More Pizza

Some further notes on the perennially controversial issue of pizza:

Whatever an NYC pizza lover may say in virtue of my hometown's best pies, there's also no denying that NYC has a staggering quantity of terrible by-the-slice outlets. Meanwhile, one should not overlook the fact that New York's Italian-American population has largely decamped to the suburbs at this point and brought a lot of good pizza with them (I would guess that Rhode Island, which is filled with the right kind of people, has good pizza, but I've never had the chance to test this theory out).

By the same token, while Ezra Klein is right to note that some good pizza is now available in DC, it tends to be a very different kettle of fish -- more "gourmet," less rooted kind of thing -- largely owing to the district's lack of Italian-American heritage.

Last, one shouldn't neglect the fact that the pizza in Italy seemed better to me than the pizza here; I was going to random places without any real insight or know-how and stumbling across tons of great pies. In general, there are better ingredients available in Europe, but cheaper labor available in the U.S. so we do well with really labor-intensive foods but pizza is much closer to the ingredients side of the scale.

Comments

Matt, repeat after me: DiFara's, DiFara's, DiFaras.

The Q-train to Avenue J, walk down the steps from the el -- I think it's on the corner of East 14th Street, across from the kosher bakeries. The dude grows the oregano in a windowbox.

Posted by BryklynLibrul | March 13, 2008 5:27 PM

There is no such thing as good NY pizza.

You need to go to Italy or Chicago.

NY pizza. Yuck.

And you should never call it a pie. Pies are made with fruit.

Posted by michaelweaselo | March 13, 2008 5:29 PM

DiFaras is overrated.

Rhode Island pizza really is its own breed, just like Rhode Island accents and Rhode Islanders generally.

Posted by phil | March 13, 2008 5:30 PM

There is only one city where you can get real pizza, and that is Chicago.

That tasteless giant soda cracker with ketchup on it that new yorkers call pizza is not pizza.

Posted by jerry 101 | March 13, 2008 5:32 PM

About Italians in the burbs - when my family moved to northern NJ in the 80s, we couldn't believe how bad the pizza was. Our theory was that the good places stayed in the City, while the bad ones pushed out. Perhaps this should be amended to "in or near" the City - we were 40-odd miles out. Maybe Bloomfield has great pizza?

Actually, I think my overall theory is that pizza is so inherently satisfying (hits all the food groups, most of the taste buds, etc) and so hard to completely screw up (IME, all Italian-run pizzerias have at least tolerable crusts - better than any chain's) that nothing drives out the mediocre pizzeria. If I'm walking down the street and can get a slice for $2, I'm almost always going to end up satisfied, if not actually happy. This isn't true for a lot of other cheap foods (hot dogs are an exception, but the dogs themselves are factory-made, so not comparable). Lots of shitty burgers, Chinese, etc. out there....

Posted by JRoth | March 13, 2008 5:32 PM

You gotta put Chicago deep dish pizza on that list.

I love NY pizza, but Chicago pizza hits the spot MMMMMMMM.

Posted by Jen | March 13, 2008 5:34 PM

I would guess that Rhode Island, which is filled with the right kind of people, has good pizza, but I've never had the chance to test this theory out.

Uncle Tony's. East Providence. Tasty square pies.

Posted by Philly | March 13, 2008 5:34 PM

"Blah blah, we're provincials."

Geez, guys, give it up. There are lots of different styles of pizzas. Repeat after me: "Not better or worse, just different."

FWIW, I'd say NY pies are great for lunch or a late bite; Chicago, "Sicilian," or other thicker pizzas are more dinner. And gourmet/authentic Italian work for either, but I don't want exclusively them. If I had to pick one for the rest of my life, I'd likely go with a NY, crisp crust, slightly spicy sauce. But that's just how I was raised.

Posted by JRoth | March 13, 2008 5:39 PM

I'm not convinced density of Italian ethnics directly correlates to 'good' pizza. True, New York, Philly, Pittsburgh, Providence, and a handful of other Eastern cities with a lot of early 20th Century Italian immigration espouse a similar ethos when it comes to pizza. But San Francisco and Kansas City experienced the same thing and, I gotta tell you, your typical corner pizzeria in San Fran produces an entirely different sort of pie. American regional food trends tend to reflect the interplay between ethnicities more than any one in particular. Witness: Southwestern, creole, soul food and so forth. Local ingredients mattered too. Terrior encouraged different choices.

Posted by RoboticGhost | March 13, 2008 5:44 PM

I was going to random places without any real insight or know-how and stumbling across tons of great pies. In general, there are better ingredients available in Europe, but cheaper labor available in the U.S. so we do well with really labor-intensive foods but pizza is much closer to the ingredients side of the scale.

This paragraph brought to you by the letters C, O, W, E, and N.

Posted by washerdreyer | March 13, 2008 5:45 PM

I personally think that Americans do pizza better than anywhere in the world. The country of origin is often not the best place to procure a particular food item.

Posted by Freddie | March 13, 2008 5:45 PM

I live in Baltimore and it is a mighty struggle to find good pizza around here.

Thought you guys should know, in case there are any folks with the capital and the inclination to open a quality pizza outlet in the Towson area.

Posted by Jeff | March 13, 2008 5:46 PM

Labor may be more expensive in Europe, but that doesn't explain why good food is so cheap there; not just at the low end like pizza, but also in the medium and upscale gourmet eateries as well.

Posted by scott | March 13, 2008 5:46 PM

I have never lived in Chicago but have family there -- who originally from Kentucky doesn't -- and travel there regularly, and nothing beats the deep-dish Chicago pizzas.

Posted by spencer | March 13, 2008 5:47 PM

The pizza I had in Italy seemed to have very liquidy cheese. I like NY pizza much better.

Posted by nbt | March 13, 2008 5:49 PM

DiFara's most definitely is NOT overrated. That's a step above every other place I've been. Lombardi's and John's are also up there, although I think people overrate the average slice in NYC out of nostalgia. There's good pizza at the best places, but the average pizza in NYC sucks.

People often like to say San Francisco doesn't do pizza, but they've got their own style that's really good. Pizzetta 211, CoCo 500 and Piccino all have some seriously good pizza, and Little Star is the best deep dish I've had. You can't beat California's access to awesome tomatoes for the sauce.

Posted by How Insane Is John McCain? | March 13, 2008 5:50 PM

I should probably know better than to address the economics of Italian restaurants, but what is the evidence for "labor" being more expensive there? Particularly when the restaurants tend to run in the family. I wouldn't exactly estimate the labor cost of Chinese restaurant in the US by using the local figures from the BLS.

Scott's comment on good food being cheaper in Europe is very much to the point -- but ya shoulda been there forty years ago!

By the way, I once handled the Pizza Atomica in Naples, but I have to confess I wasn't man enough to eat the fish eyes.

Posted by Gene O'Grady | March 13, 2008 5:53 PM

You can get extremely good pizza almost anywhere in Rhode Island but Cacerta's and LaSalle Bakery in Providence are a cut above. Certa's By The Sea in Narragansett is outstanding if you're down at the beach.

Posted by pinson | March 13, 2008 5:53 PM

You know, I found all the pizza I ate in Italy to be pretty good, but none of it was any better than the average slice I could get in Toronto.

Posted by Nav | March 13, 2008 5:54 PM

I second Matt's point about there being some great places, but TONS of bad places. The same can be said about NYC bagels--yes, the best here are the best anywhere, but there are lots of crappy bagels in NYC, too.

And, as a former Chicagoan, I am happy that Lou Malnati's ships nationwide!

Posted by Goldberg | March 13, 2008 5:55 PM

The economy is crashing into the abyss after 8 years of Bush misrule and Matthew can only say "Let them eat pizza".

Wonder how secure Atlantic blogging jobs are in a Depression. Light entertainment did well in the 1930s , as I recall. People wanted to escape the all too real doom and gloom into fantasy.

Wonder when Mel Brooks is coming out with his next movie?

"Germany was having trouble
What a sad, sad story
Needed a new leader to restore
Its former glory
Where, oh, where was he?
Where could that man be?
We looked around and then we found
The man for you and me
LEAD TENOR STORMTROOPER:
And now it's...
Springtime for Hitler and Germany
Deutschland is happy and gay!
We're marching to a faster pace
Look out, here comes the master race!
Springtime for Hitler and Germany
Rhineland's a fine land once more!
Springtime for Hitler and Germany
Watch out, Europe
We're going on tour!
Springtime for Hitler and Germany... "

Posted by Don Williams | March 13, 2008 5:58 PM

(I would guess that Rhode Island, which is filled with the right kind of people, has good pizza, but I've never had the chance to test this theory out)

When I was in college, Casserta's, on Federal Hill, was great. It came in large rectangular trays in which you got squares - similar to sicilian slices in NYC. But that was a while ago; I haven't been back in years. I understand that the pizza in RI 'burbs - places like Warwick - is good too, but we never had much of a reason to go out that far back then.

In general, the pizza in the NYC suburbs is perfectly good. Often better than any Famous Original Ray's, but not up to the standards of the best in the City. If you consider Staten Island the suburbs (well, even if you don't), Joe & Pat's is great.

Posted by Al | March 13, 2008 6:02 PM

Matt,

If you think Italian Pizza is good, you really have to go to Buenos Aires, Argentina and try the local wares.

P.S. Argentina's Italian-origin population is SUBSTANTIAL.

Posted by JRVJ | March 13, 2008 6:14 PM

Bay Ridge Pizza, 5th Avenue between 77th and 78th Streets in Brooklyn. End of discussion.

Posted by Brian | March 13, 2008 6:16 PM

There is probably nothing more ridiculous than people who tout the virtues of Chicago pizza. Get a clue, you provincial cowtown hicks. Yeah, it's better than pizza in Milwaukee or Indianapolis. Maybe you can get a prize for that.

New Haven, CT still has some of the best pizza in the US. Matt is right that Italy generally has better ingredients - I'd rate Italian pizza #1 but you won't find a lot of innovation. In Boston there are still a few decent pizza joints run by Italians, and some very good gourmet places. Unfortunately for some reason most pizza places in the suburbs and New Hampshire are run by Greek-Americans - and there's nothing worse than the Greek-American take on pizza - really bready dough, bad cheese, bad sauce. In fact, any food prepared by Greeks in the US is generally pretty lousy - pizza, diner food, even Greek food. It's not clear to me why since I've had decent Turkish food in the US and the cuisines really aren't that different.

Posted by vanya | March 13, 2008 6:18 PM

I second "How Insane" on Little Star in San Francisco. That place is amazing. I need to go back to SF this summer with my wife just to go there again.

In New York, for big pies I like Totonno's in Coney Island, for individual sized pies with the world's best sausage I like Franny's on Flatbush Avenue, and for slices I like the Ray's on 11th street by the New School.

The only good slices of pizza in the entire state of Michigan is at a place called "My Cousin's New York Pizzeria" in Bloomfield Hills, MI. I learned this last fact the hard way.

Posted by foritsu | March 13, 2008 6:21 PM

any food prepared by Greeks in the US is generally pretty lousy - pizza, diner food, even Greek food.

\oo/

Posted by James Gary | March 13, 2008 6:25 PM

I went to Fellini's in Providence and it was pretty good. Happily, they now have a sister branch in Ellsworth Maine - a longtime hotbed of the italian-american community.

Posted by berger | March 13, 2008 6:28 PM

Re Don Williams

I find it very interesting that Mr. Williams thinks that the USA is going to hell in a handbasket and yet he appears to be reluctant to vote with his feet and move to, say Canada or New Zealand, which presumably are not. Actions speak louder then words. But then, Mr. Williams seemed reluctant to relocate from Pennsylvania which is under the thumb of those infernal Zionist conspirators Ed Rendell and Arlen Spector. Tsk, tsk.

Posted by SLC | March 13, 2008 6:30 PM

I think it's long past time for everyone to stop pretending that NY has some kind of stranglehold on pizza, and that pizza from any other location is not only inferior, but totally unacceptable.

See also: bagels, chinese food, museums.

Posted by Henry | March 13, 2008 6:33 PM

"DiFara's most definitely is NOT overrated. That's a step above every other place I've been. Lombardi's and John's are also up there"

While DiFara's is indeed better than Lombardi's and John's, that's because Lombardi's and John's are both rather mediocre, (though quite edible).

As always, Varasano's List at the bottom of the linked page is a pretty decent guide to the actual best pies available.

Posted by Petey | March 13, 2008 6:36 PM

"P.S. Argentina's Italian-origin population is SUBSTANTIAL."

Yes, as MY surely knows from Ginobili, Nocioni, Scola, etc...

Posted by nbt | March 13, 2008 6:41 PM

A pizzeria does not exist in a particular place on Earth to offer great pizza. The notion that it does is just a holdover from the days when you really couldn't get the necessary (let alone best) ingredients in some places. Plus, provincialism. The critical and popular acclaim bestowed upon Pizza Bianco (Phoenix, AZ) is proof that pizza does not need to be from an old, heavily-Italian city to be extremely good or "authentic" or perhaps even the best in America. Being near the source of good ingredients certainly helps, but it's not essential. You don't need to go to Maine for good lobster, despite what Matt would argue. And you don't need to go to some big American city for good pizza. PERIOD.

Hell, I can point you to three decent pizza joints in Tonga. It's thousands of miles from the nearest cheese maker, but it's got Italian ex-pats who care about making good pizza, even if there's hardly anyone there who wants to eat it.

And really, do you think DiFara's goddamn windowbox garden provides enough oregano for all those pizzas? Yeah right. And all that seafood we get at New England seafood joints is "local".

Posted by tinisoli | March 13, 2008 6:42 PM

"The critical and popular acclaim bestowed upon Pizza Bianco (Phoenix, AZ) is proof that pizza does not need to be from an old, heavily-Italian city to be extremely good or "authentic"

Sure. But the fact remains that about 80% of the really good pies in the Western hemisphere can be found either in New Haven or in Manhattan and Brooklyn south of the L train line.

You need a critical mass of good pizza ovens to create demand for good pies among consumers, which in turn creates demand for more good pizza ovens, which creates even more exposure to good pies among the populace. There was a virtuous circle in NYC and New Haven which created the current reality.

Places like Pizza Bianco are the exceptions that prove the NYC/New Haven rule.

Posted by Petey | March 13, 2008 6:56 PM

The critical and popular acclaim bestowed upon Pizza Bianco (Phoenix, AZ) is proof that pizza does not need to be from an old, heavily-Italian city to be extremely good or "authentic" or perhaps even the best in America.

As I mentioned on the original pizza thread, Bianco's is that good because the owner, Chris Bianco, is from New York.

While it is true that ingredients can be shipped easily anywhere (I think Bianco still gets some of his ingredients shipped to him from the Bronx), you need a critical number of people to produce a culture from which the appropriate mix of ingredients and technique is informed. That culture is the Italian-American culture of the northeast. So while northeasterners may go to Phoenix or whereever on occasion, the point is that the culture that informs the pizza is here in the northeast, and thus the vast majority of the best pizza places will be here too.

Posted by Al | March 13, 2008 6:58 PM

"The critical and popular acclaim bestowed upon Pizza Bianco (Phoenix, AZ) is proof that pizza does not need to be from an old, heavily-Italian city to be extremely good or "authentic"

And, of course, it's worth noting that Pizza Bianco was started by someone who moved to Phoenix after living and being trained in the NYC/New Haven pizza hot spot...

Posted by Petey | March 13, 2008 7:03 PM

Pizza is like ______: even when it's bad it's good.

Posted by Mark | March 13, 2008 7:06 PM

I think it's long past time for everyone to stop pretending that NY has some kind of stranglehold on pizza, and that pizza from any other location is not only inferior, but totally unacceptable.

See also: bagels, chinese food, museums.

Can we put cheese steaks on that list, also, with respect to Philadelphia? Some people from Philly seem to act as though there's some magic recipe for cheese steak subs that vanishes in a puff of smoke if it's transported outside the city limits, and thus all cheese steaks not made within the city are inferior and not fit for their consumption (although they order them anyway).

People from eastern Maryland act the same way with regard to crab cakes.

Posted by Jeff | March 13, 2008 7:08 PM

"As I mentioned on the original pizza thread, Bianco's is that good because the owner, Chris Bianco, is from New York."

Also worth noting that the quality of that joint is utterly dependent on Bianco's fanaticism. Since most of the Phoenix populace can't tell an adequate pie from an exquisite pie, the only motivating factor for him is that he personally wants to live up to his own standard of perfectionism.

That's how you get one good pizza place, not how you get a culture of good pies.

Posted by Petey | March 13, 2008 7:09 PM

I work with an Italian woman who is a Rhode Island native, and she concurs about the availability of much fine Pizza in the Ocean State.

But I also agree with the commenters who have already noted that pizza is such an inherently perfect and tasty food, and reasonably good quality ingredients are so widely available, that it is almost impossible to screw up completely. We're generally just talking about degrees of goodness. Who knows how many slices of pizza I have had in my life, but the number that would have made me say "yuck" can probably be counted on one hand. (Probably two of them were in Puerto Rico.)

Truth be told, in my book even the most tawdry and humdrum slice of corner shop pizza beats the highest end carpaccio with arugula and truffle oil - hands down. If it was my last meal, I'd probably grab a frozen pizza from a box before the carpaccio.

Posted by Dan Kervick | March 13, 2008 7:19 PM

Only nobs, guineas and peasants consume pizza.
Why waste your time writing about such low class food?

Like barbeque (Texas beef/Memphis pork) bourbon and beer, everyone should do a culinary heritage tour of NYC pizza.

Posted by a bitter Angeleno | March 13, 2008 7:19 PM

"Some people from Philly seem to act as though there's some magic recipe for cheese steak subs that vanishes in a puff of smoke if it's transported outside the city limits..."

Jeff, as a Philadelphian, I have a genuinely hard time finding hard Italian rolls outside the Delaware Valley. And without such rolls any cheesesteak will be deplorable.

Posted by Mark | March 13, 2008 7:24 PM

ANTONIO'S !!!!!! Amherst, MA 'nuff said.

Posted by matt | March 13, 2008 7:25 PM

ANTONIO'S !!!!!! Amherst, MA 'nuff said.

Posted by matt | March 13, 2008 7:26 PM

Since most of the Phoenix populace can't tell an adequate pie from an exquisite pie...

And you know this how?

Sure. But the fact remains that about 80% of the really good pies in the Western hemisphere can be found either in New Haven or in Manhattan and Brooklyn south of the L train line.

Are you sure it's 80%, Petey? Is it really a "fact"? Could it be a fact that you are, in fact, pulling this number right out of your provincial ass?

Posted by tinisoli | March 13, 2008 7:29 PM

Lemme put in a plug for Pizzaiolo in Oakland, who make their own sausage and cure their own prosciutto: http://www.pizzaiolooakland.com/
And it has the approval of my finicky Italian friend.

While I'm at it, let me dismiss Zachary's pizza, with its overly acidic sauce and cardboard crust, and the f(r)atboy crowd that keeps it busy.

Posted by matt | March 13, 2008 7:35 PM

utica is the best city for pizza.

Posted by orange | March 13, 2008 7:35 PM

There's decent American/Neapolitan pizza in Providence, but the best places are Sicilian.

Posted by Nicholas Beaudrot | March 13, 2008 8:01 PM

Whatever the case for pizza in NYC today vs. yesterday, we can all agree it is better than the pizza in Los Angeles.

Outside of some gourmet stuff that is good but not really pizza, you've only got a few hard to get to joints (say Casa Bianca in Eagle Rock, which is essentially in Arizona), Los Angeles has the very worst pizza in the country.

Posted by Lost in the West | March 13, 2008 8:06 PM

Well, you can sure tell who's a blowhard by reading these comments.

Posted by novakant | March 13, 2008 8:23 PM

Boston.

Posted by Daddy Love | March 13, 2008 8:35 PM

Whoever is dismissing Zachary's in Oakland, CA (matt) is obviously either (a) a knee-jerk contrarian or (b) a tongueless freak. Overly acidic sauce? Switch to a milk and soda cracker diet, buttercup.

Zachary's = best Chicago style pizza anywhere. Little Star in San Francisco is a distant second.

Posted by mxh | March 13, 2008 8:35 PM

Does Dominos deliver in Milano?

Posted by Comment | March 13, 2008 8:41 PM

Perfunctory statements to follow:

Saint Louis Style is the best. Don't lump Imo's into that. Bring on the scorn. Additionally, the Hill is true Italy. Where do you think you all get your damn sausage from anyway?

Thanks.

Posted by R. Pointer | March 13, 2008 9:07 PM

R. Pointer--

Does Amighetti's still have the best sandwiches in StL?

Posted by mxh | March 13, 2008 9:17 PM

mxk, I am indeed jerk and a contrarian, but not a knee-jerk one. That Zachary's is the best Chicago-style pizza anywhere means nothing, as it has already been noted that Chicago-style pizza isn't very good. I am aware that many people like Zachary's, which is why one's opinion of it is a reliable indicator of a refined palate. But BTW, I can handle the spice level at the Udupi palace in Fremont, which puts the tamed Berkeley franchise to shame; so my "overly acidic" complaint isn't about anything other than how Zachary's sauce unbalances their pizza. Indeed, if I were to opt for a soda cracker diet, I could think of nothing better than Zachary's crust.

Posted by matt | March 13, 2008 9:28 PM

As a pizza engineer and deliverator in a previous life and later, briefly, a resident of Illinois, your unbridled hatred for Chicago deep dish is troublesome. There were roughly 2 successfully executed deep dish pizzas on that show last night (deep dish != more dough), and a there's nothing gooey about a decent deep-dish pie.

I'm in Baltimore now, and while it's like no canonical pizza you've ever had, you gotta check out Matthew's in Highlandtown. The best pan crust I've ever had. I think they call it a stuffed or deep dish or something pizza, but it isn't... but it's wonderful. Joe Squared is a new place that makes decent thin-ish pie... unfortunately that's about it, but I'm headed to Chicago in a few weeks.

Posted by Zach | March 13, 2008 9:38 PM

Uncle Tony's. East Providence. Tasty square pies.

Seconding Uncle Tony's here. It is really incredible square pizza, used to kill those on the way home from detention.

There are a litany of great pizza place in RI, Pizza Pier in Providence, Boston House in East Providence, Kikkapoo on the CT border is a great stop on the way in.

Posted by Andrew | March 13, 2008 10:02 PM

Umberto's, New Hyde Park, NY, just outside the NYC line. THE BEST. If you're ever anywhere close, go.

Posted by bcamarda | March 13, 2008 10:22 PM

If you are eating pizza outside of metro NY
you may be getting an excellent slice but you are still missing something.

Same goes for Philly/cheese steaks and hoagies, Buffalo/wings, Chicago/italian beef, Toronto/peameal and LA/french dips.

Posted by go to the source | March 13, 2008 10:35 PM

Vanya's right; Petey's misleading.

New Haven pizza (which is also found in nearby Hamden) is simply the best in the world. It's better than anything I've had in Italy. It's better than anything I've had in NY or Brooklyn or Newark. (Don't knock North Newark pie--where do you think the Sopranos hang out?) It's so good, it almost redeems Holy Joe Lieberman.

Posted by Joe S. | March 13, 2008 10:45 PM

Of course y'all could just make your own pizza. It's surprisingly easy. (Sorry about the barfy formatting -- Google/Blogger ate my paragraphing and I can't get it back.)

Posted by Phoenix Woman | March 13, 2008 11:57 PM

"Jeff, as a Philadelphian, I have a genuinely hard time finding hard Italian rolls outside the Delaware Valley. And without such rolls any cheesesteak will be deplorable."

Indeed. Almost all of the bread for Philly cheesesteaks and hoagies comes from one fucking local bakery, which accounts for a substantial part of why you can't replicate the experience out of area.

But the "critical mass" factor is also at work here. Just as NYC and New Haven have developed a virtuous circle of good pizzerias and demanding pizza eaters, the same thing is at work in Philly for cheesesteaks.

Even if you could make the bread, the sublime brilliance of a Jim's cheesesteak would be lost on the consumer in Phoenix with nothing to compare it against.

Posted by Petey | March 14, 2008 12:28 AM

"Of course y'all could just make your own pizza. It's surprisingly easy."

You can make a quite tasty pizza-esque thing at home quite easily, but you really can't make a proper pie at home no matter how hard you try. Your oven simply won't get hot enough.

It's part of what makes good pizza such a special occasion. You need to go somewhere they've got a monster coal fired kiln to get the proper baked goods.

Posted by Petey | March 14, 2008 12:39 AM

Can we put cheese steaks on that list, also, with respect to Philadelphia? Some people from Philly seem to act as though there's some magic recipe for cheese steak subs that vanishes in a puff of smoke if it's transported outside the city limits, and thus all cheese steaks not made within the city are inferior and not fit for their consumption (although they order them anyway).

As a New Yorker who lived in Philly for a few years, I believe that you will generally find better pizza in NY than any other city and that you will generally find better cheesesteaks in Philly than in any other city.

Posted by bill | March 14, 2008 12:55 AM

(I grew up in Wisconsin - ie great mozzarella = where my father, a Chicago native, owned a half-dozen pizza restaurants where, oddly, he served a very New York-ish thin crust pie. Nobody makes pizza quite like dear old Dad's.)

Re: "Los Angeles has the very worst pizza in the country."

I've lived in LA for 20+ years, and I often tell people here, and back home, that I've had better pizza in the airport in Chicago than I've had here in LA.

It's an exaggeration, but a very small one.

Posted by Robert Earle | March 14, 2008 1:25 AM

New York pizza sucks Moon rocks. I've done this experiment. My wife grew up in NYC, went to school at NYU. She's taken me to every pizza place in the city, including Famous Ray's (the real Ray's, she's been around the block enough times to know where it is) and the sad truth is they all sucked. Badly. I'm 48 years old and I've never had a good pizza in NYC. Best pizza I've ever had is right here in Atlanta at Grant Central. The crust is the key. With a crappy crust, it doesn't really matter what you put on top of it. You don't know this because the crust is a subtext, not a main player.

And Petey, you can make a good pizza at home. You're right, the oven doesn't get hot enough but the grill damn sure does. Anything that passes 600 degrees makes a good pizza.

Been there, done that, went away fat and happy.

Posted by pjcamp | March 14, 2008 1:26 AM

I'm quite upset. I thought you had been trained in analytic philosophy. Had you, you would know that it is a necessary truth that Chicago-style pizza is the best. (The best I've ever had was in Champaign, IL, actually.)

Posted by MattD | March 14, 2008 2:17 AM

As a Chicago native who now lives in LA, I weep daily for what has been left behind. I would rather dumpster-dive Gino's in Chicago than eat CPK.

Posted by MattD | March 14, 2008 2:23 AM

I'm going to have to stop reading your blog.

I'm in China. I haven't had decent pizza in over a year. Give me a goddamn break.

Posted by Loren Michael | March 14, 2008 2:27 AM

"If you think Italian Pizza is good, you really have to go to Buenos Aires, Argentina and try the local wares."

The pizza at Los Immortales in Buenos Aires was pretty good. Nice too that you could get it with a whole wheat crust (or as they call it down there, "integral". You can get plenty of good pizza without taking an 11 hour flight though.

Posted by Fred | March 14, 2008 2:53 AM

I've had plenty of good pizza, but I don't buy it that any pizza ever surpasses a certain ceiling. It's pizza.

Posted by Mike | March 14, 2008 5:37 AM

[I grew up in Wisconsin - ie great mozzarella ]

I think a kitten just died in Campania.

Posted by dsquared | March 14, 2008 6:25 AM

> You can make a quite tasty pizza-esque
> thing at home quite easily, but you really can't
> make a proper pie at home no matter how hard you
> try. Your oven simply won't get hot enough.

You are a bit misinformed: there are at least three ways to get a 900 deg.F baking surface for home pizza making.

Cranky

Posted by Cranky Observer | March 14, 2008 7:29 AM

MattD: Who in Champaign makes good deep dish? Are you talking about Papa Del's? That takes me back, sure, but I don't remember it being that amazing. FYI, it's more or less the same as the deep dish that I made working at Rosati's (a Chicago suburb chain, but my location was in suburban Kansas oddly enough), except we made ours w/ thick slices of mozz at the bottom, then toppings, then sauce/parm/etc.

I need to scrounge up some cell phone pics of the last deep dish I made; it's fast and easy aside from waiting for dough to rise, not gooey, delicious, and much easier to do accurately at home than a thin pizza that really, really requires a pizza oven.

Posted by Zach | March 14, 2008 7:33 AM

I grew up in RI and spent several years in NY. The worst pizza in RI (my nominee is Town Pizza in East Providence; YMMV) is still several steps ahead of the stuff at the average by-the-slice joint in NYC. I'm sure there's good pizza in NYC but I never found it. For that matter, the only good pizza I ever had in NY state was at The Greek House in Ithaca, and even that wasn't great.

And now I live near Boston, and the dropoff in quality from Providence to Boston is just amazing.

Posted by John | March 14, 2008 8:02 AM

The best pizza in many parts of New England is made by Greeks. Thick chewy crusts. Partisans of thin crust New York pizza hate it, but all the pizza I remember from Italy had thick crusts.

I used to think the worst Pizza was in Maine, but I stopped at a place a little east of sacramento over Christmas. I don't think any of the people working there had ever met an Italian.

Posted by PSP | March 14, 2008 8:17 AM

I don't buy it that any pizza ever surpasses a certain ceiling. It's pizza.

What he said, pizza is nice, but it's a simple, casual dish and can only be done right in so many ways. I fear there's a lot of wasted critical energy here - try pasta for a change, the variations are almost endless.

Posted by novakant | March 14, 2008 8:35 AM

Good pizza this side of the pond you will find in Sao Paulo, Brazil and perhaps in Buenos Aires, Argentina. Alas, both cities with more Italians than New York.

Posted by Eco | March 14, 2008 8:41 AM

Uh, Mr. Yglesias, if you need home-style New York pizza in the DC area all you need to do is cross the Potomac; can you say Joe's Place?

As for the best single pizza I ever had that was in a joint in Zadar, Croatia; I'm not saying that ambience didn't have something to do with it. Our pizza-producing brethern across the pond just use fresher ingredients. Not to mention that they take bread more seriously.

Posted by Shrike58 | March 14, 2008 8:48 AM

After backpacking for 2 weeks in the Adirondacks one very wet July (about 20 years ago) -- we came down off the mountains, mud above the knee and bleeding profusely from the black fly attacks, and had the most important slice of pizza in my life in Lake Placid. Who knew? Then again it could have been ketchup-soaked cardboard and I would have eaten it with gusto.

Context is all.

Posted by mike c | March 14, 2008 8:59 AM

Also, on international pizza. Pretty much every pizza I had (which was a lot owing to horrid exchange rates) on a recent New Zealand vacation was fucking fantastic. For one example, check out the Zappa-inspired Dangerous Kitchen (http://www.eatdrinknelson.co.nz/golden-bay.html) in Takaka, Golden Bay, NZ.

It's like the super precious goat-cheese/etc pizza you get at hip places here without the preciousness, lightness, etc. And they put pumpkin seeds on just about everything which is surprisingly awesome. Oh and the crust is roughly NYC style so you all should be satisfied.

Posted by Zach | March 14, 2008 9:06 AM

Wherever you fall on the NY/Chicago-style pizza debate, can we all agree that referring to NY-style pizza as "pie" is a total misnomer? Chicago-style runs far closer to the concept of a pie. Not sure how to characterize NY-style, but it's not a pie.

Posted by Kurzbein | March 14, 2008 9:38 AM

can we all agree that referring to NY-style pizza as "pie" is a total misnomer? Chicago-style runs far closer to the concept of a pie. Not sure how to characterize NY-style, but it's not a pie.

I have no opinion on this whatsoever, but this Italian American refers to it as a "pie" and the pizza looks pretty thin to me ;).

Posted by novakant | March 14, 2008 10:35 AM

Best ever= Lido's in College Park Maryland.

Posted by rainman41 | March 14, 2008 11:18 AM

"but all the pizza I remember from Italy had thick crusts."

???

Granted, I usually spend most of my time in the north, but I don't think I've ever had a pizza with thick crust in Italy. And I've probably had close to 100 pizzas there.

Posted by Joe | March 14, 2008 11:29 AM

Outside of some gourmet stuff that is good but not really pizza, you've only got a few hard to get to joints (say Casa Bianca in Eagle Rock, which is essentially in Arizona), Los Angeles has the very worst pizza in the country.

Ha ha, very funny. Eagle Rock is still within the city limits of L.A.; you sound like a provincial westsider who thinks Silver Lake is on the east side of L.A. The San Gabriel Valley -- which even the New York Times has admitted has the best Chinese food in the country -- has a couple of good pizza joints. Check out Petrillo's in San Gabriel, which has the best-tasting, most filling toppings anywhere, or for authentic Neapolitan-style, Bollini's in Monterey Park.

I should also note that the one major regional specialty I've hardly ever seen anyone outside its region even attempt to duplicate is Cincinnati-style chili. There are a handful of Skyline Chili locations in nearby burgs like Indianapolis and Columbus, but that stuff - which no one will ever mistake for gourmet food, but is still pretty satisfying - seems to never venture beyond about a 100-mile radius of Cincinnati.

Posted by Adam Villani | March 14, 2008 1:54 PM

Well, yes. Exactly.

Once you eat pizza in Italy, you'll never eat this garbage they call pizza here in the U.S. ever again.

There is a little old Italian woman who lives in my neighborhood in a suburb outside of Pittsburgh. She (and her late husband) has a home business of home-baked crusty Italian breads and authentic pizza. It's a wonderful thing to be able to find such a wonderful, tasty reminder of Italy right in my backyard. Her pizza is fantastic, her bread even better. She only makes the pizza on weekends and in a very limted number. But, oh! What pizza!

Posted by geg6 | March 14, 2008 2:46 PM

On the Chicago style pizza in Champaign, he must have been referring to Papa Del's, since that's the only such joint in the area. (and has been for 20 years. Garcias used to serve a great thick slice pizza, but it never was chicago-style.) It's good, but I preferred the Geno's ones I had up in Chicago. The only way I can understand the hate of Chicago style pizza here is if people have hade Uno's and think that it's Chicago style pizza.

As far as the complaints about Baltimore, I'm surprised, given the large Italian population. I haven't tried any pizza down in Little Italy, but I'd have assumed there'd be some good pizzas available there.

I'm up north of the cit and there are some nice small places. Nothing worth travelling for, but still above average when it comes to local neighborhood places, especially in the suburbs.

Posted by Doug T | March 14, 2008 3:53 PM

On the Chicago style pizza in Champaign, he must have been referring to Papa Del's, since that's the only such joint in the area. (and has been for 20 years. Garcias used to serve a great thick slice pizza, but it never was chicago-style.) It's good, but I preferred the Geno's ones I had up in Chicago. The only way I can understand the hate of Chicago style pizza here is if people have hade Uno's and think that it's Chicago style pizza.

As far as the complaints about Baltimore, I'm surprised, given the large Italian population. I haven't tried any pizza down in Little Italy, but I'd have assumed there'd be some good pizzas available there.

I'm up north of the cit and there are some nice small places. Nothing worth travelling for, but still above average when it comes to local neighborhood places, especially in the suburbs.

Posted by Doug T | March 14, 2008 3:53 PM

H. Clinton - Dominoes Track candidate
B. Obama - Local wood-fired oven pizza track.

By the way, I grew up in Providence, and can safely vouch that Caserta's still owns. (Pizza Pie-er on Wickendon is also superb.)

Posted by Ethan | March 14, 2008 4:03 PM

Oh Garcia's on Wright.... man, that brings back some memories.

(Not of good pizza).

Most of my memories of pizza in Champaign are of bad pizza. Pokey sticks at 3am....

Bonnie Jeans had some pretty good calzone's though.

(side note: Chicago Deep Dish rules. Spinach marbled in the cheese: essential.)

Posted by dbt | March 14, 2008 9:20 PM

This:

"Once you eat pizza in Italy, you'll never eat this garbage they call pizza here in the U.S. ever again."

Is contradicted by this:

"There is a little old Italian woman who lives in my neighborhood in a suburb outside of Pittsburgh. She (and her late husband) has a home business of home-baked crusty Italian breads and authentic pizza. It's a wonderful thing to be able to find such a wonderful, tasty reminder of Italy right in my backyard. Her pizza is fantastic, her bread even better. She only makes the pizza on weekends and in a very limted number. But, oh! What pizza!"

Which makes your post both pretentious and logically inconsistent. To use an easy simile, that's like getting two toppings for the price of one.

Posted by Fred | March 14, 2008 9:58 PM