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The Jeremiah Wright Factor

14 Mar 2008 03:24 pm

I've been slow on the uptake with the Jeremiah Wright issue because I don't just have a quippy joke to make about this. I'm unsure, in general, of what the standards we're supposed to apply to the political views of politicians' favored clergy. I have no idea what the rabbis at Temple Rodef Shalom (where I've gone to synagogue the past few High Holy Days) or at The Village Temple (where I had my bar mitzvah) think about political issues, but I assume I don't agree with them about everything, and certainly it'd be odd to drag up old statements made by any of the relevant rabbis about this or that and then ask me to either endorse the statement or repudiate the entire congregation.

By the same token, we don't assume that a politician who goes to mass wants to ban birth control nor do we ask Catholics who favored preventive war with Iraq to repudiate the Pope in order to prove their hawk bona fides. In short, we generally assume that a politician's stated political views express his or her position on political topics, and that affiliating with a religious congregation does not constitute an endorsement of everything the leaders of that congregation have ever said.

Which is a long-winded way of saying that I see this as a basically trumped-up issue. Obama's enemies have put this Wright stuff out there in bad faith, not because they're genuinely uncertain as to what Obama thinks, but merely because they think it can hurt him electorally.

But of course they're right that it'll hurt him electorally because Obama's going to have a hard time explaining that I take to be the truth, namely that his relationship with Trinity has been a bit cynical from the beginning. After all, before Obama was a half-black guy running in a mostly white country he was a half-white guy running in a mostly black neighborhood. At that time, associating with a very large, influential, local church with black nationalist overtones was a clear political asset (it's also clear in his book that it made him, personally, feel "blacker" to belong to a slightly kitschy black church). Since emerging onto a larger stage, it's been the reverse and Obama's consistently sought to distance himself from Wright, disinviting him from his campaign's launch, analogizing him to a crazy uncle who you love but don't listen to, etc. The closest analogy would probably be to Hillary Clinton's inconsistent accounting of where she's from (bragging about midwestern roots when trying to win in Iowa, promptly forgetting those roots when explaining away a loss in Illinois, developing a sporadic affection for New York sports teams) -- banal, mildly cynical shifts of association as context changes.

This is why I don't, as an American citizen, worry that President Obama would be objectionable. But Americans take their religion seriously and aren't going to want to hear this story. So Obama's going to have to do some awkward further distancing.

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Comments (298)

This isn't an issue.

This is another way of pointing at Obama and saying:

"Look, that guy's BLACK. He goes to a church filled with BLACK people, with BLACK minister who says things that BLACK people say."

If this were an issue, then all the republican candidates would have had their preachers vetted by the movement conservatives on issues like abortion, access to contraception, and civil unions for homosexuals.

I have no idea what the rabbis at Temple Rodef Shalom (where I've gone to synagogue the past few High Holy Days) or at The Village Temple (where I had my bar mitzvah) think about political issues, but I assume I don't agree with them about everything, and certainly it'd be odd to drag up old statements made by any of the relevant rabbis about this or that and then ask me to either endorse the statement or repudiate the entire congregation.

Are you close with any of them? Did any of them marry you, or give you the inspiration for the title of your book?

Regardless of the outcome/political play of this issue, I just don't think that's a fair comparison.

Contrast your "(where I've gone to synagogue the past few High Holy Days)/(where I had my bar mitzvah)" to a twenty year membership and crediting the insitution as being highly influential in one's life.

That's why this is getting media play - not because he and his wife occassionally showed up there.

And I'm backing Obama no matter what, and this is not a big deal for me as a voter, but that was a very poor comparison.

It's the two-step American politicans from non-traditional religions go through. The American Methodists has non-mainstream views on the Israel/Palestine issue, but no-one asks if George W. Bush, a noted Methodist who chose that church as an adult, if he agrees with the Methodist position on divestment from Israel. Why not?

Note that Bush chose Methodism over his familial Episcopalianism -- perhaps becuase he wanted a more authentic middle-American church, not an elitis Yankee faith. Same as Obama.

In a sane world, the Wright story would be as much small potatoes as Hagee has been for McCain (Hagee may be a big deal on liberal blogs, but it hasn't really broken through to cable news or mainstream media outlets). But of course, the world isn't very sane.

analogizing him to a crazy uncle who you love but don't listen to

But of course you can't choose your family. Obama clearly chose to associate closely with Wright. He chose to go listen to Wright preach for 20 years. He chose to take his kids to hear those sermons. He chose to get married there. He chose to put Wright on his advisory committee and describe Wright as a close advisor.

Those choices do to some extent constitute an endorsement.

After all, if the rabbis at Temple Rodef Shalom preached hateful rhetoric time after time when Matthew attended temple, would Matthew continue to go there? If so, wouldn't that constitute at least some endorsement of the message?

"it's also clear in his book that it made him, personally, feel "blacker" to belong to a slightly kitschy black church"

As a biracial guy, I can get that. You get it from both sides when you're not pure yet in general you tend to associate more with the side you look more like (which often isn't the white side, including in my case). When you don't have a clear demographic identity laid out in front of you, you have to make it on your own. That means you often try to search for something authentic on which you can claim proves that you are really part of whatever ethnicity, even if you are also part of another ethnicity. The search for authenticity can be powerful, especially when you're young.

Here's the problem with your analysis, Matt, being anti-birth control or anti-war is not an outside the mainstream position. Granted, the former is certainly a minority position but it is one that many people can understand even if they do not agree or particularly respect it (mostly because it's been around for awhile).

However, what Wright has said is not in the mainstream, not even close. Blaming the U.S. for 9/11 for example.

Now, if George Bush called Pat Robertson (who we all know has made similiar statements) his mentor and spiritual advisor and named his book after one of his sermons, most people would probably be appalled. So it's a combination of this man being a close advisor and friend to Obama for 20 years and also the fact that his statements are very much on the fringe. Not simply disagreeable to many people, but abhorrent.

I have no idea what the rabbis at Temple Rodef Shalom (where I've gone to synagogue the past few High Holy Days) or at The Village Temple (where I had my bar mitzvah) think about political issues....

Well that alone makes them rather different from Rev. Wright. The fact that Wright's politics are central to his message is what makes them relevant.

I think this is going to be less of a problem a couple of weeks from now than it might presently appear. Little though we care to admit it on this side of the aisle, lots of Fundies are pretty normal people who sketch out when their pastor says that God wants us to crush Teh Gays beneath our feet or whatever. That is, religious people are, I think, much more familiar with distinction between attending a church (or synagogue or what have you) and accepting everything that's said from the pulpit. I suspect the media is less religious than the country at large, and so is less likely to be comfortable with that distinction. So the media will freak for a bit. And then they'll notice that lots and lots of people don't care. (Cf. fans vs. media on the steroid scandal.) And come up for some idiot explanation for it before moving on. But they'll move on.

Who knows? But this doesn't bother or worry me at all.

>I have no idea what the rabbis at Temple Rodef Shalom (where I've gone to synagogue the past few High Holy Days) or at The Village Temple (where I had my bar mitzvah) think about political issues....

Didn't you previously describe yourself on this blog as an atheist?

There's even less to it than Matt thinks: http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2008/03/what-obama-saw.html

Which is another way of saying the media are being unfair both to Rev. Wright and Sen. Obama. (To be sure, I don't agree with the comments in the Wright video any more than Obama does.) I suspect the importance of "belonging" that Matt sees as cynical is real. He didn't want to appear to be a member of the community on the South Side; he wanted to BE a member of that community, and he found common ground in universal principles, albeit Christian-specific language. This was long before he was a candidate for anything, let alone a racially mixed seat in Hyde Park, but a civil rights lawyer and community organizer.

Anyway, Obama's right -- he should be judged on his own words and actions, and ordinarily the question of wheher he agreed with Wright wouldn't even be asked. That PA primary sure is a long way away, isn't it!

We all could do without the concern trollery, as well. However, it's nice to see all the good readers at TPM telling us where the goalpost for appearing acceptably black is presently located, though I'm sure it will be move anon.

Sullivan just put something up on this that I think is interesting to think about - the Wright stuff causes two smears to split open. It's hard to call him a closet muslim while at the same time bashing him over his closeness to his Christian preacher.

I'm not really sure how this all plays out - it's theoretically possible that it'll help him by making him look more mainstream (read: Christian) but that doesn't seem likely.

I would say this gets a little touchy in the general election in as much as that if the GOP plays the 'angry black man card' too prominently, they risk being more or less permanantly branded as a bunch of racists. Basically they could find themselves losing by winning.

I'm finally in on a Wright thread early enough to weigh in. Basically, if Obama didn't know this was going to be a problem, and hadn't already anticipated how to handle it, then he's not the politician he's shown himself to be in this primary.

I think it's a great opportunity to talk about the positive things the church has done for him (brought him to Chirst, made him part of a community, surrendered to a higher power), and the rubes will eat this stuff up. He can than highlight how much he dencounces, rejects, etc. the divisive parts of Pastor Wright's message.

That's not going to stop Sean Hannity, Al, and a distressing number of Hillary supporters from cynically flogging it until the bitter end. But he may be able to spin it into a net positive. If he can make it a conversation about his faith rather than his crazy black pastor, it only strengthens him in the areas where Dems have been weakest, and he may be making inroads electorally.

namely that his relationship with Trinity has been a bit cynical from the beginning.

Did you have some evidence you wanted to post for this or were you just trying to do a drive by hit? I mean, on the surface there is nothing to suggest he didn't pick a church for the same reason millions of white folks do every day but because he's half-black, he's automatically working a con somehow?

If you don't actually have any evidence he chose his church based on cynical politics, isn't it just as easy, or easier, to construct a narrative that if he was picking a church based on political calculation, he'd pick one without a lot of the militant/black nationalist baggage of Trinity?

What gives Matt? This is just stupid.

Paradoxically, it is because Americans take their religion so seriously that they will give Obama a pass on this.
How many of us would want to answer for all the specific beliefs of our denominations?
Too many good Republicans have been members or churches with damn odd beliefs for them to take Obama down because his pastor likes fiery sermons.
Rarely does mote in his, beam in yours logic work in politics, but this is one case where it does, bacause the stakes are so damn high and people are genuinely shamed about revealing their own denominations faults.

Another interesting paradox. If the Republicans were the party of atheists, then Obama would have a real problem, since the atheist only has to defend non belief, but because most republicans are belivers, taking on Obama for his pastor's sins becomes much much harder.

I'm sorry Matt, but it seems like a bit of a double standard on your part after all the McCain stuff. I like Obama and all, but if it doesn't count for Obama and Kerry then it doesn't count for McCain either. Right?

The man who married me and baptized my child is a bit of a crank. He has views on a number of things I personally disagree with and he can be off-putting in the pulpit. The difference with Wright? He's white. Ultimately this has nothing to do with religion. The clips that were put out didn't contain questionable dogma, but political content that many white Americans might just not find objectionable but frightening. To be the first black president means you can't really be black. You can be Wayne Brady black (he does make Bryant Gumble look like Malcolm X, after all), but not Chris Rock black. The Rev. Wright is Chris Rock black, and for Obama it's a major liability. Not if McCain stumbles or the Dems convince the public he's Bush III. But in a close election, he could sway enough votes to swing Ohio or Pa or Fla. Obama needs to hit this one head on. If he speaks about his faith the way he's written about it, he can turn this to his advantage. In the meantime, he can start wearing a flag lapel the size of a stop sign and learn to play America the Beautiful on the kazoo.

brewmn,

Wow, and I thought I was an optimist. I hope you're right. If Obama can spin this into a net positive, then he truly is a gifted politician. I think the best he can do is minimize the damage. Its always hard to tell which stories will last. My instincts tell me this is a big one.

I fail to see what's controversial about Wright's comments. That terrorism is partly a response to American international behaviour? Were the invasions of Afghanistan/Iraq unconnected to the events of 9/11?

This is an example, and there will be many more, of how Obama will "Dukakized" in the general (as opposed to "Gored") by the GOP and their MSM schills. You know, an out-of-touch, elitist, strange, America-hating liberal.

Much like Dukakis himself in 1988, some Obama supporters here seem to believe that the American people won't be taken in by such nonsense. I hope Obama doesn't share that belief, and understands some serious, constant, and aggressive Clintonian push back is needed in dealing with both the GOP and the MSM hacks.

Progressives of course should be defending the comments since they are blaming American policy just like progressives used to do. But I guess that's not OK. It's certainly never a detriment to GOP politicians that their religious figures blame the gays and the multicultural society. But of course there is a double standard isn't there.

amaretti biscuits,

I don't know whether Matt's an atheist, but just for the record, lots of atheist and agnostic Jews attend High Holy Day services. A good many probably attend regular shabbat services, too.

NHct, I mostly agree. Except I'd just add that if indeed the Rev. Wright stuff, or the "he's really a muslim" stuff ends up swaying enough votes to change the outcome of the election...then democracy, once again, will be the system that doesn't get you the best rulers, but gets you the ones you deserve.

"I'm unsure, in general, of what the standards we're supposed to apply to the political views of politicians' favored clergy."

For starters, how about employing the same standards to Obama that you do to McCain? If you believe that this is basically a "trumped up issue" against Obama, how can you feel otherwise regarding Hagee's endorsement of McCain?

There is no question that Obama is much closer to Wright, for reasons already stated, then McCain's relationship with Hagee.

It is so funny that you guys refuse to see this for the big deal that it is. There is no way Obama is going to carry Pennslyvania and Ohio in the General Election when his spiritual advisor and family friend for 20 years believe that blacks should pray to God to damn America for her "sins" and that all white people hate all black people.

For once, I completely agree with MattY: this is a completely trumped-up issue.

In fact, there's nothing wrong about Wright's comments, and there's absolutely nothing for Obama to apologize for or even distance himself from.

I'll go even further: Obama should invite Wright along on his campaign appearances, so he can spread his spiritual guidance to all of America. Obama is a true fighter for justice, and as president he'll be sure to put Wright's advice to good use running the country!

As I said at another blog:

"People seem to want one of two things, either for Obama to reject the more radical remarks made by Wright or reject and denounce Wright himself.

On the first part, he has done this several times in the pasat and, to his credit, continues to do so without whining about it.

Consider this scenario: One month from now somebody replays Ferraro's comments and asks Clinton to disavow them. Would that be fair to do? And do you think Clinton is going to say "Of course I reject and denounce them" or "Look folks, that is old news, I already did in the paast and I resent them coming up again."?

My sense is it would be the latter.

On the second request. Wright represents somewhat of a father figure for Obama. Now, my father was an alcoholic bigot who would frequently tell off color racist jokes and signed a petition to keep AA's from moving into our neighborhood. In addition to that, he also taught me about the necessity for honesty, hard work and the need to remain true to myself.

Because part of who or what he was was a negative, which I have rejected, do I have to denounce him as an individual? Anybody that tells me I would have to can go ... ."

Additionally, people presume that this is the way Wright talked all the time when there is plenty of evidence that it actually represents a minor part of his preaching. Additionally, for those of you who bring up the 20 year stuff, would you please provide evidence that Wright was preaching this way back then.

For those that talk about it being a Black Nationalist Church, baloney. It is a church comprised of primarily African Americans who take pride in that heritage and want to promote it and keep it alive. At the same time it is not racist, does not exclude whites (many attend it regularly) aned in fact, is a part of the most inclusive Protestant denomination in the US.

I frequently attend a small Roman Catholic shrine in Chicago which promotes itself as promoting and maintianing a strong Italian heritage. I am not Italian. But what is the difference between that and the main mission of the TUCC?

Mark,

He seems to be saying that terrorism is some sort of divine retribution rather than human retribution. I mean, I don't think bin Laden cared about us bombing Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Either that or he's making the point that Americans have a double standard, in the sense that we don't care how much suffering we cause to others, but are outraged if the tables are turned.

The former position is nuts, but then so is the belief that God picks the Super Bowl winner. The second position is true, although I'm not sure if Americans are exceptional in this regard.

"I'm unsure, in general, of what the standards we're supposed to apply to the political views of politicians' favored clergy."

For starters, how about employing the same standards to Obama that you do to McCain? If you believe that this is basically a "trumped up issue" against Obama, how can you feel otherwise regarding Hagee's endorsement of McCain?

There is no question that Obama is much closer to Wright, for reasons already stated, then McCain's relationship with Hagee. Right Matt?

It is so funny that you Obama supporters refuse to see this for the big deal that it is. There is no way Obama is going to carry Pennslyvania and Ohio in the General Election when his spiritual advisor and family friend for 20 years believe that blacks should pray to God to damn America for her "sins," that the U.S. government is responsible for the spread of AIDS and drugs in the black community and that all white people hate all black people. And without those states, he cannot be elected President.

What exactly is wrong with what Wright said? And where are people getting the idea that he's "racist"?

McCain has no affiliation with Hagge's church, yet he seeks out his support. He either doesn't bother to see if he's a nut or he doesn't care, he just wants his endorsement.
Obama works within his church, takes the positive from Wright, dismisses the negative, actively argues with him and ultimately helps bring moderation to the pulpit of Unity church.
Please tell me of the 2 who deserves respect.

Well, Matt, I've been warning you this day was coming for an entire year, and you knew it was coming from the time when you finally read "Dreams From my Father," and saw that Wright takes up most of pp. 274-295 in Obama's autobiography.

Obama's response to the Pittsburgh interview was his one chance to get out in front of this issue, and he failed miserably. "God Bless America" and September 11 are two icons that cannot safely be desecrated in today's political climate. Wright did both.

When Obama was confronted with Wright saying "God Damn America" his only response should have been to react in horror, say that his entire work has been to try to bring a blessing to America and announce that he could not associate in anyway with someone who expressed such thoughts.

When Obama was confronted with Wright recycling Malcolm X's "chickens coming home to roost line" (which was pronounced immediately after JFK's assassination) on the Sunday after September 11, he could not passively take it stride. He needed to announce his revulsion and move on. (I imagine that many will wonder whether Obama was in church that day - most churches were packed).

This is a moment like Michael Dukakis being asked about the death penalty if Kitty were raped and murdered. Dukakis should have known those types of questions were coming and answered in a way that did not disqualify him in they eyes of most Americans. Obama is likely to meet the same fate. I only hope that he does not get the oppportunity to lose in November.

The political point of these kinds of non-issues is that so few people are going to bother finding out what it is that Wright said. Fewer will try to find out if the criticism is apt.

So it goes. The right wing noise machine, aided and abetted by HRC. Wotta surprise.

One little point for perspective, though -- the things that would make an Obama presidency groundbreaking from the perspective of dealing with America's racism are exactly the same things that make Wright an issue.

If there are no sparks, there's no grind.

OMG. Is John McCain the voice of reason?:

According to TIME's own "The Page," McCain's senior adviser Charlie Black told MSNBC's Morning Joe that he would give Obama a full pass on the Wright rhetoric, echoing McCain's view that candidates should not be held responsible for what their supporters and endorsers say."

http://www.time-blog.com/swampland/2008/03/mccain_campaign_returns_to_sol.html
Posted by observer2

Too many Democrats are afraid of issues like this and say "I don't care but others will so the issue must be addressed. It could hurt him!" That's a losing proposition of explaing complicated things.

The burden is on critics of Obama to bring it up, not for Obama to explain it because it's on YouTube. If the press asks Obama he can use the "crazy Uncle" line. If the GOP brings it up then Obama can credibly hammer the crap out of them for being hypocrites who gladly deny the principles of freedom of speech and freedom of religion at the drop of a hat if they can make something into a divisive campaign issue.

Matt's assertion that Obama's joining Wright's church for a combination of cynical political reasons and kitschy racial solidarity (I'm finally black enough!" reasons is documented in my article from a couple of months ago that outlines Obama's relations to various religions:

http://www.vdare.com/sailer/080120_obama.htm

Well, Matt, I've been warning you this day was coming for an entire year, and you knew it was coming from the time when you finally read "Dreams From my Father,"

And yet Obama will still win.

It is precious watching someone who thinks of himself as respectable, yet has a sizeable neo-nazi/white supremacist following, do the guilt by association thing.

It is so funny that you guys refuse to see this for the big deal that it is. There is no way Obama is going to carry Pennslyvania and Ohio in the General Election when his spiritual advisor and family friend for 20 years believe that blacks should pray to God to damn America for her "sins" and that all white people hate all black people.

Look dumbass, we aren't refusing to see anything. We just aren't going to make an electability decision based on Clinton's or the GOP's ability to smear. It can be done to anyone for any reason. Four years ago, we nominated a war hero with phenomenal national security credentials. By election time, we found out that man had betrayed his county and was secretly working for the North Vietnamese.

There's no reason to believe Obama is anything other than what he has consistently lived and said the last 46 years. And if that isn't enough to overcome the racial smears and racist innuendo, he'll do just as well as the last five out of seven WHITE nominees.

Obama WILL BE the nominee, so you need to decide now if your going to give this Dick Morris shit wings and help bring about the result you are so desperately warning us about, or push back rationally against it.

America is the most hated country in the world and has a strong racist anti-Black past, much of which persists today. Obviously Wright exaggerated and lost control at least sometimes in his sermons but it's important to recognize that he was stating the views of many which deserve to be heard. He is angered by prejudice in America. Like Ron Paul, he believes that America's foreign policy has been misguided and that "blowback" has occurred. Unlike Bush who lives in a neocon bubble which does not brook contradiction or dissent, Obama has listened to differing views. This is to his credit. In order to solve problems, one must know what the problems are. Bush just basically fired Fallon for opposing an attack on Iran, and Bush is currently giving speeches saying he will always believe that he was absolutely right to invade Iraq. His congregations are the "America is always right" variety. Bush has no idea what the rest of the country or the rest of the world thinks. He no doubt thinks our foreign policy is just dandy and will soon invade Iran. Obama has stated that he rejects many of Wright's comments. Yet it's important to remember that throughtout our history many American soldiers have died so that people like Wright have freedom of speech. It makes our country a better place.

Seems to me the correct response is something like:

"Look, my skin may be brown, but as you know I grew up in a white household among white relatives. As I wrote extensively in my book, I needed to get in touch with the other side of my heritage. Rev. Wright helped me do that. But he is also product of his generation and can be at times fairly radical. And he taught me a lesson he never intended to teach: the old radicalize way does not work. Perhaps it was helpful before, I'm not sure, but it certainly does not help today. We need to get past that; a cause I've largely dedicated my life towards."

Or something along those veins.

"So it goes. The right wing noise machine, aided and abetted by HRC."

The fact that the Democrats, and the Media, constantly roll over and pander to the rightwing is the problem.

Here's how it works:

1. GOP smear artists dream up next scurrilous attack.

2. Rush Limbaugh and Drudge push it.

3. FoxNews picks it up and plays it again and again.

4. CNN and MSNBC copy them.

5. Pretty soon the NYTimes and WaPo start talking about it.

6. Mission Accomplished -- Rightwing spin becomes news.

I think the MSM and Dems have to stop being so cowardly and panicky about the GOP smears. Start fighting back for a change.

The great irony? Of the larger churches on Chicago's South Side, Trinity is one of the most inclusive with a number of white congregants. In fact, a far more politicized South Side congregation is St. Sabina's - http://www.saintsabina.org/ - which happens to be led by a WHITE priest: http://www.saintsabina.org/legacywebsite.html

All the same, I sadly DO think Obama's going to have to come out strongly about that. His camp does believe they dealt with this over a year ago. Here in Chicago, it was not a small deal when Rev. Wright was disinvited at the last minute from attending the announcement of Obama's candidacy. If memory serves, he was scheduled to be one of the main speakers. Even then, it was take as Wright's being thrown under the bus.

Obama's in a real Catch-22. If he renounces Rev. Wright under the bus, it will probably go against everything Obama believes in as a human being. At the same time, if Obama fails to do so, I agree that the road to the White House may be permanently blocked.

I don't see Obama turning away from his pastor of most of his adult life. He's better than that. How he finds his way out of this, I don't know but DO have hope. If he succeeds in doing so, I also believe it only strengthens his candidacy.

As others have said, at least the world now knows he has a pastor, not an imam!

county

Country, too.

Oh yeah, and Obama's black! Black black black black black black!!!!! And his pastor is black and scary! Black and scary! Black and scary!

Has anyone brought up that Obama's mama had sex with a black when it was still probably against the law and if not against the law, CERTAINLY frowned on!?!

Steve Sailer, I bet you did a diary on it, didn't ya?

Jim W,

Maybe he's said more than this but the quotes I've encountered have him saying "God damn America". He's cursing us, justifiably in view of Christian belief, not claiming divine retribution.

And the idea that we regard the victims of our actions with less concern than we show for ourselves is indisputable.

So again, I wonder why reasonable people would feel the need to disavow this.

Wright is Obama's spiritual mentor not the guest pastor who gave last Sunday's sermon. I have never heard Bishop Blake at West Angeles preach 'god damn America' so it isn't something 'BLACK people say.'

I actually cringe when I listen to Wright speak. But how old are these clips? Playing them over and over again seems a bit unfair.

Unfair in the sense that the media seems so preoccupied with the provocative nature of the film, they don't see any responsibility in pointing out when this event took place.

The reason I'm skeptical that this will have a huge impact is this - if you drew a venn diagram of the people who are offended enough by Wright to not vote for Obama, I suspect you would find it overlaps pretty neatly with the people who aren't going to vote for a democrat anyways.

Basically, it crushes him in sectors where he already had no chance anyways. Could be wrong though - depends on how the not particularly religious but go to church on a weekly basis crowd reacts.

I think Obama's got to walk a fine line here, but if anyone can do it, he's the guy.

First, he can't just 'throw Wright under the bus.' You don't do that to people you've known for 20 years, unless you find out one day that they've been swindling little old ladies or something.

Jeremiah Wright is the same guy he's been. Obama obviously thinks a great deal of him. He can't pretend all that history means nothing, without coming across as completely insincere.

He's got to stand behind Wright as a friend, and as a pastor with a powerful Christian witness. But he does have to disavow, in the strongest terms, Wright's playing of the victim card, of Black identity politics, of the language of division, of us v. them.

He's got to be able to say - accurately - that in his experience as a member of Wright's congregation, this was not something Wright was harping on every Sunday, or he wouldn't have been there.

If it WAS something Wright was harping on every Sunday, that's the point where we Dems throw Obama under the bus, and go with Clinton as the nominee. After all, Fox has bought a set of Wright's sermon tapes - it's too late for bullshit.

Obama's going to have a hard time explaining that I take to be the truth, namely that his relationship with Trinity has been a bit cynical from the beginning.... associating with a very large, influential, local church with black nationalist overtones was a clear political asset....

I hope you're correct. The way I figure it either:

(1) Your statement is true and Obama doesn't really believe in Wright's crap (though is wife appears to have taken it more to heart). In that case I'm not terribly afraid of having him be President, but I also kinda don't see the point to his candidacy - it sure as heck aint "hope" or "change" or "a new kind of politics."

(2) Your statment is wishful thinking, Obama really does share some large fraction of Wright's worldview, and there's no way in heck I want him to be President.


So if Obama wins, best case we get lucky and get a two-faced, cynical, corrupt political hack, worst case we get a far-left America-hating nutjob.

If Clinton wins, we're guaranteed to get the two-faced, cynical, corrupt political hack. Sounds like she's the better bet (where "better" means "sucks a bit less awfully").

For months I dismissed all the rhetoric about Obama's preacher and mentor as political garbage, however now after seeing and hearing this hateful nut recently on MSM I've learned my lesson about so easily dismissing these investigative articles. Hearing Rev. Wright was very concerning. He makes Hitler sound like a choir boy.

If Obama really deplores this hate, why has he stayed with this nut for 20 years? However I'm willing to hear Obama out before being hasty.

When are Obama supporters going to realize this election isn't going to be run by crying "racism." Eventually that's going to be a turn off.

It's not Obama being black that is the turn off, by the way, not even to the white working class folks in states like Pennsylvania, Ohio and West Virginia that many liberal elitists routinely call "bigots" on this blog. The turn off is concepts White Guilt, Afrocentrism, American Imperialism, and the idea that America's soul is broken and White America must atone for sins committed against black and brown people everywhere. Whether one agrees with that or not, that is a turn off to the sort of people Obama (or anyone) needs to win over in order to be elected.

He makes Hitler sound like a choir boy.

You have to be fucking kidding. Someone, PLEASE, point to something that Wright says, exact words, and explain why it is racist.

Obama is right to handle this non-issue in a calm and unruffled way. He should not feed the media beast by making big speeches or gestures on what is basically a very small story which will be forgotten in 2 weeks time at the most. By refusing to overreact, Obama makes clear that he is not a weak liberal, and also that there is nothing of substance to the story. The worst thing he could do would be to give this story more publicity than it deserves.

Rev. Dr. Jeremiah A. Wright, Jr. isn't some tangential figure in Obama's life -- he's the closest thing Obama has found to a surrogate father to fill the Dad-shaped hole in his soul left by his bigamous father's abandonment of him at age 2. And this isn't ancient history: the Obama family gave $22,500 to Wright's Church in 2006, the last year for which he have tax returns, making it the biggest beneficiary of their donations that year.

And it's not just Wright's anti-white stuff, the Farrakhan stuff, and the Gadaffi stuff that makes Wright radioactive, it's the far left stuff. When they first met, Obama grilled Wright to make sure his church was far enough left for Obama.

Look, I explained all this stuff over and over for a year now, and I recommended that Obama do a Sistah Souljah on Wright if he wants to remain viable for President. If he'd done it in 2007, it would be ancient history by now, but, no, the media let him slide by until the worst possible moment.

In many ways, Obama is closer to Wright than McCain is to Hagee-- but then Obama didn't seek out Wright's political endorsement, as McCain did with Hagee.

Basically, the two should cancel each other out-- though they may not, and even if they did it would be sort of too bad, since Hagee is, in my opinion, much more offensive.

"God damn America" should not be any more offensive than saying "God did damn America," which is essentially what Hagee (and not only Hagee!) has said about 9/11, Katrina, and other natural disasters (i.e., they happened b/c God was mad at us for gays and feminists etc). When you consider what Wright is citing as reasons for this damnation compared to Hagee et al, it's considerably less offensive. But since those other guys have been fixtures on the national scene and Wright and his ilk have not, I'm guessing the press won't play it like that-- certainly not without help (so get on it, Obama campaign!).

On the cable shows, such as Bill O'Reilly, there was a warning before the tapes were aired that they contained extremely offensive language, so viewers might need to leave the room, etc.

I think for most Fox viewers, hearing the phrase "God damn America" is sufficient to reduce them to a quivering mass of jell-o.

When are Obama supporters going to realize this election isn't going to be run by crying "racism."

When are Clinton supporters going to realize that she's lost?

When are Clinton supporters going to stop trying to make John McCain the next president of the United States?

One little side note on this - it's not clear that everyone means the same thing by saying "throw him under the bus." It's obvious that personally denouncing him would be a disaster - it wouldn't appease the people most up in arms and it would appear weak and dishonest.

He has, of course, already denounced the substance of what was said, and that was probably necessary. I think there is more he could say in this vein, and possibly even use is in a positive way.

But there is an issue between those extremes which hasn't been sufficiently discussed. Should the minister resign his very small, symbolic role with the campaign? I'm sure to a mathematical certainty that he will if asked. I can see advantages and disadvantages. I think he ultimately will, though I'm not sure it's necessary.

On balance, I have to agree that you want to err on the side of not giving in to the right wing noise machine. People analogize this with Ferraro, and I think there is an analogy, but maybe not the one people are making. If Ferraro had shut her mouth after the initial remarks, Clinton probably wouldn't have asked her to resign. It was only when she continued yapping her big mouth that she had to go.

By the same token, if the minister, now retired, lays low, I think Obama's distancing will be enough. If he goes the Ferrero route, though, and starts going on national TV and defending his remarks - well, that would be a problem for Obama, and one that would require more from him.

But I don't think this guys, for all of his incendiary remarks,* doesn't seem to be quite the loose cannon that Ferraro is, and I imagine he will lay low for a while.

*and hey, I'll say right out front that I agree with SOME of his remarks, at least; personally, part of me would like Obama to be a little more like him. I sure as heck don't find his views 1/10th as unacceptable as Hagee's. But, of course, that would, indeed, make him unelectable.

He didn't want to appear to be a member of the community on the South Side; he wanted to BE a member of that community, and he found common ground in universal principles, albeit Christian-specific language.

In your view, is believing that the US government deliberately created the AIDS virus so it could use it to kill off blacks and gays part of the "universal principles" or part of the "Christian-specific language"?

fill the Dad-shaped hole in his soul left by his bigamous father's abandonment of him

LOL, SS, you should be writing for Worldnet Daily. Get over there now and apply. This is great stuff.

Obama's done. You can stay in denial if that makes you feel better, but it won't change reality.

This goes to his judgment. He is unfit to lead others when he closely associates with someone like Wright for 20 years and praises him as his "spiritual advisor."

He only denounces when it's politically convenient to do so. It's obviously cynical and false, and only the most credulous supporters believe the denouncing.

Good night and good luck. But Obama's done.

Obama lied.
His mystique died.

the media let him slide by until the worst possible moment.

This is the worst possible moment?

After he's basically secured the Democratic nomination, but with several months to go before the convention and more than seven months before the general election?

Steve - you keep telling us how smart white people are, but keep demonstrating something far different.

In a sane world, the Wright story would be as much small potatoes as Hagee has been for McCain

McCain has met with Hagee once. Obama's been going to Wright's church every week for twenty years. That's about 1040 Sundays. Add a few for holidays, weddings and christenings, subtract a bunch for Sundays when Obama was in Washington, and Obama's bag of potatoes is still about 1000x as big as McCains.

It's hard to call him a closet muslim while at the same time bashing him over his closeness to his Christian preacher.

Except that said Christian preacher is buds with Louis Farrakhan, and the TUCC website says Muslims are welcome after a two-week orientation.

I've also been pointing out that Rev. Dr. Wright is an exhibitionist and may be intentionally sabotaging Obama's campaign by doing things like inventing a lifetime achievement award to give to Farrakhan just last November. You'll notice that tapes of Mike Huckabee's old sermons conveniently (for Huckabee) disappeared, but Wright's old sermons remained proudly on sale on his church's website.

Pure speculation, but it wouldn't surprise me if Wright wants to go down in history as the man who showed that a black man can't get elected President. It would confirm Wright's lifelong claims of the overwhelming power and pervasiveness of white racism and stoke his ego.

If anybody is interested in learning the facts about the Wright-Obama connection, here are all my postings on it:

http://isteve.blogspot.com/search/label/Rev.%20Dr.%20Jeremiah%20A.%20Wright%20Jr.

I would say this gets a little touchy in the general election in as much as that if the GOP plays the 'angry black man card' too prominently, they risk being more or less permanantly branded as a bunch of racists.

Chuckle.
As if they haven't been already?
A party that never breaks 10% of the black vote really has little to lose on this score.

Let me say at the outset that I vehemently disagree and strongly condemn the statements that have been the subject of this controversy. I categorically denounce any statement that disparages our great country or serves to divide us from our allies. I also believe that words that degrade individuals have no place in our public dialogue, whether it's on the campaign stump or in the pulpit. In sum, I reject outright the statements by Rev. Wright that are at issue.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/barack-obama/on-my-faith-and-my-church_b_91623.html

the TUCC website says Muslims are welcome after a two-week orientation.

Oh no! Muslims are welcome!

Obama = Osama.

Clearly.

BTW, Obama has a response at The Huffington Post.

He comes pretty close to the "throw him under the bus" side, closer than I would have liked, personally.

I'm agree that equating Obama's Wright problem with McCain's Hagee problem doesn't make sense. Obama obviously has a problem, the question is what should he do about it.

I think yazzel makes a good point about what Obama should try to do first. If that doesn't work, then he'll need to explain his "personal journey" in a way that doesn't require completely abandoning Wright, while also reassuring people that he does not share his views at all, and points out the guy's good qualities, etc.

It won't be easy.

SoCal:

Absolutely nothing anybody says here is going to have any effect on the presidential election. Let's just get that out of the way you can you can stop your whining and toughen up.

Obama should indeed pull a Sista Soulja. Go speak at his church in the next couple of weeks (or another majority black church) and repudiate Wright's views in the strongest terms. The best thing that could possibly happen to Obama is if this causes Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, Wright and Louise Farrakhan to rebuke him sharply in the days following. More importantly, nobody in the mainstream will question again whether Barack Obama is the "black candidate" or secretly holds radical Afrocentric views.

As a Clinton supporter part of me hopes he won't take this advice, since this will persist as a liability to him otherwise. For his own good and that of the party that's what he should do.

Payback's a bitch, isn't it?

Since you're desperately trying to smear McCain with this Hagee nonsense, you're not in a position to complain when the same thing is done to Obama with regard to his association with Wright.

This is the worst possible moment?

Actually, it's really the only time the Clinton campaign could strategically push it. Before this, they couldn't tell folks about his Christian pastor because they were trying to gt mileage out out of the muslim thing. But with the 60 Minutes dustup and the resulting media coverage - and the fact he keeps winning - the muslim thing wasn't working and polls about his faith were going Obama's way.

The south side of Chicago is a mess. It is one of the most racially segregated places in the country. It struggles for its problems to be recognized. Many people from the North side of Chicago have never been to the south side. Meanwhile we have a local government that is smooth at co-opting all of the different racial groups, but is very lax on really providing for this side of the city. It's a mess, and a heartbreaking one. This is the reason for the "radicalism" and "afrocentrism" of the church institutions there.

political content that many white Americans might just not find objectionable but frightening. To be the first black president means you can't really be black.

To be a president of any color you can't have political views that a large fraction of voters find objectionable and frightening. Your second sentence is only true if "not believing the US government is selling crack in the ghettos" means "not being really black".

Chuckle.
As if they haven't been already?
A party that never breaks 10% of the black vote really has little to lose on this score.

That's true but they still have a long way to go in terms of losing support among other ethnic minorities and whites who don't like being branded as racists. That's why the GOP has been resorting to dog-whistles for the last 40 years.

Well, I personally don't know anything about this Rev. Wright fellow and haven't bothered to hunt down his sermons, but the indications gleaned from the comments of those who have done so is this is "pretty bad" for poor St. Barack.

I'm also glad to see that poor Matt is---finally---starting to make an attempt to rejoin the Reality Based Community. I guess a little late is better than never.

"It's hard to call him a closet muslim while at the same time bashing him over his closeness to his Christian preacher."

Except that said Christian preacher is buds with Louis Farrakhan, and the TUCC website says Muslims are welcome after a two-week orientation.

Posted by Ralph Phelan | March 14, 2008 4:57 PM

Wow. A now low.

You a Clinton supporter?

Sweet. Steve the racist scumbag Sailer is here. That's awesome.

I just read Obama's Huffington Post response. Its pretty good. Lets hope its enough.

I'm an Obama supporter but I agree with commentators who say that there are plenty of people, such as White working class folks, who would desert Obama in the general election if they associate him with the "Wright stuff".

Let's just get that out of the way you can you can stop your whining and toughen up.

Ahh, Timmy. I see months of sour grapes hasn't made you any more charming.

Obama should indeed pull a Sista Soulja.

First of all, the last person he should take advice from is you.

Second of all, he has already condemned his pastor's remarks.

Third of all, Hillary has lost. Moreover, she's lost to a man her campaign and surrogates have tried their darndest to paint as an inexperienced, conservative Muslim who was schooled in a madrassa!!!, who uses words!!! in his speeches, some that aren't his own and is only beating her because of his race. So it's doubly hysterical to watch you complain about false charges of racism. Obviously, no one wants to lose to someone like that, so it's no wonder you guys are so damned bitter.

Addtionally, it's rather classic to watch you accuse someone else of whining.

Lack of self-awareness is sometimes comical, sometimes clinical.

Mark @ 4:25

Great post.

If Obama says something like what you said, I'll be pretty much satisfied.

But if he doesn't, I'll be forced to assume that he still really does share at least some of the radicalism.

Of course, if he does, he's gonna lose abunch of support in the more radical parts of the black community for being a "sellout."

Yeah, the Huff post response is just about perfect. Someone said it went too far ... eh, in a perfect universe, perhaps, but really politically it struck the perfect note, without personally denouncing the former pastor, which would have been a mistake.

This will continue to be an issue only if weak Democrats, afraid of their own shadow, or disingenuous Clintonoids, allow it to be.

Do you think blacks are voting for him at 90%+ margins because they think he'll govern as a technocratic neoliberal green? Blacks presume that there will be some liberation theology and African nationalism mixed in, a few cabinet positions for race careerists, etc. and he'll in fact be betraying that constituency if he doesn't follow through.

Ralph,

He doesn't phrase it just that way - I, too, kind of wish he did - but, if you look at the Huff post statement, he substantively goes at least that far in terms of denouncing the remarks themselves.

The Obama statement at The Huffington Post (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/barack-obama/on-my-faith-and-my-church_b_91623.html) is much better than his original response.

The important thing for him now is that it is true. Obama has staked his reputation on his not having heard these statements from Wright until the start of his presidential campaign - i.e. 2007: "When these statements first came to my attention, it was at the beginning of my presidential campaign." I imagine that there will be reporters trying to determine (1) whether Obama was in Church during any of these sermons, particularly the September 16, 2001 "chickens coming home to roost" sermon, (2) whether Obama was confronted with these statements by nutcase Alan Keyes during the 2004 Senate campaign.

Do you think blacks are voting for him at 90%+ margins because they think he'll govern as a technocratic neoliberal green? Blacks presume that there will be some liberation theology and African nationalism mixed in, a few cabinet positions for race careerists, etc. and he'll in fact be betraying that constituency if he doesn't follow through.

Well, sure, it's commonly known blacks have poor or selfish reasons for supporting black candidates but white folks are enlightened enough to vote for white people based on the issues.

And just for the record, your anthropological musing needs to include "the" in front of "blacks". That puts distance between you and the behavior you are deploring.

Ephus is correct. As much as I like the Huff Post response, it does box him in to some extent; if there are a bunch of earlier videos along the same lines, he will have a problem.

The important thing for him now is that it is true.

When Obama was reassuring the Jews about his church's award to Farakhan, Obama said it was Farakhan's work with prison ministries and convict rehabilitation that was being honored. I went to the TUCC website and read the article about the awards ceremony in their church bulletin. Wright was quoted as admiring Farakhans deep and insightful view of race relations in America. The words "convict" and "prison" appeared nowhere in the article, nor any related matters.

IOW that time he was lying through his teeth.

I really hope Ygelias and Sailer are right that the Obama's association with this church is purely cynical, but I really see no reason to even take the chance.

Matt,

Why do you choose to give legs to bullshit stories like this? It's the same thing the MSM has been guilty of for all these years. You're doing Hillary and the creeps that surround her a favor by putting this stuff in the limelight.

Ephus notes:

"Obama has staked his reputation on his not having heard these statements from Wright until the start of his presidential campaign - i.e. 2007: "When these statements first came to my attention, it was at the beginning of my presidential campaign.""

Uh-oh...

ABC reported yesterday that the "God Damn America" soundbite is from 2003:

"The government gives them the drugs, builds bigger prisons, passes a three-strike law and then wants us to sing 'God Bless America.' No, no, no, God damn America, that's in the Bible for killing innocent people," he said in a 2003 sermon. "God damn America for treating our citizens as less than human. God damn America for as long as she acts like she is God and she is supreme."

We know that Obama gave $27,500 to Wright's church in 2005-06 alone.

You can count on Steve Sailer to bring slime to any issue he touches. My point, which he quotes, is that it better be true that Obama only LEARNED of Wright's "chickens coming home to roost" September 16, 2001 sermon or the 2003 sermon in 2007. Sailer then contends that the fact that Obama gave money to the church in 2006 is a problem. No, it is not!

If Obama only learned about the sermons in 2007, it is not a problem gave money in 2006.

Just wondering...but what is it that the good Reverend has said that's not true? That 9/11 was blowback? That Bill Clinton put more black folks in prison than any President before him for minor drug offenses and made more black folks destitute with the implementation of welfare reform? That the U.S. underwrites State Terrorism against the Palestinians? ALL TRUE! Shocking! My God- and this crazy ol' nigra has sway over that nice, clean, articulate, light-skinned Senator with the funny name! No wonder he swore on the Koran! No wonder his wife pisses on the flag! Oh, Lordy, Lordy!

Yes, it's understood that you can't utter these truths anywhere near a microphone in present-day America. But, that doesn't mean you should have to ben over backwards and take it up the ass from the turds that have shred our Constituition, made money off the blood of American soldiers and Iraqi civilians and have sold out America 'cause it's good for Halliburton, and the Zionist power configuration.

Howard Dean is on the big picture; not sure if the rainbow religions thing is going to work, though":

Embracing the Faithful By Laurie Goodstein, March 13/14 New York Times


With a Pentecostal minister at the helm, the committee planning the Democratic National Convention in Denver this August is determined to demonstrate that the party has overcome its squeamishness about religion, and that its big tent will accommodate religious believers.

For the first time, the Democratic convention will be kicked off by an interfaith prayer service....And in another first, there will be a caucus during the convention explicitly for “people of faith,”....

Leading these efforts is the Rev. Leah D. Daughtry, chief executive of the convention. Ms. Daughtry (daughter of Herbert Daughtry, a minister in Brooklyn) flies from Denver to Washington every other weekend to lead her small Pentecostal congregation.

Ms. Daughtry announced in a conference call with members of the religious news media on Wednesday that convention committees had been seeded with religious leaders like the Rev. Tony Campolo, an evangelical author; Imam Abdul Malik Mujahid, chairman of the Council of Islamic Organizations of Greater Chicago; and Bishop Vashti McKenzie, the first woman to be a bishop in the African Methodist Episcopal Church....

Face,

Well, sure, it's commonly known blacks have poor or selfish reasons for supporting black candidates but white folks are enlightened enough to vote for white people based on the issues.

He didn't say anything about whites. The point is that much of the support for black candidates by black voters is motivated by racial identification and racial self-interest rather than by beliefs about what's in the best interests of the country or constituency as a whole. The fact that such motives may also be common among whites does not alter this fact. Is it your position that it's okay for black voters to favor black candidates on the basis of race, but not okay for white voters to favor white candidates on the basis of race?

Look, Wright, who is all of 66 is not suddenly going senile as Obama might wish you to believe. Wright has always been Wright, going back at least to 1984 when he went with Farrakhan to visit arch-terrorist Gadaffi in Libya. When Obama was shopping for a Church to join to further his political ambitions in the later 1980s (because respectable black people on the South Side wouldn't follow an agnostic like Obama), he met dozens of black preachers. He picked Wright out in part because was radical enough for him -- he interrogated Wright over whether his church was too bourgeois -- but Wright's "Audacity of Hope" sermon proved his radicalism to Obama, so he joined up. See pp. 274-295 of "Dreams from My Father: A Story of Race and Inheritance."

In the general election, it won't be a question of a handful of soundbites -- by then the nature of Wright's sermons since 1988 will be thoroughly documented.

I've been patiently explaining these facts to you all for a year now. If we get stuck with a President who is the second coming of Gen. Buck Turgidson of Dr. Strangelove, well, I warned you over and over that Obama had a big problem and I was met with ignorant abuse.

Ralph, you have heard that the Republican Party is having fund raising problems and massive theft, right? You're probably not gonna end up being paid this cycle. Best wait until next year.

All of you crying doom are, well, stupid. That is all.

I don't just have a quippy joke to make about this [...] this Wright stuff out there in bad faith

Wright stuff?

Bad faith?

Do bad puns count as quippy jokes?

Why wouldn't Obama give money to the church, even if he'd heard Wright say all kinds of objectionable things? The church does charity work on the south side of Chicago. It doesn't have a special Kill White People Fund.

By the way, can anyone point me to the place where Wright actually says anything bigoted against white people?

The priest at my parish was arrested for trying to give a blowjob to an undercover cop at a "gay" park. Hopefully none of the other parishoners ever run for office.

"Does your attendence at Mass signify that you condone giving blowjobs to undercover cops?"

That said, I do see a distinction between your private, spiritual decisions about going to church and the public, political decisions about courting influential religous figures. I.e going to a local church that has a naughty priest is different than seeking the political endorsement from a naughty priest

I really hope Ygelias and Sailer are right that the Obama's association with this church is purely cynical, but I really see no reason to even take the chance.

I would say that Obama's religiosity in general is almost entirely cynical and opportunistic. He "got religion" mainly in order to advance his political ambitions, rather than as a result of any deeply-held commitment to religious principles or values. His favored brand of Christianity is the wishy-washy liberal kind, a secular, progressive ethics dressed up in religious language. He shows no real commitment to any distinctively Christian values or principles or claims of truth. It's all about making himself more appealing to voters.

If this is how they plan on swift boating Obama, it is pathetic. His minister? What I would hope Obama would do, what he is positioned to do, is to turn the spotlight on the crewe of cretins, the Bush hardcore, who salivate to this type of thing. Gather up the Steven Sailor remarks, racist comments flung with abandon, go to Powerline, Redstate, Malkin, get basketfulls of bushwa - the slimier, the more neo-Nazi the better -- go through the transcipts of the Limbaughs, the Savages, all the apeshit crazies, and throw it back into the face of anybody from the respectable media that will tiptoe into this. The lesson from Kerry is strike quickly and mercilessly.

We already have the talking points from Hagee and the dimwit McCain embraced in Ohio - mix it up thoroughly, and present it as a choice - do you really want this cast of retards deciding, once again, who rules this country? Really? As the oil climbs through the roof and the banks fall?

I have a feeling the fun and games from the paranoid militia right will feed into the appetite Obama has tapped to get out of this syndrome. I didn't believe it before, but the victories in the primaries, and the amazing turnout for the Dems, continues. We'll see. Kurz will be the entering vector for the anti-Obama shit, as usual, so if the people around Obama are clued in, they will concentrate on him.

It's not a matter of whether Obama "should" be "required" to renounce his preacher.

The fact is, millions and millions of Americans have supported Obama because we thought he was the opposite of Rev. Wright. Now we're not so sure.

"I've been patiently explaining these facts to you all for a year now. If we get stuck with a President who is the second coming of Gen. Buck Turgidson of Dr. Strangelove, well, I warned you over and over that Obama had a big problem and I was met with ignorant abuse."

Call Sailer names if you want, but you have to admit he was way ahead of the curve on this one. Maybe The Atlantic should hire him as staff blogger.

I really hope Ygelias and Sailer are right that the Obama's association with this church is purely cynical, but I really see no reason to even take the chance.

Ralph, this statement is astonishing.

Why take the CHANCE that anyone has the correct opinion on the subject, go do your own reseach, and find the answers you're looking for.

(2) whether Obama was confronted with these statements by nutcase Alan Keyes during the 2004 Senate campaign.

I don't think you'll have to worry much about that campaign - it consisted mainly of Alan Keyes ranting insanely and singing showtunes. And, no, I am not making that up.

It should be noted that there are white members at the church. I wish they would take an in depth look at the church in terms of demographics and charity work.

My problem with this discussion is that it looks at the church as a monolith.
Another problem is that this interpretation of Obama joining the church for cynical reasons seems to approach the level of mind reading. Race is a very powerful identity. It is not like a coat where you take it off and put in the closet. So to say that Obama did this to be very black seems very silly especially since he joined the church in 1985. Ten years before he ran for political office.

One can associate with people even when you disagree with their views. who you find to be disagreable. I am sure many of you have friends who are racists and use the n-word so please do not pretend that your hands are not unclean.

Obama's going to have a hard time explaining THAT I take to be the truth, namely that his relationship

Typo: the "that" should be "what."

You're right about everything else.

I'm increasingly sure this will blow over - maybe even if there are a lot more videos out there. But let's say I'm wrong, a thought occurs ...

People, myself included, have been saying that Clinton has been staying in the race hoping for a big Obama screwup. Let's say this is it, just for the sake of argument.

Problem: Clinton has not put herself in a good position to take advantage of it:

(a) Any Obama supporters upset about the minister will be more likely to stick with Obama, given how distasteful Clinton has made herself as an option over the last two weeks,

(b) And two, she has damaged herself for the general election if she does somehow manage to get the nomination.

So in retrospect, her recent strategy has been self defeating, even assuming an Obama screwup.

I have a feeling they are not the kind of white people Obama is going to have trouble with in this election. We're talking about very liberal people who would vote for Obama no matter what, and are probably supporting him already to the person.

Micheline:

Interesting you'd point out that race is a powerful identity but fail to mention Obama is half-white. Going to this church was a way for Obama to associate himself with the black part of his identity.

(2) whether Obama was confronted with these statements by nutcase Alan Keyes during the 2004 Senate campaign.

I don't think you'll have to worry much about that campaign - it consisted mainly of Alan Keyes ranting insanely and singing showtunes. And, no, I am not making that up.

Well, it's nice to know that Matt and all the Obamaphiles on this list are strongly supporting such a "battle-tested" candidate, totally experienced in defeating tough, well-funded Republican opponents...

I am not saying that Wright is anti-white or anything. One can be very critical of white privilege without being anti-white.

So hopefully we can put this silly republican smear claims that Obama is a muslim. Well how can he be a muslim if he has a pastor!
This is all the republicans have after sinking this economy after 8 years.

So hopefully we can put this silly republican smear claims that Obama is a muslim. Well how can he be a muslim if he has a pastor!
This is all the republicans have after sinking this economy after 8 years.

Another problem is that this interpretation of Obama joining the church for cynical reasons seems to approach the level of mind reading.

My interpretation is based on the evidence of his statements and actions, which show no sign of any serious religious commitment.

Race is a very powerful identity. It is not like a coat where you take it off and put in the closet.

But I thought you wanted people to look beyond their race. Are you sure you want to encourage white Americans to view their whiteness as "a very powerful identity?"

So to say that Obama did this to be very black seems very silly especially since he joined the church in 1985. Ten years before he ran for political office.

Men and women with serious aspirations to high political office are planning for it their entire adult lives. Bill Clinton famously planned to become president since childhood. Obama certainly knew in 1985 that being religious (or, rather, being seen to be religious, making a show of being religious) is virtually a necessity in American politics, especially for black politicians. And Obama's particular history, his time in Indonesia, his middle name and his other associations with Islam made it especially important for him to cultivate a public identity as a Christian.

Tim K,

Obama is half-white but anyone were to see him walking down the street without knowing who he is, one would think that he is black.

I knida blame Obama for the mess he is in because he always used that Kumbaya talk instead of addressing the race issue head on including his church.

Tim K,

Obama is half-white but anyone were to see him walking down the street without knowing who he is, one would think that he is black.

I knida blame Obama for the mess he is in because he always used that Kumbaya talk instead of addressing the race issue head on including his church.

Couple thoughts:

1. This couldn't come at a better time for Obama. The story was inevitably going to be prominent in a news cycle or two during the race. For whatever reason, it has cropped up five/six weeks before a primary that Obama isn't supposed to win anyway. And it has been competing with a salacious sex scandal out of NY.

2. America has a complicated relationship with wacky religious leaders; we're squeamish about banishing them from national discourse. I think that's why Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell remained relevant in a way that Ward Churchill did not after each made extremely controversial comments about 9/11. For whatever that's worth . . .

3. Obama seems to be deliberately haunting left-leaning media outlets in responding to the Wright controversy (Huffington Post this afternoon, Countdown tonight). I can't figure out why.

Tim K - The turn off is concepts White Guilt, Afrocentrism, American Imperialism, and the idea that America's soul is broken and White America must atone for sins committed against black and brown people everywhere.

Amen! And the "Woe is Us!!! shit evidently isn't working too well with Hispanics and Asians that are supposed to consider themslves helpless dependents while deferring, as blacks tell them, to the higher moral authority of careerist black victimhood claimants.
************************
I think the MSM and Dems have to stop being so cowardly and panicky about the GOP smears. Start fighting back for a change.
Posted by Kate

Except that all this stuff is coming from Clintonistsas, not Republicans. All we Republicans are doing is breaking out the beer and popcorn and watching the cancer of identity politics work it's wonders within the Democratic Party.

White Guilt, Afrocentrism, American Imperialism, and the idea that America's soul is broken???

Only a cadre of influential Jews and Gentiles on the Hard Left, plus loud-mothed black fools influenced by them believe that shit. You can't cram that down even Progressives like Ferraro's throats, or patriotic liberals. That puts the Party at war until Wright is fully repudiated, which will anger Obama's hard Left and racist black following. Yes as sure, the feminist "woman entitlement" notion that Dems owed it to women after 200 years to make one President is also foundering in the rocks amidst much older female anger.
****************
"A party that never breaks 10% of the black vote really has little to lose on this score."

That's true but they still have a long way to go in terms of losing support among other ethnic minorities and whites who don't like being branded as racists. That's why the GOP has been resorting to dog-whistles for the last 40 years.
Posted by BFR

No, what Dems have to fear is whites, particularly white males, plus Latinos becoming completely fed up with black and Jewish activists demanding they do exactly as demanded, or they will "BE BRANDED RACISTS WITHIN THE PARTY!!".

Or women in the Democratic Party told that their gender must always be subservient to race entitlement in identity politics....and if they disagree, as staunch liberal Democrat Ferraro did ...they are racist, racist, racist!!


Like the boy that cried wolf too many times, use of race and gender cards to emotionally blackmail or threaten the careers of recalcitrant students, union members, non-black men has been overused. It has lost it's edge. Same in cities where Latinos are told in now-minority black districts that they must vote for the black candidate against the white or Latino one or they show they are racist - all while blacks always go tribal and vote for any black candidate over the white or Latino one by 90% vote margins...

The law has gotten much harder on those that seek to punish or muzzle people for non-PC views or expression that has nothing to do with job performance. And restrictions on patronage jobs, And, with the plethora of PACs, NGOs, active associations now available as an alternative if some card card is thrown or Jesus Fundie card is played, little harm exists in switching Parties or leaving them all together. And few people, mainly blacks, cling to the "Our Party Lever straight down the ticket voting" anymore.

I've been very dispirited over this Wright business. Wright's rhetoric is way too over-the-top for the mainstream who will decide the election. Americans don't want to hear about blowback and the evils of racism. I'm an atheist and couldn't care less if people see Jesus as black or white, but on the other hand, Jesus was King of the Jews. I trust that Wright did well by the people of the South Side, but he strikes me as a rank ideologue. Of course it wouldn't matter if Wright were white, but there you have it.

Obama's HuffPo statement is quite good, but there's not much he can say that will overcome the shocking impact of the vids making the rounds. I'm a strong Obama supporter, and this looks like bad news to me.

Lucy:

In this case "over-the-top" is an understatement. Barack Obama goes to a church where the pastor says Jesus Christ was a "poor black man" in a country controlled by "rich white people." First of all, since when are people in Palestine/Israel considered black? Second of all, since when is it acceptable to lump all white people into one category so that the US govt and the Roman Empire are seen as the exact same thing: Rich White People ? This is paranoid, racist, crypto-marxist propoganda. Why would Barack Obama even belong to a church like this? Or have a close relationship with a pastor who expresses these opinions, for so many years? The statements we have seen from him are obviously not isolated, they are his views. Why does Obama have any relationship with him at any level?

Barack Obama - the candidate who supposedly "transcends race" - belongs to a church, The Trinity United Church of Christ, that describes itself this way:


We are a congregation which is Unashamedly Black and Unapologetically Christian... Our roots in the Black religious experience and tradition are deep, lasting and permanent. We are an African people, and remain "true to our native land," the mother continent, the cradle of civilization. God has superintended our pilgrimage through the days of slavery, the days of segregation, and the long night of racism. It is God who gives us the strength and courage to continuously address injustice as a people, and as a congregation. We constantly affirm our trust in God through cultural expression of a Black worship service and ministries which address the Black Community.

He didn't say anything about whites. The point is that much of the support for black candidates by black voters is motivated by racial identification and racial self-interest rather than by beliefs about what's in the best interests of the country or constituency as a whole. The fact that such motives may also be common among whites does not alter this fact. Is it your position that it's okay for black voters to favor black candidates on the basis of race, but not okay for white voters to favor white candidates on the basis of race?

Here's the differece, asshat: black folks have been voting for white folks for president the entire time they've been permitted to participate in the system. (And I thank you for that, kind suh.)

Suddenly, because they support a black candidate there is some nefarious racial uprising or ridiculous quid pro quo taking place. Because there is no fucking way they could think they were operating in the best interests of America by voting for a black man. I mean, who could be that dumb?

Meanwhile the subtext of the Clinton campaign, the reason she should be awarded the nomination despite losing to the black man, is because "blue collar workers" (polite way of saying "uneducated racists") won't vote for the black man.

If you can't see the difference, it's because you don't want to.

I agree that Steve Sailer is informative and ahead of the curve on this one. I read his blog regularly, and I think that its often interesting, even though I vehemently disagree with his political views.

The tone on his blog, however, seems to be one of rejoicing that this story is finally getting picked up by the MSM. He definitely seems interested in dredging up whatever stories and facts that he can to sabotage Obama's campaign.

Tim K:

The history and culture of black churches tells me that the description of the Trinity United Church of Christ is very similar in sentiment to the majority of other black churches in this country.

The church was a place of solace for black Americans throughout tough times in our nation's history.

So before you jump to any conclusions, you should study this some more.

Your black bus driver or the Roto-Rooter black dude fixing your toilet likely share the same pov as Reverend Wright. When you grow up in a society where the color of your skin is regarded as some kind of dirty, evil malignancy by a wide range of white, oriental. latino, and jewish folk...you tend to develop a somewhat blunt and malevolent attitude towards the official bullshit we're all supposed to prattle on about. And, at least the man (Reverend Wright) is funny. I don't go to (Presbyterian) church but I'd much rather go to Trinity than any shit-stained chapel John Hagee is likely to be at.

If Obama sticks to the "crazy uncle" defense and even makes light of it- I think it'll serve him better in the long run than to get all bent out of shape about it as Steve Sailer or some other uptight whitebread motherfucker would have him be. I think he could even gain points with the superfluous masses if he laughed about this so-called pickle he's in.

Face,

Here's the differece, asshat: black folks have been voting for white folks for president the entire time they've been permitted to participate in the system.

So what, buttwipe? As I said, much of the support for black candidates by black voters is motivated by racial identification and racial self-interest rather than by beliefs about what's in the best interests of the country or constituency as a whole. Ignoring this fact isn't going to make it go away.

He's funny? How is he funny? Maybe he's funny in the sense that we all sometimes have laughed at racist, sexist, homophobic or otherwise prejudiced jokes, and maybe felt guilty about it after. But he's not funny in any appropriate sense. His views are crazy, over-the-top, out of the mainstream of this country, radical. And this isn't just some "supporter." This is the man who married Barack and Michelle Obama. This is the man who baptized his girls. This is a man who has a been a spiritual adviser for 20 years. That's a big deal.

If Jerry Falwell married John and Cindy McCain and baptized their children, and they went to his church for 20 years and Falwell got 20 pages in McCain's book talking about his influence on him, I think there'd be a lot of outrage on this blog and questions raised about what this says about John McCain's character and political views.

AKBY:

Whatever the history, that's not transcending race. That's not being a post-racial candidate.

Sorry, Mixner, I have to disagree-- I fail to see where blacks worked against their own interests in voting motivated by "racial identification and racial self interest" to a degree different than any other interest group.

First of all, voting for Obama over Clinton is a wash for the community-- their interests are served regardless of who wins. One could claim that their support for Jesse Jackson is an example, but that was no different than Republicans supporting Pat Buchanan: supporting a republican who pushed a certain agenda issue that they were concerned about in order to get more attention from mainstream candidates.

If things worked as you claimed, then Ken Blackwell would have won blacks by a large number in Ohio over Strickland, who would have served the people of Ohio and blacks much better. Instead, blacks went for Stickland, as was in line with their own interests and what was inarguably best for the state in that match-up.

So what, buttwipe? As I said, much of the support for black candidates by black voters is motivated by racial identification and racial self-interest rather than by beliefs about what's in the best interests of the country or constituency as a whole. Ignoring this fact isn't going to make it go away.

So when black voters vote for white folks, its for the best interests of the country but when they vote for other black folks, it's because of racial solidarity?

How about when they vote for a half-white / half-black guy? Half racial self-interest, half best for the country?

How about white folks voting for white folks? Self-interest or best for the country?

And why is the assumption here automatically that voting for the black man is not in the best interests of the country?

The history and culture of black churches tells me that the description of the Trinity United Church of Christ is very similar in sentiment to the majority of other black churches in this country.

Then that just suggests that black American Christianity in general is steeped in racial identity and racial politics. So much for "transcending race."

Not to mention such other delightful values as homophobia. Liberals have a really hard time being honest and forthright about black churches. They like to play up the "place of solace for oppressed people" angle, but conveniently ignore the deep social conservatism that is characteristic of black American Christianity.

Tim K, by "post racial candidate", it means he is a candidate seeking a wide base of support from across various segments of the electorate. It has nothing to do with how he, personally, views the importance of his own ethnic identity.

Obama's own Governor, Rod Blagojevich, was not the "ethnic candidate" in his race for governor, making it all about serving the interest of eastern european slavs, but I don't think anyone blinks twice at the fact that he attends an extremely ethnic Serbian Orthodox Church which hardly uses any English in its religious services and likely rather proudly discusses and encourages celebration of their Serbian ethnic ties. At the same time, his candidacy managed to be rather typical of most democratic political campaigns, relying on support that cut across ethnic and racial groups to bring together a large base of democrats to vote for him.

So when black voters vote for white folks, its for the best interests of the country but when they vote for other black folks, it's because of racial solidarity?

Er, no. When blacks vote on the basis of racial identity and racial self-interest, it's not in the best interests of the country. Ditto when whites do that.

If you tell whites that you approve of blacks voting on the basis of their racial identity and racial self-interest, you're not really in a position to complain about whites voting in the same way.

Mixner, that's all very glib, but I fail to see how blacks are voting in a way that is "not in the best interests of the country," any more than, say, Republicans voting for, say, McCain is "not in the best interests of the country." The only difference seems to be that you believe that voting for Obama is not in the best interests of the country, and I believe that voting for McCain is not in the best interests of the country. It's a bit unfair to say that people are just voting out of a self-destructive basis of "racial/party identity" just because we disagree with them.

In fact, I believe for various reasons that it's OKAY if you're a Republican to vote for the Republican because it serves the interests of your Republican-identity-based community. Ditto for voting for a Democrat because you're black and you know it will serve the interests of your own community better to vote that way. Saying that this vote is "not in the best interests of the country" is just admitting that YOU believe that the best interests of the country are different than what someone else is voting for. That might be true, or it might not be. But it's pretty self-righteous to assume that YOU know what's in the best interests of the country better than someone else, or that YOU vote what's in the best interests of the country, rather than voting for what's in YOUR own best interests.

It has nothing to do with how he, personally, views the importance of his own ethnic identity.

Of course, it has everything to do with how he himself views his own ethnic identity in this context. If he agrees with Jeremiah Wright's style and approach to Christianity enough to go to his church for 20 years and consider himself an adviser, then that says something about his judgment at the very least.

If Rod Blagojevich went to a Serb Orthodox church where his priest was denouncing America Imperialism in the former Yugoslavia, bombing Serbia and said Serbs were under the boot of hateful America, then I think people would have a problem with that.

This goes to Obama's judgment, character and view of race in America.

Where was the fuss when McCain called Washington D.C the 'city of Satan' which he did a week ago. Not a word of it has been discussed. He gets a free pass from the media and Obama is smared with association by a ranting pastor.

It's getting pretty hard to tell the difference between Republicans and Clinton supporters.

Kelly:

Get a grip. The only double-standard has been Obama's free pass from the press over the last year. Guess what: Break's over. Welcome to the Major Leagues.

Tyro,

Why do you keep posting comments addressed to me that respond to statements I didn't make and that you seem to have invented out of thin air?

Actually, Tim K, in that comparison between Blago and Obama, Obama would come out on top. Why? Because in Obama's case, his church would be advocating for strong ties and strong loyalty to an American community, and not a foreign country.

This is really demonstrating to be that lots of people in the US have a serious bug up their rectums when it comes to people who maintain a strong sense of ethnic identity outside of the "default culture."

I don't know which specific parish Blajoevich attends, though his religion is listed as "Serbian Orthodox." It's probably much like most other heavily ethnic parishes all over the USA, which encourage strong linguistic and cultural ties. But no one claims that Blago is an "ethnic candidate". Heck, no one demands that Blago be the candidate who "transcends ethnicity." It's just what he is. I don't see Obama has having trouble being a candidate who "transcends race" (translation: "not jesse jackson") while at the same time retaining a firm sense of an African American identity as an American. The problem, of course, is that just by looking at Obama, you can tell that he's not a White Protestant, so he has to jump over hurdles that most other people aren't asked to.

Face The Music:

It's getting difficult to tell the difference between Obama supporters and supporters of Jeremiah Wright.

How's that?

Tim K,

I don't see anything controversial about Trinity UCC's mission statement. Strong ethno-religious affinities are hardly unusual. I can also appreciate Wright's rage. But I don't like ideologues, and it pisses me off that Wright would sabotage Obama's candidacy with incendiary rhetoric like "God Damn America". And it pisses me off on a visceral level as well.

I'm not that concerned about Obama's relationship with Wright, but I am concerned about the electorate's relationship with this story. Ouch.

Tim K and Tyro:

I don't see how Obama belonging to a black church undermines his effort to transcend race in politics.

Both black AND white American Christianity are steeped in racial identity.

At least Obama is TRYING to transcend identity politics, which is more than I can say for Clinton, and others.

Mixner, I seem to be quoting from you directly.

If blacks are so motivated to vote against their own policy/economic interests in favor of "racial identity," how come they didn't all break for Ken Blackwell in the Ohio gubernatorial race? How is it that they're voting against the best interests of the country by supporting Obama? You're not providing any evidence that they are, you're just saying that supporting Obama is prima facie evidence that they're not acting in the interests of the USA. That's a pretty creepy thing for you to be saying.

Why has he had such a close relationship with a pastor who has things sorts of views? It's a legitimate question, so far unanswered.

AKBY, I don't see how it undermines his effort, either. But Tim K believes that "transcending race" == conform to white, middle-class protestant norms. And Obama is at a specific disadvantage by that standard since, just by looking at him, you can tell that he's not a white middle class protestant. For white candidates of whatever background, they can just put on a nice public face and everything else is considered just a "private matter."

these*

The problem is Obama and his team knew about Wright before he launched his campaign. They disinvited him from Obama's presidential announcement where he was scheduled to give the opening invocation - "because of the campaign’s apparent fear of criticism over Mr. Wright’s teachings, which some say are overly Afrocentric to the point of excluding whites."

Obama didn't go any farther at the time because Wright was his mentor and this mild rebuke lead to criticism in the African-American community, particularly from black religious leaders.

Wright's around the bend, but I have heard equally deplorable sermons in a variety of churches spanning most Christian denominations. (for those keeping score, I have never witnessed an inflammatory "sermon" in a synagogue or mosque and have never attended a LDS service) Wright's toxic because of the political content of his sermon whereas most crackpots stick to religious critiques of why god hates (noun) and (noun) is going to burn in hell forever. Most Christian denominations actively state bad things are going to happen to gays, Jews, atheists, etc. and that these groups are 'asking for it' but it is always because they have sinned or not accepted Jesus or some other religious region. Criticism of religious beliefs or religion in the US doesn't exist outside of academia, atheists writers, some parts of the left and the odd Jesuit. Political views on the other hand are seen as fair game.


The quote was pulled from this NYTimes article on the original Wright flap from last year
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/06/us/politics/06obama.html

Mixner, I seem to be quoting from you directly.

No, you're extracting short phrases from my posts, incorporating them into sentences of your own invention that make claims completely different to what I actually said in my posts, and then responding to those invented claims as if I had said them. I don't know whether you're being dishonest or simply careless, but either way you're misrepresenting what I wrote.

Or how about, at a minimum, not have a pastor for twenty years who thinks Jesus Christ was a black man in a country oppressed by white people, that America is an Empire that kills black and brown people without "batting an eye", the US govt sold crack in inner cities in a conspiracy to destroy the black community, created HIV in order to commit genocide against black people, do we detect a pattern here? The background on the website of his church is an outline of the continent of Africa. Is this an American church or an African church?

"region" is the MY approved spelling for reason.
I need to annunciate and enunciate more clearly.

Mixner, it seems to be like you're just upset that I made the logical inferences of your claims about how you think african-americans vote and then showed how your statements don't make any sense.

Tim K, I don't think you're a racist or a cultural chauvanist. I do think that you are stunningly ignorant about the realities of ethnic identity and the nexus of ethno-religious practice in America.

Is this an American church or an African church?

Com on, Tim K, you're just demagoguing the issue now.

a pastor for twenty years who thinks Jesus Christ was a black man in a country oppressed by white people

And today, Tim K, we learn about the concept of the metaphor.

I don't see how Obama belonging to a black church undermines his effort to transcend race in politics.

It promotes the view that racial identity and racial separatism are important and valuable. The fact that the organization is a church rather than an explicitly political group (although in this case the distinction seems to be rather fuzzy) isn't going to somehow prevent it from influencing politics.

The Wright clip I saw was a bit histrionic, but substantially correct. He thinks poor black men face discrimination in America of a kind and to a degree that is not experienced by rich privileged white women like Hillary. Check. He thinks America is a society controlled by rich white people. On the whole, check. He thinks Obama is "hated" because he isn't white, rich, and privileged. Well, no, not really. He's hated because he's standing in Hillary's way, mostly. But two out of three ain't bad for a preacher.

Tyro:

Jesus was a poor, black man who lived in a country and who lived in a culture that was controlled by rich white people. The Romans were rich, the Romans were Italian — which means they were European, which means they were white — and the Romans ran everything in Jesus’ country.

This is what the man, Mr. Wright, said. "Jesus was a poor, black man who lived in a culture that was controlled by rich white people" AND "The Romans were rich, the Romans were Italian ... which means they were white..."

That's not a metaphor.

Tyro,

I don't know why you think "it seems to be like" black people are inferior.

See, I quoted you. Therefore, I can't be misrepresenting what you said.

SqueakerRat:

Well Barack Obama should say exactly that in a campaign commercial and we'll see if he cracks 20% in Pennsylvania.

Mixner, one can believe that one's ethnic identity is important and valuable and still be a candidate who transcends that identity. Obama is more than his ethnic background, but it is ridiculous to assume that he should deny it in order to fulfill your cultural demands.

There's no evidence that Nancy Pelosi does not attach importance to her identity as an Italian American Catholic. Yet no one claims she's some kind of ethnic candidate who can't "transcend" her background and religion.

Obama role as a politician is most akin to a southerner who becomes president or a Quebecois who becomes prime minister of canada-- politicians seeped in the peculiar cultural identities of their own region while at the same time attracting enough trust as a leader from the rest of their countries while never being disassociated from their essential identity of their origins.

Tyro,

And today, Tim K, we learn about the concept of the metaphor.

Good one. And "the Romans...were European." Is that a metaphor too?

Tyro:

If any Québecois politician aspired to be Prime Minister had strong ties to the Quebec sovereignty movement there would be enormous controversy. And that's a respectable movement in Québec. Mr Wright and Mr Farrakhan are one step removed from being the FLQ of the black community. It's almost militantly racist, anti-white, anti-American rhetoric.

Tyro,

Mixner, one can believe that one's ethnic identity is important and valuable and still be a candidate who transcends that identity.

The identity in question is racial identity, not "ethnic." Do please explain how you think a candidate can believe that racial identity and racial separatism ("black churches") are important and valuable, and also somehow be a candidate who "transcends" racial identity. You do know what "transcends" means, don't you?

Tim K, since none of us believe that Obama has any beliefs in line with Mr. Farrakhan's, it sounds like you're demagoguing the issue here.

By all accounts, Obama developed a strong sense of his African-American identity and has a church that encourages it. I don't find him to be advocating anything extreme and I don't find anything wrong with attending a church that fosters a strong sense of ethnic identity. I just don't, and my opinion is just not going to change on that point. The proof is in the pudding-- Obama appeals to a wide range of different voters of various races and religions and ethnic backgrounds. He also happens to be African American and has a huge percentage of African Americans on his side. And that doesn't make him any less of a politician with appeal that transcends his own ethnicity.

As far as the full context of the quote from Wright about Jesus as "a black man oppressed by whites," it's possible he wasn't speaking metaphorically, but if he wasn't, it just makes no sense. Because it works as a metaphor, and it doesn't work literally.

Tim K
I'm not in the political consulting business. But I'm also having a hard time getting all shocked and appalled by the terryfying Blacknuss of J. Wright.

Obama's entire adult life is built around the premise that his biography and multi-racial identity have given him unique insight into America and enables him to overcome the partisan/racial/class divides. His pastor/spiritual mentor/father figure being an black separatist would appear to undermine his claim to post-racial leadership unless the idea is Obama is the mediator between white America and black nationalism.

Tyro & SqueakyRat:

There are two issues here. One is that the nature of Obama's church would probably surprise some people who think of Obama as a "post-racial" candidate whose campaign is transcending race. It's not just about what he says in speeches about race, it's about what he believes in his heart and in his mind about race in America. When it comes to how he's going to govern if he is elected president, it's not going to be his speeches and rhetoric that makes the decisions its going to be him and his own conscious that guides him. That's why it's important to know the true character of the man himself.

The other issue, closely related, is what does it say about Obama's judgment that his pastor of 20 years has so many radical and ridiculous views?

By all accounts, Obama developed a strong sense of his African-American identity and has a church that encourages it. I don't find him to be advocating anything extreme and I don't find anything wrong with attending a church that fosters a strong sense of ethnic identity.

So, presumably, if John McCain developed a strong sense of his WHITE identity, and attended a self-consciously "WHITE church" that encouraged and fostered a strong identification as WHITE, you wouldn't find anything wrong with that, either.

As far as the full context of the quote from Wright about Jesus as "a black man oppressed by whites," it's possible he wasn't speaking metaphorically, but if he wasn't, it just makes no sense. Because it works as a metaphor, and it doesn't work literally.

Considering Jesus's fondness for metaphor, He might in His mercy give Wright a pass on this one.

What's the metaphor supposed to be? What's the comparison? What Barack Obama is like Jesus and the "rich white people" who control America are like the "Romans (who are white, he makes very clear to add)" who oppress Palestine? Or are all of Black America being compared to Jesus? Either way it's an exaggerated, outrageously grandiose and self-indulgent statement about his community and his candidate, Barack Obama. Barack Obama is not oppressed in any way, shape or form. He's on the verge of becoming the Democratic nominee. Is that another example of his victimhood?

Jeremiah Wright on Bill Clinton:

"Bill did (Black America) just like he did Monica Lewinsky... he was riding dirty!"

Disgusting, vulgar, insulting, outrageous, offensive.

Obviously Wright is describing the dynamic of a people oppressed by Empire, one that I imagine would have quite a bit of resonance for Wright's audience. That was the thing about Jesus, you know: he championed the poor and oppressed.

Tim K -

Disgusting, vulgar, insulting, outrageous, offensive. Or just amazingly predictable and utterly boring?

So, presumably, if John McCain developed a strong sense of his WHITE identity, and attended a self-consciously "WHITE church" that encouraged and fostered a strong identification as WHITE, you wouldn't find anything wrong with that, either.

Well, actually isn't there that Church of the Creator/Christian Identity Movement---you know the one that David Duke would have joined if he were a whole lot more radical and extreme! Admittedly, they don't claim that AIDS was created by the CIA, but I'm pretty sure they believe in some fairly silly stuff nonetheless. And I'll bet they "hate America" just old Rev. Wright does, and probably for much the same sort of reasons.

Betcha if John McCain had been a Christian Identity worshipper for the last twenty years and described their leader as his "personal spiritual mentor" the voters and the media wouldn't make a ridiculously big fuss about it.

Just goes to show that no one will cut poor Saint Barack any slack...

Tim K

Are you stoned?

You are starting to contradict yourself.

Go have a glass of wine and take a break for awhile.

Um...I was responding to the metaphor post.

But your outrage, Tim K, has had the effect of neutralizing my annoyance with the Rev.

Guess I'll go watch a movie.

Lucy:

As you know, there are many White people, Brown people, Asian people and Latino people, and people of every ethnic background who live in poverty in America. Singling out black people's poverty and oppression and blaming it exclusively on the country being controlled by "Rich White People."

I'm outraged at many of your lack of outrage.

Well, we always knew that Tim K was a pompous ass, but it seems he has gone a stage further and dispensed with the ability to write English! Admittedly, an openly illiterate Tim K is less misleading, as the form and content of his scribblings now match each other.

I agree with realist that Obama had a whole year to act proactivey and failed to do so.

Tim K,

I think you need to read The Soul of Black Folk because from reading your comments I see that you need some enlightenment.

I hope that this will lead to honest discussions about race and the separation of church and state.

me Tim K, me not speak too good, but me love you long time....

I already figured out the people who commented on this blog were out of the mainstream of America, but I didn't realize many of you were this extremist.

Seriously, this is a no-brainer.

Tim K, last I heard, you were Canadian... Since when did you know anything about the USA? Grow up, and quit whining like a sick dog.

Lucy,

That was the thing about Jesus, you know: he championed the poor and oppressed.

Well, sort of, on occasion. When he wasn't going on and on about hellfire and damnation for those who rejected his teachings. And equating divorce and remarriage with adultery. And saying that he came to earth not to bring peace, but a sword to set people against one another. And other such unpleasantness.

But, I know, I know. The censorial conventions of modern American liberal Christianity require us to studiously ignore all these troubling things Jesus is quoted as saying and pretend that his "message" was all about helping people.

It's fun to read ultra-liberals being apologists for the plainly racist and inflammatory views that even Barack Obama today has denounced and rejected publicly.

Let's be clear about what is objectionable about what Jeremiah Wright has said. It's not objectionable that he points out that African Americans have been the victims of historic injustices and systemic inequality. What is objectionable is to say:

*God Damn America.
*America is to blame for 9/11 because of US govt policy toward Israel, and the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
*The CIA caused the crack-cocaine problems in the black community.
*HIV was engineered by the US govt in order to wipe out Black people.
*Bill Clinton "rode* Black America like he did Monica Lewinsky

These are not acceptable.

If anybody is interested in reading a calm assessment of who the real Barack Obama is, you can read my year old article, which has certainly held up better than just about anything else written about him:

http://www.amconmag.com/2007/2007_03_12/feature.html

I was going to stay out of this thread even though I have seen and heard the Jesus as black man metaphor (or black child in manger) in many of the churches I have visited or been associated with (including at least one Mormon church), but I thought it worthwhile pointing out that Honor Moore,in her New Yorker memoir of her father, Episcopal bishop Paul Moore, which is mostly attracting attention for the sexual elements, recounts a sermon she remembers her father giving some time in the early fifties in which he explicitly described Jesus as a black man born into poverty in contemporary America.

Maybe some of conservative brethren should spend more time in church and less time on the internets. Or reflect on the level of metaphor in pre-American commercial Christianity that put the words "Nigra sum sed pulchra" into his mother's mouth.

if John McCain developed a strong sense of his WHITE identity, and attended a self-consciously "WHITE church" that encouraged and fostered a strong identification as WHITE, you wouldn't find anything wrong with that, either.

Well, quite honestly McCain probably doesn't think of himself as "white," he thinks of himself as "normal." And no one thought of him as "that impressive white man who managed to make it into the naval academy." America managed to create within its borders an entirely separate ethnic identity within its African American population, and I don't begrudge them thinking of themselves that way in the same way that Blagojevich thinks of himself as a Serbian American or the way southerners in america think of themselves as southerners.

Tim K,

Well, IMO 1,2, 5 and even to a limited extent 3 have considerable basis in fact. 4, not so much. Especially 5, and 2, , two depending I suppose upon how you want to define "blame." Actually, I like 5 a lot - very vivid imagery, and captures the truth quite well. Though now that I think about it, given the nature of the sexual contact between them, maybe not quite appropriate on a literal basis.

But whatever I am, I'm sure as heck not "ultra liberal." Not even close.

And, for what it's worth, speaking for myself, I might be a less reluctant supporter of Obama if he shared some of those views.

But alas he does not. Though I have no illusions as to his electability if he did.

But by ANY objective standard what he said, however offensive you may find it, isn't close to as bad as what, say, Hagee says on a daily basis.

I'm a secular person but I was raised a Christian, so I've spent plenty of time in churches.

Jesus was not black or white. I don't think it's correct to attempt to claim Jesus as part of one racial identity.

I already figured out the people who commented on this blog were out of the mainstream of America,

I am out of the mainstream-- I'm much more in touch with the realities of ethnic identity and I'm much more accepting of the reality that plenty of politicians from Jimmy Carter to Bill Clinton to George W. Bush played up their southernness as a means of telling those southern white constituencies "I'm one of you" without claiming that they "failed to transcend race" in their campaigns. And I'm much more able to understand how a public servant can have an authentic American identity that understands and works for all Americans while still having a distinct ethnic identity of his own without expecting him to conform to what mass culture tell us is "normal American."

Obama is an impressive American, steeped in government, our constitutional system, and understands well the ties that bind all sorts of Americans together. If he's proud of and attached to his identity as an African-American, then good for him because African-Americans are as representative of America as anyone else.

Tim K,

Here is the link for you to purchase the book http://www.amazon.com/Souls-Black-Folk-W-E-B-DuBois/dp/1602067201/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1205549947&sr=8-4


I promise that you will learn a lot about the African-American experience.

Gene O'Grady,

Whatever some other pastor may have meant in some sermon he gave fifty years ago when he described Jesus as being black, it is abundantly clear that Jeremiah Wright was not speaking metaphorically about Jesus's race in the quote in question. In the same paragraph he refers to the Romans as being "white," "Italian," and "European," and he specifically cites Hillary Clinton and Rudy Giuliani as examples of "white" people, in contrast to Obama, who "ain't white." There is absolutely nothing metaphorical about Wright's discussion of racial categories in the quote. So I'm not sure what relevance you think your anecdote has to the issue.

Micheline:

Is there going to be anything in that book that tells me how its all right to say the CIA invented AIDS to murder blacks?

Tyro:

Forget the church itself. People can judge for themselves whether they think Obama's membership in that particular church conforms with his post-racial message. Regardless of that, Jeremiah Wright's views as expressed in the excerpts we have all seen by now are not acceptable. Are we really supposed to believe that this has been Obama's pastor for nearly 20 years and he never knew about these sorts of remarks (which were made on several different occasions) until he began running for president? I don't believe that for one second.

The Sailer article is better than I expected. It's infused by many of Mr. Sailer's obsessions and biases, but its worth reading none-the-less. I agree that Obama is a more complex person that most people realize, I believe (and so apparently, and surprisingly to me, does Mr. Sailer) that this in in many ways a good thing, and I even think that Mr. Sailer grasps at least part of that complexity.

I suppose the one fear I have, somewhat confirmed by some of the posts in this thread, is that some of Obama's supporters don't really want to accept or examine that complexity, but instead prefer their ideal vision of Obama. That vision is real - I think Mr. Obama is quite sincere in his post racial rhetoric - but it is, indeed, not the whole Obama.

Tyro,

Your comments are thoroughly and consistently confused. You repeatedly conflate race with ethnicity and with group identities defined by domestic geography and culture ("southerners"). These are are all different categories. I'm still waiting for you to explain clearly how you think a politician can be "transcending race" when he attaches great value and importance to his own racial identity and embraces racial separatism in the form of "black churches" and other such racially-defined organizations. Especially a church run by a pastor whose religious and political rhetoric is drenched in racial and Afrocentric language and thought. The claim that this behavior is consistent with transcending race is just utterly nonsensical.

Tim K, re-reading Obama's HuffPost essay, I think he's choosing his words carefully. Obama is probably telling the truth when he says that he did not personally hear Rev. Wright make the specific statements that are being highlighted right now, but I'm sure Obama was well-aware of the cultural tenor of his church. In fairness to Clinton supporters, I certainly regard Obama's apparent lack of preparation to deal with the inevitable fallout as sign that his campaign is vulnerable... but Clinton has weaknesses of her own.

Tyro:

That's fair. If he knew about them from others why do you think he stayed a part of the church? I'm sure there are plenty of majority black churches in Chicago he could shop around for.

Not that we should be surprised that Obama is more complex than his public persona. No politician, however honest, reveals himself or herself entirely. One reason for my antipathy towards Clinton - and I'll step out of rant mode for a moment - is that I honestly believe that the part of Clinton hidden underneath her public persona - not very well hidden - is ... not very pretty to look at. The same is true with McCain, in a different way, though in his case, while I don't buy the straight talk stuff at all, the real McCain isn't that deeply hidden (that doesn't mean that your average voter has seen it, but in some respects that isn't really McCain's fault).

Like Mr. Sailer, I like the beneath the surface Obama (to the extent that I think I know him) better than the pubic Obama. It's fairly clear to me that the post racial Obama, while very real, was the product of a long and conflicted process of dealing with his racial heritage. In many ways, I think that history (which Obama in his current incarnation doesn't really talk about) is an interesting and inspiring story. And minister Wright is probably a big part of it.

But it is a story that most Americans may not be comfortable with, and thus one that Obama is probably reluctant to tell.

Tim K,

I know I'm the last person on these boards that you will listen to, but on this subject, I wish you would educate yourself about race in America before you embarrass yourself on these comment threads.

Mixner, for the record, I think you simply don't understand ethnic/cultural identity very well. African Americans have as much of a claim to a distinct ethnic identity as southerners do and as Hyphenated-Americans do.

You repeatedly conflate race with ethnicity and with group identities defined by domestic geography and culture ("southerners")

So, just to be clear, you're claiming that people are not treated with a group identity and as having a separate ethnicity and culture because of their race?

I'm still waiting for you to explain clearly how you think a politician can be "transcending race" when he attaches great value and importance to his own racial identity

Because we in America allow someone to hold on to whatever personal identity they choose, and they're all just as American as anyone else. Carter was allowed to be southern and yet not run as "the president for southerners." Gov. Richardson is allowed to be Latino without being "the president for Latinos." Obama is allowed to identify strongly as an African American and be plugged into the African American community and still run a campaign that all people of all backgrounds find compelling. If Barack Obama were Roberto Opici, son of Italian immigrants and member in good standing of the Knights of Columbus, we wouldn't be demanding he answer who he can run a campaign that "transcends ethnic background."

Steve Sailer,

Now that your work on Obama and The Rev. Wright has exploded in the MSM, you ought to put together a crib sheet for them on the questions raised by Michelle Obama's diversity sinecure at the U. of Chicago Hospitals, Barack Obama's role as chairman of the Illinois Senate's health committee, Michelle's sudden $200k raise when Barack was elected to the U.S. Senate, etc. You've written blog posts on one element of this or another, but maybe it's time for a comprehensive article on it.

LarryM:

The last thing anybody wants to hear about in this campaign is about black people being victimized because of their race. And I know my black sister-in-law would agree with my 100%.

I think the way African Americans have been treated historically in America is appalling. I agree with Hillary Clinton that if white women had the same HIV infection rates as black women there would be a national outcry I think President Clinton was right to apologize for slavery. I think affirmative action - under certain circumstances - can be a positive thing. I wish there were more African Americans in high-profile positions in society and government.

This isn't about any of those legitimate issues.

This is about the outrageous, extremist, and false views of one pastor and why Barack Obama would associate with this person in such a close way.

This Rev. Wright controversy is a plain attempt to pit religions against each other for political gain and it's disgusting. The comments that Rev. Wright made about 9/11 are not substantially different than what Ron Paul has been saying. Yet, I didn't see any of the Republicans running off the debate stage in protest.

The idea that Jesus was black is not new to AA churches. And I don't see how it's any different than the idea that Jesus appeared in the New World. Or even that Jesus rose from the dead. These are not questions that have any place in political debate. Those who promote these divisions do not care about the larger themes of love, justice, and harmony. They seek to disrupt and oppress and exploit. To debate these provocateurs is to give them control.

You'll notice Sailor does not quote directly from Obama's book. He does not show you the passage where Obama says, "I was looking for a radical cleric to further my political career," because Obama says no such thing. Steve Sailor put those words in Obama's mouth and then cites page numbers to fool people into believing his tripe. Sailor has repeatedly proven that he is heavily invested in science that was debunked a 100 years ago. He has no interest in rising above or transforming society.

Limbaugh is desperate for this story to stick. He's attacking this like a drowning man clings to a life ring. It is pathetic. The more hysterical the rightwing gets, the less this becomes about Rev. Wright and Obama and the more it becomes about their fear and desperation in the face of real change.

The government gives them the drugs, builds bigger prisons, passes a three-strike law and then wants us to sing 'God Bless America.' No, no, no, God damn America, that's in the Bible for killing innocent people

-- Jeremiah Wright

It's in the bible that God should damn America?

Just Karl:

Ron Paul was strongly denounced by his Republican opponents for his views on 9/11.

LarryM,

Good stuff in your last two posts. BO truly is different shades of gray. Somewhat ironic, no?

Sailer's article, which I just finished, is very good. It highlights the laziness of the regular media's failure to focus on any of this while BO charmed his way into the lead. If he wants to lead this country, it is important to know what makes him tick (and not to just take his word for it). This needs much more examination rather than furtive attempts to hide it.

Tim K,

And, if you honestly can't conceive of a good answer to that last sentence, you clearly don't understand very well the rest of what you claim to believe in the rest of your post regarding race.

Even Mr. Sailer, who holds what may be charitably described as rather un-PC views on race, who agrees with you that Wright's views are appalling, and who certainly agrees with you that Obama needs to do a more thorough job of distancing himself from those views, apparently has s a far more nuanced understanding that you do as to why "Obama would associate with this person in such a close way."

And when one can honestly say that Steve Sailer has a more nuanced view of race than oneself, perhaps a little more research is in order before inserting foot in mouth.

Frankly, I find this whole situation very, very funny.

Poor Rev. Wright's package of views is so typical and standard, I could have probably predicted them myself. After all, Afrocentric preachers who hero-worship Farrakhan and pay courtesy-calls on Ghadafi *always* tend to also claim that AIDS was created by the CIA to kill black people---it's part of the standard 1-2-3 checklist. No real surprises here.

But what's hilarious to me is that Steve Sailer---whom everyone here is always denouncing---wrote about all of this a year or so ago, and neither Matt nor anybody else paid the slightest attention. Then, Sailer would repeatedly bring it up in comments, and everyone would just insult him some more but still pay no attention whatsoever to the claims, although they were extremely easy to verify. (e.g. Rev. Wright's own website!)

But now it's gotten on TV, and therefore it's suddenly become REAL, and everybody is writing and commenting furiously about it, and going back and reading Sailer's columns from 1-2 years ago!

It's like that early Nicole Kidman black comedy film where the characters are saying things like "if it's not on TV, it doesn't exist!"

Personally, I can't get too excited about the silly things that Rev. Wright says---though it obviously may have a huge impact on the Presidential race.

But I'd argue that there seem to be lots and lots and LOTS of other political things, extremely important political things, which appear to be equally factual, but also haven't (yet?) gotten on TV, so therefore haven't (yes?) become "real"...

"If it's not on TV, it just isn't real"---The sadly true motto of modern America...

Ron Paul was strongly denounced by his Republican opponents for his views on 9/11.

Obama has denounced Rev. Wright's comments. End of story.

LarryM:

It was a rhetorical question. It's meant to cause others to ask the question of themselves. I already have my own ideas of why Obama has chosen to do so, which is shared by many others.

Karl,

Would you trust anyone who tithes to Ron Paul for 20 years and grants him the honor of being a "spiritual advisor?"

Would a denunciation only after it became an issue in a presidential campaign be enough to satisfy you that the person really meant it?

Would you still harbor doubts about that person's judgment and character?

Very much not the end of story.

I'm shocked, shocked, that racists like Sailor and Limbaugh would have been able to predict the racist attacks that would be leveled on Obama. How wise and clairvoyant they are!

"African Americans have as much of a claim to a distinct ethnic identity as southerners do and as Hyphenated-Americans do."

African Americans, like other Americans have the freedom to chose their identities. To suggest otherwise is to display the bigotry of condescension.

For example, in the predominantly African American high school I attended, most of the blacks chose to embrace an identity centered around rap; eschewing school work; basketball; contests in verbally humiliating each other with jokes about appearance, darkness of complexion, poorness, etc. (this was called "snapping" where I grew up, but I've subsequently heard the term "the dozens" used for this ritual); turning perceived slights into rationales for fist fights; etc. There were exceptions though. One young African American (I am not making this up) quoted Gordon Gekko's "Greed is good" line without irony, took all honors classes, studied hard, and assumed a sort of nerd/Alex P. Keaton identity. He ended up going to one of Steve Sailer's alma maters. I am sure his race hasn't kept him from achieving a measure of wealth and success in life.

Relatedly, there is a new Broadway musical ("Passing Strange") based on the life of, and starring, an African American rock musician who, like many blacks, chose a different path and eschewed the sort of angry, aggrieved identity typified by Obama's preacher.

Similarly, Barack Obama had a choice of identities. He would have been just as welcome in a predominantly white Protestant church, a Mosque, or a Jewish synagogue, for that matter. His skin color wouldn't have kept him from being accepted in any of these houses of worship. Instead, Obama, who had no ancestors who were slaves or suffered discrimination in America, made his bed in the Rev. Wright's radical church. Now he has to sleep in it.

Beer Here,

I guess that's where we part ways on this is that I'm not so sure how important that conversation is. I mean, we allow most politicians to get away with just revealing the slick surface persona, unless what lies underneath is particularly scandalous. And Obama's history in this regard, while certainly interesting, and perhaps even inspiring (and, for the record, my take is somewhat different than Mr. Sailer's in terms of what lies underneath), isn't scandalous in any meaningful way.

I'm not sure just why it's so important that we know about it. I mean, I have a sort of sick fascination as to how Ms. Clinton's psyche developed, but I'm not suggesting that she be forced to lay it bare before the public. And in here case, I tend to think that that hidden history has much greater relevance to what kind of leader she would make.

Sure, a part of me would be fascinated to see Obama talk candidly about these issues. But I respect his decision not to do so, and I don't think his failure to do so is a reason why people shouldn't vote for him.

And really there is a bit of a double standard, and a lot of theatre, going on about all this. As far as I'm concerned, his responses to date should be enough to lay it to rest.

Beer Here,

You don't tithe to a person. Catholics don't tithe to the Pope.

Do you have any idea of the work this church does in Chicago? Do they help the homeless? Do they comfort and support people with AIDS? Perhaps Obama was supporting more than simply a speech Rev. Wright gave in 2003.

LarryM,

That's why this Wright issue is so powerful. If it did not exist, you would be right. But this changes the equation, and people will demand some level of comfort that BO really does not subscribe to Wright's view of the world.

It also calls into question BO's judgment, which is a separate question altogether.

For example, in the predominantly African American high school I attended, most of the blacks chose to embrace an identity centered around rap;

Uh-huh.

Rap didn't exist in the 1950s, Freddie One-Note. And if you really did go to school in the 1980s, you've mastered that impersonation of a reactionary old fart.

Beer Here,

I suppose the basic response is that there is ample evidence, in terms of a consistent record over many years, both in speeches and thousands of other public utterances, as well as his legislative record (which is left of center but not within a million miles of Wright's viewpoints), not to mention specific and explicit disavowals, that he does not share those views. And the only evidence that to the contrary - that his former pastor and spiritual mentor (not political) held those views? Pretty thin gruel IMO.

(I might note parenthetically that I wish that Obama's views of America's role in the world were closer to his former pastor's. But they pretty clearly are not.)

Of course, ultimately it isn't your opinion or mine that will count - we will see if people really will demand more from him. Only time will tell on that account.

By the way, and slightly tangentially, here is an interesting defense of Obama from someone who is definitely about as far from being "far left" as one can get: http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/03/14/hagee-and-wright-ii/

Ha! That's right pseudo. Obama the scary black man chose to embrace education, constitutional law, and social justice. Oh, the horror!

If you're an anti-Obama 527 group this fall, you almost couldn't ask for better material.

Just play clips of Jeremiah Wright's racist and anti-American diatribes inter-laced with clips of Barack Obama saying nice things about him.

If you're an anti-Obama 527 group this fall, you almost couldn't ask for better material.

Unless of course you had video of the candidates spouse pointing his finger and lying about a sexual affair with an intern.

I think that Rev. Wright should used the word "woe" instead of the word "damn".


Tim K.
The reason I mentioned the book so that you could understand the black experience. Although the book was written before the civil rights movement, it still holds up.

Tim K,

Please give it a fucking rest. We know your opinion.

As far as I am concerned, there are two legitimate modes of commenting on threads. Ranting & trash talking, or serious adult conversation. Some people would prefer just the second, but in any event you basically fail at both.

LarryM:

I couldn't care less what you think. What are you? Some kind of enforcer troll?

Tim K,

hehe, that's pretty good. Enforcer troll. I like that. Maybe I'll start using that as my tag when appropriate.

I don't understand why there are liberals and Democrats who have a serious problem with what Wright said. what's wrong with it? makes people uncomfortable? good. white America needs to be a little less comfortable than we are. we think its a greater crime to point out our crimes than the massive historical wrongs of slavery, A-bombing of Japan, etc were. well sorry, white America, but you are the ONLY people in the world tho think that.

LarryM:

haha glad you approve ;-)

Re: Here's the problem with your analysis, Matt, being anti-birth control or anti-war is not an outside the mainstream position.

In the US, being (politically) anti-birth control is very much out of the mainstream. When was the last time in this country anyone even remotely mainstream called for a ban on contraception?

re: There is no way Obama is going to carry Pennslyvania and Ohio in the General Election when his spiritual advisor and family friend for 20 years believe that blacks should pray to God to damn America for her "sins" and that all white people hate all black people.

If the economy continues to worsen no one will care if Obama's preacher enters the pulpit dressed as Catwoman and proceeds to sing the HorstWesselLied. Secondly this issue is coming up way too early. In six months it will be forgotten.

Re: A party that never breaks 10% of the black vote really has little to lose on this score.

Um, they lose a lot of white people (and not just liberals) who don't want to be think of themselves as racists.

Re: Except that said Christian preacher is buds with Louis Farrakhan, and the TUCC website says Muslims are welcome after a two-week orientation.

Muslims, Pagans, Buddhists, Hindus and atheists of any sort should be welcome in any Christian church worthy of the name. Last time I checked you did not have to be born into Christianity or buy a membership.

Maybe the Obama campaign's slogan should be:

Prove You're not a Racist: Obama for America

Mixner,

I'm an atheist and not at all conversant with "modern" Christianity. I do sympathize with certain Christian tenets, however.

Fox News is just gleeful over all this and is running additional footage of Wright in action. Actually he makes some good points heh. Still, I'm not exactly choked up over his resignation.

The unanswered question is are there enough people in this country that want to move beyond identity politics (of all colors) to out weigh those that are still stuck in them?

Are there more younger generational thinkers who aren't still fighting the old battles (of all colors) to out weigh those that are still engaged in them?

I have hope.

Didn't President Bush have to answer for Billy Graham's antisemitic comments on the Nixon tapes.

Afterall - President Bush said Graham led him to God a few weeks after Graham's comments were aired.

Oh wait - No one bothered Bush about that.

All they can come up with in Wright's 35 years of preaching are 3 crazy moments?

We're willing to assume that's all this fella is made of off of 3 freakin' 30 second snippets?

That says way more about us than it does about Wright or Obama.

All those of you that call yourselves journalists, do the dang research. What is this church and Reverend Wright all about those other 1000's of soundbites we haven't seen on Sean Hannity.

Good grief.

"If the economy continues to worsen no one will care if Obama's preacher enters the pulpit dressed as Catwoman and proceeds to sing the HorstWesselLied."

There are some scary things happening in the economy now, but this is mostly a Wall Street/upper middle class horror show at this point. Aside from high gas prices (which will start going down again by September, like they always do), most of the collateral damage has been limited to the wine track: coastal real estate speculators who bought their McMansions after 2005, laid off Wall Streeters and mortgage industry workers, investors who own shares in financial stocks, foreign travel-loving hipsters crushed by the dollar-Euro exchange rate, etc.

Meanwhile, the weak dollar is attracting throngs of Canadians and Europeans on shopping trips/vacations, and prompting even American hipsters to spend their travel dollars domestically. It's also providing a boon to exporting manufacturers like Deere, UTX, GE, etc. When the dust settles, this could be the sort of economic correction populists and liberals might like: Wall Streeters losing their jobs while manufactures hire more workers.

"Instead, Obama, who had no ancestors who were slaves or suffered discrimination in America, made his bed in the Rev. Wright's radical church."

Fred,

What's so radical about the Rev Wright's church? Saying that whites haven't treated blacks very well throughout American history, and that rich whites dominate this country isn't a radical statement at all, except in those John Birch circles of yours.

BTW, Fred, does your rhetorical right hand know what your rhetorical left hand? You dismiss the Trinity United Church of Christ with the phrase "radical" (how typically Republican of you), yet you concede that the African-Amerian community for the most part have suffered from both the sins of slavery and of racial discrimination throughout American history. Therefore, you know very well that Blacks in this country have legitimate grievances about the mistreatment that their community has endured from the majority white populace. Guess what? The Rev Wright agrees with you, and uses his pulpit to express and channel the fully justified anger and frustration that this mistreatment has caused. How can you so blithely dismiss this as radicalism, when you know what causes this anger and frustration in the 1st place?

Thinking about america's despicable treatment toward African-Americans for much of its history pisses me off, and I'm not even Black. I only imagine how much it pisses off Black people, even your Gordon Gekko admiring Black friend.

"Just play clips of Jeremiah Wright's racist and anti-American diatribes inter-laced with clips of Barack Obama saying nice things about him."

What exactly has the Rev Wright said that is racist or anti-American? Is it really racist to point out that American institutions are dominated by a rich white elite? Is it anti-American to point out that Al-Qaeda's 9/11 attacks were motivated by American foreign policy actions that made this country a target for Jihadist anger? No, it is plain common sense. Of course, common sense is a quality that seems to be conspicuously lacking in many Clinton supporters.

That's why they peddle nonsense ideas, such as that Hillary and Bill Clinton know how to beat Republicans, even though the record shows that when it came to advancing Democratic policy proposals, the Clintons folded time and time again in the face of even mild GOP opposition. This deliberate obtuseness when it comes to the actual historical record is why you are so shocked, shocked, that people like the Rev Wright believe that the crack epidemic and the AIDS epidemeic didn't just simply happen. It's not like the government never took part in grossly immoral actions, like the secret Army experimentation on Black servicemen that occurred at Tuskegee in the 1960s. Knowing that the government deliberately infected Black servicemen with syphillis (without the informed consent of those servicemen to boot)in the not too distant past, is it really a stretch to believe that our government might have had a role in promting the crack and AIDS epidemics that have devasted inner-city Black communities?

"yet you concede that the African-Amerian community for the most part have suffered from both the sins of slavery and of racial discrimination throughout American history."

If by "throughout American history" you are including the last four decades, than no, I don't concede this. There is a difference between acknowledging the past history of slavery and racial discrimination in America, and claiming that today's blacks are victims of institutional discrimination or persecution today.

"Thinking about america's despicable treatment toward African-Americans for much of its history pisses me off, and I'm not even Black."

Maybe you'd be less pissed off if you looked at this history in the broader context. First, black slavery, as wrong as it was, wasn't some unique American sin: it was prevalent almost everywhere there were large numbers of blacks, including in Africa, and it was far harsher in places outside of the U.S. (e.g., Caribbean sugar plantations).

Second, there were mass popular movements to improve the lot of blacks in America: Abolition, and the Civil Rights movement. If America's earlier history of slavery and Jim Crow pisses you off, you ought to remember this history as well.

Third, African Americans, on average, are better off in America today, by almost any measure, than any large black population anywhere else in the world. Not only are they better of than the blacks in other multiracial countries such as Brazil, but they are far better off than blacks in any black-run countries by a long shot.


"In this case "over-the-top" is an understatement. Barack Obama goes to a church where the pastor says Jesus Christ was a "poor black man" in a country controlled by "rich white people." First of all, since when are people in Palestine/Israel considered black?"

Tim K,

If a Palestinian or Israelite is of Negroid descent, they would be considered Black. I've got news for you Tim, they are people of Negroid descent that can be found in Palestine/israel, just as you find people of Negroid descent in the (neighboring country of Egypt.Is everyone in those countries black? No, but that doesn't mean that there aren't any Blacks there at all. Moreover, considering that Judaism has made inroads into the nearby country of Ethiopia, it would be folly to think that ancient Israel had no contact or interaction with black Africans.

(Besides, where do you think the Jew Fro' came from?)

"There is a difference between acknowledging the past history of slavery and racial discrimination in America, and claiming that today's blacks are victims of institutional discrimination or persecution today."

Fred,

There is a difference yes, but is this distinction a factually accurate one? In other words, knowing how persistent institutional discrimination or persucation against Blacks was before the passing of various Civil Rights acts, why it is logical to argue that this state of affairs disappeared entirely in the aftermath of this legislation? It is one thing to argue that over the course of the last 4 decades, the effects of present-day institutional discrimination or persecution on the fortunes of the African-American community has been rendered virtually immaterial; it is another thing to argue that these negative societal forces have disappeared entirely.

Moreover, you are still forgetting that past discrimination can still affect present-day communities, since past discrimination creates the roots of pathologies that undermine a discriminated/persecuted community from within. This doesn't mean that such a community cannot overcome such pathologies, nor does it mean that said community has no moral responsibility in dealing with such pathologies. It does mean that presence of dysfunctional culture in the Black community does not absolve the historical sins that created the pathologies in the 1st place.

"Maybe you'd be less pissed off if you looked at this history in the broader context. First, black slavery, as wrong as it was, wasn't some unique American sin"

Fred,

It doesn't matter how unique it is, and even if it was worse elsewhere. It was still a great evil, and it is still something to be pissed off about. Being pissed off about it is the response that moral decency requires; trying to softpedal how bad this evil was through arguing over how commonplace it was, and how it was worse in other places, is a sign of moral callousness. I don't think that you are morally calloused, which is why I would advise you not to resort to such lame & tired arguments. The morally calloused are more than capable of making their arguments on their own; they don't need you to do their work for them.

"Second, there were mass popular movements to improve the lot of blacks in America: Abolition, and the Civil Rights movement. If America's earlier history of slavery and Jim Crow pisses you off, you ought to remember this history as well.

Third, African Americans, on average, are better off in America today, by almost any measure, than any large black population anywhere else in the world. Not only are they better of than the blacks in other multiracial countries such as Brazil, but they are far better off than blacks in any black-run countries by a long shot. "

Fred,

I do remember the civil rights and abolition movements, and I look upon them with great pride. That pride should not blind us to the fact that the evils these movements fought were EVILS, not just simply minor blemishes on the face of American history.

So what if Blacks are better off in America than they are elsewhere? It still doesn't absolve America of its sins. It just means that America has made better progress on race relations and on the treatment of Blacks than many other nations.

If I beat my wife once a year, while you beat your wife once a week, it doesn't follow that I should take pride in that. I should be ashamed that I'm beating my wife at all; I just have less to be ashamed of than you.

When the dust settles, this could be the sort of economic correction populists and liberals might like: Wall Streeters losing their jobs while manufactures hire more workers.

Yes: but unfortunately, Fred, most of those workers will be living in places like Mexico, or China, or Bangladesh - or probably anyplace that isn't "here".

It's interesting to see your economic commentary is about on a par with your analysis of racial history in America - I guess consistency is a virtue...

I can't believe the racism I see here amongst white liberals. I have been to many black churches and have NEVER heard the outrageous kind of statements that Wright has made. FOr people on here to assume that this is typical "black" church behavior is disgusting. Wright is far outside the mainstream black religious community.

Chris Matthews had a black minister from Boston on Hardball last night who said that Obama shouuld have gotten up and walked out when he heard the things Wright said. He said that there was no place for that sort of rhetoric in the black church and that it was historically innacurate and ridiculous.

The one thing that disturbs me most about the Reverend Wright is the vulgar pelvic thrusts during his sermon about Bill Clinton 'ridin' dirty'. I really don't think that's appropriate in church. The politics, whatever.

Fred appears to be a Steve Sailer clone so there's probably not much use challenging any of his points, but I would just say that it's at the very least, debatable whether the status of African Americans, on the average, is better than the status of Black people in some of the Caribbean countries (obviously, Haiti would be an exception here). In cities like Boston, Toronto or New York there are many Black Caribbean immigrants, and many of them are somewhat less than enthused about the life that they find in America. Educational performance and health statistics are arguably better for black people in some of the Caribbean coutries than in the United States- particularly in American inner cities. (Please don't simply throw up some GDP statistics, as I don't think GDP is a great measure of the overall well being of a country).

I agree with Teresa--this is appalling. However you want to spin the moral equivalemcy here, no mainstream Catholic priest would ever indulge in the racist cant or the America-bashing from his pulpit that Wright made a commonplace in the 17 years that Obama was a parishioner. More and more testimonials and video are coming out--sooner or later one is going to place Obama in a pew while this stuff was being said. Which will contradict his bland assertions last night. Will this destroy his political career or nomination? Probably not. Will it place a 42% cement cap on his share of the electorate? Almost certainly. You people need to face facts: this election is like 'Death Becomes Her'--you've got two seriously damaged living dead zombies staggering into the convention now. A serious party would convince its superdelegates to boycott both and draft Gore. It's the Democrats' only hope now. Wake up!

eltoro:

That's obvious. There is no evidence that Jesus of Nazareth was black or "Negroid" as you say. He was a Jew, a Semitic people. It's inappropriate for a pastor to talking about Jesus Christ in the context of belong to either the white or black "race" when, in fact, Jesus wasn't African or European. The only motivation for doing so is divisive, as it seeks to claim for one group of people the moral high ground in the Christian tradition. Black people are associated with Jesus, and White people with the Roman Empire... or "Rich White People" as Jeremiah Wright so eloquently put it.

Color me nuts, but I tend to agree with Ron Paul's assessment of 9/11 and its causes. Does that mean I'm a traitor? I certainly don't think so.

It high time that the USA grow up and take some real responsibility. Love of country with blinders on is not my cup of tea. And none of the above negates an ability to grieve.

As for Rev. Wright and some of the excess, plenty of preachers, white and black, channel the madness and let it all out as a means of detoxing their parishioners. Religion isn't just a bandaid ... it also serves as escape valve.

I'm not feeling optimistic about Obama's chances at this point, but I'm glad some of the national nastiness has been exposed. And, above all else, I'm glad that the Clintons have chosen to reveal their true colors. The DNC needs to move on and find another way, and the DLC will have some serious explaining to do should McCain become our next President.

charlotte:

I'm pretty sure the point is the vast majority of Americans - meaning the vast majority of voters - don't agree with Ron Paul or Jeremiah Wright on 9/11, or with Wright's views and tone in the comments we have seen. If the Far Left of the Democratic party doesn't mind, that's good but I'm pretty sure he had those votes anyways.

I don't think Obama was cynical in his embrace of Christianity. He joined that church before he even went to law school. If you listen to the actual "Audacity to Hope" sermon, which Ben Smith links to over at Politico, you hear a completely different Wright than the one on the viral YouTube videos. The sermon is thoughtful, low-key, meditative and even scholarly.

An important question for me is this: If, on a random Sunday, during the 1988- 2003 period you walked into Trinity, would you be far more likely to hear a sermon like the "Audacity" sermon, or one like the YouTube rant. The press has not answered that question; it may do so soon, because Obama is claiming that the tone and tenor of what he heard when he attended Trinity under Wright's leadership was far different from the tone and tenor of the YouTube rant.

I was impressed by Obama's rapid response to the controversy and his statement on it, on none other than FoxNews. It reminds me of John McCain's quick action on the Vicki Iseman story a month ago. (Remember that?)

1) We don't know if these quotes are representative of the reverends usual sermons, or of the church itself. Since the media doesn't provide context, and only a 15 sec splice of the "greatest hits" we can't know. I do think we should not engage in a witchhunt.

2) White pastors make all kinds of controversial statements all the time. The media largley gives Falwell, Roberts, Hagee, etc a pass. Is it because he was black?

3) Barack Obama is multiracial, has a white mother, although he identifies as "black". But perhaps this is why he has a message of unity that transcends race unlike the more divisive reverend.

4) These clips are very old. Wright's controversy is well known and written about since last year. I kind of wonder about the timing and "newsworthiness" of a 15 second splice job leaked to FoxNews. Is this a hitjob of some kind from the GOP or Hillary? Anyway, I thin kthe media shouldn't roll over for FoxNews, Rush Limbaugh and other GOP hacks who just want to push attacks and "guilt by association" smears against Democrats.

John McCain just embraced Hagee, who called Catholics the "great wh*re". But the media largely gave hm a pass. Maybe because Fox and Rush weren't pushing it hard.

Just a thought that journalists should be lapdogs for the Rightwing Noise machine.

So(!) true. The real explanation is what you say it is and as I thought about it last night, I realized it doesn't get him very far with those who will be quite concerned with this issue, and it makes him look regular-pol-like to the rest of us. And I'm a big booster.

Jack:

Is it because he was black?

Oh hell no, you're not going to be able to get Obama off the hook on this one because he's African American, blaming every one and the media of racism.

If John McCain and Cindy were married by Jerry Falwell and their children were baptized by Jerry Falwell damn right we'd be hearing about it. Same with Hagee. This is more than just an endorsement. And let's be honest, dissing White people (70% of the country) is a lot more damaging than dissing gay people (10% of the country) (and I'm gay, so no lectures about homophobia, it's just a fact).

The clips are NOT very old. The one where he's talking about Barack "poor black man" Obama and Hillary "never been called a n*****" Clinton was from 2007.

"There is a difference yes, but is this distinction a factually accurate one?"

Yes.

"In other words, knowing how persistent institutional discrimination or persucation against Blacks was before the passing of various Civil Rights acts, why it is logical to argue that this state of affairs disappeared entirely in the aftermath of this legislation?"

It's logical to argue this because it's true: there hasn't been any institutional discrimination against blacks in America in decades; in fact, the opposite has been the case: there have been copious examples of institutional discrimination in favor of blacks.

"Moreover, you are still forgetting that past discrimination can still affect present-day communities, since past discrimination creates the roots of pathologies that undermine a discriminated/persecuted community from within."

I call bullshit here. First, America is full of folks who ancestors have suffered worse discrimination/persecution than blacks and suffered it more recently: Jews whose parents or grandparents came here as penniless refugees from pograms or the Holocaust, Vietnamese and Cambodians who fled genocidal regimes, ethnic Indians who were persecuted and dispossessed by black nationalism after living in Africa for generations, etc. None of these groups displays the pathologies common to the African American underclass. Second, outside of the South, American blacks had progressed far toward mainstream norms by the 1950s before the liberal welfare policies of the 1960s wrecked the black family. Those welfare policies remain one proximate cause of black pathologies.

The conditions of blacks elsewhere in the world are also relevant here. That similar pathologies are common among blacks in France, Brazil, etc., and worse pathologies are common in most black-run countries suggests that the primary cause is something other than America's history of slavery and Jim Crow segregation in the South.

"If I beat my wife once a year, while you beat your wife once a week, it doesn't follow that I should take pride in that. I should be ashamed that I'm beating my wife at all; I just have less to be ashamed of than you."

This analogy is stupid because in it you are beating your wife today, but slavery and Jim Crow segregation aren't happening today. Let me try to fix it for you: if your great-great-great-grandfather enslaved his wife, and Chris Ford's great-great-great-grandfather fought a war to free her, and my great-great-great-grandfather was a peasant in Eastern Europe back then, then should I walk around ashamed of your great-great-great-grandfather?

Jay C,

"Yes: but unfortunately, Fred, most of those workers will be living in places like Mexico, or China, or Bangladesh - or probably anyplace that isn't "here"."

The weak U.S. dollar spurs manufacturing "here", where workers are paid in U.S. dollars. That's why American manufacturers have been booming and more foreign manufacturers (e.g., European car companies) are considering opening plants here.

Hector,

Yes there is an exceptional black-run place or two where blacks have a high quality of life. Barbados is one example. See my clone Steve Sailer's blog post about Thomas Sowell, "Black Rednecks", etc., which hypothesizes an explanation for this.

The one thing that disturbs me most about the Reverend Wright is the vulgar pelvic thrusts during his sermon about Bill Clinton 'ridin' dirty'. I really don't think that's appropriate in church. The politics, whatever.

The pelvic thrusts are the good Reverend's best feature. A little comic lewdness goes a long way in church. Humor flourishes best in filth. Satire is essentially desecration. Just ask Jonathan Swift, Rabelais, or George Carlin. Wright had the beautiful audacity to mock the official story that Bill Clinton just loved the colored folk and vice-versa. All the black folks still rotting in some hellhole prison for minor drug possession, families torn asunder because of Clinton's hidebound, racist policies know better. The Reverend's a truth-teller and a damn funny one at that. Alright, so Obama has to renounce Satan but in this case Satan is a whole lot closer to Christ than any other man of the cloth I've seen in action on the TV.

"None of these groups displays the pathologies common to the African American underclass. Second, outside of the South, American blacks had progressed far toward mainstream norms by the 1950s before the liberal welfare policies of the 1960s wrecked the black family. Those welfare policies remain one proximate cause of black pathologies."

I'm calling you out for this whopper. African Americans were no where close to experiencing any semblance of "mainstream" American norms in the 50s' or at any other time prior to 1964. During the greatest housing and employment boom our nation had experienced, opening limitless opportunities for whites, blacks were confined to urban ghettos in the North and shacks in the rural South. Banks and land developers refused to allow blacks into the suburbs and the federally insured mortgages which boosted the wealth our privileged ancestors, where closed to blacks.

Blacks therefore, where not allowed to attain the American dream of a suburban home and two cars in the garage, but where instead forced to rot in the urban cities where industrial jobs disappeared and moved to the suburbs and the South. Blacks were stuck with no employment and no future. Even the inferior ethnic whites (Italians and Irish) were able to buy and rent homes in the suburbs, and discrimination against them ceased. The blacks however, were not allowed over the Berlin Wall to participate in middle class America. Ditto for segregated schools with inferior materials, and discrimination in employment. You sir, should be ashamed of yourself for your morally culpable attempt to "whitewash" our sordid history.

We created the ghettos that blacks now inhabit, we denied them jobs when they tried their damnest to support their families, we denied them an access to quality education to advance themselves, we denied them the privileges of the New Deal, like Social Security and FHA mortgage loans and yet required those who did work, to pay taxes into the system. eltoro is exactly right, "past discrimination created the roots of pathologies that undermine" the Negro community of today. The Jews, the Asians, and any other group you mention have no such history in this country.

Yeah, but women or something.

Nyah.

John McCain just embraced Hagee, who called Catholics the "great wh*re". But the media largely gave hm a pass. Maybe because Fox and Rush weren't pushing it hard.

McCain's acceptance of Hagee's endorsement shouldn't be more controversial than Obama's endorsements by black charlatans like Jessie Jackson and Al Sharpton. Unlike Wright's intimate twenty-year relationship with Obama, complete with a ceremonial role in the campaign, Hagee and Parsley have had only marginal personal relationships with McCain. McCain has also made it clear he hardly agrees with everything John Hagee has ever said. That's more than Barack Obama has been asked to say about Al Sharpton's comments on Jews, for example.

Liberals, always desperate for a dose of moral equivalence in the wake of an embarrassment, have recently attempted to describe Parsley as McCain's personal spiritual adviser. That's funny considering they've reportedly only met face to face on a single, largely ceremonial occasion and McCain has never attended a sermon by the man.

Yeah, like when Robert Byrd joined the KKK in West Virginia to develop street cred with the white haters, Obama needed some cred in South Chicago. It's not like he was a hater himself, it's just what you have to do to be accepted.

just for the record, lots of atheist and agnostic Jews attend High Holy Day services.

--- If this quote doesn't demonstrate the irrationality of the left.....

other thoughts ....

I thought you lefties hated racism. That 'pastor' oozes racism, apparently the lefty approved racism variety.

"What did Pastor Wright say that wasn't true"? Well, for example saying that the CIA invented AIDS to kill black people is, to say the least, unproven.

But hey, running for president with that sort of invective spoken by your advisors and thus attributable to your ideology is a great idea. Lets see what percent of the greater population - not you lefties - think of 'God Damn the USA'. Lets finally have a real discussion on CIA AIDS research and 911 brought down personally by Bush. Its overdue.

yes, it would not have been an issue IF he did not build his platform based on HAVING BETTER JUDGEMENT, BEARER OF HOPE & CHANGE, & BEING A PERSON WHO TRANSCENDED BEYOND RACE.

Read his book and you will see the pastor's influence on him. He kept him as an advisor on his campaign, and in the beginning Obama was defending him until the youtube video surfaced.

the fact is that Obama is a not agent of change that he wants US to believe, he is a double talking, typical politician and he has fooled his own people about the so called "movement".

yes, it would not have been an issue IF he did not build his platform based on HAVING BETTER JUDGEMENT, BEARER OF HOPE & CHANGE, & BEING A PERSON WHO TRANSCENDED BEYOND RACE.

Read his book and you will see the pastor's influence on him. He kept him as an advisor on his campaign, and in the beginning Obama was defending him until the youtube video surfaced.

the fact is that Obama is a not agent of change that he wants US to believe, he is a double talking, typical politician and he has fooled his own people about the so called "movement".

That Bill Clinton put more black folks in prison than any President before him for minor drug offenses and made more black folks destitute with the implementation of welfare reform? That the U.S. underwrites State Terrorism against the Palestinians? ALL TRUE!

--No these are lies. I hope that the ultimate Democratic nominee runs on these 'lefty-facts'.

For those who want to see both sides of the issues raised ...

Welfare reform celebrates its tenth anniversary this year, and celebrates seems the right word. As most readers know, Temporary Assistance for Needy Families (TANF) ended the much-despised Depression-era federal entitlement to cash benefits for needy single mothers, replacing it with short-term, work-oriented programs designed and run by individual states. Its success has surprised just about everyone, supporters and naysayers alike.

http://www.city-journal.org/html/16_2_welfare_reform.html

Aid is central to Washington's relationship with Cairo. The US has provided Egypt with $1.3 billion a year in military aid since 1979, and an average of $815 million a year in economic assistance. All told, Egypt has received over $50 billion in US largesse since 1975.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0412/p07s01-wome.html

If we were 'supporting terrorism' would we also support the enemy of the 'terrorist state'? I think not. God Bless Israel, a democratic country in a sea of oppressive dictatorships.

at the 93rd annual Hampton University Ministers' Conference. In the first minutes of the video, Obama had this to say:

"I've got to give a special shout-out to my pastor, the guy who puts up with me, counsels me, listens to my wife complain about me. He's a friend, and a great leader. Please everybody give an extraordinary welcome to my pastor, the Reverend Jeremiah Wright, Jr. ...Where he at? -There he is! That's him right there!"

link: http://cbs2chicago.com/topstories/Obama.Blacks.Quiet.2.337535.html

Watch it and you will see their relationship was and is closer than he wants us to believe.

--It doesn't matter how unique (slavery) it is, and even if it was worse elsewhere. It was still a great evil, and it is still something to be pissed off about. Being pissed off about it is the response that moral decency requires; trying ...


Fine. True. So you join me in hating the (muslim) countries where it is practiced today? You hold hatred and disgust for the Africans and Muslims who engaged in the slave trade as well? You oppose tyrants who dominate their citizens so they are no more than slaves such as Castro, Kim Jong Il?

And you honor the memory for three hundred sixty thousand union soldiers who fought to end slavery?

Obama made this an issue, not his enemies/opponents.

Obama was the one who has said he has taken inspiration from this man. He is the one who has used his deep faith for electoral advantage. He is the one who has said that faith was brought to him by Wright. That is why this is an issue. None of the Republican candidates were in the same situation. i believe they were all brought into their faiths by their upbringing, and have not cited their religious leaders as inspiration or brought them into their campaign teams!

"I have no idea what the rabbis at Temple Rodef Shalom (where I've gone to synagogue the past few High Holy Days) or at The Village Temple (where I had my bar mitzvah) think about political issues..."

Smart move, Matthew. I wouldn't get too close to the rabbis at your "temples" either. Much too liberal for my taste. But you're not running for president and Obama is. And Obama has a close ten-year relationship with Wright who (if you bother to look) is a classic "chickens-coming-home-to roost" black nationalist and anti-Zionist. Speaking as a Jew and an American, that's the last guy I want leading a prayer breakfast at the White House.

Obama is a lying, racist dirtbag. Or he's a lying dirtbag who was only pretending to be a racist. I'm not sure which is worse. Either way, evil men like him have no business in the White House. He's a profoundly immoral man.

I think Mr. Yglesias has a point. It's unfair to pin Rev. Wright's offensive religious views on Barack Obama. Besides, Mr. Obama has already condemned many of them. It's time we moved on to something relevant: Obama's relation Obama's cozy relationship with indicted Chicago fixer Antoin "Tony" Rezko. Then we can get around to something everyone understands - the subject of money.

The hate-mongers are all come here to slime; only makes me appreciate the courage of Obama all the more.

Crazy Steve Sailer collets viciousness and doles it out for all the haters everywhere to follow. Beneath contempt.

The referenced comments of Jeremiah Wright are simply indefensible. They are not new. This is what he does. Obama's relationship is as he (obama) claimed. Mentor! Advisor! With the history involved, pick your lie. Bad judgement is the very least of his problem. Matt's judgement fails here as well. Wishful thinking will not change the facts.

"Obama made this an issue, not his enemies/opponents."

I kind of reminds me of how sleazy it was that Clinton and Carter refused to disown and publicly denounce their close relations before the bad behavior of the latter became fodder for Republicans. How dare Obama claim to be religious, all the while knowing that his pastor might have given an unhinged sermon at some point?

"If John McCain and Cindy were married by Jerry Falwell and their children were baptized by Jerry Falwell damn right we'd be hearing about it."

You don't need to dig up grainy videos of Falwell to understand what he was about. It was a decades-long pattern. Jeremiah Wright is not your typical black militant. He's a guy who gave one or a very few militant sermons, of which there is no evidence that Obama even knew about. The difference is pretty obvious to those not so eager to make hay out of it. You're treading in Lou Dobbs and Bill O'Reily territory now, Tim K.

While it bothers me that some minister thinks: this is a racist country; HIV was invented by whites to kill blacks; the U.S. is responsible for 9/11 and deserved it; that Israel is bad because it's filled with Jews; that Khaddafi is worth visiting or Castro is worth admiring, well, I know white folks who feel the same way. Those are their personal opinions. (Of course, constantly screaming this at whites isn't going make you friends on the other side of the racial divide.) Sad, but so be it.

But while you can't pick your family (that "crazy old uncle" meme), you can choose your congregation. And sticking for 20 years with a whack job like Wright says a lot about your character.

Don't tell me Obama honestly believes that Wright's over-the-top statements were rare and not the norm or that he wasn't aware . Like in any congregation, everyone will talk about sermons that are electrifying or controversial. You don't think someone from Wright's church didn't bring up in a conversation with Obama that Wright said "whites invented AIDS to kill us black people" or that Wright went to Libya or that Wright said "those damn Jews, Yadda, Yadda". Obama heard it many times. And didn't walk away from that church. Instead, Obama kept this mentally sick old man as his "spiritual mentor." And subjected his children to that warped mind.

So this would explain why Obama won't wear a flag lapel pin, or cover his heart during the national anthem, or wouldn't condemn Wright's vicious statements until he was cornered by the facts and then in an only half-hearted obfuscating double-talking way. And it would explain why his mean-spirited wife would say only now, with her husband's candidacy, is she proud of this country, or that she was having such a tough time "getting by" with her $300K+ salary, or that life is so brutal and unforgiving while living in a $1.6 million home. They really feel no loyalty to this country and its citizens. And we're starting to realize that.

So when Obama looks out on his audience during his speeches, he's thinking "you usefull idiot honkies have no idea what I have in store for you" or "you dumb blacks really believe that I have your best interests at heart." He knows this. Now do we.

Obama will never be president because with a mindset like his he in unelectable. Seeing this, the DNC and superdelegates are going to press behind the scenes for rules changes to give Hillary the nomination.

"It's inappropriate for a pastor to talking about Jesus Christ in the context of belong to either the white or black "race" when, in fact, Jesus wasn't African or European. The only motivation for doing so is divisive, as it seeks to claim for one group of people the moral high ground in the Christian tradition. Black people are associated with Jesus, and White people with the Roman Empire... or "Rich White People" as Jeremiah Wright so eloquently put it."

Tim K,

Is it divisive, and just an attempt to counter centuries of Europeans promoting Jesus exclusively in their image, even to the non-Europeans that they converted to Christianity? I see nothing wrong with a Black pastor claiming Jesus as a Black man, or an Hispanic pastor viewing Mary as a mestizo woman, or Leonardo DaVinci making Jesus look Italian. I do have a problem with whites demanding that Black Christians view Jesus only as a white man, and who get histrionic in their criticisms of a Negro Jesus, but have nothing to say when some groups of Christians picture the Semitic Jesus in ways that make him resemble a Nazi wet dream (a blond, blue-eyed Nordic European).

Knowing that some Israelities and Egyptians during Jesus's time possessed at least a partial Nubian heritage, is it really far-fetched to say Jesus could have been a Black man? Put it this say; a Black Jesus is probably far closer to the real image of Jesus than a Nordic Jesus or even a Renaissance Italian Jesus. If we are going to allow portrayals of Jesus in almost Aryan terms, why can't we allow Afrocentric portrayals also?

Personally, I don't have a problem with people viewing Jesus in their own image. I do have a problem when people take this image literally, and use it as a tool of racial or ethnic supremacy, the way Europeans used it against the non-Europeans that they conquered and enslaved. Trinity United Church of Christ's Afrocentric theology does not fit this mold; it is instead a reaction against centuries of oppression against American Blacks by Whites. Note that TUCC does not advocate Black separatism, nor does it exclude Whites from its congregation.

Calling the Rev Wright a racist against whites, a mirror image of a white supremacist, is completely erroneous. The Rev Wright does not hate whites; he hates RACISM practiced by Whites against Blacks. Whites and other non-blacks who reject white supremacism are welcome to be part of the Rev Wright's flock.

That means that you and I could join TUCC if we wanted to, even when the Rev Wright was still pastor. Assuming that Fred rejects white supremacism, he could join too. (I'm not so sure about Steve Sailer though.)

"First, America is full of folks who ancestors have suffered worse discrimination/persecution than blacks and suffered it more recently: Jews whose parents or grandparents came here as penniless refugees from pograms or the Holocaust, Vietnamese and Cambodians who fled genocidal regimes, ethnic Indians who were persecuted and dispossessed by black nationalism after living in Africa for generations, etc."

Fred,

I call bullshit back. None of these people have had roots in America going back to before the American Civil War, and these people were not victims of slavery in America, nor were their ancestors the victims of decades of Jim Crow dejure segregation in the South, and defacto enforced segregation in the North. In other words, their victimizers were not Americans, and the country they fled to (the USA) did not have a deeply entrenched history of racism, segregation, and institutional discrimination against them. (Jews, Indians, and Cambodians weren't exactly common among the slaves of the antebellum South. Jews were not only exceedingly rare as slave owners, but they were even less common as slaves. That's why you usually don't find Jewish southerners with last names like O'Hara.).

In AMERICAN history, there is one group that genuinely suffered even worse at the hands of whites than African-Americans, and they are NATIVE AMERICANS. Last time I looked, Fred, Native American communities tend to suffer from greater incidences of social pathologies than even African-Americans do. (It's funny how when we use relevant comparisons that your arguments fall apart and mine hold up.)

In addition, Fred, Black immigrants from Africa and the West Indies and their descendants tend to fare better in America than the descendants of Africans who were enslaved in America. The fortunes of Black Americans who are descendants of immigrants tend to decline only when they become acculturated in the dysfunctional norms of the African-American underclass, norms established by people who were descendants of slaves, not immigrants.

"Let me try to fix it for you: if your great-great-great-grandfather enslaved his wife, and Chris Ford's great-great-great-grandfather fought a war to free her, and my great-great-great-grandfather was a peasant in Eastern Europe back then, then should I walk around ashamed of your great-great-great-grandfather?"

Fred,

Likewise, if my ancestor was the greatest of saints who saved your ancestors from being raped and murdered by Chris Ford's ancestors, you can't walk around taking pride in my ancestor.

Therefore, if you see no need to take shame in the sins of American history since your direct ancestors did not take part in those sins, then you have no basis to taking pride in the heroic actions performed by people like Washington or Adams of Jefferson of Franklin or Lincoln also.

Sorry, Fred, but as Americans, we must feel pride in the good things our country has done AND feel shame about the bad things our country has done. We can't invoke the ancestor defense to avoid the latter while still doing the former.


"That similar pathologies are common among blacks in France, Brazil, etc., and worse pathologies are common in most black-run countries suggests that the primary cause is something other than America's history of slavery and Jim Crow segregation in the South."

Fred,

You are obviously forgetting that like the US, France is a majority white nation whose history includes the enslavement of Blacks. (Former French colonies like Haiti are overwhelmingly Black because the French brought African slaves to work the plantations there, after the Native American population died out.) Moreover, the French have engaged in defacto segregation against their immigrant, non-European populations. That's why France's enclaves of Algerians and Middle Easterners display similar pathologies to people in France's African enclaves.

Brazil's history is also akin to the US in its treatment of Blacks. Portuguese and Brazilian whites brought African slaves to work the plantations of Brazil, just as British, French and American whites brought African slaves to work the plantations of the American South. Brazil also has a history of racism against Blacks by its white elite, just like the US. One difference in Brazil's favor is that Brazilians were open to interracial marriage and sexual relations far more than Americans ever have been.

Moreover, the currently Black-run countries in Africa and the Caribean didn't pop up out of nowhere. With a few exceptions in Africa, most of these countries are former colonies of European countries like Great Britain and France. (Last time I looked, most Europeans tend to have a white complexion.) The European colonialists practiced racism toward the Africans, and practiced white supremacy. (After all, they were imperialist whites controlling an overwhelmingly Black population.)

You are technically correct that the pathologies in these countries is not due to AMERICAN racism, segregation, and institutional discrimination; instead, they are due to EUROPEAN imperialism, racism, segregation, and institutional discrimination. Therefore, the currently Black-run countries have long histories of white tyranny toward Blacks, just as the US does.

It's funny how your arguments don't hold up when we actually look at the details of history.

"I thought you lefties hated racism. That 'pastor' oozes racism, apparently the lefty approved racism variety."

Red,

The Rev Wright welcomed whites as part of his Afrocentric congregation. That's hardly the action of a racist.

The Rev Wright is not a Black man who hates Whites; he is a Black man who hates White RACISM. Moreover, he not preach that Blacks should enslave whites, nor does he excuse racism by any group, including Blacks. He simply holds racism by whites to be particularly contemptible, given America's long history of injustice towards Blacks on the parts of many Whites.

"So you join me in hating the (muslim) countries where it is practiced today? You hold hatred and disgust for the Africans and Muslims who engaged in the slave trade as well? You oppose tyrants who dominate their citizens so they are no more than slaves such as Castro, Kim Jong Il?"

Red,

Yes, I do. Moreover, the presence of sins in American history does not absolve other countries of the sins in their histories. One of the great things about America is that it actually tries all facets of its history, including the negative aspects. This puts us well ahead morally of people like Castro or Kim Jong Il, who flush the inconvenient or embarassing or contradictory aspects of their country's history down the memory hole.

You should be applauding the Rev Wright then for reminding us Americans about the negative aspects of our history, instead of whitewashing our history in the manner of the apparatchiks serving Castro or Kim Jong Il. Your inability to see this makes me wonder if you suffer from the mindset of a Communist. (No wonder why you call yourself "Red").

"And you honor the memory for three hundred sixty thousand union soldiers who fought to end slavery?"

I do honor the Union soldiers who fought to end slavery, and condemn the Confederate soldiers who fought to perpetuate it. Being a true patriotic American requires us not only to remember our Union heroes, but also our Confederate villans.

My pride in Union heroism should not blind to me to this; if America had ended slavery through peaceful means or had never let it take root in the 1st place, then those brave Union soldiers would hever have had to fight that war. The fact that it took a Civil War to end slavery in America is something for Americans to be ashamed about.

"I fail to see what's controversial about Wright's comments."

"God Bless America? No, no, no! God Damn America!" That's controversial. Saying we 'didn't bat an eye' (which isn't true) when we used nuclear weapons on Hitler's ally in Imperial Japan (now there was a force for freedom and peace) -- that's controversial.

You may well agree with him that we invited the 9/11 attack, but to claim it's not controversial -- that's only true in very select circles. I'm sure Obama knows how controversial it is. He'd never admit it even if he did think that.

The question isn't whether they attacked us because of our policies, but whether we should change our policies in light of the attack and to what degree. 9/11 happened before Iraq. I don't see how you project power in the world without making enemies. Is it about projecting power responsibly, or not projecting power at all? Just saying we should reject Neocon stupidity is ducking that question.

So if he were a white republican of faith, whose minister of 20 years and who is part of his campaign advisory staff, happened to be a little off the hate and racist rails, it'd be a big deal.... but since he's black it's trumped up?

I do understand your point of positioning himself to run for a mostly black constituency. Now running for a different constituency... but this guy was part of his current advisory panel on religious matters.

Besides I think it's legitimate to question anyone running for public office on their affiliation with hate mongers... especially if it's been a long term affiliation.

I have a theory about Illinois politics. It's that the progressive contingent is constantly on the lookout for the non-crazy black politician. There have been so many who seemed promising, yet promptly went nuts in office and exploded in flames-- Carol Moseley Braun, Mel Reynolds, etc. (Others never seemed promising and were obvious hacks or egotists, like Gus Savage or Jesse "King of Beers" Jackson.) Obama was the promised one and now, for him to turn out to apparently subscribe to the nuttier fringes of black conspiracist goofiness, is a bitter pill with a too, too familiar taste for Illinoisians. I mean, jeez, I don't care what color you are, just believing you're oppressed when you've had as golden a path to power and wealth as Obama shows a lack of self-awareness I don't want near the presidency. (Although you'd be hard pressed to say Hillary's any better in that regard...)

Maybe he can get out of it. I tend to think it's like Mitt Romney successfully convincing us it's no big deal he's a Mormon, only to turn out to belong to a polygamist splinter sect. We'll elect a black man, but we're not wrong to not want to elect a black man who thinks we're part of a racial conspiracy against him.

Obama would have been better off if he just stayed a Muslim. He could have assuaged fears about raving jihadism by becoming a Sufi Muslim.

wtf happened to separation of Church and State?

It's beyond bad enough that the televangelist Barry Obama preaches on the stump, telling South Carolinians to help make him an "instrument of God" (haven't we had enough of hucksters like born-again Bush?)....but here is the former Muslim turned "Christian" Black Powermonger Jeremiah Wright making comments about the Clintons and Obama in...what passes as a "church."

The feds should tax Wright's sorry carcass starting whenever he began posing as a Christian pastor. Trinity should be stripped of its religious cloak and made to pay back taxes as the political entity it is.

And google it yourselves...The New Republic reported on Wright's past as a Muslim. Not that it matters but it may explain why the "pastor" seems to have missed the part where Jesus said leave unto Caesar what is Caesar's. Thus, he is no preacher but a political operative with a Black Nationalist agenda. Tax him.

Matt, somehow I seriously doubt that if your rabbi continually spouted racist nonsense to the degree that Wright has, you would continue frequenting the congregation. If you did continue to attend that congregation, it would speak volumes about your own character or at the very least would open the door for others to question your character. That is the problem Obama faces. Please don't cheapen progressivism by attempting to explain away the ugliness of the issue.

Matt, had Jack Rothschild importuned the members of the Temple (Hebrew Benevolent Congregation) to take to arms and flush out Klansman from their christian churches after his synagogue (my synagogue) been bombed in 1958, what result?
Obama's Wright problem is that he (and not an unusual thing for any politician) said nothing and did little until others made it a judgment issue.
Reminds me of Spitzer---being very sorry that he was caught, not that he exhibited unprincipled bad judgment.
That ought to be what this brouhaha is about.

"I fail to see what's controversial about Wright's comments"

Um, Wright has stated his belief that AIDS was developed by White Men to exterminate the black race.

Uncontroversial for you?

If this column were in the comments section, I would think it was the work of a troll. Is it even serious? In a few short years, Matthew has become one of the pundits, above the day-to-day prosaic reactions of the laity; too sophisticated to take concerns about "introducing AIDS to kill blacks" or "government sponsored" attacks that kill 3000 of our citizens, Matthew reminisces about his youth, holy days at the local schul, his bar mitzvah, and sees in those recollections what could as well be a young Obama listening to his pastor damning our country.

I can't help but read between the lines that Matthew is quite taken with his ability to rise above the noise of the commoner on this topic and, catching a glimpse of his own quiescent self in the mirror, feel a bit of the glow that comes with self-congratulation at one's own advanced evolution.

I found the tone of the article oleaginous; that is to say, offensive; irrespective of one's views of Obama himself. I can't think of a person I would less enjoy sharing a beer and a conversation with -- he wreaks of moral superiority. What a prig.

Obama is too liberal...

The demographic winter is coming to the US.

Aging workforce.
geocities(dot)com/demographic_crash

Obama is too liberal...

The demographic winter is coming to the US.

Aging workforce.
geocities(dot)com/demographic_crash

It's interesting to see these zombie Democrat phonies trying out one lame-brained excuse after another, to see which one the gullible public will buy. Most of them come down to character assassination, i.e., motive-mongering: "It's a trumped-up issue -- Obama's opponents are really just racists."

Meanwhile, the grovelling jerk doesn't know racism when he hears it screamed from a pulpit.

Barack “Pig in a Poke” Obama hasn’t told us who he is. So we have to infer it from, among other things, the birds he flocks with. And I have to conclude that he and the frothing bigot he listens to are birds of a feather. I know you don’t choose a church to listen to a preacher whose sermons you dislike. So I discount the weasel words and evasions Obama’s come out with so far.

All those young white twerps who love Obama and worship in his “unification” church — they’re little mongrels, saying, “Kick me again!”

Barack “Pig in a Poke” Obama hasn’t told us who he is. So we have to infer it from, among other things, the birds he flocks with.

Yeah, he hasn't told us who he is, other than two best-selling books and hundreds of speeches, including one today specifically about Rev. Wright and race in America. Why won't he be more forthright? Larry Eubank is trying hard to listen!

I think it is time to conduct "background check on Sean Hannity's pastor.

I am sure that are loads of political skeletons hidden there somewhere.

Mukhtar Ainashe

People here don't want to face some very unpleasant realities.
I grew up in Hyde Park/Kenwood on the South Side of Chicago. Obama was my state senator 6 years ago. His children go to school where I and my father went to school. The neighborhood is integrated, with a lot of mixed race people, the surrounding neighbors are all Black African America - the largest continuous all Black African American residential area in North America.

Winning elected offices in all but the Hyde Park Kenwood integrated island (and Republicans, libertarions don't do well here either) entails getting down and dirty to win the support and votes of working poor Black African Americans and the Black underclass. Obama lost a Congressional election to an ex Black Panther and after that he made a very conscious decision to cultivate leaders of the poor, Black masses - and this entails getting tight with White hating, Afro centrist Liberation theology types like Jeremiah Wright. Wright's anti American, hate Whitey theology and politics are not a secret, he has been at it full time since at least the 1970s. It was Obama who sought Wright out, not the other way around.

Do a little research on Jeremiah Wright's Afrocentric Liberation Theology, google James Cone, Steve Sailer has excellent articles on Jeremiah Wright and Obama - then you will not be shocked or surprised when you see some Youtube video of Jeremiah Wright ranting and raving that

" Jesus was a poor Black man in a country occupied by evil rich White Italians - THE ROMANS who controlled everything just like evil rich White people control everything in the world today".

This Rev Jeremiah Wright has attained a large, influential following by pushing a hate whitey, Afrocentric liberation theology. He hasn't been much bothered by the US Constitution's separation of church and state. Wright endorses candidates in his church and says bad, very bad things about political figures he is against, especially Black political leaders who aren't on what he considers the "Black side". Wright has achieved, fame, power and oh yes, he is very, very rich - thanks in part to large tax exempt contributions from his congregation especially Barack Obama - Obama gave over $22K tax exempt in a recent year. But, Wright rants and raves against evil rich White people who supposedly control the world and the US government who invented AIDS to kill off Black people, who force drugs into Black communities - you know, stuff evil Blue Eyed Devils do. Wright rants against evil rich White people, but not rich Black people, as he is a rich Black person who lives in America, but hates America as the source of all evil in the world.

So this is what we are dealing with. These are my neighbors and I know my neighbors well.

It's a cult - highly profitable, with temporary great rewards for those who stay in the cult. But, it certainly is not a cult that promotes peace between the races, so Barack Obama is going to have a rough time presenting this hate Whitey church and his spiritual mentor Rev Wright as a force for racial harmony.

Any specific church gets from a specific pastor exactly what it is willing to pay for. The Cathoic Religion has an official party line, but don't confuse that with what goes in a specific church. If a pastor gets too controversial, relative to the congregation, the donations drop pretty quickly. If that doesn't change the pastor, people quietly leave and go to the church in the next neighborhood.

Barack needed to do the same as soon as he became a US Senator. The broader group of his constituents have to reconcile how he, as a US Snator, can take his daughters to here that garbage. Maybe pretty tough and perhaps to much work.


Comments closed March 28, 2008.

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