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Party Destruction

05 Mar 2008 12:42 pm

Does the prospect of a long, drawn-out contest between Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton spell doom for the eventual nominee? A lot of people have a sinking feeling that it does. Kevin Drum makes the case for chilling out by reminding us that the internecine fighting could hardly get worse than it was in 1968:

If long, bitter, primary campaigns really destroy parties, then Humphrey should have lost the 1968 election by about 50 points. "Bitter" isn't even within an order of magnitude of describing what happened that year. And yet, even against that blood-soaked background, Humphrey barely lost.

So I say: chill out. Like a lot of people, I'm not very happy about the direction the Democratic campaign has taken, but the idea that it's going to wreck the eventual winner's chances in the fall seems pretty far fetched. It takes more than a few nasty exchanges to do that. And who knows? By keeping Dems in the spotlight, it might even help them. Stranger things have happened.

Maybe. Although it is hard to draw conclusions based on races like 1968 in which you saw a very substantial third party vote (indeed it strikes me as a bit odd that we're not seeing such a vote; McCain winning the nomination seems tailor-made for Ron Paul to run an appeal to anti-immigrant and anti-war sentiment). It is true, however, that political outcomes are mostly explained by the fundamentals -- demographics and objective events in the world -- and not by the candidates or the campaigns. On the other hand, a presidential election is fundamentally a zero-sum, high-stakes competition, so at the end of the day marginal impacts are very important even if they're rather small.

At any rate, consider this. Yesterday Josh Marshall had a complaint:

Let's note that Sen. McCain has decided to hang tough with his embrace of anti-Catholic, anti-Semitic Pastor John Hagee. And the major papers and cable news outlets have decided to give him a pass.

I've been Hagee-bashing since before it was cool, so this pisses me off, too. But realistically it's not the press and the cable networks that gave McCain a pass, it was Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama. They gave him a pass because, of course, they were arguing with each other. For a little while during the Wisconsin-Texas interregnum, Obama did pivot in the direction of McCain and it gave Clinton the opportunity to smack him over the head with a frying pan. I assume neither campaign is going to make that mistake again until this thing is actually wrapped up. But that means that there'll be nobody effectively pressing the media with anti-McCain talking points. It also means that Clinton will continue re-enforcing whatever good lines of attack McCain comes up with against Obama, and if McCain starts delivering good anti-Clinton lines, Obama will probably start re-enforcing those, too.

This kind of dynamic hardly guarantees defeat in November, but it's hard to see how it helps.

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Comments (110)

Perusing your front page this morning and I'm left to wonder when Yglesias went on vacation and asked Sullivan to sit in. So much emotion, so little reason.

Demosthenes compares it to a healthy-sized pile of meaty chunks.

I also think Langston Hughes is relevant:

What happens to a dream deferred?

Does it dry up
like a raisin in the sun?
Or fester like a sore--
And then run?
Does it stink like rotten meat?
Or crust and sugar over--
like a syrupy sweet?

Maybe it just sags
like a heavy load.

Or does it explode?

There's a big difference between 1968 and 2008: the Democrats were still the "natural" majority party in 1968. The only Republican who had been elected in 36 years was Ike, who was essentially seen as outside of party politics. 1968 was the year that all began to change, and nothing could have stopped the loss of the south, but Nixon's win was seen as possible only because the Democrats made it possible, through their infighting and their handling of the war.

By contrast, the Republicans begin every election year in this era with around 170 votes pretty much in the bag (I think that's about what Bob Dole got in 1996). They don't have the "lock" they once did, but their natural November base is still bigger, to the point that a failed president could get re-elected in 2004. Recent history has shown that the Democratic margin for error is extremely thin, certainly thinner than it was in 1968. Anything that impedes a smooth fall campaign could be fatal.

This kind of dynamic hardly guarantees defeat in November, but it's hard to see how it helps.

I think it's pretty easy to see how it helps. The Democrats are going to get tons of free media over the next 7 weeks (and, most likely, longer). McCain is hardly going to be seen in the media.

Will the competition drive up negatives of the candidates? Perhaps. But the Republicans in the general election would likely drive up their negatives anyway.

The key is for the candidates to use the incredible amount of free media they will be getting to get their own message out, even while attacking the other guy.

There's a LONG time between now and the GE. Many low-information voters haven't even come close to starting to pay attention yet. And McCain's vulnerabilities aren't going away- they'll still be there for the exploiting when the primary race is over.

And, if I'm not mistaken, Nixon won, not Humphrey.

I'd just like to point out that this post of Matt's is long, addresses several points, is cogently argued, contains prose that is lively and vigorous, and has no typos.

So we know you can do it.

In 1968 the Democratic Party was being torn up by the Vietnam War. In 2008 there is little difference on the issues; rather a difference on the messenger and the style of politics the messenger will follow. While Clinton has sounded close to being a Liebercrat, I cannot imagine her bolting the party if she does not get the nomination. Obama has no home but the Democratic Party. So we got unity on the message and unity of purpose for the fall election. All we need is a nominee.

Matthew is correct that Obama should drop out for the good of the Party.

I know that must be a hard conclusion for him to come to, and I salute his courageousness in proclaiming it.

It's only March. Historically, many nominations have not been wrapped up until mid-summer.

I think it's pretty easy to see how it helps. The Democrats are going to get tons of free media over the next 7 weeks (and, most likely, longer). McCain is hardly going to be seen in the media.

The free media for the Democrats will be the trumpeting of negative ads and tactics, while the limited free media McCain gets will be just enough to allow him to frame the debate on every issue.

Comparing this primary battle to 68 is a fellatious argument. Obama and Clinton, by virtue of their race and gender, are inspiring a more gut, visceral emotional response from voters than in 68. Electing the first woman, the first AA, people are investing heavily in the potential. Therefore, the comedown when one or the other loses the contest will almost certainly depress voter turnout among the candidates strongholds. Which is why people want a split ticket. the longer HRC stays in the more likely the outcome, but that is something Obama really doesnt need, from a vulnerability standpoint. She would almost certainly bring him down. That said, i cringe when thinking how many of the women Clinton has fired up in this campaign, with her explicit appeal to gender politics, would be offended by Obama getting the nod. "The Dem Party betrays women again..."


Petey, master of the non sequitur.

I have a question.

If Obama's already won this thing (barring disaster), based on the math, why is he bothering with Clinton at all?

Why not just focus on organizing, on the ground-game (which transfers to the general), and combine his responses to her attacks with his attacks on McCain, never mentioning her by name: "Some say experience is more important than judgment. But if your experience led you to weaken the military and rubber-stamp George Bush's misguided war, what good is it? With experience like that, who needs enemies? The only direction my opponent is ready to lead us is 'backwards.' John McCain is a candidate for yesterday. I'm a candidate for tomorrow."

Historically, nominating contests don't start two years before the election. Clinton can't make up the delegate spread, so whatever justification there was for going negative in Texas and Ohio cannot be operative.

This kind of dynamic hardly guarantees defeat in November, but it's hard to see how it helps.

Well, one of the problems with the last two Dem candidates was that they had difficulty throwing a real punch, or deflecting slime attacks from the other side.

One of these candidates is going to have to prove that they can do those things in the semi-finals. I like Obama a lot, but having candidates who get the nomination without throwing some punches might not be the best way to go. We'll get to see what he does in a real fight, and that's not a bad thing.

Am I the only one who remember we lost in 1968?
It was close too. So close only a fool would think the convention battle didn't matter.

It's also fair to note that 1968 showed weaker affiliations among the base. Most states didn't even have campaigns, they simply put forth Humphrey's delegates. People have worked hard for this, and defeat is going to feel a lot worse. Since instituting primaries, Democrats have not once won the Presidential election following a close nomination struggle. Not once. There is really no reason to believe that we won't lose this again. People can argue the opposite all they want, but they are arguing against history and all available evidence.

I think the very fact that Republicans want the Dem race to continue is enough for me to want it to end. Quickly.

It's not as though Hagee's endorsement will magically disappear. All it takes is one mention in a debate or one Youtube-like ad (similar to the "No Nato subcommittee hearings" ad run by Clinton) to bring it back up and place it at the center of attention.

I agree with Matt. Obama has it mathematically wrapped up, a generally mathematically illiterate public might not see that --- but it is so. Taking Obama down a notch has increased Hillary's chances -- only possible by having the super-delegates overrule the pledged delegates. Probably no better way to drive young people from the party (people under 30 supported Obama 3 to 2 over Hillary in Ohio). On the other hand if she loses and takes Obama down so far that McCain wins, she can run in 2012. Hard to see a downside for her in trying to weaken Obama as much as possible over the next few months. Well there is the obvious downside it isn't good for the party.

I do think it is possible the negative campaign is not having as much of an effect as it appears. Another explaination of Hillary's win is Hillary's support is an increase in enthusiasm by her supporters who don't want to see her humiliated. I felt this a bit in New Hampshire, if Obama had won Iowa and New Hampshire -- it could have been over then, her supporters came out and saved her, then relaxed again for super tuesday (where she was defeated but not humiliated). Losing so many in a row was starting to look like a humiliation again, he support rose to the occasion, but now with a respectable showing it may relax again and perhaps Obama will wrap it up in Penn.

Enough: It's spelled "fallacious". A fellatious argument is the kind that Bill used with Monica.

I don't see how free media helps the Democrats when one candidate is saying the other candidate is less qualified than the Republican nominee.

Did Humphrey, McCarthy, and R. Kennedy ever say Nixon would be preferable to any of their opponents? It would have been unimaginable. But Clinton continues to sink to new depths.

On balance, the drawn-out primary will hurt the Democrats. It will drive up the eventual nominee's negatives and prevent the Democrats from driving up McCain's negatives. The deep feelings among the Democrats also threatens to drive down the GOTV in November.

a more gut, visceral emotional response from voters than in 68

I don't think so. Humphrey was absolutely hated by many Democrats because of his connection with the Vietnam war.

RFK's followers were even more enthusiastic for their man than Obama's are today. McCarthy had the "latte-liberals" of his day. Meanwhile, McCarthy didn't care for Kennedy, and the feeling was mutual.

By contrast, this year's race is a love in.

"a generally mathematically illiterate public might not see that"

Literate folks say "innumerate" instead of "mathematically illiterate".

I think Petey meant to say
Matthew is correct that Obama should drop out for the good of the Petey.

"But that means that there'll be nobody effectively pressing the media with anti-McCain talking points."

And to echo Al's point, perhaps nobody will be paying too much attention to McCain while the Obama/Hillary fight for the nomination continues.

However, with seven weeks of airtime before Pennsylvania votes, the Media is going to nuts trying to fill the 24/7 news cycle. So perhaps some attention will have to be paid to McCain just to give the talking heads something different to talk about.

As to the merits of Mr. Marshall's complaint, I'm as politically knowledgeable as anyone, and I had no idea who "anti-Catholic, anti-Semitic Pastor John Hagee" is nor do I care to find out anything about him. Perhaps the media reached the same conclusion.

"Literate folks say "innumerate" instead of "mathematically illiterate"." Really? I thought that was the assholes, no?

I've been arguing elsewhere on earlier threads that Hillary has a strong argument for the nomination. Of course, Obama is not going to drop out with a 125 delegate lead just because of my argument. Nor should he.

However, it is problematic for the Democrats if only because in order to make gains, each side is going to have to dig deeper into issues that are ripe for the Republicans in the general. In other words, the differences on policy are fairly small, and Hillary's main perceived advantage - health care - didn't make much of a dent yesterday according to some exits.

So she or her surrogates are going to have to go increasingly negative with character attacks. Since Obama has this image as someone without a lot of baggage who can unite the party/country, these attacks will have far more effect than their substance would otherwise indicate. It's clear to me that Obama didn't do anything shady with Rezko beyond his "boneheaded" move. But that's not the issue. The issue is whether the average voter who will hear "Rezko" and "trial" and "Obama fundraiser" will reject him given that the major reason to like Obama is his generalized message of hope and unity.

Obama is going to be launching attacks on Clinton. She'll fair a lot better because the average Democratic voter will have already factored into their perception of her that, well, the Clintons have a history of scandals of these sorts. So I think those attacks aren't going to hurt Obama much, and may hurt him to the extend that people regard him as just another politician attacking an opponent (as opposed to this transcendent agent of change.)

For the average independent/moderate Republican, attacks on Clinton are going to solidify an impression of corruption/shady dealings/negatives, though.

On the whole, I am a bit more pessimistic about this for the Democrats than Yglesias. The excitement around the campaign could quickly go sour.

So while it's in the party's interest to get the best candidate (thus, my posts on Clinton's viability and legitimacy), it's also in the party's interest to wrap this up now. Too bad it won't be.

"Perusing your front page this morning and I'm left to wonder when Yglesias went on vacation and asked Sullivan to sit in. So much emotion, so little reason."

I think the changeover from sanity to fervor happened about a month ago.

It is now all up to the Super-Dels.

The whole idea behind having the Supers in the first place is to make sure that the grown-ups are in charge when the kids get too giddy, or rowdy, for their own good.

The Supers understand that winning elections is about November dynamics rather than delegate mathematics.

In the states that matter, Hillary has been consistently legitimized by the popular vote while Obama has been buttressed by the aparatchik vote, or the caucases as some call it. Sure, the undisciplined kids lean left and wanna get high! But the grown-ups need more structure and predictability in their lives.

The Supers want to make money, not history. They look forward to no-bid contracts, White House soirees and ambassadorial appointments. They could care less whose face ends up on a postage stamp.

After Texas and Ohio, and inevitably Pennsylvania, the Supers will line-up behind Hillary because she's the one to win.

The kids will sulk and pout, and then get distracted by another Hollywood scandal. The grown-ups will enjoy the real thrill of power.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9A02E3DD1539F93BA15751C0A9669C8B63
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Above link from February 28th, 2000 NY Times.
Bush and McCain were duking it out in roughly the same time frame Obama and Clinton are going at it. They were in the party out of power, attempting to retake the White House. It was a nasty nomination battle. Yet Bush went on to "win". Analogous? Seems so to me, at least a bit. Having to fight for the eventual nomination didn't seem to ruin Bush's November prospects, even as late as late February.

Ringo,
That is, without a doubt, the most ridiculous post I've read all week. And I voted for Hillary. You should start praying for suicide.

We lost in '68. And idiots like Buchanan keep pointing out that Reagan took Ford to the Convention in '76 and "the party didn't fall apart." Yeah, and Ford lost that year as well.

A convention fight is not good for the Dems in any way, shape or form, yet at this point it doesn't seem like we're going to be able to avoid it. On this Day After, the one reality that is sinking in with me is that I don't see how we can avoid a combination ticket at this point. The longer this goes on, the more hateful each side's supporters feel toward the opponent. The Republicans always have the ability to unite us, but not in 6-8 weeks, which is what it will be.

I used to think this "unity ticket" was a line Clinton floated because it helped her ("Vote for me and I'll pick the guy you really like to be my running mate"), but now it's becoming reality for both sides. And as a deeply partisan supporter, I'm not happy about it.

So.... thankfully Humphrey only narrowly lost the election?

Wow. Now I feel so much better about President Kerry, who was the choice of a majority of solid Democratic voters.

Petey, master of the non sequitur.

Petey's transformed into the master baiter/liar.

Obama has the Democratic nomination locked up unless there's some massive screwup which is unlikely. The math is the math and it's unforgiving.

A screwup is unlikely because his campaign is staffed with pros who have only gotten better and have learned from their mistakes. Hillary's been allowed to go on and indulge her vanity because her husband happens to have been a centrist President for 8 years during a conservative era. But I sense a change of direction in the winds.

The kids will sulk and pout, and then get distracted by another Hollywood scandal. The grown-ups will enjoy the real thrill of power.

The kids will also stay at home in November, which hands the election to John McCain. The grown-ups with sulk and pout, and then blame a stupid electorate for ruining their cunning plan yet again.

Obama has the Democratic nomination locked up unless there's some massive screwup which is unlikely. The math is the math and it's unforgiving.

Ok, explain, cause I'm not seeing it. There are about 600 delegates left to be claimed through voting, which would leave either candidate well short of the finish line, even with a solid run of 60/40 wins.

The committed supers favor Hillary so far, but not by a huge amount. Leaving the gap to be closed by the uncommitted supers or late breakers.

If this has to be decided by the supers anyway, why is it so outrageous to think that they might line up behind one candidate or the other?

I see nothing but a dogfight here. Obama will end up ahead, but the final outcome is far from certain.

She wants internecine war. Let's give her internecine war. The big push now should be 1. A gala review of all the Clinton scandals of the 1990's. And 2. This festive review should be the segue into the future, coming scandals that would attend a second Clinton White House. The mother-lode, the ground zero, the nuclear reactor, the gift that could keep on giving to the GOP during a first term Clinton Presidency is multi-million dollar charitable Trust known as the WJC Foundation, that may be stuffed with markers, or claims, on future Clinton Presidency policies

It's almost a lock that Bill Clinton has spent the last year pre-selling seats and memberships to his wife's Presidency.

Bring it on, Barack.

She will be down by nearly 100 pledged delegates by the time the convention rolls around. She's going to make up that entire amount with the uncommitted and late breakers? I can't see that being a possibility. It sounds like a case of wishful thinking, and I'm backing Hillary. I know this has been talked about many times, but November is toast if Hillary gets the nomination in that fashion.

"Obama has the Democratic nomination locked up ... The math is the math"

That's what Karl Rove thought about the Republicans in 2006 too.

Misreading numbers and tricking yourself into thinking you have The Math is always pretty damn dangerous in politics.

"A screwup is unlikely because his campaign is staffed with pros"

Like Austan Goolsbee?

Like the folks who think it's smart to go negative after elections instead of before elections?

Like the folks who think that fighting against universal healthcare is a winning position in the Democratic Party?

I don't see the case for a unity ticket: I'm positive Obama doesn't want the two-headed monster as his veep(s), and Hillary can't very well name someone she's derided as unqualified (I also don't think Obama would take the job).

I love the casual assumption by the Hillarybots that it's going to be a simple thing for the superdelegates to nullify an Obama lead in the pledged delegates, won in races conducted under rules everyone knew ahead of time. A Democratic party without black voters won't be a party much worth having.

Obama's still the more likely nominee, with maybe an 85% shot (90% before yesterday evening).

By my math, subtracting the early votes, Clinton took the Texas primary popular vote among votes cast in the polling booth 53% to 45%. Given that Obama was ahead 50%/47% in early voting, you could make the argument that momentum has shifted Clinton's way. With those numbers, hard to see an argument for dropping out today.

I continue to bash away at the question of what the tipping point is for the superdelegates. I think this is a separate question to the "party elders" imposing discipline in the campaign if it goes very negative (so far, things have been Queensbury rules from my PoV).

Candidate A leads candidate B by 1 pledged delegate at the convention. Must the supers vote to nominate Candidate A? I think most of us would say no.

Candidate A leads candidate B by 799 pledged delegates. Can the 800 supers vote en masse to deny candidate A the nomination? Again, I think most of us would say no.

OK, so somewhere in between 1 and 799 there's some (likely ill-defined) point where I can imagine a party consensus, irrespective of the identies of candidates A and B, where we'd expect (for example) that a lead of 200 pledged delegates ought not to be overturned by a 501/299 majority in the supers.

But who gets to decide what this tipping point is? If you're A, you want the number as low as possible ("if I'm up by as few as 10 delegates, the supers shouldn't stand in my way")

If you're B, you'd be making the argument "sure, A has a narrow lead of 120 out of 3250 delegates. But you (supers) are the conscience of our party. We urge you to vote for what's best for all Democrats")

I don't think the answers are obvious.

"I love the casual assumption by the Hillarybots that it's going to be a simple thing for the superdelegates to nullify an Obama lead in the pledged delegates, won in races conducted under rules everyone knew ahead of time. A Democratic party without black voters won't be a party much worth having."

So now even ChuckE thinks Obama should drop out for the good of the Party?

I actually think Obama should continue along for another few contests for the sanity of his followers before packing it in.

Looking around, Axelrod is going to take off Obama's gloves. Tax returns first. The Clintons will hit back with Rezko and off we go...

But Obama should emerge victorious from this if he plays his cards right.

HRC will accuse Obama of going back on being a different kind of politician, but BHO has to just say, "Hillary, all I'm doing is asking questions that others have failed to ask. You're claims to being vetted fall flat when you consider the cloud of mystery surrounding X,Y,Z...It's obvious your strategy is to avoid difficult issues, to be less than forthcoming with voters about things that may be uncomfortable for you to explain, but that is not how you win the public's trust, that is not how you win campaigns, that is not how you change this country."

And with Rezko, do a till you drop presser, answer all questions, and move on. If Wolfon keeps pushing it, he should say: "Everyone who has looked at this objectively has found that I have done nothing to violate the public trust. Since all you have is innuendo, this underhanded attempt to imply guilt that doesn't exist is depressing and reflects the type of politics of personal destruction this country is tired of seeing. Sen. Clinton is a much better person than her campaign is portraying her to be right now."

I think Petey should drop out for the good of the blog.

The divisiveness in 1968 was so bitter because it was deeply ideological -- an absolute gulf between two deeply divergent views of the Vietnam War. Also, the election came at the end of a traumatic year in which two major figures were assassinated -- King and RFK. The latter probably would have won the nomination and unified the party. It was gut wrenching, a deep wound that was hard to heal.

Clinton and Obama have virtually identical stands on the issues. Their supporters differ on matters of leadership style, gender and race to some extent, and a host of other factors. They're more like consumer product choice differences than ideological ones. It's not as if Mac and PC users can't work together.

The Democrats are lucky to have two great candidates. The longer they campaign, the better the public gets to know them, and they can eventually unite as a dream team. Meanwhile, McCain won't know who to campaign against. Good plan. Party on!

I heard Chuck Todd talking last night that one of the candidates needs to win a state on the other candidates turf. You know, Hillary wins NC, or Obama wins IN, for example. But didn't Obama already do that in Wisconsin, or am I missing something?

John Hagee is controversial, but hardly because he is an anti-Semite. His ministry is one of the most philo-Semitic in the world.

Meaning, as a Christian Zionist, John Hagee believes, and preaches, that Jesus Christ will not return until all of Israel, meaning the Jewish people, are gathered into the state of Israel.

He is also quick to prophesy against apostate Jews, and Christians for that matter, who turn their backs on Torah or Jesus Christ (respectively). That is simply taking Jews to task for not being faithful. In this, he is no more an anti-Semite than most Orthodox rabbis.

And, yes, he believes in the Book of Revelation, that the Jews will be the first to be offered the choice of conversion or death at God's hand. But the key phrase is "at God's hand." Not the hand of man.

In the here and now, Israel, and Jews, have not got a steadier friend than John Hagee.

Nice post.

I'm waiting for Obama to fully engage McCain so that his nebulous strategy for "honorable" withdrawal from Iraq can be tested. Leaving Iraq is going to be ugly, and once the consequences are spelled out it's going to give a lot of people pause.

I believe that Obama will make a compelling case that he's less likely than McCain to make Iraq-like mistakes in the future, but we have a problem right now, and many people want a clearer picture of what, given his superior judgment, he thinks we ought to do.

Obama can't afford to fill in the blanks while fighting a competitive primary -- the anti-war vote would sink him. (Nor could Clinton, for that matter, but I don't expect her to be the nominee.) So, we wait...

I love the casual assumption by the Hillarybots that it's going to be a simple thing for the superdelegates to nullify an Obama lead in the pledged delegates...

Andrew's post, above, is spot on. Simple? No. Certainly possible. Hillary's job from here should be to close the gap and build the narrative, so that she can make a credible run at them. My guess is that if he emerges with a 100 delegate lead or less, the supers are in play.

And can we please stop with the tiresome habit of calling people "bots" (of all stripes)? Blech.

I continue to bash away at the question of what the tipping point is for the superdelegates...

The other question, in the very unlikely event this hasn't been decided by summer, is what polling tells us about which candidate is likeliest to beat McCain. In the absence of solid evidence that it's Clinton, I don't think the superdelegates will nullify the pledged delegates; the long term damage would be too great.

And at some point we're going to need to see state-by-state polling on the separate candidates v. McCain. Obama seems to have the edge nationally, but I wonder if some of that edge isn't because he does better than Clinton in states that are going to be red anyway. I believe in the 50 state strategy and I suspect Clinton doesn't, but whether Utah is lost by 40 or 50 points isn't really a pro-Obama argument in the short run.

If Clinton is close to Obama--it would have to be a lot closer than it is now--AND if she has solid data showing that she has a better chance than Obama in Ohio, Virginia, Florida, Iowa, Wisconsin, Missouri etc, then she would have a shot at swinging things.

I think the seeds of a Hagee problem for McCain have been well-planted for the fall campaign, when whoever wins the Dem nomination can run ads about it and shear off some Catholic voters that McCain will really need in swing states like OH & PA & MO. Obviously the media are not going to focus on it, or anything to do with McCain, while this titanic Dem struggle is going on.

I heard Chuck Todd talking last night that one of the candidates needs to win a state on the other candidates turf. You know, Hillary wins NC, or Obama wins IN, for example. But didn't Obama already do that in Wisconsin, or am I missing something?

Obama had won everywhere in the Midwest before last night, and Wisconsin is a border state for him, so no. But I think Connecticut does qualify. New Mexico, given its Latino population, also would have qualified had Obama been able to pull it out.

Petey: Misreading numbers and tricking yourself into thinking you have The Math is always pretty damn dangerous in politics.

Given your predilection for miracles over math, I take it you support Clinton only because your first choice Huckabee dropped out?

"I don't think the superdelegates will nullify the pledged delegates; the long term damage would be too great."

Conversely, I don't think the caucus delegates will nullify the popular vote winner.

Whoever wins late is going to be the nominee, and if your version of the math can't accommodate that, I think it means you don't have a particularly firm grasp on how nomination mechanics work.

Petey,

I just have to ask you this: Most people think Obama's coat-tails will be much longer than Clinton's. I know you were obsessed with this issue with regards to Edwards. Do you no longer care about this issue (seems unlikely b/c you're desparate for UHC), or do you just disagree with the current projections, as far as that goes?

Petey,
You don't think the caucus delgates will nullify the popular vote winner or you don't think they should? So I assume if he still has the lead in the popular vote, does that mean you are willing to concede that he won? I doubt it. Your story will change as long as the numbers don't support you.

If nothing else, some in the Clinton camp will see the results last night as vindication for going hard negative at Obama.

Seeing this over on Fallows page seems to indicate that's the game plan they're gonna run with:

In a live CNN interview just now, Sen. Clinton repeated, twice, the "Sen. McCain has a lifetime of experience, I have a lifetime of experience, Sen. Obama has one speech in 2002" line.

I was disgusted when I heard her say it prior to the primaries last night. However, I was willing to write it off as a poor choice of attack she would regret and back down from. But here she is today continuing to repeat it. By asserting the Republican nominee's qualifications as better than any Democratic party nominee, much less the current delegate leader, leaves little doubt that she has no reservations damaging the party or any of its members in her quest for the nomination.

Isn't the big problem that BOTH candidates now have the incentive to thoroughly trash the other? Either they win -- in which case the trashing was worth it -- or they lose, in which case they make it much more likely that they will be the nominee against McCain in 2012.

This seems like a classic tragedy-of-the-commons situation to me. And the only solution in that case is for the DNC/superdelegates to step in and end this ASAP, before the attack machines really get whirring.

In order not to lose the "loser's" supporters in 2008, they'd probably have to come to an arrangement whereby (1) this candidate would be the VP on the ticket, (2) this candidate would receive substantial-to-overwhelming DNC support in 2012 (if they lost in 2008) or 2016 (if they won), and (3) this candidate would be virtually outcast from the Democratic party if they refused the arrangement.

This is the BEST post about the Democratic primary that has ever been written. Seriously!

Obama supporters are like Browncoats and Clinton supporters are like Buffy fans.

"Your story will change as long as the numbers don't support you."

It works that way on both sides. Both sides are playing Calvinball.

Neither side is going to get to 2025 by earned delegates, and it's close enough that whoever ends ups winning late is going to win the thing.

The Obama camp will protest that caucus delegates are legitimate and superdelegates are illegitimate. The Clinton camp will make the opposite argument. Whoever ends up being ahead in popular votes will claim that mantle. Whoever is ahead in popular votes from Democrats (which will be Clinton) will claim that mantle.

At the end of the day, whoever ends the voting on a roll is going to be the nominee. It's really that simple at this point. And the folks who claim the math works some other way are ignorant.

I'll see your Hagee and raise you Farrakhan and Wright. That being said, McCain needs to do some more "distancing".

Top Ten Reasons for Hillary Clinton to drop out:

1. She is losing in pledged delegates.

2. She is losing in total delegates.

3. She has lost the most states.

4. Where she has won, she's done it by not quite blowing the HUGE leads she started with.

5. She has no honorable path to the nomination.

6. By staying in and forcing her opponent into a negative war, she will damage the eventual nominee and aid the Republicans.

7. The next seven weeks are going to be personally excruciating for her. She and her husband will receive a level of scrutiny they haven't experienced since the 90s, but this time it will be coming from respected voices in their own party.

8. If she goes all out and loses, she will scuttle any chance she had of leading the Senate.

9. She is more likely to permanently damage the Democratic party than she is to win the White House.

10. She can help to ensure that Democrats regain the presidency and help to elect the first African-American president.

It should indeed be borne in mind that there is no "math" which is going to be run to decide the Democratic nominee: it will be done by an actual institution (the Democratic National Committee, I guess, unless there's something more specific, so whoever it is), and that institution will be run by actual people, and tremendous arguments will be deployed by both the Clinton and Obama campaigns, and it really doesn't matter what people speculate "the math" means.

And that is true of both the people who think that the delegate lead favors Obama and the people who think the popular vote count favors Clinton.

Gore didn't become President based on his popular vote advantage, because that wasn't the institutional force(s) which were responsible.

Similarly I don't think there's any written document outlining simple rules under which the candidate with a plurality of delegates wins.

That's why right now I see a Clinton advantage, because they will do anything necessary to win that final fight, and Obama won't.

Petey,
It doesn't neccesarily work that way on both sides. The numbers support Obama right now. And yes, I clearly see the portion that you so helpfully put in bold for me. But he's still winning, and he'll most likely have the popular vote when the convention rolls around. If he doesn't, I agree that Hillary has a much better stance. But if he's winning the delegates AND the popular vote, forget about it.

"She can help to ensure that Democrats regain the presidency and help to elect the first African-American president."

Electing Obama based on the symbolism of him being the "first African-American president" is the ultimate bait & switch. Obama is an opportunist and chameleon whose background is completely divorced from that of real African-Americans. Real African-Americans are the descendants of slaves brought here from West Africa; Obama is the descendant, on his father's side, of East African slave owners.

Obama is more closely related to Dick Cheney than he is to most African Americans.

Why Clinton should stay in:
- she is winning in the states that the Democrats normally carry.
- Obama is only winning in swing states, and states that the Republicans normally carry.
- winning the Democratic safe states is sufficient reason to get the nomination. Winning the swing states is irrelevant. After all, we have had a Democratic President for the last 8 years, right?

El Cid,
You can support whatever candidate you want, but you can't really believe that there is "a Clinton advantage." There is no possible way to think that she is in the most advantageous position. While it could very well come down to the superdelegates, she certainly has no advantage right now. You, sir, are delusional.

"it will be done by an actual institution (the Democratic National Committee, I guess, unless there's something more specific, so whoever it is)"

The Convention itself is the institution, not the DNC.

And the convention is a pretty weak institution, and will bend to the zeitgeist, which is why winning late is going to end up being decisive.

Own the late momentum, and you're going to own the nomination.

Nice, Fred. You Clinton types just keep getting classier.

At the end of the day, whoever ends the voting on a roll is going to be the nominee.

OK, let's see, we've got Wyoming, Mississippi, Pennsylvania, Oregon, North Carolina, Indiana, Kentucky, West Virginia, Nebraska, and Montana ahead of us. Let's say the candidates split 5-5. Clinton wins the biggest remaining state (Pennsylvania); Obama wins the last Top 10 state contested (North Carolina). Define "roll."

"Why Clinton should stay in"

Universal healthcare.

That's why Clinton should stay in. That's why she's going to be the nominee. And that's why she's going to be the next President.

Obama went right when he should have gone left, and he's going to leave a lot of his supporters disappointed as a result.

the bottom line is this:

Obama can go negative if he wants--strike that--Obama can raise "contrasts" which will be spun by the media as negative all he wants, but unless he can reclaim the moral highground, it will be an exercise in futility.

HRC doesnt have to knock him out, she just has to tarnish him. everyone knows the clintons are corrupt and morally flexible; so for all the "why wont she release her tax returns," clinton will say, "why wont you release your rezko documents..." and its like mutually assured destruction. and clinton wins M.A.D.

he has to do a till you drop presser and regain the moral highground. if he can show that he is not dirty, then he can just keep pounding home the idea that the clintons will say anything to get elected. and that, my friends, is a winning argument.

Petey,
Realistically, what do you REALLY think the odds are of Hillary being the next President of the Unites States. Please be serious.

The spectacle of Fred claiming he gets to say who counts as a "real" African-American is grimly amusing.

HRC doesnt have to knock him out, she just has to tarnish him. everyone knows the clintons are corrupt and morally flexible; so for all the "why wont she release her tax returns," clinton will say, "why wont you release your rezko documents..." and its like mutually assured destruction. and clinton wins M.A.D.

But he does have to show that he can effectively respond to mud -- sling it, dodge it, whatever. It'll happen in the general anyway; proving that he can disarm some of those criticisms or strike back would make me *far* more confident of his chances in November. Those "negatives" will be coming anyway.

Petey,

HRC won't win shit until she tells the American people how she plans to enforce her mandate.

for all the nonsense she spins about how her "solutions" are substance and Obama's proposals are rhetoric, she is dead silent on the most critical aspect of her plan. how this critical point hasn't become a bigger deal astounds me.

oh wait, i know, the media is actually in her tank and have always been: since they never, NEVER, have questioned her experiece except to say she has it. Never talked about her "solutions" as a senator, which, by the way... can you please point to some significant legislative victories for HRC as a Senator, cause i'm coming up short?

And don't give me her line about "providing millions of kids with health care" because that was SCHIP and she was First Lady during that time. that, like most things, is her trying to "blur the lines" between her own record and Bill's.

She's been able to shuck and jive and hedge the issue because BHO hasn't really pushed it, but in a general election against a republican, "garnish your wages" will be the new black.

"The spectacle of Fred claiming he gets to say who counts as a "real" African-American is grimly amusing."

I'd venture that I have more personal knowledge of African Americans than most of the commenters on this blog -- not that it requires any special insight to see the difference between a descendant of slaves from West Africa versus a descendant of slave owners from East Africa.

El Cid,

You can support whatever candidate you want, but you can't really believe that there is "a Clinton advantage." There is no possible way to think that she is in the most advantageous position. While it could very well come down to the superdelegates, she certainly has no advantage right now. You, sir, are delusional.

Posted by Todd Doug

I'm not a Clinton supporter. Far from it. Perhaps you could accuse me of being a cynic. I was voicing my own intuitions of how I see things turning out -- and that's fine if you see that cynical prognostication as delusional. I didn't think there was any way someone could read my comments as complimentary to or endorsing the prognostication, just that I see it working out that way. Maybe not.

But right now I don't have any clear evidence that the Party decision-makers, who will actually make this nomination, will be as brutally and simply persuaded by "the math" as many argue. That's it.

I'd venture that I have more personal knowledge of African Americans than most of the commenters on this blog

Pure wankery. What, concretely, do you know about the "personal knowledge of African-Americans" of the commenters of this blog? Be specific, with reference to specific commenters, in a way that grounds your statistical claim.

Fred,
Most people of African descent don't even know what portion of Africa they descend from. You are an idiot, and your point is ridiculous. Most likely, you are a troll. Otherwise, you're just wrong.

"HRC won't win shit until she tells the American people how she plans to enforce her mandate."

Did you sleep through February?

Clinton came out in favor of automatic enrollment.

Petey, at some point you have to face reality. There is no way Hillary Clinton wins this nomination. She's behind in delegates. She will remain behind in delegates. Super delegates aren't going to save your ass. For one, they don't want to. For another... do you know how easy it would be to convince 2 million young people to converge on that convention in Denver? As easy as posting a video on You Tube. Just how brave do you really think these super delegates are?

We could make Chicago 68 look like Woodstock.

I can only guarantee one thing: I will never vote for Hillary Clinton for anything. I, like most black Democrats, have been appalled at the Clinton campaign day after day. I won't ever vote for her, even on a ticket with Obama at the top; it simply won't happen. And since Rush Limbaugh is now supporting her in the primary, I can't even see how any other Democrat would.

Imagine 20-30 million black voters not voting for the Democratic candidate: that's what'll happen with Hillary at this point . Someone tell me how she wins the general with that occurrence, 'cause I can't see it, I know it'll happen. Hubert Humphrey was fighting with another white guy; no black voters would have punished him for that. Do you think this year is similar?

I can only guarantee one thing: I will never vote for Hillary Clinton for anything. I, like most black Democrats, have been appalled at the Clinton campaign day after day. I won't ever vote for her, even on a ticket with Obama at the top; it simply won't happen. And since Rush Limbaugh is now supporting her in the primary, I can't even see how any other Democrat would.

Imagine 20-30 million black voters not voting for the Democratic candidate: that's what'll happen with Hillary at this point . Someone tell me how she wins the general with that occurrence, 'cause I can't see it, I know it'll happen. Hubert Humphrey was fighting with another white guy; no black voters would have punished him for that. Do you think this year is similar?

El Cid: I don't have any clear evidence that the Party decision-makers, who will actually make this nomination, will be as brutally and simply persuaded by "the math" as many argue.

They'll be persuaded by the prospect of how African Americans would respond to having party insiders overturn the math and "steal" Obama's victory.

El Cid,
Fair enough. But even the most cynical among us can't think that Hillary has the 'advantage.' Right?

Brad L,

You're right about him needed to show he can throw a punch, but he may not even make it to the general unless he can prevent the clinton spin machine from labeling him as "just another (shady) politician."

it's like the clinton's deal with the speeches: they can't beat him in inspiration so they try to make inspiration feel dirty.


they certainly can't beat him in integrity, so they'll try to use the appearance of guilt to suggest actual guilt.

this is how its always been done, but if Obama is going to play in the mud with Clinton, he has to do so in a way that makes him look like he is stooping down to engage her because she lives down in the dirt. and this (non)strategy of ignoring a growing call for clarity on rezko is the ONLY sure fire way for Obama to shoot himself in the foot.

so my point was, hold a presser NOW, answer all the questions, contrast how HE is willing to admit mistakes and SHE is not, and try to shift the conversation back to why Clinton feels she can attack Obama on issues where she herself is exceptionally vulnerable, moreso even.

but none of this will be done until he can reclaim the moral highground, like McCain did after the Times story broke. For BHO to do a full disclosure now, he can shake off all attempted attacks on him in the future as the Same Old Politics of Personal Destruction, et cetera.