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Religious Accommodation

06 Mar 2008 01:11 pm

There are several gyms available for use by Harvard students. It seems that one of them is now a bit special:

Six times a week, Harvard kicks all the guys out of the Quadrangle Recreational Athletic Center at the request of the Harvard Islamic Society. This is to accommodate those female Muslim students whose faith won’t let them work out in front of men.

I'd need to think a bit more about it before I was sure whether or not this was a reasonable accommodation to make to the needs of Muslim students, but I'm positive I'd think a bit more about it before I went and wrote something like Andrew's post titled "Sharia at Harvard":

They would never do that kind of thing for any other religion. If a religion refuses to allow men and women to work out together in public, then its adherents need to work out at home. What's next? Removing all gay men from the locker-room? This is the West, guys. Get over yourselves.

Suppose I were to inform Andrew that Harvard, like all American institutions of higher education of which I'm aware, shuts down and creates a holiday in late December that just so happens to coincide with an important familial and religious observance for Christians whereas no such allowance is made for Passover visits. Christianism? Worse, it happens in public high schools and elementary schools all across the country, the very same country in which no mail can be delivered on Sunday! Meanwhile, when I was a student at Harvard there was a ban on having anything on fire in a dorm room and also a movement to create an exemption so that Jewish students could light Hanukkah candles. I don't recall whether or not the exemption was granted, but if it was that certainly wouldn't constitute the dawning of a new era of Jewish theocratic rule at the university. I know for a fact that they allow students to reschedule exams for religious reasons, like a Jewish or Muslim obligation to avoid taking an exam on a Saturday (no exams are scheduled on Sundays).

There's a range of things one can think about these policies. The preferential treatment granted by public institutions to Christmas rankles, but given the vast number of Christmas-celebrators in the country it's also inevitable and practical. The "no mail on Sundays" thing is poor public policy and obviously has religious origins of a sort, but it's hardly some intolerable burden on minorities, it's just bad public policy. Letting people reschedule exams for religious reasons, but not just because they happen to feel like taking them in some other order, seems like an eminently fair and practical way of dealing with the situation. New York City public schools make the Jewish High Holy Days a day off, due to the city's large Jewish population, most other jurisdictions don't do that but will look the other way if Jewish kids don't show up -- reasonable responses to the objective situation in both cases.

Finding a way to accommodate observant Muslims' concerns about co-ed workouts, in short, is hardly some per se outrageous violation of a strict U.S. tradition of secularism. Is the particular way they've done this unduly burdensome? I think to say whether or not it is you'd need to look at the situation and the available alternatives in some detail.

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Comments (327)

The difference, Matt, is that non-Christians (hey, even atheists like me!) get Christmas off too. Nobody's disadvantaged. Can you say that about shutting women out of the rec center?

You're confusing US government policy with Harvard policy. Harvard shuts down for Christmas because it is a federal holiday, like Memorial Day or Thanksgiving. It does not, for example, have an Easter break, as Christian schools generally do.

The point Andrew is (rather crudely) trying to make is that Harvard policy seems to be more sensitive towards Muslim concerns than they would be to Christian or Jewish ones. After all, this is the school where Leverett and Cabot House banned Christmas trees from the dining hall.

think a bit more about it

before posting is, as a general matter, sound advice from which Andrew Sullivan would benefit.

Oh Matt, you didn't know? Sullivan's views on Arabs, Muslims, and the Middle East are Churchillian.

Matt, you fail at analogies. It's the exclusion of others from public facilities that's important here.

As for no mail on Sunday, do you really want to pay for an extra day of mail? Hire more mail carriers?

Also, I can't cook in kosher-designated kitchens on campus!

In fairness, there's something annoying about this that doesn't annoy me regarding the other things you've mentioned... maybe because if you're going to have a women-only gym, just make a women-only gym. Or, more likely, the fact that I simply find that sort of religious restriction that the women live under, and ask that other people work around, to be silly... but that's the thing-- I'm willing to admit that this accomodation bothers me because I don't like the religious practice itself, not because I'm all concerned about "losing our freedoms."

Not all of us are under the illusion that the fancies of the epileptic and bloodthirsty polygamist pederast, who inspired a reign of terror from Java to Granada, have as much truth or validity as the Sermon on the Mount.

Also, Christmas is no longer an exclusively Christian holiday. You have the Christian Christmas, with nativity scenes, angels, Silent Night, and O Little Town of Bethlehem. You also have the secular Christmas, with the Christmas tree, Santa, Frosty the Snowman, candy canes and colored lights. The latter is just as much a secular holiday as the 4th of July. And I say that as an atheist.

Sullivan was right. The practice is ridiculous. The difference with time off school is that EVERYONE gets the time off school. If I was a male student getting kicked out of the gym because of some freak's belief in the supernatural, I would be super pissed.

The most important part of Matt's post is the sentence at the beginning saying that there are several gyms on campus, and that only one has the single sex policy at a limited time of the day. That to me mitigates most of this, as it means that nobody is really being deprived by this accomodation.

And while it is true that everybody gets X-mas off (Woo-hoo if you're not a Christian), the failure to provide the same benefit for Passover (or Ramadan) means one group is being disadvantaged in the comparison.

The underlying article Andrew links to is also part of an embarassing anti-Arab rant, so I think it loses some credibility by association.

I'm surprised you totally missed the distinction here, Matt.

"Six times a week, Harvard kicks all the guys out of the Quadrangle Recreational Athletic Center..."

Replace the word "guys" with "Jews" or "Blacks" (or take your pick - Native Americans maybe). Would you still feel ok with this?

It's really bald-face discrimination - it's right up there with banning blacks and women from country clubs. Maybe it's their right to do so as a private institution, but decent people should really be disgusted.

My problem with this would not be the religious accomadation, it's fair for schools to do that as they see fit. But the subtext of Andrews point, I think, is that this is an accomodation that flies in the face of generally accepted Western norms i.e. women and men can be at the gym together. It is rooted in what, I believe, is a deeply sexist islamic belief, that women cannot expose themselves to men because their inherent sexuality will tempt men in bad ways. That is my problem with it.

But on the other hand say a group of women who had been raped or sexually abused came to the school and stated that they were uncomfortable working out in the gym with men there and requested some women-only gym time. How would we (or Andrew) feel about that?

As for no mail on Sunday, do you really want to pay for an extra day of mail? Hire more mail carriers?

I, for one, very much do want to pay for an extra day of mail, and if it creates some more jobs I don't count that as a bad thing.

That said, I do think there is a difference between an accomodation that is religious in origin but falls pretty much equally upon everyone (christmas, stuff being closed on sunday), and a religious accomodation that is actively discriminatory (throwing one gender out of the building).

"The difference, Matt, is that non-Christians (hey, even atheists like me!) get Christmas off too. Nobody's disadvantaged..."

Exactly. The problem with the Harvard decision, and other such concessions to "Muslim sensibilities", is that they are using their religious beliefs to EXCLUDE others (in this case, men), to cater to Muslim-separateness. Witness the recent attempt by Muslim cabbies in Minneapolis to not give rides to anyone carrying alcohol, appearing to be drunk, or traveling with animals. There's a university in England (not sure which one offhand) that recently decided to have one of its cafeterias stop serving any food that did not meet Muslim dietary restrictions. As always, the reasons given were "we must be tolerant and supportive of the religious beliefs of others..." and other PC blather. The implicit message was that non-Muslims who wanted to eat non-Koran-approved food weren't welcome. That cafeteria has now become de-facto Muslim-only. Students belonging to other religious groups received no such accomodation--not the Orthodox Jews, not the Hindi, not the Buddhists, no one. Why? Because the students belonging to those faiths made no such arrogant, exclusionary demands.

So now Harvard, in the name of tolerance, is tolerating the intolerant. What's next? Muslim-only dorms?

One should also note that the "Quadrangle" is one of the most distant outposts of Harvard. Not only are there many athletic workout facilities at Harvard, but the only one being set aside for women-only workout hours is the most isolated, distant one. (I'm assuming that "Quadrangle" refers to "the Quad", here)

Sullivan's post is not merely offensive in its casual claims of Sharia, it is also factually incorrect. for example, Harvard makes the gym available for 6 HOURS per week, not six TIMES per week. I have emailed Sullivan to point out how offensive and inaccurate his piece is, but he has not bothered to correct it or respond. Given his slur on Harvard, if he does not take steps to remedy the situation, with an apology on his blog, I intend to ask the Office of the General Counsel at Harvard to intervene and seek redress. Please read the following story, which accurately reviews the situation:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,334992,00.html

Sullivan's posting is shockingly unprofessional, clearly exploits anti-Muslim sentiment, and misrepresents the actions and motivations of the Harvard community.

I think if you view religous belief through a Hitchensian lense, as a disability, than this move by Harvard is just a reasonable accomodation of one's disability as required by the Americans with Disabilities Act. It's no different than allowing some students to have seperate note-takers or take untimed exams. Frankly, I'm a little surprised Harvard doesn't already have a seperate women-only gym.

And just out of curiousity, if you're transgendered, can you still use the gym with the rest of the Muslim women? Does it make a difference if you're MTF to FTM? Or where you are in the conversion process?

I'm just sayin'...

Andrew's overdoing it as usual, but I still think this is terrible policy. However it's spun, the concrete steps here are to restrict the actions of one group of students in order to prevent offending another. That's a deeply illiberal thing to do, and in a multicultural society, not at all practical in the long run. And yes--more dominant social and religious groups do the same thing all the time, but that doesn't make it right.

On a less abstract level, there are a couple of Muslim women at my gym who work out wearing hijab, but don't--at least to my uninformed eye--otherwise restrict themselves. How accepted would this be vs. gender segregation for most Muslims?

The preferential treatment granted by public institutions to Christmas rankles,

It rankles? Are you that bitter toward Christians and European traditions in general? It's not as if people are forced to go to mass or anything. To be honest, I've never really understood the bitterness a lot of American Jews hold toward Christmas - a)it honors the birth of a very famous Jew, b) most of what we consider American Christmas traditions were in fact created by American Jews in the first place. It's the most American of holidays, and an important part of being American, Christian or not. It's interesting that non-Jewish, non-Christians don't seem to feel the same bitterness. The Japanese have even adopted the holiday as their own.

Hector and Craigory are right -- this can all be determined by a simple, objective analysis of whose religions are sillier, upon which we will all naturally agree.

Well, I think it all depends on how many female Muslim students want it and how many hours a week we're talking about.

If it's five students and five hours a week, it's ridiculous. But if it's eighty students and five hours for one of Harvard's many gyms, maybe less so.

These sort of questions should be approached as practical rather than absolute ideological issues, which would make sense both from a utilitarian view and from protecting everyone from needless "emotional suffering". After all, if verdict goes against the Muslim girls, you're really just telling them to find more Muslim girls who care about what they're asking for.

Andrew's overdoing it as usual, but I still think this is terrible policy. However it's spun, the concrete steps here are to restrict the actions of one group of students in order to prevent offending another. That's a deeply illiberal thing to do, and in a multicultural society, not at all practical in the long run. And yes--more dominant social and religious groups do the same thing all the time, but that doesn't make it right.

On a less abstract level, there are a couple of Muslim women at my gym who work out wearing hijab, but don't--at least to my uninformed eye--otherwise restrict themselves. How accepted would this be vs. gender segregation for most Muslims?

I think Matt is comparing apples with oranges. This is not about religious accommodation per se, e.g. making exceptions to certain rules so that people are able to observe the commandments of their religion.

This is about enabling religious groups to shield themselves from the values and liberties characteristic for western societies (for example, gender equality) because these values and liberties hurt their religious sensibilities, and while doing so, restricting the rights of non-believers.

Nobody should force female Muslims to go to op-ed gyms if they think Islam forbids this. But they can not expect that a public institution (which Harvard is in a wider sense of the word) throws men out of a public facility to cater to their belief.

Six hours? Six minutes would be six minutes too many.

I have no use for Andrew Sullivan, and I would have no use for Christians, or adherents of any other delusion, if they were to demand this kind of exclusionary special treatment in public or quasi-public accommodations. (For example, I would object vehemently if such a policy were enacted due to the demands of, say, ultra-Orthodox Jews.)

but I still think this is terrible policy. However it's spun, the concrete steps here are to restrict the actions of one group of students in order to prevent offending another. That's a deeply illiberal thing to do, and in a multicultural society, not at all practical in the long run. And yes--more dominant social and religious groups do the same thing all the time, but that doesn't make it right.

Ding ding ding ding ding!

Well put

"I, for one, very much do want to pay for an extra day of mail, and if it creates some more jobs I don't count that as a bad thing."

I do if it makes mail more expensive.

The "no mail on Sundays" thing is poor public policy ...

Really? Even assuming arguendo everyone gave up religion tomorrow, wouldn't it still be good public policy to have one day off a week?

The particularly confusing thing about Sullivan's post is the implication that "they" would not do this thing for any other religion, as if Muslims are widely given preferences and favors in American society. Is there really a pro-Muslim bias in the US? Isn't this taking the typical reactionary argument "I have nothing against members of group X, I just oppose special rights for group X" a tad past the plausible (even for Sullivan) when it comes to Muslims in America...

Vanya,

To argue that Jesus was a Jew is to overemphasize His humanity at the expense of His divinity. He was God, first and foremost, and chose to become a man only secondarily. Moreover he was a Jew only in the ethnic sense (not the religious). Judaism lacks the concepts of the Incarnation, the Substitutionary Atonement, etc.

Boo-hoo, njt. Its a ridiculous practice whether its six hours or six days. While all religions are ridiculous, the fact that we tolerate Islam's intolerence is appalling. It is an insane religion, relatively speaking. And that's saying something.

Nobody should force female Muslims to go to op-ed gyms

Is that where Maureen Dowd, David Brooks and Richard Cohen work out? NOBODY should be forced to go to that gym!

Bear in mind that this is not only for Muslim women. Any woman who wants to work out in a single-sex environment can take advantage of this -- and I'll bet that turns out to be the case. Sure, some people, male and female, regard a gym as a meat market. But women with body image issues, or those who don't want to be ogled, might feel more comfortable without men around. We're only talking one hour per day, in only one gym. Don't have a cow, man.

When Sullivan claims that Curves, the gym for women, is offensive for exluding men not just 6 hours per week, but all the time, and not just in an isolated corner of Cambridge, but right in Central and Porter Squares, I will be a little bit more sympathetic to his POV.

To a degree, colleges do feel that it's their mission to promote a certain environment that will not, in the end, accommodate some people's religious beliefs. I believe that some Jewish students at Yale were point blank told that the university would not enforce the chastity of their students and would not allow them to live off-campus their first year to accomodate their belief that living in the sinful on-campus dorms offended their religious sensibilities.

At best, the 6-hours-per-week issue raises a slippery slope problem. But universities manage to maintain kosher-only kitchens and such while at the same time telling students that if they want a school dedicated to complete immersion of their religious practices to look someplace else.

Matt - are you high? For Harvard, of all places, to coddle this kind of irrational hate (and, in the end, the Moslem theological fear of womens' bodies is all about hate) is immoral and indefensible. Maybe you are too young to remember, but in the Jim Crow south, drinking fountains and swimming pools were segregated de jure. How does this differ?

Or is it that you honestly believe primitive Moslems deserve special treatment, and are entitled to an imposed accomodation of their anti-social conduct?

This kind of "sensitivity" does nothing but reinforce the power of the most regressive and reactionary forces in the Moslem community, and retards their social integration. The fact is, A woman who wants to live in accordance with 7th Century superstition is free to move to Saudi, or Qatar, or Egypt, or Gaza. As a point of principal, the American students at Harvard should not be obligated to change their lives because a tiny group of mental cases insists on indulging their pathologies.

There are some posters who argue that men are being deprived of amenity in being forbidden to exercise during the 6 hours that are reserved for Muslim women at one, relatively isolated Harvard gym.

First, this omits the facts that the main, centrally located Harvard gym, the MAC, is available during those hours, and is substantially larger and with more facilities. There is no significant loss of male amenity here, and to pretend otherwise is simply inaccurate.

Second, when considering the arguments of those claiming that men are unfairly treated by this policy, it might be remembered that religious groups have been shown due tolerance in such matters as food and clothing on university campuses, because the university should be a place of tolerance and diversity, not narrowly western and effectively atheistic. On the arguments these people have advanced, we should remove kosher foods for dininghalls, ban prayergroups of any tradition, and effectively forbid the expression of an religious identity on campus. After all, those who eat religiously prescribed foods, or use a space for a religious meeting are effectively depriving the non-religious of dininghall space, and campus space as a whole. It is hard to see that such an argument is tolerant or favours diversity. Rather it privileges a small, non-religious group at the expense of all others.

In sum, you cannot have a diverse, tolerant society without recognizing that diverse groups need a particular space for the expression of their identity. To deny them that space is implicitly condoning repression, and rejecting the need for diversity.

By the way, the "quadrangle", I am presuming, is the former Radcliffe campus. (It's where I lived back in the 70s when I was in college.) A lot of students live there, and it's quite a distance from the other recreational facilities, so there is a genuine inconvenience here. (Not to mention the irony of having this policy at what used to be Radcliffe!)

Look, a group of Harvard Klansmen are offended by having to work out with blacks. I assume Matthew thinks it is OK for Harvard, to accomodate the wishes of its Klansmen community, to exclude blacks from one gym for a few hours a week, right?

Come on, Matthew, it's not that difficult to figure out. The problem isn't making an accomodation for a religious community, it's making an accomodation to promote intolerance.


The difference, Matt, is that non-Christians (hey, even atheists like me!) get Christmas off too. Nobody's disadvantaged.

An even remotely observant Jew has to use a vacation day during Yom Kippur, unless they're lucky enough to work for a place that needs to be open on Christmas and can find a Gentile cow-orker to trade days with. There's no such restriction for a Gentile, even though a Jew going to work on Yom Kippur has committed a far greater violation of his or her religious beliefs than a Christian working on Christmas would have (in Israel, even television and radio broadcasts are suspended during Yom Kippur -- by law). So, for the expenditure of one vacation day, a Jew gets Yom Kippur and Christmas off, while a Christian gets Christmas and any one day of their choosing off. The latter combination has the advantage of greater flexibility. Like Matt says, this state of affairs may be inevitable, but it isn't equality.

Matt - are you high? For Harvard, of all places, to coddle this kind of irrational hate (and, in the end, the Moslem theological fear of womens' bodies is all about hate) is immoral and indefensible. Maybe you are too young to remember, but in the Jim Crow south, drinking fountains and swimming pools were segregated de jure. How does this differ?

Or is it that you honestly believe primitive Moslems deserve special treatment, and are entitled to an imposed accomodation of their anti-social conduct?

This kind of "sensitivity" does nothing but reinforce the power of the most regressive and reactionary forces in the Moslem community, and retards their social integration. The fact is, A woman who wants to live in accordance with 7th Century superstition is free to move to Saudi, or Qatar, or Egypt, or Gaza. As a point of principal, the American students at Harvard should not be obligated to change their lives because a tiny group of mental cases insists on indulging their pathologies.

RKU, I think your position makes a lot more sense that hyperventilating about 'Dhimmi' or whatever, but I do think there are larger issues at play here. Anything that rests, in essence, on a right not to be offended strikes me as really problematic. It isn't just a matter of consumer choice. For the policy to be effective, there would have to be enforcement, and I can't imagine defending sanctions against any male student who violated purely religious mores.

And again, yes, yes, you can think of plenty of examples of Christians receiving similar (or more extensive) priviledges. But that's the fun of attacking the policy from the left--I really do condemn that just as much.

Even though playing the Nazi card is in pretty bad taste most of the time, I think BFR made the most clear point about why this seems so wrong: just imagine if they did this for those who don't want to have to exercise around Jews and Blacks.

The continued accommodation of particular traditions that have long been accommodated is quite different from a new accommodation. If we actually had mail delivery on Sundays and conservative Christian groups denounced it and sought to end it, would you need more time to reach an opinion on whether that was a reasonable accommodation?

Is there any indication that Harvard does not let other groups sign up for exclusive use of gym facilities in other circumstances?

For example, I play in a basketball league organized by my employer, and we have reserved certain basketball courts for our use at certain times. Now technically, that means the owner of those courts is excluding other people whenever we play. But that is simply a side-effect of us reserving it for our exclusive use.

Now, maybe you could argue that Harvard should not allow certain groups to do stuff like that, maybe based on an assessment of whether they have proper motives for the exclusion. So, for example, I could see distinguishing between our basketball league and a white supremacist basketball league (although in my ideal world, we would let them have their league, but make it observable and subject to widespread ridicule). And I guess this is what Andrew et al are arguing: these people have improper motives, so they should not be allowed to reserve gyms for their exclusive use.

But frankly, even though I am within the excluded class, I don't find myself caring. So, I am not sure I see the issue.

An even remotely observant Jew has to use a vacation day during Yom Kippur, unless they're lucky enough to work for a place that needs to be open on Christmas and can find a Gentile cow-orker to trade days with.
Wake me up when Yom Kippur becomes a quasi-secular holiday like Christmas. (Hell, even I celebrate it, and I despise all religions.)

One should also note that the "Quadrangle" is one of the most distant outposts of Harvard. Not only are there many athletic workout facilities at Harvard, but the only one being set aside for women-only workout hours is the most isolated, distant one.

It's not at all distant to the 25% of Harvard undergrads who live... in the Quad. Where are they supposed to go? Half of them are male, you know.

Fascinating to watch the comments and see exactly how ignorant, crude and unpleasant your average commentator is on this issue. Six hours a week in an isolated gym becomes the enforcement of Sharia law? Well, that's really the thin end of the Taleban wedge, isn't it? What next, a demand for.... oh, classes in Arabic? Discussions of the Koran? You know, we have both those things at Harvard, and have done for decades. No sign of Sharia here, kids. Honestly, you people are such knee-jerk bigots, yet you read a liberal blog, and I bet you claim to be tolerant. Grow up!

Nobody should force female Muslims to go to op-ed gyms

Is that where Maureen Dowd, David Brooks and Richard Cohen work out? NOBODY should be forced to go to that gym!

Ooops, of cause, I meant "co-ed gyms"

Geoff: imagine if there were a women-only gym on campus, and that there had always been one. Would we really be so worked up about it?

The reason the policy leaves a bad taste in our mouths is the following: the policy is a new one and the policy was brought in at the request of Muslim students to accommodate their religious beliefs on the matter.

Women-only gyms, single-sex dorms, and kosher-only kitchens (which, in my college, were in dorm suites populated entirely by kosher-following Jews) have been part of the university landscape for a long time. It's because we have a new policy advocated by a specific religion that we are bothered by this.

Harvard shuts down for Christmas because it is a federal holiday

Dude, the whole two-week period during which the university closes is not a federal holiday. That's a choice Harvard makes, and it's one which favors Christians.

Harvard policy seems to be more sensitive towards Muslim concerns than they would be to Christian or Jewish ones. After all, this is the school where Leverett and Cabot House banned Christmas trees from the dining hall.

If it's just those two houses, doesn't sound like an administration-imposed ban. I'd be curious to know what the mechanism was, and whether other religions' displays were also banned. (And if so, what your beef exactly?) But regardless, even if it was a ban from above, I don't see how the two instances are comparable.

In the one case the university's guiding principle seems to be: All students should be able to use common facilities to pursue physical fitness if they wish, and reasonable accomodations in scheduling should be made to let them do so without violating their religious or cultural prohibitions.

In the other case, the principle you seem to advocate is: Religious majorities should be able to publicly display religious icons of their particular faith to the exclusion of others.

Only one of these principles seems compatible with the mission of a secular university, it seems to me.

Oh, and:

non-Christians (hey, even atheists like me!) get Christmas off too. Nobody's disadvantaged.

Nobody's disadvantaged? How about Jewish students who would prefer to have a Passover break but don't get one, and who are instead forced to vacate the dorms and libraries during a period when (if they can't go to class) some of them would at least prefer to be studying?

Nobody's disadvantaged. Can you say that about shutting women [sic; men]out of the rec center?

Yes you can. Men can use any of the several other gyms on campus, or go at a different time. It's not far from your logic: Jews "get" Christmas off even though they'd prefer Passover; men "get" to use the MAC even though they'd prefer to use the QRAC.

"On the arguments these people have advanced, we should remove kosher foods for dininghalls, ban prayergroups of any tradition, and effectively forbid the expression of an religious identity on campus. After all, those who eat religiously prescribed foods, or use a space for a religious meeting are effectively depriving the non-religious of dininghall space, and campus space as a whole..."

Nice strawman. No, that's not it at all. I don't object to kosher food in the dining halls. I WOULD object to ultra-Orthodox Jews demanding the removal of NON-kosher food from the dining halls, because it offends their religious sensibilities. This is not about the inclusion of, or accomodation for, religious practices. It's about ONE religion's practicioners using their faith as a means of EXCLUDING non-believers. Can't you see the difference? Apparently, Harvard can't.

Claudius, the argument you call a straw man is cogent, and your laboured attempt to denounce it is simply wretchedly illogical. The point is that no-one loses significant amenity by allowing Muslim women 6 hours a week in an isolated gym. Likewise, no-one loses amenity by having kosher food in the dininghall. Your policy of kneejerk bigotry would demand we do both, since religious needs must, according to Claudius, never be met. That's simply dispicable, and your attempt to sneer your way out of it is morally indefensible.

At my college, I was transfered out of my Wednesday chemistry lab to accommodate a Jewish student who didn't want to go to the Friday afternoon (4-6) Chemistry lab (ends after sundown). And I had gotten up at 6AM to get a good spot in line on registration day specifically to avoid the Friday afternoon lab, which was understandably unpopular. But I still ended up in it because I wasn't Jewish. Who says the Muslims are the only ones being accommodated? And why wasn't Andrew complaining about it back then?

Claudius, any accommodation of any religious belief is essentially zero-sum. The mere existence of a kitchen on campus for cooking kosher food means that there's one-less kitchen around for cooking non-kosher food. Taking a day off for one religion means that an extra day needs to be added to the school calendar for each other holiday of another religion you want to observe.

It is just that in this case, the zero-sum nature of the matter is rather stark: there is a certain time of the day at a certain gym where the accommodation of one group's preferences (women who don't want to exercise in front of men) causes men to lose out.

The only way to obscure (not eliminate, obscure) this zero-sum situation is to simply build another gym and designate it women-only.

It's not at all distant to the 25% of Harvard undergrads who live... in the Quad. Where are they supposed to go? Half of them are male, you know.

Presumably they can go to the gym the other 100+ hours in the week.

An even remotely observant Jew has to use a vacation day during Yom Kippur

An even remotely observant American Catholic usually has to use a vacation day for Epiphany (a bank holiday in many Catholic countries) Easter Monday (a holiday in most Catholic countries), Good Friday (a holiday in most Catholic countries), Corpus Christi (a holiday in some Catholic countries). All of these are according to Catholic religious tradition more meaningful holidays than Christmas.

Claudius, no-one is losing the right to exercise because of these women. The main Harvard gym (and several others) are still available. I realize this seems terribly complex to you, but you get it into your head that no-one is being deprived of the right to exercise here. Your arguments are based on a total failure to grasp the reality of the situation.

Men can use any of the several other gyms on campus, or go at a different time. It's not far from your logic: Jews "get" Christmas off even though they'd prefer Passover; men "get" to use the MAC even though they'd prefer to use the QRAC.

I get it: Separate, but equal.

The policy is defensible, but the motivation for the policy still rankles.

One might notice that there is now a large nationwide chain of gyms that exclusively cater to women. There seems to be quite a bit of secular demand for facilities where women can work out without being leered at or hit on by men. I don't see anything wrong with a campus maintaining a certain number of gym hours for single-sex activities, if many students feel more comfortable in that environment. It's not inherently any worse than maintaining sex-segregated bathrooms.

But, of course, Harvard is under no obligation whatsoever to accomodate the bigoted attitudes of any religious group, especially not in ways that inconvenience other students. If the Muslim student complaints were the only rationale for the policy, then the administration should not have caved in.

Hey remember back before Rosa Parks when blacks had to sit in the back of the bus? We can just redefine our terms. Nobody was being banned from the front of the bus. We were just "accomodating" those people who didn't want to sit with blacks!

And why wouldn't that accomodation be reasonable? Blacks weren't excluded from the bus. They just had to sit in a different section!

Reasonable accomodations, people. That the people we are accomodating are bigots doesn't matter.

So what? The main gym on my campus closes down daily for a women-only hour, but that's more of a
'women feel intimidated around men at the gym' thing than any sort of religious accommodation.

"We're only talking one hour per day, in only one gym. Don't have a cow, man."

Separating women to this degree in Islam isn't universal. Islam in east Asia didn't start to get this hung up until the al-Sauds started pouring alms into the coffers of the Wahabists.

Islamic zealots would like nothing more than to extract from a western education only that that doesn't challenge their dogma.

Harvard likes to think it has a mission to shape the minds of the next elite. So shape them, don't cave to their comfort zone. If Harvard supports the theory that Islam hasn't had the opportunity for its Reformation yet, and that the opportunity would be a good thing, then the Administration shouldn't start developing a sub-culture that insulates certain students from the wider world.

A bit long winded for six hours a week? Sure. Is that six hours the camel's nose under the tent flap? We'll see.

Any religion that practices intolerance should be wiped off the face of the earth. By force if neccesary.

helteranius- You are a silly person.

Tyro, you make a good point, which is kind of the same as the one by henry evans. The newness is one reason it's particularly annoying. We've already had to accept a lot of age-old accommodations to superstitions. Over the last few decades, things have been moving pretty steadily away from that, so this seems like a step backwards - toward things like teaching creationism and prayer in public schools.

Craigory, I assume you are demanding your own eradication, judging by your crude and offensively intolerant remarks? Or was wit out of stock when you signed up for a mind?

Here's the problem Matt has forgotten about: now that the precedent has been set that this is a "reasonable" accomadation for Islam, what does Harvard say if a Christian sect (or heck, multiple sects) come in with their requests for separate times? What if Hindu groups come in with similar requests? This is a large can of worms, and it's best avoided completely

When I was in jr. high ('85-'87), we learned about "Moslems." Does anyone know when it became "Muslims"? Just curious...

That's also a good point, Geoff: we're so used to universities having more freedoms and fewer restrictions that when the clock looks like it's turning backwards, it rankles. We expect single-sex facilities on campus to remain the same or decline, not to expand. Chalk it up to Americans' believe in eternal progress.

jaswant,
Nope, you missed the point. I don't have to be tolerant of a religion that practices intolerance. Cute try, though. If what I said offended you, than you are obviously an idiot. And probably religious as well. Good luck with that.

Incidentally, further to Matt's point about Harvard: it's not like there isn't a GIANT CHRISTIAN CHURCH right in the CENTER OF CAMPUS.

(Which I think is a wonderful church, and Rev. Gomes is great, but it just further goes to support Matt's point.)

Sean, it's just another way of transcribing the same word. Muslim is more phonetically accurate, but Moslem was widely used until recently.

They're not excluding non-believers, just men.

Do you know that men are also excluded from HALF of the locker rooms in the gyms too! And not just for six hours a week but for 24 HOURS a DAY, 7 DAYS a WEEK, 52 WEEKS a YEAR!

Apparently some women do not like to dress and shower in front of men so the university has had to create SEPERATE lockerrooms for women. OUTRAGE!

Also, it would suck if you lived in river houses and had to walk up to the QRAC to work out. But I guess faith is faith.

Wow, I can't believe it took until Tyro posted fairly late in the thread to note that secular women-only gyms are ubiquitous across the country.

People are just upset that it's *Muslims* who asked for this. If the request came from women with body image or secular modesty concerns, we'd never hear about this.

maraschion and zilifant--

Six hours in one gym might not seem like a big deal, but how far are you prepared to let religiously-based exclusionary policies go?

this is an accomodation that flies in the face of generally accepted Western norms i.e. women and men can be at the gym together

Norms which are, in fact, of quite recent origin, historically. So some cultures haven't caught up to your norms yet. BFD. Cut them some slack.

just imagine if they did this for those who don't want to have to exercise around Jews and Blacks.

Just imagine if they banned Martians! Or redheads! The policy does *not* do those things, so what's the point of imagining what would happen if it did? Race and gender are different kinds of problems.

it's making an accomodation to promote intolerance.

No, it's making an accomodation to assuage discomfort. Like separate male and female public bathrooms. Does Andrew, or do those of you siding with him, think men should be able to just waltz into any public toilet they choose? No? But you're being exclusionary! Promoting intolerance! You should be forced to pee only at home!

Point: It's not sharia that's at work here. It's prudishness. We all have it to some degree. Our society makes accomodations to it. This is one. BFD.

vanya writes: "An even remotely observant American Catholic usually has to use a vacation day for Epiphany (a bank holiday in many Catholic countries) Easter Monday (a holiday in most Catholic countries), Good Friday (a holiday in most Catholic countries), Corpus Christi (a holiday in some Catholic countries). All of these are according to Catholic religious tradition more meaningful holidays than Christmas."

I would be willing to bet that 90% of American Catholics never even consider taking those days off, so "even remotely observant" is one hell of a stretch.

I think people need to calm down. So Harvard decided to close one gym out of MANY for two hours, three times a week to men at the request of a group of women for religious accommodation. Regardless of one's feelings about the particular religion or of religious accommodation in general, isn't it worth saying OK because these women are your friends/classmates/members of your community? People need to grow up. It's six hours a week. There are (or were) gyms in all of the Houses. There are gyms all around campus. There are 14 other hours of gym time in that day. These women aren't trying to oppress anyone, they just want to work out.

What DTM said.

Plus the quote:
"Harvard kicks all the guys out of the Quadrangle Recreational Athletic Center at the request of the Harvard Islamic Society. "

How about
"The Harvard Islamic Society reserves the Quadrangle Recreational Athletic Center for six hours per week."

Hmmm not much of a headline there.

"The Harvard Pingpong Society reserves the Quadrangle Recreational Athletic Center for six hours per week."

Not much there either.

Presumably these are the same six hours each week. If you find yourself being kicked out week after week, maybe you should figure out that the gym is reserved at that time.

The policy is defensible, but the motivation for the policy still rankles.

I think that's probably a fair point. I have a really hard time getting over the notion that commons areas can be made off-limits to a portion of the student body.

Let's say two months from now another group comes back and says that they are uncomfortable using the library while men are present, so the university should set a policy to ban men for 1 hour per day (or vice versa).

I can't imagine that this would ever fly because it would directly impede studies but from a policy/fairness standpoint, I fail to see the distinction between the two.

thank you, philippa

Ah Craigory, not only nasty, but crudely ignorant as well. I am amazed your mom wants to type your tedious little messages for you.

By the way, I am quite serious about preferring the allow-but-ridicule approach to these issues. In that sense, I have no problem agreeing that this request violated societal norms I endorse, but I don't particular want or need the Harvard administration to be enforcing those norms. And that is because I strongly suspect more informal norm-reinforcing mechanism within the Harvard community would end up being a lot more effective.

BFR, is there much point in trying such an unlikely hypothetical? Why not reverse it? What is a group of men demanded that women must be present while they studied? It's just as likely - in other words, not at all.

jaswant,
Feel free to point out exactly what I said which was ignorant. My son would love to he...er, I mean I'd love to hear it. Idiot.

Now technically, that means the owner of those courts is excluding other people whenever we play. But that is simply a side-effect of us reserving it for our exclusive use.

Except that in this case the staff also has to be all-women; any male staff members are affected, which is not comparable to any other reservation.

I get it: Separate, but equal.

Hey, that's how our society frequently handles questions of gender and public facilities. You're OK with single-sex bathrooms, aren't you? Single-sex locker rooms? Single-sex youth sports? This is the same principle.

People are just upset that it's *Muslims* who asked for this. If the request came from women with body image or secular modesty concerns, we'd never hear about this.

Precisely. I bet you don't hear many of those outraged Harvard white boys complaining that they can't go to Curves up the road at Porter Square.

Can't believe I'm defending Harvard. I hated that place.

BTM, you don't endorse respecting diversity and tolerance? Seems a slightly alarming set of norms that you have there.

You're right. It does bother me that Muslims are asking for this. If it was just a few shy, pudgy chicks, I would be fine with it. We SHOULD have a problem with any type of organization which teaches such arcane, discriminatory practices. That goes for almost all religions.

Ryan, I hear you on hating Harvard, which is a vile place in many ways. However, I think we should defend it when it, very rarely, does the right thing. Not the institution, but the principle, so to speak. That said, I can't wait to leave.

BFR, is there much point in trying such an unlikely hypothetical?

I don't know what the justification would be for denying the library application when you just approved the gym application. Or for that matter banning people who eat meat from the cafeteria so as to not offend the vegans who despise meat consumption.

I went to a really small college with one gym and one cafeteria and one library. Perhaps this is why I'm more rankled about this than maybe I should be, but it just doesn't seem like a policy that a university community should be embracing.

BFR, I take your point about the one gym/library situation at your alma mater, but there is a difference between exercising in somewhat revealing clothing, and reading in the library. That's where your hypothetical seems to me to fail, and why I can't see any serious application being made for women only reading hours.

MLJ says I would be willing to bet that 90% of American Catholics never even consider taking those days off, so "even remotely observant" is one hell of a stretch.

Sure, that's kind of the point. 90% of American Catholics are so fully Americanized that they no longer observe major religious holy days and now think Christmas is THE significant Christian holiday. If American Catholics can radically change their religion to accommodate the mainstream American lifestyle than so can everyone else.