Jews and Hagee

Gershom Gorenberg writes:

But Jews should be joining Catholics on this one. If McCain were as pro-Israel as Hagee says he is, the candidate would want nothing to do with Hagee. You don’t back a democracy by siding with someone who regards a handgun as the means to change policy. There is a certain dissonance between supporting a country and giving theological justifications for the murder of its elected leader. We don’t even have to talk about Hagee's earnest hopes for war on Israeli soil, or his classic theological delegitimization of Judaism.

I completely agree, but of course it doesn't seem like it's going to be in the cards. It was about a year ago today that I found myself wondering why AIPAC was putting Hagee on a panel described as "Two eloquent voices from diverse backgrounds explore the history of U.S. involvement in the Middle East and how Americans from all faiths can find common cause in supporting Israel." It's certainly true that Hagee's group, Christians United for Israel, shows that Americans can support Israel for all sorts of reasons, ranging from concern for the welfare of the Jewish people to a desire to see Israel conquered by a Russo-Arab alliance in order to hasten the End Times, but sometimes the whole "big tent" concept can go too far.

Presumably what's happening is that we have a lot of snobs among the leaders of American Jewry who figure they can use and manipulate rednecks like Hagee. And maybe so. Still, it seems to me that in a country where we're a tiny minority group, it makes a lot more sense for American Jews to build alliances with non-Jews who aren't aiming at our short-term destruction.

Comments

it seems to me that in a country where we're a tiny minority group, it makes a lot more sense for American Jews to build alliances with non-Jews who aren't aiming at our short-term destruction.

That's because you're playing checkers while AIPAC plays chess! Short-term destruction is the greatest guarantor of long term Jewish success. Think of it this way: if the Christians bring about the end of the world, God's going to be pretty pissed, Jesus or no Jesus, and the Jews might be able to move back into the pole position.

Think ahead a little, Yglesias.

Posted by SomeCallMeTim | March 3, 2008 10:29 AM

1) What I wonder about is why Hagee attracts no significant criticism --either from liberals or from mainstream Christians -- even though his policies are, in my opinion, deeply disloyal both to the United States and to Christianity.

2) I think Hagee shows how our respect for religion --enshined in the Constitution and law -- can be abused by people who I consider to be political con artists.

3) If you were a running a political campaign, what better setup than running as a church? Tax free income for the leaders, tax free funds for operations, tax free property, use of the public airwaves to broadcast your message.

Actually, that's a pretty good system for subversion as well. Nothing like gaining converts by "charity" mixed with brainwashing.

Posted by Don Williams | March 3, 2008 10:41 AM

Oh, I forgot the best part: No accounting for WHOM is dumping big chunks of cash into the collection plate. None of that tiresome FEC accounting and regulations or limits.

Posted by Don Williams | March 3, 2008 10:44 AM

From a strictly cynical perspective, Hagee and his flock aren't such bad allies for supporters of Israel's national interest.

In the near term, both groups believe that America should support Isreal with money and military hardware, and that the Isreali government should be able to act as it pleases in the Middle East.

In the long term, Hagee expects the Second Coming to arrive, as God descends from the heavens to visit all sorts of nastiness on the Jews. If you aren't particularly convinced that the First Coming has arrived yet, the Second is, understandably, rather low on your list of concerns.

So Hagee will continue his present course indefinitely, permanently convinced that the Apocolypse is just around the corner, and AIPAC will continue to accept his support, and to cordially ignore his advice.

Posted by heedless | March 3, 2008 10:50 AM

It would seem more straightforward for the 'mainstream'/i.e. right-wing/settler-enabling jewish israeli-lobby organisations first to deal with their own bigotry vis-a-vis arabs. As long as they adopt the policies they do, allying with the Hagees would seem to the least of possible criticisms.

Posted by otto | March 3, 2008 10:59 AM

Hagee doesn't care about American Jewry - it's only the real ones in Israel that he's interested in. American Jews are part of the problem...except for Lieberman of course.

Posted by berger | March 3, 2008 11:11 AM

"Two eloquent voices from diverse backgrounds explore the history of U.S. involvement in the Middle East and how Americans from all faiths can find common cause in supporting Israel."

When they say 'Americans from all faiths', do they mean Muslims as well? How about the displaced Palestinian Christians? Or are they just not considered American?

Posted by PGS | March 3, 2008 11:12 AM

oh Hagee cares about the Jews alright. he can spot them and their influence a mile away.

Posted by cleek | March 3, 2008 11:29 AM

Well, don't forget that it's important to have a fair public representation of the demented-lunatic segment of the electorate.

After all, demented lunatics should have their voices heard just like every other type of American citizen...

Posted by RKU | March 3, 2008 11:29 AM

There's the MY snark I like.

Posted by aleks | March 3, 2008 11:30 AM

There's the MY snark I like.

Posted by aleks | March 3, 2008 11:32 AM

Israel's national interest is not just about border security, and I'd doubt it's even well served by the Hagee/settler position, but about preserving its status as a symbol of freedom for Jews everywhere. Legitimizing an anti-semite therefore cannot be pro-Israel.

Posted by David B. | March 3, 2008 11:40 AM

hail eris

William Kristol is a discordian

hail eris

Posted by Ron O'Neal | March 3, 2008 11:44 AM

I know Hitler analogies are rightfully frowned upon, but AIPAC's embrace of John Hagee reminds one of the partial embrace of Hitler by conservative business and military leaders in Germany in the early 1930s. He can do damage to our enemies on the left, and we can manipulate and ultimately outmanuever him and his ignorant followers if they ever become a real threat.

Posted by Ben | March 3, 2008 11:46 AM

Thank you, Ben, for reminding us all why Hitler references are frowned upon.

Try a new simile, please.

Posted by heedless | March 3, 2008 12:03 PM

Try a new simile, please.

Okay... AIPAC's embrace of a man who blames Jewish "disobedience" (i.e., failure to convert to Christianity) for the Shoah, who advocates American foreign policy being used to provoke a massive multilateral attack on Israel, and who made excuses for Rabin's assassin, is like, um, nonspecific groups making common cause with someone nonspecific who advocates violence against Jews, because they think they can keep him and his followers under control for their own political advantage? Goodness, this is harder than I thought.

Posted by mds | March 3, 2008 12:36 PM

Re Ben

Godwins' law invoked again.

Posted by SLC | March 3, 2008 12:36 PM

Two things, Matt:

(1) You really owe Hagee an apology, based on the weight of his work on this topic. Go to the sources, rather than the ideologically tainted rants of his critics. His philosophy, in brief, is as he writes: "Anti-semitism is a sin and sin damns the soul. It is time for Christians to stop praising the dead Jews of the past - Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, while slandering the Jews across the street. They are the same family." He states further that "The first family of Christianity are Jewish...if you take away the contribution of Judaism to Christianity, there would be no Christianity. The Jewish people do not need Christianity to explain their existence. But Christians cannot explain our existence without the Jews." Now, this is standard dispensationalist theory, not unique to Hagee by any means, but it is the nub of his support for Jews and for Israel. Compare and contrast Hagee et al with traditional Roman Catholic and left wing Protestant supercessionism. The former see proof of G-d's existence in the success of the Jews, the later in the Jew's suffering and (eventual) disappearance.

(2) Hagee and others like him are not aiming for the short term destruction of the Jews. That would be, say, the Moslem Brotherhood and the Saudis, the conspiracy nuts, the anti-religious, and most leftists (including a good chunk of the faculty at most American universities). You know, the "progressives."

Posted by Eagle613 | March 3, 2008 1:12 PM

How exactly has Hagee worked for the destruction of Israel ?

In fact, every action of his, and Falwell's, and Robertson's, has worked to make Israel stronger and stronger.

Posted by Ron | March 3, 2008 1:53 PM

All Xtians believe that Jews are going to Hell for not recognizing their Man-God.

Posted by David | March 3, 2008 2:16 PM

"How exactly has Hagee worked for the destruction of Israel ?"

When someone like Hagee decides that the end times will occur on his shift, exactly according to his English translation, he piles error atop error to encourage a battle that may serve no purpose under God.

If a war of the sort he envisions occurs, it would leave the State of Israel in ruins, no matter who the victor. If the Second Coming doesn't follow immediately thereafter, the ruin will have been futile. If he survives to survey his work, I'd bet the Hagee will follow in the footsteps of the original patriarchs of the Second Day Adventists, and assume he just needed to tweak his calculations. Heaven forbid that he admit he might have been utterly wrong.

Posted by cmholm | March 3, 2008 2:35 PM

Eagle--just because somebody says they're not anti-semitic doesn't mean they actually aren't anti-semitic. Personally,I find Hagee to be every bit as anti-semitic as Farrakhan and wonder why the press has picked up primarily on his anti-Catholic statements while largely ignoring the bile he spills forth about the Jews. Despite their "support" of Israel, the radical Christian right are not Israel's friends. For them, the only good Jew is one who eventually converts to Christianity; otherwise, it's off to hell with us. The only reason Israel and the Jews are important is because of the role they play in bringing on the Apocalypse.

As the saying goes, with friends like Hagee, who needs enemies?

Posted by mbtogut | March 3, 2008 6:12 PM

I am just wondering when we are going to get some justice for 9/11, USS Liberty, Lavon Affair just to name a few that were orchestrated by this Zionist Jewish cabal that has been ingrained in our government with out any regard to American interests clearly. Its Israel's 60th year anniversary this year..... I say we throw them a party... A party of bombs and pissed off US troops that have been suckered into fighting their wars. This crap is getting ridiculous and when Americans finally pull their head out of the sand and look at the BIG WHITE ELEPHANT in the room, there is going to be hell to pay. Hopefully that wont come before they do another 9/11 since its an Israeli based security company in charge of our military nukes.... Go figure.

Posted by Mike Delaney | March 3, 2008 7:42 PM

"After all, demented lunatics should have their voices heard just like every other type of American citizen..."

Thanks, I appreciate that. I'll quote that the next time SLC drops in to accuse me of being some demented ex-con.

Hagee: "The first family of Christianity are Jewish...if you take away the contribution of Judaism to Christianity, there would be no Christianity. The Jewish people do not need Christianity to explain their existence. But Christians cannot explain our existence without the Jews."

He's got that part right. Jesus had no intention of forming a new religion, still less one that would persecute his own people in his name for the next two thousand years. Paul was stoned by the Jews for heresy and had to be put in "protective custody" by the Romans and escorted out of town by a couple hundred Roman soldiers when forty of Jesus' followers decided to kill him.

There would be no Christianity had they succeeded.

And that would have saved the lives of literally scores or hundreds of millions of people in subsequent history.

The rest of Eagle's comment, of course, is bullshit.

Posted by Richard Steven Hack | March 4, 2008 12:15 AM

"Eagle--just because somebody says they're not anti-semitic doesn't mean they actually aren't anti-semitic."

Eagle probably thinks that Mel Gibson wasn't anti-Semitic when he blamed all of the wars in the world on the Jews. It would be like if Hagee said, "I think racism against black people is wrong, but that doesn't mean I can't like slavery and the KKK."

Posted by Reality Man | March 4, 2008 12:34 AM

Well, you know, Jodie doesn't think Mel's anti-Semitic...

Like that's supposed to mean something, other than her defending the (unacknowledged) father of her kids...

It's weird how people think these religious fanatics are necessarily going to have some sort of internally consistent and logical belief system.

No - they hold contradictory positions all the time. And they don't care because reason is not part of their world view. Their world view is whatever their emotions demand, whatever they say it is, or whatever some book written by some hallucinating fanatical Bronze Age Libyan wrote two thousand years ago says.

Hagee appreciates Jews for starting Christianity - and he expects Christianity to finish off the Jews. And he has no problem with either of those positions, despite the fact that Jesus was in no sense a "Christian", and that the founder of Hagee's religion was actually condemned by Jesus' followers and Jesus' own brother.

Posted by Richard Steven Hack | March 4, 2008 1:40 AM

Make no mistake, Hagee is just as much a Jew-hater as all the rest of the Rapturists. Their whole philosophy rotates around their hope for an event in which Judaism itself will be exterminated; I do not want their charity today, thank you very much! In his book "Jerusalem Countdown", Hagee wrote that God sent Hitler to punish the Jews for having tried to live anyplace outside of Israel. In his worldview, the whole role of the Jew is to die, for various reasons. Include me out.

Posted by TTT | March 4, 2008 9:59 AM

as an ethiopian national living in america, i guess my question is "ain't i a jew?"

save ethiopian jewry!!!

Posted by anethiopianjew | March 4, 2008 12:42 PM

If you are a hard core settler, one of those who believes Israel deserves all of the land between the Med and the River Jordan, then at least in the short term people like Hagee are useful allies.
If you belong to any of the other political groupings in Israel, then you have a religious figure from another country telling you how to run your state.
I don't believe that would go over too well with most of Hagee's supporters. Just ask the Kerry/Edwards campaigns about the "international" test for military action. And that was just trying to get agreement from other states that are amongst America's staunchest allies.

Posted by jon | March 4, 2008 12:58 PM

I love the perspective of these posts. A guy like Hagee routinely denouces all Arabs and all Muslims as evil, and you guys focus on whether he's "anti-Semitic." If you had a shred of decency, the fact that he is an anti-Muslim and anti-Arab bigot would be enough.

But then, I guess they don't count....

Posted by Matthew | March 4, 2008 1:22 PM

In his weird eschatological stance toward Israel (and, let's not forget, toward "the Jews" in general) John Hagee resembles no one so much as his fellow evangelical Jimmy Carter.

Posted by Tim Hulsey | March 4, 2008 1:28 PM

Hagee isnt really stupid enough to believe the hogwash he's filling the trough with is he?

Nah, just another phoney huckster removing gobs of tax free cash from the ignorant and unwashed flocks.

It's the American way!

Posted by davidius | March 4, 2008 2:43 PM

Mr. Hack,

Jesus was not a Jew in the religious sense. He had no religion, since he was God Incarnate, and is properly regarded as the object of worship, not the subject. To claim he was a faithful religious Jew is to emphasize His humanity at the expense of His divinity in the most odious, neo-Nestorian, neo-Arian way.

Jesus most certainly came to Earth in part to found a new religion (more specifically, he came to Earth in order that we might be saved from our sinful nature through His death.)

Christianity can most certainly explain its existence in any way it chooses. The Jewish religion supplies a bit of background and cultural context, but the essence of Christianity is the New Testament. Jesus could have chosen to incarnate Himself in Mexico, India, Persia, or anywhere else. He happened to choose Palestine. Please don't overestimate the importance of Judaism in the economy of salvation. Jesus is universal, not Jewish.

How come whenever Jesus Christ addresses the Jews, he says 'You' and not 'We"?

Posted by Hector | March 4, 2008 4:15 PM

How come whenever Jesus Christ addresses the Jews, he says 'You' and not 'We"?

Hector,
Probably because he is taking a position in an argument contrary to the people he is disagreeing with. The same way I wouldnt say to you: "Hector, we are wrong when we make a statement like we made above"

Posted by yep | March 4, 2008 4:30 PM

Re Hector

1. If Joshua of Nazareth wasn't a Jew, how come he underwent a bris on the eighth day after birth (that's why Jan 1 is New Years Day)?

2. If Joshua of Nazareth wasn't a Jew, why was he so concerned about the money lenders carrying out their business in the Temple in Jerusalem?

Posted by SLC | March 4, 2008 4:54 PM

SLC,

Christ was raised within the Jewish cultural tradition, as he was a Jew through his adoptive father Joseph and possibly through his single biological parent St. Mary. Therefore, he responded to the Jewish tradition and couched his argument within that tradition.

However, what he taught was radically different from the Jewish religion, which as far as I know has no concept of the Incarnation, the Subtitutionary Atonement, etc. Jesus said clearly that He was the Son of God, of one being with the Father, and that the Holy Spirit is the third person of the Trinity. As for the bit about the moneylenders, that's just silly. I'm not a Muslim, but when I see Muslims engaging in polygamy, I deplore it.

Again, you are emphasizing His humanity and deemphasizing His divinity in a way that is completely false.

Posted by Hector | March 4, 2008 5:02 PM

Hector is clearly clueless about any rational analysis of the history of Christianity.

Pointless to discuss it with him.

Jesus was entirely Jewish in his entire outlook, as were his followers. He was not only a follower of the Jewish Law, he was a fanatical follower of the Jewish Law, as, again, were his followers.

Everything that Christians like Hector believe in was created by Paul, a Roman double agent send to infiltrate Jesus' movement.

For your information, Jesus never said he was the "Son of God" except in the sense that under Jewish law all men are the "sons of God." (A benighted and nationalist belief, at best.)

Posted by Richard Steven Hack | March 4, 2008 5:34 PM

The scary thing about Hagee is that Joe Lieberman and Tom Delay, along with McCain have praised the guy. Donahue doesn't have that kind of power. And its also ironic considering that we are fighting religious fanatics overseas.

Too much evil has been hidden in the guise of “faith”.

Posted by George Arndt | March 4, 2008 8:45 PM