Diagnoses of autism are unquestionably on the rise in the United States, and parents and other friends and family of autistic children are understandably looking for answers. At a time, there was some plausible speculation that thimerosal, an additive in some vaccines, might be a cause of autism. The claim was investigated, as it should have been, but it turns out not to be true. Nevertheless, as tends to be the case with these things, some people still believe in the autism-thimerosal link despite the debunking evidence. Some people including, it seems, John McCain who thinks "there's strong evidence" of the autism-thimerosal link even though there is, in fact, no such evidence.
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McCain and Thimerosol
03 Mar 2008 08:22 am
Comments (94)
Matt,
Thimerosal is definately not a cause of autism. This was one of Don Imus' cause celebs. However, it was basically been taken out of vaccines around 2000, but the rate of autism diagnosis continues unabated...thus, it can't be the cause. More proof that our lawmakers are scientific dunces.
Josh
I posted this link a few days ago but since Mr. Yglesias has now raised the issue, I will post it again.
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2008/03/john_mccain_panders_to_the_mercury_militia.php
Dr. Orac, the blogmaster over at insolence, has posted a number of articles describing this issue and I recommend that anyone interested go over there to get more information. What's going on here is a cabal of unscrupulous frauds, such as a Mr. David Kirby, who are trying to convince parents to forgo having their children vaccinated. It is absolutely outrageous that Senator McCain is pandering to these quacks and the mainstream media should be calling him on it.
Here is another link to a post by Dr. Steven Novella on his blog which gives further information on the antivaccine scam, in particular, the fraudulent activities of Mr. David Kirby.
http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php?p=203
I fear this is one of those issues where the people who are wrong are much more fanatical and invested in the issue than the people who are right. Much like Cuba policy. It could be a net political winner for McCain, unless by some miracle the press reports it competently.
Are we entirely clear what McCain thinks about whether there are still POW/MIAs hidden in the jungles of Vietnam? Whether giraffes got long necks because they had to stretch to reach the leaves? Phlogiston? Animal magnetism? That sort of thing?
What was really disturbing about the autism-thimerisol (non-)link was how long it took for strong scientific evidence to be gathered. Mercury, as a neuro-toxin and present in thimerisol, was certainly one of a few substances that should have been tested years ago.
Science is too important to be left to politicians and the political hacks that control the medical-industrial-congressional complex in this country. My fears of government-controlled health insurance are based on this and many other "anomalies" -- I may have to get over it.
BTW, for mccain to speak on an mercury-autism link, can that be cynically observed as "bucking the drug companies", albeit the smaller ones that produce vaccines? It certainly fits with his maverick/independent reputation. -- Not certain that this is particularly dumb for him to do this if he wants to win. --
Actually, Matt, there is a ton of hard evidence linking themerisol to autism, in the U.S., Great Britain, China, etc. Quality studies been repeatedly published. Famous leaks from pharmacutical companies have been published. Famous, big-pharma studies have been effectively repudiated (like that famous London study a few year back; my, my, boys, those are some control variables you must have loaded!)
Don't take my word, do your own work, Matt.
It would be interesting if the media would find out if McCain is being misinformed by his staff on this issue or has come to the wrong conclusions all by himself. Unfortunately we're much more likely to get reports of the form "Professor X says the world is flat, Professor Y disagrees."
brooksfoe,
With regard to your first question, McCain served on the Select Senate Committee on POW-MIA Affairs, which reported in January 1993 that there were no POW/MIAs still alive in Vietnam.
This led to the normalization of US-Vietnam relations. McCain took a lot of political heat from the right on this issue.
I'm not a supporter of McCain, but I do believe in giving credit where it's due, and McCain deserves a lot of credit for his work on that committee.
Re MaxGowan
Mr. MaxGowan is a liar. There is not a shred of evidence that themerisol is linked to autism and the so-called quality studies to which he refers have been totally discredited. See the blogs of Drs. Orac and Novella for the information.
1. The fact of the matter is that themerisol was removed from vaccines several years ago and the rate of autism has not declined.
2. The scare campaign in Great Britain relative to vaccines has caused a serious reduction in the number of children getting measles vaccine which is now manifesting itself with an increase in the number of measles cases there. This is the result of people listening to fucktards like Mr. MaxGowan and David Kirby rather then knowledgeable medical professionals.
3. The amount of mercury being found in fish and elsewhere in the environment due to the burning of coal in electric power plants in the US and China far exceeds the amount of mercury that was ever present in vaccines. If the mercury militia was really interested in reducing exposure to mercury, they would be going after coal burning power plants instead of vaccines.
This really may be due to McCain trying to reenergize Imus's support for his candidacy, which at this point basically amounts to saying "I'm going to vote for John McCain, but..." and then talking about how great Obama is.
SLC is a pathological liar and bought and paid for by the pharmacutical industry. Or just another stooge. Hard to tell.
1. "Several years ago"? Might you give us a date, in your infinite wisdom, SLC? And if it did no harm, why on earth was it removed?
2. Tell us, SLC, how much mercury is actually in thererisol?
3. Do you know any families with a child with autism, or PDD (you know what that is, right, SLC?), etc.?
4. Are you suggesting autism rates are unaffected by the removal of themerisol, in that unspecified year, in unspecified areas?
I blame Imus.
His wife is an anti-vaccine nut.
This is understandable. Republicans hate science, but they're lukewarm on McCain. If he can demonstrate that he also hates science, he will win their votes. And what better way to demonstrate hate of science than to say it says what it does not say? How very shrewd, ignorance.
Big surprise. McCain has also appeared for the Discovery Institute, the clearing house for all things Intelligent Design Creationism.
http://thinkprogress.org/2007/02/12/mccain-creationism/
The Republican war on science continue unabated...
Re MaxGowan
As should be apparent, arguing with assholes like Mr. MaxGowan is a waste of time, just like arguing with HIV/AIDS deniers, evolution deniers, smoking/cancer deniers, CFC/ozone depletion deniers, 9/11 troofers, etc. Anyone who wants the facts on timerisol in vaccines should go to Dr. Oracs' and Dr Novellas' blogs where this issue is discussed in several threads. I notice that Mr. MaxGowan declined to respond to the links posted, indicating he is afraid to contest the views of medical professionals who, unlike himself, are knowledgeable on the subject matter. My question is, when is Mr. MaxGowan going to go after the coal and electric power industries for putting mercury in the environment. By the way, for the information of shithead MaxGowan, timerisol was removed from vaccines in 2002.
""Several years ago"? Might you give us a date, in your infinite wisdom, SLC?"
1999
"and if it did no harm, why on earth was it removed?"
Because it's easier to remove than argue the issue.
Ben Goldstein's Bad Science blog also has a lot on the bogus connections between vaccines and autism. Here's the latest, but you can search the blog for much, much more. He's highly critical of Big Pharma on the blog as well, which discredits some of MaxGowan's insistence that everyone supporting vaccination is a mindless stooge.
You know, when someone first mentioned the possible vaccine-thimerisol-autism link, I was skeptical, but found the line of reasoning interesting.
Then I looked at the research and saw that there wasn't a connection, particularly when one looks at the Danish study that compared autism rates in the post-thimerisol era. And then I stopped thinking about it.
Why is it that so many people seem to religiously attached to the issue? Look, it was floated as a possibility, it was considered, and there was found to be no connection. Move on.
So Mr. Maverick McStraightshooter is bothered by mercury in vaccines? Whatcha wanna bet the mercury in our air, water & food (from burning coal) doesn't bother him quite so much?
There's also no new food-allergy epidemic in America, but just try arguing that with people.
Actually, SLC, they started removing themorisol in 1998.
Nobody here seems to know why the parmas started put in thererisol, when, and by whom.
There are plenty of doctors out there who tow the official party line, who behave like the wholly-owned subsidiary we take many of them to be, even some good colleagues whom I adore, including one of our country's top pediatric researcher.
Are you a parent, SLC? How old are you anyway? And I gather you know no kids with autism or PDD or their families. But after all, what do parents know anyway?
Think of it this way: there's stronger evidence that McCain is suffering from dementia than there is that thimerisol causes autism. Do you think we should mention it to him?
I don't think it's hard to understand. The FDA has been evasive and secretive about their data, which tends to make people suspicious.
Imagine, the FDA actually lying to people!
Freddie, your comment is uninformed. People are diagnosed with autism spectrum disorder. It's believed by researchers that everyone has some autistic traits, and that they range over a wide spectrum. Hence, the term.
And I wonder if you're a parent. I don't know any normal parent who's "invested" in their child having a disorder. Indeed, accepting that your child has a problem (even one as relatively minor as a learning disability) is a very difficult thing.
Why is it that so many people seem to religiously attached to the issue?
I suspect it has a lot to do with our fear of the 'different' and our eagerness to lay blame. People have an irrational fear of autism (think of all the people refusing to get their kids vaccinated for MMR-- which has known, disabling and deadly consequences if a child gets sick), and parents tend to blame themselves if things go wrong. Much easier psychologically and culturally to blame Big Pharma (who has not been covering itself in glory these many years, let's face it) than to accept that sometimes things just happen, or that something less straightforward might be the cause.
Guess what happens to any doctor or researcher whose published conclusions are not in line with the Official Party Line? This is quite well documented.
Anyone on this thread who does not have children but who is dead certain about their opinions should be ignored.
Re MaxGowan
Is Mr. MaxGowan accusing Drs. Orac, Novella, and Goldacre of being under the control of big pharma? Provide some evidence. Having the temerity to have an unMxaGowan or unKirby thought in their heads is not evidence of being under such control.
All of the above physicians are sympathetic to the plight of parents with autistic children. Thats why they are so adamant in supporting evidence based medicine over the unsupported claims of cranks like David Kirby and the Griers.
I would cut McCain some slack here. He had a mother standing in front of him insisting that her child's autism was caused by vaccine preservatives. It was a mistake on his part but understandable given the circumstances.
Careful, Persia - you are lumping in two things. Parents are seldom told you could have gotten the MMR done safely, separately, and pre-1998, without mercury. The MMR is what pushed a lot of kids over the edge, after repeated exposure to mercury.
The pharmas, and their wholly-owned subsidiary, the medical establishment, expect us to believe that repeatedly injected infants with this poison (that would be mercury) will hurt no one.
Anyone on this thread who does not have children but who is dead certain about their opinions should be ignored.
Whether one has children or not is completely irrelevant to assessing the scientific evidence for the existence of a thimerosal/autism link.
MaxGowan, at 9:27 you referred to "a ton of hard evidence" and "quality studies," but provided no links. Please provide a link to a scientific study of the type you are talking about.
Links forthcoming. I'm at work. My links are at home. But you can do your own homework if you so wish; no one is stopping you. Being a parent matters. Answer some of the hard questions being posed. Why do you think the questions being posed are being posed?
Parent of an Asperger's son who has never had a vaccine with thimerisol, I have never believed the vaccine/autism link and even if I did I recognize that the pandemics of the diseases that we vaccinate against were far more deadly than a social/functional deficit in a percentage of children. The return of mumps and measles in communities in the US and UK is far more concerning to me as parents who don't vaccinate their children put me and mine at risk by their negligent behaviour.
Why is there a rise in diagnoses in learning disorders and autism spectrum disorders? Researchers like my father have put in hundreds of hours in testing, writing and advocating for diagnostic models, research grants and implementation of learning strategies that work. Teachers, administrators and support staff in thousands of school districts have worked with medical people to test, implement and train children, parents and staff to help children with hundreds of previously unknown learning variants to adapt to our educational systems. For lazy politicians to turn the clock back on their hard work and sacrifice is inexcusable. It is bad enough that crackpot radio and TV personalities can boost their rating and earnings by throwing these families under the bus, it is inexcusable for our elected officials.
MaxGowan a parent invested enough in deciding to forgo vaccination could have asked, and should have done their damn research. I asked at my child's first MMR vaccination, as I was skeptical about a connection myself.
And you still have no evidence linking mercury with autism, no proof that the MMR pushed anyone 'over the edge,' and nothing but namecalling for the devoted medical professionals in several nations who have investigated this issue.
Pretty soon you'll be lurking under a bridge and threatening to eat goats.
Max and Susie, being a parent of an autistic child does not automatically make you a neurologist, nor does it give you the ability to override scientific evidence. So no, being the parent of an autistic child gives you no special insight into this issue.
Peria, my kids have their vaccines. There are many devoted medical professionals. Many just keep their tunnel vision going.
Cain, like Hell.
Too many angry young white boys who have not lived real lives yet.
Yeah, not really refuting my point there, Max. Personal experience, i.e., a n=1 study, means bubkus when evaluating claims scientifically.
MaxGowan, a parent has experience with one case of autism. Researchers have experience with thousands. Not only does a parent of an autistic child get no special insight into this issue, but a parent has considerably less, unless that parent also happens to be a researcher in that specific field.
My, mom, who actually is a biochemist, does have a child with a chronic disease, and she can leverage her insight and personal connections to get in touch with experts on the matter. Not coincidentally, she has never ended up contacting and consulting with cranks and fraudsters. Not because she has some kind of blinders on or vested interests in "adhering to the party line" (she has tenure and her child is more important than her reputation), but because she knows that the science is the most important thing.
No, I don't have any children. I have, however, worked at a school for children with severe emotional disturbance, and there are many children there diagnosed on the autism spectrum. I'm amazed that you could be shocked by the notion of a parent being invested in the idea of having a sick child; Munchausen syndrome would seem to indicate that many parents are exactly that. People like to have their problems medicalized; a woman who has an autistic child is someone who deserves sympathy and respect, or so the thinking goes. It's not conscious, but it's very real. And just as in the rash of learning disabilities in the 90s, the autism "epidemic" is a result of faddishness. Ask any experienced pediatrician, and they'll tell you that parents constantly self-select diagnoses for their children. They march into an office and won't walk out without the diagnosis their looking for.
When people routinely throw around a figure of 1 in 40, saying someone has been diagnosed as autistic loses all meaning. Sure, the autism spectrum would be useful if it was used intelligently and responsibly; there are degrees of autism and it's useful to remember that different children have different levels of impairment. But it isn't. It's been overused to the point that it's lost any ability to rationally describe anything. When a kid who's so severely impaired by autism that he is nonverbal is compared to a child who only has mild, subtle social impairments-- when they're both described as being autistic, or on the autism spectrum-- what possible meaning does autistic really have? That isn't to say that you don't have sympathy for the latter child, or that you are judgmental towards him or her. But medicalizing his or her problems, or confusing one diagnosis with another, is unhelpful and counterproductive.
N = hundred of thousands of parents per country. But what do they know anyway?
Point of order, it generally not "autistic child" any more than it is the "cancerout child." Autism does not have to define a child.
The greatest growth was in PDD. Does no one here not know what this means? Does no one here not know how much mercury was in the vaccines?
Thimerosal has been removed from vaccines, and it has been conclusively shown that there has been no corresponding decline in the occurrence of these disorders. Do you really not understand that this disproves the existence of a causal link? It's not difficult.
It is easy for a parent to get caught up in the minutia of their child's problems. That is seen in the investment of time and energy needed to get treatments and answers. However, autism isn't really subject to medical interventions. An autistic child may have medical conditions but those are not necessarily due to the autism itself. It is possible to be both autistic and celiac, to have allergies and ADHD, the treatments though may be radically different. One may be pharmaceutical and medical, the other may be educational and therapeutic. The important thing is to use appropriate treatments for each disorder and not obfuscate the issues. A parent's strong suit is recognizing changing symptoms in their child, a doctor's is knowing new studies and treatments, a teacher's may be in recognizing learning deficits and behaviours that don't show up in the home environment, a therapist/researcher's may be in knowing how to address those deficits.
It is just extremely convenient and time-saving to put it all on a vaccination program that has saved countless lives at minimal cost and risk and not have to put in the legwork.
Do you really not understand that this disproves the existence of a causal link? It's not difficult.
It's not that difficult for those who think scientifically and understand the scientific method. For people who think that making a scientific conclusion is like coming up with an idea for the op-ed page in his weekly column, it might be a bit harder to understand.
The greatest growth was in PDD. Does no one here not know what this means? Does no one here not know how much mercury was in the vaccines?
Yes, it means as one leg is kicked out from under the thimerosol argument a new one appears. It is like fighting a hydra without the fire and pitch. Most children with PDD who are given good support at an early age (due to early diagnosis- still the gold standard of care for any problem) are able to become active members of standard public education. The trick is to learn what their problems and deficits are by close observation and teaching them skills at adaptation. Hard fact is that all people are wired differently, schools are organized for the median, those outside the median need help adapting or other educational options. We all need to learn to be more flexible and adaptive and stop blaming and start learning.
MaxGowan: The MMR is what pushed a lot of kids over the edge, after repeated exposure to mercury.
Of course, the MMR vaccine is a live vaccine, so it would never contain an anti-microbial agent like thimerosal. So there have never been mercury in the MMR vaccine.
The key lies in your first sentence. Diagnoses of autism are on the rise. That doesn't mean autism is on the rise.
Actually, that has been studied. The state of California commissioned a study to determine the cause of the dramatic increase of autism related expenditures. They controlled for diagnostic criterion, international migration, medical benefit-driven interstate migration, and other effects. They found that the rate of autism spectrum disorders is increasing even allowing for a host of potentially misleading circumstances.
This can be explained by the newly found genetic links to autism.
My wife and I have similar personalities. We are reserved and socially awkward. We always found that most people were unpredictably bizarre in their behavior. They engaged in small-talk and other niceties that were pointless, yet evidently predictable to eachother as some sort of ritual. When we met, it was as if we finally found someone else who wasn't crazy.
Needless to say, we were the wierd ones. While we probably wouldn't be diagnosed even on the mild end of the autistic spectrum disorder, we showed considerable tendencies in that direction. We have two autistic children.
You might think that if it is genetic, there would be no reason for it to be increasing lately. That would be wrong. For the last 40+ years, we have been constantly increasing the pool of potential spouses that any person can have. Women, in particular, have significantly more choice in whom they marry than they used to. Women are much freer to seek out someone they would prefer now than they did 50 years ago, someone much more like themselves. It is much easier now for unusual people like my wife and I to meet than it was before.
You must also keep in mind some of the positive traits evident in many cases of autism - single-minded persistence, phenominal memory, excellent calculation skills and pattern recognition etc. These make it likely that parents of potentially autistic children will be successful enough to be attractive mates. That keeps the genes in the pool.
The MMR vaccine was loaded with Thimerosol in the 1990s.
www.sarnet.org
Actually, there is now evidence of a decline in the autism spectrum rate, in areas that have historically been good at keeping accurate records.
There has always been autism, PDD, Aspergers, etc. and alway will be.
Funny, the pediatrician my kids go to, we don't have this argument. She knows.
Great, a link to the subscription firewall of some guy's personal autism website.
This FDA page contains a table (scroll down) stating that MMR has never contained Thimerosal.
Yes, Max, we're all being paid by pharma, science doesn't matter, and you're fighting the good fight against the OMGpharmaOMG conspiracy. Keep telling yourself that, all the while compromising our herd immunity and ensuring others die from preventable disease.
max: The MMR vaccine was loaded with Thimerosol in the 1990s.
Again, the MMR vaccine is a live virus vaccine. If it were loaded with thimerosal in the 90s, then there would have been a huge resurgence of measles, mumps and rubella as no one vaccinated would have been actually received the vaccine.
You are confusing two different pseudo-science theories. In England, the theory was that the large amount of live virus in the MMR vaccine overloaded the immune system and caused autism, not that the mercury did it.
Mr. MaxGowan has still not answered the question as to whether Drs. Orac, Novella, and Goldacre are in the tank for big pharma. Answer the question or quit posting the crap you are posting. He also hasn't answered the question about mercury from coal burning electric power plants.
By the way, although it is none of Mr. Maxgowans' business, I have a cousin who was born with cerebral palsy and I am well aware of the burden such an individual places on the family. If Mr. MaxGowan thinks that autism is trying, he would find cerebral palsy much worse.
Anyone on this thread who does not have children but who is dead certain about their opinions should be ignored.
Let's make one thing absolutely clear here: That's not how science works.
Anyway, I have a good friend with an autistic son, and she thinks the vaccination link is a load of bunk. Happy now?
It really frightens me to see the numbers of anti-science crazies come out when talking about vaccines or HIV. I'm not sure HIV-denialism has a big constituency in this country, but in the UK it is disturbingly large.
SLC, I know both very well and have for decades. Try a little less diarhea of the mouth and constipation of the brain.
Hey, SLC, thanks for my morning laugh, you trying to pull rank on me! Woo-Hoo!
Re MaxGowan
1. It would be superfluous to accuse Mr. MaxGowan of constipation of the brain since he doesn't have one.
2. "Hey, SLC, thanks for my morning laugh, you trying to pull rank on me! Woo-Hoo!"
I don't have the slightest idea what this sentence means.
Still waiting for Mr. MaxGowan to tell us whether Drs. Orac, Novella, and Goldacre in the tank for big pharma.
"Funny, the pediatrician my kids go to, we don't have this argument. She knows."
Most pediatricians are not scientists. Their capacity to evaluate scientific findings, while better then most laymen, is not very good. Like doctors in any field, they are likely to have beliefs based on relatively uncritical acceptance of other people's work. It would actually be hard to find the time to practice medicine if one insisted upon rigorous examination of every pertainent finding.
When you consider that pediatricians are not even expected to know anything about autism other than when a referral to a specialist is in order, it is not surprising that yours is suffering from this misconception about thimerisol.
I know a lot of parents who are emotionally attached to the Thimerosal idea. The evidence suggests to me that they are wrong, but they certainly mean well and are desperate with the desire to help their children. So when I see obscenity laden rants like SLC's I really wonder who's more interested in pursuing the truth and who's more invested in pursuing vendettas. SLC certainly appears to be in the latter camp.
I also don't give much credence to Freddie's take that parents are actively seeking austism/asperger diagnoses for their kids. Parents may be happy with diagnoses like ADD - it's not stigma laden and you can get drugs and special treatment - but admitting autism for many parents seems to be like admitting failure. In my experience most parents strongly resist an autism diagnosis, unfortunately in many cases well past the point where a therapeutic intervention might have been more successful.
it is not surprising that yours is suffering from this misconception about thimerisol
My suspicion is that since MaxGowan has no objection to vaccinating his children, his pediatrician is willing to allow him to rant all he likes about the pharma-conspiracy-to-give-us-autism-with-thimerosol and cover it up while allowing the pediatrician to treat MaxGowan's children as he/she sees fit.
Pediatricians have a professional duty to treat all patients with the best care possible, and as long as the parents don't interfere with that duty and allow the children to get the best care possible, I suspect pediatricians are willing to let parents believe whatever they like.
If MAxGowan refused to have his children vaccinated, I suspect the pediatrician would have told him to either reconsider or find another pediatrician.
Well, I'm not a parent, but I do work with children with autism and other developmental differences for a living, and have for about seven years, so I'll just leap in anyways.
There is no thimerosal-autism link. Rates of incidence have continued to climb despite the removal of thimerosal from American vaccines. This does not mean that a mercury-autism link has been debunked (nor has it been established). There are many confounding factors in this, including that some researchers found the levels of mercury contained in the circa pre-2000 vaccines was higher than publicly reported. In addition, those vaccines were not destroyed, but shipped to countries with less stringent standards, like China, who also saw a rise in diagnoses.
But, it's like the first few commenters said: there's an awful lot of correlation, but not causation. The abilities most apparently affected by ASD typically emerge at the same developmental stages when vaccine administration is recommended.
Mercury can affect brain development in the early developmental years, before the blood-brain barrier is fully developed. It does so by interfering with the "pruning" process by which plastic brains shed neuronal connections. This has been linked to learning disabilities, ADHD, and mental retardation. We also know that mercury is far more prevalent than we normally consider: it is in groundwater supply, aerosolized in some areas, in fish, and has even been found in high fructose corn syrup (which is in goddamn near everything in the food supply).
But there is, to date, no study positively linking mercury to autism. In fact, the latest research posits a confluence of numerous factors and several different "types" of autism -- different causes leading to similar behavioral and developmental traits.
But there should also be no question that autism, as the developmental diagnosis du jour, is over-diagnosed. Autism gets the money. Autism holds out hope for a "cure." Autism has far less stigma than other developmental differences. My state-funded agency (which was one of the information sources for the epidemiological study that debunked the thimerosal-autism hypothesis) gets far too many referrals for autism without excluding Sensory Integration Disorder, Auditory Processing Disorder, or several other diagnoses which, in interaction with a learning difference or delay and environmental factors could lead to similar behavioral traits. Autism is over-diagnosed. But we've also gotten much, much better at recognizing it as well.
Bullshit, vanya. Every person who doesn't get vaccinated is compromising our herd immunity. Thus, if Max's misinformation persuades anyone not to have their children vaccinated, it has serious public health costs. Countering such misinformation should be done as forcefully as possible.
People who hold to the mercury/autism connection are not unlike creationists, HIV/AIDS deniers, 9/11 troofers; they're all deniers and no amount of evidence and rationality will ever change their mind. Because of this lack of logic, they don't deserve to be in the conversation on these issues. Any inclusion will only give the impression that they have some sort of legitimate point to make and that they're arguing in good faith. Frankly, mockery like SLC was giving is about all they deserve.
If Mr. MaxGowan thinks that autism is trying, he would find cerebral palsy much worse.
Not to demean the suffering caused by cerebral palsy, but I disagree. A severely autistic child places an immense strain on a family. It's not like you're raising Bill Gates - autistic children can be unpredictably violent, have temper tantrums lasting hours, wander away from home, smear feces on walls (as adolescents) and through all that remain impenetrable and incomprehensible to you. A child with cerebral palsy will love you back. It may on some level be more emotionally draining to have a child with cerebral palsy - because you can see the individual trapped inside and that hurts, but raising a severely autistic child demands all of the rigors of parenting times ten with few or none of the rewards.
Tyro,
I suspect your explanation is probably more likely than mine.
Re vanya
Excuse me Mr. vanya; I provided links to threads by Dr. Orac and Dr. Novella who have commented on the mercury/thimerisol issue on many occasions. In addition, another commentor has pointed to Dr. Goldacre who has also commented on this issue. The fact is that Mr. vanya, if he would trouble himself to go to these blogs, will find that these physicians have carefully studied the literature on the subject of autism and have concluded that the mercury militia consists of cranks like David Kirby and the Griers along with credulous parents who ignore the scientific findings. The attitude of the mercury militia differs not at all from the attitude of the followers of Pat Michaels on global climate change, the followers of Peter Duesberg on HIV/AIDS denial, the followers of the conspiracy theorists on 9/11, the followers of William Demski on evolution, etc. None of these folks are interested in scientific facts, and neither is Mr. MaxGowan.
Cain,
The difference to me is that most public proponents of creationism are acting in bad faith. People who are not acting in bad faith don't deserve ridicule and scorn no matter how stupid their beliefs. If I meet a 65 year old rural semi-educated devout Christian, my first reaction is usually not to call her a fucktard despite the fact that I find her belief system stupid and probably dangerous. Maybe MaxGowan is acting in bad faith, but SLC's and your responses just strikes me as overwrought. I happen to know a lot of people with children who are on the spectrum - and most of them have actually come around to accepting that thimerosal is not a cause of autism. So evidence and rationality do work, and comparing these people, most of whom live every day with emotional stress you can't understand, to creationists is pathetic.
Re vanya
1. I have a flash for Mr. vanya. Many children who suffer from cerebral palsy are also mentally retarded, like my cousin.
2. The parents of autistic children who follow the mercury militia may not be acting in bad faith but the leaders are. Go over to the blogs I have referred to on several occasions and Mr. vanya will find chapter and verse as to the bad faith of David Kirby and the Griers, among others. As Mr. Cain puts it, the Kirbys and the Griers are monsters who bear great responsibility for the return of whooping cough and measles by their trashing of vaccination to prevent these diseases. Kirby is certainly comparable with Demski, Michaels, and especially HIV/AIDS denier Duesberg.
Vanya, I understand your distinction, but I also understand SLC's frustration. The facts seem meaningless to most of these people, and the current outbreak of measles in California is living proof that this bad science affects people's lives. People will, in all likelihood, die as a result of the anti-vaccine crusade.
Pediatrician are by definition scientists.
Heavens, I guess it's impossible to be pro-science, pro-non-harmful vaccines, but dare question the medical establishment and especially their masters.
Thanks for the laughs.
Now you're claiming to be "pro-science"? Thanks for the laughs yourself. You still have not provided one shred of scientific evidence or rebuttal of the current science on the subject.
Look, it is clear by now that you are (a) strongly emotionally invested in this topic (b) totally unable or unwilling to separate your emotional connection from any ability to rationally evaluate the facts, and (c) scientifically illiterate.
That's all fine, but it means that engaging in discussion with you is truly a waste of time. One can only hope to minimize the impact of misguided persons like you on public health policy.
And how much mercury is in Thimeresol? How much? What do the most recent data from California reveal? The level of intellectual dishonesty here is something else. Talk about projection.
Pediatrician are by definition scientists.
Actually, no, they're doctors. There's a good chance they have undergraduate degrees in biology, but a medical degree is not a degree in the sciences. Closely related, but not the same.
For comparison's sake, consider the case of diabetes. The NIH recently forced a study on diabetes intervention to halt because one of the treatent regimens (A hyper-agressive approach to blood sugar reduction) was causing the patients to die at higher rates than the standard treatment(which permits higher blood sugar levels). Both treatments gave a much better outcome than non-intervention.
Diabetes docs (of whom I know quite a few) were heavily invested in the failed treatment. Invested in terms of time, money, and reputations. And yet this study, which found a 3% difference in death rates between the two approaches, sent them all scrambling to change their patients' medications as fast as they possibly could. And this was for a treatment that everyone believed would work.
Compare this to the Thimerosal studies. The medical community was quite worried about Thimerosal's effects, and the studies were commisioned specifically to look for any harm that organomercuries might cause.
They found no correlation. None. The time-course was particularly damning, as it found no "blip" in autism rates during the period when Thimerosal was removed from circulation. That is as close as science comes to "priving" that two phemomena are not linked. It take a tremendous supply of sophistry or conspiracy mongering to argue otherwise.
As for the claim that it is somehow discouraged for scientists to "dare question the medical establishment and especially their masters":
I'm a biologist. The only thing my colleagues like better than coming up with new data themselves is pointing out the flaws in other scientists' data. Pointing out the flaws in your boss's data is even better. Most labs are fueled by cappucino and schadenfreude (and grants, always grants). It verges on the farcical to suggest that this collection of sharp-tongued egomaniacs is somehow suppressing important data.
I meant to write "proving", not "priving" above.
Sorry for the typo.
max: And how much mercury is in Thimeresol? How much?
One atom per molecule? Why would the chemical composition of the compound matter?
And I have no idea why you'd declare all pediatricians scientists.
This "bad faith" can be just blindness to logic and fact. It happens to intelligent people.
Historical example I am familiar with is associated with Stalin's purges of 1936-37. Stalin figured that Polish Communist Party was actually lead by Polish secret police (or Trotskists, which was somehow the same thing). The party was illegal in Poland. The leaders were either underground, or in Soviet Union, or in France, or in Polish prisons.
You may think that nobody by this time, who followed events, as those people had to, could be blind to the fact that Stalin was just murdering people. But the leaders not in Soviet Union obediently came there, especially from France, to explain the errors of the accusations. Fatal mistake. Literally.
As a result, post war Polish Communist leaders were those saved by being in Polish prisons.
I mean, they were not exactly stupid. But Stalin's paranoia did not make sense (or some very twisted sense at best), and people often assume "but it must make sense", "but there has to be a reason" etc. And they would not change their mind even if their lives depended on it. Literally.
Funny, the pediatrician my kids go to, we don't have this argument. She knows.
I thought you said all doctors and pediatricians were part of some worldwide conspiracy to make millions of dollars by killing kids to sell vaccines?
Oh I get it, your pediatrician is special. That sounds an awful lot like a delusion of reference. Perhaps you should take a look at the DSM IV sometime.
23 consecutive large scale epidemiological studies have shown no link. They've shown no link in the US, no link in the UK, no link in Australia, no link in Switzerland, no link in Denmark, no link in Sweden, no link in France, and no link in Germany.
The total number of kids involved in these 23 cumulative, CONSECUTIVE studies is well over 500,000.
Now lets look the opposite side. Andrew Wakefield's bogus research that was retracted in 1998 involved a sample size of 22 freaking kids. Thats 500,000 kids vs a flawed, fraudulent study of 22 kids.
School is in session. Ring the bell.
This is a rather disappointing conversation.
People arguing that Thimerosal might have something to do with autism spectrum disorders aren't exactly the arch-villains of anti-science agitation. They aren't coextensive with theocratic "don't you dare teach Darwin" agitators.
This is pretty minor league science, folks. We're talking about studies that gather poorly characterized data about hard-to-define conditions from more or less reasonably constructed samples, apply primitive statistical techniques and then make ex cathedra pronouncements about whether A does or does not cause B. All without ANY theory of what actually transpires when thimerosal is injected or or what physically determines autism. If you want to fight the Manichean battle of good vs. evil over this topic, you're on the wrong movie lot.
I don't know whether mercury contributes to autism or not, but I *would* like there to be more research into the possible links between heavy metal toxicity and neurological disorders generally. That won't happen if people get massively defensive about the VERY IDEA that pharma companies might have injected lots of people with something they didn't really test thoroughly and therefore don't want anybody doing research on for fear of liability. Unfortunately it's a lot easier to do a limited study, find that based on the selective evidence examined, there's not much indication of an effect and then shout CASE CLOSED and cut off all future funding for anything remotely related.
What if decades of heavy metal pollution was contributing to making people crazy and going on shooting sprees? Might that kind of connection be of interest? Won't happen if pharma says, "uh oh, too similar to that scary thimerosal can of worms, better not fund that!"
Actually, no, they're doctors
Actaully, no, they're physicians. Doctors have PhDs which generally require a peer reviewed contribution to the body of scientific knowledge. Physicians co-opted the title doctor in order to combat the widely held public perception that they were grave robbing vampires. But I digress...
As far as I'm concerned, there is no benefit to using a vaccine laced with mercury. I'm all for vaccines, but thimerosol is a preservative. It's sole purpose is to increase the shelf life of the vaccine. So given a choice between a vaccine that is Thimerosol-free and a vaccine laced with a supposedly inert form of poison, I will always choose the poison-free version. It doesn't matter to me whether there is any scientific evidence of a link to autism. I'm personally very glad this issue caused such a stir and led to the removal of this preservative from vaccines. I don't understand why so many people want to defend it's use. If someone can produce a study that shows how the removal of this preservative has led to a spike in the cost of vaccines, and therefore people are choosing not to get vaccinated, then I'd reconsider. But I'm still willing to pay more money to have the poison free alternative injected into my children. My first concern is the health of my children, not the convenience of the drug companies and the CDC. It's not something I'm willing to gamble on.
BTW, I understand thimerosol is still used in flu shots.
STS, while the anti-vaccination groups aren't co-existent with the creationist, they are still bad. First, they are, by definition, against one of the most effective method of preventing diseases. This hurts not only those who choose not to be vaccinated, or their children, but everyone. Herd immunity is important. Sure science teaching should be properly done, but preventing the spread of measles and diphtheria while learning about good science is even more important.
Second, I'll agree that more research on the effects of heavy metals on people is important. But these anti-vaccination groups are opposed to this. Instead, they want more studies into a single question. The studies of vaccinations and ASD are pretty extensive. Its not just a single limited study. Its multiple studies in many countries from many different fund sources. There's not likely to be anything else gained from repeating the studies yet again. We'd be better off studying other things.
I'm personally very glad this issue caused such a stir and led to the removal of this preservative from vaccines. I don't understand why so many people want to defend it's use.
Recognizing that the causal link between thimerosal and autism has been shown not to exist is not the same thing as defending the use of thimerosal. Take the mercury out, sounds good to me! But don't cling to a hypothesis that has been ruled out scientifically, and ESPECIALLY don't use it to "justify" a bogus anti-vaccination crusade that is hurting public health right now.
The reason why people believe in an autism-vaccination link is, in my opinion, obvious.
It is because vaccines are mandatory and a lot of people automatically suspect anything if the government tells them they have to do it. It's just like fluoridation. When the government starts forcing something on people, a lot of people have a tendency to assume that there must be something sinister going on.
Glaivester: it's also because they happen at about the same time - kids get vaccinated and then, a few months later, some of them are diagnosed autistic - so to the scientifically illiterate the link is obvious.
If there were a disease that mainly affected kids at the age of 16-18, there would be a group of parents convinced that it was caused by exposure to driving lessons. I personally plan to start campaigning against Garrison Keillor on the grounds that listening to the Prairie Home Companion causes people's hair to go grey.
I've never really researched this subject before, but after having read these comments, something occurred to me, and with one simple entry "autism different types of mercury" in a search bar, the first thing that came up was:
"“Thimerosal has been used for decades, but the surge in vaccinations caused fear that possible accumulations of ethyl mercury, the kind in thimerosal, might exceed safe levels – at least, when based on the stringent risk guidelines applied to its better-understood chemical cousin, methyl mercury, which is associated with eating fish,” said Michael Pichichero, M.D., professor of Microbiology/Immunology, Pediatrics and Medicine at the University of Rochester and the study’s main author.
Scientists are learning that the two mercury species actually behave quite differently. "
Turns out, the sort of mercury used has a remarkably short half-life in the human body. This would seem even more to discredit the link, given that the levels needed to cause injury were calculated on the much more injurious form of mercury.
As for parents being a better resource for proof of a link, my experience as a youth volunteer is that parents often times have a hard time accepting that things that happen to their kids sometimes are random. It gives some people comfort or the illusion of control to have something to blame things on. However, I'm inclined to go with the scientific standards and reasoning that gave us the polio vaccine and heart defibrilator. Call me cautious.
Senator McCain, unfortunately, knows nothing about childhood vaccines. Here's the current Center for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) position statement on thimerosol in vaccines:
Mercury and Vaccines (Thimerosal)
Thimerosal is a mercury-containing preservative used in some vaccines and other products since the 1930s. There is no convincing scientific evidence of harm caused by the low doses of thimerosal in vaccines, except for minor reactions like redness and swelling at the injection site. However, in July 1999, the Public Health Service agencies, the American Academy of Pediatrics, and vaccine manufacturers agreed that thimerosal should be reduced or eliminated in vaccines as a precautionary measure.
Since 2001, with the exception of some influenza (flu) vaccines, thimerosal is not used as a preservative i
The key lies in your first sentence. Diagnoses of autism are on the rise. That doesn't mean autism is on the rise. You saw an almost identical phenomenon with learning disability several years back. The fact is that parents become very invested in the notion that their child is suffering from a particular disorder, and, when that disorder lacks a telling physiological signal, it's very likely a doctor will diagnosis that disorder. Medicine is a service industry; doctors tend to do what their patients want them to do. Witness the rise of the autism spectrum as one of the central notions in discussion of the disorder; it legitimizes the diagnosis for children who have very little impairment. That's not to say that they may not "really" have autism; but it invites the kind of meaningless statistic as "1 in 40 children is diagnosed with autism!" That means nothing as it includes children both who are severely impaired and those with little impairment at all. But it contributes to the hysteria.
Posted by Freddie | March 3, 2008 8:38 AM