Losing Ground

More evidence that the Clinton campaign's desperate flailing to find some way to overturn the outcome of the primary process is causing her to lose ground. Here's Eli Sanders in The Stranger out in Seattle:

Karina Putnam-Kaminsky, a manager at a downtown Seattle restaurant, is fed up. She was elected as a Clinton delegate at the Washington State caucuses on February 9 but says she's become so frustrated with Clinton's win-at-all-costs-and-despite-all-odds approach that she's going to switch her support to Obama when the Legislative District caucuses take place on April 5.

"It's highly unlikely that Clinton will get the nomination," Putnam-Kaminsky said. She went on to criticize the "wild, crazy, incendiary claims" that have been coming from the Clinton camp in recent weeks and said the "final straw" was Clinton's push to get the results of Florida and Michigan's rule-violating primaries to be counted. "It seemed kind of desperate," Putnam-Kaminsky said.

This probably won't make a huge difference in the end, but the number of people who actually understand what the Clinton victory scenario entails and still want it to happen is pretty tiny. After all, most Democratic activists, whether or not they like Hillary Clinton, don't want to see the party burned down for her sake.

Comments

I really do believe that Hillary is pursuing a scorched earth policy, whereby if she cannot win she wants to poison the well for Obama.

However, what I don't believe she counted on is the simply fact noted here: that too many people in the Democratic party would resent those tactics and be wise to them. And if the Democrats do not win the White House in November, now a good portion of that blame will go to Hillary Clinton.

The Democratic party needs to remind the Clintons that the party comes before the Clintons, not the other way around. The party has existed just fine without the Clintons, and will continue to do so in the future. In fact, the Clintons have been a very mixed bag for the party.

And now the Clintons are standing in the way of the most exciting, electable presidential candidate in at least an entire generation, one who can lead the party to far greater heights.

Someone needs to remind Hillary that now she is messing with her future career in the party, if their is to be one.

Posted by cm | March 29, 2008 6:57 AM

After all, most Democratic activists, whether or not they like Hillary Clinton, don't want to see the party burned down for her sake.

Another rendering of this sentence could be:

After all, most Democratic activists, unlike Hillary Clinton, don't want to see the party burned down for her sake.

After all, what are the Clintons, if not self-destructive?

Posted by nooneifnotme | March 29, 2008 7:03 AM

"This probably won't make a huge difference in the end, but the number of people who actually understand what the Clinton victory scenario entails and still want it to happen is pretty tiny."

That's certainly true. I think you could just say "the number of people who actually understand what it entails is tiny," full stop. If you just watched the nets, you'd have no frackin idea. And people don't realize the convention is Aug 25-28. There's like 5 months, then the convention, then two months, then the election. We would have to spend more than 2/3 of the time between now and the general eating each other.

When MY says all this probably won't make a huge difference, am I right to assume he means that the average voter is not likely ever to become much better-informed about this? That it will be donors, or superdelegates, who end it?

Posted by Ted | March 29, 2008 7:14 AM

And then you read sites like MyDD, and enter bizarro world.

Posted by David | March 29, 2008 7:25 AM

MyDD is an echo chamber. It is run by Clinton supporters and it had an anti-Obama lean very early on, but one thing to note is that it's very small site when compared to Daily Kos, which has a similar level of bias for Obama. Of course, it's a bit easier to not sound ridiculous when you're rooting for the winning side, so that's why MyDD seems like bizarro world.

Posted by Meng Bomin | March 29, 2008 8:28 AM

"Wild crazy incendiary" claims? Sounds a bit hysterical.

Not a credible article. A quick check of the author's blog shows he's been pimping Obama since last year. By an Obama cultist for Obama cultists. This is the kind of deceptive blogging I'd expect from Josh Marshall. I thought MY had maybe gotten past it.

Bottom line, Obama is going to have to win a few primaries down the stretch ... if he can.

Posted by Undecided | March 29, 2008 8:48 AM

Clinton supporters are increasingly reminding me of 2004 Bush supporters; rejecting criticism of Dear Leader whenever it comes from a source that they deem tainted. Which, in turn, corresponds to any source that criticizes Dear Leader.

Posted by Marc | March 29, 2008 8:53 AM

A guest on "Talk of the nation" on Tuesday actually made the case that the only reason people were calling for HRC to get out is because she's a "woman, who is expected to sacrifice her self-interests for others." I screamed into the radio. The determination for victimhood and denial of the situation was stunning. Mat Bai was also on and did a pretty good job of pushing back, except no one pointed out that Huckabee was repeatedly asked to get out when he began damaging the party with wins despite an inability to win (bar lightening striking), and no one pointed to the numbers of AAs elected guvs or senators compared to women. But, I'm sure this woman speaks to the voices of many others who inaccurately believe we only want her to stop damaging the party because she's a woman -- and when Clinton says the "big boys" in the party are trying to push out, she deliberately feeds the paranoia she knows is inaccurate.

Posted by evie | March 29, 2008 9:00 AM

This thing is still close, too close for comfort...I say this as an Obama supporter...But I believe that Obama will narrow Clinton's margin in PA, and win NC...If those things happen, Clinton should face the music and withdraw...

Posted by John McCarthy | March 29, 2008 9:02 AM

This thing is still close, too close for comfort...I say this as an Obama supporter...But I believe that Obama will narrow Clinton's margin in PA, and win NC...If those things happen, Clinton should face the music and withdraw...

Posted by John McCarthy | March 29, 2008 9:02 AM

This thing is still close, too close for comfort...I say this as an Obama supporter...But I believe that Obama will narrow Clinton's margin in PA, and win NC...If those things happen, Clinton should face the music and withdraw...

Posted by John McCarthy | March 29, 2008 9:03 AM

This thing is still close, too close for comfort...I say this as an Obama supporter...But I believe that Obama will narrow Clinton's margin in PA, and win NC...If those things happen, Clinton should face the music and withdraw...

Posted by John McCarthy | March 29, 2008 9:03 AM

So we have Matt and his one anecdote, and then we have the PA polls, where Obama is tanking.

I'll tell you what's really going on: the Democratic elite doesn't want the PA primary to take place, because if it does - and, if trends continue as they are now, Hillary will trounce Obama - they'll have a large problem on their hands.

Obama is ahead by a trivial amount, and his lead in the popular vote is a haze, becase most of it derives from the caucuses. What I see here is raw fear - the fear of what the PA results will imply about the Democratic side of the electorate.

Posted by James Robertson | March 29, 2008 9:05 AM

Obama supporters remind me of 2002 Neocons pushing bogus information they got from "Curveball".

Eli Sanders is a shrill Obama partisan. No sale on the whining and hysterics.

Win Indiana and North Carolina to close this thing down.

Posted by Undecided | March 29, 2008 9:05 AM

Very true evie. Clinton needs her supporters to project sexism onto her critics and detractors to cover up her own managerial incompetence and political tin ear.

Posted by Reality Man | March 29, 2008 9:09 AM

Maybe Hilary's planning on destroying the Democrats and then joining with Lieberman to form the domestic centrist, foreign policy super hawk party. That'll teach the dirty hippies.

Posted by vanya | March 29, 2008 9:11 AM

James Robertson, the polls I've seen have Clinton's lead shrinking. She was up around 23% points a couple of weeks ago and now her lead is down to 10% points in some polls with the voting still a few weeks away. Meanwhile, Obama is likely to win North Carolina, Oregon and probably Indiana, altogether which make up a pretty decent number of delegates.

Posted by Reality Man | March 29, 2008 9:17 AM

Undecided,

When a candidate is behind they have to win and in Hillary's case win big. Obama is ahead and will maintain a lead simply by staying close in the upcoming primaries.

Hillary has to win Pennsylvania by 15, and then win North Carolina and Indiana. That is not gonna' happen.

As for "whining and hysterics" that is what you are doing. We are simply stating facts.

Posted by bjd | March 29, 2008 9:22 AM

If Hilary isn't going to win those states then why all the pressure to withdraw?

Posted by Rob | March 29, 2008 9:30 AM

Your opinion on what's going to happen is not a "fact". Pardon me if I wait to see what the voters in those states say instead of taking an Obama supporter's word for it. I want to see the impact of Wright.

I don't think HRC has to win NC but she does need to win Pennsylvania (relatively large) and Indiana to sustain her argument for staying in the race.

Posted by Undecided | March 29, 2008 9:33 AM

Undecided,

The numbers are facts, not opinion. Hillary has to win at least 60% of the remaining delegates. That is not going to happen in NC, Indiana, Montana, South Dakota.
You can run the numbers for yourself here.

Posted by bjd | March 29, 2008 9:48 AM

Still, Hillary has a very strong base of support, and those supporters are not likely to accept her simply acquiescing and fading out without some sort of event which signals a fair cause for transitioning out.

The question isn't just whether or not Obama gets the nomination -- it's how, and how those who support Hillary feel about how it goes down.

Not the small nut squad who vow to either not vote or vote 3rd party or vote McCain if Obama gets the nomination, but those who want to vote Democratic but also don't want to feel their candidate withdrew for any non-obvious reasons.

Keep remembering: this isn't just about HRC and her choices. It's about her very large and very strong base of supporters.

Posted by El Cid | March 29, 2008 9:49 AM

On Polls:

Real Clear Politics

Looks to me like Hillary is up 10 in the outlier poll, and more in all the rest (in PA). I'll go back to my earlier assertion: The elite does not want a contested PA primary, because they can see the racial divide that will show. They already see lots of anecdotal "if my guy doesn't win, I'm not voting", too.

If Obama is the inevitable candidate, then why is there so much fear?

Posted by James Robertson | March 29, 2008 10:00 AM

Edwards had a strong,ideological base of supporters.

We moved on.

Hillary's case has no ideological underpinnings, so her camp will dissolve quickly.

Posted by TTR | March 29, 2008 10:03 AM

Maybe the reason that Senator Clinton isn't bowing out is that the Clinton camp knows something about Senator Obama that hasn't come out yet or at least hasn't been covered by the mainstream media that hates the Clintons and is in the tank for Obama. Could that something be strong evidence, not mere speculation by nutcases like Michael Savage, that he is a Muslim in wolfs' clothing masquerading as a Christian in sheeps' clothing?

"Is Barack Obama a Muslim wolf in Christian wool?
By Reuven Koret March 27, 2008

Bookmark to del.icio.usDigg!Digg This Story

The glib handling of criticism of his relationship with the anti-American ("God Damn America!") and anti-Israel ("a dirty word for Negroes") Reverend James Wright may have bought him a little time. But the legacy of dissimulation about his long-concealed identity is about to come crashing down around the ears of Barack Hussein Obama, courtesy of the assembled testimony of his family, friends, classmates and teachers.

The accumulated research indicates that Obama was in his childhood a devout Muslim, the son of a devout Muslim, the step-son of a devout Muslim and the grandson and namesake ("Hussein") of a devout Muslim. He was registered in school as a Muslim and demonstrated his ability to chant praise to Allah in impressive Arab-accented tones even as an adult. Just as he has not disavowed his "uncle" Jeremiah, neither has he disavowed his Muslim faith that he was born into, raised with, celebrated and never abandoned. He just covered it over with a thin veneer of his own self-styled "Christianity."

Although as an adult he would register as a Christian, and occasionally attend a Christian Church (but apparently not often enough to listen to the preaching of his pastor, or so he would claim) this was a necessary step for a man who from earliest boyhood has nurtured the precocious ambition to be President of the United States.

He was entered into the Roman Catholic, Franciscus Assisi Primary School, in Jakarta, Indonesia, on January 1, 1968, registered under the name Barry Soetoro, an Indonesian citizen whose religion was listed as Islam. Catholic schools accept non-Catholics worldwide. Non-Catholic students are typically excused from religious instruction and ceremony.

In kindergarten, Senator Obama wrote an essay titled 'I Want to Become President.'"Iis Darmawan, 63, Senator Obama's kindergarten teacher, remembers him as an exceptionally tall and curly haired child who quickly picked up the local language and had sharp math skills. He wrote an essay titled, 'I Want To Become President,' the teacher said." [AP, 1/25/07]

Three years later, in 1971, Obama enrolled in the Besuki Primary School, a government school, as Barry Soetoro, Muslim. In third grade, Senator Obama wrote an essay titled 'I Want To Be a President.' His third grade teacher: Fermina Katarina Sinaga "asked her class to write an essay titled 'My dream: What I want to be in the future.' Senator Obama wrote 'I want to be a President,' she said." [The Los Angeles Times, 3/15/07]

All Indonesian students are required to study religion at school and a young Barry Soetoro, being a Muslim, would have been required to study Islam daily in school.

He would have been taught to read and write Arabic, to recite his prayers properly, to read and recite from the Quran and to study the laws of Islam.

In his autobiography, "Dreams From My Father," Obama mentions studying the Koran and describes the public school as "a Muslim school."

"In the Muslim school, the teacher wrote to tell mother I made faces during Koranic studies."

According to Tine Hahiyary, one of Obama's teachers and the principal from 1971 through 1989, Barry actively took part in the Islamic religious lessons during his time at the school. "I remembered that he had studied "mengaji" (recitation of the Quran)" Tine said.

The author of the Laotze blog writes from Jakarta: "The actual usage of the word 'mengaji' in Indonesian and Malaysian societies means the study of learning to recite the Quran in the Arabic language rather than the native tongue. "Mengagi" is a word and a term that is accorded the highest value and status in the mindset of fundamentalist societies here in Southeast Asia. To put it quite simply, 'mengaji classes' are not something that a non practicing or so-called moderate Muslim family would ever send their child to. To put this in a Christian context, this is something above and beyond simply enrolling your child in Sunday school classes."

"The fact that Obama had attended mengaji classes is well known in Indonesia and has left many there wondering just when Obama is going to come out of the closet."

"As I've stated before, the evidence seems to quite clearly show that both Ann Dunham and her husband Lolo Soetoro Mangunharjo were in fact devout Muslims themselves and they raised their son as such."

The Obama Campaign told the LA Times he wasn't a "practicing Muslim." (3/14/2007). But his official website says: "Obama Has Never Been A Muslim, And Is a Committed Christian" (11/12/2007)

That's not what his friends and classmates have said. Classmate Rony Amiris describes young Barry as enjoying playing football and marbles and of being a very devout Muslim. Amir said, "Barry was previously quite religious in Islam. We previously often asked him to the prayer room close to the house. If he was wearing a sarong, he looked funny," said Rony.

Amiris, now the manager of Bank Mandiri, Jakarta, recently said, "Barry was previously quite religious in Islam. His birth father, Barack Hussein Obama was a Muslim economist from Kenya. Before marrying Ann Dunham, Hussein Obama was married to a woman from Kenya who had seven children. All the relatives of Barry's father were very devout Muslims"

Emirsyah Satar, CEO of Garuda Indonesia, was quoted as saying, "He (Obama) was often in the prayer room wearing a 'sarong', at that time."

"He was quite religious in Islam but only after marrying Michelle, he changed his religion."
So Obama, according to his classmates and friends was a Muslim until the confluence of love and ambitious, caused him to adopt the cloak of Christianity: to marry Michelle and to run for President of the United States.

In "Dreams," Obama sheds light on his formative years and the political views of his mother, an anthropologist and Islamophile who hated America and subsequently "went native." (It was her mother -- Barry's "other" grandmother who cared for him in his druggie teenage years -- that he would describe as a "typical white person" who was, he said scoldingly, fearful of black men and prone to making stereotypical racial remarks.)

Obama Senior also had three sons by another woman who are all Muslim. Although Obama claims Senior was an atheist, Senior was buried as a Muslim.

Barack Obama's brother Roy opted for Islam over Christianity, as the Senator recounted in his book when describing his 1992 wedding. "The person who made me proudest of all," Obama wrote, "was Roy. Actually, now we call him Abongo, his Luo name, for two years ago he decided to reassert his African heritage. He converted to Islam, and has sworn off pork and tobacco and alcohol."Abongo "argues that the black man must "liberate himself from the poisoning influences of European culture." He urged his younger brother to embrace his African heritage.

In Kenya while he was a Senator, Obama stumped for his cousin, opposition leader Raila Odinga, the son of Senior's sister, a direct first cousin and nephew of Obama's father.
On August 29, 2007, Raila Odinga and Shiekh Abdullah Abdi, chairman of the National Muslim Leaders Forum of Kenya signed a Memorandum of Understanding in which it pledges the support of Kenyan Moslems for Raila's election. In return, as President of Kenya, Raila agrees ... within 6 months re-write the Constitution of Kenya to recognize Shariah as the only true law sanctioned by the Holy Quran for Muslim declared regions [and] within one year to facilitate the establishment of a Shariah court in every Kenyan divisional headquarters -- everywhere in Kenya, not just in "Muslim declared regions" -- and to popularize Islam, the only true religion ... by ordering every primary school in Kenya in the regions to conduct daily Madrassa classes.

In an interview with the New York Times, published on April 30th, Maya Soetoro-Ng, Obama's younger half sister, told the Times, "My whole family was Muslim, and most of the people I knew were Muslim."

Obama describes his new found "Christian" faith as: (1) Suspicious of dogma (2) Without any monopoly on the truth (3) Nontransferable to others (4) Infused with a big healthy dose of doubt, and (5) Indulgent of and compatible with all other religions.

On February 27th, speaking to Kristof of The New York Times, Barack Hussein Obama said the Muslim call to prayer is "one of the prettiest sounds on Earth at sunset."

In an interview with Nicholas Kristof, published in The New York Times, Obama recited the Muslim call to prayer, the Adhan, "with a first-class [Arabic] accent."
The opening lines of the Adhan (Azaan) is the Shahada:

"Allah is Supreme! Allah is Supreme!
Allah is Supreme! Allah is Supreme!
I witness that there is no god but Allah
I witness that there is no god but Allah
I witness that Muhammad is his prophet? "

According to Islamic scholars, reciting the Shahada, the Muslim declaration of faith, makes one a Muslim. This simple yet profound statement expresses a Muslim's complete acceptance of, and total commitment to, the message of Islam. Obama chanted it with pride and finesse.

An American Expat in Southeast Asia blog, written by an American who has lived in Indonesia for 20 years and has met with both the Taliban and al-Qaeda, contains the following:

"Barack Hussein Obama might have convinced some Americans that he is no longer a Muslim, but so far he has not convinced many in the world's most populous Muslim country who still see him as a Muslim and a crusader for Islam and world peace."

"Barack Hussein Obama's race, his staunch opposition to the war in Iraq, his sympathy to Islam and Muslims worldwide and his Muslim heritage receive the Indonesian media coverage. There is no mention of his apostasy."

"A good example of how some of the Indonesian media is reporting on Obama's religion can be found in the following."

"What I found interesting in the article was the use of the word 'mengaku' when refering to Obama's conversion from Islam to Christianity. The word 'mengaku' in Indonesian means "claimed" and as such leaves the insinuation to the native Indonesian reader being that Obama might actually still be a Muslim.

But this is how Indonesians see Obama, they don't see him as an apostate at all, they see him as a crusader for the cause of Islam."

Obama wants it both ways, has always wanted it both ways. Black and white, Indonesian and American, Muslim and Christian. He loves playing one off the other, using one to hide the other even as the traces of the truth may be assembled to reveal the whole cloth of deception and self-promotion he has been weaving so skillfully since his childhood. No wonder he is a man of change. He IS a changeling, a veritable chameleon, adapting and amending his life story to fit the circumstances.

The charm may have worked once. It still works on some. It won't work forever in the age of the Internet. The fog of ambiguity and dissimulation is dissipated by the harsh, unforgiving and scrutiny of the blogosphere and its unlimited access to historical facts and time-stamped testimony.

Many have been puzzled why Obama could claim not to be familiar with Wright's rants. It turns out the Trinity Church, like many African-American churches, happily accepts believing Muslims within its congregation. And evidently many Muslims have no problems surrounding themselves with an anti-American, anti-Israel preacher who week in and week out wins the amens of his adoring congregation.

On Feb 15/08, Usama K. Dakdok, President of The Straight Way of Grace Ministry called Obama's Church and reported the following conversation: " I then asked the person who answered what I needed to do to join. She told me that I needed to attend two Sunday School classes in a row and then I would walk the aisle. I replied, "That sounds easy. One last question please. If I am Muslim and I believe in the Prophet Mohammed, peace be unto him and I also believe in Jesus, peace be unto him, do I have to give up my Islamic faith to be a member in your church? She answered: "No, we have many Muslim members in our church." "

Posted by SLC | March 29, 2008 10:03 AM

PSSST -- SLC: When I was going to church in my Baptist and Methodist youth, they often welcomed congregants of all faith, hoping to share the light etc. of Jesus with all good people.

Posted by El Cid | March 29, 2008 10:05 AM

It's about her very large and very strong base of supporters.

Which is why she needs to gracefully bow out. Continuing to run is encouraging supporters to believe in an empty promise and that leads to greater disappointment.

Posted by bjd | March 29, 2008 10:05 AM

SLC: Are you seriously arguing that because Indonesian Muslims (who, after all, see their religion as legitimate and not the Satanic scum of the Earth as you see it) would like to hope that someday Barack Obama could come 'back' to their faith, that this is proof he's a secret Moooozlim Manchurian candidate who'll get in the White House and rebuild it as the Dome of the Rock?

Have you lost your mind? Is this the same SLC who actually follows the right wing Israeli press?

Posted by El Cid | March 29, 2008 10:12 AM

I love how the most shrill, bitter pro-Hillary (or is it anti-Obama?) commenters here always call themselves "Undecided" or "Still Undecided." Great job impersonating the voice of careful deliberation, folks.

Posted by Marc | March 29, 2008 10:14 AM

Re El Cid

Mr. El Cid responds to the Muslims worshiping at Senator Obamas' church while conveniently ignoring the testimony of former friends of Senator Obama in Indonesia. This stuff is no secret and is well known to the Rethuglican smear machine. I hope that when it finally reaches the mainstream media before the election and Senator Obama is buried in a McCain landslide, Mr. El Cid remembers this warning shot and that I told him so.

Posted by SLC | March 29, 2008 10:17 AM

Hillary Clinton Should Tsay in the Race (or Why I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Clinton-Bomb)

Even as he begins to dig into real policy issues and enunciate well thought out solutions, the core of Obama’s campaign remains the inspirational call for change. Against McCain, that call becomes somewhat muted insofar as that change messaging is really aimed at voters they both have some appeal towards. However, the change quality to Obama’s campaign is stark against the backdrop of the Clinton camp’s increasingly vindictive efforts. Watching Clinton and her folks do what they’re doing makes Obama an even more appealing choice, and his ability to maneuver through the Wright scandal relatively unscathed is a testament to the veracity of that appeal. Obama weathers these storms precisely because he is different, and when you watch Hilary Clinton as he performs these deft feats you can’t help but have that difference reinforced. The more this occurs, the stronger I believe Obama is in the general election, full stop.

Full text at: http://politicsofscrabble.org/?p=49

Posted by Scott Payne | March 29, 2008 10:20 AM

SLC,

Simply put, you are full of shit.

Posted by bjd | March 29, 2008 10:20 AM

According to Islamic scholars, reciting the Shahada, the Muslim declaration of faith, makes one a Muslim.

Oh dear. You just typed it out. That makes you every bit as much of a Muslim as Obama.

Posted by Matt Weiner | March 29, 2008 10:22 AM

Re bjd

When President McCain replaces John Paul Stevens with a Sam Alito clone, Mr. bjd won't be making snide remarks. Always remember, he who laughs last, laughs the longest.

Posted by SLC | March 29, 2008 10:28 AM

Reading SLC is like reading the memoirs of Albert Speer, but without the self-knowledge and regret that even Speer occasionally expressed.

Posted by TMD | March 29, 2008 10:29 AM

Re "After all, most Democratic activists, whether or not they like Hillary Clinton, don't want to see the party burned down for her sake. "
-------------
Actually, when I get liquored up, I kinda like the idea of a crazy, destructive woman being President and having command of our nuclear weapons.

But then I liked Medea and MacBeth.

The Greeks hit the nail on the fucking head.
Smooth and safe is boring -- so we feel an
irrational compulsion to stir things up.

That's why Eliot Spitzer developed a taste for
$5000/night whores. But I knew he was doomed
when he started hanging around Southern NASCAR races:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/14/nyregion/14spitzer.html?ex=1344744000&en=c8c5527ee1fefe2d&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

The southern white trash life has its appeal --since the days of Charles I it's had an aristocratic distain for bourgeois conformity.

That's why Obama's past drug use won't hurt him. The Democratic rabble love the idea that they finally have a candidate who's grown a pair.

Posted by Don Williams | March 29, 2008 10:34 AM

The echo chamber of the desired self-fulfllling prophesy is quite amazing. To Matt Hillary is flailing, to the possible detriment of the Democratic Party. To the Hillary partisan she is attempting to win despite an absurd set of rules and disregarded rules and presenting very legitimate issues that Matt, Olbermann and a good deal of an "in the tank" press corps who have hated her and her husband back almost 20 years refuse to credit. To an objective observer she has a small chance and is refusing to throw in the towel as long as she has a small chance. (btw....come the general election should Barack be down 10 points with a few weeks to go and the press gives him no chance of winning, would you want him to just give up, for the sake of the country? Me neither.)

Hillary is a legitimate candidate. Let it play out. And if Barack gets the nomination and can't get the Hillary voters, that is a big problem for the democratic party and Barack's fault as a candidate

Posted by Barry | March 29, 2008 10:36 AM

Obama is not only both Christian and Muslim, he is also an atheist, a triple-agent who plans to secretly take over the world by simultaneously appealing to all three groups. Smart dude.

Posted by whodathunk | March 29, 2008 10:36 AM

Re TMD

Mr. TMD is a poopyhead.

Posted by SLC | March 29, 2008 10:36 AM

Re southern white trash life having an appeal, just ask Wild Bill Clinton.

That's why he's irritable lately -- this two year Presidential campaign got old for him months ago.

He CAN'T wait till it's over so he can go back to the sporting life. Without Fox News poking him in the butt with a TV camera.

Posted by Don Williams | March 29, 2008 10:38 AM

Yeah. I've had it. The "secret Muslim" nonsense is the last straw. SLC deserves to be troll-rated for that.

Look, slime merchants can make up slime about us all. Whether we're black or white, born in Indonesia or Indianapolis. At some point, if you have an ounce of moral fiber, you stop worrying about what the slime merchants are gonna say, and you start standing shoulder to shoulder against them.

Bonhoeffer: “First they came for the Communists, but I was not a Communist so I did not speak out. Then they came for the Socialists and the Trade Unionists, but I was neither, so I did not speak out. Then they came for the Jews, but I was not a Jew so I did not speak out. And when they came for me, there was no one left to speak out for me.”

Take a moment. Think about it.

Posted by Ted | March 29, 2008 10:43 AM

As a so-called pledged delegate Ms. Putnam-Kaminsky is not bound to one candidate, but should instead use her judgment to choose the candidate who would be best for the party in November.

--HRC

Posted by Deborah | March 29, 2008 10:45 AM

To the Hillary partisan she is attempting to win despite an absurd set of rules and disregarded rules and presenting very legitimate issues

Hillary agreed to and endorsed the rules, to dismiss them and call them absurd when you find yourself losing is a child's game.

What rules do you think were disregarded?

Posted by bjd | March 29, 2008 10:46 AM

El Cid

SLC belongs to a sect which cuts off the tip of a man's penis as a way of weeding out the devout from the ..er..dilettantes and idly curious. (Although they still haven't figured out a way to discourage Madonna --heh heh).

From his posts, I doubt SLC is very receptive to the idea of TWO-WAY religious tolerance.

Posted by Don Williams | March 29, 2008 10:52 AM

James Robertson:

If Obama is the inevitable candidate, then why is there so much fear?

Here's the argument: because the inevitable candidate won't inevitably beat McCain, and to the extent that the Clinton campaign is spending tons of energy attacking Obama, the longer the Dem nomination fight goes on, the likelier it is that the Dem nominee will lose. Which the Party bigwigs don't want.

My guess is that the Clinton camp has convinced themselves that Obama cannot win in any case, so they don't worry about this. But other people -- I'd say most Dems, and certainly all the polls -- disagree with them.

I'd bet, incidentally, that the silly rumors about Gore riding his white horse to the rescue of an irreconcilably split Convention have originated with Party insiders. Clinton sees the 2-person contest as zero-sum -- what hurts Obama helps her. But if a rumor starts going around about Gore, then it's negative-sum -- if she undermines Obama as much as she wants, the Party will just pick Gore and she'll still lose.

I don't think that'll happen, but if the Party has decided that they want Clinton to drop out, it would make sense for them to try to persuade her that the choice at this point is Obama or Gore, not Obama or Clinton -- and that if she makes the Party choose Gore at a deadlocked Convention, her name in the Senate will be mud for the rest of her career.

Posted by Pesto | March 29, 2008 10:52 AM

As for the chorus saying "let it play out? what are you afraid of?"

Fine, fine. Don't worry. PA is definitely on. NC and IN are definitely on. Hillary's not dropping out. Matt didn't say she would, and no one seriously expects her to. So please, chill, and find something more interesting to say.

What's happening is that Obama supporters are starting a conversation about the consequences that would be involved *if* this thing went to the convention. Why are we doing that? Not because we want or expect her to drop out before PA. But so that Hillary supporters will begin to think just a bit about math, and about the date of the convention (which by the way is Aug 25th-28th). We don't expect them to pack it in right now; we know that's not how politics works. We do hope that by May, if things play out the way the polls suggest, people will begin to realize that this exercise isn't helping the party.

Posted by Ted | March 29, 2008 10:56 AM

If Hilary isn't going to win those states then why all the pressure to withdraw?

So that we have a nominee before August? There's no sign Clinton will quit even if she does lose North Carolina, or even if she does lose both North Carolina and Indiana.

And does anyone genuinely think that Obama will lose a state where 30% of the electorate will be African American? Obama has yet to lose a state where the demographics favor him, and I don't see any reason to think North Carolina will be any different, one individual poll notwithstanding.

Posted by John | March 29, 2008 10:59 AM

Re El Cid

The point of the article I posted is that Senator Obama never left the Muslim faith so there is nothing to come back to. His participation with the Christian church, formerly pastored by the Reverend Wright is phony.

Re Ted

There is enough smoke in the article I posted to make a legitimate case that the allegations are true. Considering that the Swift Boaters were able to make a case against Senator Kerry on far slimmer evidence, at least sufficient to defeat him, it is evident that the Democratic party would be taking a very dubious gamble in nominating Senator Obama, one likely to backfire.

I am not saying that Senator Clinton should be nominated as she would probably not win either. The best scenario would be a deadlocked convention which would turn to former Vice-President Al Gore who can win. The Obamabots and Clintonists should get over their fascination with their chosen candidate and concentrate on winning in November. That means nominating the candidate best situated to win, namely Al Gore. In order to achieve this end, it is absolutely crucial that Senator Clinton stay in the race.

Posted by SLC | March 29, 2008 11:00 AM

If Hilary isn't going to win those states then why all the pressure to withdraw?

So she can stop increasing Obama's negatives with really shitty attacks, and so the party can unite against the guy we have to beat in November?

Posted by justinb | March 29, 2008 11:03 AM

SLC, you're out of your mind. I mean, more so than usual. Usually I can just count on you to gleefully hope some Arabs or Muslims in the Middle East get shot or bombed or some such.

Even the paranoid raving rant you just quoted doesn't argue that there's any evidence whatsoever that Obama's still a "Muslim" in even the slightest meaningful sense of the term. Unless you're suddenly taken with the Nazi view of Judaism that it's somehow like a genetic virus which once encountered affects you and all your spawn.

I once learned a bit of Arabic and pronounce it very well according to native speakers. I once repeated the "Allahu akbar wa raheem" to their approval.

OMG!! Em I now sekrit moozlim???? ZOMG!!!

Posted by El Cid | March 29, 2008 11:07 AM

Re SLC's comment "The best scenario would be a deadlocked convention which would turn to former Vice-President Al Gore who can win."
-----------
Al Gore? Al Gore?

Wasn't he the guy we ran in 2000?

Against the Republican candidate who was an alcoholic, a failed businessman, too stupid to understand simple arithmetic, and a rich brat who had hid out in Texas during the Vietnam War?

So how did that work out?

Posted by Don Williams | March 29, 2008 11:09 AM

i think mebbe some right wing nut tank will link new nominee Al Gore's crazy global warming talk as a muslim conspiracy so therefore we cain't have him for nominee no more we must get zell miller.

Posted by El Cid | March 29, 2008 11:10 AM

Reuven Kouret also broke a shocking story of how the UN assisted Hezbollah in kidnapping Israeli soldiers
here. He also discovered that the Qana Massacre was staged by Lebanon.

I think he has a lot of credibility and would listen to him very carefully. We all know that Muslims are such inscrutable agents don't we.

Posted by Barbar | March 29, 2008 11:16 AM

PS Re the 2000 Republican Candidate, I forgot to add "and an obvious whore for the wealthy men who had rescued him from bankruptcy".

Yeah, no way you could expect Al Gore to prevail against a Superman like that.

Posted by Don Williams | March 29, 2008 11:19 AM

El Cid: A correction to my post above.

While SLC thinks Jews should be circumscised, he now thinks Democrats should cut off our entire dicks and run Al Gore again.

Posted by Don Williams | March 29, 2008 11:23 AM

HELL of a religious ritual, SLC. Couldn't we Democrats just drink some Kool Aid or something?

Posted by Don Williams | March 29, 2008 11:26 AM

The only way Democrats can win this year given that the leading nominee is a secret Indoneso-Muslim radical Black Nationalist terrorist is to override all the primaries and caucuses and put forth none other than Newt Gingrich as our nominee, as only He can stand up to the Republicans' inevitable mud-slinging of the Democrats as the party of pro-terror big government socialist secret Muslimism.

Posted by El Cid | March 29, 2008 11:32 AM

Re Don Williams

1. Mr. Williams conveniently forgets that Mr. Gore lost the 2000 race because fucktards like him in New Hampshire and Florida voted for Ralph Nader. Hopefully, those fucktards have now sobered up and will fly right in this election.

2. Mr. Williams also forgets that the Muslims who he so loves, including his hero Osama bin Laden, also have received the operation to which he refers.

Re El Cid

1. The right wing think tanks will attack any nominee who the Democrats put forward, including Senator Obama and Senator Clinton. Any attack they level against Al Gore will pale in comparison to those they would launch against the other two.

2. There is enough smoke indicated in the Koret article to convince fence sitters that Senator is now a Muslim and always was a Muslim and has never left the Muslim faith. Obviously, Mr. El Cid has no interest in winning the election and would rather lose with Senator Obama then win with Al Gore.

Re Barbar

Mr. Barbar might not think Mr. Koret is very credible but the Rethuglican smear machine will not be quoting him. They will merely repeat what he states in the article.

Posted by SLC | March 29, 2008 11:34 AM

Right-wing morons think that Hillary Clinton murdered Vince Foster, SLC. The only difference between that and this Obama nonsense is that you'd like to be counted in with the right-wing morons when it comes to Obama.

Posted by Barbar | March 29, 2008 11:37 AM

How is Al Gore in any way protected from the right wing smear machine?

For example, I haven't looked, but in his worldwide travels & meetings about global warming, there's probably plenty of material for the kind of right wing slime you're talking about to indicate that this one time he was at a conference and some dictator / terrorist / gangster shook his hand or something, or somebody in a crowd held up a flag or banner or something and yet AlGore just sat there lookin' at it, blah blah blah blah blah.

Further, none of that has been introduced ("vetted") and so it would all be scoured and dumped at once in the tiny time between convention & election, so the same idiotic voters who stumble to the booth and say "I ain't sure 'bout that Muslim Obama" are exactly as likely to say "I ain't sure about that socialist Al Gore shakin' hands wif XXXXX."

If the way of selecting the Democratic candidate is to imagine that there's some magical candidate out there who couldn't get slimed by the right wing nut jobs, well, you need a new way.

Posted by El Cid | March 29, 2008 11:44 AM

Re Barbar

"Right-wing morons think that Hillary Clinton murdered Vince Foster, SLC"

And that's one of the reasons why Senator Clinton can't win either.

Posted by SLC | March 29, 2008 11:44 AM

Re ""Right-wing morons think that Hillary Clinton murdered Vince Foster, SLC"
-------------
Actually, they think she drilled a hole in Vince's skull and sucked out his brains. In order to maintain her youthful appearance and nymphomaniac sex drive.

Posted by Don Williams | March 29, 2008 11:56 AM

I myself , on the other hand, agree with SLC's skeptical attitude and argue that there's no proof that she sucked out the entire brain. I think she left the frontal lobes behind and that's the important part.

Posted by Don Williams | March 29, 2008 12:00 PM

Re Don Williams

Incidently, I'm willing to bet that Senator Obama has also received the operation to which Mr. Williams refers.

Posted by SLC | March 29, 2008 12:08 PM

Re SLC's comment "Mr. Williams also forgets that the Muslims ... also have received the operation to which he refers."
-----------------
Gee.

So there's no way we Gentiles can distinguish between SLC and a MUSLIM?

Other than one shlong being 6 inches and the other ..er.. CONSIDERABLY less?

Posted by Don Williams | March 29, 2008 12:16 PM

Matt should read Taylor Marsh. He might even learn something from it, but my expectations for Matt's ability to learn are extremely low.

Posted by James Robertson | March 29, 2008 12:22 PM

Re Don Williams

There's a researcher in Canada who claims to have shown that dick size is inversely proportional to intelligence. If Mr. Williams' hypothesis is correct, maybe that explains why 19 Jews have won Nobel Prizes in physics.

Posted by SLC | March 29, 2008 12:30 PM

I cannot believe someone just cited Taylor Marsh as credible. Good god that blog is ridiculous.

And yeah, she should drop out not because she can win, because it's pretty much impossible, but because she can't stop saying stupid things like "McCain and I have passed the C-i-C test, that other guy hasn't."

Actually, I kind of hope the media stops telling her to drop out, because then she gets to play the victim card and her more robotic supporters just get pissed off.

Posted by 55 | March 29, 2008 12:31 PM

So we have Matt and his one anecdote, and then we have the PA polls, where Obama is tanking.

If this is tanking, I'll take some more of it, please.

Posted by EarBucket | March 29, 2008 12:39 PM

If Hilary isn't going to win those states then why all the pressure to withdraw?

So that we have a nominee before August? There's no sign Clinton will quit even if she does lose North Carolina, or even if she does lose both North Carolina and Indiana.

And does anyone genuinely think that Obama will lose a state where 30% of the electorate will be African American? Obama has yet to lose a state where the demographics favor him, and I don't see any reason to think North Carolina will be any different, one individual poll notwithstanding.

Also, SLC is despicable.

Posted by John | March 29, 2008 1:22 PM

Don, you're doing a great job of reminding us that anti-semitism is still a real problem. Less gutter talk would be appreciated all around.

Posted by Ted | March 29, 2008 1:34 PM

Re Ted

Mr. Williams is a pussycat compared to a number of Holocaust deniers who showed up on the Buchanan book thread. These included a couple of shitheads going under the names RB and Erich Manstein.

Posted by SLC | March 29, 2008 1:57 PM

from "The Clinton Bet" at swimming freestyle:

" If Obama were to lose to McCain in November, some large number of Democrats will hold Clinton at least partially accountable for the reasons noted above: the damage to Obama caused by the long, nasty nomination campaign and the lack of time to effectively campaign against McCain. Democrats will be big time pissed at Hillary Clinton and she'll lack any reasonable amount of support from Democratic voters in the 2012 primaries.

She really is, at this point, betting the farm. If not successful, which seems increasingly likely, she will ruin whatever opportunities she has going forward."

http://swimmingfreestyle.typepad.com

Posted by Jay McDonough | March 29, 2008 2:14 PM

I want Obama to win, but I want him to win by, you know, actually winning, getting more votes. All this hyperventilating by Matt and Josh Marshall and even those TNR guys doesn't reflect favorably on Obama at all; confidently going out to meet the voters unafraid that you'll come out on top is a lot more attractive and small-d democratic. I'm not sure what is lost by saying that we'll let the voters decide by June 3, and then telling the super delegates to decide shortly thereafter. Dean said something similar yesterday. Personally I'm enjoying the ride, I think a lot of people in the states that actually get a say now are enjoying it too, and I dearly wish Matt and his pals would stow the whining.

Posted by scottreads | March 29, 2008 2:35 PM

Don: "Actually, when I get liquored up, I kinda like the idea of a crazy, destructive woman being President and having command of our nuclear weapons."

Vote for Angelina Jolie! She used to be crazy and self-destructive, now she's the smartest, most honest and powerful woman around. She admits everything, denies nothing, accepts everything, and still comes out better grounded than Hillary ever will be.

I mean, compare Angelina to Hillary? Please.

SLC talks about Obama being a "secret Muslim". He doesn't want to talk about Hillary's connections with a secretive Christian political organization called "The Family". The only reason the Republicans haven't used that against her is because many of their top people are members as well and couldn't afford the scrutiny either.

Hillary's Nasty Pastorate
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20080331/ehrenreich

Money Quotes:

"As Sharlet reported in Harper's in 2003:

During the 1960s the Family forged relationships between the U.S. government and some of the most anti-Communist (and dictatorial) elements within Africa's postcolonial leadership. The Brazilian dictator General Costa e Silva, with Family support, was overseeing regular fellowship groups for Latin American leaders, while, in Indonesia, General Suharto (whose tally of several hundred thousand "Communists" killed marks him as one of the century's most murderous dictators) was presiding over a group of fifty Indonesian legislators. During the Reagan Administration the Family helped build friendships between the U.S. government and men such as Salvadoran general Carlos Eugenios Vides Casanova, convicted by a Florida jury of the torture of thousands, and Honduran general Gustavo Alvarez Martinez, himself an evangelical minister, who was linked to both the CIA and death squads before his own demise.

At the heart of The Family's American branch is a collection of powerful right-wing politicos, who include, or have included, Sam Brownback, Ed Meese, John Ashcroft, James Inhofe and Rick Santorum. They get to use The Family's spacious estate on the Potomac, The Cedars, which is maintained by young men in Family group homes and where meals are served by The Family's young women's group. And, at The Family's frequent prayer gatherings, they get powerful jolts of spiritual refreshment, tailored to the already powerful.

Clinton fell in with The Family in 1993, when she joined a Bible study group composed of wives of conservative leaders like Jack Kemp and James Baker. When she ascended to the Senate, she was promoted to what Sharlet calls the Family's "most elite cell," the weekly Senate Prayer Breakfast, which included, until his downfall, Virginia's notoriously racist Senator George Allen. This has not been a casual connection for Clinton. She has written of Doug Coe, The Family's publicity-averse leader, that he is "a unique presence in Washington: a genuinely loving spiritual mentor and guide to anyone, regardless of party or faith, who wants to deepen his or her relationship with God."

Furthermore, The Family takes credit for some of Clinton's rightward legislative tendencies, including her support for a law guaranteeing "religious freedom" in the workplace, such as for pharmacists who refuse to fill birth control prescriptions and police officers who refuse to guard abortion clinics."

Anybody wants to know why Clinton seems to be more "right" than "left" - well, now you know. She IS.

Posted by Richard Steven Hack | March 29, 2008 3:19 PM

Anybody who can support Clinton after the Bosnia fiasco just doesn't get it.

Getting Mrs. Clinton
http://online.wsj.com/article/declarations.html

Money Quote:

"I think we've reached a signal point in the campaign. This is the point where, with Hillary Clinton, either you get it or you don't. There's no dodging now. You either understand the problem with her candidacy, or you don't. You either understand who she is, or not. And if you don't, after 16 years of watching Clintonian dramas, you probably never will.

That's what the Bosnia story was about. Her fictions about dodging bullets on the tarmac -- and we have to hope they were lies, because if they weren't, if she thought what she was saying was true, we are in worse trouble than we thought -- either confirmed what you already knew (she lies as a matter of strategy, or, as William Safire said in 1996, by nature) or revealed in an unforgettable way (videotape! Smiling girl in pigtails offering flowers!) what you feared (that she lies more than is humanly usual, even politically usual).

But either you get it now or you never will. That's the importance of the Bosnia tape."

Posted by Richard Steven Hack | March 29, 2008 3:31 PM

I couldn't really care less about the bosnia thing, it's the type of shit politicians do all the time. I'm glad she's suffering over it, as nobody will ever convince me she wasn't the one pushing the Wright BS from the start.

Her association with the Fellowship is something people might want ot look into it. I'm all for religious freedom, but when your church states that the rich and powerful are rich and powerful because they are the chosen of god to rule over all others, that's Monarchy. God's doesn't choose leaders, humans do.

Posted by Soullite | March 29, 2008 3:54 PM

The most recent poll data shows a fairly dramatic shift back towards Obama (people have been saying this for days; before today, my position was that the "trend" was small enough that it might be random noise, but now it's large enough that it is almost certainly real).

Not only is Obama lengthening his national lead over Clinton, but he now does much better versus McCain than does Clinton (as he did prior to the Wright controversy).

None of that's conclusive, of course. But given that the only remaining rationale for the Clinton campaign seems to be the electability argument, it is quite telling.

Posted by LarryM | March 29, 2008 5:29 PM

Re Richard Steven Hack

Well, at least Senator Clinton has never held up a bank and shoved a gun in a bank tellers face. That puts her 1 up on Mr. Hack.

Posted by SLC | March 29, 2008 5:31 PM

Another point - I know I'm probably wasting my breath, the remaining Clinton fans have their talking points and they aren't backing down - I don't think you would be hearing any (or at least not many) calls for Clinton to withdraw if she wasn't waging such a destructive campaign. That doesn't mean she should refrain from all criticism, it just means she should stop hitting below the belt with Hannity type attacks (granted that those attacks have been backfiring lately).

Moreover, it's one thing to let things play out over the remaining primaries. You can, I guess, make the "let the people be heard" argument - I think it's flawed, but it isn't prima facie absurd - but staying int he race until the convention (assuming that the delegate math doesn't change dramatically in her favor, which is unlikely to say the least) ... anybody who belives that that wouldn't (at least) make a McCain victory MUCH more likely, and (possibly) destroy the party is too stupid to live.

Funniest delusional statement on that last point - I forget if it was in comments here, or on another blog - but a Clinton supporter making an analogy with Kennedy Carter in 1980. Yeah, sure, that's trhe model we want to adopt.

Posted by LarryM | March 29, 2008 5:37 PM

Re John

Wanting to win is not despicable. There is no substitute for victory. Winning isn't everything, it's the only thing.

Posted by SLC | March 29, 2008 5:59 PM

SLC is simultaneously arguing that (1) Obama is a secret Muslim agent and (2) whether or not Obama is really a secret Muslim agent, people are going to think so and this makes him unelectable.

If you believe #1 and you either have an IQ below 80 or you're a racist fucktard. Or both. That mind-bogglingly stupid anti-Semites show up on these message boards from time to time doesn't change that.

Posted by Barbar | March 29, 2008 7:52 PM

SLC: real Kahanist or fake Kahanist? Who knows?

Posted by pseudonymous in nc | March 29, 2008 8:52 PM

Re Ted's comment "Don, you're doing a great job of reminding us that anti-semitism is still a real problem. Less gutter talk would be appreciated all around."
-----------
1) Let see -- I teasing suggest that SLC has a short shlong and that's "Anti-Semitic"???

Oh , dear. Woe is me.

2) I can just see the plaque at the Holocaust Museum on the Mall:

" 70 AD: Roman General Titus conquers Jerusalem, kills thousands of Jews, destroys the Temple, and scatters remaining Jews to the four winds.

1300 AD: Inquisition in Spain expells all Jews , with large loss of life

1870 AD: Russian Tsar launches pogroms against Jews of Russia , killing thousands

1941 AD: Nazis launch Final Solution, killing 5 Millions Jews in Holocaust.

2008 AD: Evil Gentile Don Williams publicly suggests that tribesman SLC has a short shlong
Oy Vey Iz Mer! "

3) You're a self-parody , Ted. Go shit in your hat.

Posted by Don Williams | March 29, 2008 8:57 PM

Or is your outrage really an example of tiny penis --versus Jewish -- solidarity , Ted??

Posted by Don Williams | March 29, 2008 9:02 PM

After all, most Democratic activists, whether or not they like Hillary Clinton, don't want to see the party burned down for her sake.

Well shit, I may just have to reconsider my leanings, then. If HRC can "burn down" a feckless party that has NO real concerns, none, nada, zero, for ANYTHING other than its own access to power and the public trough -- hell, she might be the best thing to come along since FDR!

Posted by sglover | March 29, 2008 9:24 PM

I'm with you, sglover. Burn baby, burn!

Posted by anony-moose | March 30, 2008 12:22 AM

DEMO-INFERNO!

I realize that was not funny...

Posted by Tyler DiPietro | March 30, 2008 1:26 AM

Did the interviewer even bother to ask why Karina Putnam-Kaminsky hates freedom, or did he omit the question out of anti-Hillary bias?

Posted by aleks | March 30, 2008 9:55 AM

I don't think there's any conclusive proof yet that Obama's a Muslim, but his pastor obviously is. And did you know they're both black?

Posted by aleks | March 30, 2008 10:27 AM

For months now (including the present), we've been subjected to the rending of garments and gnashing of teeth that 'Clinton is talking of "stealing" delegates! Trying to get delegates to go against the votes of their constituents!!

And here we have Matt point approvingly when the OPPOSITE happens. And nobody above in the comments points this out.

Let's face it, Obama supporters are no more above stealing delegates or going against their constituencies if it means OBama wins, any more than Hillary's are. They are both pols, and this is what pols do.

It is also WITHIN THE RULES. Please everyone, stop playing concern trolls and let this thing play out as it will. Leave the dramatics and the smekking salts for the GOP

Posted by twit | March 30, 2008 11:20 AM

Oops! That's smelling salts, not smekking!

Meanwhile, although absurdly untrue, what is with all the absolute outrage about the 'Obama is a Moslem' thing? It really annoys me that apparently being a Moslem is the most despicable thing any one could do--going beyond eating puppies live! This does nothing exept tick off any sympathetic Moslems or open-minded people.

My response is, SO WHAT if he were a Moslem? Why shouldn't a Moslem be allowed to run for President? Don't we have freedom of religion?

Oh, and what is SLC smoking?

Posted by twit | March 30, 2008 11:28 AM

Re twit

The issue is not so much that Senator Obama might be a Muslim. The issue is the claim that he's hiding it, i.e. that he is the Manchurian andidate.

Posted by SLC | March 30, 2008 12:08 PM

SLC is biased. He neglects to mention that John McCain was brainwashed by the Vietnamese and is also a Manchurian candidate.

In 2010, the US will either be a communist state or under sharia law. Time to move to Canada!

Posted by Barbar | March 30, 2008 12:17 PM

Re Barbar

That issue relative to Senator McCain has been raised on this board before, not so much the Manchurian candidate hypothesis but the hypothesis that the Vietnamese Government has some negative information on the senator, based on his POW sojourn during the Vietnam war which they have been using to blackmail him ever since his release.

Posted by SLC | March 30, 2008 12:39 PM

The issue is not so much that Senator Obama might be a Muslim. The issue is the claim that he's hiding it, i.e. that he is the Manchurian andidate.

These type of alarmist conspiracy-theories reveal more about those delivering the theories than those the theories are about.

Posted by AKBY | March 30, 2008 12:49 PM

And to add Clinton to the list of conspiracy theories, look up her connection to the shadowy Christian political organization called "The Family".

Book coming out in May exposes her connection - which ought to really put paid to her already ridiculously low election chances.

Hey, SLC, Clinton's husband killed a lot more innocent people than I ever have (i.e., X thousands for him vs 0 for me). Of course, since they weren't Jews, I guess you figure they weren't "innocent". The scumbags you support in Israel are also responsible for scores of thousands of civilian deaths, with over a thousand in Lebanon just in 2006, and hundreds more of Palestinians in the last few months.

So, how about this? Fuck you, Zionist freak.

Posted by Richard Steven Hack | March 30, 2008 11:17 PM