McCain Enters the Octagon

Virginia Postrel highlights this section of a David Plotz article on Ultimate Fighting to underscore McCain's weird let's ban everything instincts. For example, McCain decided at one point that UFC bouts should be banned:

When I tell people I'm an ultimate fighting fan, they invariably respond: "Don't people get killed all the time doing that?" But no one has ever been killed at the UFC--though boxers are killed every year. No one has even been seriously injured at the UFC. On the rare occasions when a bout has ended with a bloody knockout, the loser has always walked out of the ring.

But this does not impress boxing fans, who are the most vigorous opponents of extreme fighting. McCain sat ringside at a boxing match where a fighter was killed. When I asked him to explain the moral distinction between boxing and ultimate fighting, he exploded at me, "If you can't see the moral distinction, then we have nothing to talk about!" Then he cut our interview short and stormed out of his office.

I, for one, can't see the moral distinction and it seems troubling to contemplate the idea of a president who's banning stuff based on moral distinctions he can't even be bothered to explain. It was, however, straight-talky of him to at least come out and admit that he has no defense of his position on the issue besides a desire to impose his tastes on the country.

Comments

The long term effects of boxing are a hell of a lot worse than MMA--those big pillows they wear on their fists don't protect the head, they protect the hands and let the fights drag on. The cumulative head trauma causes a lot more damage than a broken arm or leg might

Posted by Jack | March 13, 2008 9:13 AM

1) This stuff is all bullshit, anyway. Any half-way decent fighting method is too dangerous for sporting events.

If these oafs went up against a real fighter, they would be down in two seconds: their knee joint shattered by a kick and their windpipe crushed by a punch. Plus cranial bleeding from a kick to their temple.

"Dueling" is a stupid mindset -- on a battlefield, you destroy you enemy quickly. Because if you dick around waving your hands, his buddies will stick a knife in your kidney.

2) In the days when men carried 45s , you didn't have this Roman circus/bloodsport perversion.

Posted by Don Williams | March 13, 2008 9:26 AM

But no one has ever been killed at the UFC--though boxers are killed every year. No one has even been seriously injured at the UFC.

ok ... this calls for some sense of numeracy. how many UFC bouts are there each year vs. how many boxing matches each year?

Posted by fists of fury | March 13, 2008 9:34 AM

Without disputing Don Williams's first assertion (though I will note that he really seemed to enjoy writing it ...), does Don really think there were no prizefighters or wrestlers until we got all sissified sometime in the twentieth century?

Posted by Warren Terra | March 13, 2008 9:37 AM

In the days when men carried 45s , you didn't have this Roman circus/bloodsport perversion.

Actually, prizefighting was a big sport in the 19th Century, although many cities and states tried banning it.

Posted by Just Dropping By | March 13, 2008 9:37 AM

"This stuff is all bullshit, anyway. Any half-way decent fighting method is too dangerous for sporting events.

If these oafs went up against a real fighter, they would be down in two seconds: their knee joint shattered by a kick and their windpipe crushed by a punch. Plus cranial bleeding from a kick to their temple.

"Dueling" is a stupid mindset -- on a battlefield, you destroy you enemy quickly. Because if you dick around waving your hands, his buddies will stick a knife in your kidney."

Don, you are perhaps the biggest moron on the planet. I qualify with "perhaps" because I need to hear more of your incoherent ramblings before I can definitively decide if, in fact, you are the biggest moron on the planet. Rest assured, though, that you are certainly in the running.

Mixed Martial Arts (MMA) isn't bullshit or anything approximating "half-way decent". It's a very real sport with exceptional athletic talent who are highly trained in various disciplines ranging from amateur wrestling, Judo, jiu-jitsu, kick boxing, western boxing and more. Three of the disciplines I just mentioned, btw, are Olympic sports and it just so happens that fighters such as Matt Lindland (Silver Medlaist in Greco-Roman, 2000 Sydney Games), Hidehiko Yoshida (1992 Gold Medalist in Judo), Pawel Nastula (1996 Gold Medalist in Judo), Randy Couture (2x Olympic Alternate), Dan Henderson (2x Olympian in Greco-Roman) and Johnny Hendricks (3x NCAA National Champion Wrestler), Mark Hunt (K-1 World Champion), and Chael Sonnen (3x All-American NCAA Wrestler) all boast elite athletic accomplishments.

But don't believe. Come see for yourself. I invite you to come down to our gym, and come see how "bullshit" training and sparring in MMA really is. You seem to believe it's a whole lot of nothing, so I suspect you don't really mind getting on the mat and showing national champion wrestlers, world champion jiu-jitsu players and professional MMA fighters just how "bullshit" their sport really is.

Posted by Luke Thomas | March 13, 2008 9:38 AM

I think you guys need to embrace your inner Sully and watch some serious action here.

Posted by Beth in VA | March 13, 2008 9:48 AM

Spitzer = Clinton

Clinton = Spitzer

Posted by wilson | March 13, 2008 9:48 AM

Somehow, "step outside and say that again" doesn't work quite as well in the blogosphere.

Posted by Glenn | March 13, 2008 9:49 AM

"In the days when men carried 45s , you didn't have this Roman circus/bloodsport perversion."

See, e.g., http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_L._Sullivan

Posted by Bloix | March 13, 2008 9:53 AM

Please tell me the subject of this post is a riff on that terrible Chuck Norris movie, the Octagon? I desperately want to believe that I'm not the only one who's seen it.

Posted by Statler | March 13, 2008 10:00 AM

Just to add that people haven't been sticking knives in each others' kidneys on battlefields for quite some time - at least, not since modern firearms came along.
Also that the kidney isn't a great place to stick a knife. It's fairly deep inside the body, difficult to reach, fairly small, and won't kill the stickee very quickly. It does, however, have one advantage which might appeal to someone of Don Williams' (sorry) kidney: it's an easy place to reach when you're stabbing someone in the back.

Posted by ajay | March 13, 2008 10:02 AM

Just FYI, here's the tag from that movie:

"In a world of choices, for one man there is no choice . . . he must face THE OCTAGON."

It's about ninjas who set up a worldwide training camp for terrorists. The very same ninjas who killed Chuck Norris' closest friend.

As awesome as that sounds, it really is a joyless slog of a movie.

Posted by Statler | March 13, 2008 10:05 AM

I wouldn't be surprised if McCain sees these two forms of fighting through a moral lens resulting from his professional military background, as well as his particular military experiences.

For many military professionals of his generation, combat is to be waged according to strict rules. The honorable warrior, tough but also self-restraining, is the ideal. Aviators of his generation, I think, absorbed this outlook more than most -- from the air it's easier to see war as morally neat and tidy than it is from the ground. Until, of course, you find yourself *on* the ground, which McCain did, and gained intimate experience of warfare waged *outside* the rules, a war of atrocity and degradation and dishonor.

We all know sport is a metaphor for combat, fighting sports most of all. Boxing has a long-standing reputation as a strictly rule-bound sport -- 'Marquess of Queensbury' and all that even giving it an aristocratic veneer. Recreational boxing was big in the navy in McCain's day.

Ultimate fighting, by contrast, has an image (incorrect, I think) as a sport where 'anything goes', where there are no rules, where winning by any means necessary is the goal. It's not hard to see why someone of McCain's background would be instinctively repulsed by such a thing.

And yes, I'm speculating. I don't know the man. But I'm related to men of a similar background and I know the general worldview.

Posted by Ryan | March 13, 2008 10:06 AM

No one has even been seriously injured at the UFC.

Not in the UFC proper, but there have been some serious injuries in other events, including at least two broken backs. It's really just a matter of time before it happens in the UFC. But then, there are serious injuries every year in football, hockey, NASCAR, and a host of other sports, too.

Posted by apostropher | March 13, 2008 10:08 AM

For many military professionals of his generation, combat is to be waged according to strict rules. The honorable warrior, tough but also self-restraining, is the ideal. Aviators of his generation, I think, absorbed this outlook more than most

Whaaaat? Sorry, am I missing the immense irony involved here? McCain's generation of aviators were the heirs to the 'strategic bombing' approach of Curtis LeMay. They were tasked, in time of world war, with destroying enemy cities with thermonuclear weapons. In North Vietnam they bombed civilian targets such as Hanoi and Haiphong with no pretence of aiming for military targets - pure "terror bombing" intended to force the North Vietnamese to the negotiating table by killing enough civilians to sicken the leadership. In South Vietnam they used napalm, cluster munitions and immense amounts of conventional weaponry on civilians in the so-called "free fire zones". Need one go on?

Posted by ajay | March 13, 2008 10:12 AM

One correction: there has been a death in MMA fighting in the United States. Sam Vazquez died late last year from head injuries suffered in a low-level event (Renegades Extreme Fighting) in Houston.

That being said, MMA indeed has a much better safety record than boxing even when the lesser number of MMA matches is taken into account. The lighter gloves discourage hard punches to the head, and the availability of the tapout also helps prevent serious injuries by making it possible for overmatched or tired fighters to give up in a dignified manner. MMA referees also tend to be quick to stop fights if a fighter appears to be in trouble, and the lack of a mandatory 8-count also helps.

BTW, I've heard that McCain has softened his opposition to MMA.

Posted by Peter | March 13, 2008 10:16 AM

This stuff is all bullshit, anyway. Any half-way decent fighting method is too dangerous for sporting events.

Which is why different methods are used for sporting events. Do you object to paintball games because they don't use real ammunition? Do you refuse to see movies where the actors don't do their own stunts? Sometimes a less-risky stylized approach can be just as entertaining to do or to watch.

That's part of why many Japanese arts exists as a pairing of similar-sounding names -- judo and jujutsu, kendo and kenjutsu, aikido and aikijutsu. The budo approach can be said to emphasize philosophy, health, and contemplation, with the combat portion formalized into something more akin to a sport, while the bujutsu approach sticks more closely to the historical use and tends to support a more "anything goes" approach to combat. (Of course, this is Japanese, so there are dozens of other levels and interpretations involved, many of which I'm no doubt not even aware of, so it's possible that I've overgeneralized or missed the point entirely.)

In the days when men carried 45s , you didn't have this Roman circus/bloodsport perversion.

You most assuredly did! In the middle and late 19th century, boxers like "Gentleman" Jim Corbett, John L. Sullivan, and Jake Kilrain were huge draws among western frontiersmen. The famous "hanging judge" Roy Bean himself organized a title bout on an island in the Rio Grande. At the time of the introduction of the Colt M1911, the heavyweight boxing champion of the world was Jack "the Galveston Giant" Johnson, who had defeated James "The Great White Hope" Jeffries (the original "Great White Hope") for the title in what was called the "Fight of the Century," a matchup that so many people wanted to see that a new venue had to be constructed to hold the crowds. Johnson, despite being the "bad guy" in the mainstream narrative of the time, nevertheless became so famous that he received endorsement offers outpacing anything offered to boxers today.

Posted by cminus | March 13, 2008 10:20 AM

Please tell me the subject of this post is a riff on that terrible Chuck Norris movie, the Octagon? I desperately want to believe that I'm not the only one who's seen it.

As awesome as that sounds, it really is a joyless slog of a movie.

Agreed. The reason to watch The Octagon is to discover what I did one late night when I stumbled across it on cable: Chuck Norris, in the last twenty-plus years, has made enormous strides as an actor. Yes, I'm being funny, but no, I'm not joking: the distance between the skill, nuance, and range of his performance as Walker, Texas Ranger and his performance in The Octagon is similar to the difference between the acting abilities of Paris Hilton and Laura Linney.

Posted by Quarterican | March 13, 2008 10:21 AM

Of course, I fumbled the analogy by inverting the order of things I was comparing. Point still stands, though. The dude got serious mileage out of his acting classes.

Posted by Quarterican | March 13, 2008 10:25 AM

Ultimate fighting, by contrast, has an image (incorrect, I think) as a sport where 'anything goes', where there are no rules, where winning by any means necessary is the goal.

You are quite right, the "anything goes" image is incorrect. Here is the UFC's list of prohibited actions, other MMA organizations are pretty similar:

1. Butting with the head.
2. Eye gouging of any kind.
3. Biting.
4. Hair pulling.
5. Fish hooking.
6. Groin attacks of any kind.
7. Putting a finger into any orifice or into any cut or laceration on an opponent.
8. Small joint manipulation.
9. Striking to the spine or the back of the head.
10. Striking downward using the point of the elbow.
11. Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation, grabbing the trachea.
12. Clawing, pinching or twisting the flesh.
13. Grabbing the clavicle.
14. Kicking the head of a grounded opponent.
15. Kneeing the head of a grounded opponent.
16. Stomping a grounded opponent.
17. Kicking to the kidney with the heel.
18. Spiking an opponent to the canvas on his head or neck.
19. Throwing an opponent out of the ring or fenced area.
20. Holding the shorts or gloves of an opponent.
21. Spitting at an opponent.
22. Engaging in an unsportsmanlike conduct that causes an injury to an opponent.
23. Holding the ropes or the fence.
24. Using abusive language in the ring or fenced area.
25. Attacking an opponent on or during the break.
26. Attacking an opponent who is under the care of the referee.
27. Attacking an opponent after the bell has sounded the end of the period of unarmed combat.
28. Flagrantly disregarding the instructions of the referee.
29. Timidity, including, without limitation, avoiding contact with an opponent, intentionally or consistently dropping the mouthpiece or faking an injury.
30. Interference by the corner.
31. Throwing in the towel during competition.

Posted by Peter | March 13, 2008 10:28 AM

Ajay,

I would note first that McCain was Navy, not Air Force, so what he is supposed to have learned from Curtis LeMay is not clear to me. Naval air power generally has tactical, not strategic, missions.

And of course the 'honorable warrior' thing is, to a considerable degree, crap. The point is the *self-image* of the man in question. My grandfather bombed German city centers to shit, but he'll still tell you he was surgically targeting munitions factories and military barracks. If you read his books you see McCain's self-image is shaped by a similar delusion which, in fairness, you see in a lot of veterans, grounded ultimately in a fervent need to convince yourself that you're a member of an honorable fraternity even if an objective observer would struggle to discern honor in how you fought.

Posted by Ryan | March 13, 2008 10:29 AM

Ultimate fighting, by contrast, has an image (incorrect, I think) as a sport where 'anything goes', where there are no rules, where winning by any means necessary is the goal.

You are quite right, the "anything goes" image is incorrect. Here is the UFC's list of prohibited actions, other MMA organizations are pretty similar:

1. Butting with the head.
2. Eye gouging of any kind.
3. Biting.
4. Hair pulling.
5. Fish hooking.
6. Groin attacks of any kind.
7. Putting a finger into any orifice or into any cut or laceration on an opponent.
8. Small joint manipulation.
9. Striking to the spine or the back of the head.
10. Striking downward using the point of the elbow.
11. Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation, grabbing the trachea.
12. Clawing, pinching or twisting the flesh.
13. Grabbing the clavicle.
14. Kicking the head of a grounded opponent.
15. Kneeing the head of a grounded opponent.
16. Stomping a grounded opponent.
17. Kicking to the kidney with the heel.
18. Spiking an opponent to the canvas on his head or neck.
19. Throwing an opponent out of the ring or fenced area.
20. Holding the shorts or gloves of an opponent.
21. Spitting at an opponent.
22. Engaging in an unsportsmanlike conduct that causes an injury to an opponent.
23. Holding the ropes or the fence.
24. Using abusive language in the ring or fenced area.
25. Attacking an opponent on or during the break.
26. Attacking an opponent who is under the care of the referee.
27. Attacking an opponent after the bell has sounded the end of the period of unarmed combat.
28. Flagrantly disregarding the instructions of the referee.
29. Timidity, including, without limitation, avoiding contact with an opponent, intentionally or consistently dropping the mouthpiece or faking an injury.
30. Interference by the corner.
31. Throwing in the towel during competition.

Posted by Peter | March 13, 2008 10:31 AM

Not mine, but appropriate:

Ok, little story for you all. I wonder if anybody can match it for sheer SHITE in the face of reality. True story.

Ok, in the cinema there's this lad who, well to say he was a friend of a friend would be going too far. More a hanger on of an acquaintance. Anyway, every social group will have one of these guys attached to it at some point. Small, weedy, boring. Talks about himself a LOT. If you are feeling charitable you could describe him as a Walter Mitty, if not he's just full of crap. Anyway. At the cinema waiting for a film to start and this lad, scrawny, greasy, boring, nobody quite knows who he is with or whose friend he is meant to be, launches into a monologue. I will quote it for you as close to verbatim as possible. One of the lads in this group is a boxer, really nice guy but tough as nails, almost went into boxing professionally but decided to study instead. Anyway the conversation has turned to his training regime and this other scrawny little bloke buts in;

"Yeah. People have no idea. It's all bullshit maaaaaan. I mean yeah, I could go to the gym, I could get biceps like this *makes gesture* and legs like this *another gesture*. i could get a six pack, no problem. But *drag on cigarette* what I have to do, is ask myself the question, do I want that? *ostentatious drag on cigarette, pause for dramatic effect*. The answer... is no. My body is a weapon. I mean, you get in a fight, what good is that? What people don't realise IS that say, say somebody comes at you with a knife. He's putting himself at an immediate disadvantage. What's he got? A knife. One weapon. I've got two fists, two legs, two knees, two elbows *indicates body parts in turn as though we didn't know where they are*. If he loses his knife, what's he got then? Take these bouncers at clubs. Sure, they look tough. Perhaps one of them could take me in a bar fight. *draw on cigarette* Perhaps. But I'd like to see how any of them could cope against me in "the octagon". I was in the city once, went into this bar. Looked normal from the outside but what I didn't know was it was a gangster bar. Guy behind the bar goes "get the fuck out of here" but I'm in no mood for shit so I tell him to get me a drink. He pulls this revolver from behind the bar and points it straight at me. I didn't sweat. Looked at the revolver, saw the safety was on. Looked him straight in the eyes and said "Are you going to serve me, or are you going to shoot me?" He pulls the trigger and it doesn't work cos of the safety and he keeps pulling the trigger but *drag on cigarette* I just keep my cool. Then, he puts his gun down and says "Hey man, you're cool man, ain't nothing scares you". *chuckles and shakes head* I got my drink. And THAT *draws on cigarette ostentatiously* is how I won the respect of the Yardies."

Several of us made our excuses and left. The rest of us were too astonished to say anything and just sat there staring while he sat in a haze of cigarette smoke looking smug. It was possibly the oddest ten minutes of my entire life.

Posted by mts | March 13, 2008 10:42 AM

Put this in the TMI re death and destruction but:
Ajay -- the kidneys is an optimum place to knife someone and likely to be fatal; this has to do with the neural network there, which is why kidney (rabbit) punches are so effective (and also illegal in boxing). This is kind of a silly topic. Boxing is an industry and involves lots of money, which I think is why it is so destructive.

Posted by RJ | March 13, 2008 10:56 AM

Ryan: fair point. I'm quite prepared to believe that McCain is deluded about the 'honour' of his war. And I wasn't aware that 'aviator' applied specifically to Navy pilots as opposed to Air Force - I thought you were making a point about the flying community in general. I would point out that, in Vietnam as elsewhere, the tactical/strategic air division was blurred; hitting a bridge was a job for fighter-bombers, which might well be Navy, but it's still a strategic target; while hitting an enemy formation in the field is a tactical move, but it could be done with a strategic weapon like a B-52.

mts: well, that story's obviously rubbish. As if a Yardie would ever use the safety catch on a weapon...

Posted by ajay | March 13, 2008 11:00 AM

McCain has since softened his stance on MMA.

"They have cleaned up the sport to the point, at least in my view, where it is not human cockfighting any more. I think they've made significant progress. They haven't made me a fan, but they have made progress," McCain tells NPR.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=13901908

Posted by john | March 13, 2008 11:17 AM

Ajay,

And I wasn't aware that 'aviator' applied specifically to Navy pilots as opposed to Air Force - I thought you were making a point about the flying community in general.

You're right, the term's not specific to navy, and I was making a point about the flying community in general. But LeMay's SAC was a breed apart, an exception to general patterns, which is why I didn't bring it up. They're not part of McCain's cultural pedigree. SAC cultivated an image of stone-cold technicians rather than honorable warriors as was the historical norm for flyers.

I was trying to keep my post short, and not make an academic treatise out of it. You were right to point out exceptions and qualifications. But the general pattern still holds, I think. An ideal of honorable combat was very strongly internalized among many military professionals of McCain's generation, and especially among those who flew. And boxing, in the eyes of many men of that same generation, epitomizes honorable combat in a way that ultimate fighting does not.

Posted by Ryan | March 13, 2008 11:26 AM

If these oafs went up against a real fighter, they would be down in two seconds: their knee joint shattered by a kick and their windpipe crushed by a punch. Plus cranial bleeding from a kick to their temple.

My god this is one of the stupidest, most uninformed things I've ever read.

Posted by libarbarian | March 13, 2008 11:42 AM

This stuff is all bullshit, anyway. Any half-way decent fighting method is too dangerous for sporting events.

Only someone who has never trained and gets all their knowledge from kung-fu movies could say something so mindbogglingly wrong.

"Secret Death Moves" that cannot be performed safely in practice cannot be practiced. The idea that, in the heat of combat, you can reliably execute a move that you have never actually practiced in a realistic environment is laughable something that only a person who has never actually fought could fool themselves into thinking. I know - because it was also what I used to think when I was 13 and liked Van Damme movies.

Real fights are sweaty, messy, and fast. You have to revert to the techniques that you have practiced over and over until you can perform them even under intense stress. Feel free to learn your cool "killer techniques" and walk around thinking you can defend yourself but you will be sorely disappointed.

Posted by libarbarian | March 13, 2008 11:52 AM

This stuff is all bullshit, anyway. Any half-way decent fighting method is too dangerous for sporting events.

Only someone who has never trained and gets all their knowledge from kung-fu movies could say something so mindbogglingly wrong.

"Secret Death Moves" that cannot be performed safely in practice cannot be practiced. The idea that, in the heat of combat, you can reliably execute a move that you have never actually practiced in a realistic environment is something that only a person who has never actually fought could fool themselves into thinking. I know - because it was also what I used to think when I was 13 and liked Van Damme movies.

Real fights are sweaty, messy, and fast. You have to revert to the techniques that you have practiced over and over until you can perform them even under intense stress. Feel free to learn your cool "killer techniques" and walk around thinking you can defend yourself but you will be sorely disappointed.

Posted by libarbarian | March 13, 2008 11:52 AM

"Actually, prizefighting was a big sport in the 19th Century, although many cities and states tried banning it."

Wyatt Earp and Bat Masterson, both whom were known to use those .45s, earned their livings as an a referee and a boxing writer at different times.

Posted by witless chum | March 13, 2008 11:54 AM

As a fan of both boxing and MMA I have to say that McCain's position is ridiculous. Some MMA fighters have died in smaller shows and in less regulated countries. But the UFC has a clean record thus far.....though it's bound to happen at some point.

The larger point though is that the UFC is not a whole lot different than boxing. What I mean is, to the untrained eye, boxing is merely two guys (or gals nowadays) beating the shit out of each other. Once you watch it enough though, you learn the nuances of the sport and recognize the skill involved, and can appreciate it for the sport that it is.

The same goes for MMA. Seeing two guys (or gals nowadays) fighting each other in a cage with little protection and seemingly little rules can lead to claims that it's nothing more than a glorified bar fight. The truth is that, like boxing, there's a lot more going on than it first appears. The amount of training that is involved, and the skill that is on display is incredible.

These guys, most of them anyway, have dedicated their lives to martial arts. Remember doing Judo (or Kung Fu, or Karate) as a kid? Well a lot of these fighters did exactly that, and continue to do it. MMA fights are basically putting all those lessons to the test, discovering what style, or combination of styles actually works best, and then evolving as a fighter.

MMA features Olympic champions in many combat sports like Judo and Wrestling. Once these guys are done with their college or Olympic careers, what are they supposed to do, get a "real" job? Maybe, but MMA organizations like the UFC gives them the option to continue doing something they love for a nice deal of money.

Posted by Joe | March 13, 2008 12:07 PM

I didn't like McCain's moralizing about the UFC back in the 1990's, but it turned out that his influence made MMA a much better (and more popular and more profitable) sport.

Go back and look at video from the first couple of UFC competitions and it was nothing like today: no gloves, no weight classes, no rounds, and, perhaps most important, competitors who had no business being in the ring. Soi disant masters in Ninjitsu, or traditional karate were bloodied to a pulp.

Today, MMA is an exciting and competitive sport, and is less dangerous than boxing.

Posted by Fred | March 13, 2008 12:22 PM

McCain, like Clinton, has a little too much reverence for his own moral intuitions. The idea that he might, you know, be wrong about something doesn't seem to cross his mind once it's made up.
We're in the 8th year of a president who's dogged like that -- it hasn't gone well.

As Obama said about Nader: "He seems to have a pretty high opinion of his own work."

Posted by Ban Johnson | March 13, 2008 12:23 PM

Nobody has cleared up the confusion about the "Octagon" raised by Statler at 10:00am. This post is not named after a 1980 Chuck Norris movie. The Octagon is the name for the ring that UFC uses.

Posted by nbt | March 13, 2008 12:24 PM

"I know what you're asking yourself, and the answer is ,yes, I have a nickname for my penis. Its called the Octagon. But I also nicknamed my testes. The left one is James Westphal, and the right one is Dr. Kenneth Noisewater. You ladies play your cards right, you just might get to meet the whole gang." -- Brian Fantana

Posted by David B. | March 13, 2008 12:39 PM

Re "You are quite right, the "anything goes" image is incorrect. Here is the UFC's list of prohibited actions, other MMA organizations are pretty similar:

1. Butting with the head.
2. Eye gouging of any kind.
...
6. Groin attacks of any kind.
...
8. Small joint manipulation.
9. Striking to the spine or the back of the head.
10. Striking downward using the point of the elbow.
11. Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation, grabbing the trachea.
...
14. Kicking the head of a grounded opponent.
...
16. Stomping a grounded opponent.
17. Kicking to the kidney with the heel.
...
22. Engaging in an unsportsmanlike conduct that causes an injury to an opponent. "
------------
Like I said -- UFC is a bullshit sport which works only by deleting all realism from fighting.
What's left is a Kubuki dance.

Posted by Don Williams | March 13, 2008 2:20 PM

1) I would note that if you looked at people who engage in REAL combat, you see that they spend about 3 to 4 days in training on hand to hand fighting:

a) CIA Case Officer Lindsay Moran, in discussing the CIA Clandestine Service's 9 month training program , indicated that the training included only a week of hand to hand combat. Really , only 2 1/2 days since the evenings were spent on teaching medical care, advanced first aid. See her book "Blowing My Cover".

b) Several accounts of Navy Seal Training I've seen indicate that about 5 days is spent on hand to hand combat --in the course of two years of training. Part of the training is police-like methods to subdue a prisoner --based upon your partner holding a gun on the suspect while you try to handcuff him.

c) A look at Army or Marine training similarly shows only a few days spent on hand to hand combat over the course of nine months of training.

d) The police, I think, spent a little more time on hand to hand combat because they have a much more difficult job -- maintaining officer safety while subduing violent and dangerous criminals with only the legally supported use of force.

e)Needless to say, any of the above people could easily deal with a UFC fighter.

Posted by Don Williams | March 13, 2008 2:34 PM

Don,

As it happens, when I took MMA, one of the students in my class had been in the US Marines and another was in the California Highway Patrol. Both of them were a little better than me, someone who had taken Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu for a year or two, and substantially less good than one of my classmates, who had been a reasonably good high school wrestler. Neither of the was even remotely as good as our instructor, a professional MMA athlete. I assure you that the issue was not that there were some secret killing blow that they weren't allowed to use.

Obviously, that doesn't mean that I would have wanted to go up against them in a gunfight, but it's simply not true that the kind of hand-to-hand combat that military and law enforcement personnel rates them against even halfway decent MMA athletes.

Posted by EKR | March 13, 2008 2:45 PM

Re EKR's comment "Obviously, that doesn't mean that I would have wanted to go up against them in a gunfight, but it's simply not true that the kind of hand-to-hand combat that military and law enforcement personnel rates them against even halfway decent MMA athletes."
-----------
But that's the point: a sport develops a fighter constrained by the mindset that there are rules -- acceptable PATTERNs of attack and defense -- whereas there are none in a real fight.

Rule one being that you are not entitled to use force unless your life or the life of an innocent bystander is in danger. Rule two being to then draw a handgun and shoot the aggressor.

Police will tell you that it's extremely dangerous to let a violent person get closer than 15 feet --even if you are armed with a powerful handgun. It's moronic to engage in Marquis of Queensbury fisticuffs with an aggressor -- he may well draw a concealed pocketknife across your carotid artery while you are bobbing and weaving.

PS To my examples above, I will add another: The BRitish Special Operations Executive (SOE) --their WWII Terrorist cadre -- spent about 1 week on Hand to Hand combat training. 1 of the 6 periods, of that week was spent on taking prisoners --something which SOE generally discouraged.

Posted by Don Williams | March 13, 2008 3:07 PM

Well, Don still has a point. There are a lot of things banned in MMA bounts. (As opposed to, say, ancient Greek pankration; IIRC the only thing they banned way eye gouging).

Not sure what the point of the point is, though. It's a defined sport with defined rules, sure. You got a problem with that?

Posted by AlanC9 | March 13, 2008 3:18 PM

Ok, so wait...is the argument from Don that MMA is not deadly enough?? I thought this thread was about the merits of it being a sport like boxing.

This talk of Marines and Seals being more deadly is bizarre...

Posted by Joe | March 13, 2008 3:34 PM

1) The point is that UFC , WWF, etc reflect the George W Bush mindset -- a swaggering, blustering bully who deserves to be exposed to a tiny taste of real combat as a check on a vicious ego.

2) That's why UFC , WWF are popular with the George Bush red state crowd -- the group that shits on the rest of the world, which causes the deaths of untold number of children and women and which then claims to wear the white hat in a staggering display of staged hypocrisy. Which bleats that the "Terrorists don't fight fair" and asks "Why do they hate us?" -- when the answers fucking clear to anyone who's not a moron.

3) I deeply respect Army soldiers and Marines. That is why I have contempt for "athletes" who get rich by pretending to be "warriors". Anyone who has ever buried a friend knows that combat . aggression , and war is something to be avoided if possible-- not glorified

4) If you don't see that the vicious, self-serving cowardly aggression of the George W Bush crowd is fed by these sports, then you aren't paying attention. The entire Bush Administration has been one long WWF staging of fake combat.

Posted by Don Williams | March 13, 2008 3:49 PM

Don Williams, you say Kabuki dance like it's a bad thing.

It's about ninjas who set up a worldwide training camp for terrorists. The very same ninjas who killed Chuck Norris' closest friend.

Hey, I kind of liked that movie when it was called Bloodsport.

Posted by Persia | March 13, 2008 3:59 PM

UFC and WWF are part of the Republican deceit machine. They have fake warriors -- just as they have fake patriots, fake news, fake preachers, fake intellectuals, and fake politicians.

Why is anyone surprised that we ended up with a fake President with a fake budget and fake intelligence?

Leaving us with an all too real dead, debt, and war.

Go and watch a WWF match on TV sometime. Noticed the prolonged blustering and posturing leading up to the match. Then go back and review George W Bush and Dick Cheney newscasts in the leadup to the Iraq war.

Our media culture celebrates and rewards the showy fake -- and disparges the real and virtuous. I spit on it.

Posted by Don Williams | March 13, 2008 4:24 PM

I have several friends over for "Movie Night" once a week. We'll usually watch a few minutes of some terrible movie before watching something good. One week we kicked things off with The Octagon since that was a friends favorite movie from when he was a 12 year old kid. Probably second only to Shaolin Dolemite for the worst movie of all time. Chuck Norris was so bad in that movie that he made Keanu Reeves look like Daniel Day Lewis. It makes my head spin just thinking about it.

Posted by Dan | March 13, 2008 5:16 PM

Don: I deeply respect Army soldiers and Marines. That is why I have contempt for "athletes" who get rich by pretending to be "warriors".

I must say I don't get it. Sure, lots of red neck Bush-lovers may watch it, but who cares? That has nothing to do with whether it is a legitimate sport. By that measure football is "fake" as well and football players need to be exposed to real combat to teach them a lesson....wtf?

Hell, most MMA fighters aren't even American. The best in the biz right now is Fedor Emelianenko, a Russian. And a large contingent of the best fighters come from Brazil (Wanderlei Silva, Anderson Silva, the Nogueiras, the Ruas, etc). Other high-profile fighters are Mark Hunt (New Zealand), Mirko Filipovic (Croatia), Geoges St Pierre (Canada), and Karo Parisian (Armenian). And there's also a lot of Japanese fighters (Gomi, Kondo, Sakuraba, Fujita etc.), and the Japanese love MMA (IMO Pride was much better than the UFC).

It truly is an international sport which is why it seems so bizarre to hear it being tied to Bush supporters.

Posted by Joe | March 13, 2008 6:37 PM

Go and watch a WWF match on TV sometime.

Ah ha! Don has got mixed martial arts confused with professional wrestling. If you realize his comments are intended for someone like Stone Cold Steve Austin, they make a lot more sense.

Posted by lemuel pitkin | March 13, 2008 7:11 PM

UFC and WWF are part of the Republican deceit machine. They have fake warriors -- just as they have fake patriots, fake news, fake preachers, fake intellectuals, and fake politicians.

As much as the Spam company tries, they simply do not produce real meat product. Spam tastes like chicken to many people who buy it as a meat substitute but in reality they're getting that - a substitute. Spam is a watered down version of meat that is simply not authentic. Spam is part of the Bush administration deceit machine by giving us a watered down version of meat. Slowly we accept a watered down version of meat and over time we accept the watered down version of government the Bush administration delivers. Spam is part of the plot. Do not eat Spam.

You see what I did there, Don? I picked something random that I could in some way relate to the current administration and instead of saying it's "similar to" I said that it's directly a "part of." That's pretty similar to what you did, genius.

Look, mixed martial arts is a sport. A sport where two guys get inside of a cage and fight, albeit with some rules for safety, and there is then declared a winner. It's a sport for entertainment. It is not a government conspiracy.

Personally, Don, I think you might be a terrorist. You are in here talking about the United States government as if it is the anti-Christ and also blasphemizing (is that a word?) two huge parts of Americana: prize fighting and professional wrestling. I bet you think baseball was created by aliens and cable TV is broadcast straight from hell. It's an athletic competition that many people watch for entertainment, not a government conspiracy.

As for the guy talking about how MMA is a "bullshit sport that takes away all realism from fighting." Lacrosse was original started by the Native Americans in which a guy would run around a field with a small ball in his mouth and other Injuns smacked him in the back of the head with sticks to knock the ball out before someone else picked it up. Since then we added a few more rules to the game to keep it entertaining but turn it into a legitimate athletic competition instead of organized attempted murder. Go down to an MMA gym and tell them that their sport is for pussies. I bet you'll get the bonecracking realism you seek, douche bag.

Posted by Shawn | March 13, 2008 9:32 PM

Don Williams,

Your attempts to claim that MMA is part of a "Republican Deceit Machine" are an example of Bush Derangement Syndrome. The UFC goes back to 1994 in the U.S. It's origins go back to Gracie family Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu in the early 20th Century.

Also, your claim that "secret death moves" would take out an experienced MMA fighter on the street are nonsense. Just because some techniques are against the rules in MMA doesn't mean that those MMA fighters would stupidly bound themselves to those rules on the street. And many MMA fighters are skilled in one or more martial arts aside from MMA. In hand-to-hand street fighting, the odds are, they'd kick pretty much anyone's ass. Thai boxers might be tougher, but if the fight went to the ground they'd be screwed.

Re: The Octagon, A better Chuck Norris movie from back in the day is A Force of One with Bill "Super Foot" Wallace as his nemesis and Jennifer O'Neil as his love interest.

Posted by Fred | March 13, 2008 9:55 PM

Dan,

I thought I was the only one who ever saw Shaolin Dolemite.

Posted by adlsad | March 13, 2008 10:54 PM

Shaolin Dolemite makes Black Samurai look like an Academy Award Winner.

Posted by adlsad | March 13, 2008 10:59 PM

"The Octagon" was good for one reason and one reason only - well, two reasons, actually: 1) Lee Van Cleef, a pro actor; 2) Tadashi Yamashita, who really is an expert in karate.

The reason it was really bad was Karen Carlson - probably the worst actress in Hollywood next to Raquel Welch. Of course, Chuckles didn't help. And whoever wrote the dialog was a hack Hollywood writer.

"Force of One" wasn't bad, it had a bit of a better cast, but still wasn't tops. The best Chuck Norris movie ever made was hands down "Lone Wolf McQuade".

Now, let's deal with martial arts, and MMA.

There are two kinds of martial arts: sport martial arts and war arts. Originally, most martial arts were war arts - meaning you learned how to kill people quickly and efficiently while not getting killed yourself. This is true in Japan, Malaysia, Thailand, Indonesia, South America, everywhere. Almost no martial art originally developed as a sport.

Over time, they were modified and developed into sports. Judo derived from jiu-jitsu, for example, in the late 19th and early 20th century. Karate and its variations also came to be sports only in the 20th Century.

At the higher levels of any martial art, the difference between sport and combat get a little blurred, as any master is likely to be so good as to be effective against your average street fighter.

The question of effectiveness is for those below that level.

Togakure-ryu ninjutsu is a "war art". Pentjak-silat is a "war art". There are others. Even Bruce Lee's "Jeet-Kune-Do" could be considered a "war art" due to its emphasis on simplicity and efficiency, despite being late in development in the last century.

The fact that the military spends little time training people in hand-to-hand combat simply proves what I've said for some time - people in the military are cannon fodder. They're not expected to deal in hand to hand combat. They're expected to either "have it" or not "have it" in them to deal with physical fighting.

None the less, in Special Forces, they do spend a certain amount of time studying hand to hand combat. In fact, they have had pilot programs in possibly including Togakure-ryu ninjutsu into their system. They've also had programs involving Korean martial arts.

The Russians have something called "systema" which they apparently taught to their Spetznaz Special Forces.

The athletes who perform in MMA are highly trained against multiple martial arts systems. They are in excellent physical condition and have a fighting spirit. They would do well against a street fighter or conventional soldier, especially since most of them have learned multiple systems of martial arts and thus are not limited to a single repertoire of moves - which is the most serious criticism one can make against most individual martial arts systems, especially the ones created in the 20th Century.

So Don is correct in that anyone trained in a SPORT martial art and who has not reached a high level in that art is likely to be constrained and at a disadvantage in a real fight. Where he is wrong is assuming that all martial arts is like that, and specifically that the MMA professionals - or at least many of them - couldn't "rise to the occasion" in a real fight.

And I think his notion that UFC is somehow a "Bush fake" thing is way off base. Pro wrestling has been fake for years. Even boxing has its fake moments. UFC is probably the least fake of these sports.

I was surprised by the list of moves that are out of bounds, however. I would have assumed the list is much shorter than that. But then I haven't watched UFC stuff for the last ten years, only some of the videos from the earlier years when I think the rules list was shorter. Back when the Gracies were dominating the game, the fights seemed to me to be pretty rough. I remember Royce Gracie had to throw in the towel before one fight because he was exhausted from his previous fight that had gone on for a full half hour or more. He'd taken quite a bit of punishment from his opponent as well.

Posted by Richard Steven Hack | March 14, 2008 4:09 AM

UFC as part of the republican deceit machine? A person with 1 week of "secret death move" training can take out any MMA fighter?

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHAHAHAHAH Holy shit. You've got to be kidding right? I was in the Army. I went through basic training in '02 a Ft. Benning GA. Can you take a wild guess as to the "secret death moves" that we learned for hand to hand combat? Gracie Jujitsu (the Gracies started the UFC by the way). Yes, the Army's secret death moves can be seen at every UFC event.

The reason why special forces, military and police are so deadly is because they use guns. Not because they go to secret ninja camps to learn death pinches or something like that. Unarmed members of the military, spec ops, police, etc would be crushed in a street fight against any professional MMA athlete.

Now, I'm not a fan of our president. I'm also used to far right nutballs calling everything a liberal conspiracy, but you my friend take the cake. "UFC = republican deceit machine?" Holy smokes! I knew there were lunatics with mind-blowingly stupid conspiracy theories, but you've just set a new standard. Bravo buddy! The far right is going to have to dig real deep to come up with something even half as crazy as that.

Posted by Lipsore | March 14, 2008 5:27 AM

"So Don is correct in that anyone trained in a SPORT martial art and who has not reached a high level in that art is likely to be constrained and at a disadvantage in a real fight."

Richard, this might sound correct in theory... however, in actuality, even a person with minimal training in a "sport" art would mop the floor with a so-called "war" art practitioner, or in a street fight. How you ask?

The reason "sport" arts work is because practitioners use techniques full power, on a live, resisting opponent. "War" arts that rely on moves like groin strikes, eye gouging, pressure points, biting, fish hooking and who knows what else are TOTALLY INEFFECTIVE because they are not practiced at full power on a live, resisting opponent.

The moves might work when the master does them on the student, and they may even LOOK like they would work in real combat... but I assure you, they don't.

Furthermore, any alleged applicability of these moves would be delivered with far more precision and frequency by "sport" art practitioners, because of their superior positioning ability.

Anything not forbidden by the Unified rules of MMA that was actually effective would be used. That's the beauty of the sport, use whatever works. It's NOT illegal to do stupid JKD wing chun trapping, yet no one uses it. It's not illegal to do a standing Silat arm break (or something...), yet no one does. If you really want to see these "war" arts in an MMA setting, just go watch UFC 1-5. You'll see what happens.

And in case you want to make the argument that those weren't real practitioners, or weren't the best examples, I simply ask: where are these "war" art practitioners now? If they would waltz into MMA and defeat everyone, make a ton of cash, bring a lot of honor to their art... whey aren't they doing it? My favorite excuse is that MMA is unhonorable, and senseis won't allow their students to compete... ha, yeah don't actually use these death moves, someone could die!

Posted by Ryan | March 14, 2008 11:28 AM

Macainwas right when he wanted to ban MMA...It was a joke,and dangerous to fighters..no ref`s worth a shit..no weight classes,and very little rules. it wasnt sactioned right,and it wasnt really worth a shit..soooo....you whinny bitch,realize. Dana White just did what was right for MMA. Getting it legit..and it`s the same thing Macain an American Hero wanted all the time..

Posted by reagan | March 14, 2008 5:54 PM

Macainwas right when he wanted to ban MMA...It was a joke,and dangerous to fighters..no ref`s worth a shit..no weight classes,and very little rules. it wasnt sactioned right,and it wasnt really worth a shit..soooo....you whinney bitch,realize. Dana White just did what was right for MMA. Getting it legit..and it`s the same thing Macain an American Hero wanted all the time..

Posted by reagan | March 14, 2008 5:54 PM

e)Needless to say, any of the above people could easily deal with a UFC fighter.
Posted by Don Williams

As someone who trains weekly in martial arts with a cop who walks the beat in a large Northern CA city, let me just tell you that statement is fals. My training partner is 5'8" and 230 pounds of muscle and has expressed concern several times specifically about how to defend against ju-juitsu style attacks. And given the origin of UFC and the domination of brazilian ju-juitsu fighters, virtualy all MMA now know a fair amount of that art. Real cop, real concern.

Posted by Edo | March 14, 2008 6:50 PM

reagan,

Dana White just did what was right for MMA. Getting it legit..and it`s the same thing Macain an American Hero wanted all the time..

Banning is the same thing as sanctioning? what color is the sky in your "reality"?

Posted by Edo | March 14, 2008 6:57 PM

I'm not advocating John McCain in any way here but what I will say is that John McCain was banning the MMA seen in the original UFC events; the UFC events with no legitimate rules. So while John McCain was just being a political pussy and saying "mer mer it's human cockfighting" he wound up unintentionally being the catalyst that got the sanctioning ball rolling. He wanted to kill MMA but the sport would not die and instead began sanctioning itself to stay alive and thus McCain's plan backfired and MMA is stronger than it's ever been. McCain was trying to ban a sport that's different than the one we know today.

Posted by Shawn | March 14, 2008 7:51 PM