Rocco Speaks

As per the post below, I think Rocco would have been open to a chef just making a real pizza:

Now, no offense directed at the lovely people of Chicago, but their pizza leaves a lot to be desired. It’s neither thin crust nor thick crust (what we call Sicilian here in NYC), it’s usually comprised of some random combo of ingredients, and it’s heavy as lead. The beautiful, defining characteristic of pizza is that it’s light, crispy, and a foil for wonderful toppings like cheese, sausage, basil, and anchovies. Deep-dish pizza leaves no room on the palate for much else but crust.

It sort of pains me to admit it, but I actually think the best pizza may be in New Haven rather than New York,

Comments

Please continue in this vein; I want to see how long you can keep up insufferable New Yorker posts.

Posted by Christmas | March 13, 2008 10:45 AM

I'm a pizza snob. Boston had some OK places, but now that I live in Oregon, I mostly make my own. But in reading Peter Reinhart's "American Pie," he indicates that the best pizza in the US is at Pizzaria Bianco in ... gasp ... Phoenix, Arizona.

I never get to Phoenix, aside from passing through the airport. Anyone eaten there? Is it as good as Reinhart says it is?

Posted by Jeff | March 13, 2008 10:47 AM

There are three kinds of good pizza. First, greasy huge New York-style slices, where the crust is thin but soft. Second, real Italian-style pizzas, where the crust is thin, crispy and charred around the outside, and barely existent in the middle because it's dissolved into the (very light dollops of) cheese and sauce. Third, Hungry Howie's suburban carryout/delivery pizza which, in contrast to Domino's, Papa John's, Pizza Hut, and every other suburban chain in existence, is inexplicably delicious.

Posted by Christopher M | March 13, 2008 10:48 AM

Finally, a dose of wisdom on this blog. As a native Long Islander who has lived all over the country, you're spot on with this post. New Haven pizza is the best, while New York style is a great staple food, and Chicago is just nasty. It's lasagna, with bread instead of noodles. Now I won't say which is my favorite New Haven pizza joint, since I hate waiting in lines.

Posted by NHCt | March 13, 2008 10:50 AM

Anyone eaten there? Is it as good as Reinhart says it is?

Yes, it's very good. Waited two or three hours for a table one night last year (which was fine - they have a bar next door, and my friends and I just had drinks outdoors on a beautiful evening), and I was thoroghly impressed by the place. Very good thin crust. It would certainly stand up to any of the top NYC places.

I haven't eaten in New Haven. But outside NYC, beside Bianco's, I'd say Providence has the best pizza.

Posted by Al | March 13, 2008 10:53 AM

You aren't a real "pizza snob" if you make your own pizza. That's like saying "I'm a wine connoisseur, so I crush up grapes and make my own wine in the basement."

Posted by Christopher M | March 13, 2008 10:53 AM

That place in New Haven everyone there says has the best pizza in the universe, I forget what it's called, is not very good. Any decent New York pizza place is better.

Posted by Brendan | March 13, 2008 10:54 AM

God, I love New Haven pizza. It's all about the coal ovens. And the clams.

Good chicago style pizza (made with potato in the dough and cooked with lots of olive oil in the pan) is a delight. That dude is nuts.

Eating pizza in Naples was a revelation.

The thing about pizza is that almost all of its various permutations are delightful. I would even argue that you can get edible frozen pizzas these days. But then again, I'm not that picky. I loved the chicken tikka pizza I could get in Wales.

Posted by Margaret | March 13, 2008 10:54 AM

This may be neither here nor there, but the only people in Chicago who actually eat deep dish pizza are tourists. The vast majority of pizza in Chicago is, actually, thin crust - so thin that, in fact, it is cut into squares and not pie-cut. It's really not that much different than the pizza in New York, except, you know, a trillion times better.

Posted by Bob | March 13, 2008 10:55 AM

It sort of pains me to admit it, but I actually think the best pizza may be in New Haven rather than New York

Blah. Years ago a date and I waited something like 90 minutes to get into this much-hyped New Haven pizza joint. Sally's, I think it was called. When we finally got our 'za the crust was burnt and the sauce was strangely tasteless.

Posted by Peter | March 13, 2008 10:56 AM

The best pizza is actually at Antonio's in Amherst, MA. The best pizza east of Chicago, that is.

Posted by minderbender | March 13, 2008 10:56 AM

What sort of Harvard grad praises anything about New Haven?

Posted by heedless | March 13, 2008 10:57 AM

BTW, the owner of Pizzeria Bianco is, of course, a New Yorker.

The funny thing is that they opened a Patsy's in Phoenix too. Must be all the New Yorkers moving south. Maybe John's will open a branch in Boca.

Posted by Al | March 13, 2008 10:58 AM

DiFara's in Brooklyn. The best. Bar none.

Manhattan pizza has been declining for some time, but the other boroughs, and Long Island and Jersey, rep hard.

New Haven? Dude.

Posted by Eric Martin | March 13, 2008 10:58 AM

Bob is full of it, by the way. I can't count the lunches I had at Edwardo's...

Posted by minderbender | March 13, 2008 11:00 AM

I'm agnostic in the pizza wars, given that we're a long way from Naples. Except to say this: the pizza I ate at a restaurant in Minneapolis was worse than a 99-cent frozen one.

Posted by pseudonymous in nc | March 13, 2008 11:02 AM

Why the deep-dish hate? Sure, it's not as easily devourable as your crispier, svelter pizzas, but Zach's pizza in Berkeley is consistently delicious. And the place is employee-owned! Down with corporatism! Up with pesto!

Posted by Media Glutton | March 13, 2008 11:03 AM

It's been a while since I've had New Haven pizza, but I believe it's what we in the northeast call "Greek pizza," which is particularly ubiquitous in Connecticut.

In fact, someone in the 70s wrote a Ph.D. dissertation on Greek pizza.

I'm of two minds: Greek/New Haven pizza is good when you're sitting down to order a nice, heavy, greasy pie. NY-style pizza is best when ordering a slice and eating it on-the-run.

Posted by Tyro | March 13, 2008 11:03 AM

I've got to go with the Boston area for best pizza. Armando's and Pinocchio's in Cambridge alone are better than all the pizza I've had in New York.

Bob and Margaret are both right about Chicago-style pizza. It's generally not very good because it requires a crust to be crunchy almost nearly impossible circumstances. But when it's done right, it's very good. The Unos chains are the worst thing to happen to Chicago-style pizza.

Posted by Ryno | March 13, 2008 11:03 AM

Wait, the defining characteristic of pizza is that it's "light"?

I've lived both places, and on some levels I like New York pizza more. You almost always get fresher cheese, and the tomato sauce is of pretty wide varieties (Chicago only has two: chunky and non-chunky). But it's simply a failure to appreciate what's actually happening with Chicago pizza that causes people to act like Rocco here.

Chicago pizza is a meal. From the time you order it, on a busy night, it takes 40 minutes to make, cook, and serve, 27 minutes in the oven alone (I worked at Giordano's for six months in college). You sit down, have an appetizer and a drink or two while you wait. When the pizza comes, you almost always start with knife and fork for the first slice. No, you won't walk off the street, grab a slice, and eat it on the go, but that was never the point.

The layering of sauce on top of ingredients (rather than the opposite) keeps the ingredients moist. This is why getting a good spinach pizza in New York is impossible, whereas it's among the very best variety of Chicago pizzas. Rocco's clearly never had the good stuff (charitable of you to cut off the last few sentences, Matt).

If you want Chicago pizza, here's the scoop: get sausage at the original Uno's (only the original, such a cliché, but true) or spinach at Gino's East (any location). If you prefer crispier, more buttery crust and sweeter, chunkier (and less) sauce, go with Lou Malnati's, but I find it inferior. Giordano's is boringly middlebrow.

Posted by jhupp | March 13, 2008 11:03 AM

I've got to go with the Boston area for best pizza. Armando's and Pinocchio's in Cambridge alone are better than all the pizza I've had in New York.

Bob and Margaret are both right about Chicago-style pizza. It's generally not very good because it requires a crust to be crunchy almost nearly impossible circumstances. But when it's done right, it's very good. The Unos chains are the worst thing to happen to Chicago-style pizza.

Oh, and if you need Rocco DiSpirito to back up your argument...you should probably consider abandoning it altogether.

Posted by Ryno | March 13, 2008 11:04 AM

DiFara's in Brooklyn. The best. Bar none.

Yes. Other than, you know, the health code violations.

Posted by Al | March 13, 2008 11:05 AM

minderbender: don't be silly. Antonio's isn't even the Sugar Jones of pizza.

Posted by phil | March 13, 2008 11:05 AM

Oh, and what everyone said about Naples. That shit is off the chain.

Posted by jhupp | March 13, 2008 11:06 AM

I think anyone who has had pizza at Pepe's Apizza, Sally's Apizza, or Modern Apizza in New Haven would agree that it's simply the best in the US, regardless of New Yorkers' local sentiments. Pepe's and Sally's are two of the first pizza joints in the U.S. as well. Heck - for myself living in Washington DC where the pizza is terrible, I think the average pizza place within 15 miles of New Haven is fantastic - the competition there is that good.

In December, I went to Lombardi's in the Little Italy section of Manhattan - Lombardi's is pretty much acknowledged as the first pizza place in the US. Good pizza, but didn't hold a candle to the best New Haven pizzas...worth the trip if you're within an hour or two!

Posted by Chris Hops | March 13, 2008 11:06 AM

Pizzeria Paradiso, right there just off DuPont Circle.

Most pizza, except a recent horror I had with a whole wheat crust, tastes like variations on a theme. Like someone plunking out Fur Elise. You can have a kid just learning to play or you can have a concert pianist. It's all still Fur Elise.

Pizzeria Paradiso makes the same ingredients taste like something else entirely.

Posted by Jeffrey Davis | March 13, 2008 11:06 AM

The worst thing about living in Chicago is that, even when places here try to do pan or thin-crust pizza, it almost always just comes out like a nasty, squished down version of deep-dish, with all of its bad point (dense, tasteless crust; crappy cheese) and none of whatever charms actual deep-dish pizza might have. It's really, really awful.

And more often than not, just to add insult to injury, they cut it into squares, apparently unaware of the efficient pizza-cutting system known as the "slice," which allows one to keep one's finger's clean and enjoy varied relative amounts of crust and pizza.

That said, we have our delicious Italian-style coal-fired upstarts here just like every other yuppie city does. Spacca Napoli is the best I've found, as good as (really, indistinguishable from) the best pizzas I ever had in Italy.

Posted by Christopher M | March 13, 2008 11:06 AM

"Armando's and Pinocchio's in Cambridge alone are better than all the pizza I've had in New York"

Quoted for truth.
And, Greek pizza is nasty.

Posted by Taisa | March 13, 2008 11:08 AM

I think anyone who has had pizza at Pepe's Apizza, Sally's Apizza, or Modern Apizza in New Haven would agree that it's simply the best in the US, regardless of New Yorkers' local sentiments. Pepe's and Sally's are two of the first pizza joints in the U.S. as well. Heck - for myself living in Washington DC where the pizza is terrible, I think the average pizza place within 15 miles of New Haven is fantastic - the competition there is that good.

In December, I went to Lombardi's in the Little Italy section of Manhattan - Lombardi's is pretty much acknowledged as the first pizza place in the US. Good pizza, but didn't hold a candle to the best New Haven pizzas...worth the trip if you're within an hour or two! Btw - I'm not a deep dish fan, but I thought the original Pizzeria Uno's in Chicago was great...

Posted by Chris Hops | March 13, 2008 11:08 AM

the only people in Chicago who actually eat deep dish pizza are tourists.

Absolutely true. I am from Chicago. I love Chicago. 'Chicago style' (deep dish) pizza, with or without potato in the crust, is revolting. I don't personally know anyone here who eats it voluntarily. As noted above, we do have actual good pizza, and it's the wood-stove, thin, crispy crust variety. We also have the soft-thin crust type which is OK. Eating 'deep dish' is like eating an aircraft carrier with sauce on it.

Posted by jonnybutter | March 13, 2008 11:09 AM

I lived in Chicago for about ten years, and I can safely say that the only times I ever had "Chicago-style" pizza were when guests were in from out of town. Or when the law school was hosting a lunch speaker from, well, out of town.

THAT said, I cannot tolerate New Yorkers going on about New York-style pizza. Yes, it is better than Chicago-style pizza. So are Domino's and Papa John's. But it sucks compared to a well-made middle-of-the-road pie. It's so damn greasy, and what's with the orange cheese?

But as the husband of an Italian literature professor who has spent significant time in the country, I can safely say that NOTHING compares to the average 6 euro pizza you can get from any number of sidewalk cafes. It's about the size of a plate, with paper thin crust, a dollop of tomato sauce, and the freshest baked mozarella you'll ever taste. My favorite was a french fry and tuna pizza that I got in a town on the French border last year.

Posted by Joe | March 13, 2008 11:10 AM

This is weird. It's almost like different people have different tastes. That can't be right. Everyone, please continue arguing until we determine the best pizza so the rest of us can fall in line and ensure the other pizza places close.

Posted by mike | March 13, 2008 11:11 AM

Oh and incidentally, Chicago "deep dish" pizza is properly called stuffed pizza. There is a thin, soft layer of dough on top of the fillings.

Posted by minderbender | March 13, 2008 11:12 AM

Thank you, mike. I mean, Jesus-- this is beyond asinine.

Posted by Freddie | March 13, 2008 11:18 AM

There are two styles of Chicago pizza which are distinctly different from each other - even though they look similar. Deep dish (Uno, Gino's, Malnati) is the big glob of junk. I am not a fan. Stuffed pizza (Giordana, Nancy's) is different - and outstanding. Giordano's stuffed spinach pizza is heavenly. Light crust, four cheeses. Try it sometime. Their thin crust is pretty good also.

I have had thin crust in many places. I am not a fan of the New York floppy slice - I prefer the crisper slices in Chicago. The best about ten years ago was Pat's on Sheffield, across from the Vic Theater. They had a fire and after it reopened, the pizza was not the same. Pat's has since closed. I believe the Pat's on Lincoln just south of Diversey is the same family. Have not tried their pizza yet.

Posted by Martin | March 13, 2008 11:18 AM

I grew up in Chicago and live in Brooklyn now. Both Chicago-style and New York-style pizza are fine and good, although they're really different foods whn you get down to it.

By the way, health violations or no, DiFara's in Midwood, Brooklyn is mind-blowingly good (I like the "sqaure slice"). Totonno's in Coney Island is second-best. The rest of the famous pizza places in NYC are lame, including Grimaldi's and Lombardi's. Most of the rest that people on this blog complain about are pretty bad. In every genre of food, there's good stuff and there's crap.

Posted by honestpartisan | March 13, 2008 11:18 AM

I think Martin is on to something. A lot of people eat Uno's in some shopping mall and decide that Chicago style sucks. Uno's is not Chicago style.

However, Gino's is stuffed, isn't it? I'm pretty sure I would remember if it weren't. Add Edwardo's to the list - its stuffed spinach is excellent.

Posted by minderbender | March 13, 2008 11:22 AM

Matt-- From one New Yorker to another, that is the most traitrous thing I've ever heard. What next? H&H isn't the world's greatest bagel? For shame!

Posted by David Shorr | March 13, 2008 11:24 AM

Aniello's in Corning, NY
Mandy's in Glens Falls, NY

Posted by cleek | March 13, 2008 11:25 AM

You aren't a real "pizza snob" if you make your own pizza. That's like saying "I'm a wine connoisseur, so I crush up grapes and make my own wine in the basement."

If you're a pizza snob who lives in Corvallis, Oregon, you're damned straight you're going to make your own.

I'm not, however, as whacked out about making a good pizza as this guy. No cutting off the safety lock on my oven so I can get it to more than 700 degrees for me. No sir. 500 and a stone works just fine.

Posted by Jeff | March 13, 2008 11:31 AM

Verbal masturbation. That's all that's going on here.

Posted by mike | March 13, 2008 11:36 AM

How typical of Obama supporters to enjoy eating pizza. Give me a top notch spinach salad and a glass of gris any day.

Posted by Tim K | March 13, 2008 11:36 AM

The best pizza (by far) I've ever had was at Truby's in Whitefish, Montana.

As you can see if you click through to their menu, they break out of the standard pizza shtick, and more power to them. Their thai pizza is probably my favorite, but the jamaican, the cajun, the greek pizzas are also topnotch.

Posted by low-tech cyclist | March 13, 2008 11:38 AM

My coding sucks.

Here's what I meant to post:

You aren't a real "pizza snob" if you make your own pizza. That's like saying "I'm a wine connoisseur, so I crush up grapes and make my own wine in the basement."

If you're a pizza snob who lives in Corvallis, Oregon, you're damned straight you're going to make your own.

I'm not, however, as whacked out about making a good pizza as this guy. No cutting off the safety lock on my oven so I can get it to more than 700 degrees for me. No sir. 500 and a stone works just fine

Posted by Jeff | March 13, 2008 11:39 AM

Joe: NOTHING compares to the average 6 euro pizza

For US$45, It'd better be pretty darn good!

Posted by Brian | March 13, 2008 11:40 AM

I've had terrible pizza in Manhattan, pretty good stuff in Suffolk County, but generally the sausage in NY is poor.

Chicago 'za has never done me wrong. I love making my own (except for waiting for the dough to rise). I've also had some paper-thin crust style in Milwaukee that's nothing short of perfect.

Posted by Matt B | March 13, 2008 11:45 AM

It's been a while since I've had New Haven pizza, but I believe it's what we in the northeast call "Greek pizza," which is particularly ubiquitous in Connecticut.

Tyro, if you ever find yourself on Wooster Street in New Haven, please don't try out your "New Haven pizza is really Greek pizza" theory. You'll find yourself in cement loafers at the bottom of the Quinnipiac river.

New Haven pizza is as close as you'll get to classic Neapolitan pizza without paying for an plane ticket. "Greek" pizza exists primarily in the eastern portion of the state, and while the oregano-heavy pies are delicious, they're certainly not recognized as "pizza" by any self-respecting Italian-American.

Posted by Mr. E. Meat | March 13, 2008 11:47 AM

The fact that the best pizza is in New Haven is so obvious it's not even an observation.

Posted by Z | March 13, 2008 11:51 AM

NY born, college in New Haven, now live in Chicago.

First of all, this:

"It's been a while since I've had New Haven pizza, but I believe it's what we in the northeast call "Greek pizza," which is particularly ubiquitous in Connecticut."

Several of the restaurants near the Yale campus do in fact serve this but it is an abomination. Don't know why people kvetch so much about Chicago pizza & so little about this. The New Haven pizza people talk about is thin crust in Wooster Square. Of which, I think Pepe's is actually a bit overrated but still quite good. Sally's is very good, as are Totonno's, Joe's of Bleecker St., & Grimaldi's in New York. I'm sure there are other's too, but in both places, you do have to actively seek out good thin crust.

Deep dish can be good. It's often soggy & has too much cheese, but it can be good, & good deep dish is often better than generic randomly-chosen NY pizza but can't touch thin crust. That New England "Greek Style," stuff, though, with congealed cheese & greasy crust, is just horrible.

Posted by Katherine | March 13, 2008 11:51 AM

As a Bostonian/sicilian exiled in the IL, I gotta say: New Haven, Boston, New York (and heretofore unmentioned Providence)- the best in each place is just so far ahead of what's available in the rest of the country that it's barely worth making a distinction. Put me down for any/all of the above.

The truth is that the arguments I used to have with New Yorkers on the subject now just seem woefully academic, an entry point into the competitive chest-puffing we so often enjoyed in each other.

In the larger context I must urge my fellow nor'easters to band together in rejecting and denouncing the cheese-slathered dough bricks that pass for pizza in the rest of the country.

But for the record, the best pizza is at Tripoli's, in Lawrence, Mass.

Posted by Pete | March 13, 2008 11:54 AM

Wow. Tough crowd here. Everyone seems to hate the Greek pizza.

That said, I consider myself properly chastened and warmed by Mr. E. Meat.

Posted by Tyro | March 13, 2008 11:56 AM

Finally, Matt, you and I agree on something! New Haven pizza (Apizz) all the way. A crispy thin crust white pizza with plenty of garlic and clams is beyond delicious. However, and this is controversial, having lived in New Haven for several years before decamping to the UK, I have personally found BAR to have pizza that's as good as the famous Wooster St pizzarias, but their speciality is the ever enticing white pizza with mashed potatoes (the best thing in New Haven if you ask me, especially with basil and bacon). Plus they make the best ale I've had in the USA - especially their stout.

I miss BAR pizza and ale a heck of a lot more than I miss anything else about the states.

Posted by Expat_UK | March 13, 2008 11:58 AM

I'm with you, Matt, and Rocco about the total lack of anything good about Chicago-style deep dish. Might as well just swallow a huge lump of dough as eat that stuff. I've never eaten anything so disgusting labeled "pizza" in my life.

However, I must also say that in my many trips to New York, I have yet to have a decent slice there either. Orange sauce with crust dripping with grease is not pizza. It's just as disgusting as the Chicago style, but in a completely opposite way.

Give me a real pizza. One with real ingredients. With ingredients that are the actual color found in nature. In fact, with ingredients that actually come directly from nature and not a can or jar or bottle (other than an olive oil bottle). Since I tasted real pizza in Italy, I have no desire to eat the garbage that most American pizza is. I'll either make my own or go to the little home pizza and bread business of that little old Italian lady up the street.

Posted by geg6 | March 13, 2008 12:09 PM

Wow, talk about some east coast bias here.

The best pizza ever comes from Portland, OR - at Apizza Scholls

Dough made by hand daily. Thin, crsip crust. Fresh, high quality ingredients. No nore than 3 toppings allowed per pie.

The Bacon Bianca is my favorite:

"Bacon Bianca – $ 22 (cannot ½ & ½) Whole milk mozzarella, grana padano, pecorino romano, lots of fresh garlic, herbs, black pepper, sea salt, extra virgin olive oil & our house made bacon"

Posted by Tiparillo | March 13, 2008 12:18 PM

Only a mad liberal could walk away from Chicago pizza without loving it.

Posted by JoshK | March 13, 2008 12:21 PM

I'm a pizza snob. Boston had some OK places, but now that I live in Oregon, I mostly make my own. But in reading Peter Reinhart's "American Pie," he indicates that the best pizza in the US is at Pizzaria Bianco in ... gasp ... Phoenix, Arizona.

Someone really ought to write a book about the interesting, unforeseeable demographic micro-consequences of the Witness Protection Program.

Posted by Daniel Munz | March 13, 2008 12:33 PM

When you're in Cincinnati, order yourself up a Skyline Chili pizza. mmm mmm...delicious!

Posted by ken | March 13, 2008 12:33 PM

If you're ever in Milwaukee, try the Artichoke a la Mode... cheese, tomato, artichoke, cream cheese and garlic. One of the top 3 pizzas I've ever had.

Posted by Max C | March 13, 2008 12:34 PM

Add Edwardo's to the list - its stuffed spinach is excellent.

Hear, hear. Grew up on the stuff.

Posted by alli | March 13, 2008 12:40 PM

I have eaten every pizza offered from every pizza vendor on the planet, and the winner is Happy Joe's taco pizza.

Posted by TooManyDans | March 13, 2008 12:40 PM

"The thing about pizza is that almost all of its various permutations are delightful. I would even argue that you can get edible frozen pizzas these days. But then again, I'm not that picky. I loved the chicken tikka pizza I could get in Wales."
Posted by Margaret

I agree. All this pizza talk got me jonesin' for some, but all that I could get was cafeteria pizza here at work. That's like a heroin addict resorting to a opium suppositories, but as we saw in trainspotting, the addict would swim through the filthiest toilet in Edinburgh to get them.

Mmmm. Pizza suppositories.

Posted by Njorl | March 13, 2008 12:41 PM

Until 2007, I would have said that California pizza was decidedly inferior to real Chicago and real NY pizza (which both have their place when done well). Now, with Pizzeria Mozza, I think L.A. might actually have the single best pizza place in the world (though most L.A. pizza still is greasy cardboard).

Mario Batali and Nancy Silverton (L.A.'s great baker from the La Brea Bakery) teamed up to take the best aspects of California and Italian pizza and make something magical. I've been to the great Chicago and NY pizza places, and to pizza all over Italy, and I would pick Pizzeria Mozza in a heartbeat.

If you can get a reservation or have the time to wait in line to get a seat at the bar, you'll have a chance to see what amazing dough and ultra-high quality toppings can do when married in just the right amounts.

Posted by Sisyphus | March 13, 2008 12:44 PM

"Someone really ought to write a book about the interesting, unforeseeable demographic micro-consequences of the Witness Protection Program."

Joe Bonano, who provided the bulk of the model for "The Godfather" relocated to Phoenix - no witness protection program about it.

Posted by Njorl | March 13, 2008 12:46 PM

The problem here is that there are really three different types of food that are called pizza. You are essentially arguing about whether white wine or red wine are better. It makes sense to compare in category. It doesn't make sense to compare the different categories as if they were all the same. And liking one category more than another is just a matter of taste.

Posted by Sebastian | March 13, 2008 12:56 PM

Pinocchio's? You must be joking. That's not even the best pizza in Harvard Square.

Posted by Mark | March 13, 2008 12:56 PM

Pepe's white clam is still the best pizza I've ever eaten. Just fresh shucked littleneck clams, garlic, olive oil and a sprinkling of parmesan and oregano. That's it -- no mozz, no sauce, and the word that came to mind when I first bit into a slice was "ambrosial". I'd love to know what they do to make their crust so delicious.

The only problem is that it's at its peak when it's too hot to eat.

Here's a photo: http://tinyurl.com/3ac7da

Posted by The Golux | March 13, 2008 1:00 PM

I may have been raised on a mountaintop in Tennessee, but I cast my vote for DiFara's in Midwood, Brooklyn. Nothing else even remotely compares. You take the Q-train to Avenue J and you're basically there. And the cultural experience is also worth the price of the Metro Card.

Matt, you need to hang out with more of us smart Gentiles if you really want to find the good dough.

Posted by BryklynLibrul | March 13, 2008 1:07 PM

The WORST pizza I've ever had was when I ordered takeout in West Philly. God, stupid students keep unbearable abominations in business.

Once, I ordered a slice of a white pizza with broccoli and chicken. It came with a sort of alfredo sauce under the cheese, which I think is unnecessary but whatever. Not exactly beyond the pale.

HOWEVER, I took a bite and realized something was terribly wrong. They had also used honey barbecue sauce. It was foul.

Also, some pizzerias didn't even bother with dough. They used crappy pre-baked shells. So bad.

I heard tell of decent pizza in South Philly but what good did that do me when hunger struck at 11pm? For a brief time, there was a Louisiana pizza shop (who knew such a thing existed as LA pizza?) near where I used to work, where you could get a cornmeal crust and andouille sausage. That was pretty sweet.

Posted by Margaret | March 13, 2008 1:08 PM

DeLorenzo's on Hudson Street in Trenton, New Jersey in better than any pizza I have had in New Haven which is better than any pizza I have had in New York. All are excellent, and one of the great things about the East Coast is that you can walk into any sidewalk joint and have a slice that is many, many times better than most everything you get in Los Angeles.

DeLorenzo's on Hamilton Street is also very good, but not up at the tippy top.

I also have yet to have very good pizza in Italy, but I haven't been south of Florence.

I also happen to like Chicago deep-dish -- especially the butter-crust at Lou Malnadi's -- but it's not the same dish, and it's silly to compare it.

Posted by Wrongshore | March 13, 2008 1:09 PM

Hey Al, stay away from DiFara's.

Really.

It's far too crowded as is.

Health code violations my a**.

This is NYC. Brooklyn. A tiny little one man show with the same equipment (and recipe) for the past 50 years. Not up to code? Perhaps. But the pizza is Teh Best. Anywhere.

Posted by Eric Martin | March 13, 2008 1:10 PM

I'm getting really hungry.

The best pizza is actually at Antonio's in Amherst, MA. The best pizza east of Chicago, that is.

Is Antonio's the brick oven place in downtown Amherst near the fire station? If so, I agree it is excellent.

I had a lot of Greek-style pizza when I lived in the Boston-Cambridge-Somerville-Medford area. It is smaller, more oily, with a somewhat thick but very crisp crust, and its own distinctive cheese and mild sauce. It's not awful stuff, and is perfectly tasty and edible when it's piping hot. But it's not the really good stuff, and isn't so good for next day out-of-the-refrigerator eating. And I never had one with mushrooms that weren't canned.

I prefer wide, thin-bottomed (but not disintegrated-bottomed) pizzas with a large, chewy, yeasty edge crust. I was the kid who always asked the other kids if I could eat their crust - which they often inexplicably left uneaten.

Lately we get our pizza from a small, Massachusetts-based chain called "Sals", which has a store here in Concord, New Hampshire. It features a 19" pie which is solid in the essentials: great crust, and very good sauce and cheese. The toppings are also very good, except for a few inconsistencies: notably the sausage. One of my favorites is a meatball and ricotta combo.

I don't know a lot about New York pizza. I don't care much for the slices that seem ubiquitous at a lot of take-out places around Manhattan: they're too thick and overlarded with topping excess. But one of the most memorable pieces of pizza I ever had was a big slice of plain cheese pizza from a totally nondescript place in the North Bronx.

Favorite all-time topping combination: roasted red peppers, hot sausage and artichokes

Posted by Dan Kervick | March 13, 2008 1:14 PM

I don't actually like American pizza all that much. Chicago or New York style, it tends to be a dense greasy mass of cheese, meat and dough.

In Italy, pizza really is more of a bread with toppings lightly sprinkled on. There are places in the U.S. that make it this way. When I lived in Ohio, I used to love the pizza at Rito's Bakery in Parma, which was just a very light bread sprinkled with olive oil, tomato and some mozzerella.

Posted by blah | March 13, 2008 1:22 PM

"It sort of pains me to admit it, but I actually think the best pizza may be in New Haven rather than New York,"

The choice between NYC and New Haven is really a jump ball.

Varasano's List is a pretty good ranking. And if you offered me a choice between a Luzzo's pie and an Apizza pie, I think I'd go with the Luzzo's.

Posted by Petey | March 13, 2008 1:29 PM

We are talking about pizzas that are so different in style, ingredients, presentation, preparation, and substance that they really are different foods entirely. It's like arguing about the best tuna in the world but one person is talking about giant bluefin belly meat (toro) and another is talking about once-cooked canned albacore from Oregon and another is talking about seared bigeye. If the only criteria for something being called "pizza" are an unfolded crust and toppings, there will never be any agreement.

How come nobody is mentioning Santarpio's in the Boston category? They're small in diameter and skimpy on the toppings, but there's something in the sauce (beef drippings?) and something about the crust that's pretty tough to beat.

Posted by tinisoli | March 13, 2008 1:31 PM

All the love for New Haven style has me fairly excited about the Pete's Apizza coming to Columbia Heights, which supposedly is in that New Haven pizza idiom.

But I generally agree with those who think all pizzas are pretty good; just some are better than others. In DC, I think 2 Amy's, Paradiso and Matchbox all make tasty pizzas. Armando's in the basement near Dupont Circle isn't bad for the standard New York style.

Posted by Neil | March 13, 2008 1:35 PM

Just noticed on omission re: the Milwaukee recommendation--the Artichoke a la Mode is found at Pizza Man (Oakland & North Ave).

Posted by Max C | March 13, 2008 1:40 PM

Wrongshore wrote:
DeLorenzo's on Hudson Street in Trenton, New Jersey in better than any pizza I have had...

Agreed. Except they don't call them pizzas, they're tomato pies.

Pizza in Boston (where I've been for 13 years since I left Trenton)has been getting better. Pizzaria Regina has a respectable slice. What I can't stand is Greek-style pizza. It cuts the roof of my mouth and the crust is too crunchy.

Posted by mjpaci | March 13, 2008 1:53 PM

I have to agree. The best pizza by far is in New Haven. And I'm a New Yorker who now lives in SF. I've eaten at all the top places in NY and none of them hold a candle to Pepe's.

Posted by noseeum | March 13, 2008 1:54 PM

"DiFara's in Brooklyn. The best. Bar none. Yes. Other than, you know, the health code violations."

Jesus Christ. Grow up, Al. DiFara's is yummy and worth the subway ride.

-----

But despite the excellence of DiFara's, it's not quite the best, though it is close to the top. Luzzo's and the weird experience known as Una Pizza Napoletana are the best in NYC. And Arturo's can be fun.

The New Haven places can be almost as good, and if you're in the mood for clams, New Haven takes the day.

Posted by Petey | March 13, 2008 1:55 PM

"DiFara's in Brooklyn. The best. Bar none. Yes. Other than, you know, the health code violations."

Jesus Christ. Grow up, Al. DiFara's is yummy and worth the subway ride.

-----

But despite the excellence of DiFara's, it's not quite the best, though it is close to the top. Luzzo's and the weird experience known as Una Pizza Napoletana are the best in NYC. And Arturo's can be fun.

The New Haven places can be almost as good, and if you're in the mood for clams, New Haven takes the day.

Posted by Petey | March 13, 2008 1:55 PM

According to the Italians, the best pizza on the planet is being made by a guy in California.

"Californian shocks Italians, wins Naples pizza-making contest.

Tony Gemignani's eight world dough-tossing acrobatics titles have made his name almost synonymous with the quirky craft of spinning the skins.

But when the co-owner of Pyzano's Pizzeria in Castro Valley, Calif., entered the Trofeo Citta di Napoli Championato Internazionale per Pizzaioli--which translates to the City of Naples Trophy, International Championship of Pizza Makers--pizza-baking contest last month in Naples, he was virtually unknown. Until he won it.

The American Gemignani shocked even himself by winning the STG--essentially "standard traditional guaranteed"--portion of the competition, which centered on the extraordinarily technical baking of true Neapolitan pizza.

"It was a bit surreal. I really couldn't even believe it," said Gemignani, 33. "Winning in Naples is something I've always wanted to do.""
http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/summary_0286-32632488_ITM

Posted by Stax | March 13, 2008 1:56 PM

Just wanted to second the guy who vouches for BAR in New Haven. I heard rumor that BAR poached one of the pizza maestros from Pepe's a few years back, which is why they're so good (and perhaps why Pepe's is considered to be slightly on the decline).

Posted by NHBkSS | March 13, 2008 2:01 PM

"But in reading Peter Reinhart's "American Pie," he indicates that the best pizza in the US is at Pizzaria Bianco in ... gasp ... Phoenix, Arizona.

Someone really ought to write a book about the interesting, unforeseeable demographic micro-consequences of the Witness Protection Program."

I watched a show on the Travel Channel that showed this place and the owner - and all I could think of was the old Steve Martin flick "My Blue Heaven"

Posted by phg | March 13, 2008 2:02 PM

What? Pinocchio's Sicilian tomato basil is nearly perfect for that style. What do you like better, Crazy Dough's?

Sal's is also great. They have a takeout place on the waterfront in Boston now next to Salvatore's, their sitdown restaurant. It's a close call, but I think New York Pizza on Mass. Ave. in the South End actually does have the best New York style thin (but not Neapolitan) pizza. Santarpio's in East Boston is very good, but not as close to my perfect style, a little thicker and cheesier with tons of toppings.

I think Bertucci's Sporkie (ricotta and Italian sausage) is excellent for a chain. However, if you walk in to some random pizza place in Boston, the odds are that it will be horrible. It's not like NYC or New Haven; you really have to know where you are going in order to be sure that you will get something decent.

I've had both great pizza and so-so pizza in New Haven. I think New York is the best for "walk-in anywhere and it'll be a pretty decent thin slice." The thin Neapolitan stuff is great there. Patsy's.

I'm also anti-Chicago-style. Giordano's spinach is palatable. Gino's sausage comes with a giant saucer of sausage the same size as the pizza sitting on top of it, which is at least sort of impressive. Pizzeria Due (Uno's second location) 4 cheese pizza is the worst of all time. The smell of the cheese nearly made me gag. Lou Malnati's thin crust, kind of like a cracker pizza, I like a lot. For some reason, Columbus, Ohio has that exact same style.

Posted by bob | March 13, 2008 2:06 PM

Zachary's Pizza in Oakland has stuffed pizza (not "deep dish") that's better than "good" stuffed pizza in Chicago. There may be "great" stuffed pizza in Chicago which is better than Zachary's, but I've not had it.

New York pizza is not any better than that available in the Bay Area, but it's more consistent.

Pizza in Italy is not comparable to pizza in the U.S. - it's an entirely different food. And it's better in Dalmatia than in Italy, or at least was back in 1984.

Posted by Anthony | March 13, 2008 2:28 PM

"This may be neither here nor there, but the only people in Chicago who actually eat deep dish pizza are tourists. The vast majority of pizza in Chicago is, actually, thin crust - so thin that, in fact, it is cut into squares and not pie-cut."

Bob's right. I'm a lifelong Chicagoan, and I've had deep dish maybe a couple dozen times.

By contrast, I eat the square-cut, thin crust nearly every week. It's my favorite kind of pie, by far. Nothing else is even close. (Though almost all pizza is good, even bad pizza.)

Posted by Greg | March 13, 2008 2:47 PM

I can confirm as well that Chicagoans very rarely eat Chicago-style pizza. It was something I managed to get over after my teen years. Now, once a year or so, I head to Malnatti's, but that's about it.

I love the square-cut pizza you can get in any residential neighborhood in Chicago or the 'burbs. It should be mentioned, though, that I also like New-York style pizza, which shows up from time to time around here.

What I don't get, though, are those people who like chain pizza places. Come on, Papa John's? Domino's? Pizza Hut? I wouldn't feed that stuff to a rabid mountain lion. (And if I tried, I suspect they would refuse it!)

Posted by itsmike | March 13, 2008 3:07 PM

Eric Martin, Petey: Please turn in your liberal ID cards immediately, since it turns out you may very well be a libertarian. Liberals well know that the health inspectors are just out to protect society, and therefore deserve our support in all their endeavors. Actively undermining their work in the fashion you did is distinctively libertarian.

You will notice, BTW, that I agreed with Eric about DiFara's. Good stuff, although I haven't been out there since I moved out of the city to the 'burbs.

Posted by Al | March 13, 2008 3:27 PM

the weird experience known as Una Pizza Napoletana [is] the best in NYC

Fuck, I agree with Petey. I think I'm now obligated to switch which presidential candidate I'm supporting.

Not the best, but Franny's is also very, very good.

And I wouldn't knock Otto either.

Posted by washerdreyer | March 13, 2008 3:40 PM

"What I don't get, though, are those people who like chain pizza places. Come on, Papa John's? Domino's? Pizza Hut? I wouldn't feed that stuff to a rabid mountain lion. (And if I tried, I suspect they would refuse it!)"Posted by itsmike

While Domino's is bad and Pizza Hut is worse, Papa John's is better than 90% of "Random Italian Name's" pizza joints. People who complain about it are just being blowhard snobs.

The crust is ordinary, putting it a step up from most places. The sauce is made from paste, like 99.99% of all pizza places. Unlike most of them though, they use fresh vegetables and unspoiled meat. They also have adopted the odd new custom of preparing the food in a clean area.

Posted by Njorl | March 13, 2008 3:41 PM

"the weird experience known as Una Pizza Napoletana [is] the best in NYC. Fuck, I agree with Petey."

If I knew I was going to be lynched at midnight for supporting the Democrat who's best on policy over the one best on style, I'd narrowly choose a Luzzo's pie over a Una Pizza Napoletana pie as my last meal.

I mean, just look at that thing. You can inhale an entire Luzzo's pie in about 45 seconds.

"And I wouldn't knock Otto either."

Otto's is fun and definitely worth a visit or two. But what they're serving there is a different animal than real pie.

Posted by Petey | March 13, 2008 3:56 PM

New Haven has the best pizza, like someone mentioned above the 15 mile radius around New Haven has the best places, because these places have people working at them that trained at Sally's and Pepe's.

Antonio's in Amherst MA is good if you like cool topping combos on your pizza, but if you order a slice of say pepperoni you will be disappointed. I like the steak and portabella mushroom with cheddar, but that isn't really pizza.

I grew up in New Haven and now live in Amherst so take my opinion for what its worth.

Posted by jbou | March 13, 2008 4:33 PM

New Haven has the best pizza, like someone mentioned above the 15 mile radius around New Haven has the best places, because these places have people working at them that trained at Sally's and Pepe's.

Antonio's in Amherst MA is good if you like cool topping combos on your pizza, but if you order a slice of say pepperoni you will be disappointed. I like the steak and portabella mushroom with cheddar, but that isn't really pizza.

I grew up in New Haven and now live in Amherst so take my opinion for what its worth.

Posted by jbou | March 13, 2008 4:34 PM

Domino's?

One of the saddest moments of my life was sitting in a hotel lobby in New Orleans and watching someone walk in with a Domino's box.

I mean, it's bad enough the locals eat it, with the options available to them. But why the fuck would anyone travel to NOLA and eat that???

People are fucked-up.

Posted by Thlayli | March 13, 2008 5:14 PM

Excuse me? Are you actually trying to say New York-style is better than Chicago-style? I didn't know cheese on cardboard was better than a pizza that has actual SUBSTANCE to it.

Posted by firebrand | March 13, 2008 5:32 PM

Alright, since my fellow "Chicagoans" (although I'm assuming most eat at a chain Uno's and think that's Chicago pizza or they've never really eaten pizza in Chicago b/c they are a transplant from the east coast)

what was I saying?

Oh yeah, This is how Chicago pizza breaks down. It's quite simple really.

1. The tourist pizza - The Chicago Deep Dish pizza. Invented in the 1940's by a Texan named Lou Malnati who was working at the real, original Pizzaria Uno. This is what most people think of when talking about chicago pizza. The dough is thick and made with yeast. Which is why it isn't a new york/new haven saltine cracker crust. You load it up with fresh mozzarella cheese. And yes, the cheese in Chicago is far fresher than it is in New York. We have this place north of us called Wisconsin. Our cheese doesn't sit in a refridgerated truck for a coupla days making its way to NY. Then you add toppings, and finally a ring of sauce. Best eaten with fork and knife. A heavy meal if ever there was one.

2. The God of Pizza - Stuffed Pizza from the original Nancy's near Clark and Diversey. As heavy as a Deep Dish, but ten times better. The lower layer of crust is rolled a bit thinner, then you add the cheese in, and toppings are added depending on what the topping is. The best is the spinich, which is mixed in with the cheese. Really light toppings like anchovies actually go on the surface of the pizza. Anyway, after the cheese is added, you take a super think piece of dough and that goes on top of the cheese, and is pressed into the crust (hence stuffed). Then you pour sauce over the whole thing and add fresh parmesan.

3. The original Chicago pizza. Really there are 2 forms of original Chicago pizza. Both are thin crust, both are cut in squares, both have a very heavily seasoned sauce. But there is a difference in North Side Pizza and Southside Pizza. I've had both. They are different. I can't put my finger on the difference. But if you're ever on the north or northwest side, go find Pete's Pizza. Its up around Irving Park and Western. Best thin crust pizza on EARTH. New York and New Haven look like light weight wanna be's.

Posted by jerry 101 | March 13, 2008 6:09 PM

I concur -- I've been to Bianco, and it's the best I've had in the U.S. But I've had better at any number of places in Italy. The quality of fresh ingredients in Europe -- maybe in Italy more than anywhere else -- is simply amazing.

One more example of the fasco-socialist hell that is modern Yurp.

Posted by Alan in SF | March 13, 2008 7:53 PM

Who was it who said that pizza is like sex, because even when it's bad, it's still pretty good? That person was right.

Posted by Adam Villani | March 13, 2008 8:22 PM

Chicago's best pizza joint is Piece, which makes New Haven-style (and killer homebrew).

Posted by retro-shiite | March 13, 2008 8:30 PM

Best chain pizza is Roundtable Pizza. It's only available in the West (and I do mean west -- AK and HI have them UT NM and CO don't). The original sauce is zesty with a nice zing. Pesto and Garlic sauces are also available. Their tag line used to be the last honest pizza. I like the King Arthur's Supreme, which is probably 80% toppings by mass. They use Cheddar, Mozarella, and Provalone. Costs more, but is worth it.

http://www.roundtablepizza.com/RTP/HI/

A small chain on the backside of the Sierra Nevada (e.g. Bishop, CA in the Owens Valley) called Pizza factory is also good. Their tag: "We toss them, they're awesome" is easier to spot than their name. Great after backpacking.

I've eaten at Zachs in Berkeley, which gets a lot of buzz. Big, touristy Chicago Deep Dish that is almost like a calzone. Blondie's (Telegraph) and Arinelle's (Shattuck) are closer to campus. Blondie's used to be all the rage. Both could be closed it's been so long since I've eaten at either.

Posted by Keith | March 13, 2008 9:05 PM

Anchovies?

No anchovies! I mean, no anchovies! You put anchovies on that thing and you're in BIG TROUBLE, DUDE!

Posted by Richard Steven Hack | March 14, 2008 4:22 AM

"You load it up with fresh mozzarella cheese. And yes, the cheese in Chicago is far fresher than it is in New York. We have this place north of us called Wisconsin. Our cheese doesn't sit in a refridgerated truck for a coupla days making its way to NY."

Yep, that freshness from the Wisconsin cheese orchards is all-important. Back east, in NY, PA, NJ and MD, all they have are dairies. They let milk sit around for months getting moldy and try to passs it off as cheese! Can you imagine that!

Posted by Njorl | March 14, 2008 10:18 AM

Wow, mozzarella cheese is made differently... learn something new everyday. Well, once a week anyway.

But hte idea that we don't make cheese east of the Appalachians is ridiculous.

Posted by Njorl | March 14, 2008 10:33 AM

The dough is thick and made with yeast. Which is why it isn't a new york/new haven saltine cracker crust.

Thin crust NY/New Haven/Neapolitan pizza IS made with yeast leavened dough. Always. It's just stretched thinly.

And I wouldn't describe any of those as "saltine cracker" like – that's a better description of Chicago-style thin crust. Gas-oven New York-style is even somewhat on the chewy side.

To my knowledge, the only major regional pizza made with unleavened dough is St. Louis style.

There's a post on Slice with a more complete List of Regional Pizza Styles (even more in the comments). Just in case anyone is as keen as I am about knowing all about pizza...

Posted by jack lecou | March 14, 2008 4:51 PM

Keith - Blondie's is still there, but I think Arinelle (sp?) is gone. A while ago, a place called Fat Slice opened up - they use sourdough for the crust. It's different, but I'm not sure it's better.

Posted by Anthony | March 16, 2008 1:10 PM

Chicago hot dogs stink, too.

Posted by Waquoit | March 19, 2008 9:05 AM

Chicago hot dogs stink, too.

Posted by Waquoit | March 19, 2008 9:05 AM