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Single-Payer As Mandate

06 Mar 2008 12:12 pm

Ezra Klein offers up some mandate analogies:

First, Obama aside, mandates matter because, sometimes, folks have to be protected from their worst instincts. That's why we force everyone to pay into fire departments through taxes. Otherwise, some folks would opt out under the theory that they don't do much cooking, and we don't want their houses to burn down.

Second, single payer, which so many folks love, is a mandate by a different name. That name is taxes. Some people will feel they can't, or shouldn't, pay that level of taxes, and they will be angry, just as some will feel they can't afford insurance, or shouldn't have to buy it, and they will be angry. Now, maybe single payer is a better way to structure the mandate. But it's a mandate nevertheless.

But there's a clear difference between providing a universal public service (fire department / single-payer) financed through progressive taxation, and between setting up a bunch of private for-profit firefighting firms and then forcing everyone to buy their services (health care mandate / weird quasi-libertarian dystopia). We're obviously not going to run a government policy in any are without "mandating" that some people do some stuff, but that's hardly the same as saying that mandating that people buy specific kinds of products from for-profit firms is a close substitute for public provision of goods.

This is why, to me, it's unfortunate that the discussion initially kicked off by John Edwards' health care proposal has tended to focus so heavily on the mandate issue and touch so lightly on the idea of introducing a public sector health care alternative to compete with private plans. That's a very good idea in my view, but obviously there are a lot of important details to be worked out. What's more, unlike making people buy health insurance, this is an idea insurance companies will really hate -- propose a substantial reform and I'm sure the insurers will tack a mandate on. But it's an idea I'd like to see the next president really fight for. What I don't want to see happen is the president come in having promised so loudly to pass "a health care bill" that he or she then feels absolutely compelled to agree to whatever the 41st most conservative senator will agree to even if that means a bad bill.

In terms of a mandate's relationship to single-payer, the point is that in order to make a robust public sector option viable, you either need a mandate or else you need to finance the public sector option with tax dollars which, as Ezra says, is a kind of mandate. But that all depends on the public-private competition actually being there. Absent it, what you have isn't anything like single-payer, it's a kind of large subsidy to insurance companies.

*[let me now note that even though the primary campaign has tended to swallow everything and what follows dissents somewhat from the Clinton line on mandates, I still think she has the better proposal at the end of the day]

UPDATE: See also Brian Beutler on legislative dynamics. To be clear, though, this post is not aimed at boosting Obama's fortunes vis-a-vis Clinton since I think they both have a similar problem here. The crux of the matter is that we don't want the next president to head into negotiations in such a way that he or she can't say no to any kind of "health care bill" that emerges. Reform is important, but it needs to actually be reform that makes things better not reform for the sake of "doing something" about the problem.

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Comments (48)

I just wish Clinton would say how her mandate system would work. How is she going to force everyone to have health insurance?

She still hasn't clearly said, except something about requiring employees to accept the health insurance a company offers without an opt-out. Which leaves several million uninsured.

I agree that a single payer, through taxation, is the best system, and would actually cost most people less than they are paying for insurance now, but that during a campaign, that is not very viable.

This is all Howard Dean's fault.

The system he established is amateurish and flawed; not only does it lunge dramatically to the left of the party (unrepresentative of the nation) but it also does not make mathematical sense.

Dean's apparatchiks have really dropped the ball, and the Democratic party structure will fall apart if the grown-ups don't move in quickly to give Hillary the nomination, because only Hillary can capture the White House.

The Obama fad is over. Let's get back to work, and our first priority should be re-order a house divided on itself.

Clinton has been very quiet about how the mandate would work, other than saying that she would "go after" people's wages.

Which is, of course, an electoral killer in the general election, and one among many reasons that I disagree with Ring Meza that "only Hillary can capture the White House." It think she's more flawed as a general election candidate than is Obama, and most polls to date back that up.

Obama puts it fairly well when he says the mandate isn't a mandate for *government* to do something but a mandate for you individually to do something. Only she doesn't spell out the consequences of not doing that.

I only wish he'd add that "mandatory" comes from "Mandate," since maybe some people would grok it more easily that way.

Regardless of who wins the election....

1. The U.S. will never have a single-payer health care system. Countries that currently have single-payer systems will continue to move in the direction of multi-payer health care, with an increasing share of total health care spending funded privately.

2. There will be no general mandate on individuals to purchase health insurance, or only a weak mandate (for low-cost, "catastrophic" health insurance, for example).

3. The share of GDP spent on health care will continue to rise, in the U.S and elsewhere.

riffle,

Clinton has been very quiet about how the mandate would work, other than saying that she would "go after" people's wages.

How does Obama propose to enforce his mandate on people to buy health insurance for their children?

Is that the same Ringo Meza who yesterday on this blog was making fun of Obama based on a theory that his name means "goat herder" in Somali?

(Which I doubt because the Somali word for goat is "ari", for goats & sheep together is "adhi", the word for shepherdess -- why the same dictionary has no male form I don't know -- is "adhijir", and the word for herd is "wagan". And not to mention that Obama's Kenyan ancestry is mostly Luo, who speak DhoLuo.)

http://www.markacadey.net/dictionary/english/s.html

Sorry if I missed this debate, but if the US already has a program that provides insurance to the poor, can't they just expand that program to include the portion of that 45M that doesn't have insurance because they can't afford it?

setting up a bunch of private for-profit firefighting firms and then forcing everyone to buy their services (health care mandate / weird quasi-libertarian dystopia).

This kind of thing isn't unheard of in government -- it's how a lot of cities do waste management, for example. Not an approach I favor, but there is a precedent.

How does Obama propose to enforce his mandate on people to buy health insurance for their children?

Clinton objects to charges that her program would make people who can't afford health care pay fines. I'm not sure that Obama would object to a charge that people who can't afford health care for their kids would pay fines, as it's generally considered more acceptable for the government to mandate that parents provide some basic level of care (food, shelter, or even child support payments) for their children. Mandating that people take care of themselves is totally different.

If he did object, then the situations would be symmetric.

Right, mandating the purchase of insurance is a regressive, highly inefficient, and easily corrupted alternative to the public provision of that insurance. And it is also right that in the end mandating insurance is just as coercive as taxing people to pay for a public insurance program, which calls into question the notion that insurance mandates are going to be more politically palatable than such a public insurance program.

But other than that, insurance mandates are a great idea.

Chilly, contracting out waste management to a private company isn't at all the same as mandating that individual homeowners make their own payments to 1 of 5 available garbage collection companies to have their trash hauled.

And Matt, this is a very well argued post, especially about the politics of getting a (good) bill passed.

Ringo, if you are going to spam threads with canned comments, you ought to at least put in a line referring superficially to the actual subject matter of the particular thread.

consumatopia,

You didn't answer the question. I didn't ask what you think Obama objects to, or how different you think Obama's and Hillary's mandates are. I asked how Obama proposes to enforce his mandate. Do you have an answer?

sometimes, folks have to be protected from their worst instincts.

Doctor, heal thyself.

Yglesias does a decent job of knocking this moronic citation down so I'd just like to add that this Ezra is the same idiot who said

a) everyone who doesn't live in a city is unhappy because of it

b) police aren't allowed to ask for proof of insurance at a traffic stop

Mixner,

You didn't answer the question.

I'm not Barack Obama, so it would be silly for me to answer the question. I was just highlighting the difference in the relevance of the question you posted and the question you responded to. I know you're a bit dense about this sort of thing, so take another shot.

fire department analogy fails... most fire departments are funded from property taxes. Taxation is somewhat proportional to "at-risk" property value (i.e., the house burns but the land doesn't get damaged too much) PLUS people insure their property generally with fairly high deductibles which reduces moral hazard.

This won't be the case under a health care mandate. Politics will not allow moral hazard adjustments for health insurance. The rest of us will be stuck with the bills.

Matt -- I agree with you that the public-sector option was the most important element of Edwards' plan, and the one that matters most to me. The mandates issue is a red herring; it falls below the "noise" level of what will change once this enters the legislative process.

I'm concerned with what will get us to single-payer, and I think the most effective way to move in that direction is to give people the option of joining "Medicare for All" or something similar. Mandating buying insurance isn't great (and allowing people to opt out isn't either) because anyone who's every had a health problem hates dealing with insurance companies, with good reason. Making insurance the solution will not build momentum for universal healthcare, and will not reduce the elements that make our current system so costly and inefficient. Politically, insurance will have to be involved in the transition, but the most important thing is to provide a politically palatable path that moves us away from private insurance, not toward it, and a public-sector option can be that path.

Consumatopia,

So that would be no, you don't have an answer. There's a shocker.

"single payer, which so many folks love, is a mandate by a different name. That name is taxes." -Klein

Wow. I nominate this for most full of shit statement I've ever seen on the internet. If it doesn't make any difference whose pocket the money comes out of, why don't we just bill Ezra Klein for the whole thing?

You didn't answer the question. I didn't ask what you think Obama objects to, or how different you think Obama's and Hillary's mandates are. I asked how Obama proposes to enforce his mandate. Do you have an answer?

The answer I've been given (which isn't Obama's answer) but works very well - the same way that children are "forced" to go to schools. The people who worry about mandates are going to be lower middle-class. Everyone below that will be covered by an expanded SCHIP, and above that they're rich enough to be able to afford health care that is capped by ignoring pre-existing conditions. That group of people will react poorly to any mention of mandated children's health insurance being linked to children welfare, but have no problem with it being linked to compulsory education.

Mixner,

Obama had this to say in a conference call back in November on the issue of how to enforce his proposed mandates:

"I would sign them up in school in the same way they would get inoculated. I would fine parents if for some reason they refused."

I don't know if that is the only thing he has said on the subject, but there you go.

Pesto -- we're not talking about contracting by government. Where I live, mandating that individuals pay one of the available trash services is exactly how it works. So yes, there are valid existing examples.

Single-payer is an impossible jump to make. The general take on health insurance is that people are happy with their current health insurance provider and are worried about their future health insurance.

Single-payer, which requires removing people from their current health insurance provider, is a hugely unpopular idea when it comes to saying how it works. It might be possible 15+ years from now when people are used to just signing up with the government health insurance plan instead of using a private health insurance plan, but it can't happen anytime soon.

And single-payer is mandates by another name. It's a more complex and complete form of mandates, with a requirement for paying into it and a single-provider that people are required to get care from.

----

And as a side note, Clinton's mandate plan included health insurance being provided from government sources in a pseudo-Medicare style. Just like Obama's plan did. There was never a mandate that required people buy health insurance from a for-profit health insurance company.

I asked how Obama proposes to enforce his mandate (on parents insuring children). Do you have an answer?

I don't know how Obama would answer this, but I imagine he could enforce this mandate any number of ways and not face any strong objections on the issue of mandate from even the staunchest libertarian (though he or she may object to cost). Children are wards, not full citizens. If the state can't mandate that parents insure children, the state can't mandate child school attendance, healthy living environments or child labor laws. The last three are uncontroversial so the former would be so as well.

Mandating adult citizens is another story entirely.

By the way, local governments mandating residents contract with third-parties to provide certain services rather than directly providing such services themselves is not necessarily a bad idea. It is still regressive and corruptible (just ask the Mafia about garbage contracts), but on the other hand there may be scale efficiencies to having multiple local jurisdictions contracting with the same third-parties for certain services. That said, an even better way to realize the scale efficiencies might be to combine local jurisdictions into larger units, or at least move the provision of those services up one or more levels of government.

"What I don't want to see happen is the president come in having promised so loudly to pass "a health care bill" that he or she then feels absolutely compelled to agree to whatever the 41st most conservative senator will agree to even if that means a bad bill."

This is an important point. Given the fact that in 2009 there will likely still be at least 41 Republican senators, and given how difficult it is to imagine that any of them would cross Grover Norquist and go along with any sensible health plan, I think we are likely looking at 2011 before this can happen... and only then if the Democrats do an (unexpectedly) good job of holding the Republicans responsible for stonewalling progress and turn that into a filibuster-proof majority in the 2010 election. (It also probably depends on a Senate Majority leader who doesn't respect all Republican's holds on legislation.)

Mixner,

So that would be no, you don't have an answer.

You responded to a lack of information about Clinton's plan with a question about Obama's plan. I pointed out that there's a difference in the relevance of the pieces of information in question. If you think there's something *wrong* with that pattern of response, you have a weird notion of how conversations work--for the rest of us, relevance is always key.

It's not my job to answer Barack Obama's questions. It turns out, thanks DTM, that Obama did plenty well enough on his own.

My observation on the difference in relevance still holds true.

I don't know if I have ever a greed mor wholeheartedly with a post, with one humble difference. Based on your analysis of the drawbacks of a private for-profit mandate, isn't Obama's plan to try to control costs and aid ins. purchase with subsidies preferable to the mandate you rightly denounce (if not reject)?

I know you're trying to cya on the anti-Hillary bias charge to keep readers (you'd be trampled by the press stampede if you did otherwise...) but you can't control the obvious applicabilties of your airtight arguments to exclude obviously applicable instances. I mean, sure, the Supreme Court can do that, but have some self-respect!

Alex,

Depending on how you define your terms, a single-payer program may not require people to drop their current insurance. How it works out in practice depends on issues such as whether people would get any sort of transferable credit if they opted out of the public program.

Incidentally, a single-payer system does not mean people will necessarily be required to get care from a certain provider. Also, generally a single-payer system is far LESS complex than a mandated insurance system.

My bad, I was responding to another thread, and I got here by mistake.

El Cid, yes, it's me. And I heard about the meaning of the name "Obama" from a friend.

Now you have to remember that many words in African languages have more than one meaning: so "Obama" could mean goat-herder, or witch-doctor, or a fluffy rabbit! Who knows, are you an expert? If you are, please enlighten us all!

Obama's grandfather's second wife is Luo, and she isn't Obama's biological grandmother. She is mistakenly identified as Obama's grandmother when she isn't. I seem to remember from one of Obama's two autobiographies (...who writes TWO autobiographies before he's turned 45??!!)that he claims that his biological family has roots in Somalia.

Understandably, Obama doesn't want Americans associating him with Somalis, who run some of the most violent organized crime rings in the American Midwest and in DC.

Mandating buying insurance isn't great (and allowing people to opt out isn't either) because anyone who's every had a health problem hates dealing with insurance companies, with good reason.

Hates dealing with insurance companies VS a government agency?

The only difficulty I've ever had with my insurance provider is when they transferred my information incorrectly in a software update (leading to some confusion at a pharmacy when my card wouldn't scan), which was fixed courteously and expediently.

If I listed every problem I've run into with a federal or state government agency, both personally and professionally, and detailed the degree of incompetence on the part of those agencies, I would probably be typing for a few days.

Based on your analysis of the drawbacks of a private for-profit mandate, isn't Obama's plan to try to control costs and aid ins. purchase with subsidies preferable to the mandate you rightly denounce (if not reject)?

If the complaint is that for-profit insurance providers, at least for basic health care coverage, are inefficient and need to be replaced, than having a mandated competition between a public system and a private system is the way to go. Subsidizing the private systems would in fact keep them around forever. So, Clinton's plan is probably a better path to single payer from a post-implementation perspective.

The problem is that focusing the fight on the differences between two very similar plans, and an absolute insistence on passing some health care legislation at all cost, kind of binds which ever candidate wins into agreeing to bad legislation.

So Clinton has good policy but bad politics.

"In terms of a mandate's relationship to single-payer, the point is that in order to make a robust public sector option viable, you either need a mandate or else you need to finance the public sector option with tax dollars which, as Ezra says, is a kind of mandate. But that all depends on the public-private competition actually being there. Absent it, what you have isn't anything like single-payer, it's a kind of large subsidy to insurance companies."

1) As I said on Ezra's blog, providing single-payer health care does not imply there is a mandate to participate. One can have one without the other, though having single-payer without a mandate would be an untenable position for a government to advocate.

2) Optimally, one would have a free Medicare system one could opt in to or private insurance one could buy or keep with an employer. This would create strong incentives for all to eschew private insurers and move in the direction of single-payer.

3) As others have noted, I'm skeptical of the ability of a Democratic Congress to anything hard or worthwhile. I'm really, really pessimistic. When historians look back at this era in 50 years, assuming that we're as 'free' as we were during, say, the 1990s; I think that the Democratic Congress will be faulted hugely for not standing up to the Administration's abuses of power.

So, for me, many of these debates are academic. I doubt anything substantial will be done on healthcare or anything important with a Democratic President and Congress. At best, it will be Bill Clintonian in tone--lots of little programs that help, but nothing that goes to the heart of the problems we face as a country.

In fact, I can see a bumpersticker:
"Vote Democratic. We wont make things that much worse."

I don't know if I have ever a greed mor wholeheartedly with a post, with one humble difference. Based on your analysis of the drawbacks of a private for-profit mandate, isn't Obama's plan to try to control costs and aid ins. purchase with subsidies preferable to the mandate you rightly denounce (if not reject)?

I know you're trying to cya on the anti-Hillary bias charge to keep readers (you'd be trampled by the press stampede if you did otherwise...) but you can't control the obvious applicabilties of your airtight arguments to exclude obviously applicable instances. I mean, sure, the Supreme Court can do that, but have some self-respect!

The US is not going to get a single-payer system in the next 4 years, and none of the candidates are advocating one.

That said, given that we are resigned to retaining our current system of private health care and private insurance, there are reasons why the combination of a mandate and a private health care system just doesn't work. It would be an inherently contradictory system and Obama is right to be skeptical.

For one thing, reducing the cost of providing heath care will not lower the prices charged consumers. The only thing that lowers prices is lower demand or greater supply, coupled with enhanced competition. Taking costs out of the system can allow competitive pressure to drive down prices, but it's not a certainty in a market with less than perfect competition like the one for health care services (imagine a town/county with only one full-service cancer hospital... what competitive pressure would there be to lower the price of a chemotherapy program?). In any event, to cite the estimated cost of providing care for indigents and then claim that this is the amount by which Americans' health care premiums will be reduced, as Senator Clinton has done, is an entirely dishonest argument. Some percentage of any savings (maybe 10%, maybe 90%) will be captured not by consumers but by the bottom line of the health care industry.

Moreover, there is an argument to be made that if you allow a private industry, such as the one that provides health care, to have a government mandate requiring people to buy their product, you create a market with zero demand elasticity and essentially allow the industry as a whole to raise prices as much as they like, without the trade-off in volume that any other business faces. If you sell bottled water, for instance, you need to weigh the fact that raising your prices 10% will result in selling X% fewer bottles. If a 10% price increase results in an 8% volume decline, it's worth it. If it results in a 12% volume decline, it's not. A mandate to buy private insurance would have a similar effect to requiring every American to buy one and only one bottle of water per day - they could charge $20 a bottle if they wanted to.

Proponents of mandates will respond that one need not worry about this because they'll provide subsidies to anybody who can't afford it. That's a great idea, but 1) there's no way this will be available to everyone facing hardship, 2) the government budget is not limitless and 3) those of us who can "afford" health care still don't want to see the costs go up.

The better solution for Americans as whole is a plan that lowers the cost of health care. This would enable most people who want it to buy it. It would allow the same dollars in subsidies proposed under a mandate to be stretched further. And it would lower health care costs for those of us who already have insurance as well.

You do this in a variety of ways, for instance, by taking on trial lawyers (which Clinton won't do) and supporting tort reform legislation (which Obama supports and Clinton does not) to limit medical malpractice lawsuits and lower the cost of malpractice insurance for doctors and hospitals.

Perhaps a better analogy would be auto insurance. In California (at least) it is legally required that you have auto insurance if you drive a car. Of course, people can, and a few do, ignore that. But if you get into an accident, and don't have insurance, you suddenly have a whole lot worse problems than just the accident -- no matter how bad it was. Even if it was in no way your fault.

As a result, the vast majority of the driving population buys auto insurance.

How would a health insurance mandate necessarily differ? (It could be made different, of course. But would it have to be?)

Shinyk, I've had much, much worse experiences dealing with health insurance bureaucracy than with government bureaucracy. Nothing fatal or horrible, but I've had problems with idiotic group plan policies, endless red tape on claims, and an ongoing problem with denials of coverage over a missing hyphen in a last name. I've never gone through this much with any public agency.

Redshift, that's interesting about garbage collection in your area. Does that mean that 5 different trucks might roll down your block on 5 different days, depending on which company your neighbors choose?

DTM
I don't know if that is the only thing he has said on the subject, but there you go.

So, Hillary and Obama would both enforce their mandates with fines. Presumably, this would include garnishing wages if the violator failed to pay the fine or had insufficient funds.

consum,
You responded to a lack of information about Clinton's plan with a question about Obama's plan. I pointed out that there's a difference in the relevance of the pieces of information in question.

There is no relevant difference. You were simply trying to change the subject. Both Hillary and Obama have proposed a mandate on individuals to purchase health insurance, and apparently both would enforce their mandate with fines.

shinyk,

If the state can't mandate that parents insure children, the state can't mandate child school attendance, healthy living environments or child labor laws. The last three are uncontroversial so the former would be so as well.

An individual mandate to purchase health insurance, whether for the individual himself or for his child, is obviously fundamentally different from a mandate for the other things you mention because it imposes a substantial out-of-pocket cost on the individual, and is therefore likely to be highly controversial.

An individual mandate to purchase health insurance, whether for the individual himself or for his child, is obviously fundamentally different from a mandate for the other things you mention because it imposes a substantial out-of-pocket cost on the individual, and is therefore likely to be highly controversial.

I don't see how mandating a "healthy living environment" for children is "fundamentally different" than mandating health insurance for children. Everything that goes into a "healthy living environment" (clothes, food, rent/mortgage, books, cleaning products, etc.), when combined, costs several times more than a monthly health insurance premium.

You can consistently argue that mandates on a "healthy living environment" are illegitimate and so are health insurance mandates for children (but you'd be getting into Randian territory and I don't think you will make much headway in pursueding anyone). What I don't see is how one is legitimate and the other is tyrannical. It's an all or nothing proposition.

Keep in mind, I say this as someone who wants almost every federal agency abolished (or at least downsized significantly) and the majority of federal laws, programs and regulations repealed and left to states.


I've never gone through this much with any public agency.

Thank your lucky stars.

TH

The better solution for Americans as whole is a plan that lowers the cost of health care. This would enable most people who want it to buy it. It would allow the same dollars in subsidies proposed under a mandate to be stretched further. And it would lower health care costs for those of us who already have insurance as well.

You are absolutely right to point out that health insurance does not drive the increased cost of care, so any insurance-related federal solution would be a stopgap at best, a sieve at worst. If insurance was the problem, it would be financially advanageous to pay for health care a la carte.

I'd also add that many for-profit hospitals have been getting themselves qualified for non-profit status and using that market advantage to buy themselves into de facto monopoly (while still turning huge profits), overcharging for everything based on the lack of a market. Michelle Obama's hospital in Chicago, which made a 1.5 billion dollar profit (after buyouts of other health related businesses and/or real estate) is a prime example.

shinyk,

I don't see how mandating a "healthy living environment" for children is "fundamentally different" than mandating health insurance for children.

There is no mandate on parents to provide a "healthy living environment" for their children, and plenty of children live with their parents under conditions that might reasonably be construed as "unhealthy," but are not illegal.

There is no mandate on parents to provide a "healthy living environment" for their children,

Mixner, every State in the Union has laws granting it the power to take children away from parents (and sometimes arrest the parents) for any number of reasons, including, but not limited to: filth, neglect, presence of cockroaches or rats, presence of drugs or drug paraphanelia, evidence of malnutrition, exposed wiring (and other hazardous structural conditions), suspicion or evidence of physical, psychological or sexual abuse, refusal to provide the child with medical care, failure to provide residency (i.e. homelessness), failure to send children to school, evidence of mental illness on the part of the parent, and on, and on, and on.

It is difficult to see how someone could construe these laws as anything other than a mandate on providing a "Healthy Living Environment" for children. And this mandate is much more expensive than a Health Insurance premium.

That some children remain in such conditions, unconfiscated, and some neglectful parents remain unarrested is irrelevent to the question of whether the 50 States possess the power to do so by law (i.e. flawless ubiquity in enforcement isn't a pre-condition for the mandate's existence).

In order to oppose health insurance mandates on children (again, adults are full citizens, children are wards) on the grounds that mandates on the treatment of children are tyrannical, you have to challenge the current, underlying precedent that child welfare is the business of the state and strip the 50 States of the power to police things like a "Healthy Living Environment" for children.

Correct or not, I don't think, given 100 years, you could persuede any measurable percentage of Americans to agree with you.

Please stop saying things such as, "We make everyone pay fire taxes." No, we don't. People who don't own property don't pay fire taxes. People who make less than a certain amount of income pay no income taxes. There is next to nothing in this country that is *mandatory* on all persons. And most of us like it that way.

If I wanted to live off the grid, have no income, pay no taxes, work only for my own subsistence, and freely walk around without an internal passport or other mandatory ID, I would like to be able to do that as an American. But if Hillary has her way, the government's going to hunt me down and punish me for not enhancing the profits of some insurance company.

Re: But there's a clear difference between providing a universal public service (fire department / single-payer) financed through progressive taxation

The taxes which support the fire department and other local services are not necessarily progressive. Often based on property values they are usually are fairly flat rate, but may in some cases even be regressive (e.g., when a lower income person owns a valuable piece of property).

Re: People who don't own property don't pay fire taxes.

Indirectly we do. The cost is passed on by a renter's landlord in the rent.

Re: can't they just expand that program to include the portion of that 45M that doesn't have insurance because they can't afford it?

The other George Bush (the one with a functioning brain) actually suggested this back in 1990, albeit in a not very serious way, and he included the idea of having people with above-poverty incomes kick in something to the program. Still, the states would probably oppose it since Medicaid funding is partially done out of state budgets and many states would have trouble coming up with the $$$.

Re: This won't be the case under a health care mandate. Politics will not allow moral hazard adjustments for health insurance.

There is very little "moral hazard" to health insurance. Even free-market gurus like Hayek recognized that common sense fact. While people are sufficinetly disconencted from their property that they may do foolish things with it if they are indemnfied against loss, no one can disconnect from his own health. Ill health (and injury) are their own disincetives, far stronger than any financial disincentive could be. Now obviously they are not sufficiently strong enough to deter many people from injurious health habits-- but if the danger of death and misery do not deter people can anyone in his right mind imagine that financial woe will deter people? Death is a million times stronger a persuader than money, yet even death cannot do the job.

Re: If I listed every problem I've run into with a federal or state government agency...

Apples to oranges. In the case of a health insurance company you are talking about a single entity, when you specify "governmment agencies" plural you are talking about many entities. A better comparison would be your insurance company vs Medicare. Or all government agencies vs all private businesses. In the latter case, in my experience, the government comes off much better as no government agency I have ever dealt with has come close to matching the poor service and/or outrageous costs I have had from the likes of Comcast, Time-Warner, Expedia.com, and various fast food resturants and convenience stores. I'd be surprised if the same were not true for most people.

Re: But if Hillary has her way, the government's going to hunt me down and punish me for not enhancing the profits of some insurance company.

I suspect that the Amish and some other religious groups will be allowed to drop out, a they may from Social Security. However they will also have to drop out of modern healthcare. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

I'm glad to see that the for-profit part of this mess is being discussed openly.

I have no problem with mandates for a Medicare like system...not the taxed part that supports our seniors, but a new sliding scale premium structure.

I refuse to support, as most thinking souls would, being forced through fines or garnishment, to buy a for-profit product of the government's choosing.

Before all you mandate freaks get your undies in a bunch, look at the Clinton plan. They have a list of providers you chose from under their mandate. It's a forced purchase of a candidate approved vendor.

That's malarky.

I don't see why they don't get out of the private insurance business altogether with any of these plans. Expand SCHIP to 25 and open Medicare on a sliding scale premium basis to anyone else that doesn't want to purchase private insurance.

Those that like their insurer can stay there. Those that don't or can't afford it can use the Medicare system.

BTW, Medicare does not affect your care choices any more than a conventional plan. You can keep your own doctor, choose your hospital, pharmacy, etc. I've been helping my Dad with his and the system works for the most part.

Matt Yglesias agrees with Obama that unions are the sort of "special interest" which needs to have less influence in Washington.

Isn't that clever?

http://matthewyglesias.theatlantic.com/archives/2007/12/krugman_versus_obama_cont.php

But some of us Democrats don't think "clever" is enough of an excuse for anti-union propaganda.

If labor is a special interest for Democrats, who are the Democrats?

Obama is also a clever anti-union...

I was about to say "Democrat," but it doesn't really make sense to say "anti-union Democrat."

Obama is a clever anti-union nothing.

Why does the back-and-forth here remind me of global warming debates, or atheists vs. agnostics, or evolution arguing.

Take for instance, raging science-type screaming their data in the religious person's face, who is going down the list of skepticisms, claiming that there isn't enough data, and the cycle goes on. Neither of them are actually talking about what really matters.

What if the science-type was instead thinking about how taking away 'God's creation of Man' affects the religious person's sense of purpose?

From what I have seen, the whole health-care issue isn't about health-care at all, and I think it even goes further than issues of government. Usually the words come out like: "I shouldn't have to pay for other people's in/actions."

But I think what we're really afraid of is that other people are going to have to pay for our in/actions. That can feel like a huge socially coercive restriction of freedom because I can't just be unhealthy as hell without having the guilt of making others pay for it.


Comments closed March 20, 2008.

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