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Religious Accommodation

06 Mar 2008 01:11 pm

There are several gyms available for use by Harvard students. It seems that one of them is now a bit special:

Six times a week, Harvard kicks all the guys out of the Quadrangle Recreational Athletic Center at the request of the Harvard Islamic Society. This is to accommodate those female Muslim students whose faith won’t let them work out in front of men.

I'd need to think a bit more about it before I was sure whether or not this was a reasonable accommodation to make to the needs of Muslim students, but I'm positive I'd think a bit more about it before I went and wrote something like Andrew's post titled "Sharia at Harvard":

They would never do that kind of thing for any other religion. If a religion refuses to allow men and women to work out together in public, then its adherents need to work out at home. What's next? Removing all gay men from the locker-room? This is the West, guys. Get over yourselves.

Suppose I were to inform Andrew that Harvard, like all American institutions of higher education of which I'm aware, shuts down and creates a holiday in late December that just so happens to coincide with an important familial and religious observance for Christians whereas no such allowance is made for Passover visits. Christianism? Worse, it happens in public high schools and elementary schools all across the country, the very same country in which no mail can be delivered on Sunday! Meanwhile, when I was a student at Harvard there was a ban on having anything on fire in a dorm room and also a movement to create an exemption so that Jewish students could light Hanukkah candles. I don't recall whether or not the exemption was granted, but if it was that certainly wouldn't constitute the dawning of a new era of Jewish theocratic rule at the university. I know for a fact that they allow students to reschedule exams for religious reasons, like a Jewish or Muslim obligation to avoid taking an exam on a Saturday (no exams are scheduled on Sundays).

There's a range of things one can think about these policies. The preferential treatment granted by public institutions to Christmas rankles, but given the vast number of Christmas-celebrators in the country it's also inevitable and practical. The "no mail on Sundays" thing is poor public policy and obviously has religious origins of a sort, but it's hardly some intolerable burden on minorities, it's just bad public policy. Letting people reschedule exams for religious reasons, but not just because they happen to feel like taking them in some other order, seems like an eminently fair and practical way of dealing with the situation. New York City public schools make the Jewish High Holy Days a day off, due to the city's large Jewish population, most other jurisdictions don't do that but will look the other way if Jewish kids don't show up -- reasonable responses to the objective situation in both cases.

Finding a way to accommodate observant Muslims' concerns about co-ed workouts, in short, is hardly some per se outrageous violation of a strict U.S. tradition of secularism. Is the particular way they've done this unduly burdensome? I think to say whether or not it is you'd need to look at the situation and the available alternatives in some detail.

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Comments (327)

The difference, Matt, is that non-Christians (hey, even atheists like me!) get Christmas off too. Nobody's disadvantaged. Can you say that about shutting women out of the rec center?

You're confusing US government policy with Harvard policy. Harvard shuts down for Christmas because it is a federal holiday, like Memorial Day or Thanksgiving. It does not, for example, have an Easter break, as Christian schools generally do.

The point Andrew is (rather crudely) trying to make is that Harvard policy seems to be more sensitive towards Muslim concerns than they would be to Christian or Jewish ones. After all, this is the school where Leverett and Cabot House banned Christmas trees from the dining hall.

think a bit more about it

before posting is, as a general matter, sound advice from which Andrew Sullivan would benefit.

Oh Matt, you didn't know? Sullivan's views on Arabs, Muslims, and the Middle East are Churchillian.

Matt, you fail at analogies. It's the exclusion of others from public facilities that's important here.

As for no mail on Sunday, do you really want to pay for an extra day of mail? Hire more mail carriers?

Also, I can't cook in kosher-designated kitchens on campus!

In fairness, there's something annoying about this that doesn't annoy me regarding the other things you've mentioned... maybe because if you're going to have a women-only gym, just make a women-only gym. Or, more likely, the fact that I simply find that sort of religious restriction that the women live under, and ask that other people work around, to be silly... but that's the thing-- I'm willing to admit that this accomodation bothers me because I don't like the religious practice itself, not because I'm all concerned about "losing our freedoms."

Not all of us are under the illusion that the fancies of the epileptic and bloodthirsty polygamist pederast, who inspired a reign of terror from Java to Granada, have as much truth or validity as the Sermon on the Mount.

Also, Christmas is no longer an exclusively Christian holiday. You have the Christian Christmas, with nativity scenes, angels, Silent Night, and O Little Town of Bethlehem. You also have the secular Christmas, with the Christmas tree, Santa, Frosty the Snowman, candy canes and colored lights. The latter is just as much a secular holiday as the 4th of July. And I say that as an atheist.

Sullivan was right. The practice is ridiculous. The difference with time off school is that EVERYONE gets the time off school. If I was a male student getting kicked out of the gym because of some freak's belief in the supernatural, I would be super pissed.

The most important part of Matt's post is the sentence at the beginning saying that there are several gyms on campus, and that only one has the single sex policy at a limited time of the day. That to me mitigates most of this, as it means that nobody is really being deprived by this accomodation.

And while it is true that everybody gets X-mas off (Woo-hoo if you're not a Christian), the failure to provide the same benefit for Passover (or Ramadan) means one group is being disadvantaged in the comparison.

The underlying article Andrew links to is also part of an embarassing anti-Arab rant, so I think it loses some credibility by association.

I'm surprised you totally missed the distinction here, Matt.

"Six times a week, Harvard kicks all the guys out of the Quadrangle Recreational Athletic Center..."

Replace the word "guys" with "Jews" or "Blacks" (or take your pick - Native Americans maybe). Would you still feel ok with this?

It's really bald-face discrimination - it's right up there with banning blacks and women from country clubs. Maybe it's their right to do so as a private institution, but decent people should really be disgusted.

My problem with this would not be the religious accomadation, it's fair for schools to do that as they see fit. But the subtext of Andrews point, I think, is that this is an accomodation that flies in the face of generally accepted Western norms i.e. women and men can be at the gym together. It is rooted in what, I believe, is a deeply sexist islamic belief, that women cannot expose themselves to men because their inherent sexuality will tempt men in bad ways. That is my problem with it.

But on the other hand say a group of women who had been raped or sexually abused came to the school and stated that they were uncomfortable working out in the gym with men there and requested some women-only gym time. How would we (or Andrew) feel about that?

As for no mail on Sunday, do you really want to pay for an extra day of mail? Hire more mail carriers?

I, for one, very much do want to pay for an extra day of mail, and if it creates some more jobs I don't count that as a bad thing.

That said, I do think there is a difference between an accomodation that is religious in origin but falls pretty much equally upon everyone (christmas, stuff being closed on sunday), and a religious accomodation that is actively discriminatory (throwing one gender out of the building).

"The difference, Matt, is that non-Christians (hey, even atheists like me!) get Christmas off too. Nobody's disadvantaged..."

Exactly. The problem with the Harvard decision, and other such concessions to "Muslim sensibilities", is that they are using their religious beliefs to EXCLUDE others (in this case, men), to cater to Muslim-separateness. Witness the recent attempt by Muslim cabbies in Minneapolis to not give rides to anyone carrying alcohol, appearing to be drunk, or traveling with animals. There's a university in England (not sure which one offhand) that recently decided to have one of its cafeterias stop serving any food that did not meet Muslim dietary restrictions. As always, the reasons given were "we must be tolerant and supportive of the religious beliefs of others..." and other PC blather. The implicit message was that non-Muslims who wanted to eat non-Koran-approved food weren't welcome. That cafeteria has now become de-facto Muslim-only. Students belonging to other religious groups received no such accomodation--not the Orthodox Jews, not the Hindi, not the Buddhists, no one. Why? Because the students belonging to those faiths made no such arrogant, exclusionary demands.

So now Harvard, in the name of tolerance, is tolerating the intolerant. What's next? Muslim-only dorms?

One should also note that the "Quadrangle" is one of the most distant outposts of Harvard. Not only are there many athletic workout facilities at Harvard, but the only one being set aside for women-only workout hours is the most isolated, distant one. (I'm assuming that "Quadrangle" refers to "the Quad", here)

Sullivan's post is not merely offensive in its casual claims of Sharia, it is also factually incorrect. for example, Harvard makes the gym available for 6 HOURS per week, not six TIMES per week. I have emailed Sullivan to point out how offensive and inaccurate his piece is, but he has not bothered to correct it or respond. Given his slur on Harvard, if he does not take steps to remedy the situation, with an apology on his blog, I intend to ask the Office of the General Counsel at Harvard to intervene and seek redress. Please read the following story, which accurately reviews the situation:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,334992,00.html

Sullivan's posting is shockingly unprofessional, clearly exploits anti-Muslim sentiment, and misrepresents the actions and motivations of the Harvard community.

I think if you view religous belief through a Hitchensian lense, as a disability, than this move by Harvard is just a reasonable accomodation of one's disability as required by the Americans with Disabilities Act. It's no different than allowing some students to have seperate note-takers or take untimed exams. Frankly, I'm a little surprised Harvard doesn't already have a seperate women-only gym.

And just out of curiousity, if you're transgendered, can you still use the gym with the rest of the Muslim women? Does it make a difference if you're MTF to FTM? Or where you are in the conversion process?

I'm just sayin'...

Andrew's overdoing it as usual, but I still think this is terrible policy. However it's spun, the concrete steps here are to restrict the actions of one group of students in order to prevent offending another. That's a deeply illiberal thing to do, and in a multicultural society, not at all practical in the long run. And yes--more dominant social and religious groups do the same thing all the time, but that doesn't make it right.

On a less abstract level, there are a couple of Muslim women at my gym who work out wearing hijab, but don't--at least to my uninformed eye--otherwise restrict themselves. How accepted would this be vs. gender segregation for most Muslims?

The preferential treatment granted by public institutions to Christmas rankles,

It rankles? Are you that bitter toward Christians and European traditions in general? It's not as if people are forced to go to mass or anything. To be honest, I've never really understood the bitterness a lot of American Jews hold toward Christmas - a)it honors the birth of a very famous Jew, b) most of what we consider American Christmas traditions were in fact created by American Jews in the first place. It's the most American of holidays, and an important part of being American, Christian or not. It's interesting that non-Jewish, non-Christians don't seem to feel the same bitterness. The Japanese have even adopted the holiday as their own.

Hector and Craigory are right -- this can all be determined by a simple, objective analysis of whose religions are sillier, upon which we will all naturally agree.

Well, I think it all depends on how many female Muslim students want it and how many hours a week we're talking about.

If it's five students and five hours a week, it's ridiculous. But if it's eighty students and five hours for one of Harvard's many gyms, maybe less so.

These sort of questions should be approached as practical rather than absolute ideological issues, which would make sense both from a utilitarian view and from protecting everyone from needless "emotional suffering". After all, if verdict goes against the Muslim girls, you're really just telling them to find more Muslim girls who care about what they're asking for.

Andrew's overdoing it as usual, but I still think this is terrible policy. However it's spun, the concrete steps here are to restrict the actions of one group of students in order to prevent offending another. That's a deeply illiberal thing to do, and in a multicultural society, not at all practical in the long run. And yes--more dominant social and religious groups do the same thing all the time, but that doesn't make it right.

On a less abstract level, there are a couple of Muslim women at my gym who work out wearing hijab, but don't--at least to my uninformed eye--otherwise restrict themselves. How accepted would this be vs. gender segregation for most Muslims?

I think Matt is comparing apples with oranges. This is not about religious accommodation per se, e.g. making exceptions to certain rules so that people are able to observe the commandments of their religion.

This is about enabling religious groups to shield themselves from the values and liberties characteristic for western societies (for example, gender equality) because these values and liberties hurt their religious sensibilities, and while doing so, restricting the rights of non-believers.

Nobody should force female Muslims to go to op-ed gyms if they think Islam forbids this. But they can not expect that a public institution (which Harvard is in a wider sense of the word) throws men out of a public facility to cater to their belief.

Six hours? Six minutes would be six minutes too many.

I have no use for Andrew Sullivan, and I would have no use for Christians, or adherents of any other delusion, if they were to demand this kind of exclusionary special treatment in public or quasi-public accommodations. (For example, I would object vehemently if such a policy were enacted due to the demands of, say, ultra-Orthodox Jews.)

but I still think this is terrible policy. However it's spun, the concrete steps here are to restrict the actions of one group of students in order to prevent offending another. That's a deeply illiberal thing to do, and in a multicultural society, not at all practical in the long run. And yes--more dominant social and religious groups do the same thing all the time, but that doesn't make it right.

Ding ding ding ding ding!

Well put

"I, for one, very much do want to pay for an extra day of mail, and if it creates some more jobs I don't count that as a bad thing."

I do if it makes mail more expensive.

The "no mail on Sundays" thing is poor public policy ...

Really? Even assuming arguendo everyone gave up religion tomorrow, wouldn't it still be good public policy to have one day off a week?

The particularly confusing thing about Sullivan's post is the implication that "they" would not do this thing for any other religion, as if Muslims are widely given preferences and favors in American society. Is there really a pro-Muslim bias in the US? Isn't this taking the typical reactionary argument "I have nothing against members of group X, I just oppose special rights for group X" a tad past the plausible (even for Sullivan) when it comes to Muslims in America...

Vanya,

To argue that Jesus was a Jew is to overemphasize His humanity at the expense of His divinity. He was God, first and foremost, and chose to become a man only secondarily. Moreover he was a Jew only in the ethnic sense (not the religious). Judaism lacks the concepts of the Incarnation, the Substitutionary Atonement, etc.

Boo-hoo, njt. Its a ridiculous practice whether its six hours or six days. While all religions are ridiculous, the fact that we tolerate Islam's intolerence is appalling. It is an insane religion, relatively speaking. And that's saying something.

Nobody should force female Muslims to go to op-ed gyms

Is that where Maureen Dowd, David Brooks and Richard Cohen work out? NOBODY should be forced to go to that gym!

Bear in mind that this is not only for Muslim women. Any woman who wants to work out in a single-sex environment can take advantage of this -- and I'll bet that turns out to be the case. Sure, some people, male and female, regard a gym as a meat market. But women with body image issues, or those who don't want to be ogled, might feel more comfortable without men around. We're only talking one hour per day, in only one gym. Don't have a cow, man.

When Sullivan claims that Curves, the gym for women, is offensive for exluding men not just 6 hours per week, but all the time, and not just in an isolated corner of Cambridge, but right in Central and Porter Squares, I will be a little bit more sympathetic to his POV.

To a degree, colleges do feel that it's their mission to promote a certain environment that will not, in the end, accommodate some people's religious beliefs. I believe that some Jewish students at Yale were point blank told that the university would not enforce the chastity of their students and would not allow them to live off-campus their first year to accomodate their belief that living in the sinful on-campus dorms offended their religious sensibilities.

At best, the 6-hours-per-week issue raises a slippery slope problem. But universities manage to maintain kosher-only kitchens and such while at the same time telling students that if they want a school dedicated to complete immersion of their religious practices to look someplace else.

Matt - are you high? For Harvard, of all places, to coddle this kind of irrational hate (and, in the end, the Moslem theological fear of womens' bodies is all about hate) is immoral and indefensible. Maybe you are too young to remember, but in the Jim Crow south, drinking fountains and swimming pools were segregated de jure. How does this differ?

Or is it that you honestly believe primitive Moslems deserve special treatment, and are entitled to an imposed accomodation of their anti-social conduct?

This kind of "sensitivity" does nothing but reinforce the power of the most regressive and reactionary forces in the Moslem community, and retards their social integration. The fact is, A woman who wants to live in accordance with 7th Century superstition is free to move to Saudi, or Qatar, or Egypt, or Gaza. As a point of principal, the American students at Harvard should not be obligated to change their lives because a tiny group of mental cases insists on indulging their pathologies.

There are some posters who argue that men are being deprived of amenity in being forbidden to exercise during the 6 hours that are reserved for Muslim women at one, relatively isolated Harvard gym.

First, this omits the facts that the main, centrally located Harvard gym, the MAC, is available during those hours, and is substantially larger and with more facilities. There is no significant loss of male amenity here, and to pretend otherwise is simply inaccurate.

Second, when considering the arguments of those claiming that men are unfairly treated by this policy, it might be remembered that religious groups have been shown due tolerance in such matters as food and clothing on university campuses, because the university should be a place of tolerance and diversity, not narrowly western and effectively atheistic. On the arguments these people have advanced, we should remove kosher foods for dininghalls, ban prayergroups of any tradition, and effectively forbid the expression of an religious identity on campus. After all, those who eat religiously prescribed foods, or use a space for a religious meeting are effectively depriving the non-religious of dininghall space, and campus space as a whole. It is hard to see that such an argument is tolerant or favours diversity. Rather it privileges a small, non-religious group at the expense of all others.

In sum, you cannot have a diverse, tolerant society without recognizing that diverse groups need a particular space for the expression of their identity. To deny them that space is implicitly condoning repression, and rejecting the need for diversity.

By the way, the "quadrangle", I am presuming, is the former Radcliffe campus. (It's where I lived back in the 70s when I was in college.) A lot of students live there, and it's quite a distance from the other recreational facilities, so there is a genuine inconvenience here. (Not to mention the irony of having this policy at what used to be Radcliffe!)

Look, a group of Harvard Klansmen are offended by having to work out with blacks. I assume Matthew thinks it is OK for Harvard, to accomodate the wishes of its Klansmen community, to exclude blacks from one gym for a few hours a week, right?

Come on, Matthew, it's not that difficult to figure out. The problem isn't making an accomodation for a religious community, it's making an accomodation to promote intolerance.


The difference, Matt, is that non-Christians (hey, even atheists like me!) get Christmas off too. Nobody's disadvantaged.

An even remotely observant Jew has to use a vacation day during Yom Kippur, unless they're lucky enough to work for a place that needs to be open on Christmas and can find a Gentile cow-orker to trade days with. There's no such restriction for a Gentile, even though a Jew going to work on Yom Kippur has committed a far greater violation of his or her religious beliefs than a Christian working on Christmas would have (in Israel, even television and radio broadcasts are suspended during Yom Kippur -- by law). So, for the expenditure of one vacation day, a Jew gets Yom Kippur and Christmas off, while a Christian gets Christmas and any one day of their choosing off. The latter combination has the advantage of greater flexibility. Like Matt says, this state of affairs may be inevitable, but it isn't equality.

Matt - are you high? For Harvard, of all places, to coddle this kind of irrational hate (and, in the end, the Moslem theological fear of womens' bodies is all about hate) is immoral and indefensible. Maybe you are too young to remember, but in the Jim Crow south, drinking fountains and swimming pools were segregated de jure. How does this differ?

Or is it that you honestly believe primitive Moslems deserve special treatment, and are entitled to an imposed accomodation of their anti-social conduct?

This kind of "sensitivity" does nothing but reinforce the power of the most regressive and reactionary forces in the Moslem community, and retards their social integration. The fact is, A woman who wants to live in accordance with 7th Century superstition is free to move to Saudi, or Qatar, or Egypt, or Gaza. As a point of principal, the American students at Harvard should not be obligated to change their lives because a tiny group of mental cases insists on indulging their pathologies.

RKU, I think your position makes a lot more sense that hyperventilating about 'Dhimmi' or whatever, but I do think there are larger issues at play here. Anything that rests, in essence, on a right not to be offended strikes me as really problematic. It isn't just a matter of consumer choice. For the policy to be effective, there would have to be enforcement, and I can't imagine defending sanctions against any male student who violated purely religious mores.

And again, yes, yes, you can think of plenty of examples of Christians receiving similar (or more extensive) priviledges. But that's the fun of attacking the policy from the left--I really do condemn that just as much.

Even though playing the Nazi card is in pretty bad taste most of the time, I think BFR made the most clear point about why this seems so wrong: just imagine if they did this for those who don't want to have to exercise around Jews and Blacks.

The continued accommodation of particular traditions that have long been accommodated is quite different from a new accommodation. If we actually had mail delivery on Sundays and conservative Christian groups denounced it and sought to end it, would you need more time to reach an opinion on whether that was a reasonable accommodation?

Is there any indication that Harvard does not let other groups sign up for exclusive use of gym facilities in other circumstances?

For example, I play in a basketball league organized by my employer, and we have reserved certain basketball courts for our use at certain times. Now technically, that means the owner of those courts is excluding other people whenever we play. But that is simply a side-effect of us reserving it for our exclusive use.

Now, maybe you could argue that Harvard should not allow certain groups to do stuff like that, maybe based on an assessment of whether they have proper motives for the exclusion. So, for example, I could see distinguishing between our basketball league and a white supremacist basketball league (although in my ideal world, we would let them have their league, but make it observable and subject to widespread ridicule). And I guess this is what Andrew et al are arguing: these people have improper motives, so they should not be allowed to reserve gyms for their exclusive use.

But frankly, even though I am within the excluded class, I don't find myself caring. So, I am not sure I see the issue.

An even remotely observant Jew has to use a vacation day during Yom Kippur, unless they're lucky enough to work for a place that needs to be open on Christmas and can find a Gentile cow-orker to trade days with.
Wake me up when Yom Kippur becomes a quasi-secular holiday like Christmas. (Hell, even I celebrate it, and I despise all religions.)

One should also note that the "Quadrangle" is one of the most distant outposts of Harvard. Not only are there many athletic workout facilities at Harvard, but the only one being set aside for women-only workout hours is the most isolated, distant one.

It's not at all distant to the 25% of Harvard undergrads who live... in the Quad. Where are they supposed to go? Half of them are male, you know.

Fascinating to watch the comments and see exactly how ignorant, crude and unpleasant your average commentator is on this issue. Six hours a week in an isolated gym becomes the enforcement of Sharia law? Well, that's really the thin end of the Taleban wedge, isn't it? What next, a demand for.... oh, classes in Arabic? Discussions of the Koran? You know, we have both those things at Harvard, and have done for decades. No sign of Sharia here, kids. Honestly, you people are such knee-jerk bigots, yet you read a liberal blog, and I bet you claim to be tolerant. Grow up!

Nobody should force female Muslims to go to op-ed gyms

Is that where Maureen Dowd, David Brooks and Richard Cohen work out? NOBODY should be forced to go to that gym!

Ooops, of cause, I meant "co-ed gyms"

Geoff: imagine if there were a women-only gym on campus, and that there had always been one. Would we really be so worked up about it?

The reason the policy leaves a bad taste in our mouths is the following: the policy is a new one and the policy was brought in at the request of Muslim students to accommodate their religious beliefs on the matter.

Women-only gyms, single-sex dorms, and kosher-only kitchens (which, in my college, were in dorm suites populated entirely by kosher-following Jews) have been part of the university landscape for a long time. It's because we have a new policy advocated by a specific religion that we are bothered by this.

Harvard shuts down for Christmas because it is a federal holiday

Dude, the whole two-week period during which the university closes is not a federal holiday. That's a choice Harvard makes, and it's one which favors Christians.

Harvard policy seems to be more sensitive towards Muslim concerns than they would be to Christian or Jewish ones. After all, this is the school where Leverett and Cabot House banned Christmas trees from the dining hall.

If it's just those two houses, doesn't sound like an administration-imposed ban. I'd be curious to know what the mechanism was, and whether other religions' displays were also banned. (And if so, what your beef exactly?) But regardless, even if it was a ban from above, I don't see how the two instances are comparable.

In the one case the university's guiding principle seems to be: All students should be able to use common facilities to pursue physical fitness if they wish, and reasonable accomodations in scheduling should be made to let them do so without violating their religious or cultural prohibitions.

In the other case, the principle you seem to advocate is: Religious majorities should be able to publicly display religious icons of their particular faith to the exclusion of others.

Only one of these principles seems compatible with the mission of a secular university, it seems to me.

Oh, and:

non-Christians (hey, even atheists like me!) get Christmas off too. Nobody's disadvantaged.

Nobody's disadvantaged? How about Jewish students who would prefer to have a Passover break but don't get one, and who are instead forced to vacate the dorms and libraries during a period when (if they can't go to class) some of them would at least prefer to be studying?

Nobody's disadvantaged. Can you say that about shutting women [sic; men]out of the rec center?

Yes you can. Men can use any of the several other gyms on campus, or go at a different time. It's not far from your logic: Jews "get" Christmas off even though they'd prefer Passover; men "get" to use the MAC even though they'd prefer to use the QRAC.

"On the arguments these people have advanced, we should remove kosher foods for dininghalls, ban prayergroups of any tradition, and effectively forbid the expression of an religious identity on campus. After all, those who eat religiously prescribed foods, or use a space for a religious meeting are effectively depriving the non-religious of dininghall space, and campus space as a whole..."

Nice strawman. No, that's not it at all. I don't object to kosher food in the dining halls. I WOULD object to ultra-Orthodox Jews demanding the removal of NON-kosher food from the dining halls, because it offends their religious sensibilities. This is not about the inclusion of, or accomodation for, religious practices. It's about ONE religion's practicioners using their faith as a means of EXCLUDING non-believers. Can't you see the difference? Apparently, Harvard can't.

Claudius, the argument you call a straw man is cogent, and your laboured attempt to denounce it is simply wretchedly illogical. The point is that no-one loses significant amenity by allowing Muslim women 6 hours a week in an isolated gym. Likewise, no-one loses amenity by having kosher food in the dininghall. Your policy of kneejerk bigotry would demand we do both, since religious needs must, according to Claudius, never be met. That's simply dispicable, and your attempt to sneer your way out of it is morally indefensible.

At my college, I was transfered out of my Wednesday chemistry lab to accommodate a Jewish student who didn't want to go to the Friday afternoon (4-6) Chemistry lab (ends after sundown). And I had gotten up at 6AM to get a good spot in line on registration day specifically to avoid the Friday afternoon lab, which was understandably unpopular. But I still ended up in it because I wasn't Jewish. Who says the Muslims are the only ones being accommodated? And why wasn't Andrew complaining about it back then?

Claudius, any accommodation of any religious belief is essentially zero-sum. The mere existence of a kitchen on campus for cooking kosher food means that there's one-less kitchen around for cooking non-kosher food. Taking a day off for one religion means that an extra day needs to be added to the school calendar for each other holiday of another religion you want to observe.

It is just that in this case, the zero-sum nature of the matter is rather stark: there is a certain time of the day at a certain gym where the accommodation of one group's preferences (women who don't want to exercise in front of men) causes men to lose out.

The only way to obscure (not eliminate, obscure) this zero-sum situation is to simply build another gym and designate it women-only.

It's not at all distant to the 25% of Harvard undergrads who live... in the Quad. Where are they supposed to go? Half of them are male, you know.

Presumably they can go to the gym the other 100+ hours in the week.

An even remotely observant Jew has to use a vacation day during Yom Kippur

An even remotely observant American Catholic usually has to use a vacation day for Epiphany (a bank holiday in many Catholic countries) Easter Monday (a holiday in most Catholic countries), Good Friday (a holiday in most Catholic countries), Corpus Christi (a holiday in some Catholic countries). All of these are according to Catholic religious tradition more meaningful holidays than Christmas.

Claudius, no-one is losing the right to exercise because of these women. The main Harvard gym (and several others) are still available. I realize this seems terribly complex to you, but you get it into your head that no-one is being deprived of the right to exercise here. Your arguments are based on a total failure to grasp the reality of the situation.

Men can use any of the several other gyms on campus, or go at a different time. It's not far from your logic: Jews "get" Christmas off even though they'd prefer Passover; men "get" to use the MAC even though they'd prefer to use the QRAC.

I get it: Separate, but equal.

The policy is defensible, but the motivation for the policy still rankles.

One might notice that there is now a large nationwide chain of gyms that exclusively cater to women. There seems to be quite a bit of secular demand for facilities where women can work out without being leered at or hit on by men. I don't see anything wrong with a campus maintaining a certain number of gym hours for single-sex activities, if many students feel more comfortable in that environment. It's not inherently any worse than maintaining sex-segregated bathrooms.

But, of course, Harvard is under no obligation whatsoever to accomodate the bigoted attitudes of any religious group, especially not in ways that inconvenience other students. If the Muslim student complaints were the only rationale for the policy, then the administration should not have caved in.

Hey remember back before Rosa Parks when blacks had to sit in the back of the bus? We can just redefine our terms. Nobody was being banned from the front of the bus. We were just "accomodating" those people who didn't want to sit with blacks!

And why wouldn't that accomodation be reasonable? Blacks weren't excluded from the bus. They just had to sit in a different section!

Reasonable accomodations, people. That the people we are accomodating are bigots doesn't matter.

So what? The main gym on my campus closes down daily for a women-only hour, but that's more of a
'women feel intimidated around men at the gym' thing than any sort of religious accommodation.

"We're only talking one hour per day, in only one gym. Don't have a cow, man."

Separating women to this degree in Islam isn't universal. Islam in east Asia didn't start to get this hung up until the al-Sauds started pouring alms into the coffers of the Wahabists.

Islamic zealots would like nothing more than to extract from a western education only that that doesn't challenge their dogma.

Harvard likes to think it has a mission to shape the minds of the next elite. So shape them, don't cave to their comfort zone. If Harvard supports the theory that Islam hasn't had the opportunity for its Reformation yet, and that the opportunity would be a good thing, then the Administration shouldn't start developing a sub-culture that insulates certain students from the wider world.

A bit long winded for six hours a week? Sure. Is that six hours the camel's nose under the tent flap? We'll see.

Any religion that practices intolerance should be wiped off the face of the earth. By force if neccesary.

helteranius- You are a silly person.

Tyro, you make a good point, which is kind of the same as the one by henry evans. The newness is one reason it's particularly annoying. We've already had to accept a lot of age-old accommodations to superstitions. Over the last few decades, things have been moving pretty steadily away from that, so this seems like a step backwards - toward things like teaching creationism and prayer in public schools.

Craigory, I assume you are demanding your own eradication, judging by your crude and offensively intolerant remarks? Or was wit out of stock when you signed up for a mind?

Here's the problem Matt has forgotten about: now that the precedent has been set that this is a "reasonable" accomadation for Islam, what does Harvard say if a Christian sect (or heck, multiple sects) come in with their requests for separate times? What if Hindu groups come in with similar requests? This is a large can of worms, and it's best avoided completely

When I was in jr. high ('85-'87), we learned about "Moslems." Does anyone know when it became "Muslims"? Just curious...

That's also a good point, Geoff: we're so used to universities having more freedoms and fewer restrictions that when the clock looks like it's turning backwards, it rankles. We expect single-sex facilities on campus to remain the same or decline, not to expand. Chalk it up to Americans' believe in eternal progress.

jaswant,
Nope, you missed the point. I don't have to be tolerant of a religion that practices intolerance. Cute try, though. If what I said offended you, than you are obviously an idiot. And probably religious as well. Good luck with that.

Incidentally, further to Matt's point about Harvard: it's not like there isn't a GIANT CHRISTIAN CHURCH right in the CENTER OF CAMPUS.

(Which I think is a wonderful church, and Rev. Gomes is great, but it just further goes to support Matt's point.)

Sean, it's just another way of transcribing the same word. Muslim is more phonetically accurate, but Moslem was widely used until recently.

They're not excluding non-believers, just men.

Do you know that men are also excluded from HALF of the locker rooms in the gyms too! And not just for six hours a week but for 24 HOURS a DAY, 7 DAYS a WEEK, 52 WEEKS a YEAR!

Apparently some women do not like to dress and shower in front of men so the university has had to create SEPERATE lockerrooms for women. OUTRAGE!

Also, it would suck if you lived in river houses and had to walk up to the QRAC to work out. But I guess faith is faith.

Wow, I can't believe it took until Tyro posted fairly late in the thread to note that secular women-only gyms are ubiquitous across the country.

People are just upset that it's *Muslims* who asked for this. If the request came from women with body image or secular modesty concerns, we'd never hear about this.

maraschion and zilifant--

Six hours in one gym might not seem like a big deal, but how far are you prepared to let religiously-based exclusionary policies go?

this is an accomodation that flies in the face of generally accepted Western norms i.e. women and men can be at the gym together

Norms which are, in fact, of quite recent origin, historically. So some cultures haven't caught up to your norms yet. BFD. Cut them some slack.

just imagine if they did this for those who don't want to have to exercise around Jews and Blacks.

Just imagine if they banned Martians! Or redheads! The policy does *not* do those things, so what's the point of imagining what would happen if it did? Race and gender are different kinds of problems.

it's making an accomodation to promote intolerance.

No, it's making an accomodation to assuage discomfort. Like separate male and female public bathrooms. Does Andrew, or do those of you siding with him, think men should be able to just waltz into any public toilet they choose? No? But you're being exclusionary! Promoting intolerance! You should be forced to pee only at home!

Point: It's not sharia that's at work here. It's prudishness. We all have it to some degree. Our society makes accomodations to it. This is one. BFD.

vanya writes: "An even remotely observant American Catholic usually has to use a vacation day for Epiphany (a bank holiday in many Catholic countries) Easter Monday (a holiday in most Catholic countries), Good Friday (a holiday in most Catholic countries), Corpus Christi (a holiday in some Catholic countries). All of these are according to Catholic religious tradition more meaningful holidays than Christmas."

I would be willing to bet that 90% of American Catholics never even consider taking those days off, so "even remotely observant" is one hell of a stretch.

I think people need to calm down. So Harvard decided to close one gym out of MANY for two hours, three times a week to men at the request of a group of women for religious accommodation. Regardless of one's feelings about the particular religion or of religious accommodation in general, isn't it worth saying OK because these women are your friends/classmates/members of your community? People need to grow up. It's six hours a week. There are (or were) gyms in all of the Houses. There are gyms all around campus. There are 14 other hours of gym time in that day. These women aren't trying to oppress anyone, they just want to work out.

What DTM said.

Plus the quote:
"Harvard kicks all the guys out of the Quadrangle Recreational Athletic Center at the request of the Harvard Islamic Society. "

How about
"The Harvard Islamic Society reserves the Quadrangle Recreational Athletic Center for six hours per week."

Hmmm not much of a headline there.

"The Harvard Pingpong Society reserves the Quadrangle Recreational Athletic Center for six hours per week."

Not much there either.

Presumably these are the same six hours each week. If you find yourself being kicked out week after week, maybe you should figure out that the gym is reserved at that time.

The policy is defensible, but the motivation for the policy still rankles.

I think that's probably a fair point. I have a really hard time getting over the notion that commons areas can be made off-limits to a portion of the student body.

Let's say two months from now another group comes back and says that they are uncomfortable using the library while men are present, so the university should set a policy to ban men for 1 hour per day (or vice versa).

I can't imagine that this would ever fly because it would directly impede studies but from a policy/fairness standpoint, I fail to see the distinction between the two.

thank you, philippa

Ah Craigory, not only nasty, but crudely ignorant as well. I am amazed your mom wants to type your tedious little messages for you.

By the way, I am quite serious about preferring the allow-but-ridicule approach to these issues. In that sense, I have no problem agreeing that this request violated societal norms I endorse, but I don't particular want or need the Harvard administration to be enforcing those norms. And that is because I strongly suspect more informal norm-reinforcing mechanism within the Harvard community would end up being a lot more effective.

BFR, is there much point in trying such an unlikely hypothetical? Why not reverse it? What is a group of men demanded that women must be present while they studied? It's just as likely - in other words, not at all.

jaswant,
Feel free to point out exactly what I said which was ignorant. My son would love to he...er, I mean I'd love to hear it. Idiot.

Now technically, that means the owner of those courts is excluding other people whenever we play. But that is simply a side-effect of us reserving it for our exclusive use.

Except that in this case the staff also has to be all-women; any male staff members are affected, which is not comparable to any other reservation.

I get it: Separate, but equal.

Hey, that's how our society frequently handles questions of gender and public facilities. You're OK with single-sex bathrooms, aren't you? Single-sex locker rooms? Single-sex youth sports? This is the same principle.

People are just upset that it's *Muslims* who asked for this. If the request came from women with body image or secular modesty concerns, we'd never hear about this.

Precisely. I bet you don't hear many of those outraged Harvard white boys complaining that they can't go to Curves up the road at Porter Square.

Can't believe I'm defending Harvard. I hated that place.

BTM, you don't endorse respecting diversity and tolerance? Seems a slightly alarming set of norms that you have there.

You're right. It does bother me that Muslims are asking for this. If it was just a few shy, pudgy chicks, I would be fine with it. We SHOULD have a problem with any type of organization which teaches such arcane, discriminatory practices. That goes for almost all religions.

Ryan, I hear you on hating Harvard, which is a vile place in many ways. However, I think we should defend it when it, very rarely, does the right thing. Not the institution, but the principle, so to speak. That said, I can't wait to leave.

BFR, is there much point in trying such an unlikely hypothetical?

I don't know what the justification would be for denying the library application when you just approved the gym application. Or for that matter banning people who eat meat from the cafeteria so as to not offend the vegans who despise meat consumption.

I went to a really small college with one gym and one cafeteria and one library. Perhaps this is why I'm more rankled about this than maybe I should be, but it just doesn't seem like a policy that a university community should be embracing.

BFR, I take your point about the one gym/library situation at your alma mater, but there is a difference between exercising in somewhat revealing clothing, and reading in the library. That's where your hypothetical seems to me to fail, and why I can't see any serious application being made for women only reading hours.

MLJ says I would be willing to bet that 90% of American Catholics never even consider taking those days off, so "even remotely observant" is one hell of a stretch.

Sure, that's kind of the point. 90% of American Catholics are so fully Americanized that they no longer observe major religious holy days and now think Christmas is THE significant Christian holiday. If American Catholics can radically change their religion to accommodate the mainstream American lifestyle than so can everyone else.

You can usually tell that people are making arguments out of the silliest kind of bigotry when they are reduced to finding reasons why no other case counts as similar because of reasons that can best be described as stretching it.

What does Harvard do if Hindus come with a similar request? Since the request is for a time when women can exercise without being leered at by men, my guess is they point out that the request has already been satisfied. If the question is what do they do if a Hindu group asks for an accomodation, then they see what they can do to reasonably accomodate it as they have in the past according to the link someone above helpful provided.

Designing the entire college schedule around the major Christian holiday, that is different because it doesn't affect non-Christians enough or in the right way, or because we are used to it and things are ok once you get used to it.

Didn't we learn from Brown v Board Education that separate but equal is always wrong? Perhaps the more simpleminded of us did. The rest of us hopefully new that in that case separate bore no realtionship to equal and that the reasons for the policy were government endorsed sense that some people were of lesser value. The idea that giving women (even if they are gasp muslim and so hateful unlike those good judeo-christian women working out at Curves) 6 time periods a week at one gym has any relation to this suggests that we are in a zone in which people don't care if their arguments deserve to be taken seriously.

If there was a way to provide only a portion of the gym to these women during those times, that would clearly be better. But the idea that there should be no tolerance for minority practices is ludicrous. And as the poor quality of the arguments expressing outrage shows it is not an idea that is held on the basis of serious consideration.

No, it's making an accomodation to assuage discomfort. Like separate male and female public bathrooms.

Yeah. And making blacks sit in the back of the bus was just an accomodation to assuage the discomfort of those whites who didn't want to sit next to blacks.

To the back of the bus, Rosa! We need to accomodate bigots!

I'm not going to go so far to say that Harvard did the "right thing." If they told the students, "Harvard does not feel its mission would be served by accommodating your requirements. You are free to join Curves," I wouldn't say their response was out of bounds. I simply think they made a valid decision, given what we understand to be acceptable options when it comes to single-sex environments.

I think a lot of the inflammatory aspect of this issue has to do with The Boston Herald's and La Sullivan's imprecise account of the problem -

the reason isn't that the Muslim religion "forbids" men and women working out together - the original article that I read about this subject discussed how the women's religous dictates of modesty allowed them to work out with men, but required them to be covered up to preserve their modesty because of the presence of men. This accomodation is being made to allow them to use the gym wearing "normal" gym clothes and so get the full benefit of using the gym that all other Harvard students enjoy. Even the gym personnel during the 6 hours would be women. And ALL women who wish to work out in a single-sex environment would also therefore be accomodated.

I think before one gets one feathers ruffled - consider a) other groups which practice "old fashioned" examples of modesty, such as the Pennsylvania Dutch. Should their women also be likewise accomodated or should we force them to choose between "skimpy" gym clothes or going fully covered if they wish to exercise. I bet in many places in PA anD OH those concessions to modesty are somehow accomodated without causing a virulent ruckus that reeks of anti-Moslim outrage.
And b) Harvard knows (or should know) that accepting Moslim women will create these sort of problems and is obligated to do what it can as an institution to accomodate those students with "special" needs as well as all of its students. It would be one thing if the girls wore normal revealing mini-skirts, bare-midriff clothing, etc. out and about and then demanded their modesty in within the gym confines, but I somehow doubt that that is the case. When you accept Moslim women, you also accept the fact that there will be a percentage of the group that will have non-modern/non-Western/non-Britney Spears ideas of modesty. You can't accept them (whether or not to achieve a goal of diversity), and then expect that you can then dictate to them that they ahve to behave differently or accept something different in order to have the same enjoyment and usage of Harvard's facilities as everyone else.
Once you get away from the mistaken/offensive idea that it's a religious belief that is inherently intolerent, and instead realize that it's an issue of a particular lifestyle that maybe deserves to be accomodated so that all may enjoy the same access to Harvard's facilities in some fashion, it becomes a much different discussion.

but there is a difference between exercising in somewhat revealing clothing, and reading in the library. That's where your hypothetical seems to me to fail, and why I can't see any serious application being made for women only reading hours.

There's no compelling reason to excercise in somewhat revealing clothing though.

Alternatives - they could have turned the thermostat way down thus forcing people to work out in baggy sweats. Or they could have established codes of conduct. Or they could have set aside reservable private excercise rooms and left the rest of the gym alone.

Maybe these are ridiculous options, but I'm sure they could have thought of something less offensive than banning a set of students from a common area. It just seems wrong to me.

I don't know what the justification would be for denying the library application when you just approved the gym application.

I guess if it was common to wear revealing "study" clothes that modest women didn't like being seen in by men, such that there were even a national chain of female-only libraries, I'd consider it.

"The Harvard Pingpong Society reserves the Quadrangle Recreational Athletic Center for six hours per week."

That's "table tennis" you medieval, hate-mongering bastard!

Sullivan (and Yglesias) are not imprecise, they are simply parroting a very brief and inaccurate version of the story. The more accurate version is here:

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/03/04/harvard.gym.ap/index.html

There is a big difference between 6 hours a week, and 6 times a week. This is lazy reporting by Sullivan and Yglesias, and deserves censure.

Hey, that's how our society frequently handles questions of gender and public facilities. You're OK with single-sex bathrooms, aren't you? Single-sex locker rooms? Single-sex youth sports? This is the same principle.

But it actually isn't. In general, we have different conceptions of what we'd call public space and private space. Lockers and bathrooms would generally be private spaces (and subject to prudishness that you describe above). Gyms would be public spaces, like libraries. (Of course, I don't mean public as in publicly owned, but as in generally available). There are no other publicly available spaces which we ask certain groups to leave for the comfort of others, that I can think of.

As for "prudishness" as a rationale, that one is too easy to knock down -- wear modest clothing. It can be done, even in a gym while exercising. Exclusion isn't the same as modesty.

The only argument to be had is that this is a bad idea, but not so bad as to get worked up about. Which seems arguable, but ultimately not compelling. There should be a serious ick factor when we start kicking large groups out of generally acceptable places/activities for the "comfort" of others.

Njorl, are you some sort of crypto-Taleban table tennis playing surrender monkey? Hmmmm?

Brad L,your argument basically boils down to "only large groups count", and is fundamentally flawed because it fails to address issues of diversity and tolerance. You also fail to note that men have a number of other exercise options at Harvard during the 6 hours that women have the Quad gym exclusively.

Brad L, the thing is that the existence of women-only gyms tells us that gyms can be considered within the realm of "private space." One can disagree with Harvard's decision while also aknowledging that it made a valid one.

Brad L, the issue of modesty in athletic clothing is perhaps not quite so simple as you suppose. Still, perhaps you would care to outline what a Muslim woman would see as suitably modest, and what she could exercise in?

To be honest, I've never really understood the bitterness a lot of American Jews hold toward Christmas - Vanya

Forgetting about the cultural baggage from the time when Christmas wasn't really that big of a religious holiday but just an excuse for getting drunk and killing Jews "'cause they killed the dude whose birth we're celebrating by getting drunk today", Philip Roth captures the feeling we Jews have about Christmas very well in (IIRC) Portnoy's Complaint ... when you see all these lights, all these trees, etc., it really does send the message "this is a Christian country and you Jews are just merely tolerated here".

Relatedly, I remember as a kid other kids who suspected you of being Jewish wouldn't know to ask that -- instead they'd ask "are you a Hannukah or a Christmas?".

Interestingly, what I find so funny about the "put Christ back into Christmas" crowd is that part of the reason why Christmas is so secularized is because we have become a relatively secular society and we insist on having Christmas as a federal holiday. The surest way to put Christ back into Christmas is to not have it be sullied by secularism. But if we were to, as a society, take steps to do that (i.e. not have it actually be a secular holiday recognized by the Feds, etc.), the "put Christ back into Christmas" crowd would be the first to whine on and on about "the war against Christmas" ...

You also fail to note that men have a number of other exercise options at Harvard during the 6 hours that women have the Quad gym exclusively.

I think we've pretty well established that this is just a principles argument. The fact that Harvard men have other options isn't really relevant.

I just look at this and see that one group of students is offended by the presence of another group of students in a common area of campus and that the response of the university is to set aside a period where the 'offending' students are banned from the premises.

I just don't see how on earth this is justified in a liberal university environment.

Brad L,your argument basically boils down to "only large groups count", and is fundamentally flawed because it fails to address issues of diversity and tolerance.

How so? I don't think any group, large or small, should be excluded from public areas for the comfort of other groups. I'm also not sure how this "fails" tolerance. I think the act of kicking one group out for another is a far greater act of intolerance, somehow, than asking everyone to behave in roughly the same manner (which, incidentally, is however they choose).

You also fail to note that men have a number of other exercise options at Harvard during the 6 hours that women have the Quad gym exclusively.

I'm not sure why I would; it doesn't seem germane to my point, and it has been mentioned above. My point is that we don't really kick groups (large or small) out of generally accessible areas, for the sake of other groups. This should be true whether or not there are "other options."

Brad L, the issue of modesty in athletic clothing is perhaps not quite so simple as you suppose. Still, perhaps you would care to outline what a Muslim woman would see as suitably modest, and what she could exercise in?

I think this may have been my comment. I was arguing from the assumption that this was a gender-based as opposed to religious discrimination. If it's indeed based solely on the religious angle, then to me it's way way way worse - akin to banning blacks etc that I mentioned earlier. That should be totally out of bounds at a university.

I'm somewhat more on the fence if it's a gender based decison but it still seems like a lousy message for the university to be sending.

BFR, I don't remember anyone agreeing this was simply a discussion of principles. Commonsense seems more useful to me. Nor should you try and force the conversation into one narrow direction. That's just irresponsible. It is relevant that men have other exercise options, and that these are more easily accessible. Don't try and make it seem as if they are losing amenity here when they are not.

Still, perhaps you would care to outline what a Muslim woman would see as suitably modest, and what she could exercise in?

Seriously? No, I don't presume to tell people what to wear, nor am I a student of Islam.

I will note that I have seen Muslim women in my gym fairly well covered. Are you contending that the amount of clothing necessary for modesty would be so high as to render exercise impossible? That claim seems implausible to me. (Even if true, I'd have to think about whether that is a good reason to kick people out.)

Brad L, you brought up the subject of modest clothing, so surely you ought to explain what you meant. Or did you not have any coherent view as a basis for your argument?

On the arguments these people have advanced, we should remove kosher foods for dininghalls, ban prayergroups of any tradition, and effectively forbid the expression of an religious identity on campus.

You don't seem to understand the fundamental asymmetry here. As a secularist, I urge you to follow your religion as you see fit. It's fine for you to eat only kosher foods. It's fine for you to join a prayer group of any persuasion. It's fine for you to express your religious identity through clothing, or jewelry, or by whatever means you see fit. I urge you to do all those things as dictated by your conscience.

But it's when you ask me to start doing things - like, leave in the middle of my workout because your religion mandates exclusion - that's where the line is crossed. No one here has advanced the arguments you're talking about. But for some reason, you can't seem to see the difference between what religious adherents expect from themselves, and what adherents all of a sudden expect everyone else to do for them. My religion doesn't exclude me from working out with women; why should I be forced to leave a unisex gym because someone else's does? Open a segregated gym if that's a concern, and pay for it with contributions from the people who choose to use it. But excluding people from public facilities isn't reasonable.

Right now, I am playing the world's smallest violin for all those poor college boys who might have to walk a little farther because their university, heaven forbid, wants to create a respectful and comfortable atmosphere for its students.

BFR, I don't remember anyone agreeing this was simply a discussion of principles. Commonsense seems more useful to me.

Ok, fine - answer this for me:

When is it acceptable to ban people from commons areas (or in the case of society) public buildings based solely on their race, gender, ethnicity?

Does the fact that blacks in segregation-era MS had options other than attending Ole Miss make it any less wrong?

Yeah, it's hyperbole but it's the same principles at work.

BFR. It's hard to take seriously an argument that ignores some basic facts. Sorry, but men have plenty of chances to exercise at Harvard. What's more, you can't just say that public space is always open to everyone. No groups could meet on campus without risking intrusions. People define areas of public space exclusively all the time - on a temporary basis. You can't just say that public space is never exclusive. That just doesn't fit how society works. Imagine if Republicans demanded access to a Clinton rally and then began chanting slogans. Of course they would be removed, and rightly so.

Hi Matt:

I am a Muslim and I oppose this measure.

I explain my reasoning here:

http://eteraz.wordpress.com/2008/03/06/harvards-gym-closing-mistake/

A relevant and under-discussed part of this discussion is: what do Muslims really think? From the post:

"Muslims play a dangerous and stupid game when they start demanding things based on their Islam. Even the most conservative reading of classical Sharia reveals that Eunuchs were allowed to wander freely through the harem. Think about the implications. In other words, a known homosexual man who has never had sex with a woman and never will, can make a powerful case under Sharia that he cannot be excluded from the gym hours. (Someone should try this just for fun — lets see if Harvard sets up an Islamic law tribunal!). If you really want to play this absurdist Islamic Law game further, then you have to ask about Lesbians. In most readings of Islamic Law it would be forbidden — haram — impermissible — unacceptable in toto — for a Muslim woman to take her clothes off in front of a known lesbian. But, do you think my good sisters are Harvard are banning known Lesbians, though? No. This is why the founders of this country hoped that we could keep religion out of the public sphere, because religion opens up to an endless series of interpretations that ultimately just engender divisiveness."

BFR, the existence and commonality of women-only gyms in the United States implies to me that it is reasonable for a university to provide such facilities on its own campus, just as it is reasonable to provide single-sex dormitories.

This leaves a bad taste in our mouth because a gym is set aside as women only for an hour a day, 6 days a week, so men are being asked not to be there, but we should acknowledge that it is only this technicality, and the fact that this decision was made at the behest of muslim women, that makes us uncomfortable.

Imagine if Republicans demanded access to a Clinton rally and then began chanting slogans. Of course they would be removed, and rightly so.

I don't think that's a very good analogy. They (said Republicans) should be allowed in. They should also be promptly removed if they cause a disruption. This happens all the time on university campuses across the nation and no one finds it objectionable.

Taken to the Harvard case, you seem to be implying that my stance is that the men should be allowed in and should be permitted to wolf-whistle, catcall or worse which is certainly not what I'm saying.

Ali Eteraz, it is a pretty damn stupid game to play when you use extreme examples and try and generalize from them. I can't say that the eunuch population on campus is very large, but I am pretty damn sure that no-one here equates them with gay men. Harvard is not under Sharia law in any case, so I doubt the authorities will feel overwhelmed but that stunning piece of logic. You also have a ridiculous non sequitur about lesbians and nudity. Please, don't use absurd arguments to attack tolerance at Harvard - that just leads to bigotry and extremism.

OK, since we're talking about the superiority of Western values vs. the primitive taboos of some medieval war cult, how about this: Harvard University is a private corporation. They have the absolute right to do what they want with their property. Anyone who doesn't like it, head over to Somerville, and enroll at Tufts with the plumbers' kids.

Forgetting about the cultural baggage from the time when Christmas wasn't really that big of a religious holiday but just an excuse for getting drunk and killing Jews "'cause they killed the dude whose birth we're celebrating by getting drunk today"

I thought you were just ranting, but I did some google research and sure enough, there were many many Christmas pogroms in European history, especially in Eastern Europe. I'm sure most gentiles are completely unaware of that - I can see how that would tend to cast Christmas in a more sinister light.

Vanya,

Do you think it's a _good_ thing that American Christians have forgotten about Epiphany, Ascension, Good Friday and other important holidays? I don't. I am more than a bit annoyed that American Christians, who are 80% of the population, expected to work on Good Friday. Objectively speaking it's hard to argue that Good Friday is less important a holiday than celebrating the birth of whichever president happened to be born on President's Day....or worse yet, celebrating the dude who thought he discovered Asia when he'd actually discovered Hispaniola.

I don't think that segregated gyms are a good idea because I believe that Muslim ideas about the proper role of men and women are, in a word, false, and I don't want to make any concession to them.

Marques:

My point is to show that it is very hard to say what is *the* authoritative reading of any religion, which means that you are simply opening a can of worms that starts to seep religion into the public sphere.

Read the rest of my post. There is a scenario under which I find this initiative legitimate.

Brad L, you brought up the subject of modest clothing, so surely you ought to explain what you meant.

Actually, modesty was proposed as the underlying reason for the ban (by Ethel-to-Tilly, and by Ryan, who equated the gym with bathrooms and showers, where modesty is a principle concern for privacy, although he called it "prudishness").

If it is not the reason, and there is some other reason, feel free to enlighten me. If you are intending to argue that it is simply religion, then I wonder whether we need to humor this at all.

Or did you not have any coherent view as a basis for your argument?

My view is that it is perfectly possible to exercise in modest clothing. I'm not sure why that seems incoherent. The fact that I don't write a rulebook for what constitutes "proper dress" in the Muslim faith does not mean that this is a generally difficult concept.

Nice condescending attitude, btw.

BFR,no, you know very well that you are distorting the argument I made. You also haven't answered the central point, which is that you can't just assume that public space is always open to everyone. It isn't and for good reasons. Muslim women have a right to exercise in a non-threatening atmosphere, and Harvard is upholding that. It doesn't remove the right to exercise from men, and has made more space available to them. Attempting to deny the same right to Muslim women seems like an attempt to somehow define public space as belonging to one group, not another. Why should you effectively privilege non-muslim men?

Shorter Brad L:

No, I don't have to make sense. I can, however, attempt to discriminate against people who have religious commitments. Oh, and while I can't say what modest clothing might be, I am pretty sure you can exercise in it. End with bitchy remark and look pleased with self.

Muslim women have a right to exercise in a non-threatening atmosphere, and Harvard is upholding that.

...is a TERRIBLE argument. Fear and bias from one group leads to policy - is that really a road Harvard or any other university would want to follow?

You also haven't answered the central point, which is that you can't just assume that public space is always open to everyone.

I think there's a distinction between reserving a public location for a private event and what we're talking about here, which is straight discrimination in a common facilirt against one group due to gender.

That being said, I'm way closer to ok with it if it's strictly a decision based on gender rather than on the basis of a religious preference. I still don't think it's the right approach but it's not altogether inconsistent with the notion of single-sex dorms and the like.

Niko:

Only a fool would disagree with your assertion "you can't assume that public space is always open to everyone."

The issue is what is the stated reason behind curtailing the liberty of others. Is it religion? In that case, its not a good idea (see last 2000 years of human history). Is it gender? Then its probably acceptable.

The issue that people are having here -- and one that I as a person deeply opposed to the advancing Christianism of this country -- is that the initiative is rooted in religious terms.

Ultimately its a tempest in a tea-pot because Harvard is a private university in a liberal part of the country where there is no chance of violence as a result of this, but as a matter of principle, it does fly against the generally accepted understanding among liberal secularists (which I am).

But it's when you ask me to start doing things - like, leave in the middle of my workout because your religion mandates exclusion - that's where the line is crossed.

Maybe that's where you would like the line to be drawn, but as a matter of law it's not where the line actually is drawn. Federal civil rights law requires employers to make a reasonable accommodation of their employees' religious beliefs unless doing so would impose an undue burden on others. Not just any burden, but an undue burden. Of course, there is plenty of room for disagreement over what constitutes an "undue" burden, but the point is that some degree of burden to others is acceptable. Presumably, the same standard applies with respect to religious accommodations by educational institutions. Only if Harvard's policy were deemed to impose an undue burden on the male students would it likely be actionable under civil rights law.

Ali Eteraz, I am not religious, but your argument is curtailing the liberty of those who are. Muslim women have the right to exercise in a safe space for them, just as all women do, or gay men for that matter. You can't solve this by trying to remove their Muslim identity, and certainly not by drawing the most extreme scenario from it.

BFR - so I should assume from your posts that you don't believe Muslim women have the right to exercise in a non-threatening space?

Sycophantic slags!
Perhaps it's because of my law school brain washing but of course the first question that popped into my mind upon reading this story was: public or private?
This seems irrelevant, but if you really think about it - Harvard can do whatever it wants to do, in fact it could begin blast daily calls to prayer from the top of whatever that main buiding is in the "yard"(I think I took night classes there one semester) and I could care less. With all due respect for current or former Harvard students, why does every one feel as if an injustice (assuming it is one) committed at Harvard is an injustice to us all.
Not to say that everything that is legal is automatically just or good policy, but the law does provide some indication of where our collective standards lie. On that note - there is no basis for comparison between segregation of blacks and whites and the hour long women's only use of the gym. If it was for an aerobics or self - defense class I don't think anyone would say boo about it.
Question remains: should (or would) this be legal if it were at UMass? I think yes.

niko, the safety of Muslim women is never an issue. It is a matter of their religious and personal comfort, and Harvard is making an effort, out of their own self-interest, to accommodate them.

I would have liked to have had the day off for Good Friday, but no one should go about saying that doing so would be about "maintaining a safe and non-threatening atmosphere."

Presumably, the same standard applies with respect to religious accommodations by educational institutions. Only if Harvard's policy were deemed to impose an undue burden on the male students would it likely be actionable under civil rights law.

I don't disagree with this - it's clearly not actionable and clearly legally acceptable. I can't speak to others on this thread but I think it's just a terrible precedent for Harvard to be setting.

It re-enforces the notion that discrimination is an acceptable tool for universities to resolve on-campus disputes. I usually think slippery slope arguments are horseshit but not so much this one - it's too easy to see how this could turn into a series of similar requests by other ethnic/religious campus groups and then you end up with balkanized campus environments.

This is assuming that the decision was made on religious grounds rather than gender grounds of course.

Tyro, would you like to offer a logical argument, rather than two non-sequiturs in close proximity? Exercising in a comfortable space, by their religious standards, is a perfectly reasonable request to make, just as it is perfectly reasonable for women's solidarity groups to meet on campus without men present. Trying to deny this is simply forcing a narrowly secular interpretation of public space onto others.

Shorter Brad L:

No, I don't have to make sense. I can, however, attempt to discriminate against people who have religious commitments. Oh, and while I can't say what modest clothing might be, I am pretty sure you can exercise in it. End with bitchy remark and look pleased with self.

Wow. Ok, first, I'd like you to explain to me how not kicking people out is discrimination.

Second, of course I have an idea what modest clothing might be. That wasn't what I was asked. I was asked to specifically describe, for Muslim women, what modest clothing might be. That's a pretty big difference, and a leap I am not comfortable making, although I did ask for a clarification of whether modest clothing precluded exercise. Is that really your, or anyone's, contention? (And if so, might you be willing to opine about what Muslim women should consider modest?).

Finally, are you really getting on me for snarking back just a bit after making an honest effort to answer a deeply snarky question? Yeesh.

"Muslim women have a right to exercise in a non-threatening atmosphere, and Harvard is upholding that." Sounds innocuous enough.

But let's try this--"Muslim women have a right to study / live / eat / go to class in a non-threatening atmosphere, and Harvard is upholding that." See, the catch is when religious groups use their faith as the means to define "threatening" as contact with, or the mere presence of, certain others, and then recommend the removal--exclusion--of the offending others. That's illiberalism using political correctness to masquerade as "tolerance".

Niko:

I am not advocating removing their Muslim identity. I am advocating realizing that you can't achieve certain things on the basis of your religious identity -- especially when the same can be accomplished using other identities i.e. gender.

BFR, I don't think that this was made on religious grounds per se, only that there is a single religious group left that's willing to attend Harvard that is still so hung up about these issue that they're willing to ask the university to make an accomodation about this.

The number of Christians who are hung up about this is very small and most likely attends uber-Christian universities. A similar case probably exists for many Orthodox Jewish students. I assume there is probably an active community of Harvard women that just buys a membership at "Curves." However, there were likely enough of a critical mass of Muslim women at Harvard that managed to ask Harvard to change their policy on this because they were able to make a collective petition on the matter.

BFR - so I should assume from your posts that you don't believe Muslim women have the right to exercise in a non-threatening space?

Yes, but I would go even farther - we all have the right to excercise in an environment where someone is not holding a gun to our heads or otherwise threatening to dismember us.

This is different - this is defining someone's mere presence as threatening. It's just not a great idea for a university to be setting policy on that basis.

Claudius, you will find that Harvard upholds that standard for all students - as for that matter do most universities. Exercise in somewhat revealing clothing is a rather different matter from walking to class in conservative religious gear, as these women do on a daily basis. There ia a difference between giving these women equal amanity, while respecting their faith, and simply secularization of all spaces on campus in an intolerant and totalitarian manner.

Tyro:

It was six Muslim women. [Not that it makes it any less relevant given how small the number is]. It just doesn't seem like "a collective petition."

Ali Eteraz, their petition was supported by the Women's Center, which makes it reasonably collective.

niko, you should make it clear that this is not a problem of an environment that is inherently "threatening" to women. It is a matter that Muslims have a religious issue about something and that Harvard has decided that it is in their interest to accommodate the religious needs and preferences of a distinct religious community in their midst. No one claims that kosher kitchens are necessary to provide a "non-threatening cooking experience." They are provided because certain Jews live by certain strict rules, and universities want to allow students to live by their own religious rules on campus.

When it comes to Christmas, think of it this way. 80-90% of the workforce would otherwise want the time off and be submitting vacation requests. Even if you don't want to establish a religion, there is a point at which religious accomodation can easily be seen as labor accomodation.

Claudius: gyms are not like other public spaces. Whether you want to admit it or not, there is something inherently sexual about people in revealing clothes, moving in ways that emphasize their arms, legs and chests, and being in a position to be watched by large number of other people. Some people dig on this. Others are intimidated by it. But the experience of gender-mixing in a library or cafeteria is not really comparable to this -- at least, in this case, it's clear that the Muslim women who are pushing the single-sex hour at the Harvard gym don't think it's comparable. If they did, they'd go to a single-sex university in the first place.

The gym I go to is even worse: neither men or women are allowed in EIGHT HOURS A DAY! Because apparently some employees aren't comfortable working all night!

When the fuck am I supposed to work out now?

BFR, I don't think that this was made on religious grounds per se, only that there is a single religious group left that's willing to attend Harvard that is still so hung up about these issue that they're willing to ask the university to make an accomodation about this.

The number of Christians who are hung up about this is very small and most likely attends uber-Christian universities. A similar case probably exists for many Orthodox Jewish students. I assume there is probably an active community of Harvard women that just buys a membership at "Curves." However, there were likely enough of a critical mass of Muslim women at Harvard that managed to ask Harvard to change their policy on this because they were able to make a collective petition on the matter.

Tyro:

But Kosher kitchens don't turn anyone away, whether on basis of religion or gender. At NYU I used to eat at the Kosher Deli more than most of the Jews.

Tyro, my understanding is that these women do find being in athletic clothing around men rather threatening, in a sexual sense. Of course, if you would like to offer another explanation....

Tyro:

But Kosher kitchens don't turn anyone away, whether on basis of religion or gender. At NYU I used to eat at the Kosher Deli more than most of the Jews.

NBX:

But it seems to have been supported by the center on the grounds of supporting the Muslim women, and not on the grounds of supporting JUST women who do not like to work out in front of men.

Tyro, my understanding is that these women do find being in athletic clothing around men rather threatening, in a sexual sense. Of course, if you would like to offer another explanation....

niko, it was my understanding that it is *against their religion* to reveal their hair or bare arms and legs in the presence of men. The environment is not "objectively" threatening, since plenty of other people obviously don't find the environment threatening.

Niko:

They consider it a sin to be seen by member of the opposite sex beyond their face and hands, and they consider it a sin to be seen by members of the same sex beyond hair, face, feet, and hands.

I think you are conceding the point to the patriarchal mullahs in the Islamic community who seem to suggest that an uncovered woman brings sexual violence against herself. I think a feminist would take you to town for that patriarchal view.

BFR, I don't think that this was made on religious grounds per se, only that there is a single religious group left that's willing to attend Harvard that is still so hung up about these issue that they're willing to ask the university to make an accomodation about this.

“No, no,” he told me, “we’re permitting women to work out in an environment that accommodates their religion.”

This sounds like religion first with gender as a backstop. Either way, I think it's a lousy decision but if they're really basing it on religion, then I don't see how they avoid future cafeteria segregations, etc. If you're willing to boot one group of students out of the gymn for religious reasons, why can't you boot them out of the cafeteria because their intake of hooved mammals, or meat or whatever is deemed offensive to another group?

For example, in this context is it ok to ban non-vegans from the cafes for an hour a day because the vegans can't accept the potential taint of animal derived food in their meals?

I can't believe I am reading this.

Egypt Steve:

"Claudius: gyms are not like other public spaces. Whether you want to admit it or not, there is something inherently sexual about people in revealing clothes, moving in ways that emphasize their arms, legs and chests, and being in a position to be watched by large number of other people."

No, there is nothing inherently sexual about it. If you find it sexual, its your own (un)doing. I expect to hear this point of view in a madrassa in Pakistan, not in uber-left Yglesias' comments section.

On Kosher kitchens: actually, I searched the Harvard web site, and they don't seem to have them. But other campuses do. Sure, as a non-Jew, I could use them. But: what if I want to have a ham sandwich there? Aren't I being discriminated against if I can't have the meal of my choice at the dining hall of my choice because of someone else's religious taboos?

BFR, as I said before, the fact that all-women gyms are quite common across the country indicates to me that it is well-within accepted American cultural norms for universities to provide all-female gym space, in the same way they provide single-sex dormitories.

I don't disagree with this - it's clearly not actionable and clearly legally acceptable.

I don't think this is clear at all. Whether the policy is actionable would probably depend on the nature and magnitude of the burden it imposes on male students. Relevant questions might be: Is there a reasonable alternative facility they may use in place of the Quadrangle Recreational Athletic Center while it is being used by the Islamic women? How long are they excluded from the QRAC?

I can't speak to others on this thread but I think it's just a terrible precedent for Harvard to be setting. It re-enforces the notion that discrimination is an acceptable tool for universities to resolve on-campus disputes.

Only if it qualifies as "discrimination" (in the sense of invidious social discrimination). Since that seems to be one of the questions in dispute, you are simply assuming your conclusion. If your position is that any burden, no matter how small, that a religious accommodation policy imposes on someone constitutes "discrimination" against that person, then obviously you would consider it discrimination. But I don't agree with that definition of discrimination, and I doubt most other people would either.

I await Matt's thoughts on how good an idea this is when a religious sect asks that openly gay men be excluded at certain hours, due to that religion's men being "uncomfortable" with them.

Egypt Steve: I agree that many women find gyms to be disconcerting places, and if the women of Harvard wanted to set aside certain times when they could use some of the athletic facilities based on that, then I might have understood. But that's not what happened here. This group of women pressed for a policy of exclusion, based on their religious beliefs. As someone noted above, there are kosher kitchens in some schools, but I doubt that those schools allow those kitchens to deny service to non-Jews.

It's the religious-based exclusion that bugs me. Yes, the slippery slope argument can get trite, but allowing policies of exclusion based on faith is disconcerting to say the least. Religions are very good at producing long lists of what is "offensive" to them.

James, I don't see you raising similar objections to other women-only gyms and single-sex dormitories, so I assume you're just being a troll.

Only if it qualifies as "discrimination" (in the sense of invidious social discrimination). Since that seems to be one of the questions in dispute, you are simply assuming your conclusion. If your position is that any burden, no matter how small, that a religious accommodation policy imposes on someone constitutes "discrimination" against that person, then obviously you would consider it discrimination. But I don't agree with that definition of discrimination, and I doubt most other people would either.

Here's a dictionary.com definition of discrimination:

"Treatment or consideration based on class or category rather than individual merit; partiality or prejudice: racial discrimination; discrimination against foreigners."

How is this not discrimination? Men are banned because they are men. The duration and the amount of inconvenience are useful asides but it doesn't change the fact that this is a discriminatory policy and that it's derived from religion makes it more odious.

Ali Eteraz, it is nonsense to suggest that only Muslim women find gyms to be sexual charged spaces, and then because of mullahs. Many non-muslim women join women-only gyms, presumably because they find them safer in several ways.
Furthermore, please stop this stereotypical appeal to patriarchal mullahs. This is only one extreme on the complex spectrum which is Islam. Appealing to it is really just as bad as Republican attempts to suggest that all Muslims are like the Taleban. It benefits only the extremists to do so.
Egypt Steve - if you are silly enough to walk into a designated kosher kitchen and ask for a ham sandwich, you probably deserve a terse response. Why not walk into a synagogue and demand a Catholic Mass at the same time? I doubt you'd get your way. Furthermore, we can't try and make all thing acceptable to all people at all locations. Religions and philosophies differ, and we have to respect that difference and allow it its space, so long as it is not actively harming your amenity.
In the case of the ham sandwich, the university has provided places for you to get that sandwich, and if you try and force your way into a different designated area, you have NO right to blame people for pointing out your folly.

BFR, as I said before, the fact that all-women gyms are quite common across the country indicates to me that it is well-within accepted American cultural norms for universities to provide all-female gym space, in the same way they provide single-sex dormitories.

There are also lots and lots of whites only and men only country clubs in the US too, so it's frankly a pretty well-accepted norm too. I really don't think that's a tradition that educational institutions ought to be following.

marques: It may seem stupid that Ali Eteraz set up the scenarios he did. However, from my readings, it was the rise of just this sort of hairsplitting among the Islamic jurisprudents after the caliphate got settled in that has since shackled life in much of the Islamic world.

There was once a time when people of any faith could put some space between themselves and the zealots with only a donkey or a strong trade wind. Today, religious conservatives of any faith enjoy instant, world-wide reach, and there is no escape. So, people are forced to confront, to engage the holier than thou.

This one piddly, little gym, for 6 lousy hours a week, is as good a place to confront as any.

BFR,

By that definition, favoring black actors for the role of Martin Luther King in a movie biography would be discrimination. Does that make sense to you? Again, I assume you're talking here about discrimination in the sense of invidious social discrimination, not just in the sense of any kind of preferential selection of categories ("He had a discriminating palate").

BFR, don't make me laugh. Are you ACTUALLY comparing Curves Gym to whites-only country clubs? No one would take such a comparison seriously, and you're wasting our time if that's what you're trying to claim.

Wow, only academics could find a way to justify this move as pro-liberty. Unbelievable. These same academics would have a cow if such a move were made for Christians - herein is the proof of the odious hypocrisy of so many academics.

Some posters claim that many here are upset over this issue because it involves Muslims. Guess what? They’re right! Why? Because it only proves that leftist academia has no problem accommodating illiberal ideas and religions, so long as they are not Christian or Western.

I'm an agnostic who sees this clear as day...

Wow, only academics could find a way to justify this move as pro-liberty. Unbelievable. These same academics would have a cow if such a move were made for Christians - herein is the proof of the odious hypocrisy of so many academics.

Some posters claim that many here are upset over this issue because it involves Muslims. Guess what? They’re right! Why? Because it only proves that leftist academia has no problem accommodating illiberal ideas and religions, so long as they are not Christian or Western.

I'm an agnostic who sees this clear as day...

Al, sarcastically:

And making blacks sit in the back of the bus was just an accomodation to assuage the discomfort of those whites who didn't want to sit next to blacks.

No, that was racism on the part of the majority. The Harvard policy is a move to assuage discomfort on the part of the minority, you fool. They are asking to be segregated because of their own stricter standards of modesty. Voluntary vs. involuntary exclusion is an important moral distinction which you'd think a conservative would appreciate. In short, this is a 180-degree difference from Rosa Parks. No one is being forcibly excluded from anything.

Oh right, except the poor, poor men who have to go to some other gym for that two-hour period. On that subject, the "kicking out" formulation frequently seen here is, I think, misleading. No doubt men entering the QRAC before the hours in question are warned by staff, posted signs, or whatever that at a certain time they will have to end their workout. They know the schedule going in, or they should, just like they know (or should) at what time the library will close when they walk in for an evening of studying. No one is abruptly dragging them off the nautilus without warning in the middle of their second set of reps.

In other words, they know that at a certain hour the facilty will cease to be a public space and become a private space. Just like they know that at certain times every week, the dorm TV/common room becomes a closed meeting space for student clubs and the free-for-all basketball court gets taken over by intramural teams. Lots of spaces on any campus transform themselves in this way -- it's legitimate and students should be used to it.

In response to Brad L, Tyro notes:

the existence of women-only gyms tells us that gyms can be considered within the realm of "private space."

Quite so. It's really not much of a stretch. Bathrooms, locker rooms, gyms -- all places where, to get any benefit from the place, you need to expose more of your body than at other times, and/or do things with you body (sweat, stretch, contort, jiggle, etc.) that, if done publicly, would violate some people's standards of modesty/prudishness. And by "some people" I don't just mean conservative Muslims.

As far as I can see this is nothing more than Harvard creating a temporary women's gym for six hours a week. It just happens to have been initiated by a request from some Muslim women, seeking some accomodation for standards of prudishness/modesty which are not all that foreign to many non-Muslim women.

Harvard would have been within its rights to say no. I don't think there's any fundamental right to separate exercise facilities. This is simply an act of generosity, in the spirit of tolerance for diversity of values, and Harvard should be applauded for it.

In the case of the ham sandwich, the university has provided places for you to get that sandwich, and if you try and force your way into a different designated area, you have NO right to blame people for pointing out your folly.

I don't know about that analogy. You're not going to be banned from the deli if you try to order a ham sandwich. You'll just be told to order something else. This would be similar to walking into a gym that only has weights and trying to find the stationary bicycle. It's not really the same thing as being kicked out.

cmholm, your argument is exactly why we should refuse to play the extremist or nothing game. We know that the extremists always win on those terms. We need to create a moderate force within these debates, and we should start by being clear that 6 hours a week is ridiculously limited as a time frame for these women to use one gym of the half-a-dozen on the Harvard campus.

Frankly, I am appalled at the bigoted immaturity of Sullivan and his cheerleaders who make this an issue of religious hysteria when it simply isn't. Let's admit that numerous groups reserve of request space for private meetings, and that this is really the same thing. Frankly, if it wasn't targetted by Sullivan as "Sharia" or "Muslim" it wouldn't be any bother to anyone.

The secular intolerance of those who denounce special provision for these women is no better than tha flipside of Taleban bigotry. We need to find a better, less shrill way of accomodating all good citizens in a way that respects their religious views, as well as the common good. We cannot do that by preaching a crypto-bigotry veiled behind the spurious fiction of a neutral, always open to all public space. That's not how reality works, and we shouldn't impose a secular tyranny on people of differing opinions and faiths.

I am not religious myself, but I am damned if I am going to witchhunt these women for making an entirely reasonable request. There was a time when attacking them would have been seen as the self-righteous, cowardly act of a bully, and ridiculed as such. Covering it over in cheap rhetoric about mullahs and Muslims is simply scapegoating women who do not endorse extremist views. They just want to exercise, in heaven's name!

Even though I expect the agents of secular intolerance to whine about this and tell a few more lies about their soft bigotry, I still say the witchhunters are bullies, that their attacks are cheap and nasty, and that we shold be defending the right of these women to participate in the life of the community in a way consistent with their faith.

Ryan said: Harvard would have been within its rights to say no. I don't think there's any fundamental right to separate exercise facilities. This is simply an act of generosity, in the spirit of tolerance for diversity of values, and Harvard should be applauded for it.

Harvard should be applauded for it? What if a gorup of straight males felt threatened by gays in the gym? Should they have "straight only" hours? Or do your special access priviliges only apply to "minorities"?

BFR, in many univerisities, entire kitchens are reserved for kosher use. You could make the argument that this is unfair because it prevents anyone from cooking a ham in the over or making a chicken parmesan sandwich and that this is discriminatory, despite the existence of lots of other kitchens on campus, but people would laugh at you.

Accommodating the religious needs of students at a university is a zero-sum situation. Always. Money spent to accommodate the religious practices of one group of students is money that can't be used elsewhere. However, no one complains about this because it's considered an acceptable use of university resources to accommodate various religious groups, within reason.

[In general, we have different conceptions of what we'd call public space and private space. Lockers and bathrooms would generally be private spaces (and subject to prudishness that you describe above). Gyms would be public spaces, like libraries. (Of course, I don't mean public as in publicly owned, but as in generally available). There are no other publicly available spaces which we ask certain groups to leave for the comfort of others, that I can think of.]

well, that's transparently because you've just gerrymandered a definition of "publicly available spaces", haven't you?

how about the general principle "No need to be an ass about it?". If a bunch of women ask if please, because of genuine and sincere reasons, they'd like to reserve some time in the gym, then how do the various solutions fare when judged by the "would this constitute being a real ass about it" criterion? Most of these "issues of principle" can benefit from a quick reality check of this kind.

marques said: we shold be defending the right of these women to participate in the life of the community in a way consistent with their faith.

How exactly are they "participating in the community"? Next, they'll want separate pool hours, library hours, dorm lounge hours. Where exactly do you the draw the line on sanctioned segregation?

Mike, we've spent way to much time addressing the stupid arguments of people made much earlier than this thread to spend any more time addressing your own stupid arguments. If you want attention, seek it early in the thread, not late.

This is simply an act of generosity, in the spirit of tolerance for diversity of values...

You know, it all seems so reasonable until you get to the part where excluding someone because of their gender (or race, or religion) becomes an act of tolerance.

It's a tempest in a teapot, sure. But it is noteworthy as a symbolic gesture that says "yes, it is ok for us to exclude people on the basis of gender for no better reason than the comfort of others."

That just seems counter to the "spirit of tolerance" that it is being professed to represent. It has an ick factor to it - historically, exclusion based on gender (or race or religion) has not exactly been based in tolerance. Claiming the mantle here seems a mixed message at best, deeply misguided at worst.

BFR, don't make me laugh. Are you ACTUALLY comparing Curves Gym to whites-only country clubs? No one would take such a comparison seriously, and you're wasting our time if that's what you're trying to claim.

In fact Curves is just as discriminatory towards men as Augusta National is to blacks and women. There may be good reasons for Curves' policies and it seems to make for a reasonalby good business model but it's still discrimination.

Again, my point is not that there's anything wrong in a legal sense with Harvard's decision. It's just that it's a type of discrimination that they don't need as I think it sets a terrible precedent - that it's ok to discriminate against one group of students because another group is uncomfortable with their presence.

"...at certain times every week, the dorm TV/common room becomes a closed meeting space for student clubs and the free-for-all basketball court gets taken over by intramural teams."

Do those student clubs and intramural teams taking over school facilities use religious beliefs to exclude the presence of other students and staff? I highly doubt it.

"As far as I can see this is nothing more than Harvard creating a temporary women's gym for six hours a week. It just happens to have been initiated by a request from some Muslim women..."

Exactly. Some Muslim women who grounded their request for the exclusion of others in their religious beliefs. This wasn't about Harvard's female students seeking separation of genders based on more universal desires for modesty. This was about separation of genders based on Islamic beliefs.

Just 30 years ago, my *Jewish* club (Sociedad Hebraica Argentina, Sarmiento 2233, Buenos Aires, Argentina) had a similar policy. Men were not allowed to be present at the gym or the gallery during women's gym class.
I was a (non-observant) teenager back then, and boy did I understand the rationale behind this rule.
College in the USA nowadays is sometimes a nasty place for people who want to be modest.

Mike M, why not go to the logical conclusion of your argument and demand unisex bathrooms, unisex bedrooms and the removal of all religion or gender related groups, publications and classes from campus? Is it because you would then have to confront the spurious nature of your arguments? of course these women are part of their community, they are just asking for a safe space WITHIN it. Note WITHIN it. They aren't leaving Harvard, just redefining a little space within it - as do sports teams, debate societies, seminars - in a word, human groups and activities. That's what life is like in universities, and how it always will be.

BFR, I'm sorry, you have entered the realm of hilarity here. I don't know about Harvard, but plenty of univerisities have single-sex dormitories. Some universities even restrict access to those dormitories from male guests. This is considered a reasonable accommodation. Gym environments are considered by many to be in the same category as dormitories and locker rooms-- places where it is reasonable to at least have the option of single-sex privacy. It may be your PERSONAL opinion that single-sex dormitories and gyms are discrimnatory in the same way that Augusta is, but that is considered a fringe belief of your own.

I can't tell if you are actually that naive and ignorant of issues related to gym and work-out space, or if you are just being a troll.

Accommodating the religious needs of students at a university is a zero-sum situation. Always. Money spent to accommodate the religious practices of one group of students is money that can't be used elsewhere. However, no one complains about this because it's considered an acceptable use of university resources to accommodate various religious groups, within reason.

I see your point with respect to it being a zero-sum situation but I still have to say that I don't really see an analog here. I can stay in the Kosher cafe as long as I want, I just have to satisfy myself with Kosher cuisine.

I don't think that's the same thing as saying that I'm banned from the premises based on which set of 'equipment' I posess. I don't know that there are similar experiences out there, with the exception of lavatories and dorms which definitely gets firmly in the area of private spaces.

Brad L, how is it exclusionary for men to be able to use a number of other gyms for the 6 hours that these women use one remote gym? Sorry, but you can't seriously argue that the men lose any amenity here, and trying to do so is just petty and spiteful.

Men can use any of the several other gyms on campus, or go at a different time. It's not far from your logic: Jews "get" Christmas off even though they'd prefer Passover; men "get" to use the MAC even though they'd prefer to use the QRAC.

I get it: Separate, but equal.


Posted by southpaw

Q: How about bathrooms, southpaw? Or is your thought that there is some principle here less than Kantian?

I take MY's point about this. Even if Harvard is making some imposition, it isn't great. Any system we generate according to whatever principle will necessitate some imposition upon someone.

This isn't segregated schools. Unlike southpaw, at least I so gather, I'm old enough to have attended them in Virginia. In other parts of the state this sort of segregation was due to massive resistance; in Fairfax County the cause was old fashioned redlining. I repeat what Harvard is doing here is not the same as segregated schools.

I also teach, anthropology for what its worth, at an institution which not only has a Christmas break but a spring break which conveniently enough falls over Holy Week and includes Easter, so it shifts through the months. I'm catholic (lower c very intentional) so its fine by me, but it is more than a little obvious.

My Muslim students have to ask to be excused so they can eat after sunset during Ramadan--no biggie until some Prof says no, in violation of course of a whole set of policies designed so that the observant or the learning disabled or others who have reasonable concerns are to be accommodated. I have colleagues who might well say no.

There are also a lot of students who think I'm the spawn of the devil, and apparently to read the above posts stupid because I find in catholicism an ethical basis for approaching my neighbor and my enemy. This is the nature of a cosmopolitan society.


well, that's transparently because you've just gerrymandered a definition of "publicly available spaces", haven't you?

I didn't think so, but let me give you a simple heuristic for this: is it socially acceptable to be naked or exposed? The locker room, the bathroom, and your dorm room fit this guide pretty easily. The gym, the library, and the cafeteria don't.

If a bunch of women ask if please, because of genuine and sincere reasons, they'd like to reserve some time in the gym, then how do the various solutions fare when judged by the "would this constitute being a real ass about it" criterion?

They say that they are uncomfortable with some group, so that group should be forced to leave, and the people that are unsure whether this is a good message are being (pick one: an ass, intolerant, not liberal enough, too secular, Sullivan apologists).

I don't know about Harvard, but plenty of univerisities have single-sex dormitories. Some universities even restrict access to those dormitories from male guests. This is considered a reasonable accommodation. Gym environments are considered by many to be in the same category as dormitories and locker rooms-- places where it is reasonable to at least have the option of single-sex privacy. It may be your PERSONAL opinion that single-sex dormitories and gyms are discrimnatory

Uhh, yeah - except that I don't have any problem with single-sex dorms and restrooms etc. I think they're probably preferable but that's just my opinion.

Single sex gymns seem borderline to me. Single sex gymn policies based on religious grounds that lead to the exclusion of a class of students at a major non-religious university seem really problematic to me.

Yglesias misses the point. The problem is not that exceptions are granted for Muslim students. The problem is that others are being inconvenienced in being forced to participate, through exclusion, in Islam's silly customs.

Here's a more apt analogy:

Suppose, say, Pentecostals suddenly decided they couldn't be around Jews during lent, because the Jews, of course, killed Jesus. Now suppose Harvard's solution was to tell Jews that they couldn't attend any Harvard basketball games during lent, because there was a Pentacostal on the team.

Would that be appropriate? Of course not. Neither is this.

Any religious belief that prevents others, who don't share it, from doing activity X, presuming X is legal, should not be tolerated.

But, then again, Harvard's a private organization and can tolerate all the silly religious intolerance they want, though they shouldn't.

Also, as a sort of national strategy (not a state strategy) we should kind of want Islam to stop treating their women as cripples and children. American private institutions should make every effort to encourage them to experience adulthood and full individual rights.

We need some courageous students to test Harvard's "tolerance" for "diversity". I really hope we get some Christian students asking for their own hours. Oh yeah, don't forget Jewish hours and Hindi hours! Give some to the Buddhists too!

Since the overall attitude of those of you defending Harvard's policy seems to be a collective "ho hum, big deal, it's only six hours, ther are other gyms, and besides women and men already have their own dorms", let's test your limits! Where do YOU draw the line?

Fact is, if Christian males were demanding this special treatment, you hypocrtical @ssholes would be labeling them as intolerant bigots.

Brad L, how is it exclusionary for men to be able to use a number of other gyms for the 6 hours that these women use one remote gym?

Because... they are being excluded? That seems definitional to me.

Sorry, but you can't seriously argue that the men lose any amenity here, and trying to do so is just petty and spiteful.

I argued that it is a bad idea to start removing groups from public/common places at the behest of other groups. And I think it's a bad idea whether the gym is remote or central, and whether it is one or many. It rankles because I think it moves against the idea of tolerance, while using the same as cover. I'm sorry if that seems spiteful to you.

Federal civil rights law requires employers to make a reasonable accommodation of their employees' religious beliefs unless doing so would impose an undue burden on others.

Asking a gym full of men to stop what they're doing and go across campus constitutes an undue burden. Unless you're proposing a constitutional right to use the Stairmaster?

Shinyk, the flaw in your reasoning is that it is considered perfectly acceptable to have single-sex gyms. No one, outside of BFR, claims that there is some form of terrible discrimination going on with the existence of "Curves."

What if Harvard declined the request from the Muslim students, but just offered to give a voucher for a "Curves" membership to any woman who requested one. Would there be such a tempest over this?

What if Harvard declined the request from the Muslim students, but just offered to give a voucher for a "Curves" membership to any woman who requested one. Would there be such a tempest over this?

Vouchers wouldn't really bug me very much to be honest. Universities offer a ton of services that can only be consumed by a portion of the student-body, Curves vouchers would seem to fit in that category.

Again, my point is that they shouldn't be pushing one set of students around in order to make another feel more comfortable.

Harvard should be applauded for it? What if a gorup of straight males felt threatened by gays in the gym? Should they have "straight only" hours?

I admit this is tricky. But to me there's a basic difference: Asking for special accomodations because of modesty is OK, asking for special accomodations because of bigotry is not OK.

The Muslim women in question don't object to the existence of men. They don't hate men. They live with them, marry them, go to class with them, whatever. They just don't want to work out in front of them because they would feel embarassed/immodest doing so.

Straight men who want to exclude gays from a gym? Chances are they do object to the existence of gay men. Chances are, if they could get away with it, they'd prefer not to ever associate with gay men. Chances are, to some degree, they're repulsed by their very existence. That's bigotry. So screw 'em.

(Besides, as a practical matter, I can't imagine any facility agreeing to exclude gays because it would have no reliable way of knowing who they are. At most it could ban leering, unwanted flirting, and that sort of thing -- which no doubt most gyms do already.)

it all seems so reasonable until you get to the part where excluding someone because of their gender (or race, or religion) becomes an act of tolerance.

If you can get past the impact of the policy on little old you, center of the universe, then it's easier to see it as an act of tolerance. It's taking a space that was previously wide-open to you, without restriction, and carving out a tiny little corner of it for someone with 'special needs', of a cultural rather than physical sort. I realize that sounds condescending but I think it's a rough analogy. People can't, as a matter of will, just set aside the feelings of modesty/prudishness they've been brought up with. If you recognize that fact, and are willing to make accomodations for it, you're being a generous person.

Now you may not want to. But the facilities belong to Harvard, and all of you use them as matters of privilege, not right. So if they want to be accomodating for special request, that's their call.

I like to cook regular, non-kosher meat. I can't help myself. I love the stuff. In a dorm I lived in, there was a kosher kitchen, and I would not have been allowed to cook my non-kosher meat there. Now, of course, one could claim that although there were plenty of other kitchens in this dorm, that it was discriminatory to stop me from cooking my meat-based dishes in this kitchen and that the resources expended to keep one kitchen kosher did, in some way, restrict kitchen access for those who didn't want to cook kosher food and that my money was going to support the religious interests of others to engage in their discriminatory behavior against ham&cheese lovers like myself. However, such a claim would sound extremely foolish.

Didn't read all through the thread but how is this really any different than adults-only swim at your local community pool? For a limited amount of time, a certain group is excluded from using the facility. Should we cry "adultofascism" the next time the kiddies are whistled out of the pool?

This is not about male / female bathrooms and single-sex dorms, because there are non-religious reasons for having such things. This has nothing to do with the lack of ham sandwiches in university kosher kitchens, because while the kosher kitchens are not obligated to serve ham sandwiches, they also can't prevent certain types of people from dining there in the first place. This has nothing to do with women seeking out female-only gyms so they can exercise in a non-"meat market" environment, because that's not what happened here.

This is about a group of students of a certain religious persuasion seeking to exclude (however temporarily) another group of students and staff from school facilities because the students' religious beliefs dictate as much. To some that may seem a trifling matter. To me, it's a deeply troubling precedent for Harvard to be setting, one that seriously doubt the school would make for believers of more Western-based faiths. That it's being done in the name of "tolerance" is Orwellian.

They are asking to be segregated because of their own stricter standards of modesty.

Nobody was stopping them from segregating themselves, or even asking the men in that gym to vacate the premises voluntarily.

No one, outside of BFR, claims that there is some form of terrible discrimination going on with the existence of "Curves."

I'll give a second voice to this. The gender discrimination would creep me out.

However:


In the event that a man would want to join Curves, Frusher (Curves Spokeswoman) would tell her club owners to treat him like any other customer. But she questions the motives of a man who would want to join Curves.

Well, this is a scary thread. People doing contortions to justify the unjustifiable. If these deluded whack jobs want to be "true" to their pre-industrial ideology, let them either start their own gym, or move to Pakistan, Saudi, etc. There is no basis - legal or moral - for banning men from a university workout facility simply because of these pathetic "religious" superstitions.

Sullivan's views on Arabs, Muslims, and the Middle East are Churchillian

You are wrong. For example, Sullivan, in contrast to Winston Churchill in 1920, would not support using poison gas against Iraqi insurgents. It was Saddam who was being Churchillian . . .

No, that was racism on the part of the majority. The Harvard policy is a move to assuage discomfort on the part of the minority, you fool. They are asking to be segregated because of their own stricter standards of modesty. Voluntary vs. involuntary exclusion is an important moral distinction which you'd think a conservative would appreciate. In short, this is a 180-degree difference from Rosa Parks. No one is being forcibly excluded from anything.

"Voluntary vs. involuntary exclusion"? Huh? The people who are being excluded are the males - and they are not doing so voluntarily. If the women wanted to voluntarily exclude themselves - and work out at some other place - no one would be complaining! But the problem is that they are asking to exclude others. You have it precisely backwards.

(Not to mention the fact that, at Harvard, as at many universities, women are, in fact, in the majority.)

Shorter Claudius: It is because the students were Muslim that I object.

If you can get past the impact of the policy on little old you, center of the universe, then it's easier to see it as an act of tolerance.

I'm not a Harvard student. This impacts me not at all.

...carving out a tiny little corner of it for someone with 'special needs', of a cultural rather than physical sort.

But the "special need" in this case seems to be, quite literally, the exclusion of other groups.

People can't, as a matter of will, just set aside the feelings of modesty/prudishness they've been brought up with.

I just don't see that modesty can't be served on an individual basis, through modest dress at the gym. Nobody seems to affirmatively want to say that it's impossible to exercise in modest clothing, but if that is the argument here, I just don't see it. It also happens to run counter to the idea that this is a religious request first, meaning that it's the men that are the problem anyway, regardless of attire options.

If you recognize that fact, and are willing to make accomodations for it, you're being a generous person.

Absolutely. It's when these decisions about restricting access become institutional that they feel misguided instead of generous.

how is this really any different than adults-only swim at your local community pool? For a limited amount of time, a certain group is excluded from using the facility. Should we cry "adultofascism" the next time the kiddies are whistled out of the pool?

I'm not a swimmer but I think the rationale is different. Kids are banned because they are likely to interfere with people who are swimming for excercise. A kid who is also a competitive swimmer is probably going to be permitted.

Basically it's targeted at curbing a type of behavior. The analogy to the gym would be to ban a group of floor hockey players from the yoga room and vice versa.

Eagle613, for you civilization, human decency and tolerance were just things that happened to others, weren't they?

Asking a gym full of men to stop what they're doing and go across campus constitutes an undue burden.

That would be for the courts to decide. Of course, the gym is not likely to be full of men who would have to stop what they're doing and go across campus if the policy were communicated appropriately before it went into effect and affected male users of the facility had a reasonable opportunity to adjust their schedules accordingly.

If Harvard had built a separate gym and designated it "women only," no one would object. IT would result in "restricting access" to men because the money spent on such a facility would be money that would not be spent on some other, co-ed resource, but this entire tempest-in-a-teapot would not exist. In fact, the number of resources being expended to accomodate a women-only gym environment for 6 hours a week is much, much tinier than the resources necessary to build a separate women-only gym, but the objections this particular accommodation causes are much, much larger. Thus, I have to regard the objections as simply ridiculous.

I think it's really extraordinary that lots of people in this thread have said that the kind of accommodation that Harvard has offered would be OK if it had been requested on non-religious grounds, but since it was requested by Muslim women, it's not acceptable. Isn't that a pretty clear example of willingness to discriminate against religion -- not just religious practice, but even against religious thought?

For starters, it's pretty pointless to try to separate out these womens' identities as "Muslims" and as "women." Their feelings of discomfort about working out in a shared-sex environment are probably very similar to those of many non-Muslim women, but, because they're religious, they're couched in religious terms. Why should they pay a price for that? Would it really have been better, if they had cynically chosen to avoid religious rhetoric, and put their request in the form of secular feminism?

I also wonder what the anti-accommodationists would -- I think, will -- think, when and if it turns out that many non-Muslim women take advantage of this women-only hour. Will that decontaminate the accommodation, or will it forever be sullied by its Islamofascist, misogynous origin?

I might also add that Sandra Day O'Connor reserved the Supreme Court gym for women-only aerobics for her and the female SCOTUS clerks. Where was the outrage about DISCRIMINATION in a FEDERAL BUILDING? Answer: nowhere, because there was no "Muslim angle" involved.

If Harvard had built a separate gym and designated it "women only," no one would object.

I'm not sure about that. Particularly if it had better, or newer, amenities. Sorry, guys, gotta use the ten-year-old equipment instead of the new exercise machines that we just bought the ladies. That doesn't sound like the easiest sell to me, even leaving aside that it would be an even greater move in the "separate but equal" direction that is philosophically uncomfortable.

In fact, the number of resources being expended to accomodate a women-only gym environment for 6 hours a week is much, much tinier than the resources necessary to build a separate women-only gym, but the objections this particular accommodation causes are much, much larger. Thus, I have to regard the objections as simply ridiculous.

How about this (just going to change a couple of words):

In fact, the number of resources being expended to accomodate a whites-only school environment for 6 hours a week is much, much tinier than the resources necessary to build a separate whites-only school, but the objections this particular accommodation causes are much, much larger. Thus, I have to regard the objections as simply ridiculous.

BFR: You regard Curves gym to be in the same category as a whites-only country club, so you are going to find your analogy apt, while I will not. If you want to go on a national campaign against the existence of women-only gyms because you think they're sexist and discriminatory, go for it, but people will find that as ridiculous as making the same claim against the discriminatory nature of single-sex dormitories.

I am really having a hard time deciding a crucial question: do the intolerant people on the thread fear women or Muslims more? Looking at the pompous idiocies being offered up, I can see why this topic was so irresistible to a gay man who is also Replican. What better way to resolve your own insincerity and contradictions than by attacking another group and sounding bigoted enough to be a real GOP man? Sullivan really picked his perfect topic today, and his disciples are clearly here in force. I hope that Harvard really does send in the lawyers and clean his nasty little clock for him!

Poor old Brad L, I bet you cruise the streets staring resentfully at other people and trying to work out if they have newer equipment than you do! It must make for a very humiliating and philosophically complicated life. Have you considered relaxing and accepting other people once in a while?

Re: To argue that Jesus was a Jew is to overemphasize His humanity at the expense of His divinity.

Nonsense. Jesus was true God and true man, and failing to acknowledge his humanity (with everything that entails-- gender, ethnic identity etc.) smacks of the old monophysite heresy. "Salvation is from the Jews" some pope or Church Father once said, and I don't see why we should be ashamed to admit it.

Re: Judaism lacks the concepts of the Incarnation, the Substitutionary Atonement, etc.

The entire Eastern branch of Christendom also does not buy into the Substitutionary Atonement (we prefer the older Ransom Model instead.)

Re: An even remotely observant American Catholic usually has to use a vacation day for Epiphany

Most Catholic Churches have vesperal masses (and we Orthodox have adapted a vesperal Liturgy for weekday feasts as well) so that one's religious observances can be done the evening before, after work. (Another Jewish inheritance: the Church day begins at sundown, not midnight)

do the intolerant people on the thread fear women or Muslims more?

So, spell it out: how, exactly, does thinking that Harvard is sending a poor signal by excluding groups mean that this is a position rooted in fear?

Seriously, I'm asking. The fearful thing to do is exclude people, not include them. Nobody is saying that people should be excluded from their lives (or school, or whatever). Just that it seems wrong to exclude others as an "accommodation."

I am really having a hard time deciding a crucial question: do the intolerant people on the thread fear women or Muslims more?

Hmm - the 'intolerant' people are the ones who are using the dictionary definition of discrimination. Thus, the tolerant ones are those who think it's fine and dandy to push a group of people around because of their religion/gender etc.

Whatever.

Tyro - You're not reading my posts. I don't have a problem with Curves because discrimination by private entities is generally tolerated (whites only country clubs) and in some cases accepted (women only private gyms) and I don't have a problem with single-sex dorms because it's pretty firmly in the private-space world.

You keep responding to my posts but you apparently aren't reading them so I'm a bit confused.

Brad, it is pretty clearly exclusionary to deny these women a secure space for exercise, while making multiple spaces available to Harvard men. That's denial of anenity, not the fairytale scenarios you keep spinning. You sound like a classic fear-monger, banging on about exclusion, while trying to deny others a small space of their own.

Nobody was stopping them from segregating themselves, or even asking the men in that gym to vacate the premises voluntarily.

Wow. Sure, they could just not go to the gym. Or yes, each and every time a single solitary conservative Muslim woman wanted to work out, she could ask every single man in the place to leave, and hope that worked. What an idiotic response.

The fact is if they were ever going to actually USE THE FACILITY under the conditions they desired, a policy ruling had to be made by the people in charge of it.

Now if the gym had chosen to set aside one area for women's exclusive use, while leaving the rest of the place open to everyone, that would have been cool too. I don't know why it chose not to -- perhaps simply not practical -- but the facility does, after all, belong to Harvard, so it's their call.

(Not to mention the fact that, at Harvard, as at many universities, women are, in fact, in the majority.)

Obviously Harvard is continuing to permit women who have no problem working out with men to do so. This is a case of a *minority of women*, led by but not exclusive to Muslims, asking for special accomodation. That's the minority in question, you fool.

Poor old Brad L, I bet you cruise the streets staring resentfully at other people and trying to work out if they have newer equipment than you do!

Oh, FFS. Tyro suggested that everyone would be sanguine about Harvard building an all new, female-only gym. I'm not so sure about that; people tend to get sensitive about money that is spent on one group but not another. I'm surprised this is a radical assertion, but I remember all the Title IX debates.

Have you considered relaxing and accepting other people once in a while?

Of course. I actually like that people of all stripes are welcome at my gym, and all of the other places I go. This somehow makes me venal.

What's chapping Brad L's ass here is the idea that men could be in the gym at time X but have to leave the gym by time Y. If there were a separate gym that was women only or, I suspect, if the gym opened an hour earlier for a women-only hour, there would be less agitation on his part about the issue.

You know, the people obsessing over the Muslim bit, I can sort of understand: people have a prejudice against muslims and fear that they're going to take over. Brad L and BFR's complaints that men are being "excluded" just strikes me as... naive. Women generally *expect* that there will be women-only living spaces and women-only exercise facilities, so it makes sense that women might request that their university provide them. What shocks me is that Brad L and BFR see this as completely out of bounds, as though they've never heard of such a thing before.

Accommodating cultural and religious norms about body display and sex is utterly crazy. Imagine we lived in a country where women used to be given citations or even arrested for not wearing a top to cover their breasts, but men were allowed to go topless! Or, if we developed an entire ratings scheme for movies, and portrayal of a topless woman could lead to a different rating than a topless man! I mean, what kind of country would use numerous social mores and private institutions to tightly regulate the way its men and women dressed, wore their hair, and interacted -- all to accommodate the cultural and religious norms of the majority. What if it was completely understood and accepted that people had to dress according to strict gender and sexual standards in order to succeed in the workplace, regardless of their ability to do the required tasks.

In a country like that, it might make sense for private institutions to make small accommodations to allow religious and cultural minorities to have experiences that correspond with their personal preferences about prudishness and physical appearance. I mean, the accommodations would have de minimis impact on everyone else, allow minorities to create their own cultural space, and meet their own personal religious standards of conduct. They wouldn't allow them to force others to conform to their norms.

Never mind. In a country like that, the accommodations of minorities would be the real injustice.

Shinyk, the flaw in your reasoning is that it is considered perfectly acceptable to have single-sex gyms. No one, outside of BFR, claims that there is some form of terrible discrimination going on with the existence of "Curves." What if Harvard declined the request from the Muslim students, but just offered to give a voucher for a "Curves" membership to any woman who requested one. Would there be such a tempest over this?

Tyro,

I'd still think it was silly, but no, I wouldn't have nearly the problem with your solution that I do with Harvard's. I also wouldn't have a problem if Muslim tuition was reduced by, say $100 per semester if they refused gym usage on religious grounds. But, then again, I wouldn't have any problem with someone demanding a $100 per semester tuition reduction on the grounds that they are too lazy to go to a gym (though I doubt the university would agree with it).

As far as Curves is concerned, I don't have a problem with it being women-only because they are a private, for profit company offering a service to a niche clientele of their choosing.

So, no flaw in the logic.

Brad L, lots of women-only dorms were build many years after the original (men-only, at the time) dorms were built at universities. If people objected that this was discriminatory because the women's dorms were newer, people would laugh.

Brad, it is pretty clearly exclusionary to deny these women a secure space for exercise...

Are you really casting this as an issue of public safety? If that were the case, I'd still probably want a better solution (such as security guards, lighting, etc), but I'd at least see the reason for wanting it.

You sound like a classic fear-monger...

In what sense? What dire scenario have I painted? Who have I asked anyone to be afraid of? What, exactly, is the fear that I am mongering?

Brad L, lots of women-only dorms were build many years after the original (men-only, at the time) dorms were built at universities. If people objected that this was discriminatory because the women's dorms were newer, people would laugh.

Women generally *expect* that there will be women-only living spaces and women-only exercise facilities, so it makes sense that women might request that their university provide them.

That strikes me as a gross generalization of what women want. We know that the request in this case came from a handful of people who were supported by a larger organization that still probably represents the views of a minority of the population.

I can't believe how stupid the majority of the commentators here are -- having female-only gyms is not like having white-only or Christian-only gyms. Every school in the country has gender segregated bathrooms, locker rooms, showers, sports teams and dorm rooms. (I'm willing to bet there are hundreds that also have women-only times at the gyms, just not specifically in response to Islamic students. I'm reasonably sure The University of Chicago did this 2 hours a week or so when I was there.) Why is a gender segregated gym as bad as the Third Reich?

It's really hilarious to watch Brad and the others trying to play victim. The basic question is one of amenity, namely, are men being denied the right to exercise at Harvard because Muslim women get 6 exclusive hours at one small, remote gym. Clearly, they don't lose amenity - the MAC and other gyms are open to them. But, wails Brad, this just ain't fair. I mean, the poor, delicate boys might..shudder, gasp, cries of no, no... have to walk or take the shuttle across town to... exercise. (We are talking about a 10 minute commute here, btw).

I am sure Brad will say something like "But they want to exercise in that one gym. It is their shining dream. They will not survive being forced brutally to go the MAC." Well, first of all, they ought to be able to drag their bodies that far if they really need to work out. Secondly, there are lots of things we want in life that we don't get just when and where we want them.. Adults deal with this, rather than spinning fantasies about victimhood or religious discrimination. That's called growing up, Brad, and most of us make it to that stage.

Finally, just because we want something doesn't mean we have a right to it exactly on our terms. I may want to eat a ham sandwich in the kosher kitchen, but I have no right to do so, and no right to expect anyone else to allow me to do this. Mature people recognize that others have rights, and plan their lives accordingly. They don't play victim over 6 hours at one gym, when those hours are available at multiple other gyms. Behaving as the victim in those circumstances is not mature, but the conduct of a spoiled brat. It doesn't deserve much debate, and certainly has nothing to do with principle.

I can't believe how stupid the majority of the commentators here are -- having female-only gyms is not like having white-only or Christian-only gyms. Every school in the country has gender segregated bathrooms, locker rooms, showers, sports teams and dorm rooms. (I'm willing to bet there are hundreds that also have women-only times at the gyms, just not specifically in response to Islamic students. I'm reasonably sure The University of Chicago did this 2 hours a week or so when I was there.) Why is a gender segregated gym as bad as the Third Reich?

Shinyk, so I don't see what your problem is. We consider single-sex facilities to be easily available through any number of avenues: dormitories, bathrooms, schools, and gyms. While Harvard has decided, as its educational mission, to provide (and require) a co-ed learning environment, it also provides single-sex bathroom and locker facilities (and maybe dormitory facilities, too-- i don't know). A women-only gym HOUR doesn't seem out of bounds. Even the supreme court, as I mentioned above, provided it. So the objections here just "don't compute" with me. Yeah, it's retrograde, but what do I know? My college had co-ed bathrooms.

I can't believe how stupid the majority of the commentators here are -- having female-only gyms is not like having white-only or Christian-only gyms. Every school in the country has gender segregated bathrooms, locker rooms, showers, sports teams and dorm rooms. (I'm willing to bet there are hundreds that also have women-only times at the gyms, just not specifically in response to Islamic students. I'm reasonably sure The University of Chicago did this 2 hours a week or so when I was there.) Why is a gender segregated gym as bad as the Third Reich?

Why is a gender segregated gym as bad as the Third Reich?

Godwin.

Drjimcooper:

Didn't read all through the thread but how is this really any different than adults-only swim at your local community pool? [...] Should we cry "adultofascism" the next time the kiddies are whistled out of the pool?

Because providing adults some time to use the public space without interruption is an established norm within our culture. There are a number of practices which "we" don't want to become part of the norm, hence the shill whining about this otherwise minor event at Harvard.

Given the large ebb and flow of peoples and cultures within the US, it's normal and rational to harbor some concern about becoming culturally alienated.

Egypt Steve:

I also wonder what the anti-accommodationists would -- I think, will -- think, when and if it turns out that many non-Muslim women take advantage of this women-only hour. Will that decontaminate the accommodation, or will it forever be sullied by its Islamofascist, misogynous origin?

If more than a token number of non-Muslim women do take advantage, I'd consider the accommodation decontaminated. We'll see how it pans out.

Clearly we must force single sex Jesuit schools to integrate to defeat terrorism.

I don't have a problem with single-sex dorms because it's pretty firmly in the private-space world.

You're not grasping my argument: gyms are considered pretty firmly in the private space world, as well. We have no problem with co-ed dorms, and we have no problem with co-ed gyms. But it is also considered perfectly reasonable to ask for single sex dorms and single-sex gyms. YOU are the only person who considers single-sex gym facilities to be on par with discriminatory country clubs. More people consider gym facilities to be more on part with dormitories.

A women-only gym HOUR doesn't seem out of bounds. Even the supreme court, as I mentioned above, provided it. So the objections here just "don't compute" with me. Yeah, it's retrograde, but what do I know? My college had co-ed bathrooms.

Look, if it was a simple decision to have a single sex excercise facility, I definitely wouldn't have been irked by it - at least not to the degree that I am. As you point out, this sort of thing happens all the time. It doesn't make me like it any more to know that it goes on but that's life.

What I find really problematic is that a university decided to actively discriminate (however minor the discrimination may be) against anothe class of students based on their religious preferences.

I can't say it enough - this is a terrible precedent to set, unless you're a big fan of ethnic/racial/cultural balkanization on campus.

Integrate to survive! All must be identical! Where the Third American Reich begins.... Of course, we could just try being sensible about this, rather than listening to the sanctimonious goop about how Muslims all want to be Taleban and these women are the stormtroopers of the Prophet. Six hours at a Harvard gym was the start of Sharia in America! Yeah, right! I really can't believe that some of the posters on here are adults when I hear the arguments they offer.

Shinyk, so I don't see what your problem is...A women-only gym HOUR doesn't seem out of bounds.

My problem is that none of the solutions mentioned in my last post require the active participation of non-Muslims, through exclusion, in the superstitions of Muslims. Harvard's solution does.

Nice try, BFR, but Nazis were already mentioned somewhere around comment #15.

More people consider gym facilities to be more on part with dormitories.

I'm not familiar with prior surveys validating your point of view on this. If you're going to start throwing around "most women expect" and "more people consider" in the discussion, then you should have the decency to support your conclusions.

I'm speaking for myself only FYI.

Shorter BFR:

I will not provide any data to support my claims or views, you, however will be criticized for not turning in your data-set immediately.... Also, I can live with big women-only 24/7 gyms, but a small 6 hours a week women only gym is just a shameful exclusionary device and must be rejected. Wah, wah!

Maintaining a Kosher kitchen does require active participation by any of the people who enter it. As a goy, I used to go to my university's kosher dining hall. I had to keep all the dairy and meat separate. It was tricky, and I think it was unfair that I was FORCED to conform to those requirements. It's true, there were other dining halls, but the Kosher one was closest to my last class before lunch. As a Christian, I was oppressed.

Looks like myi nailed your ass, BFR. Still, I am sure you will explain your contradictions to yourself and happily agree that you are right.

BFR, here's the thing: Harvard could either spend millions of dollars building a women-only gym or designating an entire gym women-only. Instead, they set aside 1 hour a day, 6 days a week for the gym to be women-only: which is more discriminatory towards men? Depriving them of 6 hours a week or depriving them of millions of dollars in university resources? While, quantitatively speaking, the answer is the latter, my guess is that you have a larger visceral reaction against the former because of the mechanics of turning a space where men COULD exercise into a space where they CAN'T for a certain interval of time.

The negative reactions here seem more visceral and emotional than practical and, as I said, if it had been Orthodox Jewish women or fundamentalist Christian women asking for these things (as I am sure they do when single-sex dorms are desired), no one would flip out about it. In this case, enough women who wanted something banded together to ask for it. They just happened to be Muslim. But I understand the objection there, because at least people are saying point blank, "I don't like this because Muslims asked for it."

Went through my old college email folders, and it turns out my school did have female-only hours at one of the gyms. It was three hours a week, not two like I thought. But I guess six is twice as much as three, so society is almost certain to collapse this time around.

As a goy, I used to go to my university's kosher dining hall. I had to keep all the dairy and meat separate. It was tricky, and I think it was unfair that I was FORCED to conform to those requirements.

Yeah, that sux but at least you didn't have to chop your wang off before they'd let you in. Small difference I guess.

It was tricky, and I think it was unfair that I was FORCED to conform to those requirements.

If you're saying you were kicked out of a cafeteria because you ate your own food in the wrong order, thereby outing yourself as a Christian, then yeah, that's just as insulting, though it sounds like bullshit.

So do the Hasidic females enrolled at Harvard get to use the special gym too?

I know, I know, like Amish, there's prolly not a lot of Hasidic women at Harvard, that's my point. :-)

You want to operate differently from majority societal norms, sometimes you have to give some things up. If you want to increase tolerance by forcing majority culture change by rule of law, be prepared for a lot of blowback.

Basically the results for a non-governmental institution for Harvard is that they will gain an image as a conservative-Muslim-friendly place. Is that what they are trying to do? Because that's what they're going to get. Maybe it is a smart thing for a university to do in this day and age, to court conservative Muslims, maybe.

Wow, big pile of comments.

I know this, that if Harvard or any other university that took public funds acceeded to demands for "male-only" hours at a sports facility so they could work out seriously and not be distracted by pussy? You would see a Title IX lawsuit slapped on the University so fast your head would spin.

And this follows the imposition of "Muslim-only" swim hours for both women AND men in Europe at public pools which is causing a firestorm. And a few pools were infidels of the same gender are permitted to swim, but only if they wear suitable Musim attire - the men with navels decently protected from view and women clothed from neck to ankle.

The real name of the game is Muslim cultural aggression. Bit by bit, eradicate practices of the majority population and secure mini-victories for Islam. Each request granted instantly acceeded by a demand for another "small, reasonable accomodation". Activists mount a series of public demands that the multicultis tend to acceed to - which in turn bolsters the radical Islamist leaders power and ability to recruit from claims that Muslims must separate and oppose the sinfil, wicked majority culture until it is "acceptable". Which of course it never will be.

In the UK, Muslims in one area demanded larger housing units for arriving ME refugees than given to Brits in public housing because of a cultural "use of one room for prayer" or need to separate children in rooms by gender and extra wives into their own rooms..Which then led to demands for merchants to remove offensive to Islam adverisements of a sexually suggestive nature. Then demands on schools for Muslim teachers and separate prayer rooms. Then demands for eliminating liquor stores from their now 35% Muslim neighborhood, followed by a "quite reasonable request" that neighbors that cook pork or local CHinese restaurants cooking and serving it be evicted since smelling pork means you are actually taking small parts of haram pig, millions of molecules realeased from cooked flesh into the air - into a Believer's body - unacceptable.
It just goes on and on. France has fought back, but Scandanavia and the UK are still folding like wet cardboard to radical activists that ONLY speak for a few Muslims.
In the UK, a few Iranians have written that they left for the UK and were accepted as refugees precisely in order to get away from such oppressive crap, only to see new "freedom seekers" arrive and try coercing other Muslims into a quasi-Taliban, 100% Wahabbist lifestyle and one where it is encouraged that native infidels of their country outside the Ummah - be hated and relationships with them scorned.

If you really want to play this absurdist Islamic Law game further, then you have to ask about Lesbians. In most readings of Islamic Law it would be forbidden — haram — impermissible — unacceptable in toto — for a Muslim woman to take her clothes off in front of a known lesbian. But, do you think my good sisters are Harvard are banning known Lesbians, though? No. This is why the founders of this country hoped that we could keep religion out of the public sphere, because religion opens up to an endless series of interpretations that ultimately just engender divisiveness."Posted by Ali Eteraz

Good post by Ali, and I am quick to say that I am down only on intolerant Islamists not Muslims here and abroad that seek to get along with other peoples.

And to be sure, the next step in the aggression will be insistance that infidel women allowed in at the "Muslim" times wear non-revealing attire so young Muslim male children who ARE permitted to accompany their mothers are not perverted at a critical stage of child development by infidels in skimpy attire. Then requesting Harvard contact all lesbians and inform them they are not welcome during "Muslim Time".

And the home issue extends to men, and possibility that there will be demands to ban homos from Muslim male gym time..And have the school provide a list of who must be barred..

**********************
The other point is that banning men for one hour actually bans men from a three hour time block if they are like me. Many guys have a long gym workout. Mine is an hour and a half to two hours. Cardiovascular and weights. With a 10-15 minute cool off between workout segments.

If I only have a 3-hour workout window each day based on work or school class/lab times, and the Muslim women are in sole control in the middle hour, I am completely unaccomodated.

Scheduling works like that, as anyone who has made a "small schedule change" then beset by people coming in with all sorts of valid reasons why it really disrupts them knows very well.

********************
My solution is they work out and swim in Burquas.
End of problem.

BFR said: "Yeah, that sux but at least you didn't have to chop your wang off before they'd let you in. Small difference I guess."


So you really are just a closet anti-Semite BFR? Peddling a few little myths here and there to amuse your Jew-baiting friends? Funny, because there you wre trying to convince us that you were sincerely debating this issue, albeit in a pretty self-contradictory way. Well, now we know.

artappraiser, did you not realize that the space was women-only, not muslim-only, or are you just pulling our chain to amuse yourself?

Yeah, but as I and a lot of other people have pointed out, private institutions in this country constantly treat women and men differently to accommodate the cultural and religious preferences of the majority. So, it's weird to suggest that a minor accommodation for a minorities' different set of cultural and religious preferences is so horrible.

Women simply aren't allowed to go naked from the waist up when men are. There is no rational reason to mandate that, other than our cultural and religious preferences. But, at numerous pools, gyms, and fields, local rules will allow shirtless men and forbid topless women.

Instead, they set aside 1 hour a day, 6 days a week for the gym to be women-only: which is more discriminatory towards men? Depriving them of 6 hours a week or depriving them of millions of dollars in university resources? While, quantitatively speaking, the answer is the latter, my guess is that you have a larger visceral reaction against the former because of the mechanics of turning a space where men COULD exercise into a space where they CAN'T for a certain interval of time.

I'm not really in favor of building the separate gym - maybe I phrased that poorly. I was ok with the idea of the Curves voucher. Building the women's only gym seems like a crappy solution too, it's still telegraphing the message that it's ok to discriminate.

I do have a visceral reaction to it, but again it's not because of the single-sex issue. It's not how I would operate but it's not something that bugs me a ton.

What concerns me is that the origin of this is religious. If this were BYU or Notre Dame, I wouldn't find it as offensive, but since it's a very widely recognized and widely followed, non-religious institution...I just don't really like the implications.

I wonder, could chris_ford be the closet bigot Andrew Sullivan in disguise? They both sound like the GOP wet-dream poster boy, and they both peddle a vicious form of racist bigotry. Of course, neither of them would actually dare to say this sort of thing around real people, because a smack in the teeth might just reveal what pathetic little poseurs they really are. Classic immature children.

I said, if it had been Orthodox Jewish women or fundamentalist Christian women asking for these things (as I am sure they do when single-sex dorms are desired), no one would flip out about it.

I doubt the story would have gotten around, but yes, I would find it no less problematic if I was told by a Mennonite that I couldn't be in the University library at 5 PM due to my maleness. Of course, Harvard never would have countenanced such a request from a Mennonite.

Asking someone else to participate in your own superstition is where the line is crossed. While I will defend the freedom of fundamentalist Christians to self-flagellate (that's mostly a myth, by the way) or Muslims to segregate themselves by gender (by choice, not by law), the price of choosing to have arbitrary superstitions like these is that you work around it, not that others be made to work around it.

Paging Ali Eteraz, your token eunuch has arrived - chris_ford is in da house!

Asking someone else to participate in your own superstition is where the line is crossed. While I will defend the freedom of fundamentalist Christians to self-flagellate (that's mostly a myth, by the way) or Muslims to segregate themselves by gender (by choice, not by law), the price of choosing to have arbitrary superstitions like these is that you work around it, not that others be made to work around it.

Shinyk is describing my discomfort way better than I am.

It's funny people are bringing up adult swim. It always pissed me off when I was a kid, so when I became a lifeguard, I--and a lot of other guards--tried for a sort of Don't Ask, Don't Tell policy.

We knew easily who was old enough--it was marked on their entry cards. If someone could plausibly 'pass' for an adult, though, and could more-or-less act like one, we let it go.

It's reasonable enough to want to swim laps without colliding with fighting 9 year olds. But anyone who's offended by the mere presence of teenagers in the same pool with them is an asshole.

Well yes, artappraiser, why wouldn't Hassidic women get to use the gym too? And I'm not sure why you think there aren't many of them at Harvard; I'm sure they're over-represented relative to their share of the population.

"Voluntary vs. involuntary exclusion"? Huh? The people who are being excluded are the males - and they are not doing so voluntarily.

Hey, you're the one who said a group of women asking for help self-segregating within common facilities was the same as segregation laws imposed on blacks by whites. I pointd out that was ridiculous, and it is.

Now I realize that MEN are the Rosa Parks in your analogy. That's really funny, and kind of pathetic if you actually believe that. No one told Parks she had to sit at the back of ONE bus a FRACTION of the time.

Wow. A minor and temporary imposition on men is the same as Jim Crow exclusions. Unbelievable.

BFR - is there an argument somewhere in all your posts? You seem to be saying that religion is ok at religious schools, but it bothers you at non-religious schools? Don't you find that amazingly incoherent, to put it kindly? Shouldn't we just say that prehistoric fanatics ought to be bombed back to the stone age and leave it there?

The problem I have with Shinyk's point is that we have arbitrary rules and norms -- many originally rooted in religion, others not -- that we expect people to conform to all the time. That's part of being human and part of a larger community.

Part of the irony here is that the Muslim women at Harvard who are taking advantage of this probably make constant compromises and accommodations to larger American culture every day. Some of them may become leaders who transform Islam and make it less sexist.

This gets back to going to the kosher dining hall. I went in, and they told me about using separate utensils, trays, and everything for meat and dairy. And I did it, because it's well mannered. I was respecting their beliefs and customs. That's part of life. We do numerous irrational things, and we conform to numerous irrational rules set by different communities. We usually only notice, though, when a minority group asks us to do it, because the majority's irrational rules and expectations so pervade our life experience that they seem second nature.

You seem to be saying that religion is ok at religious schools, but it bothers you at non-religious schools? Don't you find that amazingly incoherent, to put it kindly?

Yeah, that's what I'm saying and no, I don't find it incoherent. BYU, Notre Dame and the like were organized and funded by religious groups. When ND sets a policy, it's at least intended to comply with the teachings of the Roman Catholic church - and when they speak, everyone knows you're at least partly hearing the voice of the church.

Harvard, however is not under any pressure to set regulations based on a religious code. Harvard is also a significant institution in US public image and I percieve that it has a stron influence on the direction of education in this country.

I guess I would say that I feel the same way about this incident as I do about the Roy Moore 10 Commandments deal down in Alabama.

It's just jamming religion into other people's faces and forcing them to comply with your religious worldview.

This gets back to going to the kosher dining hall. I went in, and they told me about using separate utensils, trays, and everything for meat and dairy. And I did it, because it's well mannered. I was respecting their beliefs and customs. That's part of life.

But they still allowed you to eat there, so long as you respected their customs. That's not the same thing as saying in effect that your presence offends my religious views and therefore you should be banished from this place.

It seems pretty straight-forward to me.

Wow, this is bringing back memories of a big controversy my sophomore year about whether the (voluntary) exclusion of men from a seminar on Women and Biology taught by Ruth Hubbard violated Title IX.

But you still haven't addressed the huge number of rules we have forbidding conduct by one gender that is allowed to another. I find that far more oppressive. Personally, I enjoy being shirtless. If I were a woman, I wouldn't be allowed to do that in many of the places I can do it now. Isn't that more oppressive and upsetting than being excluded from one gym three times a week?

Also, I think you're trying to draw a very strange line. We should accommodate different, irrational customs, all of them -- save one. Segregation! Why? Personally, I don't believe that different people should be separated by sex and gender, but I don't see why that custom is so uniquely more oppressive than any other.

You seem to think that we should only accommodate those views and cultural and religious viewpoints that we find agreeable. But who draws that line? And do we want institutions of higher learning drawing it -- or is a school like Harvard allowing different cultural and religious communities to develop and grow, and then it's allowing its students to assess for themselves what they think of them?

Also, as someone who has numerous viewpoints, beliefs, and characteristics that are not shared by the majority, I'd prefer a pluralistic rule that still allowed me some space rather than a big-daddy-makes the rules for you approach from an institution of higher learning.

And yes, the nature of the accommodation becomes key here. If this in anyway limited the opportunities open to men, it would be completely different.

Keep in mind too -- many of these big schools have churches and church services on campus. Although anyone is welcome to attend, if you're not a believer you can't take communion at many of them. Is that level of exclusion completely unacceptable? Should the schools exclude all religious groups and communities from using school resources.

Tyro, Ryan, and others--the question still stands: if this religiously-based exclusionary policy is OK or no big deal to you, how far are you prepared to let such things go? Would fundamentalist Christian-only, or Muslim-only, dorms be OK? What about Jews-only kosher dining rooms? Where do you draw the line?

You seem to think that we should only accommodate those views and cultural and religious viewpoints that we find agreeable.

I see your point and I'll grant you: The status quo is what it is and many of our traditions are still loosely derived from Christianity, which doesn't change the fact that they are irrational.

The question to me is how deferential should Harvard be to issues that are religious in nature. I am comfortable with doing things like building kosher/halal dining halls because they offer an opportunity to experience these other cultures and do not restrict the ability of othe groups to participate.

Denying access to a building or a service on the basis of a religious viewpoint does the opposite. I think it probably builds a sense of a resentment and a 'why can't I have that too' attitude that I don't think is healthy on a university campus.

The reason why I, ultimately, am not bothered by this is because it is well within American cultural norms to have "women only hours" at a gym or in a pool, and since there are multiple gyms available on campus, this doesn't seem like a burden. It just so happens that co-ed gym facilities are so common as to be considered the norm now, much like co-ed dormitories are now the norm, but I hardly consider it discriminatory if we revert to these older, more conservative norms in limited circumstances to accommodate those who prefer them.

I had a college experience that was as libertine as anyone's, but even I realize that some people have much more conservative norms when it comes to these sorts of things, and I am willing to give them space for that. Just because the origins of those specific conservative norms happen to be Muslim doesn't make their claims invalid. The slippery slope argument is the only one worth worrying about, but the existence of kosher kitchens and a much larger number of jewish students at harvard hasn't turned it into a Yeshiva, so I don't worry so much.

Ali Eteraz:

When I wrote about the sexual undertone of working out at a gym, you objected: "No, there is nothing inherently sexual about it. If you find it sexual, its your own (un)doing. I expect to hear this point of view in a madrassa in Pakistan, not in uber-left Yglesias' comments section."

Get real, Ali. Have a look, some time, at "Pumping Iron," or at "Playboy Aerobics." Nothing sexual about that???

Now I realize that MEN are the Rosa Parks in your analogy.

Well, I'm glad you finally figured out who are the people that the powers that be are discriminating against.

Now, if you can just explain to me why simply making Rosa Parks sit in the back instead of the front was so bad...

I might be biased by my own experience. If I hadn't majored in resentment in college, I never would have been able to get a masters in outrage in one year. And, thanks to all that hard work, my PhD in cynicism only took 2 more years. I think my dissertation may be archived in the comments section of that old, pro-war blog Tacitus.

Would fundamentalist Christian-only, or Muslim-only, dorms be OK?

Claudius, when I was in college, the conservative Christians and conservative Muslims (male and female) had a huge preference for single-sex dormitories. Even though I lived in a co-ed dorm and at times had to share co-ed bathrooms, I did not object to the fact that certain people wanted single-sex facilities. Nor did I complain of discrimination over the fact that the all-women's dorm was newer than a lot of the co-ed dorms. Plus, other people preferred these living environments for reasons not religious in nature, and those with such preferences partook of that, as well.

Your main problem seems to be that these women making this request are Muslim. I say: they're making a request well within accepted societal norms, and they're not placing any undue burden on the rest of the community, so the fact that they are Muslim doesn't matter.

Tyro--fair enough, but when you say "The slippery slope argument is the only one worth worrying about", well, that's pretty much the one we've been worrying about all along.

Also, while it's true that "the existence of kosher kitchens and a much larger number of jewish students at harvard hasn't turned it into a Yeshiva", the Jewish students of Harvard aren't--as far as I know--demanding the exclusion of other students in order to better adhere to religious doctrine.

"Claudius, when I was in college, the conservative Christians and conservative Muslims (male and female) had a huge preference for single-sex dormitories."

Dude, single-sex dorms wasn't what I was talking about. I said Christian or Muslim only dorms. You pasted what I wrote. Come on.

I said Christian or Muslim only dorms.
Yes, but you said something way off topic and having nothing to do with what we were discussing, so I brought you down to earth.

Andrew, God love him, just can't stand the thought of a man being excluded from a gym, for any reason.

Tyro, you have yet to address the slippery slope argument. Again, I ask you, where would you draw the line???

I know noone will read this far, but...

As someone upstream noted, these are women who, under Sharia law, would be unable to attend an educational institution (could be killed for attending?)

By definition, then they are not zealots. They are, in fact, in a great position to diminish such zealotry in the future by being a (Harvard-)educated female Moslem. If you want to overthrow radical Islam, you should be doing what you can to rah, rah these gals through -- including giving 'em a place to work out in private if they want it.

As someone upstream noted, these are women who, under Sharia law, would be unable to attend an educational institution (could be killed for attending?)

Um, actually, the majority of university students in Saudi Arabia are female. Women are hardly killed for seeking education. (They attend completely separate campuses and have the lectures of their male professors streamed to them over videoconferencing systems, but that's another matter.)

What I find most surprising about this whole affair is that Harvard didn't have any women-only gym times prior to this episode, since it seems like virtually every other college in the country does.

Apparently, I've conflated the Taliban's interpretation of Sharia with Sharia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taliban

Still, I think my point holds.

I've noticed that none of you who support this measure has found a way to explain where to draw the line. You have also refused to address the challenge presented:

If a group a white Christian fundamentalist males asked for exclusive gym hours, would you or would you not support them?

Look deep in your hearts for the answer. What would be your initial gut reaction? Cognitive dissonance anyone? ;)

This is a policy that consists entirely of exclusion. Men are prevented from using the facilities purely for being in possession of a certain set of genitals.

Considered rationally this is clearly an absurdity. If people are of the view that it would somehow be "Immodest" or so on to exercise around those with an alternative set of sexual organs to their own then they are welcome to feel that way, what they are not entitled to do is enforce this prejudice upon those around them.

This holds true of whether they believe their reasoning to be divinely inspired or otherwise. Beliefs are those viewpoints which can not be supported by facts and as such can not be rationally forced upon others. They are welcome to have faith in whatever they please but to inconvenience others and insist upon bigoted exclusion is intolerable.

Face it, the moslims are taking over. They own McCain, Obama, and Clinton. Pretty soon Friday will be the new Sabbath, and America will become the next France. Look at how fast they breed.

"Face it, the moslims are taking over. They own McCain, Obama, and Clinton. Pretty soon Friday will be the new Sabbath, and America will become the next France. Look at how fast they breed."

This is a parody, correct? If the Muslims "Own" John McCain why is he proposing saying in a Muslim country for 10,000 if that's what it takes to "Win"?

To Revamp, McCain has repeatedly said Islam is a respectable religion that has been hijacked by evil people. If he had any balls he would admit that they are trying to hijack us.

Every school in the country has gender segregated bathrooms, locker rooms, showers, sports teams and dorm rooms.

Right - because they built those facilities specifically for that purpose. And an interesting fact you omit is that, generally, the respective male and female versions of those facilities are located basically in the same place; it's not usually necessary for one group to go all the way across campus because they've been barred from the facilities nearest them because of the prejudices of others.

As it is in this case.

a group of women asking for help self-segregating

LOL! In addition to being a delightful oxymoron, that's an incredible act of obfuscation you've achieved, there.

"Self-segregating" would be if they'd started their own gym. There's nothing "self" about it when they appropriate the power of campus security to involuntarily evict the men. There's nothing "self" about it, at all.

Take this story, substitute "Zoroastrian", "Hindu", "Amish", "Mennonite", or anything else like that for "Muslim", and all the foamers, etc. would most likely shrug their shoulders and say "meh" about this whole thing.

""Six times a week, Harvard kicks all the guys out of the Quadrangle Recreational Athletic Center..."

What if, say, three days per week, the major outlets in the blogosophere kicked Jewish bloggers offline. Imagine how offensive it must be for Muslims to see Jews dominating so much of political opinion in this country. On the days that Matt would be home spinning his driedel, the Atlantic could find some Muslim in Gaza or Waziristan and let him guest blog.

Kevin, I'm sure you would be one of those foamers if these were white male fundamentalist Christians. You stinking hypocrite.

Some women talk much too much in the libraries, and it annoys some men. Also, good looking women are distracting to many men. Therefore:

Women should be barred from the use of libraries, but only at certain times so that it's not unfair to them. Likewise, female librarians should be barred from working during those hours, even if it's a shift they've worked for many years and have scheduled their lives around.


Obviously in a free society it's the role of authorities to bar innocent people from public spaces where their presence might annoy someone else.

Take this story, substitute "Zoroastrian", "Hindu", "Amish", "Mennonite", or anything else like that for "Muslim", and all the foamers, etc. would most likely shrug their shoulders and say "meh" about this whole thing.
Yup. I'm glad that at least a few people in this thread have been honest about their feelings there. For years, women-only gyms or women-only hours at the gym have been part of the landscape and no one blinks. Add that this request was made at the behest of Muslim women, however (plus the Harvard angle, what with it being a hotbed of Marxism and all), and the crazy people come out. Notably, I might add, the same group of crazy people inveighing against the debaunchery of The Youth of Today™ at our Leftist Universities™ that has been brought about by co-ed bathrooms and dormitories.

You didn't hear these loons shooting off their mouth about this:

Justice Sandra Day O'Connor uses the court for women-only classes of yoga-style aerobics.
so it's pretty funny to hear them accusing everyone else of being hypocrites. They're just a few steps away from being the foaming-at-the-mouth MRAs outside a bar protesting against "ladies' night".

"To Revamp, McCain has repeatedly said Islam is a respectable religion that has been hijacked by evil people. If he had any balls he would admit that they are trying to hijack us."

Uh-huh, the man who endured torture for years rather than tell the tormentors what they wanted to hear has no balls and you, the low-budget bigot, clearly has.

"and the crazy people come out. Notably, I might add, the same group of crazy people inveighing against the debaunchery of The Youth of Today™ at our Leftist Universities™ that has been brought about by co-ed bathrooms and dormitories."

Right, if in doubt accuse your opponents of being insane. Well there is a case for that with me, I suppose and you could also call me a wingnut with moderate accuracy but I am unquestionably NOT a Townhall reader.

The reason that I object is not because they are Muslims, but because they are demanding exclusion of another group entirely. They are forcing an entire section of their fellows to depart from facilities when they have done nothing wrong, purely for having a certain set of genitals.

This is clearly indefensible and arguing the motivational fallacy {you are bigots against Muslims, therefore would be opposed to Muslims being accommodated} only emphasises this point.

Oh yes, and let me take this opportunity to say that I find Justice O'Connor's activities equally offensive. Bigotry is intolerable anywhere, for any reason.

MDtoMN is making lots and lots of sense.

Vanya up above is exaggerating about Epiphany, Easter Monday, Corpus Christi (especially since Epiphany and Corpus Christi are officially celebrated on Sundays in the U.S.), but he is right about Good Friday, which is almost never recognized by private entities. (It is, however, a day off from public school in some states, but so is Yom Kippur is in some school districts that have heavy Jewish populations). The nation does grind to a halt for one Christian holiday that has become thoroughly secularized, but not for all of them. Even Sunday laws are largely non-existent these days, except in certain areas such as the aforementioned mail.

P.S. There was a time when the mail was delivered on Sundays, and it was very controversial: http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0275-1275(199024)10%3A4%3C517%3ATSSTPS%3E2.0.CO%3B2-4

(Article only readable if you are reading from a terminal that has a J-STOR subscription are willing to shell out $12.)

Claudius:

Tyro, Ryan, and others--the question still stands: if this religiously-based exclusionary policy is OK or no big deal to you, how far are you prepared to let such things go?

I don't know. Having an opinion on this case doesn't require me to have an opinion on every other hypothetical case you can dream up. To me, what makes this case easy is that women-only gyms are widely accepted in our society, and that's what this is. Indeed, lots of *campuses* besides Harvard have women-only gym hours, which is often a more practical measure than building a separate facility. More broadly, public spaces turning into private spaces temporarily is a very common thing on campuses. Women's groups reserve classrooms, Muslim groups reserve meeting space, intramural groups reserve basketball courts, and other people have to leave when that time rolls around. BFD.

Al:

Now, if you can just explain to me why simply making Rosa Parks sit in the back instead of the front was so bad...

Once again: Why does making an argument about a women's gym require me to explain Rosa Parks to you? It's not the same thing. Sexual modesty *felt by a group* and racial bigotry *directed at a group* are two different motives for exclusion. One is OK, one is not. Our society accomodates the former all the time -- single-sex bathroom, locker rooms, etc. You just don't like this one because the headline featured Muslims, and you feel a repugnance for Muslims. But the fact is, no one is creating a Muslims-only gym here; it's a women-only gym.

Chet:

"Self-segregating" would be if they'd started their own gym. There's nothing "self" about it when they appropriate the power of campus security to involuntarily evict the men. There's nothing "self" about it, at all.

Uh, yeah there is. They requested it themselves. They want a separate space. Segregation is not being imposed on them. That's why's it's "self". Really, it's not a complex thought, though apparently it is for you.

And yeah, they asked for help from the university rather than create their own gym. The university acceded. It's their facility; it's their right. But once again, only in your dystopian fantasy are campus security (no doubt with swarthy faces, robes and daggers) dragging men off the stairmaster kicking and screaming. Hours are posted, men are advised in advance when the facility will convert to women-only, and they plan their workout accordingly. If they don't plan accordingly, well, then they have to leave when the time rolls around, just like they have to leave the basketball court when the IM game starts up, or the library study carrel when the person for whom it's reserved arrives. There are other basketball courts, there are other study carrels, there are other gyms they can go to.

@ roswell
It's really hilarious to watch Brad and the others trying to play victim

Give me an example of this. My only argument was and has been that the exclusion of one group from a common area, at the behest of another, is pretty much the antithesis of tolerance. I'm not claiming that long-suffering men need to be coddled in some way.

@MDtoMN
We should accommodate different, irrational customs, all of them -- save one. Segregation! Why? Personally, I don't believe that different people should be separated by sex and gender, but I don't see why that custom is so uniquely more oppressive than any other.

You seem like a pretty bright person. I'm betting that if you reflect just a little, you might understand why segregation, as a custom, might in fact be uniquely oppressive.

@Tyro
You're not grasping my argument: gyms are considered pretty firmly in the private space world, as well. We have no problem with co-ed dorms, and we have no problem with co-ed gyms. But it is also considered perfectly reasonable to ask for single sex dorms and single-sex gyms.

This is the one respectable argument in the bunch.

The reason I find it unconvincing lies largely in my own experience -- I've not really bumped into "women-only" hours at the gyms or pools that I've belonged to. And those that exist, I think, are not enforced so much as respected, which is quite different. For example, Curves (as noted above) would allow, but not encourage, male participation, and I suspect most other instances like this are the same.

Ultimately, I do think that gyms are a common space in a way that bathrooms orlocker rooms are not; as you note above, that is how almost all gyms operate that way almost all of the time. On a level of both gut and personal experience, I've found them to be far more like libraries and cafeterias than bathrooms or dorms.

If this is really the crux of our disagreement, I'm willing to let it go here, each of us having failed to convince the other.

[For what it's worth, I've always thought that single-sex dorms mostly exist either in service of privacy (such as when I lived in a dorm that had a communal bathroom-shower area, and was consequently segregated by wing) or concerns about safety and security, in a far more concrete way than has been proposed in providing a "safe" gym experience.]

"Sexual modesty *felt by a group* and racial bigotry *directed at a group* are two different motives for exclusion. One is OK, one is not."

The consequence is that men are excluded as a gender. This is collective punishment without a crime.

"Uh, yeah there is. They requested it themselves. They want a separate space. Segregation is not being imposed on them. That's why's it's "self". Really, it's not a complex thought, though apparently it is for you."

Well this is a meaningless distinction. Whites requested segregation from blacks. The point is that it is being forced upon men, who are being given no say in whether or not they are permitted to use these facilities.

We are establishing a primacy of squeamishness over reason.


We need some courageous students to test Harvard's "tolerance" for "diversity". I really hope we get some Christian students asking for their own hours. Oh yeah, don't forget Jewish hours and Hindi hours! Give some to the Buddhists too!

First, these aren't Muslim hours, they're women-only hours. Muslim men are not permitted, and Christian and Jewish and Hindi and Buddhist and Agnostic and Atheist and moderate non-gender-segregated Muslim women are.

Second, if other religions have similar issues, then they should be similarly accomodated. However, while some ultra-Orthodox Jews have similar prohibitions to those held by conservative Muslims, I'm not aware of any sect that prohibits women from seeing men working out in exercise wear. But if you founded the First Church Of Girls Have Cooties and it caught on, it should be allowed to schedule six gender-segregated one-hour exercise sessions per week in a single gym as well.

"If they don't plan accordingly, well, then they have to leave when the time rolls around, just like they have to leave the basketball court when the IM game starts up, or the library study carrel when the person for whom it's reserved arrives."

If they wish to take part in the event or wish to keep their place unmolested then they can attempt to join the team or book a reservation. If they wish to use the gym in that hour what measure is left open to them in order for them to pursue such a desire?

"First, these aren't Muslim hours, they're women-only hours. Muslim men are not permitted, and Christian and Jewish and Hindi and Buddhist and Agnostic and Atheist and moderate non-gender-segregated Muslim women are."

Meaning that this still constitutes a bigoted policy.

"But if you founded the First Church Of Girls Have Cooties and it caught on, it should be allowed to schedule six gender-segregated one-hour exercise sessions per week in a single gym as well."

Why?

They requested it themselves. They want a separate space. Segregation is not being imposed on them. That's why's it's "self". Really, it's not a complex thought, though apparently it is for you.

You are the one missing the forest for the trees. In any effort at segregation, there is a group requesting segregation, and a group that might not appreciate it. All segregation, in this way, is ultimately self-segragation -- some group is seeking to insulate itself from another. I think it is pretty obvious why this should be disconcerting; for nearly all of our country's history, the cause of segregation has not exactly been on the side of the angels.

If you want to argue that, hey, in this case, it's no big deal, fine. But that's why it feels wrongheaded to me. And wrapping it up in the cloak of "tolerance" just adds insult; segregation is a fundamentally intolerant act.

"First, these aren't Muslim hours, they're women-only hours."

It's the intent that matters, not the rule itself. We need to do with Muslims, what we do with every other culture. Tell them to stop whining and deal with it if they are different.

The consequence is that men are excluded as a gender. This is collective punishment without a crime.

So you dismiss the *motive* for the exclusion and say the only thing that matters is the *consequence* of the exclusion. Well, it's not the only thing that matters. The consequence of single-sex public bathrooms is exactly the same -- "men are excluded as a gender". Do you have a problem with that? Do you see that as punishment of men? I doubt it, because you probably think there's a reasonable *motive* for the exclusion -- widely accepted notions of modesty. Well, I think the motive being served in the case of women-only gym hours is reasonable, too. You obviously disagree. But it's Harvard's call -- it can allocate its vast resources as it sees fit, according to what it sees as its larger mission. I'd be curious to know whether you disagree with its decision because there's Muslims involved, or just because you're a man not accustomed to being denied things you think you're entitled to (even when they don't actually belong to you).

Whites requested segregation from blacks.

Uh, no. Whites imposed it.

The point is that it is being forced upon men, who are being given no say in whether or not they are permitted to use these facilities.

True, it's being forced upon men. You know why? Because "men" generally do not own the facilities in question. Harvard does. And by the way, as I recall, men are reasonably well represented in the power structure of Harvard. And I'd say the interests of "men" generally at Harvard are being more than adequately served. They still have lots and lots of gym space and time available to them. It's facilitY, not "facilitIES" as you write, being affected here.

If they wish to take part in the event or wish to keep their place unmolested then they can attempt to join the team or book a reservation.

"Attempt" being the operative word. Sometimes you can't just join because you want to. Life's like that. I realize privileged white men have a problem accepting that sometimes, but it's a fact.

If they wish to use the gym in that hour what measure is left open to them in order for them to pursue such a desire?

Go to another gym. Just because you "wish" it doesn't mean you're entitled.

for nearly all of our country's history, the cause of segregation has not exactly been on the side of the angels.

You're stuck on thinking about this in terms of race. Our society remains, today, very accepting of gender-based segregation. That's what this is.

segregation is a fundamentally intolerant act.

Again, no. Sometimes it is. But sometimes it's a way of accomodating standards of sexual modesty which our society deems reasonable.

Tell them to stop whining and deal with it if they are different.

JordanT, I think you have a future on John McCain's foreign policy team.

My gym has separate changing rooms for men and women. Can you imagine if they did that for blacks or Jews???????????

????

??

?

You're stuck on thinking about this in terms of race. Our society remains, today, very accepting of gender-based segregation. That's what this is.

I'm not, though. Gender-based segregation in common areas is generally not tolerated. It's not as if there isn't a history of gender discrimination, ranging from suffrage and property rights to more recent changes (my alma mater didn't start accepting women until 1969).

You're either convinced that gyms are a domain of privacy like locker rooms and bathrooms (I'm certainly not), or you think that just a little discrimination here and there is just peachy. I just can't bring myself to the conclusion that this is the right way to go.

segregation is a fundamentally intolerant act.

Again, no. Sometimes it is. But sometimes it's a way of accomodating standards of sexual modesty which our society deems reasonable.

I'll ask again, just for the heck of it: are you really contending that it is not possible to exercise while maintaining basic standards of modesty? This rationale just seems really, really thin to me -- it seems like "modesty" here is defined explicitly by the presence of others, which is bothersome.

Notice that those who support this move by Harvard have yet to reply to this challenge:

If a group a white Christian fundamentalist males asked for exclusive gym hours, would you or would you not support them?

Look deep in your hearts for the answer. What would be your initial gut reaction? Cognitive dissonance anyone? ;)


It's the intent that matters, not the rule itself. We need to do with Muslims, what we do with every other culture. Tell them to stop whining and deal with it if they are different.

I'm not sure that's really such a good idea, but, hey, if it's what we do with every other culture...

Since that's settled then, I guess we should find a new discussion topic. How about the implications of the recent removal of the phrase "In God We Trust" from U.S. currency, or of the phrase "under God" from the Pledge of Allegiance? I've got to say, I was surprised at how cheerfully the Christians stopped whining and dealt with it.

cminus, spoken like a person who knows nothing of U.S. history and willfully ignores our Judeo-Protestant culture. Oh wait, but history and culture don't matter to the Sophists, post-modernists and multiculturalists.

Notice that those who support this move by Harvard have yet to reply to this challenge...

TLB, is that you? Give us more of your tuff kweschuns! The stupid queue filled up early on in this thread, and none of us had the time or inclination to get to your number. Show up earlier, next time.

So this would be good news for the Augusta Country Club? Cant' have women members as this would lead to temptation and unseemly behavior by male members?

Even accepting that ours is traditionally a "Judeo-Protestant" culture, and that there are good reasons why Harvard or the Federal government would close on Christmas (or whatever), is it really so unacceptable that an institution like Harvard might want to find reasonable and practical ways to make some accommodation to some of the minority religious beliefs or cultural traditions of some of its students? The idea that women-only gym hours are somehow beyond the pale is completely bizarre.


Look deep in your hearts for the answer. What would be your initial gut reaction?

My initial reaction would be, "why?"

As far as I know, there's nothing in white male Christian fundamentalism that would require segregation on the basis of race, gender, religion and sect to use an athletic facility. Even Christian Identity, which makes a religion out of racial discrimination, anti-Semitism, and anti-Catholicism has no prohibition that I'm aware of against exercising in the presence of non-whites or Jews or Catholics.

But maybe I'm wrong -- hence the "why?" -- and there's some ultra-extremist wing of Christian Identity that has sincerely adopted, say, an absolute prohibition on exercising in the presence of practicing Catholics. In that case, I would say, yes, they have essentially the same right to set up no-practicing-Catholics workout times as do Muslim women to set up no-men workout times. (I also believe the Illinois Nazis had the right to march in Skokie. Same idea.)

I will admit that the key weasel word above is "sincerely." If some Christian Identity kids were to be accepted to Harvard, arrive on campus, and then get a revelation from the home cult prohibiting them from exercising in the presence of Catholics, I would be inclined to doubt the sincerity of the new doctrine. Doctrines need track records before outsiders can be sure they're really taken as doctrine.

(I also believe the Illinois Nazis had the right to march in Skokie. Same idea.)

Aaaah. I think my head will explode. The "same idea" would be banning the Illinois Nazis for the comfort of the rest of us, in an effort to enforce "tolerance." Letting them flap their arms about like the fools they are is the logical and necessary conclusion of good civil liberty policies.


Aaaah. I think my head will explode. The "same idea" would be banning the Illinois Nazis for the comfort of the rest of us, in an effort to enforce "tolerance."

No, no, no. The "same idea" as banning the Illinois Nazis from marching in Skokie for the comfort of the majority would be banning the religiously-motivated single-sex use of the gym for the comfort of the majority. I'm against both.

It's not a "tolerance" issue, it's a freedom of expression issue. The presumption is that minority groups -- including Illinois Nazis and Muslims -- have a right (not an absolute right, but a real one nonetheless) to express their political and religious beliefs, even if the majority wishes they wouldn't.

Tyro, if the answer to the challenge was listed above, why don't you simply copy & paste it?

I ask the question about "white christian males" because I affirm that you and the other folks who support Harvard's decision are doing it for the wrong reasons. My logical guess is that most of you who support Harvard's decision would condemn white christian males seeking exclusionary priviliges at a public facility (for the Harvard community) as bigots.

Tyro, you're a hypocrite. And labeling a legitimate question and challenge as "stupid" isn't helping your case.

whtdrw, but this isn't simply a case of creating women-only hours. It's also a case of Muslims seeking special segregated and exclusionary rights. It's important to recognize this distinction.

Mike -

Well, I didn't say that it was only about creating women-only gym hours. I said that it's about creating women-only gym hours in service of making an effort to accommodate some of the minority religious beliefs and cultural traditions of some of Harvard's students, within the bounds of what's reasonable and practical. I don't see that the solution they came up with is unreasonable.

"It's unreasonable because it's exclusionary!"

Well, it's a compromise. I have lots of Indian friends and co-workers, and even though I do enjoy a nice piece of beef every now and then, when it's my turn to pick where we go out to lunch I tend not to pick the steakhouse, you know? Harvard's Muslims and non-Muslims are all sharing the same public space. If Harvard wants to carve out a small portion of that public space to give Muslim women a place to comfortably work out for a few hours a week, well, why not? The Muslim women's request isn't borne out of malice towards men. It may not be ideal for everyone, but it's reasonable because there are other gyms open to men during that time, and this particular gym is open to men every other hour of the week.

Hector: "Moreover he was a Jew only in the ethnic sense (not the religious). Judaism lacks the concepts of the Incarnation, the Substitutionary Atonement, etc."

You're a complete idiot to suggest that Jesus was not a fanatical follower of the Jewish Law.

And the rest of the sentence is completely irrelevant since all of that was invented by a Roman double agent named Paul (nee Saul) - who ended up getting stoned by Jesus' followers and subsequently "checked in" to Roman protective custody, and was escorted out of town by Roman soldiers when forty of Jesus' followers swore to stop eating, drinking or sleeping until they'd killed him.

Nitwit.


Comments closed March 20, 2008.

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