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Making Things Up

21 Mar 2008 02:13 pm

This is some pretty striking stuff from the president:

President Bush said Thursday that Iran has declared that it wants to be a nuclear power with a weapon to "destroy people," including others in the Middle East, contradicting the judgments of a recent U.S. intelligence estimate.

As the article goes on to point out, Iran has not, in fact, ever declared that it wants to be a nuclear power and a fortiori has never declared an intention to use a nuclear weapon to destroy people. The official line from the NSC spokesman is that "the president shorthanded his answer " with "shorthanded" apparently being a new term meaning "lied." This brings me back to something I wrote in 2006:

Some hawks, like Jeffrey Bell, writing in the February 6 Weekly Standard, have adopted a strategy of simply making things up, like claiming that Ahmadinejad not only “says the Jewish Holocaust never happened” (which he did say) but also “muses about the possibility of correcting that Nazi failure by dropping a nuclear bomb on Israel.” This last seems a highly unlikely statement since Iran officially denies that it has a nuclear program, it's hard to imagine -- and there's no evidence -- that Ahmadinejad ever “mused” about dropping a nuclear bomb on anyone.

Bell later explained to me that he was using "poetic license," which I think is somewhat more elegant than the "shorthanded his answer" formulation. Still, the fundamental point is that some folks would really like people to believe that Iranian leaders are running around saying "let's build a nuclear bomb and drop it on Israel!" even though no leaders are, in fact, saying that. It's really not a small difference.

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Comments (39)

It's stuff like this that makes many people(myself included) wonder if Bush really does want a conflict with Iran. Because Bush sure seems to be aching for it.

Bell later explained to me that he was using "poetic license,"

An infraction like that should get you about 8 points on your poetic liscense.

So why don't the NY Times and Wash Post headline the story with "President lies to nation or to himself"?

Bush rapes, mutilates and kills 10 baby children every night.

Hey, it's not a lie, I'm using poetic license. And heck, it could be true, who knows what goes on in the privacy of the White house?

This is a fun game. You should use "poetic license" more yourself, Matthew.

Here's one - McCain wants to start a war with Iran. Oh, wait, I screwed up - that isn't poetic license, it's the sad truth.

Why would the Right Wing Machine ever stop making shit up? It's a remarkably successful strategy, what with their many enablers (FOX, talk radio, parrot blogs) and spineless rest off the media (views of earth's shape differ...).

It's pretty apparent the groundwork is being laid for an attack on Iran. Yeah, it's been in the making for awhile but nothing else explains the recent ramping up of rhetoric. I'd like to think the dynamics of a coming election and short time left in office would forestall such a war. However, I think Bush can pull it off. The burner control is going to get turned from medium to high very soon.
One other possiblity. Bush thinks he can convince the public Iran is on the verge of killing millions. They're going to attack Israel. The Dems will feel constrained in their criticism of Bush for fear of looking too dovish. The left flank of their support will get pissed about that. Hilarity and conniptions will ensue. McCain will appear the steady, wise and placcid statesman in the game and come out ahead.

Jeffrey Bell (like Mickey Kaus) copulates with goats!

That might not be literally true, but I'm exercising poetic license.

The U.S. intel community has facts, but Bush has Truthiness, and Truthiness wins every time.

Just ask O'Reiley, Hannity, Limbaugh, etc.

An infraction like that should get you about 8 points on your poetic liscense.

New rule: you are now only allowed to use poetic license if you do so in the form of a haiku.

Read the statement very carefully, and you can see why the Bushbuts can claim that Bush was not, technically, lying. You see, first he said that Iran wants to be a "nuclear power." Which they do. They want to use atomic energy to fulfill their energy needs. This can be construed to be a form of being a "nuclear power." Next, he said that the Iranians want a weapon which can "destroy people." Now, Iran wants to make and is making plenty of these weapons that destroy people-- bombs, guns, etc. Bush didn't say, exactly, that these weapons to destroy people are nuclear weapons, did he?

So, as you can see, it is unfair to claim that Bush is lying!

Matthew,

This is embarrassing, even by your standards. What you didn't write is that the leadership of Iran routinely calls for the destruction of Israel. They have produced and syndicated Ramadan miniseries that revive the blood libel. They fund terrorists that shoot rockets at Israel. They teach 10 year olds to worship martyrdom. I could go on. And . . .

They are building a nuclear weapon. The guy who is now considered the moderate, after the IRGC thugs kicked out Khatami's party from the Majlis in 2004, Rafsanjani actually has talked explicitly about how Iran survives a nuclear war. Even McConnell now says he regrets the phrasing of the NIE, which he contradicted in front of the Senate Intel committee last month. Now, does this mean Iran will definitely nuke Israel? No it doesn't. But it's not a lie to worry about this prospect, think it's a possibility, think maybe these maniacs mean what they say when they want to destroy the world's only Jewish state. Sometimes a lie is when you leave things out.

Eli

Ahmadinejad has called for Israel to be destroyed and wiped off the map, not really so far from saying he might drop a nuclear bomb on Israel

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/08/03/AR2006080300629.html

Destroy Israel? Ahmadinejad said Israel would be removed from the map the same way his examples of the USSR, Hussein's regime in Iraq and the Shah's regime in Iran were.

He also has never asserted that the Holocaust didn't happen. He referred to it using a word that was translated as myth but the point of that sentence was not that the Holocaust didn't happen, but that the story of the Holocaust has been elevated over religious stories.

He's never said more about the Holocaust than that studies of the Holocaust should be allowed without dissenting voices put in jail.

But Ahmadinejad's and Iran's real position, which is that there should be a referendum in which the Palestinians (including the refugees), Jews and residents of the territory of all religions should vote on a form a government is emotionally threatening to supporters of Israel. I understand that. This is not an easy issue for supporters of Israel to examine rationally.

For supporters of Israel, there is emotionally no difference between Israel's Jewish state status ending by a South Africa-style democratic agreement (as Iran favors) or it ending by nuclear destruction.

I can't argue against that emotion.

not really so far from saying he might drop a nuclear bomb on Israel

Except for, like, not.

I could go on. And . .

and you will...

and the provenence for all your information will be your pack of making shit up friends..and you will write some more breathless made up shit for the Sun...

Sigh. It shouldn't even need to be pointed out, but Eli is confusing two wholly separate issues: what the Iranians (may) be planning, and what they are saying. Iran has never said that it is building nuclear weapons, let alone to "destroy people". They could be lying, but that's not the point. If the Iranians say they aren't doing X but the president thinks they are, he should say that he thinks they're lying. Instead, he's just made up quotes to put in the mouths of Iranian leaders, "We're doing X".

Eli Lake:

This is embarrassing, even by your standards. What you didn't write is blah blah blah blah, etc.

Lake always provides an interesting window into the mindset of neocon central. Here he demonstrates that he and his feverish friends have actually managed to learn absolutely nothing from the past five years.

How do they do it? I don't know. But it's amazing to witness.

As usual, likudniks like Eli and Ben are Israel's biggest enemies.

The kind of apocalyptic conflict that the neocons and the likudniks are so desperately anxious for would result in the complete destruction of Israel, as well as millions of deaths in the Moslem world. Now I happen to have the old fashioned belief, that both of these things would be very bad, but even people like Eli and Ben, who masturbate to thoughts of killing Moslems, would consider a little more deeply the consequences for Israel.

"Rafsanjani actually has talked explicitly about how Iran survives a nuclear war."

I mean come on. How would they do that? With a big lead umbrella? Can you guys just try to be serious occasionally?

Re Eli Lake & Ben

I don't know how Mr. Lake and Mr. Ben can make such statements. Don't they know that the worlds' greatest expert on the Middle East, Prof. Juan Cole has absolutely denied that Mr. Amadinejad ever said any such thing? How can these gentlemen have such an un-Cole thought in their heads? Whatever is this world coming to? It's only that warmongering nasty Limey, Christopher Hitchens who had the temerity to question Prof. Coles' translation of Mr. Amadinejads' remarks. Just because he quoted a native Farsi speaker doesn't mean that Mr. Hitchens is being accurate. And even in the unlikely event that Prof. Cole may be in error and Mr. Amadinejad did make such statements, it's obvious that he is a conscious and paid Zionist conspirator who is trying to give the US and Israel an excuse to bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb Iran.

I assume SLC is talking about the "wiped from the map" comment. I don't speak any Farsi and I'm not in a position to judge subtleties in translation. That is most certainly not the point of Matt's post, which, again, is about whether or not Iran's leaders have stated that they want to a) acquire nuclear weapons and b) use them to destroy people. They haven't, but Bush claims that they have. Translational ambiguities aren't going to help you out with that.

I do like that you're implicitly calling us all anti-Semites. Keep up the good work in elevating the discourse

Hey SLC--The "irony" thing doesn't really work for you, especially since "warmongering" is a fair assessment of Hitchens' basic outlook.

I'd stick with your classic "straight-up vitriolic rant" approach--that way the casual reader can at least figure out which side you're on.

"President Bush said Thursday that Iran has declared that it wants to be a nuclear power with a weapon to "destroy people," including others in the Middle East, contradicting the judgments of a recent U.S. intelligence estimate."


As a few comments above already point out, this is a factual statement by Bush. Iran has openly talked about "wiping Israel off the map" and is openly pursuing a nuclear weapons.

Very lame effort on this one, Matt.

Oh, and if I remember from Ahmadinejad's talk about Columbia, Iran does not have homosexuals. At all.

Nukes and insane people: not a good combination.

Move along, nothing to see here...

"They are building a nuclear weapon."

Got any evidence for that? And since you used the present tense, I'm looking for evidence of CURENNT bomb-making activity, not activity from the past. I think you're just making shit up like the rest of the neocons.

Doesn't the U.S. have plans to survive a nuclear war to the detriment and despite our enemies? Oh, we do? Does that make us bad? No? So why is Iran's confidence of surviving a nuclear war bad?

Let's not forget that the upcoming Iran elections could see the president lose power to the more moderate Iranians. How much power does the president of Iran hold anyways?

Mushrooms underground
 where Ahmadinejad dreams
    nuclear winter.

Upcoming elections? Umm they already happened on March 14. The moderates lost big time because their candidates were barred from running. It was basically a contest between hard-line conservatives and pragmatic conservatives. And the hardliners won. Ahmadinejad is still doomed when he has to run next year. Rafsanjani has enough power now to force one of his candidates on the ballot for that election. And that candidate will win if the moderates don't boycott again. As for the power of the presidency, the office doesn't have much power. One could argue that Rafsanjani, as chairman of the Assembly of Experts, has more power. He'll chose the next Supreme Leader, which is the office with real power in Iran. Basically, Rafsanjani is a kingmaker, while Ahmadinejad is barely an Earl.

Kevin:

Iran is not OPENLY pursuing a nuclear weapon. They have OPENLY denied pursuing anything of the sort. They may of course be lying and be COVERTLY pursuing a nuclear weapon (though the NIE seems to imply otherwise), but that doesn't make your statement (and Bush's) any less of a misrepresentation.

Israeli deputy defense minister Matan Vilnai has vowed to destroy Palestinians in a 21st century holocaust.

He's never said more about the Holocaust than that studies of the Holocaust should be allowed without dissenting voices put in jail.

That's actually not true at all.

One example from CNN:

Last week, [Ahmadinejad] also expressed doubt about the killing by the Nazis of six million Jews during World War II, but Wednesday was the first occasion when he said in public that the Holocaust was a myth.

"They have invented a myth that Jews were massacred and place this above God, religions and the prophets," Ahmadinejad said in a speech to thousands of people in the Iranian city of Zahedan, according to a report on Wednesday from Islamic Republic of Iran Broadcasting.

This has nothing to do with Bush's statements, but it's probably not the best idea to counter Bush's misinformation/disinformation with more of the same.

I'm thinking the Saudi's wouldn't mind striking a blow against those uppity Shia Persians. Just think of what their oil would bed worth then for another year or two.

This might seem unrelated but for January Americas non oil trade deficit dropped from $40bil to $22bil YOY. However we spent $35 billion on oil that month compared to $20billion a year earlier. The crumbling dollar and the economic slowdown are working. Working in tandem with high oil prices to shift the balance of the dollar recycling game from Asia to among others, the Kingdoms, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and the UAE.

They are gaining a stupendous amount of power and leverage over us as we need them to play the dollar recycling game by buying Treasury, agency ie. Fannie Mae mortgage backed securities and shares in the Wall Street behemoths. The Saudis and the rest have a vested interest in keeping the dollar from falling of course, so it's a two way street of self interest.

Just one of many huge distortions in or free market. If the Saudis would ask pretty please, set Iran back 50 years how could we refuse?

Eli,

That comment was embarrassing, even by your standards. What you didn't write is that the leadership of the United States routinely calls for the destruction of the Iranian regime. Their politicians and journalists speculate idly about starting a war with Iran and spread libels about Iran's leaders. They arm Sunni militants in Iraq, who once waged an eight-year-long war against Iran and still commit acts of violence against Shiites. They teach 10 year olds that it's borderline treason to oppose a war of unprovoked aggression against Muslim nations based on trumped up allegations of illegal weapon programs. I could go on. . .

Now, does this mean the United States will definitely attack Iran? No it doesn't. But it's not a lie to worry about this prospect, think it's a possibility, think maybe these maniacs mean what they say when they threaten Iran. Making shit up and treating it as fact is always a lie, Eli. Sometimes it's also a fantastically stupid idea. You and your fellow travelers are dedicated craftsmen in this field.

"What you didn't write is that the leadership of Iran routinely calls for the destruction of Israel."

They have never done so. Complete lie.

SoCalJustice cites CNN. That is to laugh.

SLC cites Christopher Hitchens over Juan Cole (and numerous others Farsi scholars who have parsed the original Farsi of Ahmadinejad's statements). That is to laugh.

Kevin is utterly ignorant of everything going on. He is to laugh.

Iran has no nuclear weapons program. They MAY have a military nuclear weapons database program - like the military of every other significant sized nation on earth that wants to do their job. Obviously every military wants to know how nuclear weapons are built and what their capabilities are. It's part of the job - especially when your country, like Iran, is being threatened by both the US and Israeli nuclear arsenals. That does not lead to the conclusion that there is a nuclear weapons construction program.

The Supreme Leader of Iran has explicitly disavowed Iran EVER having nuclear weapons as "un-Islamic." While I don't make a habit of believing religious fanatics, I see no reason to doubt his sincerity in this case.

The case has been made by others that Iran having a nuclear weapon would in fact diminish their influence in the region by making the other nearby states recoil from them in suspicion, rather than assisting their obvious diplomatic efforts to be accepted as something less than Shia religious fanatics who will be a threat to the surrounding Sunni regimes.

The reality is that Bush and Cheney intend to start a war with Iran as soon as they can find a practical way to do so. For Cheney, that means getting Israel to make the first move. Israel seems to be balking at that, not wanting to be blamed when that war goes bad as the Iraq war, which it lobbied for, went bad (despite SLC's bullshit on that topic.)

If McCain gets in, we'll have that war within six months. If Clinton gets in, we'll have it within a year (as she fakes some diplomacy first before bowing to the will of her AIPAC owners.) If Obama gets it, we'll have it within two years, as he futzes around with some possibly serious, but completely flawed, "diplomacy", as he operates under the delusion that Iran can suspend enrichment.

But it is most likely that Bush will start the war, thus tying the hands of the next administration and guaranteeing that the oil companies and the military-industrial complex will get the big bucks from even more military spending, as the rest of the economy sinks into a depression instead of a recession from the $200/barrel oil and the dumping of the US dollar by China.

Unfortunately, there's nothing anyone can do to stop this from happening.

Dick,

Is al-Jazeera a good enough source for you?

Or are they run by Zionists?

They reported the exact same thing.

http://english.aljazeera.net/English/archive/archive?ArchiveId=17019

Here are some others:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/dec/14/iran.secondworldwar

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4527142.stm

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/12/14/world/main1124255.shtml

All easily accessible through all your leading search engines, Dick.

Dick,

Is al-Jazeera a good enough source for you?

Or are they run by Zionists?

They reported the exact same thing.

http://english.aljazeera.net/English/archive/archive?ArchiveId=17019

Here are some others:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/dec/14/iran.secondworldwar

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4527142.stm

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/12/14/world/main1124255.shtml

All easily accessible through all your leading search engines, Dick.

Analysis of the "denial of the Holocaust" myth:

Does Iran's President Want Israel Wiped Off The Map - Does He Deny The Holocaust?
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article12790.htm

Like I said - bullshit.

And my comment wasn't even directed at the Holocaust comment, but at the line that Ahmadinejad had called for the destruction of Israel, which neither he nor the Iranian government has ever done.

Dick,

You'd get more converts to transhumanism or whatever it is if you just admitted you were wrong when, you know, you are clearly wrong.

My post (and the links you called laughable) was about what Ahmadinejad has said, and not said, about the Holocast.

Arnold was wrong about that, and so are you, as the multiple sources have demonstrated.


Perhaps al Jazeera, the BBC and the Guardian are complicit in the Zionist conspiracy, or perhaps you are living up to your last name.

Cut your losses. You owe it to the other transhumanoids.


Comments closed April 04, 2008.

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