when Obama formally secures the nomination if Hillary's desperate, pathetic, supporters will convince her to run as an independent?

Count me as a fairweather friend of the party, a registered Democrat only because I came of age under Dubya but with more left-libertarian views than anything (i.e. the exact opposite of what the Republican party has become). I will certainly not vote for Clinton in any election. Why? Because character matters. I have voted for Republicans in the past, when the Democrat was involved in a scandal or push-polled me. I may even vote for McCain simply to reject the ridiculous race-baiting filth spewing forth from the Clinton campaign. McCain has been quick to denounce surrogates who have stepped out of line in a way that Clinton has not. I did not start out the primary season this way, Clinton has forced me into this position with her despicable actions.

Julene, you're generally right that most people have already made up their minds. That said, there is more to elections, and more to voting, than checking off the (R)s and (D)s. Certainly I would vote for either Clinton or Obama. Many others would too. Regrettably, many would also vote for McCain, regardless of the Democratic nominee or how the Democratic nominee or McCain runs.

However, election results do change from year to year -- and not just at a glacial pace as new cohorts turn 18 or old ones die off. No true Democrat would fail to vote for the Democratic nominee, nor Republican for the Republican nominee -- but a lot of people aren't either true Democrats or true Republicans. Some are on the fence (e.g. "I'm a pro-life, anti-same sex marriage Catholic who thinks corporations are running amock with CEO pay and wrecking the environment and that the invasion of Iraq was a crime against peace."). Others are semi-apoltical, and could be persuaded to vote for one or the other if they like him or her enough, or could be persuaded to drop out of politics altogether if they don't like any of them.

In short, it may be true that for many people -- probably most voters -- the minds are already made up, and partisan loyalties are more important than individual candidates, but there are enough people who don't have made up minds to make a difference. That's why the results of 1988 were different from the results of 1992 were different from the results of 1996 were different from the results of 2000... and so on.

I am an Obama supporter and would vote for Clinton in the general (though, man, she's not making it easy for me these last few weeks). But this kind of stuff drives me crazy:

Any true Democrat will vote Democratic in the election regardless of the person chosen in the primary process. If you threaten not to - you're not a true Democrat - you're a fairweather friend of the party.

It's incredibly ass-backwards. We do not owe loyalty to parties or politicians: they owe loyalty to us. Politicians are not intended to be rulers: the people are supposed to rule, with the politicians representing them. It's horribly illiberal to demand that people who feel that they are ill-treated by the party or a particular candidate vote for that party or candidate regardless.

Any true Democrat will vote Democratic in the election regardless of the person chosen in the primary process. If you threaten not to - you're not a true Democrat - you're a fairweather friend of the party.

Okay... I guess the past five presidential elections, ever since my first vote in 1988, have been "fairweather" periods for the Party, then. Actually, I won't vote for HRC in the general, won't apologize for it, know that in my state it won't matter (wouldn't saying certain states don't matter make me a 'true [Clinton] Democrat?- hm, depressing) anyway, and would intend for my abstinence (not voting for McCain either) to be my small statement of disassociation from a completely idiotic and shortsighted political party. If 'true Democrats' want to jettison (or worse, bully into compliance in order to serve a dying coalition) college-educated people, a new generation even larger than the boomers', an entire race, and Democrats who either aren't registered or live in states that 'don't count,' and throw away great opportunities for Congressional gains, then they're just too embarrassingly stupid to for me to value the connection. Let 'em figure out how to survive-- God knows they won't be able to actually grow the party, not that they seem to want to do anything that crazy-- with whoever's left.

We do not owe loyalty to parties or politician.

Amen. Even worse, if the commissars were 100% effective there would no reason ever not to make political calculus to try and suck in the non kool-aid drinking party faithful.

Has anyone seen or commented on the Jeremiah Wright sermons posted on RealClear Politics (and shown on some TV stations) today? I'm not that anti-Obama, I'm really not, I'd vote for him in the fall--(only because of his Iraq war stand) but the Wright stuff is really over the top. "Not God Bless America, God Damm America". Barack sat in these pews for twenty years. There's no way he could win a presidential election. A vote for Barack in the primaries seems to me a vote for 10,000 years in Iraq, or whatever McCain promises.

The line about party loyalty and fairweather friends is exactly why I don't want to join any party. I'm an Independent who basically votes Democrat, but has no interest in being told that I must follow the party line regardless of my conscience. Sorry, but any party that has the Clintons in a position of power has earned my mistrust ten times over.

Julene - A true Democrat? Ha. A bit of divisiveness, eh?

Calling yourself a "true Democrat" is ridiculous. You just align yourself with a party, and not a philosophy, thus entrapping yourself in that "our team versus their team" mentality. Unfortunately the electoral college encourages this approach...

I definitely support Democrats most of the time, but I'll never consider myself a "true Democrat," and I hope to never be labeled as one, either.

Re: I may even vote for McCain simply to reject the ridiculous race-baiting filth spewing forth from the Clinton campaign.

If that's all you care about you are, to be blunt, an idiot.
Please think what a McCain presidency means: it's a third Bush term for crying out loud! If you are so turned off by Bush and Gang, then put down your crack pipe and think about what four more years of the same will mean. Far, far worse than having a woman who fights hard and a little dirty. I'm actually happy someone in the Democratic party is willing to campaign this way instead of getting a fit of the vapors everytime some mean old Republican barks at them. At least we know Hillary can reply to potential swift-boat slanderers by nuking them out of the water. Sorry, dude, but to defeat what the GOP has become we have to fight hard and dirty. That's reality, Deal with it. Myself, I'd vote for Paris Hilton, Cruella DeVille or a stray alley cat to get the GOP out the White House. (Likewise should Obama be the nominee I won't care if he picks his nose during the national anthem or is married to Countess Dracula: he will also get my vote) Some things matter a lot more than political correctness! If you can't understand that, then you're not part of any solution, you're part of the problem.

No, JonF, you and the other Clinton folks are idiots for taking the nomination, and now Obama supporters, for granted.

Even if you can steal it now, you'll never win the general.

Thanks assclowns.

JonF, I am not sure nominating Paris Hilton, far less Cruella or an alleycat, would do much to win us the White House.... Or do your sources know something different?

JonF - You're going to win over a lot of independents with that "you're an idiot" line, I bet. Face The Music is right, and whoever said that ethics count is right, also.

How you conduct your campaign reflects on how you'll conduct your presidency. Clinton: "pander-bear" in '92, ran his presidency largely on how opinion polls were. Bush resorted to push-polling against McCain in South Carolina, showing disdain for anything resembling chivalry or honesty, and now we have Gitmo and "extraordinary renditions" and warrant-less wire-taps.

Clinton's strategy is to polarize things and win on the hopes that people just want something different - basically by taking you and voters like you for granted. I realize that the Supreme Court could look even worse after a McCain presidency, but I'll sacrifice that in order to spit in Hillary's face by staying home in November. Political scientists will take note at the dramatic difference between primary turn-out and general election turnout, and will draw conclusions based on that. They'll conclude that Hillary's campaign was so horribly run that she managed to lose to a Republican after another Republican engaged us in an unpopular war and a receding economy, and she managed to lose a the presidency even though it was in the bag for Democrats, and future campaigns will take note.

People always get upset about the upcoming election. It's always "the most important election of our lifetime." Well, I have news for you - the one after that will be even more important.

Especially if Hillary keeps voters like me at home.

I am registered as a Democrat in Florida, a swing state, and I couldn't possibly vote for Hillary Clinton in the general election. His stance on the Iraq war aside, John McCain is not a terrible choice for President. The Republicans have chosen the right candidate this year. McCain can win swing votes, like mine, in swing states.

Barack Obama is the best shot Democrats have this year. If the super-delegates hand the nomination to Hillary Clinton, the party loses my vote in the general election. I've also been donating to Obama's campaign, and will continue to do so in the general election, but I couldn't possibly give a cent to Hillary Clinton's campaign.

OtherScott -- That statement is not so different than Falwell and Robertson blaming bad weather on the sinful people who live where it strikes. Let's face it, godbotherers believe that an omnipotent being sits around wreaking punishment on various parts of earth, possibly based on the the imprecations called down on them by preachers. Might as well make atheism a requirement forpublic office if you are going to start casting people out because their preacher gives a fire breathing sermon.

THIS IS EXCELLENT NEWS!! FOR HILLARY!!!

Obama in some polls is one point behind McCain in TX. And that ain't gonna happen either. Neither is Florida. Please. Democrats. Forget Florida. Look west.
Posted by Jim | March 13, 2008 4:35 PM

Excellent post. Which is why I'm with Obama, he would do a lot better there than HRC.

DON'T BE DUPED!!!

Large numbers of Republicans have been voting for Barack Obama in the DEMOCRATIC primaries, and caucuses. Because they feel he would be a weaker opponent against John McCain. And because they feel that a Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama ticket would be unbeatable. And also because with a Clinton and Obama ticket you are almost 100% certain to get quality, affordable universal health care very soon.

But first, all of you have to make certain that Hillary Clinton takes the democratic nomination and then the Whitehouse. NOW! is the time. THIS! is the moment you have all been working, and waiting for. You can do this America. “Carpe diem” (harvest the day).

I think Hillary Clinton see’s a beautiful world of plenty, and comfort for all. She is a woman, and a mother. And it’s time America. Do this for your-self, and your children’s future. You will have to work together on this and be aggressive, relentless, and creative. Americans face an even worse catastrophe ahead than the one you are living through now.

You see, the medical and insurance industry mostly support the republicans with the money they ripped off from you. And they don’t want you to have quality, affordable universal health care. They want to be able to continue to rip you off, and kill you and your children by continuing to deny you life saving medical care that you have already paid for. So they can continue to make more immoral profits for them-self.

Hillary Clinton has actually won by much larger margins than the vote totals showed. And lost by much smaller vote margins than the vote totals showed. Her delegate count is actually much higher than it shows. And higher than Obama’s. HILLARY CLINTON IS ALREADY THE TRUE DEMOCRATIC NOMINEE!

As much as 30% of Obama's primary, and caucus votes are Republicans trying to choose the weakest democratic candidate for McCain to run against. These Republicans have been gaming the caucuses where it is easier to vote cheat. This is why Obama has not been able to win the BIG! states primaries. Even with Republican vote cheating help.

Hillary Clinton has been out manned, out gunned, and out spent 2 and 3 to 1. Yet Obama has only been able to manage a very tenuous, and questionable tie with Hillary Clinton.

If Obama is the democratic nominee for the national election in November he will be slaughtered. Because the Republican vote cheating help will suddenly evaporate. All of this vote fraud and republican manipulation has made Obama falsely look like a much stronger candidate than he really is. YOUNG PEOPLE. DON’T BE DUPED! Think about it. You have the most to lose.

The democratic party needs to fix this outrage. I suggest a Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama ticket now! Everyone needs to throw all your support to Hillary Clinton NOW! So you can end this outrage against YOU the voter, and against democracy.

I think Barack Obama has a once in a life time chance to make the ultimate historic gesture for unity, and change in America by accepting Hillary Clinton’s offer as running mate. Such an act now would for ever seal Barack Obama’s place at the top of the list of Americas all time great leaders, and unifiers for all of history. But the time to act is soon.

The democratic party, and the super-delegates have a decision to make. Are the democrats, and the democratic party going to choose the DEMOCRATIC party nominee to fight for the American people. Or are the republicans going to choose the DEMOCRATIC party nominee through vote fraud, and gaming the DEMOCRATIC party primaries, and caucuses.

Fortunately the Clinton’s have been able to hold on against this fraudulent outrage with those repeated dramatic comebacks of Hillary Clinton’s. Only the Clinton’s are that resourceful, and strong. Hillary Clinton is your NOMINEE. They are the best I have ever seen.

“This is not a game” (Hillary Clinton)

Sincerely

jacksmith...

The Critic is a fucking idiot.Bitch, piss and moan all you want but the fact is that only one candidate has demonstated a willingness to piss all over the democratic process in her pursuit of power..Only one of the candidates is willing to use right wing talking points to belittle the LIKELY Democratic nominee in a vein attempt to muddy the waters enough to allow insiders to overturn the will of the people.Clintons supporters are becoming just as patehtic as the Clinton campaign which, in itself, is quite an acomplishment.

I'll assume there's some kind of a nugget of an idea's seed in there. Tell me what a "vein (sic) attempt to muddy the waters enough to allow insider to overturn the will of the people" might consist of, because I'm curious. She'll muddy the waters so that superdelegates --who by party rules are free to vote however they wish, and who neither candidate can win without--will vote in her favor? Are you somehow of the notion that Barack is not wooing superdelegates to his side?

Let's go to the tape:

Obama, who narrowly leads in the count of pledged, "non-super" delegates, has doled out more than $694,000 to superdelegates from his political action committee, Hope Fund, or campaign committee since 2005....[Clinton's] PAC, HILLPAC, and campaign committee appear to have distributed $195,500 to superdelegates

Oh noooesss, Barack is buying the Presidency by contributing to the superdelegates. What an affront to decency and humanity and the notion that he is an unsullied god.

Please. Grow up.

My point here is that both candidates are in this and are fighting to win, both candidates have near equal claims to the Presidency based on delegates and votes. They just do it with different math in different places.

But somehow, only Hillary is eeeeeevil. Somehow she's overturning the democratic process, but exactly how is that being done? What precisely is the terrible terrible thing that Hillary has done to disenfranchise you, you icky wittle baby?

You have a childish view of politics, a stupid view of the world, and are yourself mouthing "rightwing talking point" in your characterization of Clinton.

I've said this before and I've said it elsewhere, but the level of venomous accusations thrown at Hillary are simply ridiculous and they are fed from Scaife-funded bullshit from the 90s. The characterization of Hillary comes straight out of the Arkansas Project that she's some mega-conniving, ultra-shrew bitch who would rather burn the whole world to the ground rather than lose what she thinks is rightfully hers. I'm not saying she's not calculating, artful, dissembling--gasp, just like all politicians--I'm saying that when I read comment threads, you'd think it was some fanboy thread about a comic book villainess with a snake head that shoots fire from her eyes.

That's kind of lame to repeat that sort of stuff, but I guess that's what millions of dollars buys you.

The Critic,

She is the devil, she is shit, she is puss, she is vomit, she is worse than fucking Cheney for Christs sake. She proves it more every day, she and the odious piece of shit Mark Penn, she will lose all 50 states if she is nominated, she is in the process of destroying the party. If she is the nominee I will vote for McCain (in fact, if she does I promise you that that day I will mail a substantial donation to McCain), even though he himself is almost satanically evil. The remaining sad Hillary supporters deserve all of the bad things that will happen to this country when the madman McCain becomes president. And I will laugh in your fucking faces when it happens.

May she and everyone of her supporters burn in the fires of hell for all eternity.

This is what happens when LarryM forgets to take his meds.

Larry, this is your doctor. TAKE YOUR MEDS.

jacksmith: that rant was incoherent the first time round.

Here's my take: the Platonic ideal of Hillary Clinton would be a compelling nominee. The Hillary Clinton that has campaigned over the past three months is not.

I'll say it again: the Clinton campaign's strategy of 'states I win in the primary count, everyone else, not so much' dictates a general election strategy that is Kerry+130k votes. It can't easily go back to Missouri or Virginia or Colorado. Obama can go to California and New York and Ohio and Texas and say 'I respected your votes first time round.' As Scheiber's data suggests, he can do that in PA regardless of the results. I can't see Hillary drawing crowds in St Louis.

She's toast. She's still in the race in the hope that she can find a 'dead girl / live boy' that kills Obama's campaign, not for pledged delegates. That approach has a slender chance of working, and if it does, its very nature dooms us to President McCain.

What about the Hispanic vote? It seems that if Clinton wins the nomination Hispanics will be energized and blacks will be upset, and vice-versa if Obama wins. But the impact of disaffected Hispanics would be bigger in the general. 90%+ of the black vote will go to the Democratic nominee, even if it's Hillary. But if Obama is the nominee, a significant minority of Hispanics could stay home or vote for McCain.

"What about the Hispanic vote? It seems that if Clinton wins the nomination Hispanics will be energized and blacks will be upset, and vice-versa if Obama wins. But the impact of disaffected Hispanics would be bigger in the general. 90%+ of the black vote will go to the Democratic nominee, even if it's Hillary. But if Obama is the nominee, a significant minority of Hispanics could stay home or vote for McCain.

Posted by Fred | March 14, 2008 2:27 AM"

If you think 90% of black voters will vote for a race-baiter, think again.

Something that has driven me insane about this electoral season is that there has been no attempt in the MSM to actually point to why so many Latinos vote for Clinton and I don't buy "Latinos hate black people" card. It doesn't seem to me that Latinos hate Obama the way black voters now hate Clinton. In fact, Bill Clinton now has net negatives because so many African-Americans now look poorly on him. It's also worth putting out the idea that breaking the lock on only having white men will actually make it easier in the future to have a Latin candidate because that shows people will actually vote for a non-white person.

Hillary is a "race-baiter" now? The Wall Street Journal had it right Thursday, Obamatons are too quick to play the race card: "Obama and the Race Card".

An excerpt:

Democrats have repeatedly touted the diversity of their party's White House hopefuls. And it is true that a Clinton or Obama Presidency would make gender or racial history. Americans of all backgrounds can take satisfaction in watching the country field its first black Presidential candidate with a chance to win. But voters also want their would-be Presidents properly vetted, by the media and by each other. To that end Mr. Obama would do better to focus more on answering his political critics with specifics and less on questioning their motives by crying wolf on race.

jacksmith -- I think you're a little confused. Republicans are crossing into Democratic primaries to vote for Hillary Clinton for strategic purposes. This strategy was urged by Rush Limbaugh.

Now, some Republicans and independents have voted for Obama, but there is no evidence that they voted strategically in large numbers. It's possible, of course, but there's no evidence that they're voting for Obama because they think Clinton's a stronger candidate for November, as opposed to just voting for Obama because they like him.

The only coordinated effort to convince Republicans to vote strategically was carried out on behalf of Clinton, publicized by Rush Limbaugh. That's not Clinton's fault, or anything; it's not as if she and Limbaugh have any kind of agreement. Also, Limbaugh isn't some political supergenius and he could well be wrong in his view that Clinton is the weaker general election candidate. Nonetheless, the fact of the matter is that the only substantiated instances of strategic voting by Republicans in an attempt to sabotage the Democrats has meant votes for Clinton.

Ugh... I keep screwing up links for some reason. Here's the link:

http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/site_022608/content/01125110.guest.html

Limbaugh isn't saying that Hillary's the weaker general election candidate. His line is that Republicans should vote for her because it keeps the Democrats fighting each other. "We need to keep chaos alive."

Fred,

That piece from the Wall Street Journal is so off base. So Obama was supposed to shut up when Ferraro made that comment. While I agree that Obama need to counteract his critics with specifics but in this instance she was belittling Obama's candidacy. I get the feeling that WSJ had been wanting to write this type of editorial but were looking for an occasion to do so, or otherwise that asinine editorial would never have been published. You conservatives are so tone deaf when it comes to matters of race, that you can't even distinguish legitimate racist remarks from non-legitimate ones.

She is the devil, she is shit, she is puss, she is vomit, she is worse than fucking Cheney for Christs sake.

Rarely does the opportunity to be proven right present itself so forcefully and so immediately. Bravo, Larry M. Now do as the nice doctor tells you.


Comments closed March 27, 2008.

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